Let's have another thread about that genius David Banner

or hell, choose me.

I know this was sarcastic, but I'ma use this as an excuse to point out how great Ice Cube was.

Who can fuck with it, really?

My landlady is quite the looker, but I'm afriad that if I ask her out, things could get akward. Do you have any advice?
Turned on in Connecticut

Well TOIC, Y'all may of made us slaves but never make us your hoe
God, you my pimp so let's start exposin' these hoes
Y'all judges some weak pussies, y'all preaches some rapin' fags
These people that made us slaves, these niggas wavin' they flags
America ain't shit but home of the hot lick
They hang us all by rope, then laugh and cut off our dick
-David Banner

David Banner is a syndicated advice columnist who appears in over 600 newspapers nationwide.

Disclaimer: I really like David Banner's music a lot.

Mama ain't got no cash, daddy aint got no doe
So daddy went to my mama and started pimpin that hoe
Man it's hard times, niggas ain't got shit
Nothin but billy clubs to they head and they ass kicked
Heroin in they vein, cocaine up in they brain
Man what you expect, America gave us pain

Obviously, strongo I realize the parallels between banner the geto boys and robert johnson, howling wolf etc....but I think the misogyny is one of the worst aspects of all those artists...I like the geto boys best for the doubt and sadness that creeps in (and I'm sure there probably is that in Banner too, who I admit I have not really heard enough to judge, my first post was basically my first reatction to hearing him, my opinion can and prob,. will change)

i'm a rap fan, but I mean I don't think that it's invalid to be disturbed by some of the lyrics that banner has....esp. the new glorifications of the "pimp" stuff in rap that really bothers me

x-post: matt, i dont think it's invalid at all! and i am certainly disturbed by it. i mean, the thrill of crunk is like totally inseperable from the "strip club mosh" sound of it and that's something that i am totally NOT down with, on the whole.

xpost - yeah I don't think anyone is dismissing misogyny...the reason Banner gets respect is that his misogyny is not unrepentant.

Also I know I'm new here so maybe I'm stupid for saying this but this whole "shocka" thing kinda annoys me. Alright crucify me.

Sorry, but ever since Snoop and his women on leashes thing at the MTV awards this stuff has really been irritating me...

Quaint word play? So the choice is either the current hiphop lyrical status quo or quaint word play?

x-post: I don't have time for it. It doesn't work as entertainment for me.

I should probably just take a vacation from ILM.

x-post, the problem, rockist, is that a. you hate rap, and b. you haven't been able to listen to banner because of this and at least potentially hear what i am getting at above.

Sorta what makes a huge number of artists compelling...

Do you know about the lyrical content of a lot of the greek or arabic stuff you listen to?

hope you don't take a vacation from ILM.

Wrong.

This is not any comment on the merits of David Banner, but I think "Back Door Man" (which was penned by the great Willie Dixon and given to Howlin' Wolf to perform) is not necessarily about anal sex. There are a lot of possible connotations of "back door man", including most obviously the fact that if you're having an illicit affair you'd have to use the back entrance of a home. Even if you insist on reading it as a description of a sexual position, it seems at least as reasonable to see it as a metaphor for "doggystyle".

if i didn't give people a pass on this i wouldn't be able to go to work in the morning or say hi to my coworkers.

Overall hiphop seems to be shutting down the possibilities of representing male identity.

Yeah, you can be anything you want to be as long as you're not "fake", "soft", "f@ggot", "bitch-ass", or whatever....although Andre 3000 and Common are a bit of an exception.

I agree with this to a point, but I think djdee prob. means that at least Eminem or Jay-Z or Banner (I would think) seem at least conflicted or self-aware about it, unlike Jimmy Kimmel and the whole smug frat-guy-aesthtic of these shows - I mean the display of any sincere human emotion is forbidden in the Maxim aesthetic...

This is hard to get around, I admit. But, I am not going to buy the CD (based on what little I have heard, as well as what I've read) and I don't download stuff because for some reason my PC won't let me download slsk (maybe a firewall thing) and even if I did, I am nervous that the RIAA will eventually start to sue users who just download stuff without offering anything up, etc.

But those brief audio clips are being heard against the background of other songs, and sometimes albums, heard at full length.

(I borrow a good portion of the hiphop that turns up on CD in the library, just to see what's going on, but most of what gets ordered is stolen before it ever makes it onto the shelves, or so I have been told.)

Julio, I don't care too much about what's being said when the music is in a language I can't understand, but Egyptian oldies aren't likely to have anything in them that I would find offensive. I don't think most salsa lyrics are anything like standard rap lyrics. Merengue maybe, but I don't listen to it that much, and once again, can't understand it, so the content is pretty invisible. Sexually explicit alone doesn't bother me (except that it makes it pretty uncomfortable for me to dance to in a public setting).

Eminem or Jay-Z or Banner (I would think) seem at least conflicted or self-aware about it, unlike Jimmy Kimmel and the whole smug frat-guy-aesthtic of these shows

Maybe so.

i think it's great that you listen to middle eastern music; myself, i can't much of the time because i'm clued in on the attitudes and culture behind the music. not to bore anyone with details, but what others might hear as a beautiful song about loss i hear as a reinforcement of the culture that has more respect for the dead than the living, the same attitudes that makes the continued existence of the mullahs tenable (fixation on the martyrs of the revolution, etc).

but people can refrain from judgement when coming from outside the culture, and they should because without the internal perspective they aren't necessarily in a position to judge (hell, even i'm coming from an essentially secondhand perspective). and anyway what's to be gained from those judgements when you can take the good and leave the bad - which is the one great advantage to looking at a culture from the outside.

so i don't know if you can enjoy middle-eastern music because you see only beautiful messages in it (believe me, there's as much baggage there w.r.t. misogyny as anywhere else), because you don't speak the language, or because you don't feel as if judgements on the culture are necessary.

anyway, i'm losing track of what i'm saying ... your thoughts?

you're right that there's nothing graphic or explicit in middle eastern music, though the sexual attitudes that inform the "lovely ballads" are as regressive as anything in western culture (uhoh i'm playing the blues=bone thugs game)

warning: I may be totally talking out of my ass here, but one thing that I worry about is the fact that ILM (or at least some of us or at least me sometimes) might sometimes give this stuff a pass because we AREN'T a part of the community that produces Banner or Ying Yang Twinz or whoever...so we're not affected by the coarsening effect, and therefore it's alot easier for us to shrug off or rationalize or whatever (I've thought about this going all the way back to like Too Short or NWA's Efil4zaggin, two of the first rap records to disturb me).....this coupled with the fact that almost any type of rap that attempts to be "positive" or whatever is immediately lampooned as hopelessly passe or nerdy or whatever...or - at least to some people - rappers like outkast who attempt to break a bit out of the mold of the usual rapper identity...this is seen as trying to appease rock fans or something.

I think it's odd that so many people are able to get past all the shoutiness, hostility, name-calling, speaking of sex in terms of degrading others, and so forth.

but people can refrain from judgement when coming from outside the culture, and they should because without the internal perspective they aren't necessarily in a position to judge (hell, even i'm coming from an essentially secondhand perspective).

I don't feel that I am obligated to refrain from making judgments on other cultures.

The extent to which I am an outsider isn't clear though. There are cultural differences between African-Americans and white Americans, but hiphop is also part of American culture, which is shared.

I suspect that I wouldn't care enough to go on about it if I hadn't been basically very positive about it at one point (1987/8-1992/3).

and anyway what's to be gained from those judgements when you can take the good and leave the bad - which is the one great advantage to looking at a culture from the outside.

But that is a sort of judgment.

so i don't know if you can enjoy middle-eastern music because you see only beautiful messages in it (believe me, there's as much baggage there w.r.t. misogyny as anywhere else), because you don't speak the language, or because you don't feel as if judgements on the culture are necessary.

I don't understand the language, which makes it pretty easy for me to enjoy the singing.

Rembetika's okay. Not my favorite, but I like some. I don't really mind druggy songs, per se.

yes, i also worry that sometimes this stuff gets a pass because people feel it doesn't matter whether or not they're part of the community, they can judge it on equal ground...

you say, well that's just the way it is in African-American culture, not all African-Americans would appreciate that

i think my attitude is that for a person outside of a culture there's no need to take the work as indicative of anything about "the culture", as indicative of anything other than david banner and his attitudes. and since those attitudes come from a different culture = i can't really judge them (the way i could his actions, which are a little more concrete than attitudes or speech anyway)

whoops! upthread where i said "judge a culture" i meant "judge a person from another culture"

I might also be talking out of my arse but I think there's an element of "man, those thugs have it rough, just listen to their conflicted racism/misogyny/homophobia, tsk tsk how sad and interesting and complex their lives are..." I used to hear the same type of shit directed at other races from people in my rural IL hometown and it wasn't conflicted or interesting then, either.

With hiphop (at least some of the hiphop I'm complaining about) we're talking about something that is verbally assaultive. It's not just "well, I have some problems with the ideas here." It's like being serenaded by being verbally assaulted, or hearing other people verbally assaulted.

xpost: love of the conflicted thug which is a pretty funny phrase.

see now this makes me think the culture stuff is a red herring anyway, or i'm just airing out some of my issues that are really secondary to the discussion anyway.

sometimes i think i like some lyrics because I CAN relate to wanting a prada shirt. I CAN relate to the individuals producing the music. so where does culture enter into that anyway?

rockist = if you simply find the individuals (banner and everyone else) repulsive then i guess i can't say anything to change your mind.

well, that might as well be qawwali - there's an element of intoxication in violence and vice-versa, and that relation is celebrated by every culture in the world.

Just because the singing style is aggresssive, or because of the words as well? I don't know much about qawwali.

is having complex, conflicted emotions about women that alien to you?

cloverlandthug, Not that per se, but no, I really don't relate to the way rappers usually talk about women and sex. Again, too often the sex is described in a way that, to me, makes it sound like a matter of dominating and degrading your partner. Paying a lot of attention to women's bodies and caring a lot about what they look like is another matter, and yes I can relate to that and don't even feel guilty about it.

t/s: porky's vs the godfather

Music made to fuck up your headphones and grimace to, it's a gift that keeps on giving!

yes, and that's a fair comparison to my point about mixalot vs. nwa.

we've all just discovered rap for the first time

I think this stuff is just a fad...it's be all over once the Sugar Hill Gang break up.

First off, does everyone here who listens to Fugazi agree with their politics?

there's frequent sexism in rap music. rappers call women bitches. they also talk about the complex/conflicted relationships men have with women. they talk about loving women and their emotional lives and shit like that.

you guys have heard this music before, right? m@tt?

you guys have heard this music before, right? m@tt?

Yes, I have been a fan of rap since like 1987 or something...i can go to my mom's house and get my old PE and NWA and Big Daddy Kane tapes if you want me to fax my resume to the ILM Team Rap HQ.....I don't see why you think I'm being anti-rap....I'm talking about this in this thread because that's what this thread was about...I've found this interesting to discuss....I mean, yes there is alot of piggishness in rock as well....I don't think that, like Midnight Rambler by the Stones is any better than Banner or whatever...I guess I'm kind of thinking out loud in public here a bit....

And really, I'm trying to understand why people would give this a pass, I'm not trying to insult anyone obv

I realize I can't change the direction of popular music (and if I were going to try, I would at least try something more subtle than a thread like this).

I'm starting to regret starting this thread (though it's turned out more interesting than I would have expected), because as a matter of principle I think it's stupid to complain about what does or doesn't get discussed here. Am I really that offended by the bashing of Beatles worship? That was more of an excuse for things that were already brewing.

1) Are there lines?
2) Who is crossing them?
3) What do we do when lines are crossed?

so....do I pass your test now? Am I qualified to talk about this?

I don't think anyone's giving it a pass. Enjoying /= giving it a pass.

Why does everyone give the Rolling Stones a pass?
I mean, its really stupid to single out one genre for something that is a problem in our society.
Its still great art regardless.

not liking the exact same rap artists trife likes = not "really" liking hip hop

Liking people for "complexity" makes it sound like there's this special trait or something which is a codeword for "saying bad things sometimes". But to me "complexity" is just like talking about real fucking emotions that people have.

Also do people who object to everything hip-hop says about sex have the most boring sex ever? Have you never had a bit of mild power games in bed? Roleplay? Handcuffs? Have you never asked your partner for something? Never even slapped an ass? Have you only ever had sex with rose petals all over the bed after a night of coy dancing? Have you never had a hookup that was outside the context of true meaningful deep lasting love? Or wanted to? Or seen that this could happen without "degrading" either party?

Do you think its sexist to see an attractive person of the opposite sex and go "damn i'd like to get some of that"?

(nb banner to my knowledge has *never* talked about rape! how the fuck did that enter the discussion)

Also yeah there's obv gender trouble in rap at a percentage higher than popmusic in general. But saying you have to "look past" it implies a) that you only listen to things you agree with and b) that its in ALL rap, neither of which is true.

(also don't call me "white" m@tt)

Do you do the "criticism of Israel is anti-semitism" thing too, or are you too busy defending African-Americans from threats like me?

Alternately, TS: Ta-Nahesi Coates vs. Frank Kogan

ps Nothing on the Mississippi records is as vile as that Nickelback single.

x-post: and also listen to the lyrical content more closely.

"If the North's streets are the new PBS, then the sense of moral equivocation and crisis brought by original gangsta rap has settled deeply in the South -- making it, I guess, the new USA Up All Night. David Banner's anti-war anthem "Bush" kicks off with just that sentiment: "Why y'all think we gon' kill and just don't give a hot fuck/Devil that's how you made us, Lock us up in the pen/Man we came out blind, that's why we going back in." By the end though, its on some next-level sexually-conflicted millennialist trip: "God, you my pimp so let's start exposin' these hoes."

On *Mississippi: The Album* Banner comes with the most trustworthy voice since Snoop, and with Lil' Flip's goofball boasts, Bone Crusher's howling woof, J Da Groove's urgent quaver (and, and, and…) provides the most distinctive and compelling set of personalities since *Enter The 36 Chambers*. The formula for the beats: Sippin on sizurp + blues samples = 70s electro-funk booty busters flippin' the old-new south of redemption into the nu-new south of old-slave south salvation! Outkast's prog-rock reconstruction project aside, that is.

The New Democrat anti-welfare backlash talked about a sense of "entitlement" to "handouts" like it was a bad thing. To the contrary, Banner's entitled attitude is the best thing about his album. The sense of historic rightness invoked by the Jim Crow redeemers was the same invoked by the westward expansion -- Manifest Destiny as metropolis-on-every-hill Calvinism. Entitled to what we don't yet posses, pretending what we become. It's not all roses though. Like W.E.B. Du Bois wrote in "On The Wings of Atalanta" contemplating the voracious industrialism that slavery had given way to: "It is a hard thing to live haunted by the ghost of an untrue dream; to see the wide vision of empire fade into real ashes and dirt; to feel the pang of the conquered, and yet know that with all the Bad that fell on one black day, something killed that in justice had not dared to die; to know that with the Right that triumphed, triumphed something of Wrong, something sordid and mean, something less than the broadest and the best."

Banner's also released a screwed and chopped remix album which is in some ways even better. Cover cast in washed-out blue tones, it overtly transforms the theme into some hauntology of slave retribution. But seriously? It just sounds like the same album with some bits slowed down more mixed over others slowed less; perfect for late night listening when your brain is wired at half-speed anyway, or backyard barbecues when you reach your third pitcher. Dubbed out, pretty, soothing -- sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, dig?"

I brought the word rape into the conversation not in relation to Banner but to NWA's Efil4zaggin album...here are some of the lyrics I was talking about:.

because she knows I'm not to be fucked with
She ain't crazy
fuckin' with dre should be pushin' up daisies
She was the perfect ho' but what do you know
the bitch tried to gag me
so - I had to kill her
Yeah, straight hittin'
Now listen up and lemme tell you how I did it
yo, I tied her to the bed
I was thinking the worst but yo I had to let my niggaz fuck her first

Don't yall realized that Leadbelly was in JAIL!? how can you make a hero out of this monster!!!!

All I'm saying is that your assuming none of this other stuff bothers me....

they call me no draws
coz my hand better than y'alls
no bluffin when i defeat all calls
all the trumps all the trucks
me an my crew got all the bucks
you think you gonna raise the stakes
well i'm just gon done reciprocate

mo cash mo stacks means mo hate
so come late you get whiplash
's what they call when you close your eyes
but still blinded when my rims flash by.

we are the baddest clique
if you can trick once, you can trick twice
want some more than call us tonight and we'll show you
p*dg*tt, p*dg*tt.

Last-second cut from my Banner piece, for lack of space:

There’s a song whose basic idea is that touring is fun because you get to fuck other guys' baby mamas. Addressing such a guy: "If it makes you feel better/She’s a good dick sucker." (Not that I find Banner’s sexual attitudes interesting – though I might if he were 11 years old, or I were.)

The song isn't sexist or misogynist per se, but I'd be depressed if it represented the general attitude around me, where women were the trophies in the war between the males. Yet speaking from the culture at large, which both Banner and I are part of even if we occupy somewhat different milieus (but if you're interested, he's a few credits short of his Master's degree, though that'll probably stay on hold until/unless his hip-hop career fizzles), said at-large culture is not settled in its sex roles, in case you hadn't noticed, and rappers don't promote particular sex roles, they skitter all over the place.

Keith, I actually find Banner too lazy in his contradictions (very much unlike the Rolling Stones, by the way). And I take Coates to be pointing out quite correctly that Banner doesn't follow through on his ideas (I'll send Banner to the Derrida thread, where he'll be right at home), in particular that Banner virulently and powerfully proclaims slavery as the crucial-but-being-evaded heritage of Afro America and Everything-else America, and then just fucking drops the issue, taking it nowhere. But Coates goes wrong is in thinking that the Banner aggression (some of which, by the way, comes across as raw comedy) gets in the way of the thesis. I don't see the aggression preventing the thesis, just the fact that Banner isn't much of a thinker yet.

I swiped the Tourrette's line from Chuck, who might have swiped it from Coates, I notice now that I look back at Coates's piece.

I wonder, were Medgar Evers alive, if he'd give Banner a pass on "Why y'all think we gon' kill and just don't give a hot fuck/Devil that's how you made us." But I guess to really respond to Keith's question, the music does make an aesthetic case for "kill and just don't give a hot fuck," which is art's job, I suppose, making us fell complicit in such things via our emotional response, though of course this is old, old news by now, and done better by Eminem, not to mention...

...the Rolling Stones. Matt and djdee, I'm not sure I understand you as regards people giving the Stones a pass. Are you being ironic? For the last 35 years or so whenever anyone wants to make a point about "sexist rock groups" they always say "Rolling Stones," like knee jerk, like you. And what's boring and depressing about this is that the Stones are neither sexist nor misogynist, or maybe only in airplanes but not in their lyrics (possible sexist exception is "Ride On Baby" and possible misogynist exception is "I'd Much Rather Be With the Boys" which was written by Oldham, and yes I've heard "Under My Thumb" and "Midnight Rambler," not to mention "Heart of Stone" and "Back Street Girl" and "Lady Jane" and "High and Dry" and "My Obsession" and "Street Fighting Man" and "Brown Sugar," all of which have a similar theme refracted one way or another). And I've never read an intelligent argument that says otherwise, though maybe there'll be a first time. And now having raised my fist, I've got to go offline. Without explaining myself. Lazy like Banner. Hah!

oh and I didn't see this until this scroll-through:

<>

Yeah, I know you have your defenders on here Trife--for whatever reason--but the calling people racist or implying that they are in order to fortify your opinion is a shitty and cowardly move.

Jerk!

plus he said it to rockist who wasn't talking about sexism but just "aggression" not m@tt who WAS talking about sexism.

"rape entered the discussion bcz of eazy e lyrics, and, you know, hes black, david banner is black, doesnt take long for the wheels to start turning.... "

xpost

and the defenders of banner were as bad as him. "oh, it might surprise you but i've been listening to artists (yes, i said 'artists') such as jay-z and mf doom and they often show a degree of thoughtfulness in their art (yeah, you heard me)." and in response: "these rappers have wearied of degrading their own communities/subsidized housing projects and now want to degrade our community. oh, for the days when sexism was tongue-in-cheek and clever and not the rape imagery of these thug rappers."

yeah but you seem to be equating, say, harassment with rape. i'd wager it's a little easier to persuade a guy who thinks harassment's no big deal that it actually is than to persuade a guy who thinks rape is ok that it's not. i mean, cloverlandthug is right, rs's reaction seems a lot more "christ i do not dig the david banner," & i'm dragging other conversations i've had with trife into this thread, but a line that "poke your girl up in the throat and make her swallow the nut" in a rock context would likely raise a chorus of "wtf"s - don'tcha think?

I don't know, the question of misogyny in rap has been buggin' me for sixteen years or so now, i got baggage.

seriously? if i recast the sentence:

i honestly can't think of any reason people would dislike racist lyrics except for the perception that it will make them/other people/the world more racist

would it still be true for you?

x-post: i may have been reading you wrong.

most people talking about sexism in rap on this thread act like it's unique, like they want to be patted on the back for calling out david banner on making women swallow his semen, and like rap music is some kind of last bastion of sexism. there is a lot of sexism in it but a major problem is totally misinterpreting certain language and images.

no, you're right, i don't. but the concept of "justified sexism" makes about as much sense to me as the concept of "justified racism" and frankly makes my butt hurt.

jess!! i can't think of any good examples. lots of david banner stuff, where, like everyone said, the bitch/bitchass/fuckbootyass stuff is just, like, a casual exclamation. (!!i don't want this to sound like "no, when he says 'faggot' it doesn't mean homosexual") and like, just most basic sex lyrics, lyrics about girls. !!like, most lil jon, who was mentioned-- most of his songs are offensive and all that but rarely sexist. "lil Jon and the east side boys with me and we all like to see ass and titties." ('Do you think its sexist to see an attractive person of the opposite sex and go "damn i'd like to get some of that"?') i can't think of a single good example! but like ja rule said, "this is no intention to being offensive to women by calling ya'll bitches my down-ass bitches." like, language that sounds sexist if you only listen to bubba 'sparks' and missy elliot. it's long and unclear but do you know what i mean?

It would be easier if I would just give examples of lyrics that bother me. I am hesitant to use the word "sexist" in general, since I don't consider much of what feminists call "objectification" to actually be sexist. Or as whatever it was Sterling Clover said about "Don't you ever look and say I want some of that?" I don't feel apologetic about that, no. One of the threads in hiphop that really bothers me is the frequent use of sexual imagery to degrade--whomever. It's not limited to misogyny, it's a matter of sex being so frequently linked up to degrading competitors, and also, at times, women. (I don't not care about misogyny but there is a more general issue.)

There is something about dance music, even when I am not necessarily actually dancing to it, that makes the lyrics matter more to me, because I am somehow participating in the music in such an immediate way. It feels less distant. It's certainly entirely different for me from reading a book written in the voice of a reprehensible narrator. If I'm dancing to something I almost feel that I am giving consent to it. It's not fun for me--it's not a celebration--to dance to DMX's "Party Up (Up in Here)" (I hope I have the name right) or even Mystikal's "Shake Your Ass." I've ended up on the dance floor, on two different occasions, trying to dance to both of these, but the rapping/lyrics killed it for me.

Also, I think that since the delivery in rap is closer to speech than singing is, it creates less a sense of distance from the content. (I'm not sure I totally buy this though. Is there really less artifice in rap than there is in singing?)

Also, the way I listen to music, I don't find it pleasurable to have to do a lot of literary critical sort of interpretations. It is second nature for many of you, but it would take work for me.

I was looking at my CDs and I have bought and kept no more than a dozen (English language) popular music CDs for a decade now. Why would I even expect myself to be buying hiphop? Apparently I don't like the state of popular music, overall. And also why single it out then?

But, you know, why am I getting so exercised about it? I think I need to get out more. It's been a cold and snowy January.

Me: "But you have to understand where he's coming from.... BACK! Waaaaaaay back, back in time!!"

i say "sonofabitch" fairly often. is it coarse? only mildly so compared to plenty of other curses. it it sexist? i don't think so. when ilxers call the board "this bitch" how much irony is involved? is there ever irony when anyone BUT ilxers uses the word bitch?

i've had girls say "i was a total bitch to so and so" and are THEY being sexist? not exactly, i think.

on to the banner track. "make em swallow the nut" is the most offensive line on there, yeah. if it was anything but "make" tho i don't think it would be -- i.e. "they like to" or "have" or "watch" or etc. but it is "make" with all the problems that implies. not "pretend to make while they pretend to be unwilling because you're roleplaying" and i don't think i can reduce that to any sort of elision either.

then there's "I tried to told you/that most girls really freaks/and this is how they gotta/make they money every week" which is sexist because it says "most girls" and not say "some girls" because indeed there are a portion of girls who have to do various things to make their money every week.

then there's the line about lying ass hos wearing their best friends clothes and again the word "ho" is the whole problem here coz again there are girls who front on their style and act fake and i don't know if its a problem to hate it when they get in your face at a club.

on the scale of gender relations though we're talking equal employment, equal pay, abortion rights, domestic abuse etc. i generally rilly dislike posing the question of an asshole boyfriend who thinks you'll run around on him and so is afraid to emotionally commit as one of "sexism" or for that matter an asshole guy who says he'll call you and then after you screw he never does a question of "sexism" either.

emotional immaturity seems like a better term -- aka how life is for most people in their early 20s, be they rappers, rap fans, indie-clique kids, young republicans, or whatever.

this is not to apologize for "like a pimp" which crosses any number of lines but to suggest some complexity. i've had friends call themselves pimps in some contexts and i've been like "you asshole do you want to be a pimp? those guys are actually very skeezy unsavory exploitative abusive lowlifes" and in other contexts i've been "yeah, i feel you".

also as far as girls and dirty rap music and whatever the line i hear most often is "i love this song! he's so sexist its totally funny."

the bigger question is how this "war of the sexes" stuff came to pass for "fighting sexism and achiving women's lib".

"god intended women to take care of men" = sexism
"shake your ass, its why god gave it to you" = possibly a good line, very very heavily dependent on context.

There's also this crudely attacking compeition, and seeming glorification of thugishness:

Fuck a dollar girl pick up fifty
And fuck that coward you need a real nigga
Off top a nigga bout hurtin shit
Bend over hoe show me what you workin with

Anyway, I still don't like it.

(Lyrics copied from a web-site. I don't know if these are exactly accurate.)

the "glorification of thuggishness" bit is a difft. deal again tho since its rilly a glorification of being a hardass which is also film noir and action film not to mention the so-called bickle-flick etc.

Actually, in the case of Mystikal the offensive content wasn't the only thing that made me uncomfortable. It's just too sexually explicit and upfront for me. The situation: I was at a Latin night at a club. I met someone who I was attracted to, and I was giving her a crash course in salsa and merengue. But she was with a girlfriend who she had come from out of town to visit, so in order for the three of us to dance together we went into a smaller partially closed in area where they play "English" music: hiphop and so forth. Now when I'm feeling attracted to one of the women I'm dancing with, the last thing I want to hear is "I came here with my dick in my hand." But that's my problem, I guess. Certainly sexually explicit doesn't equal "offensive" in my mind, but I am just not relaxed enough to dance with an attractive stranger while this type of song is playing.

Alex in nyc, you got "fuck youed" on a thread that you hadn't even posted to.

Apologies to those expecting this thread to really be about David Banner.

She was Egyptian too, and I really wanted to talk to her about Egyptian music, but it was too loud to have much of a conversation and I wasn't sure what she had said when I brought the subject up, but it sounded like she had misheard me.)

there are perfectly sensible reasons for this rockist!!!

But it's a great R. Kelly song.

Oh yay, it's ironic distance time! I guess we have nothing to worry about.

I'm certainly not talking about music critics...I mean the dancers.
If I think about how bizarre some rap lyrics are ("...with my dick in my hand...") while I'm dancing, it fucks me up.

Perhaps "ironic distance" isn't what I mean...

yr a better man than most.

HOLLYWOOD— David Banner's about to set off a culture clash in his neighborhood.

The Dirty South rapper has inked a deal to star in his own animated show for the Cartoon Network. While he's still keeping mum on some of the details(like the show's title), Banner did leak a little bit of info about the project-in-the-works backstage at the 2005 BET Awards (see "Destiny's Child Give Lap Dances, Fugees End Feud At BET Awards").

"I can't tell y'all the name of [the cartoon] yet, but it's going to be about an older white family in Mississippi whose mind frame is still caught in the 1800s," Banner said. "Then along comes me, and then, wow!"

Well, he's no Mr. Rogers — and with the upcoming project slated to air during the channel's Adult Swim block (11 p.m.-6 a.m., Saturday-Thursday), you can expect the rapper to bring some, ahem, entertaining content for late-night tube-watchers.

Although in defense of my 2003-4 self, "ironic" was definitely not what I was trying to get across w/rt my engagement w Mystikal. 'humor' =/= irony

This is from some Village Voice article from Aug. 30th. I found it on Cocaine Blunts, of course.

It's impossible to overstate the difference between an ordinary show and an industry showcase. Ordinary shows are effective marketing tools, OK, but they're also chances for artists to come face-to-face with the people who buy their music and for music to become an all-encompassing experience instead of something you listen to while you wash dishes. At last night's Universal showcase, music never got past the level of background noise; most of the industry professionals in the audience were evidently just there for the free drinks, sometimes talking loudly enough to drown out the artists onstage. If record labels hope to introduce their artists with events like this, they're fooling themselves. They're spending thousands upon thousands of dollars so that a few hundred people can drink for free and ignore their artists. Open bars cost money, and so do fluorescent end-tables and do David Banner inflatable punching bags and seas of balloons and laser-projectors that keep the Universal logo rotating on the club wall. It's not money well-spent.

For artists thrown into schmooze-fests like this, the logical route is to go up onstage, tell everyone who you are, do a couple of songs, and then go get yourself some free drinks. That's what Chamillionaire and Yummy Bingham both did. Neither was particularly concerned with connecting with the audience. Chamillionaire one of the five or six greatest rappers on planet Earth, a Houston MC with an effortless, slippery flow, an endless supply of dorkily perfect punchlines, and a gift for sticky singsong hooks. He's a mixtape veteran and an internet favorite, but he had to tell this crowd that his name isn't pronounced "Chuh-millionaire" and he isn't 50 Cent's little brother. He did two songs and left. Nobody noticed. Yummy Bingham is a sub-Spice Girl R&B "singer" who pretty much just speaks her lyrics and sounds like a cat being tortured when she tries to do vocal runs. She did four songs and left. Nobody noticed. I don't blame either of them for getting offstage as quickly as possible.

But David Banner treated the crowd's indifference as a personal insult. During the first song of his half-hour set, he ran out into the crowd, jumped up on a table, tore his shirt off, and threw Courvosier on the crowd. Then he stopped the show to preach to the crowd, telling it that the entire music industry was based within fifteen square blocks in Manhattan but that 85% of Universal's sales last year had come from Southern and Midwestern artists, that "y'all got more responsibility to promote this music." He said that his home state was flooded and that his father had "brain cancer and lung cancer" and that we needed to make him feel more at home. On the next song, he tore down the Universal banner behind the stage, threw it on as a cape, and then charged into the crowd again. He threw up devil horns and yelled, "All you white people, put ya rock signs up! And all you black people, I know you working for somebody white because that's who runs the industry, so put ya rock signs up too or else you might get fired!" Then the DJ cued up "Smells Like Teen Spirit," and Banner chanted, "Rock! Rock! Rock!" He stared into the audience and said, "If my father die and you fuck this album up, I'ma kill y'all," and gave a low chuckle. He denounced the crowd for perpetuating rap beef: "We grown men acting on some high school shit! We in front of these white folks looking like savages!" (I'm paraphrasing all these quotes, but he was really saying this stuff.) He rode some bouncer's shoulders. He put some girl up on his shoulders. He jumped up on the bar. I'm pretty sure he told the crowd that he'd pissed in Diddy's pool. And when the crowd still gave him a weak cheer at the end of his set, he screamed, "As hard as a motherfucker work, I'd rather have y'all boo me!" And still the crowd paid no attention. Banner doesn't really rap at shows; he just sort of yells along with his CD. But he bared his soul to a room full of industry scumbags who couldn't have cared less. It made me happy and sad. I hope Banner's functional bullshit detector and fierce pride don't fuck up his career too much.

Grey Skies is 1000% slept on classic.

This is a great thread. Kudos dudes.

Speaking of dudes...

since it's been all guys posting here (as far as i can tell with the pseudonyms), i am curious as to how many of you listen to rap music regularly around women. (this is a legit question.) because i know that when i was living with a girl last and sharing that sonic space i was much more conscious of how the constant stream of almost subconscious offensive blather about women could niggle at her, get under her skin. (this is not to say she didn't/doesn't enjoy a lot of offensive rap music, among other things.)

-- strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, January 31, 2004

My girlfriend and I spar infrequently over lyrics. I make an effort to play less offensive stuff around her and my female friends, stick to latter-day Outkast & Common & whatnot. Every now and then, though, I'll get less mindful and play some 8Ball & MJG or whatever. She'll hear some offensive line and say "Are you even LISTENING to the lyrics here?"

Then we'll argue and retread the same points we hit every time we have this discussion that never seems to go anywhere. I trot out the same old shit about how "it's in the culture, not just the music" "there's a historical context to it (viz bluesguys, folk etc)" and insist that it doesn't affect my attitudes. She thinks I'm not being conscientious enough. Unlike Strongo's roomie, she doesn't enjoy any of the offensive stuff and that I listen to it at all remains a point of contention.

Truth be told?

I do get disturbed every now and then when I find myself absentmindedly referring to girls as "bitches" in my head.

Also this shit is incredible.

But David Banner treated the crowd's indifference as a personal insult. During the first song of his half-hour set, he ran out into the crowd, jumped up on a table, tore his shirt off, and threw Courvosier on the crowd. Then he stopped the show to preach to the crowd, telling it that the entire music industry was based within fifteen square blocks in Manhattan but that 85% of Universal's sales last year had come from Southern and Midwestern artists, that "y'all got more responsibility to promote this music." He said that his home state was flooded and that his father had "brain cancer and lung cancer" and that we needed to make him feel more at home. On the next song, he tore down the Universal banner behind the stage, threw it on as a cape, and then charged into the crowd again. He threw up devil horns and yelled, "All you white people, put ya rock signs up! And all you black people, I know you working for somebody white because that's who runs the industry, so put ya rock signs up too or else you might get fired!" Then the DJ cued up "Smells Like Teen Spirit," and Banner chanted, "Rock! Rock! Rock!" He stared into the audience and said, "If my father die and you fuck this album up, I'ma kill y'all," and gave a low chuckle. He denounced the crowd for perpetuating rap beef: "We grown men acting on some high school shit! We in front of these white folks looking like savages!" (I'm paraphrasing all these quotes, but he was really saying this stuff.) He rode some bouncer's shoulders. He put some girl up on his shoulders. He jumped up on the bar. I'm pretty sure he told the crowd that he'd pissed in Diddy's pool. And when the crowd still gave him a weak cheer at the end of his set, he screamed, "As hard as a motherfucker work, I'd rather have y'all boo me!" And still the crowd paid no attention. Banner doesn't really rap at shows; he just sort of yells along with his CD. But he bared his soul to a room full of industry scumbags who couldn't have cared less. It made me happy and sad. I hope Banner's functional bullshit detector and fierce pride don't fuck up his career too much.

in response to the question posed by jess and answered up there by hoos, one of the most uncomfortable and regretable moments of the past few months for me was when i was listening to cam'ron say "faggots" and "cocksuckers" in the presence of a gay friend of mine.

*sigh*

was he actually offended or are you sanctimoniously projecting? i really don't know any gay person who would be insanely traumatized by that. everyone i know got over that shit in high school and joke about it, etc.

Why is his discomfort immediately evidence of "sanctimonious projection"?

jokes about it

and jess and HOOS were talking about attitudes expressed by lyrics, not 'bad' words. i can see a word and its context offending someone but not the word by itself.

I trot out the same old shit about how "it's in the culture, not just the music"

I wanted to clarify that I meant it's in "American" culture at large and that since art reflects attitudes in culture etc etc...

Obviously not suggesting that the bullshit misog of 8Ball (say) is inherent in black culture or anything.

that'd_be_racist.gif

i can see a word and its context offending someone but not the word by itself.

Really? OK, how about "the context is a straight guy using the term 'faggot' as a term of abuse" - that context enough for you? Nobody said "insanely traumatized" by the way - just "offended," which seems about right

HOOS did you not get the memo, giving a shit about shit is sanctimonious, do keep up

And to be fair, Cam is not exactly using "faggot" in a liberatory context.

hoos please reread the memo, it's a joke unless he says it while personally kicking the faggot in the face

c'mon man this is 101 stuff, nobody cares about faggots

no it's just that all of the fags i know and hang out with (which isn't very many in all honesty, so my experience is probably skewed) wouldn't be crushed if they heard cam'ron say 'faggot.' i guess it could still be awkward for the mo but i'm trying to imagine the scenario and just coming up with a straight person thinking it must be really offensive and feeling awkward about it w/out saying anything. ok now who's projecting. time for bed.

oh boy so many x-posts

was he actually offended or are you sanctimoniously projecting? i really don't know any gay person who would be insanely traumatized by that. everyone i know got over that shit in high school and joke about it, etc.

i didn't talk to him directly about it, but the mood of the situation obviously changed and became obviously tenser. i guess i should have noted that it wasn't necessarily the words that were used but rather the tone (and i still like cam etc.) i.e. "an inside joke... for all you COCK SUCKERS" etc. and that can still be offensive/hurtful, etc.

it's a joke unless he says it while personally kicking the faggot in the face

The scene in Killa Season where he unzips and pisses on that guy while going "no homo! no homo!" is one of the most mindbendingly genderfucked in the history of hip-hop cinema.

A FILM WHOSE TIME HAS CUM ...er..

is there not a thread on "killa season" the movie?

the unintentional/intentional comedy is borderline revolutionary.

No one's mentioned "Rubberband Man"?! For some reason, the local pop station still plays this frequently. Definitely not complaining!

hey i got my ass beat last night for being a faggot and got it yelled at me today by some armenian dudes in an escalade. there's always a context to everything and if there's 'faggot' involved the context is probably pretty offensive, and you're right john d. that the original post said 'uncomfortable and regrettable' which does sound about right, i was the one with a reading problem. my knees just jerk when i hear people get upset about something in a song, because christ you know? it takes some imagination to hear other contexts around a song besides the one demeaning one--sometimes it's not even worth it but a lot of times it is. and i like cam'ron.

x-post. ok that totally makes sense jordan. sorry to have gotten all crazypants on you.

xpost. nah it's cool, that's what discussion is for. and anyway there's shit in between the lines that didn't translate over the internet etc. etc. no hard feelings.

No one's mentioned "Rubberband Man"?! For some reason, the local pop station still plays this frequently. Definitely not complaining!

-- Tape Store, Sunday, July 29, 2007 5:36 AM

I heard it on the radio out of the blue a couple days ago, quite WTF.

Also, for whoever asked about the cartoon upthread:

"That Crook'd 'Sip is a show created by Jacob Escobedo, Nick Weidenfeld, Levell "David Banner" Crump and Mike Weiss. It premiered on Sunday, May 13, 2007 at 12:15 a.m. EST (May 14) on the Adult Swim block of Cartoon Network programming.

The Beauregard family, much like their Mississippi mansion, is falling apart. Relics of the Old South, this dysfunctional clan sits in stark contrast to the modern crunk-fueled Dirty South that has grown up around their crumbling estate, Frenchman’s Bend."

Apparently only one ep has aired.

this thread is still :-/ and recent revive isn't helping

What would it take to get it out of :-/ ville?

i dunno, less handwringing. vahid's posts upthread were alright i guess

I don't know, I'm still working out the politics of this stuff for myself and it helps to talk it out with other people. I guess that can come off like hand-wringing.

straight outta :-/ville

dont let me stop you

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AAS222S3L._AA240_.jpg

Are you and jess and ethan etc just past all this stuff? You guys are a couple years older than me, do you have it figured out or at least settled in your own minds? Totally serious question.

xpost

i second that.

If you're still up, deej or any of the senior rolling snap crew, I'd be very interested in any replies.

The OG Rolling Snap crew, let's say.

i can't answer for them but i think this kind of 'i like banner but just so you know, i object to misogyny!' comes across as a bit too much '...doth protest too much,' not that i think yr secretly supermisogynist or anything but yes, hoos, we know you like rap, we like rap, some rap has misogynist themes, there is no need to reestablish that you are in fact human and find things offensive/objectionable yet enjoy parts of them too.

basically its a debate that has existed in art forever and i don't feel like anything is really being added here. what conclusion am i supposed to draw other than 'hoos is conflicted'?

at the same time i don't think yr posts in this thread are particularly offensive or anything, its cool yr eager to discuss this issue and i guess to some degree it is new to you so i'm just being hypocritical

so deej is yr position that, since the debate is old, one need not or ought not remark on misogyny when it's present? that's it's somehow gauche or passe to do so?

don't take the wrong tone from that, just a question. For you, this question is settled - is that what you're saying?

no, not at all. there are lots of meaningful things to be said. this doesn't come across that way, it comes across as a cheap bid for a 'pass' to me ... or that by somehow acknowledging that some shit you listen to is offensive it 'means' something. it feels like an empty gesture intended more to let everyone know that, you know, I AM CONFLICTED.

that makes it sound more like hoos is being self-aggrandizing than i think he is, but i don't know how else to say it. how am i supposed to respond to him? how would u respond, if i wasn't expressing my lack of enthusiasm?

I wrote a very long response (postscript: I guess this one gets long, too) but this whole question is such a bottomless pit of despair for me that I said "fuck it." I relate to hoos's conflicted stuff here, so it doesn't seem like he's asking for a "pass" so much as for help in parsing something he enjoys in such a way that, in enjoying it, he won't feel like he's lending moral legitimacy to some stuff within it that he finds objectionable. When I say "some stuff," though, the pervasiveness of this "stuff" should be noted: nobody who loves rap can fail to have noticed that "bitch" is used as a substantive for "woman" as often as it means "unpleasant woman." I think it's kinda brave of him to admit that "bitches" now conflates with "women" in his head, and I don't think of that as "no big deal" - but I'm kinda on my hobby horse here. I have hated the use of the word "bitch" in rap for as long as I've been listening to the stuff, which is 20 or 21 years now. I think it's total bullshit, and I think there's a very weird condescending racism at work in dudes not taking offense at stuff in rap where they might take offense at if they heard it elsewhere.

but I'm not gonna go long on this because sooner or later somebody'll remind me that world hunger is still a problem, so what's the big deal if men call women bitches right

but I'm not gonna go long on this because sooner or later somebody'll remind me that world hungHOOSger is still a problem, so what's the big deal if men call women bitches right

-- J0hn D., Monday, July 30, 2007 3:46 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

ban tape store

J0hn, you're starting to sound like Patrin at his most paranoid/sarcastic/self-conscious. Ethan officially broke you.

HOOS WANT IT! HOOS WANT IT!

it feels like an empty gesture intended more to let everyone know that, you know, I AM CONFLICTED.

This feels otm. Thanks for the responses, guys.

no goato

bump 4 monday clusterfuck

good work

no, i don't feel the need to mention that this awesome song disrespects women/gays/jews/inuits/banana splits fans and I Am Against Dehumanization As A Rule when i'm watching mtv with my friends or driving in the car with same or even out at a bar/club/church social with people i may be less than intimate familiars with. i do believe, however, that the fait accompli (or just totally ignored) way regrettable content is dealt with in MANY kinds of reviews (esp. in, say, the hands of our new poptimist overlords for whom any extra-musical associations are anathema), not just of hip-hop, is pernicious. it doesn't have to be hand-wringing or overly earnest or even didactic. but not mentioning it at all seems tantamount to consumer fraud.

My take on Banner's use of ugly language and extreme mysogyny is that it's *supposed* to be part of his concept -- his whole persona is based on the oppressed black man from the south rendered so angry as to become a foul mouthed sociopathic monster. It worked beautifully on Mississippi: The Album, which I believe is one of the great hip-hop records. The last two-thirds of the record draws its strength from the brutally disgusting first part.

But then he does "Play," clearly intended as a commercial misogyny song. No context, no point.

So I never defend ugliness for the sake of ugliness -- I hate, hate, HATE Efil4zaggin, for instance. But I acknowledge it and occasionally celebrate it if it fits into the artistic theme.

I'd say that "Play" isn't de facto misogynist and is probably one of his less morally-entangled songs, though! It's just directly nasty and sexual, but outside of the ying-yang twins quote it doesn't really approach outright sexism.

As for the idea of conflicted regarding musical content, it's just that, being conflicted. You can enjoy music, be frustrated by it, and outright loathe it at different times. If your relationship to all music is "wow, this song is awesome!" then it's a pretty shallow interaction.

Thanks for all this again, guys.

banners always been hugely overrated to me... i enjoy some of his records but the shtick and interviews have always seemed more interesting than the music.

but not mentioning it at all seems tantamount to consumer fraud.

yeah i mean its not like by glossing over these issues the writer is doing the music a service either.

damned if you do etc

I'd be surprised this thread revive went on for fifty posts without once mentioning his new single, but then I've heard it.

Haha yeah true.

I have to say this thread is one of my favorite thread titles of all time, it's so sarcastic and bitchy.

Should I start a new thread for the upcoming album?

Here's an XXL interview where he talks about it.

actually i think hes genuinely shit. crooked lettaz were a 100 times better than banner solo. he should just release his interviews on record and be done with it.

Banner fascinates me because he manages to sound brilliant, crazy and retarded simultaneously in the same interview (The elephants? Awesome. If you ain't dead, you a fed? Crackhead talk). His brain just doesn't work like a normal person's brain, man.

Really looking forward to the record. He's one of the few rappers who actually releases press advances, so I'll have to chase that down.

I was going to post something unfunny about TEH HULK but then I remembered that that was Bruce Banner.

it was david banner at one pt

pretty sure it was intentional on his part tho

take a bath
wash yaself
take a bath
show me what you're washin

Can someone tell me why he has a hitler stache in Stomp the Yard 2?

Haha