Music writers: why do you bother?

Now fuck off.

This sounds like it could have been taken from a letter to the editor complaining that a critic gave a bad review of last night's Dave Matthews concert.

(It might be quite obvious here that I don't consider myself a particularly good reviewer in the critical sense, but I do seem to get decent quotes out of people. Plus under 40 percent of what I write about is music-based and I like it that way.)

We're all at it today.

Anyway, people DO want to read music criticism/reviews. I, for one, find that the folks who do it out of love for music, in the hopes of turning readers on to some great LPs they might not have heard about...they are both effective and valuable to me personally. I mean, it'sa proven thing: read review, buy record, like record. When that happens, it's pretty easy to see why they "bother". People who write reviews just to get off on themselves--"Look, I made a pun in the title! A pun!!"--are just bothersome...

While understanding exactly how pathetic this sounds, i've made more money as a freelance music writer than at any of my other forms of employment.

2. Popular music is probably the most subjective and unintellectual of all artforms, and is therefore immune to any kind of rigorous discourse. A song can be great/elegiac/sad/etc. purely on the basis that you heard it first when you were 15 years old. How do you argue with that?

I think your statement is facetious in the extreme, but the very subjectivity of pop allows for many different interpretations; which, for me, means it *demands* writing about. great writing about music has changed the way i've listened to music, and that's something I aspire to - similarly, the fact that i still devour writing about music with a rabid hunger means that there's a market out there for people to read what i might write. also, to promote the *right* music (equally subjective) is a keen part of the attraction - to be a booster, to be a critic.

i would argue against pop being the most non-intellectual of artforms.

4. Most of the music I love, I have no real desire to read about. I have a desire to read about the lives of the people who created it perhaps, or the circumstances in which it was made. But no desire to read musical criticism.

the problem with this statement is, you assume there to be a list of inarguable facts that make up any artiste's history. even writing a band's story, telling their life, engaging in an interview, is an act of musical criticism determined by the questions you ask, the way you tell their story, the facts you include or omit. there's certainly no piece about a band or a musician i've written that hasn't, at some part in the tale, included passages of musical criticism or theory, arguing for why the subject deserves the attention.

Er, no

And accusing me of racism on the basis of my initial post is a bit McCarthyite, isn't it?

To me interviews just feel like a part of the PR process, they do some quotes, I present them and if I don't like the band try and win some pathetic pyrrhic victory by isolating a quote and then using odd metaphors which match something the artist said. eg Some band said "we were easily the heaviest band on the bill" and so I used words like "weighty" and "magnitude" and "hefty" throughout the piece.

Most artists to be are fairly boring, I know that's an awful critic cliche but they are! Don't get me wrong I love the idea of artists with an image and a style, I'd enjoy interviewing say Felix Da Housecat or something but the vast majority of artists just spout the same old rubbish, there are as many dance cliches as rock ones and pop ones.

But I guess the point I'm making is that while I don't care about interviews I do really care about reviews. I always skip straight to reviews in magazines, I think there are a few reasons why I find them interesting. Firstly because I like seeing people put out an opinion, and seeing if I agree, or if not, why I don't. Secondly I think reviews are what gives a sense of politics to writing about music, whose side is someone on, how original are they, why might they think what they do?

I think in practice, reviews are in an awful shambles, in the sense that the space given to them seems to get smaller and smaller. Nonetheless I do think magazines have a certain influence, I mean if you're a good reviewer people respect what you say despite themselves. Look at the amount of "what is all the fuss about band x" that is out there, not just on ILM but in the real world, people being sort of subservient to hype, even through their hatred for it.

I enjoy writing about music also because I feel some things need to be praised and recorded and other things could do with being rubbished. I don't know if I intend to do it for very long, because the main problem is THE AWFUL AWFUL PAY, and I want to sustain the sort of lifestyle I've grown up with.

There's also another reason why people do it, because it's a job where you get to listen to records, discuss them, go to gigs for free, and have loads of freetime.

(surely it being the most subjective of artforms is a reason why people WOULD want to do it.)

i think you meant to post this on this thread, marcello.

i'd suggest that the fact these two genres are of black origin is becoming more and more irrelevant in today's society (not that it's unimportant in a historical context, just that it no longer really matters given that the audience and indeed performers are right across the board racially and have been for so long) - but maybe that should be on one of those Geir threads...

3. What useful things are there to say about music that can't be said in a few lines in a music forum?
Thanks for reading.
4. Most of the music I love, I have no real desire to read about. I have a desire to read about the lives of the people who created it perhaps, or the
circumstances in which it was made. But no desire to read musical criticism.
Again, thanks for reading.

The same thing that gives you the right to accuse the thread starter of being a racist.

The thinking on this thread is so binary.

no, only by self-appointed snobs and complacent ignoramuses.

jam and lewis "unintellectual"? oh yeah, dem niggaz has got that natural riddim they don't need brains!

For God's sake, no statement about a cultural phenomenon is ever a scientifically proven fact. Do you want me to spell that out every time?

(Marcello, grumpy or not, when you are out for the kill it always makes 1000x more interesting reading than 99 percent of ilx.)

From your post, bemused, you appear to be asking not why someone would "go into music criticism", but, more specifically, why someone would endeavor in a field 1. for reasons other than financial reward; 2. when a 15-year-old's subjective take on the topic should be sufficiently informative/enlightening/interesting/compelling; 3. in apparent denial of the fact that opinions should not be nuanced or complex enough to require more than a few lines to express; and 4. because you, bemused, don't happen to have an interest in reading the results.

well that's certainly another very good way of putting it.

Being abused is not something I find fun, so you get your way, Marcello, and I'll leave things at that.

Then why would you start a thread that is unnecessarily insulting to the way a large number of people on this board see themselves?

I certainly don't think it's acceptable.

You mean you're not familiar with Stockhausen's "Dude, Where's My Ring Modulator?"

I think Marcello has, ahem, shall we say a little robust in his defence of his fellow writers on this thread.

Beyond that, Bemused is somewhat depressingly spot-on.

however, i'm not this much of an idiot

This isn't good enough. Better arguments, less personal attacks, back up your statements. Or look like a pompous and unpleasant buffoon. THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

I myself accosted and duly chastised someone for wearing a vintage Queensryche shirt when, in truth, they didn't even know who Queensryche were (not, mind you, that Queensryche are really worth knowing about, but don't fly the colours if you don't support the cause!)

Perhaps I should turn in my Mets cap.

Marcello, you were the person who attacked Mojo without provocation on the James Brown thread. And can you explain to me how someone can make a 'personal attack' on a magazine/publishing house?

You're making an arse of yourself. Stop it.

Enjoy your goldfish bowl Mojoman.

(not that I'm laughing at Stevie, just think that this comment IN GENERAL was v. funny and chuckled).

Liked the comment, Mark P.

-- Marcello Carlin

Or is it in reference to the "less personal attacks" which you made on IPC Media and the NME in ILM?
-- Marcello Carlin

As for Bemused: There were 36,000 pieces of recorded music released last year. Can you listen to them all, or even a bit of them all? No way. Hence, reviews. I like to think that I'm turning people on to something they wouldn't otherwise hear. I do more previews and features than reviews, but still.

Pop music is not necessarily unintellectual. Actualy, the more I think of it, I have no idea what "unintellectual music" is. I don't think I agree with the statement that Ligeti or Stockhausen compose music that is more intellectual than that of Janet Jackson or Kylie Minogue.
You get a tune in your head and flesh it out, because it makes you feel a certain way and you want it to make others feel that way too. And/or you wake up one morning and decide "I'm going to do it differently today."

Why is pop music unintellectual? The lyrics? Stockhausen et al don't have lyrics at all. Where does that leave them?

-- Marcello Carlin

Or is it in reference to the "less personal attacks" which you made on IPC Media and the NME in ILM?
-- Marcello Carlin

-- lesspersonalattacks? (reall...), February 5th, 2004.

Who is Bonner?

This isn't strictly true asshole - Joke ! Joke ! Joke!

xxxpost

HA HA HA! You can't ride wid us.

Writing about music is good, but cat fights are more entertaining, come on, admit it, that's why we're all posting on this thread and not on any music threads, right? Because we care more about this than music

Violence is cool. And sells! Look at Kill Bill!

No, but possibly more than about the dullard that started this thread

well i suggested a big gay ipc/emap orgy, i think that qualifies

You and me we used to be together
Every day together, always

I really feel that I'm losing my best friend
I can't believe this could be the end

It looks as though you're letting go
And if it's real, well I don't want to know

Don't speak
I know just what you're saying
So please stop explaining
Don't tell me 'cause it hurts
Don't speak
I know what you're thinking
I don't need your reasons
Don't tell me 'cause it hurts

Our memories they can be inviting
But some are altogether mighty frightening

As we die, both you and I
With my head in my hands I sit and cry

Don't speak
I know just what you're saying
So please stop explaining
Don't tell me 'cause it hurts
No no no
Don't speak
I know what you're thinking
And I don't need your reasons
Don't tell me 'cause it hurts

It's all ending
I gotta stop pretending who we are

You and me
I can see us dying, are we?

Don't speak
I know just what you're saying
So please stop explaining
Don't tell me 'cause it hurts
No no
Don't speak
I know what you're thinking
And I don't need your reasons
Don't tell me 'cause it hurts

Don't tell me 'cause it hurts
I know what you're saying
So please stop explaining
Don't speak, don't speak, don't speak, oh
I know what you're thinking
And I don't need your reasons

I know you good, I know you good
I know you real good, oh

Ladadada, ladadadada
Don't! Don't!

Oh, oh
Hush, hush, darling - hush, hush, darling
Hush, hush - don't tell me 'cause it hurts
Hush, hush, darling - hush, hush, darling
Hush, hush - don't tell me 'cause it hurts
Oh
Hush, hush, darling - hush, hush, darling

i haven't brought mojo up at any point, Dave. I just thought, if Marcello feels justified in accusing people of racism on this thread he should justify them further than just abusing the poster, dropping the 'racism' bomb and standing back, thinking its shockingness alone means he doesn't need to explain any further than some knee-jerk student might.

i'm not saying he's entirely wrong in his inference either, but its a severe claim that i don't think the initial post justifies, a grandiloquent, hollow and flouncy gensture that obscures the essence of this argument and twists it in a direction it shouldn't necessarily follow (a la equating Geir of Nazism elsewhere, a hysteric reaction that doesn't get us anywhere nearer to understanding anyone's point). and for this poster to then accuse Bemused's contributions of not being good enough for ILx, and suggesting he leave, seems crazy.

Not that I expect anything further than Mojo vs Uncut yah boo sucksisms and poncey and pointless clarifications of grammar that only confirm the poster emotionally stunted in some eternal psychological sixth-form common room where the ability to repeat Python and Blackadder sketches verbatim enables one to win a debate from Mr Carlin.

Best line ever.

Nah, think of the size of the thing. How you gonna throw it through the window?

yeah, we need more high-quality threads like my salad cream one to really stimulate intellectual discourse...

hmmm.

Yeah but think of the damage it could do

maybe that's what he said to the police. no wonder they pulled his headphones out: "what shit are you listening to? ugly duckling? me and the boys will make you uglier cunt!"

Marcello - have you and I been watching the same channel five 70s British cop shows?

This is true. I mean, if the window's getting some, the wall's fucking asking for it too, innit?

good god you're a prick and a bully.

KEN STOTT AS MARCELLO CARLIN: HE TAKE NO GRIEF AND IF HE DOES - HE'S GOING TO TAKE YOU DOWN.

Cue: Sign behind Marcello, furiously writing his articles in a bedsit with a sign that says: I gotta get organi..z..e..d.

anyway! oi nick hornby! i'll fever your fucking pitch! saturday, 2 o'clock, primrose hill! bring that doss cunt zadie smith with you, i'll batter both of youse with one hand tied behind my back!

while standing on my heid!

I know there is a reason why I only watch channel five!

Stevie, it's called FUN. I realise that is pointless to argue with you because you ARE NEVER WRONG. Ha ha.

1. From a practical perspective, there's no money in it.

Right, but I don't know anyone who writes about music for the money.

2. Popular music is probably the most subjective and unintellectual of all artforms, and is therefore immune to any kind of rigorous discourse. A song can be great/elegiac/sad/etc. purely on the basis that you heard it first when you were 15 years old. How do you argue with that?

People talk about music, so why shouldn't they write about it? I certainly think about music every day. In a review, you're getting a relatively organized collection of my thoughts about some music, and hopefully something to pass your time for about 10 minutes. In the best cases, you'll actually have a response to what I wrote, and email me back or something. I think/hope anyone writing about music loves to discuss it too. Remember, music writing is not a surrogate for listening to music, but usually a whole other experience, just as talking to someone about their summer vacation doesn't have to give you the same kind of thrills as going to Disneyworld yourself.

3. What useful things are there to say about music that can't be said in a few lines in a music forum?

I don't follow this question. "What useful things to say about _____ that can't be said in a few lines in a ______ forum?" You seem to be advocating silence, which if discussion is the whole point, seems, er, pointless.

4. Most of the music I love, I have no real desire to read about. I have a desire to read about the lives of the people who created it perhaps, or the circumstances in which it was made. But no desire to read musical criticism.

So I guess stay away from music criticism. It is kind of disrespectful to question the point of all writing about music when in fact the real issue is you just don't like it yourself. I also don't personally love all music writing, but sometimes I find it very helpful/interesting/funny/perceptive/etc.

irony

Racist.

though i might have darius as my enigmatic, unshaven junior assistant ("are you sure that's wise, inspector?" etc.).

i bought this great '70s orange/brown zigzag blazer pattern suit out of one of the charity shops off goodge street the other day - £35! would be ideal for channel 5!

Marcello goes on a talking head programme. Other music critics talking. Marcello punches one. Camera goes astray. Marcello takes out a gun.

PISS OFF WITH THE LOT OF YE YE WEE TALKING DICKS.

1. I'm not gunna make any money off it.

2. Really- how important is it anyway... anyone can have an opinion and be just as right as me.

3. What can I say that Nom De Plume hasn't already?

4. I like to read about music critics but reading about criticism? Bo-ring.

[Oh man xpost X 29]

well i suggested this to mark lawson and he promised to get back to me.

Racist.

*Marcello pulls out gun*

PISS OFF YE WEE SPOTTY THING!

WAAA!

WHO SENT'YA WAS IT THAT STEVIE CHIXXX'

WAA!

"HEY! YOUSE! I WAANT A WORD WI' YOUSE! YOUSE HAVENAE PAID YER POLL TAX! AH'M ARRESTIN' YOUSE FOR HIVIN' A CRAP TV SHOOOW!"

Racist.

-- Dadaismus (kcoyne3...) (webmail), February 5th, 2004 4:16 PM.

No, he'd deserve a doing if he played for Rangers too.

Marcello: DEREK BAILEY DOES THE SCORE TO THE TELEVISON SHUE OR YOUSE IN TROUBLE.

*shoots a Mojo intern that he took hostage*

Why it's Detective Inspector "Gorgeous" Gail Brand who's fought all her life to be the top woman in a brutal, unforgiving man's world!

Marches purposefully across the room, picks up Evil Chick one-handed (note: she can actually do this)

"Listen to me, sonny boy, I've had more jockey slides lubricated in my life than you've had Cud promos. I'm taking you in. GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?"

(Cut to quivering Chick: "cor leave it out guv innit i'm only an honest robber!")

She marches out again. "Take him in boys. And next time" - clenches teeth, slows down to whisper - "shoot first."

Hm? Oh, okay then.

*Marcello turns around, furiously, storms through the office, all four Uncut employees look up. Lester winces*

Marcello: YOUSE NO NADA LESTER. I'M OUT ON THE STREETS EVERYDAY, KEN. AND YOUSE NOIVER TELLS ME

oh bugger i can't write an accent to save my life - Pashimina to finish it off!

ha ha.

DP: "Now Marcello you know very well that we can't run Pluramon as Album Of The Month without a PR contact..."

MC picks up DP single-fingernailed. Indicates the view from the 25th floor window.

MC: "Now listen you here tae me, pal. See that? See that wee buildin' ower there at the back a' Charing Crooass station? That's a reecord shoap. Youse kin go in an' buy that fucken ulbum fir £12.99! If ye cannae be bothered ah'll gie ye a hand tae get there - I'll THROW you oot this windae, like! Now an' buy that fucken reeekkkird NOO!"

DP: "Don't you want to do a downpager on Minnie Riperton?"

MC: "DON'T YOU MESS WI' ME PAL AH'LL RIPERTON YIR FACE OPEN SO AH WILL!"

(note: this does not quite happen in reality, but is not too far removed from reality in substance)

I wish IPC Media had a rogue seventies cop from channel five. Sample review:

Indie.Arie
Bland Nonsense
Capital
*****

IF YOUSE DON'T LIKE INDIE.ARIE I'LL PERSONALLY COME OVER AND MASH UP YOUSE FACES.

Marcello Carlin

IF YOUSE DON'T LIKE A LUVVIE LIKE AVRIL THEN I'LL PERSONALLY COME OVER AND MASH UP YOUSE FACES.

Marcello Carlin

1. What "useful" projects should talented writers be working on instead?
2. What do you do for a living? Why do you bother?

quote laura nyro a lot around the uncut office and you'll be fine.

Tis be a fun afternoon!

Did you? Haha! I know Bonner.

Are you OK, Marcello?

Perhaps you were turned down for a job and are therefore using this thread to vent your envy at people more talented than you could ever hope to be, or people whose lives are so much better, qualitatively and quantitatively,

three long times!!

fookin' barry!

This is why I write about music.

This is why I read ILx.

This is why some of these posts got frustrating.

On both (binary) sides.

But to each his own. Let's say someone was in his 40s and his main source of income was still a handful of pieces as a junior reviewer in "Uncut" magazine each month. That may look like abject failure to you and me but, believe it or not, it may make him feel like a person of the most extraordinary importance. The capacity to be so very easily pleased is itself a virtue of sorts, and we mustn't be judgemental.

The only defense I have is it's fun sometimes.

It would be so easy to turn this into another personal attack, but let me just try to calmly explain a couple of things to you:

(a) My main source of income is not my writing for Uncut magazine. My main source of income comes from a day job, a rather high-ranking job in the NHS in fact, for which I am paid approximately £80,000 a year. Therefore I don't do the writing for the money (although I have received a lesser, but still five-figure, sum of money as an advance on the book of my first blog which is to be published in September). As you would have known if you'd bothered to read my blogs or anything else I have ever said on this subject on ILx.

(b) "Abject failure"? Again this proves that you know nothing about me. I find it a triumph. Speaking as someone who, two-and-a-half years ago, was ready to kill himself, was ready to pour paraffin all over himself and the flat he shared with his late wife, stood there with the can of paraffin in fact...someone who lost EVERYTHING two-and-a-half years ago, someone who could not BEAR to listen to ANY MUSIC EVER AGAIN...to come out of that situation and rebuild my life, as I have done, to find a new career for myself as a writer, to set up a couple of websites which are now regularly read by the likes of Lindsey Buckingham, John Cale, Bryan Ferry, Kevin Ayers, Kurt Wagner and others (and you understand that I value their opinions above those of a constant sniper such as yourself, who to my knowledge has never had anything published in his life; but that's getting personal, so back to the point), to come back to the world again through my writing about music, to have found a new partner, a new FUTURE, through my writing...and to be able to keep Laura's name alive, to have the Bodleian Library tell me that they're going to order in a special copy of my book when it's out and put it on display in Laura's memory...I don't know about you, but I'd say that was a pretty amazing, gigantic fucking success, hmm?

And to struggle through what I am struggling through NOW (which is my business, not yours) is also an awesome achievement. Oh I could tell you a lot more, I could tell you something that would make you fall to your knees and beg me to forgive you for your insincerity, but I'm not going to bother.

So to sum up, Mr Arf, you don't know me, therefore you have no authority to judge me on anything. As someone else said: "you ain't gonna know me 'cos you think you know me." You don't even know the half of it.

You want the story?

http://cookham.blogspot.com

Go and read that and then come back and tell me I'm an "abject failure."

(btw, Dr C, email me, there's something I need to tell you)

What, and you calling me a racist and a klansman on a public forum is somehow less libellous?

You're a tantrum-throwing child. (sue me!)

And incidentally you have already been told three times to fuck off. How many more times do I have to repeat the message until it is absorbed by the vast, arid desert which is your thick skull?

Pip pip!

Now for the fourth and final time, fuck off and die. Preferably slowly and painfully.

what happened to you was worse than anyone should have to suffer, but FUUUUUCK you're such a prick.

I'm tempted to hang around just because I don't like self-important bullies harrassing me into leaving. But actually I have some work to do. Have fun, don't throw your toys around and do try to treat the other boys nicely!

and blount i hope you get fucking cancer. people like you don't deserve to live.

yes, because its much better to threaten people with physical violence and wish them dead.

?

a) making fun of a person's dead wife is not cool;
b) using someone's tradgey to prove a point on an internet board is not cool.
c) in fact it's damn right despicable, bad taste and whilst you may think 'yay, i've gotten people on my side and i'm going to enforce this point so i'll be heard and be proven right - is so so so not cool'.

Being sarcastic about tradegy is not cool. At all.

i don't think people will, marcello. that's thing about discussion: everyone gets to air their views, no matter how retarded, and just because you don't agree doesn't mean you can flounce and berate and bully and emotionally blackmail people into shutting up.

are you really in your 40s? you behave like a spoilt child.

xpost

i've said it before; if anyone wants to know what the "terrible thing" is then email me and i'll tell you in confidence. i'm not prepared to discuss it on this board.

It's been a tense week, Jim.

Starting with someone sending me an email picture of a former class mate who killed himself and just with weird indecision as to what to do with the Libertines story. I.E. I want to have the copyright and that means I am not going to publish it in a magazine. And being very tired. But capitals are fun.

I've got this idea but its slowly coagulating into something into 'i don't know what but its going to big and fun'. i was nervous because i thought i would not be allowed to go onto the tour if i did not do it up for a magazine. and its always a bit nerve wrecking to say no when you are a fringe element on magazines. but i want to save it and use it for myself.

doomie, most magazines don't expect to own copywright of everything you write; this is one of the reasons i left NME - their freelance contracts were unfeasible, unworkable and unreasonable. you can publish in a magzine and retain copywright, just find someone other than NME to publish it (or browbeat Sutherland into working a different contract for you - Gullick never signed, and so retains copywright of everything he shot for them, giving his photos over on a one-use basis alone) (not that this is necessarily possible for a writer) (but you have rights that are denied to you as an NME writer, and not necessarily elsehwere)

Naw, I'm a fringer and thus my importance is low for magazines. Which is cool. I'm in it for the fun and games. And have become a better writer.

But for this I want to do it independantly and not associate it with any magazine.

trying to compress a weekend on the road with Primal Scream and Icarus Line into 1800 words right now, and it hurts...

And its difficult because I love writing for the NME and really like my two editors that I work with. So I don't want to piss them off. Or the NME. So I'm a bit nervous. And factor in that the Libertines have pissed off every big shot magazine guy in town makes it doubly hard. Whether you like them or not the Libertines play their own game.

I think I worked out a good compromise though. I'm going to give my one editor updates and news if things get weird on the road giving NME some nice stuff. And write up the stuff as it happens. I've got access into the Libertines world like no other journalist at the moment and with this tour and it could be something really big.

You made me laugh myself silly last night when I was shopping on Oxford Street!

Email me when you are back from America. And have a good time!! I want to get yer lazy arse rekkerd shopping with me.

You can tell me I've got downs or something if you are embarrassed!

anyway, there has been some bad news, but it's not as bad as it might have been, and there is also now some good news to counteract it. again it's the kind of thing i really only want to discuss on a one-to-one basis, rather than in a forum or message board.

so profound apologies to everyone who didn't deserve my tongue-lashings. anyway after today you'll have a long break from me!

If you take a break than I will have to take a break! Don't bother. Stick around if something is fun. And contribute. And don't worry about ILX. As you know I've had a pretty bad year 2003 - and I understand how crazy it can get. So stick around and don't feel guilt. NO REGRETS!

Ok. You hybrid bastard. You email me, yeah, when you get back from America? We can see what that lazy bastard Mark S has been up too and hit the shops.

I have no desire to resurrect this unpleasant thread but insofar as I got the facts wrong I owe you an apology, so here it is - sorry, I either misunderstood or misremembered something you said on an earlier thread. My astonishment that an educated man in his forties could have such a pompous sense of his own importance based on writing a few monthly reviews in a magazine like "Uncut" remains undiminished.

-- Jimmy the Saint (00...), February 6th, 2004.

That nails why I often think music journalists are just total fucking leeches.