The rise and rise of urban music :How hip-hop and R&B music took over the pop charts Goodbye Guitar Bans Moaning About Their Girlfriends

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/3459601.stm

The rise and rise of urban music
By Ian Youngs
BBC News Online entertainment staff

Rap and R&B artists Beyonce, Jay-Z and OutKast lead the nominations for this year's Grammy awards, confirming urban music's place at the heart of popular culture.

Justin Timberlake's sound has been shaped by producers like The Neptunes
In little more than 25 years, a new style of music that began as a fringe scene in inner-city America has risen to become arguably the most popular and influential movement in global pop.

The urban scene - broadly covering hip-hop, rap and R&B - is firmly at the heart of mainstream culture in 2004, with its music and imagery impossible to ignore.

Urban music is officially the most popular style in the US - overtaking rock in 2002 and now accounting for 25% of sales.

Another landmark was reached in October 2003 when, for the first time, all the artists with top 10 singles in the US were black.

Producers like The Neptunes, who have worked with the likes of Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake, have shaped the modern pop sound.

And urban artists have dominated the charts, with hip-hop duo OutKast recently spending two months at numbers one and two in the singles chart and on top of the albums chart.

It is not just a US phenomenon - new urban stars have won the UK's Mercury Music Prize for the best album of the year for the last two years, while even Prince Charles is getting in on the act, hosting an urban music festival in May.

Middle America has totally embraced urban music in the last 12 months, according to Toussaint Davy, editor of Tense magazine.

"When you have people like Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera working with rappers and prominent producers, it's only a matter of time before it starts filtering down to everyone else," he says.

"The thing about hip-hop is that it's a very dynamic form of expression and you can't really hold back progress."

The music's pace and style suits today's fast consumer-led culture, he says - and it is now the musical heritage of all America, not just young black inner-cities.

Prince Charles is to host an urban music festival in London
Chris Blenkarn, deputy editor of urban magazine Touch, says a new generation of fans is now coming through.

"They've obviously grown up listening to hip-hop and R&B and they're doing their own thing with it."

While more established styles like pop and rock have few new ideas to explore, this young street music is still evolving and experimenting.

"It's the most exciting thing out there, it's doing fresh things, it's not just some guys with GUITARS moaning about their girlfriends," Mr Blenkarn says.

"That's why people like it - because it's doing something fresh and it's always pushing boundaries that other types of music aren't."

This pattern of evolution - with black music being adopted by the mainstream - has been around since jazz and blues spread in the early 20th Century.

Victoria Beckham has teamed up with hip-hop producer Damon Dash
But modern hip-hop music was born in the mid-1970s when the vibrant funk, disco and soul scenes collided - helped by rapidly developing technology that spawned synthesisers and drum machines.

R&B music has taken a different path, growing out of the soul of the 1960s and 70s, with a more sleek and romantic sound.

But the two styles have now come together, giving R&B a harder edge and, in turn, making hip-hop more polished and commercial.

Beyonce, a R&B singer, and rapper Jay-Z found this formula worked very well when their collaboration Crazy in Love became a global smash in 2003.

'Rewrites the rules'

And the excitement and innovation is likely to last for some time, Mr Davy says.

"Sometimes I think 'has it all run out of steam?'" he says.

"And then you hear something like Beyonce's tune and it rewrites the rules. And it transcends all barriers.

"It's never going to stop - the more people get involved with the dynamism of the music, the more the music will move on."

― Jack Benjamin, Saturday, 7 February 2004 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

confirming urban music's place at the heart of popular culture

"This reporter then looked up to confirm the sky was blue, asked the Pope if he was Catholic and observed a bear defecating in the woods."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 7 February 2004 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I love articles where every sentence deserves a new paragraph.

Don't you?

It really makes for exciting reading.

I think so anyway.

That is all.

― Nick H (Nick H), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

EXPLAIN NICKELBACK.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"People enjoy chocolate ice cream! Hence, vanilla ice cream is no more!"

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

what an unfortunate metaphor. urban music=chocolate ice cream?

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

what's unfortunate about it?

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owlive/img/feb03/rkellybig022103.jpg

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

and didn't the barenaked ladies announce that "vanilla is the finest of the flavors" in what is easily one of the least urban rap songs of all time?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

OMG Blanket statements about (white people) (rock) music!!!!

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

where?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Prince Charles is to host an urban music festival in London
now this excites me.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

"and then I hear something like Beyonce's tune and say...hey! trumpets! Trumpets are back! Better write an article about it."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

"urban" ha-ha.

― briania, Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe they mean this Prince Charles...

http://www.rockpalastarchiv.de/concert/gif2/pcharles00.jpg

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Not to rain on anyones parade, but surely it can only go downhill from here, no?

― Siegbran (eofor), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

"Urban" is not a style of music but a marketing term. It pisses me off when writers can't tell the difference.

― JoB (JoB), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe the "urban" variation on a "Lilith Fair" is in order.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

"It's the most exciting thing out there, it's doing fresh things, it's not just some guys with GUITARS moaning about their girlfriends," Mr Blenkarn says.

Why couldn't they just be positive about Hip Hop without having to be negative about rock? If it was the other way around I'm sure there'd be 1000X more complaints.

Although he was pretty spot on about current mainstream rock, I still resent the broad generalization.

― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

In little more than 25 years ... has risen to become arguably the most popular and influential movement in global pop.
25 years is a long time! Rock music staged its takeover a lot faster than that.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I was about to complain about the term "urban". Not only is it not a style of music, but it seems to me you can apply it to any music being made by young black people. Jazz? URBAN. Hip-hop? URBAN. Pop music? URBAN.

― Stupid (Stupid), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

it's not just some guys with GUITARS moaning about their girlfriends

And the number one single for weeks has been HEY YA, which features a guy with a guitar moaning about how he and his girlfriend don't know HOOOOOWWWW to get along.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

2004: "Rock Is Dead!"

2006: "Urban Is Dead!"

2009: "Chamber Music Is Dead!"

― Barima (Barima), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

2012:
Interviewer: "I'm here now with ...And The Majestic Oceanic Gods Of Light, the latest band to emerge from the 'post-music' scene."

― Stupid (Stupid), Saturday, 7 February 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

People need to be more negative about rock in print, the reason people would get annoyed if it was the other way round would be because those responsible would be ignorant and wrong.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

ronan otm

― $$, Saturday, 7 February 2004 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

from what I'm hearing on the radio, the last thing rock needs is to have its persecution complex justified.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"Maybe the "urban" variation on a "Lilith Fair" is in order.

-- Anthony Miccio (anthonymicci...), February 7th, 2004.(later)"

well there is that missy,beyonce and alicia keys tour

*ducks*

― robin (robin), Saturday, 7 February 2004 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

This entire thread makes me want to blow up the world.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

...and everyone on it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

ROCK!

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

GASP!
http://www.marko.net/phish/nrvmain/shocked.gif

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Fuckin' Cobain did more to fuckin' ruin rock for the rest of the world just by being such a pathetic stereotype.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

true that, actually

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Barkeep! One beer for Antoine, please!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I was under the impression that rock music rather liked its position as the misunderstood outsider?

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 7 February 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Outsider maybe, but as Eric Burdon put it, "please don't let me be misunderstood." Though Cobain definitely liked being misunderstood. Or else his lyrics would have been more audible.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

though of course that's a thoroughly personal perspective. I don't think "rock" has a real coherent thread running through it, especially since its been blurring with R&B and pop and hip-hop for a while now.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

This is a huge fucking revelation eh?

I mean for godsake, they were writing this shit about Lauren Hill what...10 years ago?
And before that, MC Hammer...

etc. etc. etc.

Who is this audience that this guy is writing to exactly?

and yeah I have a problem with this "urban" music thing.

is all the crunk stuff invading the airwaves "urban"?

― djdee2005, Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

it's just so sad and pathetic, the "rock is dead" trope - if rock had spent this much of its energy making a big deal about how it displaced jazz in the marketplace, how sad would that have been? ...admittedly it kind of did, vide "Long Live Rock"/"I Wanna Rock"/"Rock and Roll All Nite"/"Love is a Rock, but the Radio Rolled Me"/ad lib. Still. The "hurrah we are finally displacing rock!" contingent is now fronting like its tenth victory lap were somehow a surprise to the public at large.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This pattern of evolution - with black music being adopted by the mainstream - has been around since jazz and blues spread in the early 20th Century.

Is this seen to be true? I mean, personally I find most of the music I listen to is "black" (not R&B or hip-hop though - eurgh) and the music considered "white" (indie-rock etc) doesn't really do much for me, but something about this assertation seems a bit too apologist. Though I don't know my music history well enough to argue it.

Music has always seemed, to me, to be a fairly linear progression, with few *major* revolutions (i.e. a musical style appearing with almost NO connection to music that has gone before), with everything influencing everything else.

So is it actually that "white" music steals from "black" music, or is this a simplification? Are there any good examples of the opposite happening? I'm not trying incite a big debate about racism here... I'm just interested in ILMs opinions.

― search and delete, Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Uhhh...well for one thing, its been going on since the first slaves were brought here. Not the "early 20th century."

― djdee2005, Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The day the urbans took over...

― sym (shmuel), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

i think rock music problem has always been a conflicted attitude about success. does it want to be the mainstream, or does it want to be the rebel. of course it wants to be both, but thats a difficult tightrope to walk. over recent decades this hasnt been helped by its predominantly middle class make up, the politics of fear.

tallis, surely the attitude of "we killed rock" that you describe is only prevalent on internet message boards such as this one, with a high proportion of indie (or ex-indie if you like) members, surely on the streets of leicester and baltimore this isnt the case?

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Second, popular music in this country is pretty much entirely based upon folk forms primarily created by Black Americans, I believe.

― djdee2005, Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Stepper OTM
Bonecrusher isn't going around bragging about how he eradicated Modest Mouse or Creed

― sym (shmuel), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, go to any bar in anytown usa/uk, who are you going to say "this killed rock" to? who is going to even know what you are talking about?

surely, more interesting (in the terms of this arguemnt at least) is the acceptance of 'mainstream pop/r&b' within the indie world, something relatively recent, and surely unthinkable pre-99?

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the segregation of music was really prevalent when I was 14-16 in the early mid 90s. You had to choose between Kurt and Snoop. I feel a lot of regret about not appreciating rap at the time (because of peer pressure!). Seems to me that ppl and teens before 1990 actually did listen to white music AND black music. So we're just returning to the natural state of being in liking mainstream R & B.

― sym (shmuel), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

There was also a real unthinking "mainstream legs bad" attitude propagated by the AltRock world at the time. It's all Kurt Cobain's fault, people.

― sym (shmuel), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

>"That's why people like it - because it's doing something fresh and it's always pushing boundaries that other types of music aren't."

What bullshit. Hip-hop is as reactionary a form of music as there's ever been. Omnivorousness is not the same thing as creativity.

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought dance was dead, not rock?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I see what Phil is saying. But a) Experimentalism != good
b) Timbaland does in fact take a lot more musical risk than Chad Kroeger.

― sym (shmuel), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"It's the most exciting thing out there, it's doing fresh things, it's not just some guys with GUITARS moaning about their girlfriends," Mr Blenkarn says.

And far be it for me to extrapolate, but surely this article is just the BBC's *youth* department basically saying "No, no, no STOP LISTENING TO BANDS WITH GUITARS IN. THEY ARE GAY. LOOK, WE'VE GOT THE DREAM TEAM FOR YOU TO LISTEN TO. STOP TURNING OVER TO RADIO 2". Their inability to notice any actually seismic shifts in British music over the past, oooh, nine years, is why Radio 1 is haemoragghing viewers.

(I mean, Snow Patrol get to #6, P Diddy gets to #36- is this urban music's great triumph?)

(Also, this week, John Squire is going to chart higher than Obie Trice. That's JOHN FUCKING SQUIRE. That's an ex-member of the fucking Seahorses. Geez).

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

>Timbaland does in fact take a lot more musical risk than Chad Kroeger.

Ah, there's a fair comparison. Lowest-common-denominator Canuck crap vs. the one genuine innovator in an entire genre (at present).

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Dom are you saying rock is selling more records even though it isn't because of P Diddy being beaten by Snow Patrol?

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

stepper - on internet message boards, sure, but also in the press (roughly equal to "expensive internet message boards") - and realistically, too - I mean it's not inaccurate to say that rock, while still of course around and viable for plenty of people, is somewhat dated, carries a whiff of the old guard, etc. Better I should say "the 'rock is dead' trope beloved of those journalists/messageboard folx who favor it is ideologically mighty similar to 'long live rock 'n' roll!"

vide Ronan's xpost - he's very keen on the "dance music is bigger! deal with it!" thing

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

the one genuine innovator in an entire genre (at present).

One geniune innovator!? Lil Jon? Neptunes? El-P? Not innovative? And that's just innovative PRODUCTION.
Innovative rappers...Ludacris, Ghostface (check out his recent underground stuff esp), etc.

― djdee2005, Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Ronan- rock was the biggest selling genre in the UK last year.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

check out his recent underground stuff esp

We can't check out the underground stuff, that would mean that hip-hop isn't triumphant everywhere, and since it is triumphant there is no underground. Er, wait.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

What genre boundaries made that one happen?

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think rock is dead, I think the reason people do what Thomas complains about is because they know this and because they perhaps wish it was dead, or at least ceased to be treated as the most important genre, by critics.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

#1 rock/indie albums of 2003: Linkin Park, White Stripes, Evanescence, Blur, Stereophonics, Radiohead, The Darkness, The Coral, Muse, REM.

#1 urban albums of 2003: Kelly Rowland, Beyonce, err....

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

albums aren't representative of anything, nobody sings albums in the shower.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

No, they're only representative of the music people buy. Perhaps we should judge musical success on how often the songs are used in BBC 1 trailers?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Or played on the radio?

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Taking sides: the entire population of the UK versus "Dangerous" Dave Pearce.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

isn't radio's obsolescence an even more done-deal than rock's?

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it?

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Radio 1's is, particularly. However, Petridis finally got something right (dog's ass/sun) when he pointed out that Britian's most influential DJ at the moment is Michael Parkinson (but that's another thread).

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

the penultimate letter in "obsolescence" is silent obviously, it's my new band's name, we're trying & failing to make a comment about the death of our SCENE

as I'm in the U.S. my take on radio is probably lots different from yours

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

played on radio = marketing push
albums bought = better indicator

those albums suck though

― searchanddelete, Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I'm less bothered by the various perceptions about rock's role in regards to its status with the mainstream and more by the contemptuous, arrogant, smug-ass, self-satisfied toldja-so tone of the article.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah one seldom finds that tone in the rock press regarding "urban" music.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

That tone is used in the rock press JUSTIFIABLY!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

QED.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(unapologetic rockist, I)

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

two wrongs don't make a right, etc

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

so when does trife set his guns on mr. freeman?

fwiw, and surprisingly to me, i'm more on ronan's side here than alex's. i'd take the r&b/hiphop/urban/whatever 2003 best-sellers over the rock 2003 best-sellers any day. thank nu-metal, pop-punk, and indie-rock-whiner v.2003 for that.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

it's not wrong to challenge the critical prominence of rock really is it? mocking rock is not as damaging as mocking dance, mainly because most people mocking rock actually like it.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll be curious to see if people are still listening to Jay-Z in the years to come with the same fervor in which his (arguable) merits are so fawning extolled today. I'm not saying he won't be, just that I'm curious if he will be. Will the shelf-life of his music endure? Personally, I doubt it, but I'm not a fan.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 7 February 2004 23:59 (twenty-two years ago)

...or will he be tomorrow's Axl Rose?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(i.e. once top of the heap, now virtually erased by history, apart from being a punchline)

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Though, to be fair, people do still listen to (some) Guns'n'Roses.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I am too.

I don't think Jay Z will be the next Axl Rose. But if he will be, will that be a good thing?

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

he's a bit more than a punchline, at least when "Sweet Child O' Mine" gets played in a bar. Though I don't know if that'd be the case if his best song was called "R.O.S.E."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex how on earth does what will happen or be recorded culturally in the next 5, 10, 20 years, have any bearing on the quality of an artist. Do you really trust the history books that much?

And if Jay Z won't be remembered you can bet a massive reason for that is the lack of respect and coverage given to hiphop by the historians, in this case music critics. Another reason might be that music which is dynamic and vibrant doesn't depend heavily on heroes and a cult of the superstar, and endless history lessons.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

But if he will be, will that be a good thing?

My guess is that despite saying he's never going to record another album, ....once he sees his star inevitably fading, he'll reverse himself and crank another one out with all stealth.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

well but Alex that's not a fair comparison. I won't be eating the Nasi Goreng I'm having for dinner in ten years - if there's any of it left by then it'll be moldy and awful. But it's going to be exquisitely yummy tonight. "The test of time" is a freakin' red herring to end all red herrings, and reliance on its particular trope is one of the thing that has made rock (and lots of great art, too) really unpopular with people who dislike canons, being talked down to, etc.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

...I mean, if only things that last for ten years are good, why have sex?

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex how on earth does what will happen or be recorded culturally in the next 5, 10, 20 years, have any bearing on the quality of an artist. Do you really trust the history books that much?

Fair question, Ronan, but consider the tone of the article, i.e. "Rock is Dead," etc., once again aluding to the past, and hailing the perceived successor/usurper to the throne, thus looking towards the future.

This also gets into the whole notion of "timelessness," and whether it has any place in a discussion about the merits of rock/pop music.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Gotta goto dinner. back later!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

sometimes, the mold can be tasty ... see blue cheese. and you can't have beer w/t yeast!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

sure! I'd say my argument is just that while endurance can be a great quality, it's by no means THE yardstick. and to say "well this won't last" says nothing at all about something's quality, or at least doesn't necessarily do so.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Canons rock.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 8 February 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

popular music in this country is pretty much entirely based upon folk forms primarily created by Black Americans, I believe.

Is this really true? It seems to completely ignore the huge contribution of Bluegrass, Western Swing, Hilly-Billy/Mountain string bands, white gospel music, etc.

But that's sort of off topic.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 8 February 2004 02:17 (twenty-two years ago)

People need to be more negative about rock in print, the reason people would get annoyed if it was the other way round would be because those responsible would be ignorant and wrong.
-- Ronan (ronan.fitzgerald...), February 7th, 2004.

Saying all rock is "Guitar Bands Moaning About Their Girlfriends" is exactly the same as saying "All rap is about bitches and hoes."

― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 8 February 2004 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Saying all rock is moaning about girls is affirmative action

― sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

MAN, is it really necessary to disect every single sentence? The article is totally myopic, not to mention retarded. The end.

― Playa Hata, Sunday, 8 February 2004 05:57 (twenty-two years ago)

the rock is dead trope is something that rock audiences tend to dislike because of perceived central primacy. i think it annoys rock audiences because it is indicative of a dismissiveness that they have used on other genres, which is now being used back on rock.

in actuality it is more likely no that rock is dead, but that rock has had to give up its central primacy in the media, and that it is one of a number of forms, a musical oligarchy in the media if you like.

sadly the claims about dance music being dead hit closer to home, at least in terms of cultural relevance

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Sunday, 8 February 2004 10:31 (twenty-two years ago)

the problem with this article, as i see it, is that if it is in terms of america, then it neglects to mention country music at all, and if it is in britain it doesnt point out that almost all the artists they mention are american, which could lead to a different conclusion, that british music is dead, and that american music has taken over. im not saying i either agree or disagree with that assertion, but it could be drawn from the evidence they submit

also, there seems to be an equation of innovation with relevance. while they may overlap, it doestn mean they are equivalent, the way this article seems to suggest

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Sunday, 8 February 2004 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

popular music in this country is pretty much entirely based upon folk forms primarily created by Black Americans, I believe.

Van Morrison to thread....

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Sunday, 8 February 2004 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

British music dead? how could anybody even entertain such a thought when we have Coldplay and Dido selling so well??!?!?!

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

you only have to watch the latest late-night music strand on Channel 4 aka THE COLIN MURRAY FUCK WHAT SHALL WE DO NOW? SHOW to see how rock is considered to be the main course (and fuck the starters, too many E numbers) more than it has been for years, which strikes me as somewhat desperate but then a resurgence has been engineered in accordance with natural cycles of what's popular in music.

Dangerous Dave Pearce probably has as much to do with LMC vs U2 (DANCE MEETS ROCK! THEY SAID IT COULDN'T HAPPEN DO YOU SEE?) being number 1 in the UK as Ken Bruce and Terry Wogan have to do with the success of Katie Melua and Gary Jules - i.e. quite a bit

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Playa Hata is very very OTM

― sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes stringent stepper's suggestion that rock doesn't have central primacy in the media is fairly off the wall.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll be curious to see if people are still listening to Jay-Z in the years to come with the same fervor in which his (arguable) merits are so fawning extolled today.

More ppl than will be listening to Killing Joke, I'm sure. Which doesn't prove that Jay is better, but does show the pointlesness of this type of argument.

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i meant central primacy in terms of television, newspapers, celebrity magazines, the stuff people actually see, rather than the music press

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

but NME and Q influence all TV, newspapers and slebmags rep of rock music

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The Serious Press is pro-rock, and the Fluffy Press is pro-urban

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

that is to say when NME says something ("rock is back and this is an exciting time for music PRIMARILY as a result of that - but pop and this newfangled urban shizness is quite good fun too, if only we could dance without looking like complete idiots") then everyone else in the mainstream media concurs

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I think central primacy in those areas only fuels the fire in some respect, since it's not uncommon to hear "oh tv, celeb magazines, it's all image based rubbish" etc. Perhaps when something is commercially big this is inevitable though, the lack of critical primacy.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

So many people I know who just like "urban" or whatever constantly almost apologise for it. I mean you're introduced to someone and you mention you're a big music fan and they're all "Oh I like crap music" etc, I think the message does filter down to even fans of urban or pop music.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 8 February 2004 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

That's their problem, not the music's. Maybe they should stop hanging out with people who look down their noses at them for liking the "wrong" music.

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Sunday, 8 February 2004 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh I totally agree Lee, but it still means that message has some kind of effect, what I'm saying is the falsehood that pop is stupid music or of less intellectual value by default is fairly well established.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 8 February 2004 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Would it be true to say that pop stars nowadays aim for public celebrity and rock stars nowadays aim for peer recognition?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Sunday, 8 February 2004 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

yes.

― jole, Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

but then it's weird how rock stars continue to hook up with Hollywood actresses for actual relationships (the one thing that connects Jack White, Fred Durst AND Chris Martin perhaps) but Justin only wants a roll in the proverbial hay, and most stars in the 'urban' domain DON'T end up dating Halle Berry or whoever.

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Er um well what about Sean's dalliance with J.Lo?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

And Will Smith & Jada Pinkett? (I'm not even sure these are exceptions...)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Doesn't Eric Benet count as an "urban" artist then?

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

heh, obviously not - he's certainly not a 'popular' one

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i meant 'apparently' not 'obviously' there - my point was i think i disagree with what Tom suggested and if anything it may even be the other way round or at least just the same

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Though, to be fair, people do still listen to (some) Guns'n'Roses.

Yeah but nobody really takes them seriously, right? A better question might be if Missy, Nelly and Jay-Z are today's equivalents of Young MC, MC Hammer and Skee-Lo or are they/will they be more than that?

― Siegbran (eofor), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

well Hammer was huge but i'm not sure the other two really progressed beyond just having one novelty hit so it's un unfair comparison kinda.

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn. This thread really took off overnight.

More ppl than will be listening to Killing Joke, I'm sure. Which doesn't prove that Jay is better, but does show the pointlesness of this type of argument.

Citing Killing Joke in this argument is sort've moot, as they were never a band that were going to be widely popular, but they do trounce the argument that all guitar based rock bands sing about girlfriends (Kiling Joke have nary such a song in their entire catalog).

But, the tone of the article above, once again, basically asserts that time's have changed and that the likes of Beyonce & Jay-Z et al. are here to stay. (i.e. a long shelf life).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

does this mean Killing Joke never ever had girlfriends?

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Ultimately, this is much ado about nothing. Rock fans are bristlilng at the notion that their favorite music is being slighted, passed off as dated and no longer valid/dominant/relevant, while fans of Hip Hop/R'n'B and contemporary pop/rock that is steeped in the trappings of Hip Hop/R'n'B are asserting a new order wherein they are happily denouncing the old guard (whitey guitar-based rock). I doubt either side is entirely correct, and there is no one answer that will satiate either side.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

How can that be?

Isn't Geordie married? He was the most attractive though. I liked his look when he had a lot more hair. Kind of funny.

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Killing Joke had girlfriends, alright. The main reason original drummer Paul Ferguson and vocalist Jaz Coleman no longer speak is over a girl, actually. They just found no need to sing about girls/romance, as there were more than enough people doing that already.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's not make this about Killing Joke, please.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Is that the reason Paul Ferguson isn't in the band any more?

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

What did I just say?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Speaking terms.

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

You don't have to speak to drum.

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha I really never should have picked that particular example

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Comparing Jay-Z and Missy to MC Hammer or Guns N Roses is preposterous.

Jay-Z's had 7 albums, the majority of which were critically acclaimed.
He has affirmed his place in the hip hop "canon."

― djdee2005, Sunday, 8 February 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Who can we compare him too? The Red Hot Chilli Pepers?

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Jay-Z's longevity is already incredibly remarkable by hip-hop standards

Tho Guns N' Roses are a bad example of a one-hit wonder as well

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Who can we compare him too? The Red Hot Chilli Pepers?

uhh...if you wanted to.
I'm not sure I get the parallel...his musical accomplishments certainl surpassed theirs.

― djdee2005, Sunday, 8 February 2004 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

How about Queen or...Oh, U2?

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

It's Killing Joke fans that don't have girlfriends.

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Sunday, 8 February 2004 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

What are you talking about?

When I went to their concert, there were guys with their girlfriends!

And Alex is married. Did you not hear about the baby?

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Aja really is the kid from Bad Santa, isn't she?

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i've seen a few references to jaz coleman on ilm and elsewhere and always thought it was the name of that guy out of babylon zoo

― robin (robin), Sunday, 8 February 2004 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

have killing joke ever written a spherical song?

― robin (robin), Sunday, 8 February 2004 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Aja really is the kid from Bad Santa, isn't she?

I am not. I didn't even see that movie. Can someone tell me what the similarity is? Please?

have killing joke ever written a spherical song?

What would a spherical song sound like?

― Aja (aja), Sunday, 8 February 2004 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

It's Killing Joke fans that don't have girlfriends.

Easy there, big man.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 8 February 2004 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

this is an interesting argument.

if anything it points out how the media landscape has changed in the past decade and how ill-equipped EVERYONE is to comment on exactly how it works anymore. the 'new-media explosion' (i know, ick) means that tracking any sense of 'primacy' or real effect of one channel or medium over another results in...threads like these.

the article (w/o having read it too closely) is fulla shit mainly for its desire to PUT something at the center (gotta be something!) when there just isn't anymore. there's a reason media people use the word 'balkanization' re this kind of thing, they get freaked out about there not being just one thing they have to keep tabs on, and imagine all kinds of conflict btw these zones when i think they're really more-or-less happily autonomous (rap-hating radio promo spots notwithstanding) (actually those are withstanding)

― g--ff (gcannon), Sunday, 8 February 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

FWIW, I listen to Guins 'N Roses seriously.

― anode (anode), Sunday, 8 February 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I listen to them dressed in a clown suit. Alternately I listen to Snoop Doggy Dogg dressed as a priest.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 8 February 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Or Lil' Kim while dressed as a pastor

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 8 February 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

That article was a big cup of pish. The magazine that I work for has always covered whatever's hype/happening regardless of genre, by employing writers who want to cover things across genres. Right now it's all about Usher and Franz Ferdinand. On the same office stereo.

Back in the mid-90s my editor told me that most of her attempts to put 'R&B' in the magazine were totally frustrated by PRs and managers with ridiculous demands about being on the cover (behaviour that was tolerated in the US) way before time.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 8 February 2004 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

The idea that just because hip-hop is an all-crushing juggernaut that rock suddenly is meaningless to those who still enjoy it is as offensive as saying that because ROCK, and specifically, the ROCK ALBUM was king 10 years ago that all the hip-hop songs from the early 90s didn't and never will matter.

It's simply untrue, and saying so is stupid.

That's all I have to say. g--ff OTM.

― edward o (edwardo), Monday, 9 February 2004 05:46 (twenty-two years ago)

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The rise and rise of urban music :How hip-hop and R&B music took over the pop charts Goodbye Guitar Bans Moaning About Their Girlfriends - BBC Article