Was 2003 really the year that pop "broke"?

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Pitchfork suggestsin its Top 50 Singles (separate thread: singles for 2003 vs Pitchfork) that this was the year that the indie rockers started listening to pop and hip-hop, but there's part of me that doubts the universality of that statement. I mean, it was certainly true for me personally, but I always chalked it up to a) my own increasing boredom with indie rock, b) my discovery of ILM in February, and its ensuing effects on my interests, and c) accidentally hearing "Cry Me a River" on the radio late last year. And it was certainly true for Pitchfork's editorial direction, with its new singles column. But was this a certifiable indie "trend"?

In his intro, Ryan says that file-sharing is responsible: "Freed from the careful decision-making that comes with $12 purchases, we can now easily branch out beyond the genres we've always loved and discover the inherent worth in all of them." But two points: a) If file-sharing has been around for a few years now, why would it suddenly cause a pop explosion in 2003?, and b) There's always been a way to freely access pop and hip-hop: it's called commercial radio. I downloaded pop songs this year, but only to put them on party mixes. Most of the time, if I wanted to hear "Crazy in Love," I'd just flip between Power 92, B96, KISS 103.5, and WGCI until those horn bursts came in.

At the same time, last year, when I only listened to college radio and NPR, I managed to completely miss "Hot in Herre," despite it being the smash feel-good hit of the summer. This year, I can't imagine getting to the end of the year and never hearing "Hey Ya!" or even "Crazy in Love" -- almost everyone I know was talking about them. Ideas?

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Prevelence of broadband connections. Death of the hipster. No one wants to dress up like a redneck in order to be cool? Oh they do.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Utopia! Utopia!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't buy that at all. It seems like the pop boom was starting to die down in 2003, at least from what I've observed.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"Hey Ya" and "Crazy In Love" both >>>> "Hot In Herre."

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

and Jesus wept.

what is it with the constant referencing of PfM here!?

Maybe the snobs there have been avoiding pop, Christ on a bike, what a silly idea about p2p.

― conan (worrysome-man), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.scenemagazine.com/framepages/content.lasso?-database=site_news&-layout=scene_news&-response=content.lasso&record=SN-00190&-search

(mind the awful squishy picture and the weird headline)

― mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

He had won the victory over himself; he loved Big Brother.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

"Thing Song" >>> "Hey Ya" >>> "Hot In Herre" >>> "Crazy In Love"

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I remember reading Beck interviews ca. 1999 where he talks about being a big fan of R. Kelly. Maybe this is all Midnite Vultures' fault.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"Thong Song"

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I like them old-fashion draws

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

(i kind of agree, but strictly from a hipster embracing pop perspective and NOT from a mainstream embracing pop perspective because that's impossible by definition!!)

― mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

They'll all be listening to dance music next.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i think this MIGHT be true for a lot of people in the States, but i think the equivalent happened in the UK back in '99 with Britney's 'Baby One More Time'

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Was 2003 really the year that pop broke "Pitchfork"?
ILX has mentalism riot rest of the world yawns.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

the idea of pop 'breaking' (into what? indie credibility? haha!) this or any year is so insanely dumb it's wonderful. like, yeah, 2003, pop's getting written about by indie kids, it's finally made it!!!!

― pete b. (pete b.), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

what is it with the constant referencing of PfM here!?

This isn't so much a "Pitchfork thread," it's something I've been thinking about for a while on my own -- but that list today gave me an additional impulse to ask the question.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I know, I think the term "broke" is funny in this context, but that's how people are talking!

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks to the iPod we now actually listen to music we like instead of just buying cool records HOORAY!!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes yes I agree since I got mine I have been listening to Astor Piazzolla on repeat ohnoohnoohno I don'tevenownaniPodkillmeplease.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

nicole might be right here. obviously pop didnt break 'in the mainstream' in 2003 as such, but perhaps it did break in alt.circles. this would make sense as popular music that breaks in alt.circles usually has a time lag from when it first breaks. there could be any number of reasons for this, but its an oft repeated scenario

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

2003: The Year We Took Our Heads Out of Our Asses

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I think indie rockers/punks have been listening to hip hop for a long, long time....I mean weren't Rick Rubin and the Beastie Boys proof of that??

Also, wrt indie rockers suddenly joining hands and deciding to love pop music altogether now.....I think this might be a perception that could be slightly skewed our ILM-centric view of the world....also, you assume that indie rockers have never liked pop singles prior to 2003, which I don't think is true either.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

jaymc i think 'broke' is maybe meant to explain pitchfork's broken paradigm, rather than the notion that pop somehow got more popular, which is silly

i do think that 2003 yielded more of a certain type of pop crossover that wouldn't have been par for the course five years ago tho

i think bootlegs are probably more responsible for this than file sharing

― mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(xpost charltonlido)

― mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

(I don't own an iPod either. Should I get one?)

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

bootlegs like "The Best Bootlegs in the World Ever"....(if that's what you mean I would definitely agree with you)....

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

The only thing is, do we really have proof of some kind of indie rockers-embracing pop phenomenon outside of the fact that Pitchfork decided to do more rap reviews and added We Are The World....

it kinda seems like when Jesse Jackson says something and lots of people naturally assumes he speaks for a nation of African Americans (haha Pitchfork is the Jesse Jackson of indie rock)....

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

iPod! Are you making with the funny stuff? Only gazillionaries can afford that shit. I don't think it's v productive lumping Outkast in with pop in this sense.

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I think this might be a perception that could be slightly skewed our ILM-centric view of the world...

Except I guess my point is it seems like other people, like Pitchfork, are beginning to share that perception.

also, you assume that indie rockers have never liked pop singles prior to 2003, which I don't think is true either.

Right, but as someone who was exclusively into indie rock, post-rock, and some electronic stuff from 1996-2002, my ignorance of pop singles from that period is staggering.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique Outkast is #1 in the Billboard charts currently.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I think lumping Outkast in with pop is exactly the phenom that may or may not be happening.
Pop is polyglot.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

and I think it's Pop that has sort of broken open lately with a much wider range of artists/styles/gimmicks.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"Broke" is my own word, incidentally. It's not just Pitchfork's own "broken paradigm," though -- they talk about it as a trend in indie circles. I guess part of what I wonder is whether Ryan had a pop conversion himself, hired some new writers to reflect his new interest, and then acted as though it was happening all over the place. (Sort of like how the blurb for the Kish Kash review insinuated that the first two Jaxx records were unbelievably bad, instead of admitting that no, you were just wrong then.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"Pork Your Body" > "Thing Song" > "Thong Song"

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

1991: The Year Punk Broke

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique Outkast is #1 in the Billboard charts currently.

Yeah, as of last week at least, "Hey Ya!" was #1 and "The Way You Move" was #2. Amazing!

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique Outkast is #1 in the Billboard charts currently.

Sure, but -- oh fuck. Right. It's pop, yes. But not pop. Not in the sense the original poster means, I don't think. I think the innaresting thing is how 'pop' (Beyonce, Britney) has absorbed so much from 'hip-hop' (allowing for lots of porous membranes etc etc etc), and this is the 'it's okay to like' phenom that JT is the perfect example of.

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

The only thing is, do we really have proof of some kind of indie rockers-embracing pop phenomenon outside of the fact that Pitchfork decided to do more rap reviews and added We Are The World....

I'd guess that the traditional indie audience is not really embracing pop yet - a good proportion of the indie kids I know will still say they love the Neptunes or Timbaland rather than Justin or even Kelis, whereas the ones who WILL embrace pop are usually the ones who always have.

(xpost with Enrique, exactly)
Also - note distinction between R&B and hip-hop, which is being embraced by Pitchfork et al, and teen manufactured pop. Even with her 'mature' image I don't see Xtina making an indie kid's year-end list any time soon, and as for people like Britney/Rachel Stevens/Girls Aloud, forget it...

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

1991: The Year Punk Broke

Yeah, that's what I was referencing, obviously. (I didn't mean to imply that I was the first one to use the word in this context -- just that Pitchfork didn't use it in their article.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I think indie/alt fans probably have been listening to more pop, but that didn't start in 2003 - I think at least a couple of years ago. And beyond that, I can't remember a time when alt-america wasn't listening to at least some hip-hop.

However, if you look at indie rock over the past ten years, there does appear to be a gradual path towards "pop, at least in some quarters. Start with indie embrace of IDM, post-rock in the 90s, to emergence of "dance-punk", and to bands that straddle line between dance and indie (from Air to Manitoba), and in 2003 Pitchfork is actually giving props to top 40 songs.

If you want a musical precedent, I think My Bloody Valentine is perfect. But in truth, I think Loveless was a little before its time. Had it come out in 1997, I think we might have noticed an indie/pop alliance much sooner. (ha, instead we got OK Computer, which ironically might have set this back a bit).

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

My Bloody Valentine? WTF?! The world just melted, you are all completely fucking insane, and I claim my £5.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I do use the word "pop" in a much more inclusive way than some people. For me, it's inclusive of commercial R&B and hip-hop -- basically what I hear on certain radio stations in Chicago like Power 92 (urban) and B96 (nominally "top 40," but basically "urban" with white DJs).

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus, alot of "indie rock" has always been pop, just maybe from a different era....like Ted Leo would be pop in the 70s, ditto for tons of 60s inspired Beach Boys type stuff....

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

(that xpost was for Enrique)

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

But in truth, I think Loveless was a little before its time. Had it come out in 1997, I think we might have noticed an indie/pop alliance much sooner

Say what???? Can you explain this for sober readers?

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Can someone explain to me how Beyonce/Destiny's Child has ever been anything but hip-hop-influenced R&B?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Market position -- I'd agree with yr description musically.

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

(I mean, beyond the "they charted in the pop charts, dummy!" argument because I can figure that out by myself, thanks.)

(haha xpost)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I go even further than you jaymc, allowing basically anything to become pop. Toby Keith, White Stripes, 50 Cent, these were all pop acts this year.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I go even further than you jaymc, allowing basically anything to become pop. Toby Keith, White Stripes, 50 Cent, these were all pop acts this year.

So pop=what charts? I don't find this very useful as a category, being based on sales rather than other qualities. I can't think of a better one right this minute.

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Say what???? Can you explain this for sober readers?

Haha, hey I'm at work, I have to be sober!

What I'm saying is that for an early example of alt/pop crossover, look at Loveless. I think "Soon" is an obv precedent for bands like Manitoba or Four Tet, BUT I think the album was released during a time before a pop/indie debate (like the one discussed in this thread) would have occurred. I think in a different era, Loveless might have had a bigger impact on the sound of music both underground and overground - and might have been more clearly seen as a sign of things to come.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, Huck, by my definition, 50 Cent surely is. I actually just erased a post that was going to amend my original (completely subjective) definition, something to the effect of [Pop = Hip-Hop/R&B/Top 40 - (any overlap with Alt-Rock + Country)]. But whatever, that's just me.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique, you have to remember that the charts in the U.S. are based on radio airplay much more than in the U.K. I'm talking specifically about radio formats, which are also much more niche-oriented.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

But Loveless did have a big impact on indie rock at the time - it was called shoegaze!

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

for an early example of alt/pop crossover, look at Loveless. I think "Soon" is an obv precedent for bands like Manitoba or Four Tet

Ermmmm. Four Tet is nowhere near pop, though. Neither is 'Loveless' -- it's certainly further away than any late eighties indie I can think of. I mean it got to number shit in the charts.

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

When will people come to terms with the fact that Four tet sound fuck all like MBV? As for alt.pop crossover, um, MBV never sold that many nor had hit singles. In the UK The Stone Roses were close to it before self destruction, as were The Smiths, and then OOOOH Nirvana and Oasis.

Double X.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not even necessarily sales. It's how it impacts, where it enters the culture.

I mean, trying to define parameters of pop musically? Angels, pinhead to thread. Pop, now more than ever, is completely absorbant. It's whatever sells, whatever sticks, whatever makes ya ass shake.

There are conventions that people follow when they're trying to make POP POP, but what actually becomes relevant, in as much as it's recognizable and relevancy and recognition have become neraly indsitnguishable cogs of the same gear, is open.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i dont know, i think sales are a very useful arbiter, though probably shouldnt be used as the only arbiter. i think exposure, and are as important, radio/tv rotation etc. there needs to be some broader connection with populace, zeitgeist etc. some band with huge fanbase that catapults one record into charts and then drops out again, can that really be counted?

i kind of like the american model rather than the uk model in this respect, being not only sales based. theres something about a sales based model that doesnt really record deeper penetration into publics mind, no accounting for greater inroads etc

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Especially now everyone nicks everythign off the internet.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique, exactly - and I think it would have fared much better on the charts had it been released later.

Matt, I'm not saying it didn't have an immediate impact. I'm just saying that it might have had a greater impact at a different time.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

some band with huge fanbase that catapults one record
into charts and then drops out again, can that really be counted?

that has to be counted. and how often does that happen?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

with regards to what charlton said, the 99p single thing has really muddied the chart waters also

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i think there is some truth in this (x-post:this=the thread subject)
obviously "pop" has always been popular,and pointing this out is fairly pedantic
in the last year though,there are a lot of people who have started liking various pop tracks,even if they are just saying that its the neptunes they like rather than justin timberlake...
a lot of people i know who may have only been into indie,hip hop or dance music got into pop in some form through songs like crazy in love,rock your body,etc

― robin (robin), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

gARETH otm -- i THINK A DEFINITION OF POP HAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT oh caps i kill you TV POSITIONING, RADIO STUFF, ZEITGEIST...

LOVELESS = SUCCESS IN 97? HMM. THAT's when i bought it. But success is bloddy hard work and I can't see KS ever making the effort (I don't approve of this set-up, btw).

with regards to what charlton said, the 99p single thing has really muddied the chart waters also

Not in my HMV -- what's 99p??????

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i have previously thought 'if its in the charts its pop', but im not so sure now, if there is no wider connection does it count? no one hears it outside fanbase, doesnt get played etc?

what about brooks and dunn? do they chart? they sell a lot of records?

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

they are or at least were huge.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know if they ever crossed over onto the pop charts though, but they are pop.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

so they are pop, despite not being on the pop charts?

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Are Opera Babes/Andre Bocelli pop?

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

they are popera

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

they are pop because they sell as many t-shirts as they do records. because you can say "Brooks & Dunn" to a random person on the street (at least in NorAm) and they'll understand. They are pop because they've appeared on King of the Hill. They are pop because one of them has the first name Kix.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

They are The Greatest Classical Anthems In The World... Ever!

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick, I'm not saying MBV sound "fuck all" like Four Tet, I'm really referring to them being of a similar cloth. I hear them having similar connections to pop/rock from the 60s and 70s, with a dedication to pretty ambitious production, having no qualms about embracing dance music, yet NOT enjoying massive popular success. It's almost like an inverse of bands like Pink Floyd or the Beatles (or Radiohead!), who followed similar lines, yet were extremely popular.

I'm not saying Loveless is the only example of this happening. I think Stone Roses is a good example too, but to me it seems like their impact hasn't been as great.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

this is what i thought though, they are pop because of the exposure, because of the zeitgeist, because of recognition, because people know who they are. because of all the things that getting to number #16 on the charts doesnt necessarily bring?

i just wondered if you agreed that it was as much about exposure and other stuff as record sales?

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Lots of country acts (I don't know enough about Brooks & Dunn to include them) do okay on the Hot 100, though: I rarely see a Toby Keith song in the Top 20, but he's frequently in the Top 40. But this is driven almost exclusively by sales and by country radio/CMT, which is very easy to avoid if you're not into it.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

TSR have had a much bigger impact than MBV, seriously -- on a whole crew of rubbish sixties nostalgists from the Charlatans to the Thrills.

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i think anyone or anything can BECOME pop - i've cited examples before such as 'Flat Beat'. but i suppose i would never say Iron Maiden were pop. pop means two things for me - one, an attitude that reflects in the work (not how it's made) e.g. a song with a catchy hook, memorable lyrics and nice melody but also the statistical aspect and baggage of that work (where 'Flat Beat' comes in - 'Flat Beat' was always more likely to be considered a 'pop tune' rather than a cool underground dance track - but perhaps that's because people first knew it from a TV advert featuring a character who also became a temporary pop cultural icon of sorts)

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

So, are Ocean Colour Scene pop, then?

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"Sexy Boy" by Air to thread.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

And "Love Shack".

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

And all Motown and Stax singles.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

stone roses had a bigger impact in the uk, but probably lesser impact in the us i would say. though even now, the stone roses impact is actually looking a lot more temporary than i would have said even 2 years ago. what they impacted on is also retracting into the distance

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

And "Killer" by Adamski.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

And especially "Groove Is In The Heart".

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

yes i agree. I think that in terms of yr average music fan (i.e. not the obsessed lunatics here), chart placement is a non-starter. people don't particularly care about where something places, they just like it and are glad to hear it.

bigass xpost

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

does PF "The great thing about music right now is that listeners don't have to be "staunch" anymore." = Ewing "Year by year, the ‘celestial jukebox’ becomes more of a reality, and we are all dilettantes now." http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/2002.html

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Staunch listeners are always savage little fascists.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

< /ridiculous sweeping hyperbole>

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

listeners were never that "staunch" to begin with. if they were, we'd still just have basic jazz, str8 blues, hayseed country, and easy listening.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think I can emphasize enough how in the U.S. the antithesis to "indie" is "anything that's on the radio." The fact that I actively listen to commercial radio, be it hip-hop, pop, alt-rock, whatever, is something to be scorned by some of my more true-blue indie-rock/punk friends.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

(I'm not sure what that was in reference to, exactly, but I'm getting the impression that a lot of our trouble in defining what exactly "pop" is has to do with U.S./U.K. differences, one of which is how radio works, what gets played and on what stations, etc.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

The bit in that article that's important (I reckon) isn't the dilettante thing but this -

"[This] list specifically and intentionally lacks authority. No critic anymore can keep up with everything, and the non-specialist should stop pretending to – we are lucky enough to live in a pop world where by typing “soca 2002” or “microhouse 2002” or “dancehall 2002” or anything 2002 into a file-sharer’s search function will get you two or three fabulous tracks at least. There is so much going on, for me to say these were the 100 ‘Best Tracks’ of 2002 would be as stupid as walking along a beach for an hour and declaring that you’d found the ‘100 Best Seashells’. These are just songs that I enjoyed and I’d recommend you download. I wasn’t an expert on music this year; I was just a traveler, wandering around, taking the odd note."

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I like that take, Tico.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, fo shizzle, but that's the nature of influence -- it wanes. same will happen with MBV's influence (if such a thing exists -- I mean, there ain't much chart music to my knowledge with a marked MBV influence).

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Ain't much? There's absolutely NONE AT ALL!!!

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

TSR have had a much bigger impact than MBV, seriously -- on a whole crew of rubbish sixties nostalgists from the Charlatans to the Thrills.

Right, well, I'm mostly talking about today. Again, I think MBV's impact on pop music (as a whole) would have been helped had it been released at a different time.

And Nick, re: Groove is the Heart, I don't think this is the same concept. Deee-Light had basses and guitars, but they weren't really a "rock" band or indie rock or whatever. If you wanted to call me out, you should have picked Jesus Jones.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

people need to stop thinking about if bands are pop or not and just think about whether their songs were

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

STEVEM OTM

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't mention it for that fact, Dom, but rather cos it was a huge crossover hit that few people from any camp could resist.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Taking sides: "Groove is in the Heart" vs "Hey Ya".

I already know who is going to win this.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:49 (twenty-two years ago)

what abt the aphex twin. windowlicker made the charts.

(I also thought 'soon' made the charts in the UK too)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Herbie Hancock.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Aphex Twin is pretty key in any discussion about an overt indie embrace of pop.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i have a feeling that the Tremelo EP made the top 30, but that Soon never charted as a single

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

You've confused pop and dance there, I fear.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

DP OTM RE STEVEM OTM

I think this evident by the late 90s at least. I remember when Alanis Morrissette was touring her "second" album and audiences were largely indifferent to the new arrangements of her hits and the slightly different direction of her newer material. I remember reading things like "what did Alanis do to fall out of favour with the fans who ate up her last album?"
When really they were never fans of HER anyway. They liked her songs. A few rare artists can build a cult of personality, but for the most part, pin-ups and t-shirts aside, nobody gives a crap about "you, the artist."

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

(not saying Aphex is pop) However, I think his music sparked an interest in non-rock stuff, just one of those things that made it hard to stay in cocoon, and especially opening doors for many people to electronic music (and dance).

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

The hipster's ironic fetishisation of 80s pop music has bled into an appreciation of contemporary pop music because of aesthetic similarities i.e. blame Justin and Jacko.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

This is conjecture, of course.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

indie taste went dance
pop = dance (everyone likes to dance)
hence
indie taste went pop

nick southall is "on the mark"

― ddd, Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

ps. no one wears "techno sucks" toques anymore!!! wtf!!!

― ddd, Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Has movement in the opposite direction been discussed here (i.e. pop being influenced by indie)? I know that one of the most jaw-dropping, head-spinning moments I had this year was accidentally tuning in to a Bic Runga webcast and finding her in the middle of covering Royal Trux.

― dlp9001, Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(xpost) Nick: Perhaps not far off, though.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

who is Bic Runga?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I realised as I was listening to Kate Bush.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Bic Runga = singer songwriter on Columbia. Asian New Zealander doing Tori Amos/Jewel, as far as I can tell. Reviewed in MOJO, but didn't break as well as Columbia probably wishes.

― dlp9001, Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

The hipster's ironic fetishisation of 80s pop music has bled into an appreciation of contemporary pop music

I'm so fuzzy on what makes a hipster. If I unironically say that "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" is one of the hottest beats I've ever heard and probably will ever hear, am I still cool?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick may have a point, but i dunno - aesthetic similiarities never stopped indie kids from hating on that which claims what they like/fetishize as a primary influence before.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, yes. We reviewed her here, at the daily I quasi-write for. I'll dig that out.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

indie taste went dance
pop = dance (everyone likes to dance)
hence
indie taste went pop

This is another thing to consider. Not everyone has always liked to dance - the indie kids have (been projected as having) that 'fear of the centre of the body' thing, ergo out of touch with physical, spatial self, ergo dislike of sport/dancing/etcetera. Indie kids get into IDM as it is seen as cutting edge, avante garde, etcetera, head music. Prevelence of aesthetic similarities between modern pop and IDM (Timbaland, obv.) causes indie kid to go "wow! - this stuff is innovative too - should I like innovative stuff? my position thus far has always been on the borderline, the leftcentricity, frontier (didn't call it 'new wave' for nuffin') music, and yet this mainstream music embodies many of the properties I have been seeking? ergo should I like it?" This causes all kinds of problems until the indie says "yes" and starts dancing. Of course The Rapture or !!! help, as do El-P and Can Ox probably, and suddenly this link between pre-adolescent awareness appreciation of pure physical sensation in music and genuine, heartfelt appreciation is uncovered - after all the indie has always been about being real and honest and authentic and it is inauthentic to deny oneself pleasure simply for (what?) reasons? Is it not?

Again, conjecture, and this time it is rambling and stupid conjecture too.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I think a more interesting development is the way hip-hop has made it OK for indie/hipster kids to like sports.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus decreasing interest in politics from indies means ethical/political objectiosn are over-ridden by aesthetic ones, which are also in turn over-ridden as said above.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

You mean like actual sports, like football and that? Because in the UK what made it OK for indie kinds to like (i.e. talk about the fact they already liked) sport was the football fanzine thing in the mid - late 80s.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Huh?

most indie-lovin' people I grew up with played basketball since they were kids. some even played football. everybody loves sports. sports is the new sex.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I could see that Aphex Twin connection, dleone. If you consider that Aphex made synths and drum machines safe again for indie fans, that might have led directly into an appreciation of 80s synth-pop. Then it's a short step from that to Justin Timberlake, etc.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I've not really experienced that, Keith, as music and sport have always been quite big things in my life and quite linked. I guess you had Morissey being anti-sport (apart from boxing) but The Stone Roses, Oasis, The Verve were all big football fans, and vocally so. Instances of depression being less prevelent among people who engage in physical activity leading to people attempting to avoid melancholy by playing basketball? or basketball being cool because of the fashion links with hip hop? Why do the indies like hip hop? is it the same as the punk's fascination with reggae, i.e. the white middle clash fetishisation of working class/underclass protest/street/urban music?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Hopkins OTM. Plus "I Am The Resurrection" played over Gazza making Colin Hendry look like a hippo in 1996.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

like that one Jay-Z/Nas Throwdown thread where I think Blount was jumping in on the sports arguments and goading Ethan for not caring about sports?

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

"most indie-lovin' people I grew up with played basketball since they were kids."

Dunno, maybe I'm older? I remember the early 90s as a total nerd v. jock world. Lots of indie kids still watched sports, but they were less likely to admit it.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I think indie/alt fans probably have been listening to more pop
like DUH. esp a few yrs back when they suddenly destinys child.
pop = dance (everyone likes to dance)=punk

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean discovered destinys child.

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I graduated h.s. in 95, but maybe my neighbourhood was different from yours.
I went to a fairly small high school, so there weren't really enough people to segregate jocks vs. nerds vs. stoners vs. band geeks vs. whatever.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I graduated in 87, and all the stuff I'm talking about it post- high school, post-college even, when people are re-making their identities in new cities/scenes, so even if they grew up with sports, now they were all about surf music 7 inches or whatever. It was dumb, cause everybody knew deep down that obsessing about music and obsessing about sports was pretty much the same mental activity.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure indie-rock fans have historically been any more snobby or closed-minded about Top 40 music than other devotees of semi-popular or no-longer-popular music. Jazz fans, for example, tend to be dismissive of blatently commericial music in the same way. This stuff goes in cycles. When I was a teenager in the '80s, only the most self-consciously contrary indie rockers could deny Prince and Madonna.

I sometimes still use the term "pop music" in its most general sense, which really only excludes most classical music, which generally depends on public and private funding to survive, and the purest folk music (by which I mean, to use American examples, Appalachian fiddlers and American Indian drum groups, but not acoustic-guitar-playing singer-songwriters such as Greg Brown).

― dylan (dylan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the phrase "suddenly destinys child" sums up a lot, actually.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 18 December 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

"They're really sexy. If I buy their CD, one of them might sleep with me. Failing that, there'll be pictures in the sleeve. I'm fed up of not having sex."

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"also, girls move their bodies funny when these songs play. I like it when girls move their bodies funny. Sometimes I move my body funny."

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"Look at me, ma, ah'm dancin'!!!"

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"cut that out or you'll get the clap!"

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

That Pitchfork intro is flat-out craziness. So "the indie community" (who they?) have started downloading Beyonce songs (which they learned about where?) because the only way you could hear "Say My Name" was to buy the full CD?

There's also a difference between "rock music" and "commercial pop" I'd like to hear explained, and am I correct in translating "When shit's free, there's no guilt for pleasure" as "I'll enjoy myself as long as I don't have to pay for it?"

That said, cut 'em some slack, it's the end of the year, when we all make silly generalizations about culture based solely on the fact that the earth's made it all the way around the sun again.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Keith OTM, especially in the last remark.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

my yr-end top ten list intros are always like this: "well, here's some records I like that I think deserve to have their names in print one more time, fuck you"

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

That's how you do it! The "fuck you" is a nice touch.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey, Keith. I liked your three-way discussion with Sasha Frere-Jones and Rob Sheffield over at Slate. Kinda surprised there hasn't been a thread about it yet.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

link

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I didn't really get the download thing myself. But I did download a lot of these songs.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks o. nate

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Hi Keith, you have a new fan.
it's cramped, a little slow-moving, and always just a little
less fun than I expect.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 18 December 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

O. Nate, there was a thread about it! But I guess it didn't really take off as I might have hoped: The 2003 Slate Music Club

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Since "Cry Me a River" has been mentioned here, I wonder how y'all feel about dating it. Discounting when some rock critics and teh the classical critic frmo the New Yorker "discovered" it, when was the average teenager most impacted by its presence on the radio and elsewhere (sock hops, malt shops, etc.)? I keep thinking of it as a December 2002 song, but I really can't remember when it peaked.

― dylan (dylan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Viva indie rock!

JT still sucks!

― dieblucasdie (dieblucasdie), Thursday, 18 December 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"Cry Me a River" peaked on the Hot 100 in February, but at least around here, it was getting just as much airplay in December, so personally, I think of at as a 2002 song.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I blame single-orientated retro bands. They made it okay for 'indie' fans to be publicly shallow enough to enjoy disposable, plastic radio garbage. Besides, it's probably "un-patriotic" for Americans to diss mainstream radio these days.

Although, I do like Hey Ya, but I don't know a single person who doesn't. It probably (read: hopefully) marks the peak of this particular fad, and it will decrease from here.

― Stupid (Stupid), Thursday, 18 December 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know a single person who doesn't.

Fiddo to thread!

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 December 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, as of last week at least, "Hey Ya!" was #1 and "The Way You Move" was #2. Amazing!

holy shit! why am i in france?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 18 December 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Since "Cry Me a River" has been mentioned here, I wonder how y'all feel about dating it.

Dating it? I want to marry it and have a hundred of its babies.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 18 December 2003 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe this deserves its own thread, maybe it doesn't bear discussing at all, but why (and since when) is not liking to dance viewed as some kind of hideous character flaw or mortal sin?

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 18 December 2003 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

RE: "dating it."

Ha! Maybe what happened is we started dating it in late 2002, and consumated the relationship in early '03.

― dylan (dylan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

(and since when) is not liking to dance viewed as some kind of hideous character flaw or mortal sin?

esp. since I bet the average ILMer doesn't do a whole lot of it.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 18 December 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I used to but the old joints aren't as rubbery as they once were.

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Thursday, 18 December 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

London, you used to do mean Lindy Hop back in the day!

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 18 December 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

It'll be interesting to see if more pazz & jopp pollees actualy submit a singles list year--might be a good gauge if a pop "breakthrough" has occurred among critics.

― dylan (dylan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

An early hero in the fight for pop recognitoin: Gilbert Seldes. His 1924 book "The Seven Lively Arts" is a great celebration of vaudeville, movies, jazz, Chaplin, etc.

― dylan (dylan), Thursday, 18 December 2003 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Do people listen to the lyrics of Hot in Herre?

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"Was 2003 the year society 'broke'?"

Seriously guys...talking about sports and pop music breaking through into indie sensibilities? I'm sorry, but I find this all hilarious.

-expects the "Was 2005 the year conservatism 'broke'?" thread in a couple years-
Alan

― Alan Conceicao, Friday, 19 December 2003 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

this now makes me think of a prediction for 2004:

indie band makes ironic tribute to Reagan, accidentally sparks wave of republican indie pop/garage that sweeps America's faux-proletariat MOC kids

― Alan Conceicao, Friday, 19 December 2003 01:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Am i the only one who thought 'Cry me a River' was/is a big stinking pile of poo? I like some of JT'S lascivious numbers but that one never engaged me. It astonishes me that ppl get so turned on by it.

― pete s, Friday, 19 December 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Pop existed before hip-hop. In fact, it existed before rock too.

After 1955, pop has never ever been as completely dominant as it was before "Rock Around The Clock"

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 19 December 2003 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

It astonishes me that this bad pop trend is taken seriously.

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I am taking it seriously, really hoping that it will end soon.

Particularly for the case of pop, which used to be a wonderful genre before the mid 80s.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 19 December 2003 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

what is it with the constant referencing of PfM here!?

"oooohuuuhh, your my one and only..."

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 19 December 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Republican garage rock has existed ever since Ted Nugent started out in the 60s...

And really noisy rawk fits well for republican males because they tend to use it as kind of an evidence they aren't "faggots"

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 19 December 2003 01:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Did the "I can like Stephen Malkmus and Justin Timberlake" trend start before pitchfork's We Are The World? When? Why?

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 01:58 (twenty-two years ago)

People can always like whatever they want, I think there have been lots of people and lots of critics that had varied and diverse taste in music, I liked Ice Ice Baby and Nirvana - do I get a medal?

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

But surely you've noticed this change.

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

> I do like Hey Ya, but I don't know a single person who doesn't.<

My 12-year-old son, who likes hundreds of hip-hop songs including lots of stuff Outkast has done in the past, HATES "Hey Ya." I think it's okay; I also think it's nowhere near as fun or weird as most Outkast singles prior to this album, not to mention nowhere near as interesting as a couple dozen other Southern hip-hop songs this year.

As for the rest of this silly thread, smart people have always liked lots of pop hits, for as long as I can remember. And I'm pretty old.

― chuck, Friday, 19 December 2003 02:09 (twenty-two years ago)

And the corollary to Chuck's point is that plenty of dumb people have thought they were smart for not liking pop hits for as long as I can remember. Though I'm slightly less old. And that plenty of insular people, both smart and dumb, have always thought they were more clever than they were for "discovering" that popular things can be good.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't dislike pop music for being pop and I certainly don't think I'm smart for not liking the majority of it. Nonetheless, it is undeniable that I don't like rap or hip-hop. Additionally, people should observe the difference in pop music and in pop hits.

I guess my real point here is that I think it's absurd to criticize top 40 music any differently than one would independent music.

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I discovered that popular things can be good 20 years ago. These days, they rarely are though....

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Just like how every generation thinks they invented oral sex, maybe every generation of indie kids thinks they've discovered the joys of pop. I don't mean that to be condescending--the process of expanding one's horizons and being excited about it is totally cool, as long as the indies in question don't pat themselves too hard on the back or pretend this is an unprecedented historical moment.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:24 (twenty-two years ago)

The indie kids who have the idea that today's pop is better than yesterday's pop are wrong anyway. In fact, chart pop is worse now than it has been for 10-15 years. Only in the late 80s/early 90s was it even worse.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Would have been more natural for them to love Duran Duran, Culture Club and Wham! in the 80s, I mean...

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Rather than beating our brains out over why indie kids are now embracing pop, it might be more interesting to consider why it is that certain kids ever feel the need to reject pop in the first place. Or why it is that kids feel the need to reject mainstream culture or what their parents like. It probably has a lot to do with adolescence, the process of forming an identity, coming to terms with society, etc. I think it's perfectly natural to go through a stage of rejecting society as a whole - having a clear-eyed vision of the shallowness of our culture. Then, it's perfectly natural to surrender that effort to reject the mainstream and, in turn, to embrace it. Complete rejection is a difficult posture to maintain for long periods of time.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Rejecting something just because it isn't popular is pathetic. I rejected chart pop in the late 80s because suddenly it sucked. If it becomes good again (like at least some of it was during Britpop), then that is just a positive thing.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not saying that kids are rejecting popular music just because its popular. Though that might be part of the story. But it's probably fair to expect that the things that are popular are popular because they reflect our culture in certain ways. And it may be those reflections of the culture that the kids are rejecting.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 19 December 2003 02:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I think some of those points are fairly OTM, o. nate.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Am i the only one who thought 'Cry me a River' was/is a big stinking pile of poo?

Hahaha! No.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:03 (twenty-two years ago)

No, no indeed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:06 (twenty-two years ago)

As for the rest of this silly thread, smart people have always liked lots of pop hits, for as long as I can remember. And I'm pretty old.

-- chuck (cedd...),

That's embarrassing, having my opinion invalidated by a 12 year old...

― Stupid (Stupid), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Hahaha! No.
-- Dan Perry (djperr...), December 19th, 2003 9:03 PM. (Dan Perry)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, no indeed.

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), December 19th, 2003 9:06 PM. (Ned)

You really are a two-headed hydra, aren't you?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, really. Who can argue with Eddy's 12-yr old kid? If there was ever a deus ex machina way to settle an ILM argument, that's it.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it just me or is this argument largely based on multiple levels of pretension?

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

You really are a two-headed hydra, aren't you?

Yes, precious. Gollum, gollum...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I really do wanna point out that there was ALWAYS a place you could listen to, of all things, pop music, without buying a freaking album.

It's called the RADIO!!!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 19 December 2003 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling, I said that in my original post!!!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 19 December 2003 05:52 (twenty-two years ago)

haha oops sorry.

okay the other answer is that "hey ya" and "crazy in love" are more indie-accessable?

like hey ya coz obv it sounds like the flaming lips and crazy in love coz its way more upbeat and motownish in its own way?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 19 December 2003 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

To answer o.nate's qn - thinking back to the year or so I affected to dislike pop music (though even then I was still taping things off the radio, I just didn't take those tapes into school in case people found out what was on them), my reasons were:

i) imagined peer pressure i.e. I will be even more unpopular if I like pop instead of cool rock music.
ii) a sense that the bands I was newly getting into rejected pop (since one of these bands was New Order!!! I'm not sure what I was thinking)
iii) swallowing the idea that rock bands were more lyrically sophisticated and relevant than pop (which to be fair they were to a 14 year old who had no realistic chance of even meeting a girl)

So one bad reason, one erroneous reason, and one good reason.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 19 December 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

chuck is your son some kind of barometer of authenticity? might he be the least bit influenced by his excitable rock-crit dad??

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

whiwh wouldnt be a bad thing of course, actually itd be kind of cool

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

No such thing as authenticity.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

AuthentiCITY 2010
Build your own unique hyper-urban dwelling where each and every member of the populace is awoken from everyday concerns by angst into a state of accelerated existential authenticity! Marvel at their realness, be wowed by their actuality, sigh distractedly as they hug trees and have emotional breakdowns because they have been seperated from the productions of their labour!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Are people really arguing about MBV and Aphex Twin and the Stone Roses in a discussion about pop = you are all uber-schmindie kids!

If people under the age of 12 like it at the point it is releaed = it is pop. This is the only purely scientific barometer.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i think thats a horrid barometer, seeing as 12 year olds are as diverse and potentially as idiosyncratic as many adults

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, and its all very noble pretending that 12 year olds aren't encouraged to smother all diversity and idosyncracy under an avalanche of peer pressure, but broadly speaking it works.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes but they're generally unafflicted by teenage angst, ergo not forcing themselves into buying Pavement records because of their twisted self-image. I remember Alex Petridish twisting his kickers over some 9-year-old girl who liked Creed and S Club in The Guardian about 18 months ago, spouting stuff like "Children are honest! They buy records because they like the songs, not to appear cool!" as if this was the mostest profoundest thing he had evah seeeeeeeeeeen.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:46 (twenty-two years ago)

He is also completely wrong.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, but we're used to that.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

no matt i think its a syllogism. if for you pop is basically "anything that 12 year olds can like" then, sure, asking some 12 year olds what they like will give you pop music. but its not necessarily the best or most workable definition. what if said 12 year old likes his mom's oscar toney jr. and vladimir horowitz lps?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

When I was 12 I liked Marillion and Guns N Roses. & Poison.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it is fairly evident I'm talking about a BROAD CROSS SECTION of 12 year olds here and not picking out a random child and asking if they like Manfridd Mann or Radiohead here.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

what if said 12 year old likes his mom's oscar toney jr. and vladimir horowitz lps

then the only pop he will hear is on hospital radio whilst recovering from severe wedgie overload

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 19 December 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

boy you people are so funny

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 19 December 2003 11:01 (twenty-two years ago)

pop music is no laughing matter

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 19 December 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

''Are people really arguing about MBV and Aphex Twin and the Stone Roses in a discussion about pop = you are all uber-schmindie kids!''

well I thought the discussion wasn't only abt pop but abt indie kids 'getting' pop.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 19 December 2003 12:40 (twenty-two years ago)

After some deliberation, I'm disowning anything I said in this thread. First of all, I'm not "indie" so what the fuck do I care? Second, I had a hangover.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

hangover eh? always a good excuse.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm really surprised how many posts there are here.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

hangover of a sort

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Morissey being anti-sport (apart from boxing)

Wasn't he a massive Bobby Moore fan? Although this could be as some kind of extension of his Krays fetish (East End boy makes good, becomes glamorous) rather than any appreciation for his tackling abilities.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it just me or is this argument largely based on multiple levels of pretension?

"This" argument?

(As an aside, when I was 12 my favorite musical artists were Prince, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Adam And The Ants, Devo, Men Without Hats, Madonna, Pink Floyd, Rush, and Earth, Wind, And Fire. This was 1985.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

mine were 808 State, Inner City, The Shamen, EMF, Depeche Mode, Happy Mondays, New Order, Pet Shop Boys, De La Soul, Public Enemy, NWA, Ice Cube, Jungle Brothers, A Tribe Called Quest, Soul II Soul, KLF, Inspiral Carpets, Primal Scream (it was 1990) but this was far from average based on my peer group (many of whom liked these bands but didn't borderline obsess about them or music in general as much as i seemed to at the time)

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

When I was 12 I used to listen to the Top 40 countdown with Casey Kasem every week. And invariably, I would only like half the songs or less. There were always lots of sappy ballads and love songs and "ooh baby I want to sex you" songs that I hated. However, I wouldn't deny that those songs were pop.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

when I was 12, I was a big freakin' dork.
when I was 13, however...

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

My top 40 addiction didn't happen until I turned 13. Then I was all "DAN MUST LISTEN TO TOP 40 COUNTDOWN HOORAY IT'S MR MISTER".

I still do this to some degree (without the Mr. Mister referencing, natch).

― HOORAY IT'S NELLY FURTADO (Dan Perry), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I was addicted UNTIL I was 13 at which point I became a terrible indie snob. I didn't buy music before that point, and am catching up even now.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't become a snob until hair metal completely took over. I was all right with Bon Jovi, but when Poison hit the scene and start forcing all of the Prince-inspired funk off the charts, I got VERY angry. Right about this same time I bought the "Pretty In Pink" soundtrack and went, "Oh, HERE'S where all the great pop music went!"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Lancashire!

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, once again we have managed to take all the fun out of fun pop music.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Hooray!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 19 December 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

*gives Huckleberry a high five*

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

we should change the name of this board to I Hate Fun.
I could be king.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

2003: The Year ILX Broke Pop

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

2003: The Year Pop Broke His Hip

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.satirewire.com/news/april02/images/hoponpop.jpg

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

>>chuck is your son some kind of barometer of authenticity?<<

This may well be the dorkiest question in human history. Or okay, maybe not, but it's up there. I mean, where the heck did you get the idea I was making a point anything like that? I just said he DOESN'T LIKE THE RECORD; I didn't say it PROVED anything, except, uh, that THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DON'T LIKE THE RECORD. I didn't even say that I agreed with him, for crissakes. (My other two kids, who listen to WAY less hip-hop in general than 12-year-old Sherman, like "Hey Ya" just fine) But I DO think it's interesting that (for peer pressure reasons or whatever reasons -- doubt peer pressure has much to do with this particular taste issue, unless all his friends ALSO hate "Hey Ya," which would be REALLY intersting) that a kid whose fave music has long been hip-hop (a kid who has probably downloaded every song 50 Cent ever did -- not something I inspired, btw, since I only like "In Da Club" myself) would hate that record so much. I mean, it's *possible* that that says something about the music, right? Though how it'd say anything about "authenticity", I have no idea. (And again: I myself think "Hey Ya" is an OK record. Just not one of Outkast's best, or Southern hip-hop's recent best. It sounds SAFE, somehow. Which - just a guess - might be part of what indie rock fans find attractive about it. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.; not all music *has to* challenge people, obviously.)

On the other hand, when I got into work this morning, there was this email waiting for me from Sherman, which is an astounding first indication that he may be putting hip-hop behind him: "hey dad....i decided i want t-shirts and "hoodys" of bands that i really
like for chrismas....here is a list of bands and stuff i like and would like clothing articles of =-D 1. Goldfinger 2. Sublime ***
3. Nirvana **** 4. Drowning Pool 5. Disturbed 6. Stonesour ********
7. Greenday 8. Blink 182 9. Slipknot ********** 10. ICP (Insane Clown Posse) ******** 11. KoRn 12. 311 13. Hoobastank *** 14. mi6 15. Lit"

Scary, huh???? I mean, I don't even know who "mi6" are!!

― chuck, Friday, 19 December 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

YOUR SON IS A JUGGALO!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

He's younger than the kid on the cover of Nevermind* and he wants a Nirvana shirt? That's something else.

*by which I mean younger than the kid is now, not younger than he was at the time of the album cover photo shoot

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

chuck for the sake of god don't let him get a "Sublime" hoodie! it will set him on the path to ruin and destruction later in life.

hoobastank will probably be a valuble "ironic" collector's item in like ten years though and maybe even finance his college fees?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I cannot echo Sterling's first comment enough.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, what do the stars after band names mean on that list?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the idea of using pre-ados as pop-cult whatevers. not just because it's a fun way to get around the pesky child-labour laws, but also because they're, i don't know, a little more honest. I mean, they LIKE what they LIKE, and they're not just saying that!
Like my nephew, when he was 9, used to think nothing of the fact that his two favourite bands were Motorhead and the Spice Girls.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the *******'s means he REALLY wants hoodies by those bands. (And I have no idea whether this means I should get rid of the bootleg 50 Cent live DVD I already bought him for Christmas, or what. It's all very confusing.)

― chuck, Friday, 19 December 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

slipknot hoodies are awesome though.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Ooh, ooh! I wanna play matchmaker for Sherman and Aja!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

they're on opposite coasts though.

(but man, slipknot hoodies are so fly they'll totally get sherman lotsa love from all the gals -- for serious, i wish i could pull the look off)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

they're on opposite coasts though.

I know. They can still be pen pals!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Looking at Shermans's xmas list, it's not surprising he wouldn't like "Hey Ya" - it's probably not hard enough for him.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

If he wasn't 12, I'd say to get him _Ringmaster_ post haste.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 19 December 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

What's weird about a 12 year old wanting a Nirvana t-shirt? When I was 12 in 1984 I wanted a Led Zep t-shirt.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 19 December 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

my 78-year-old grandmother thought otis redding's "dock of the bay" was a "new orleans record"

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 20 December 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

she had a judy garland hoodie

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 20 December 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post: Haha, "judy garland hoodie"!)

Anyway, yeh, my boy's only 9 and he loves Nirvana. He likes what he likes. Loves me, but thinks I'm a dork. A good kid, really.

(Oh, and he likes "Hey Ya" a fair bit.)

So, now we've gotten the 9 yr old white male Western Canadian demographic out of the way...

― David A. (Davant), Saturday, 20 December 2003 10:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, now the mums & dads of 9-to-12-years-old daughters to the thread also? What's the ILM-daughters' take on "Hey Ya" then?

(My daughter's sixteen and doesn't seem to care much 'bout the song one way or another)

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Sunday, 21 December 2003 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Was 2003 really the year that pop "broke"?

because we all know that before this year pop was NEVER in the top 40

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 21 December 2003 04:14 (twenty-two years ago)

curtis did you read the thread?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 21 December 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

No, not really. Is it a good one?

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 21 December 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Brilliant.

I imagined you saying that without skipping a beat. Maybe you would raise one eyebrow just a little.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Sunday, 21 December 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Interesting that on Five Live this morning, whilst discussing Pop idol's culmination, one of the pundits (possibly a Fame Academy judge) said summat along the lines of "people are really tired of manufactured pop, that much is obvious... rock is the new pop, just look at The Darkness..." I have a feeling that Bublé (I refuse to pronounce it Booblay - it's Bubble!) and Cullum were also cited.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 21 December 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Buble, the man discovered by David Foster while singing at Brian Mulroney's daughter's wedding.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

bump

― I eat cannibals, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

otm ^

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

one year passes...

They'll all be listening to dance music next.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:18 AM (5 years ago)

― send a hilarious message or make a "wild" statement (Whitey on the Moon), Thursday, 17 September 2009 18:12 (sixteen years ago)

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