Is Rakim possibly the best rapper - ever?

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/expert.html - tangentially relevant.

Kool Keith is not the best anything ever. He's just mentally ill, is all.

I like how he pops a series of "p"s and how it goes with the rhythm in "Let the Rhythm Hit 'Em" (is it "'em"?), my favorite song by Eric B. & Rakim.

i also think slick rick is better but then i think slick rick is better than a lot of things.

the solo stuff is really good-rapping-wise-can't say the music is very memorable.

somebody should say something nice about ice cube.

anyway, he rocks because of the huge number of rave records that sample him

the doc
erick sermon

I wouldn't say so, he's a great storyteller but his flow isn't particularly impressive, it always sounds kinda same.

Big Daddy Kane
GZA
Redman
Big L (well, could've been...)
Scarface

For an entire body of work, Jay-Z is, for me, the most consistent/listenable/enjoyable/what-have-you. There's the typical ILM response someone asked for earlier in the thread.

Big L would definitely be in my Top 5.

I'm not sure that "wordplay" is any more or less of a positive quality than flow or rythmic sensibility. Certain MCs who are famed for their "wordplay" tend to grate in their eagerness to please the teacher (Kweli, anyone?), whereas someone with a totally unique voice (Snoop, Dizzee, Redman) can get away with all kinds of shit. Ludacris, when he's good, is probably the best of both worlds.

Premier can make any MC sound good. He makes good MCs (Guru, Ill Bill fr'instance) sound great. He makes great MCs (like um I dunno NAS) sound fanfuckingtastic. I can't wait to hear the track(s) he produced on Cee-Lo's next album.

I think he can talk about the same topics with consistently interesting vocabulary, never mind his presence, flow, and how enjoyable he is to listen to. Can't be beat on punchlines and he's made at least three excellent albums. If you use Kool Moe Dee's report card for him I think he'd rank near the top of most lists. Though it's a personal thing... I just go back to his stuff, get more out of it, and enjoy a lot of it, more than I can say for a lot of artists. I think the persona he's created makes him more interesting and reveals more as you listen to him. Oh yeah, he's also unbeatable on punchlines. Plus you can argue he got better as he went along. He's a special case. One final thing: he can go from believing he's untouchable to throwing in jokes on tracks and having fun. As you can see, there's something that makes him more interesting to me than most others.

having said that now,
Adam you've just made a real
good case for Jay-Z!

that guy had a streak
that no one has touched on earth:
albums 1-4

sure his later stuff
is more hit and miss, but still
he deserves respect

I really like imagining that there's a bunch of old-school fans huddled together in a dark basement somewhere discussing threats to the hegemony - "OK, what are we gonna do about Cassidy, if he keeps making good records our plans for Old School World Domination are gonna be in some deep shit - Mikhail! dig up some dirt on this Cassidy fellow while I listen to this Ultramagnetic MC's 12" I copped on eBay"

Cassidy is clearly the GOAT.

2pac at number one?!

How is this unbelievable, by the standards he listed?

er, no you don't

he's #'s 1 2 3 4 and 5.

Technique in Rap and Rock

Start with mikestands up rectums. And then work from there.

(You also might wanna check that link.)

By who? And COMPARED to who? Jeff Buckley???

Dude Mannie Fresh was #2 on his list...

Also I still think you are approaching hip-hop with a different system of values (and I'm not talking about supremacy of technique here) than myself. And I don't think its fair to say that anyone who disagrees with you that L'Trimm is one of the best hip-hop acts of the 80s is a technique-obsessed rockist.

Hahaha Rollie OTM.

Whats the diff between saying "this rapper isn't melodic enough" and "this beat doesn't use real instruments"?

Which is obviously not as much fun, or as honest, or as interesting, as kissing the genre's butt as if he was the teacher's pet, right?

If I was "kissing a genre's butt" how could I appreciate Dizzee Rascal?

I was more perturbed by the positive comparison to Rakim, who is a much more distinctive rapper - I'm saying that how distinctive/charismatic a rapper is doesn't NECCESSARILY have anything to do w/ melodicism. It certainly doesn't in Rakim's case.

Of course, Chuck, everyone's opinion is just as valuable as anyone elses. Just like in the article where the elementary school kids reviewed Radiohead tracks, it was cool because it cleverly jabbed at people who think that people need to "know" about something to enjoy it. I don't claim that he has to like Rakim. But I'm arguing that enjoying Rakim is NOT rockist, it is not blind acceptance of some genre's "line of thought," it's that I find Rakim to be a more charismatic and interesting rapper than Royce.

the crack about spaceships = stupid. I listen to Lil Jon and David Banner and T.I. and Rakim and enjoy them all.

Spaceships?

Oh and when I think of rhyme schemes, I think of Mikah 9 or Pharoahe Monch and such, btw.

1. Rakim
2. Nas (Illmatic)
3. Kool G. Rap
4. Canibus
5. Kane

The internet would have to contain infinite space for me to name all the reasons why Rakim is the greatest

the acapella of follow the leader stands on it own as a song: http://www.jamglue.com/tracks/47691-Rakim-eric-b-follow-the-leader-acapella

it seems like Rakim is mostly so widely respected because he was such a game-changer, no? Like, in hip-hop there's kind of a very distinct before/after schism with him in terms of rapping styles (similar to how there's a really clear before/after schism with Run DMC and production styles), but he's hardly the MC I most enjoy listening to or anything like that. I feel like I appreciate him in more of an academic sense than a visceral one. so many guys that came after him have expanded on the foundation he laid down it's hard for me to deny that I prefer them more - they just went farther, have a wider range, regardless of the respect due to the originator.

also maybe this is heresy but um some of Eric B's beats are kinda shitty

1. rakim hits me totally viscerally -- i think the reason he was a game changer was bcuz he was pushing his style in a more naturalistic direction -- emphasis on 'style,' a highly stylized emphasis on realness instead of artifice ... imo the rappers who move the game forward the most are always breaking new ground in terms of visceral affect

2. eric b didnt actually make most of those beats iirc & they dont suck at all

really surprised to see this from shakey mo, smh (shakey mo head)

eh I'm just a guy thinkin baout stuff - Rakim's great and all, I love My Melody and I Ain't No Joke and tons of others, I was just ruminating on why he's afforded so much respect and his historic role seems to play a large part, especially when it's coming from other rappers. It's like how 60s rock guys idolized Chuck Berry or Elvis or whoever - this dude was the groundbreaker, the one who made all this other stuff possible. otoh I was listening to Follow the Leader and thinking jeez is this crappy punched-in string sample really necessary Eric...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFGICfBmtpY

I look at it like this: NO ONE has ever been better at rapping about rapping than Rakim. There are a shit-ton of rappers who have been better at rapping about other stuff than Rakim, but NONE of them have been better at rapping about rapping.

yeah listening to addictive the other week just hit home to me how 'visceral' my reaction to rakim can be--it feels like my heart stops beating when hes rapping. but i like elvis and chuck berry so maybe im just a herb.

and the thing about addictive is that it came 10+ years after the guys supposed peak

and he doesnt sound out of place or dated at all

NO ONE has ever been better at rapping about rapping than Rakim

this makes sense to me

his flow has aged amazingly -- timeless. remember that kanye/premo "classic" track?? he destroys everyone on it

yeah!!! i love him on "classic"

i would like to direct people to this classic poll:

What is the most ridiculous thing in the music video for Rakim's "Guess Who's Back"?

I think this debate misses the mark. G.O.A.T. status is something attained to but never reached. There will always be someone who takes what the greats have done and builds upon it, thus making him/herself greater. Honestly, I think Eminem is a prime example of this. IMO, the only question relevant to Rakim's legacy is: Has any other emcee had more influence on the craft than Ra? Possibly.

Circa 1981, Moe Dee changed the game when he battled Busy Bee and spawned more imitators than his contemporaries (except maybe Melle Mel). Fast forward to 1986; Ra drops Eric B is President/My Melody and every would be rapper adopted his style of craftsmanship. His became the new standard; even Moe Dee acknowledged "a new sheriff in town."

Since Ra, NWA , B.I.G. & others us new standards for content, but by-and-large, the standard for rap lyric structure today is based upon what Ra reintroduced in 1986. Pioneer fans can tell you Spoonie Gee was using similar rhyme schemes as far back as 1983 ("The Big Beat). But most of the best lyricists of the late '80s and throughout the '90s will name Ra as the most influential on their own styles (check out BET documentary about Rakim http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80598858/).

so exactly why did they bother putting Eric B's name on anything?

still find 2/3rds of the beats on Follow the Leader to be terrible tbh

Lol shut up

I am digging the 18th Letter tho, he's good with that trad boom bap style underneath him

https://x.com/fakeshoredrive/status/1734721230534590469?s=20

well..there is finally a new Rakim album, and it's awful. what a bummer.

he produced it himself I guess, the beats are so generic sounding. it's larded down with so many guest appearances that it feels like he's a guest on his own album. very half-assed for something that took so long to come.

Should have had Q-Tip do the whole thing

yeah i heard a few tracks and didn't go any further. whutyagonnado? he can do whatever he wants imo. i can't even think of a classic rapper who has put out a great album at this late date. there probably are some. i liked the new LL tracks that i heard! Rakim should have had LL make his record for him.

Q-Tip produced the LL album, is why I mentioned it :)

ah! i did not know that, haha!

it turns out great minds think alike even when one of them is ignorant of current events!

also w/Q-Tip the last Tribe album was probably the best late period old rapper album I can think of

He did that Danny Brown album too, he's really been on a low-key streak.

it seems like such a no-brainer for younger savvy beatmakers to make a great album for a legend. make them sound good. i would think it would be fun. young producers could battle each other to see who put out the best oldhead album.

All he'd have to do is release the acapellas and call it a contest and a legion of youtube boom bap producers would take it on.

hell yeah!

yeah there are so many currently boom bap producers who could have made a great rakim record, conductor williams, alchemist, preservation, roc marciano, dj muggs, big ghost ltd etc etc

Great lyrical rappers have sometimes shown a disinterest in beat quality. Think of stuff like Immobilarity.

Nas has picked so many awful beats in his career too

would love Rakim to work with Armand Hammer

rakim himself did a lot of the beats/music on the old E.B.& R records. i think. or he says he did anyway.

E.B. being the muscle.

i should really read R's book. i don't know why i haven't.

Just read this interview with Patrick Adams, after hearing someone say on a podcast that he was the reason all the samples were in key and in tune on those Eric B & Rakim records: https://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lectures/patrick-adams

Two things about this; I engineered that and some people would tell you I produced it. I participated. See, I’m not the type who wants to grab all the glory. I mean, it’s obvious Rakim as a writer, you can’t grab any glory out of that. And as a performer, I will tell you, what you heard there he did in one take. As he mentioned in his lecture, he would write in the studio. He would write, say, eight lines and then record it, eight lines, record it. Then he would take it home and he’d come in the next night, and he’d do it in one take and he used to blow us away. I got to tell you, one of the greatest experiences in life – and think about this – can you imagine night after night being the first person and the only person to hear that shit? That shit used to fuck my head up. And he was always on.

Anyway, when you listen to that again, as I know you will someday, you’ll notice that there’s reverb on the bass. There’s a room on the bass and there’s a different room sound on the tom toms and the foot. This is what I’m talking about. I mean, that’s creativity. Back then most people would use a drum machine and the samples were flat and they sound horrible. One of the reasons Paid In Full sounds so good was my perception of – that don’t sound the way drums are supposed to sound. Drums are supposed to have this meat to them, this reflection from the walls and whatnot. That was probably a major contribution of mine, the fact that all the samples on that album are in pitch. Most rap albums in the middle ‘80s, the samples were in different keys and it’ll hurt your ears after a while. It just was sonically sick. So Eric B. and Rakim, they allowed me to pitch their samples up or down until they were in relative keys. And then I mixed the album.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

But how did you actually mic Rakim’s voice? You did something a little bit different.

PATRICK ADAMS

Yes, see, we have an easy way of speaking into the mics. It’s not popping. Anybody in here who’s an engineer knows, when you have somebody who’s right up in the mic and their projection is powerful, all you’re going to hear is ‘pop, pop, pop.’ It was actually out of frustration. One night – well, the first night, because we would have gotten nothing done otherwise – I said, I’ll use a bass drum mic. So, I went and I took the RE20 out the closet and I said, “Here, talk into this.” Because, it didn’t matter – compression, limiter – nothing helped. I put that RE20 there, he got up on the mic and, “Yeah, pump up the bass.” The bottom of his voice just came right up and the rest of his voice was right in your face. And I put a compressor on that. That was wonderful and that’s how we arrived at that. Not even Rush Limbaugh uses an RE20. Heaven help me.

there's also rumors that Marley Marl, the late Paul C and Large Professor ghost produced for them

anyways these new beats rakim made are terrible

it blew my mind when i found out via the internet that Rakim was my age. when i was a kid listening to him i thought he was, like, 20 years older than me. or 20 eons older than me. when i bought those records in 1987 and 1988 i was...19 or 20. and so was he! unbelievable. i could barely get out of bed when i was 20.

he did seem like an old soul

as well as Patrick Adams et al (eg 45 King, Stevie Blass Griffin) on Follow The Leader, Marley Marl ghost-produced much or all* of Paid In Full, and most of Don't Sweat The Technique was started by Paul C. and completed by Large Pro after his murder.

*Eric has argued that if he suggested a single sample, then he was the producer. "Marlon has not gotten a dollar in publishing and never has taken us to court to get publishing and he is not the producer... I took (Over Like A Fat Rat by Fonda Rae, prod. Bob Blank) to Marley Marl's house in Queensbridge and paid Marley Marl to be the engineer. That's why he's not a producer; that's why he is not getting publishing. I brought the music. I just couldn't work the equipment because that's not what I did."

Eric has argued that if he suggested a single sample, then he was the producer. "Marlon has not gotten a dollar in publishing and never has taken us to court to get publishing and he is not the producer

gee i wonder if there's any other reason someone wouldn't want to take Eric B to court

Large Pro, also not credited as a producer or receiving publishing:

“What I gained from workin’ with Eric B. & Rakim was just, you gotta be sharp with your business. You gotta make sure you got your business right. Make sure you look out for the people who’s comin’ up, up under you. Make sure you’re lookin’ out for them. The young kids that’s comin’ up, you gotta make sure you’re lookin’ out for them, that you’re not trying to take advantage of them or anything like that. That’s what I learned.”

He was 17 when he worked on the album (completing Paul C.'s tracks, doing two solo, and drum programming for the Rakim-produced No Omega, looks like.)

It is kinda funny to think that just bringing a James Brown record to the studio counts as producing, but that did seem to be common practice in the early days, even for Tribe and De La before they owned samplers. They'd produce demos at home doing pause tapes or whatever, then bring the records to a studio and the engineer would spend all day putting everything together using whatever crazy methods they could.

Any time Jay-Z is credited as a co-producer on his songs, it's because he brought the sample to the guy who made the beat, that seems to be a semi-commom practice in rap.

gee i wonder if there's any other reason someone wouldn't want to take Eric B to court

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, August 1, 2024 2:03 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

the supreme court’s recent decision on presidential immunity

haha

lol voodoo

Rakim has a free show in Staten Island this Saturday at Stapleton Waterfront Park - he'll be joined by special guests like Joe Ski Love ("Pee Wee’s Dance"!)

https://cityparksfoundation.org/events/rakim-positive-k-sweet-tee-joe-ski-love-nice-smooth-dj-chubby-chub-hosted-by-video-music-box-ralph-mcdaniels/

I totally want to go to this, but it looks like a pain in the ass to get to if you're coming in from the Bronx, Brooklyn or Queens.

damn I would go just to hear 'pee wee's dance' alone

Yeah, very tempting, but it would be a long subway ride, then a ferry ride, then a bus ride each way, and there's the free Raekwon show in Brooklyn at the same time.

Interesting interview with the producer of “don’t sweat the technique” who never really got credit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaF3TUXPIB0

My fav part is the extended celebration of Larry smith

The interviewers are kind of annoying however