Dizee Rascal: Overrated?

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Can a guy from London with a mouth full of marbles make it in the States? Me thinks he'll suffer the same fate of Craig David. Why is that?

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

short answer: yes!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think he'll do very well in the States commercially, but I feel pretty comfortable on the bandwagon.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Has the Stateside Hip Hop audience ever warmed to a British rapper?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

are you asking if he's overrated or if he'll make it in the states? or both?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

He's certainly overrated.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Who are the British rap artists that the US hip-hop crowd has had a chance to embrace?

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Has the Stateside Hip Hop audience ever warmed to a British rapper?

Slick Rick might have a few things to say about that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

He has great beats for sure, but his rhyme/rap skills are still a little lacking. I can't believe some critics are comparing his skills to Tupac.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Slick Rick was UK-born, but US-raised...?

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh Jesus Christ, we've done this thread ten million times already. Playa Hata, I'm seriously hating on you right now for not using the 'search' function at the bottom of every page.

Dizzy Rascal: what drugs are you guys on?
Not sure about Dizzee Rascal ...

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

and obviously Slick Rick got huge only because everyone knew he was US raised, even though his accent was British as fuck.

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

when jess reads this thread he is going to flip out.

― Former Supposed So Called Nihilist Teenage Drug Disco Addiction Counselor (mjt), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I get what I'm supposed to admire about Dizzee, but I don't get what I'm supposed to enjoy (let alone what I'm supposed to find exceptional about him). Eccentric beats are fine if they still hold the attention, and nothing on the album really grabs me. I kinda dig the second track cuz it makes me want to play Super Mario Bros and that "Fix Up, Look Sharp" holds my attention the most (despite the fact that I've only parsed the lyric "bliggity blap bliggity BLOHP") reaffirms that they're probably saying grime isn't rap for the same reason they (and I'm stealing this from xgau) said Paul McCartney was pop - because he doesn't rock. Of the tracks I've bothered to listen closely to I've caught enough romantic frustration that I get why Jess digs him, but nothing he says strikes me as particularly unique or unusually resonant. I'm no Anglophile, I don't hunger for something different and I'm surprised so many people (or at least so many critics) couldn't find 10 albums that affected them more strongly this year.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

He'll definitely be more critically acclaimed than Craig David

― Sym (shmuel), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't have time for that shit. Besides, which of these threads haven't been done a million times? And what about people who didn't respond to them in the first place? Myself included. Just don't answer, asshole.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

we are still waiting for monie love to stage a comeback.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

(Although I will admit that had Slick Rick tried to make it in the U.S. had his family NOT moved to the U.S. but remained in the UK, his aesthetic would have been possibly different enough to make a difference)

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

now there was a real talent.

― Former Supposed So Called Nihilist Teenage Drug Disco Addiction Counselor (mjt), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Ladies and gentleman - Playa Hata, sure to be a fine addition to the board.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

The rhymes (and beats!) on Slick Rick's debut are so much funnier, more memorable, and more perverse than Dizzee's that the comparison reaffirms my bafflement at the acclaim this gets. I can see the promise here, and I can see why that would excite, but I don't really see the actual GOODS.

And Craig David's "Fill Me In" and "Seven Days" still get lots of love from the local pop station, and for good reason.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Broheems, my pleasure indeed. Leave already!

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

this was a good one:

Does anyone find it veeeeery odd it's taken the english so long to catch on to hiphop?

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

well playa hata, you can always revive old threads. but no, i'm not particularly bothered by threads that have already been done, i've set some up myself. i think "will he make it in the states?" is a marginally more interesting thread than "is he overrated?"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

what you're "supposed" to enjoy? it's staring you right in the face - the flow is ill, the beats are sick, the album is the fucking bomb. it's not that complicated. it seems 99% of peeps who want to jump through all these hoops just to diss / attempt to like Dizzee have to listen to hours of uk garage in order to understand its groove, etc.

bah.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean why should I get excited about troof when I've been hearing "truth" since I was in 4th grade? Why should I get excited about nine millimeters ending debates when in American songs the guns actually GO OFF?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I did by accident catch him on that MTV Advanced Warning show last night and he does seem like a really pleasant guy. Though I don't see that video skyrocketing up the Direct Effect top 5. Especially if Busta Rhymes doesn't show up much anymore (I think Dan's the only person I've heard make that comparison, and I tip my hat to him).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree, Anthony, which I think why Dizzee won't make a peep in the States, other than with critics.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha the host of Advanced Warning actually said "the critics love him and maybe you should too." His accent on the word maybe really surprised me.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Honestly, if some kid from the Bronx produced that in his basement, no one would give it a second listen.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

And just in case I'm playing up my lack of Anglophilia, I'm not particularly excited by 50 Cent either (though "In Da Club" has a great beat and usually everything I hear by that guy has at least ONE line that makes me glad I've heard the song).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Whaa? What does a lack of Anglophilia have to do with Fitty? Am I missing something?

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure if DB was actually calling me out on a pedantic point regarding some clarification of a question I raised regarding Alex's vaguely silly question about artist lineage which piggybacked the initial query that started all this lovin' off, because if you are, bitch, I'm crushing your head!

DB's 2nd post (about the possible impact Slick Rick's stateside upbriging JUST MIGHT HAVE HAD on him) was what I was thinking about when I asked for Slick Rick clarification from the judges.

My initial question was serious, tho - what UK-based MCs have had success in the US? And what US-based MCs have had success in the UK? Is there a cultural divide that works both ways to prevent artists that are nation-centric (PLEASE, someone, think of a better word than that dash-addled asscrap) to find success overseas?

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

U&K: Ignore my CAPS LOCK LUV on JUST MIGHT HAVE HAD, FYI. OK!

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Craig David had hits and sold a couple mil over here, why the fuck would you make the comparison if you don't think Dizzee will take off?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I get what I'm supposed to admire about Dizzee, but I don't get what I'm supposed to enjoy

The same thing you enjoy about Corin Tucker, plus a little bit of what you enjoy about Jay-Z, combined with the fact that he's more sui generis than either of them (ok, maybe he isn't at all, but i'm ignorant enough that he is in my world).

He's not overrated, though he is emo. His album is only if you think it's like an A+ or something.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

way late xpost (sorry)

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

haha Limp Bizkit has hits in the UK!

and for those who've been playing along on other threads, where Kish Kash actually PISSED ME OFF, because I felt the production sabotaged the singers, this album doesn't actually rankle me or anything. It makes decent background music. I'm just waiting for someone to give a positive review that doesn't sound like an anthropological study (though Harvell's "I'm feeling your heartbreak, Dizzee" stuff works for me).

Also, I know "Big Beat" is a popular rap sample (or so I read!), but I'm ign'nt enough about old school rap that I don't actually know WHO has sampled it before Dizzee. Help me out?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

gabbneb, I have NO IDEA what Corin Tucker and Dizzee have in common (unless it's like, PAIN, or something - in which case I don't see why specifically she is being brought up)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Grime does not pay. (Sorry, I'm full of bad puns today. Carry on.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

and Jay-Z, if I have any love for him, I love for the beats (or the non-emo stuff like "Change Clothes" and "Can I Get A...").

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Craig David had one minor hit MONTHS after his Stateside release, yet the same hype circled Craig David. David was reduced to a one-hit wonder. (His second album did NOTHING). It's a perfect comparison in terms of hype and the return on said hype.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

And WK, watch you language and show some respect.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Miccio try UTFO "Roxanne, Roxanne" (over the "I don't like your rap cuz your rap is dead / educated rapper, no sense in your head" part) and RUN DMC "Here We Go" for starters.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

the only reason that the David comparison rankles me is that stateside David at the very least had hits. In fact, I'd argue his two hits rang louder than the hype. This isn't (or to be nice, has not YET) been the case with Dizzee.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks, Broheems!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

The Corin connection - young person discovering their voice
The Jay-Z connection - the "non-emo stuff"

or how about the fact that he loves what he's doing?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, as I said, I admire that. What I enjoy about Corin is what she DOES (emotional, lyrical and musical hooks), rather than what she's trying to do.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

True. And given that Dizzee doesn't yet have hits, perhaps it wasn't the best. (But I still think in terms of press hype/critical acclaim, they're similar. And Dizzee will be as quickly forgotten as Craig David). But in terms of Mercury-Prize-winning hype in England versus recognition in the States, maybe Roni Size would be a better example.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The American mob loves played-out sounding shit. Dizzee is neither ridiculously derivative, nor shit. Mainstream America will reject him. And who cares?

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

uh, since when was critical darling supposed to be synonymous with commercial success?

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

haha I've actually been thinking about Roni Size too!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

anthony the jury's still out on whether you've been thinking about dizzee.

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Daver, I was semi-calling you out. The notion that Slick Rick's split US/UK childhood -- specifically that he was at least semi U.S. -- was the crux of his success I thought seemed a bit ridiculous on its own without the clarification, that's all. At that time in 1988, there was still a lot of British power on the U.S. charts, albeit a last gasp of sorts, while many U.S. hip hop groups were still quite underground. Slick Rick made it because he just worked it well, basically, is my point.

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

But isn't that what critical darlings are? Someone who SHOULD receive commercial success? The two are often mutually exclusive, I know, but at the same time, such hyped artists are almost poised for commercial success, given that the audiences can swallow it.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

mark p, why don't you try actually critiquing my thoughts? is "Anthony's just pretending - that asskisser" the new "whatever, Anthony likes Limp Bizkit"?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Can I interject here and pose a question? Is it impossible to be respectful/respected in here? I've been posing here for a few weeks now, and am often cringing at the cruel responses and the lack of respect thrown around in here. Come on...we're all smart, we're all passionate. And many of us are surrounded by idiots all day, so can't this be a sanctuary of sorts? Man, people, learn some respect!

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

the "respect" topic deserves its own thread.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

anthony for the record i don't really care that you like limp bizkit. nor do i think you're pretending. if anything, i'm so positive that you genuinely can't hear what makes dizzee exciting that it seems kinda pointless to try.

and that's not really a dig. it's just kind of obvious that you're coming at this from a completely different value set.

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Playa, the day you become my mother I'll show you some respect, and probably not even then.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, and GO FUCK YOURSELF

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

you have, however, enumerated your dislike for dizzee on enough threads and in enough different ways that i'm not exactly surprised to hear people are increasingly suspicious of your motives, you know?

(errr xpost)

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

But maybe that's what he's asking: What makes Dizzee so exciting to YOU? What are you hearing that he isn't?

Maybe I'll post that "respect" thread, but I fear it will be quickly dismissed.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/searchresults.php?board=2&q=rascal&mode=threads

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)

OMG, Matos. You are such a fucking joke. You're joking, right? I can't even believe you'd react that way. Are you really that much of an egomaniac? No way. I don't believe it. I know you're kidding. Right? How could asking people to show some respect enrage you that much?

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

would someone please explain to me what sort of suspicious GAIN I could get from questioning the value of a Dizzee Rascal CD on an internet board? How exactly would such an act benefit me CAREERWISE or any other SUSPICIOUS way? I'm just trying to express myself and am hoping that eventually somebody will actually RESPOND to my honest queries! I'm challenging Dizzee supporters to step forward and explain what VALUE this stuff has for the average listener. That everyone responds with this absurd tangential bullshit is just sad.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

haha yes I am totally enraged oh my god. you are so fucking kidding. like, right? huh?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

anthony i have no beef with you at all but level with me - are you retarded? i mean christ there's been enough dizzee love on ilm in the last year that if you genuinely can't figure out what people like about him by now then another round of "fresh beats, sick flow, new sound" is gonna mean about as much to you as my grocery list.

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is hurting my head. I will slug down some aspirin and go home, as I was planning to do anyway.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, you are out of your mind. I am in shock that an arrogant prick like you even exists. Maybe if you were less of a playground bully you'd be a much happier person. Maybe you'd even have FRIENDS.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark P, Being an American who doesn't get promos and doesn't have a file-sharing service (I'm only online at work), I've only recently gotten to hear this guy. And I've posted my reaction on the threads that were up when I did get to hear it. I don't see how that's any more retarded than thinking that someone would post a negative reaction to a critical favorite on a messageboard as a career booster!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

asking people to "watch their language" and then calling them "pricks" and "fucking jokes": c/d?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

who said anything about career opportunism?!

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

And Anthony, I don't know you and haven't read any of your previous threads, but honestly, all you have to do is read the previous posts by Matos and ask yourself: Who cares? I mean, this is what simple discussions are reduced to? What a load of shit.

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

and mark, if I have to remind you, you've yet to explain why exactly the jury's still out on whether I've been thinking about dizzee. Before that I was just chiming in on a thread about an artist I think, yup, is overrated.

And I assumed the "jury's still out" comment was in regards to the previous Dizzee thread I was on, where cinniblount accused me of being some kind of machiavellian careerist. Which, while hilarious, I'd hate to see become the new device to ignore my questions and thoughts about an artist.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

And yeah, it becomes a load of shit, Playa hata, but I've got a LOT of free time here at the library, and I'm dying to actually have a decent conversation with someone who likes the dizzee album a lot. All my friends in town just think it's crap.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

*hands Ned some Vicodin*

that'll fix you up in no time!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, you're the one that came out attacking for NO reason at all, asking "why the fuck would you make that comparison?" And just to clarify, asking you to watch your language was very tongue-in-cheek. Your attacks, however, were not, and completely unwarranted.

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos you also forgot that before he went into "Where is The Love?" mode he called me an "asshole" for pointing out some older threads.

― Broheems (diamond), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

And that's exactly why I posted this in the first place, Anthony, to have a discussion. Instead, people felt like it was an open forum to unleash attacks. WTF? So can we stop? Please? And Broheems, that was after you said you were hating on me. (Which I took to be kind of a joke). And my calling you an asshole, was also a joke. Assholes. (Get it?)

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

But to be honest, Broheems, the fact that you were so dismissive was one of the things I was calling out about the lack of respect in here.

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

PH do you get out much into the actual world where people really talk and stuff? I mean really--you look down your snoot at someone who (gasp!) swears while making a point (and please note that I don't have any problem with your refuting it) and ask for "respect"--I mean, sorry, I've seen you write smart things on other threads and all, but most of the time "show some respect" is jerkspeak for "don't argue with me, peon." as for "watch your language," who do you actually think you're fooling? you've sworn three times (that I can see, this is probably going to xpost like crazy) at the one time I upbraided you for presuming to tell me how to conduct myself. do lighten up.

xpost: Marcello II: Electric Boogaloo

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean if you're that oversensitive maybe public discourse isn't the route for you, y'know?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:11 (twenty-two years ago)

(hey, Playa, just so you know starting redundant threads IS a serious sore spot here. I think people should be nicer about it but for future reference, use the search option before starting one)

haha when I want to yell "show some respect" (like I've been wanting to on this thread) usually it's because I want them to actually argue with me (on subject, I mean)!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean if you're that oversensitive maybe public discourse isn't the route for you, y'know?
-- Matos W.K. (michaelangelomato...), February 14th, 2004.

god, I wish I could have posted that on the previous Dizzee thread when trife (of all people) called me a dick.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

uh what exactly is your definition of "on subject" anthony? isn't it even a little bit disingenuous to ask what people like about dizzee when there are reams and reams of threads devoted to that very topic?

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

up thread...I'm just waiting for someone to give a positive review that doesn't sound like an anthropological study

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe I'm totally confused. And maybe I take what is sarcasm to be disrespect, and maybe my sarcasm is viewed the same way. But you telling me to "Go Fuck Myself" isn't really sarcasm. And I was commenting on what I've noticed to be totally unnecessary attacks (the ones Marcello unleashed included). I guess I don't get it. And again, I don't care about your language, it was just a tongue-in-cheek comment.

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

and, once again, to clarify: you've said smart things, nobody is bashing you, but please fucking realize that when I fucking swear it's a fucking tic and that you should fucking stop being so fucking sensitive to it. o-fucking-k?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost there

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

and you know, forgive me, Mark, for bringing it up on the thread that, whether or not it SHOULD have been started, HAD been and was near the top of the ILM page.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

"isn't really sarcasm"? what if it is? then what?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd agree with the title question, I guess, but I certainly don't have anything against Dizzee. I like him more all the time, actually.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

he did seem like a nice guy on MTV. I kinda wonder why he gets stabbed and stuff.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't mean to argue this into the ground and I'll stop right after this post, but I was annoyed with what I took to be your haughty attitude (plus I remember the singles taking off way earlier than "months after the album's release," believe me I was working retail at the time and we couldn't keep the album in stock) (though the US/UK release-date disparity may have something to do with it) and well whatever. it's over now.

Dizzee, then. to what degree can a U.S. record review read like anything other than a field report, though? isn't part of what he's selling is Britishness--not just the accent but the geography and whatnot? this is a question, not a statement.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think I was the one being overly sensitive! I'm not that much of a pansy. Reacting to someone telling me to go fuck myself doesn't mean I'm not big enough to endure public postings. Besides, like I said, I've only been reading this for a few weeks now. Either because it's so insular or because people have been here longer, there's a culture here that is somewhat disrespectful, especially to new posters. It's kind of like that first time you smoked pot and didn't know what "cashed" meant. You were ostracized. But really you were just some dude trying to talk to people about something you love.

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Playa Hata, the reason redundancy of threads feels like a "sort spot" isn't about like, use of server space or something, but about sort of basic netiquette. I mean, it's one thing if you are presenting something new to the discourse, but "overrated" and "marble-mouthed" are pretty much non-starters; and in any case have both likely been covered extensively on the 100+ threads and counting where Dizzee's name has been invoked.

If you barge into a board and make it patently obvious that you haven't taken the time to at least briefly acquaint yourself with the previous, extensive discourse surrounding a particular topic (and indeed flaunt your unwillingness to do so [i.e "I don't have time for that shit]), why on earth would you expect people to take the time to craft measured, reasoned responses? Especially when those people have done so countless times already?

And yes, the "hating on you" bit was meant to be a light-hearted riff on your name.

― Broheems (diamond), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread is a big gaping yawn into the void.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i was waiting for that.

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

it's like ilx dumbsizing in miniature.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Dizzee, then. to what degree can a U.S. record review read like anything other than a field report, though?

actually, some of Jess's stuff I've read is able to transcend that. Though (unsurprisingly) he isn't offering shit here.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, so we were both being overly sensitive. How cute. (OK, but I swear that took off months later. I remember being surprised that it took so long. But we'll have to agree that Roni Size was perhaps a better example).

I'm going to go fuck myself to hell and back like a motherfucker. Sounds like a fucking great time to me!

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, I 'm not gonna get into the fite here. I will say though that I like the Dizzee Rascal album and it might make my top ten in 2004. My favorite songs on it are the Billy Squier one and the Positive K one. I don't understand what's supposed to be so unique about Dizzee's words, though. Which is to say I don't hear them as being especially unique myself. Inasmuch as I can make them out, they're functional, which is fine. So is his voice. (I've always felt that about Jay-Z's voice and words too, btw.) And as consistent as the album is (no tracks I dislike!) , I don't especially understand why or how it makes Dizzee so much better than most of the other good acts (there were several) on the three Garage Rap compilations that Simon Reynolds burned for me a year ago. It makes for a better album than those for the simple reason that compilations quite often tend to lack a center to grab onto. Plus those compilations were really really long. But mainly I kind of get the idea that rock critics like their geniuses, and somebody arbitrarily deciced that the genius of this particular genre is Dizzee. Maybe I'm wrong though, I dunno.

― chuck, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:29 (twenty-two years ago)

ironically enough, I was gonna ask you sometime what you made of this stuff, Chuck. Besides the lack of active dislikability (which I'd agree with), what makes this a possible top ten album for you?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

It's been a very short year so far? I dunno, Anthony. It's just a really playable record, and all the songs are really catchy, and they sound like something new, and they rock, and they move, and they've got a weird beauty to them, and there's an asshole song about jezebels which gives the guy some semblance of a personality for me, and it sounded great while I was playing Milles Bornes with my kids over Christmas. Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. I haven't broken the damn thing down under a microscope yet, and doubt I ever will. That may or may not keep it out of my top ten; I'm not sure.

― chuck, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, I put Jay's Blueprint in my top ten a couple years ago but it still doesn't seem any more meaningful than Huey Lewis's Sports (also great!) to me, you know? I just played the damn thing a lot.

― chuck, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you
no, that's plenty! as I put up earlier, I just wanted to hear more reactions that didn't rely so much on geographic context.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Hard As Hell!!!that was the name of the brit-rap comp i had in the 80's. damn that was bothering me. i wish i still had it.

as for me, i'm really digging that first streets album now. yours truly, slowpoke

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, I've noticed some friends of mine are way more vocally pro-Streets now that they've heard Dizzee. Saying stuff like "fuck it, at least that guy had some good jokes." I think Boy In Da Corner's more listenable as a whole but I'll take individual Streets tracks over individual Dizzee ones.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

The Streets has better words than Dizzee, but Dizzee has better music.

― chuck, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm gonna buy the dizzee when i have the money. and ceelogreenfunkmachine too.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i'll be the first to admit it, it took me a while to warm up to the streets album. but now i have.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

like any of you care. but still...

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess the fight's over. wanna play milles bournes?

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck otm.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

that'll fix you up in no time!

Mmm, drugs.

it sounded great while I was playing Milles Bornes with my kids over Christmas

One of the finest games EVER. Salut.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, I do, Scott! I wanted to vomit the first time I heard the streets but now I kind of like some of the hits. I still get cranky about the amount of critlove the UK guys get in relation to US folks, though.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, I do, Scott!
that's in regards to the Streets. though Milles Bornes is that race car card game right? Ace.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I was addicted to a mac computer solitaire version of that for two years.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Milles Bornes is that race car card game right?

Sure as hell is.

"INCREVEABLE!"

Or something like that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos and I are gonna play it together. Like two men in love. Forever.

― Playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

My Mille Bornes Game With Matos

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i liked i luv u and someone burned me a cd-r of boy in da corner and i didn't think it was that bad, none of it was very surprising and some of it was kind of nice. he seems like a cool character and he's kind of cute and funny but i'm almost completely uninterested.

all of the criticisms of him on this thread seem very weak.

okay.

― cloverlandthug, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

all of the criticisms of him on this thread seem very weak.
it's easier to write about why you hate something than why you don't see what the big deal is.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Does he warrant this many threads?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 14 February 2004 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

it's easier still not to say anything at all. (especially once you've made yr cosmic shrug known to the world.)

haha xpost

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 01:12 (twenty-two years ago)

it's easier still not to say anything at all. (especially once you've made yr cosmic shrug known to the world.)

prove it!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 01:13 (twenty-two years ago)

...

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 01:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I bought Boy In Da Corner yesterday, along with AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted and Illmatic. I think it'll wind up being just like those two: a debut the creator never tops, or even comes close to, again.

That being said, it's okay. It makes me want to go back and listen to Tricky's Juxtapose again, actually. (Pre-Millennium Tension is my personal highwater mark for UK hip-hop-derived music, and nobody's ever come close to it since its release, Tricky included.)

I saw Hard As Hell mentioned upthread. I used to have that, too, on cassette.

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 14 February 2004 01:21 (twenty-two years ago)

There's something about a dizzee thread that makes people crawl out of the woodwork everywhere ...

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 14 February 2004 02:00 (twenty-two years ago)

and what is with that mouth full of marbles thing? 50 cent is huge in the states. marbles are in!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 14 February 2004 02:08 (twenty-two years ago)

And The Grammy for 2004 "most ridicously argued about artist" goes to.....

― cs appleby (cs appleby), Saturday, 14 February 2004 06:12 (twenty-two years ago)

ARMS HOUSE!!

― Sean G, Saturday, 14 February 2004 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

FUCK OFF ILM, FOREVER PLEASE.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"overrated"

Is it really so fucking hard for people to simply operate on their own standards of what's good or not. Or at least to try.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Finally let me just say that I am fully confident the sheer volume of "Dizzee is overrated" threads around here means (a)he's a fucking genius and (b)the album is incredibly new and innovative.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

"innovative"

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Guy who writes on music for non-music press in liking Dizzee Rascal shocker.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

He's the black Gomez.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

(that was always my favourite Everlast single)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"works consistently at jokes but lacks real incision, diminishing returns over perpetual dizzee rascal threads"

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously, though, if Dizzee Rascal was actually having any *real* success (and remember that the new single by the fucking Alarm is probably going to chart higher than anything he's ever done this week), there'd be, what, two threads on ILM about him?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Why does chart success matter?

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean most people here would be the first to say it doesn't.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Dizzee Rascal's critical acclaim can be linked to a certain confusion, nay panic, amongst those music writers who saw the charts "pop" renaissance as occuring between 1999 and 2001. DR's music shares some of the values of this explosion. The fact that the charts are currently undergoing a major sea-change is leaving these writers unsure of their identity (the mainstream is the new alternative, and vice versa: Snow Patrol are now bigger than P!nk). Latching on to DR is basically an extremist form of retroism, "it were all fields and syncopated snares when I were a lad".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

The point is Ronan, and its the one failure in a lot of things you write, music does actually progress, what values you could assign to music from 1998 cannot be assigned to music from now. "Music doesn't exist in a vacuum" may be the laziest rule of music, but its also right.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus- "BLACKMARKET BOY" IS A MUCH BETTER ALBUM.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

("OVER OUR WAY, IT WERE ALL SPEED GARAGE BEATS AND HOOVERS")

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

the similarities between dizzee and pop 99-01?!

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Not the similarities between them musically, but between them in... what's the word I'm looking for. Philosophically?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

dizzee's 'philosophy' is simpatico with lots and lots of prior movements. but not to acknowledge the ways in which its different (and there are loads) is, again, completely disingenuous.

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody is expecting two artists from entirely different genres to share an entirely similar worldview, but to claim that valid comparisons can't be make is a fallacy, surely?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Dom you haven't got a fucking clue about "syncopated snares" or anything else, don't even pretend!

You have absolutely no concept of the merits of Dizzee Rascal within the context of electronic music or outside of that, the idea that you've more knowledge of that than the people praising Dizzee Rascal is so utterly absurd. You're fully aware of this aswell.

Hate all you want but the idea that you acting as if Dizzee Rascal is something you've seen before, or as if you have the knowledge, language or experience to discuss him in context of the lineage of electronic music is laughable. You haven't got a clue!

The idea that Dizzee's album could have been made in 1998 further shows how thick you're being, tell me what artist's "syncopated snares" were you talking about? Well?

1998 was hardly a very Dizzee year either was it? Back when French house exploded everyone was listening to dark grimey garage, um yeah of course they were! Wasn't oldstyle housey UK garage getting going back then aswell anyway?

So out of your depth here. Of course music doesn't exist in a vacuum, for me to believe that I'd have to agree with your flagrantly ridiculous "1998" theory.

Tell me have you even listened to Boy In Da Corner?

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

not to mention the fact that the majority of people on ilm who love dizzee have also embraced the mainstream with open arms.

there's a world of parallels to be made between d.r. and past movements and you've just about chosen the most fruitless and baseless one. i don't even know why i'm arguing this.

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm DYING to here you back up that "syncopated snares" comment without revealing you happened to read a dnb review once in the Sunday Times.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(And, yes, I know, especially with recent ILM events, how tedious reviewing the reviewers is, but... well, the only two critical bandwagons I've been a part of this past year are "Welcome Interstate Managers" and "Ignition (Remix)". I wanna know what I'm missing out on. The answer appears to be very little)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, sorry, the hive mindset is right, sorry for arguing against it. Got any Kool Aid?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

so dom i'll bite. what are these parallels exactly?

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

you can't make lazy ill informed statements and then get arsey when people call you on them.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

actually a better question would be: dom, what music progressed for you in 2003?

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i just dont understand why people feel the need to make their non-opinions so voiciferously known on a music they care nothing about just because a slightly bankable figure from said music breaks through.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry but ronan's totally on the money here. i'm having a hard time taking hip-hop crib notes from someone who probably regards dj format as 'the way out'.

(x-post)

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Is "Tails" By Lisa Loeb and the Nine Stories The Most Influential Album of the 90s?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

whether it's dom "our beloved uk hip-hop is under siege" passatino or anthony "thinking too much gives you wrinkles" miccio...did either of you give a fuck all for garage at any time 97-02...really?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

totally jess, hence my annoyance at the word "overrated".

It's like lets walk into a critical consensus in an area of music we care nothing about and act as if it's meant to be serving us.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not barging onto threads fritz starts about garage rock saying "what's the fucking big deal??" because i heard elephant and thought it was mediocre.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

haha yeah x-post: assuming music is going to contort itself to fit our existing listening habits is rockism par excellence.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean fuck dom if this were a format or fallacy or dm/gemini thread you'd be bitching about the prevalence of commercial american hip-hop but here you're gonna use the fact that dizzee's not prevalent enough as your weapon of choice?

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

this rock music is confusing and irritating me being played in this bar...where's the 4/4???

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

the white stripes are so overrated, he didn't say "fuck" or "motherfucker" more than about 3 times on that whole album, and there was hardly any analog synth or electroclash girls.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

dizzee rascal (ft. tori amos) - me and a gun (live o mix)

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

the charge of retroism is fucking absurd too...go up to 85% of the people into garage around 98 and you'll hear ther same old bullshit about dizzee..."not really music", blah blah. OF COURSE he's going to be popular with rock critics, because rock critics have had fuck all to do with "the scene"...they just like bleepy noises they can play at home and are obsessed with novelty to the point of dementia (i'm not even excluding myself from this.) it's the same reason he won the mercury. (and the same reason roni size won in 97, and no jungle dnb/record has since.) but, again, dizzee is gonna be a one-off for them...half the people who voted for him on p&j have probably never heard doogz or jammer or whoever. things will keep on keeping on, and in another two or three years when whatever gr!me turns into throws up another "auteur theory" genius, everyone who wasnt paying attention for the previous three years will feel the need to have their say too.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

saying dizzee is overrated is a bit like saying sean paul is overrated: there's a whole fucking world of this stuff out there! if you're sick of sean paul and yr conflating him with his entire genre, a. you're lazy and/or b. maybe you just don't like the genre.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:16 (twenty-two years ago)

my post two above is for anyone who ever accuses me of "popism" ever again.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Craig David's Billboard stats. Born to Do It hit #11 on The Billboard 200, and "Fill Me In" went #15 and "7 Days" went #10 on The Billboard Hot 100. That's two pretty decent-sized hits. Slicker Than Your Average went #32, kinda respectable for a lame follow-up.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I like 'Elephant' alot but Ronan OTM

― dave q, Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

love how Dizzee/hip-hop always brings out the best in posters...

strong otm. Dizzee probably is over-rated but then isn't everything these days - circumstances have dictated this, it seems the stakes are higher/more at risk and people (industry and press) are more desperate for those precious revolutionary idols in music to show the way forward. not gonna happen, suckers. admit i am quite jaded/cynical in that respect but the idea that Dizzee or whoever (The Thrills: Over-rated? Jet: Over-rated? The Vines: Over-rated? Distillers: Over-rated? and so and so on for about three weeks) is merely a mediocre talent is not something to be that concerned about if you just forget this idea that music and movements need to follow the same paths as they did in the past.

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

thing i find weirdest about the claims of dizzee's overratedness is that this is probably the first time the "pirate continuum" has tossed up an auteur who represents the entire scene in the eyes of the media where the album qua album is actually among his best work. (what else? timeless? sincere???)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

He is vile.

― the bellefox, Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

well, you know those darkies.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Ahem.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Overrated?

Not by me.

― Stupid (Stupid), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

jess i think that's a bit different in that Goldie and MJ Cole actually had several years of work behind them before releasing big albums into the mainstream - not the case with Dizzee and i think the media/press get off on his youth and freshness in that respect - it also makes him more accessible in that you can be up on Dizzee a lot quicker than aforementioned auteurs due to the lower amount of past material. sorry if i misunderstood what you meant there.

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm certainly not going to get involved in this, i like him and i don't really care if the press have hyped him too much or not enough, but i will say that i'm impressed jess and ronan even bothered given the facile, antagonistic, eccentric to the point of complete incomprehnsibility, nature of the arguments put foward by dizzee's detractors, particularly those of the terminally 'confused' dom p.

― '''''''''', Saturday, 14 February 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I've stayed out of every single Dizzee thread as of yet aside from commenting on his name. Which I think sounds like the name of a plastic toy you'd get in a Happy Meal. Dizzee Rascal.

Dizzee is just slightly boring over a whole album. The beats sound shitty and half-baked which is charming for 5 or 6 tracks. Maybe I'm just used to the pristine sound quality of Dr. Dre's beats or something. Although I do like Lord Sear's beats for example, so go figure. As far as the syncopated (ha ha) beats, what's different about Dizzee's use of this tool than how Timbaland uses syncopation, or a zillion other hip hop producers? To me the minimalist thing in the beats sounds not purposeful but limited by skill. At first I thought they were really cool, but after listening over and over again, they've worn thin and I've come to the above conclusion. Towards the end of the album nothing sounds even slightly new. His flow is unique and aggressive, never predictable, I like how he rides the beat ahead for a few bars, then behind, very natuaral. His rhymes are clever, his lyrics are so-so, at times moving. Personally, I don't hear the marbles in his mouth thing. I think there are far bigger "marbles" culprits. I also don't understand the American tendency of not being able to make out his words. There are a couple of tough spots I guess, but the guy is fucking speaking English and it's really not that hard to understand. "Fix Up Look Sharp" is a brilliant single and should be huge in the states, since it's spiritually akin to No Limit/Southern bounce.

I hope I don't get crucified for my lack of knowlege of the UK dance continuum from 1982 to present. And if I read one more mention of the Mercury Prize with the word "prestigious" in front of it... I mean if it's so prestigious don't you think I'd already know about it?

― scott m (mcd), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

This was in response to Anthony's comment about writing about something you hate vs. writing about something you don't see as a big deal.

― scott m (mcd), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

but the guy is fucking speaking English and it's really not that hard to understand.

Well, being that he's English what would people expect him to be speaking - French? And if any Americans have trouble understanding him then maybe you should just try a little harder.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Exactly my point.

― scott m (mcd), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I know!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Major x-post re: "Big Beat" samples:

http://www.the-breaks.com/perl/search.pl?term=Big+Beat&type=4

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Another X-post:

Since when is AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted a "debut the creator never tops, or even comes close to, again"???

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

little known fact is that the beat from "live o" was sampled from cinderella

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"It's gonna be a long cold winter..."

― Andy K (Andy K), Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe he mostly connects with white audiences in the States. I played him at a party last night, and none of my friends found his abilities at all groundbreaking. It will be interesting to see the reacation over here.

― playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I really liked Scott m's review up thread.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, but I gotta say...I think he's tougher to understand than Twista is.

― playa Hata, Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Well I'll admit everytime "Slow Jamz" comes up on the radio I'd definitely prefer "Fix Up, Look Sharp" - at least for the "Woo!"

And sorry, Jess doesn't barge onto threads with negative statements? I suppose that merits a "haha."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

just once, I'd like to get called a dick by someone who isn't, you know, a dick.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm confused by: Dizzee's beats = shitty and half-baked = Timbaland? I think the whole album kind of has this tweaked, over the edge vibe, and the beats fit well with it.

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

It is quite fun to watch people who love rubbish music viciously attacking each other.

But only, come to think of it, quite fun.

― the blissfox, Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

did either of you give a fuck all for garage at any time 97-02...really?

No, I didn't. That'd have to do with it being the most least deservingly critically-dick sucked genre of all time, though. And I heard this shit non-stop between 98 and 01, so don't try and tell me that I haven't *engaged* with it.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

But, anyway, yeah, this is where you list bands that I like and you don't in an attempt to win an arguement.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

You may like to know that I bought three Stevie Wonder albums from the 80s today.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

part-time garage lover!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

anthony if you've got priapism from your hardon for "engaging with ideas" then why can't you do the same with whats. been written. in this thread.

jess and ronan did a nice job about fifty posts back. i'm sorry if we're not all cowtowing to your dissent but christ isn't it remotely possible that you're not a very critical/reliable listener when it comes to hip-hop and ukg?

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Dizzee and grime in general doesn't sound or feel an ounce like Timbaland. to me there's this sense of "stopping short" in garage and garage-derived beats, in contrast with nuevo hip-hop producers who still usually reach a comfortable resolution in the downward-moving snare. that's just how they move. there are too many ideas being thrown around by people without (it seems) any substantial visceral response.

and production values don't matter, well they shouldn't.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

50 million broadsheet critics can't be wrong!

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously, when Ronan actually just admits that he is Alexis Petridis (the wonderment of the world of dance! The Strokes are the world's greatest guitar band! Dizzee Rascal, he's one hep cat!), then we can all go home and be happy.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

well, mark, since most the stuff requires a working knowledge of the UK underground dance/garage/hip-hop movement I can't really respond to it. However, since this album is being marketed to EVERYBODY, I think my take on it is valid.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess random "iconoclasts" who don't get it can't be wrong either!

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha, over on the kittyradio forums a Dizzee Rascal thread was started with the words "It's the new big indie thing".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

What are we *not getting* Ryan? Is every other band that you like and I don't a result of my mental disorders as well?

That's *exactly* why there's been so many threads on BIDC being overrated, because it's being forced on us as a critical consensus. Which is, basically, bullshit. Yes, I have heard the album. He has good flow, bad wordplay, and appalling beats. The album is probably the most rushed I've ever heard. Whoever is pulling the strings behind him and told him to rush-record it in order to get it out in time for the Mercury has basically sacrificed his career.

So, yeah, Gomez...

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess random "iconoclasts" who don't get it can't be wrong either!

what the hey? We can be wrong, I just don't like it when we iconoclasts aren't supposed to speak because we aren't well-versed in the genre from whence it came. I don't know crap about dancehall but I think I'm qualified to talk about Sean Paul as "pop." Likewise Dizzee. That's the whole point of "crossover" isn't it?

And dude, I like Gomez.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

my problem with you, anthony, on the dizzee threads and the b jaxx threads (and a lot of other threads besides), is that you have a tendency to come in and (when it's something you don't particularly care for) start attacking the music on the basis of the formal constraints that the genre has set up for itself (the very things that make the music the particular music it is). which seems to me to be completely pointless, akin to trying to will something that currently has ILM's attention to fit your own particular listening preferences. i mean...maybe you just don't like electronic dance music. maybe you just don't like grime or ukg. and, hey, that's okay dude. just because something currently has ILM's, or hipsters, or the media's, or the public's attention...you don't have to have an opinion on it...good, bad, or indifferent. i don't give a shit about the shins. or uh well see exactly i cant even really name anything else because there's just not enough time. even out and out hate would be preferrable, because the "indifference" is key. if you really hated dizzee, or basement jaxx, or electronic dance, or ukg, then maybe we might be getting some sort of dissent out of you that actually revealed something new about the music, lost in the critical gushing. instead we just get 400 variations on "meh" or contrarianism for contrarianisms sakes, and really, what's the fucking point?

dom, on the other hand, is just a tool, whose (yes) bad taste (maybe the worst, most wrongheaded on ilm) means i can never take anything he says seriously.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't think anyone's doubting yours or dom's dislike of the record, miccio. but what's the purpose of flying in all batshit and smug like dizzee's some sort of snake oil?!

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, I don't think I hate British dance music. I'm not very well-verse in the stuff, but I liked ALL the previous Basement Jaxx singles, owned Remedy, which I dug about half of. And you'll note I don't go on EVERY thread about this stuff. Just the ones that discuss it in a crossover context.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

and if you look at my first post on this thread, I'm clearly being somewhat diplomatic about the guy. and again, I really don't see how I'm any more "smug" than the folks who accuse of being it.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"forced on us as a critical consensus"

"dom, on the other hand, is just a tool, whose (yes) bad taste (maybe the worst, most wrongheaded on ilm) means i can never take anything he says seriously."

circle jerk
(n)
A masturbation party; can be with guys or girls. Everyone usually sits in a circle and jacks off in the company of other people.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

see it's that clever humor that's made ilm what is today.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

No, that'd be you.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Or perhaps it was wacky threads about bees.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

look, can't we just admit we're all assholes and get over it already? let the innocent cast the first stone and all that.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

which is why i think it boils down to whether you're viscerally responding to the music. of course everyone has their personal preferences, that's covered in baby's first muso discourse, but when you talk about hating the entirety of garage music you've gotta admit your critiques about Dizzee being "appalling" and "bullshit" aren't really coming from the same place as supporters who don't think the whole rhythmic foundation is crap.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

but hey we can all agree stereophonics 'movie star' is the worst single ever made, right?

― omg, Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(sorry that was referring to:)

What are we *not getting* Ryan? Is every other band that you like and I don't a result of my mental disorders as well?
That's *exactly* why there's been so many threads on BIDC being overrated, because it's being forced on us as a critical consensus. Which is, basically, bullshit. Yes, I have heard the album. He has good flow, bad wordplay, and appalling beats. The album is probably the most rushed I've ever heard. Whoever is pulling the strings behind him and told him to rush-record it in order to get it out in time for the Mercury has basically sacrificed his career.

So, yeah, Gomez...

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't heard it, omg, but you had me with "stereophonics."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

You've not heard "Mr Writer" then?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i think they've trumped themselves.

― omg, Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Ryan- I will admit my experiences with actual 2-step late 90s speed garage pop, or whatever the correct title for it was, weren't the most positive of my musical listening life. I could speak for about three hours on my "Flowers" is one of the worst singles ever recorded, for starters.

But, as stated above, "Boy In Da Corner" isn't a ghettoised garage album. It's being bought, and praised by, critics who have probably never touched another garage/grime/whatever album in their lives. Are they responding to it wrongly as well?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

argh, "flowers" is wicked!

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"Movie Star" does prove that Stuart Cable was the most talented member of the abnd, which is the most depressing thing ever.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

man, everybody's trying to make me feel bad about my disinterest in British hoo-ha and then somebody brings up Stereophonics.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(Mark- that's what everyone else I say that to tells me. I once had to listen to a CD single version of it, though (with two remixes!) on repeat play for four hours. Not an experience I wish to repeat)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

233 posts without someone bringing up race or posting wacky pictures? Record?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

massive x-post:

'The Big Beat' is hardly an appalling beat, heh. but then i've never liked Dom's reading of Skinner and Wiley's beats as 'weak' - sure they're lo-tech - part deliberate i think, that's the idea. aside from applying an Audio Bullys-like phatness and sheen to them i don't see how that could or needs to be improved upon or how it's a disadvantage. it's the 'coat-hanger down the spine' aspect of the beats on BIDC that's one of it's main attractions for me anyway - something a little different. i think criticism of the amateurish production is sort of valid considering their youth (used the same excuse for Skinner before but) and lack of experience...if nothing else it's acceptable to deride them for this in the same way it's okay to call Gang Of Four a bunch of scant-talent punX0rs with shoddy knowhow but good attitude.

Whoever is pulling the strings behind him and told him to rush-record it in order to get it out in time for the Mercury

i don't think that's the case at all. do the bods at XL really care about such worthless accolades? it would be a shame if so, i don't think they ever used to, back when their sole cashcow was Liam Howlett.

some people think he has good flow tho (Dom), others find it appalling (cybele) - i'm not even arsed about that. god knows what the pinefox is doing here! tho i am sort of half-interested in his hatred for this music and why - unless it's the same as Geir's.

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you not think the album seems rushed, Steve? The few negative reviews I've seen of the album all seemed to back up my initial opinion that he'd put it out quicker than it should have been. Maybe for the Mercury, maybe to ride some of that buzz wave, I dunno.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

it's hard to assess what constitutes 'rushed' for Dizzee tracks considering how minimal they are - but again part of the appeal is the way they can be constructed so quickly as a result of this approach - i don't hear his stuff and immediately see how it could've been better if only they'd done this or this or this like maybe you do (you listen to a lot more UK hip hop than i do fair play)

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I just find it very hard to believe that someone, anyone would rush-record an album to the win the Mercury Prize. To impress critics or ride a wave of hype, sure, I can sort of see that...but the Mercury Prize? It just seems so unlikely...

"Hey! Wait a minute! Let's record something in the most rushed manner possible so we can win some big dumb award given by people who generally don't know shit about our music. Oh, sure, sure, the shoddiness just might alienate the original audience and some of the critics who initially supported us might bitch, but I mean, c'mon -- I'm talking about the Mercury Prize here!"

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess what I should be asking is: do people really care that much about the award? Concrete examples are preferable.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I still think it's wrong to consider DR in relationship to British hip-hop, but, having said that, perhaps that it what *I'm* doing.

(ie: "Boy In Da Corner"- garage artist listens to some hip-hop; "Blackmarket Boy"- hip-hop artist listens to some garage)

Irrespective to the approach I come to it from, though, I still don't find it... it's not even mediocre. It's actually a shitty album.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I think, Daddino, that the Mercury can definitely be a career maker. PJ Harvey took her first top ten single off the back of the Mercury, it turned Gomez from a C-list indie act to an A-list one for a few years, Ms Dynamite's whole career is basically indebted to it...

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Dizzee is not hip hop, some of his tracks are

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Also: Badly Drawn Boy.

(admittedly, it did fuck all for Talvin Singh, and it probably hindered Roni Size's career in the long run (although "Who Told You?" still remains his biggest hit))

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.mercurymusicprize.com/images/2003_winner.jpg

"Yeah. Great to be here. Thanks. Whatever."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Was that before or after he sent a shout-out to all his soldiers in the blogosphere?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Neither. Simon Reynolds made that up. (Maybe you know that, sorry.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

see, 50 Cent even has better FASHION SENSE! yeargh!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

that JACKET is why he's not hip-hop

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I think he is hip hop, for better or worse, grime is the british hip hop that UK hip hop never managed.

Whether or not the record was rushed, it should have been rushed. Though a counter argument could be made that dance music should be rushed, and hip hop not, and the fact that dizzee still is sort of both complicates that argument.

Jess and Ronan say very good things on this thread, it was kind of sewn up there and then

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

yeh delete all other posts apart from jess and ronan's or something. i'm sick of those guys getting all the props, sniffle...

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

'Voodo Ray' is the most rushed track ever

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I did know that Mike.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm Alexis Petridis?

You remind me of an Alex too Dom, with one of his particularly negative traits magnified to ten thousand. Do you ever find listening to bling hiphop a bit too familiar?

Of course you'd know I'm into more dance music than Dizzee Rascal if you'd actually heard any.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Do I ever find listening to bling hip-hop a bit too familiar? Yeah, most No Limit posse cuts sound far too much like my life.

(what the fuck? that's like the worst insult anyone's ever come up with, unless you've screwed and chopped the grammar up on it)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I did know that Mike.

I figured but just wanted to make sure...I'm not always the quickest at spotting irony online.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

You could say that grime is a British answer to hip-hop, rather than British hip-hop.

(Blade's got a new album out! Everyone hide.)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

As for Anthony, I've never seen someone so consistently delighted with their own ignorance, fucking revelling in it. You fit an awful caricature of an American I didn't think really existed.

(xpost, not really an insult, if you don't get it you don't get it)

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I love how people keep saying things to me here but then say they're indifferent as to whether or not I get it. If that's the case, then just shut the fuck up.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I often imagine that people moon the screen after they submit posts to threads like this. It makes me chuckle.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

You could say that grime is a British answer to hip-hop, rather than British hip-hop.

yes, i think thats a better way of putting it, an answer too, rather than a copy of. perhaps this is why it works better

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I was talking to Dom.

*moons screen with FUCK YOU ILM, FUCK YOU FOREVER written on ass*

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

haha a visible ass doesn't scream "fuck you" per se.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

You could say that grime is a British answer to hip-hop, rather than British hip-hop.

no because WHAT is grime at the end of the day? Marcello alluded to this before, correctly i think. not to downplay it but it's nothing that jungle or early UK hip hop wasn't (mostly in the eye of the beholder anyway) albeit with some differences affecting production and coverage (technology). aside from some of the tricks and ideas crossing into pop what's it going to achieve other than follow the trajectory previous urban scenes have in providing a pastime for alienated creative young people (this being perfectly acceptable as a remit in itself)? it's not a response to anything from the States, it's just an intuitive response that owes nothing to anything other than itself (hmm)...

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm glad Ronan don't got webcam

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I will admit ignorance on the actual *genre* of it (rather than what music I've heard from it), so I'll bow to your knowledge there.

Now, back to the anal sex jokes.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

My work here is done.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

awright since clearly the subject of Dizzee is thoroughly dead, the next time anybody on EITHER side brings it up people should just respond by typing variations on Boy In Da Cornhole. A truce I can respect.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan Perry is a saint among men.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Lube Up Look Sharp

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"Boy In Da Cornhole"

Dom's finest?/ most shameful? hour.

― omg, Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

don't know exactly what Dizzee wants to do (does he? i keep remembeing his numerous remarks and references that border on nihilism if not swagger past it nonchalantly) other than G.H.E.T.T.O.U.T. so to speak, but i quite like the fact he's not taking a side regarding hip hop or garage or even this inbetween which obviously exists but doesn't strike me as an epoch-defining movement or anything. altho i like to venture suggestions like this, i concede that i'm not the best person to talk about it either as i hear about as much grime as i do, er, British hip hop these days (couple of tracks here and there that's it). this thread is somewhere between hilarious fun and soul-destroying agony (partly for the bickering but more cos it's the 20th Dizzee thread to garner all this waffle)

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

roun roun roun brown hole
roun roun roun brown hole
roun roun roun brown hole
if you'll fuck it let me know

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

exact same thing happened with mike skinner.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

hilarious x-post?

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 14 February 2004 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do you think, then, that the British hip-hop media (as in hip-hop media in Britain, not media relating to British hip-hop) doesn't exactly welcome The Streets and DR with open arms?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

(and, yes, talking about music journalism is hella dull)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

cos liking british hiphop is a weirdo minority position which is obviously totally removed from anything remotely street or dance.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Because the brit hiphop media is wary of its own genre being shunted out by garages bastard child.

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Definitely I hustle blad, definitely I grind
You can try anything you wont I definitely don't mind
Definitely got my ting, I definitely know your face
So don't jump out your promo, definitely put you in your place
Definitely I hustle blad, definitely I graft
So you can chat anything you wont, cuz ill definitely will jus laugh
Definitely got my swords, definitely got them sharp
So don't keep talking like you bright,k cuz it definitely will get dark
Listen, definitely I hustle blad, definitely I fly, so you can chat anything you want,
ill definitely jus sigh
Definitely know im real, definitely no you aint
So don't try being no devil, cuz I definitely aint no saint
Definitely I hustle blad, definitely win
So you keep taking this for a joke, and I definitely will just grin
Definitely could of herd, definitely couldn't know
Don't talk like your on top, ill definitely leave you below

― tipustiger, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

what?

― The Ugly American (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

actually those are pretty good lyrics, though I don't know what "blad" means and I can't remember what track that's from.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

my blad

― omg, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

don't be so teste

― omg, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"Jus a Rascal"

I just wanted this thread to settle its disagreements with some epic throwdowns.

― tipustiger, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

haha cool

TS: Dizzee Rascal vs. Jimmy Kimmel FITE!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

cos liking british hiphop is a weirdo minority position which is obviously totally removed from anything remotely street or dance.

Wah? I know very little about the subject, but do you truly stand by these statements, Ronan, or were they overblown for dramatic effect? Like, I can believe this about DJ Format, but I can't really about Roots Manuva or Fallacy (especially not the first part...)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(first part = removed from anything street, not weirdo minority position, which I find easier to believe)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Saturday, 14 February 2004 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

grrr I R threadkilla, I really wanted Ronan to answer this!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 15 February 2004 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

relative to what's being discussed on this thread yes it is removed from anything street.

Rave is british hiphop. "british hiphop" is like a two pin plug converter.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 15 February 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Rascal brings nothing new to the malt liquor warped table that is mainstream, american hip-hop. However, this fact can only aid his conquest for fifteen minute attention and success. More accent than he is wit, more hype than he is hope, Rascal will be old news on the street by 2005.

― Kevin M. Falahee, Monday, 16 February 2004 04:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow that sounds like it's from a press release. Are record companies indulging in pre-emptive hype-destruction these days?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 16 February 2004 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Falahee's post is from the one-sheet for the new REM album.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 16 February 2004 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"Slobodan Wzxericz's Romanian nose-flute music brings nothing new to the beer-stained warped table that is mainstream, american country."

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Monday, 16 February 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

What street are you talking about exactly, Kevin?

― scg, Monday, 16 February 2004 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

any more lofty proclamations for us?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 16 February 2004 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't really want to get to involved in these threads. I just find it hard to believe that people can't get just a little bit excited when hearing Dizzee Rascal chat. There's a reason his album came out first. Maybe I can understand it from those kind of Stans who own every single DJ Whoo Kid mix tape and think that 'flow' begins and ends at Young Buck, but but but. Dizzee Rascal would kill most US MCs just talking over their set. And fair enough if you don't actually like the music. But most of the criticisms are still based on his voice, his nationality, that he can't compete with 'real' rap, that he won't last. Anglophobia. And and and most of these criticisms are coming from people who barely listen to rap anyway!Fuck it I don't give a shit if you don't like Dizzee Rascal or if you don't think he's nothing on Lloyd Banks or Juelz Santana. He's not supposed to be better than them (he is though). It's just that not one of the negative crits of Rascola (slight exaggeration)on this board have been as impassioned, on point and fully realised as the positive comments. And the guy who said this: 'Why should I get excited about nine millimeters ending debates when in American songs the guns actually GO OFF?'. That's just some embarassing shit.

― scg, Monday, 16 February 2004 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, well, that's our Miccio.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 16 February 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

scg. i don't think the people you're talking about really exist. dizzee got a good review in murder dog and check some american hip-hop message boards for threads about him, they're mostly positive (a few: 'i can't understand a word he's saying, he sucks').

― cloverlandthug, Monday, 16 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Dizzee Rascal joins N*E*R*D for a rendition of ‘Lapdance’.

― JoB (JoB), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Cor! Ronan I missed this the first time round...

liking british hiphop is a weirdo minority position which is obviously totally removed from anything remotely street or dance.

You know I come from a pro-UKHH position and I certainly wouldn't try to claim any element of 'street' in my life, but I don't agree with that at all.

You might hate it, you might not listen to it at all, but
1. attacking something for not being 'street' enough is lame, keep it real, eh?
2. if you insist on using 'street', on what basis is the UKHH scene, self-supporting and mostly based (and strongest) in the same areas that grime's coming from, doesn't qualify? Aside from that being 'obvious' of course?

More to the point, are you going to be in town this weekend?

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

are you going to beat 'im up Tim?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

'im =>

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Check ILE for last question!

Well does UK hiphop really appeal to the same jungle audiences as grime is? To me it's always seemed, whether by coverage or otherwise, as a genre the UK dance mags discussed and some people liked, and the stuff I've heard had a deeper connection with dub and reggae than it did with rave.

I mean in terms of the UK having an equivalent of US hiphop, rave seems to, or seemed to fit the bill far more, it's far more popular for starters. Is it inaccurate to separate the two?

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

aargh my prev post was eaten up.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

No but "street" != "jungle" or "rave" does it? [There may well be some meaning of street I'm missing I suppose.]

I mean, it exists (mostly) separately from "dance" yeah, it was the "street" piece I objected to...

I'm on ILE Strike until they respond to my list of demands but I'll look at the thread and will be in touch.

Julio, twinkle, all my beatings are reserved for you.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

When you mean "a UK equivalent of hip-hop", what exactly do you mean? A movement from "the streets", a movement from an ethnic minority, a movement concerned with politics, with dancing, that's the biggest in the world... I'm sure you do have a point worth discussing here (probably in a seperate thread actually), but it just seems muddled at the moment.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the UKHH scene, self-supporting and mostly based (and strongest) in the same areas that grime's coming from

i'd disagree with this.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't the difference between UKHH and grime (and possibly one of the reasons that grime has more of a hold on the media than UKHH does) that UKHH is, in fact, pretty much spread all over the country (sure, Twang, Manuva, and Fallacy are all from London, but then you've got Aspects in Bristol, PLC in Luton, DPF and all that lot from Norfolk, the Wolftown scene, a bunch of guys in Birmingham, all that stuff on that "Northern hip-hop" mix from a few months back)?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

While grime (and its antecedent genres) don't really exist north of the Watford Gap.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

in which case it's funny that grime has more of a hold unless you're just talking the London-biased media. Also there is absolutely no reason for grime to be confined to being just a London thing anymore than hip-hop or jungle or whatever.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no reason, but it does seem to be a more localised than most things. Also, yeah, London based media. To take an indie analogy, a band doesn't exist unless they've done the Camden toilet circuit to certain sections of the media.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't there sometimes a geographical link with genres which means they can't exist outside of a certain place?

Perhaps one of the key things about grime is its localised nature, even if that's not quite to the same extent as people here say, at least I thought I'd read on some of the grime threads about some non London based grime crews.

I mean just because it'd be fairer if big cities weren't more consistent than small ones doesn't mean this is the case, or it ever will be.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Things in general tend to come out of one place before they spread (grime might or might not).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 19 February 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

i asked on here about grime outside of london (or south east at best), didnt get any particularly satisfactory answers though (supposedly pockets in manchester, nottingham, huddersfield, i dont know). i dont think grime will spread outside london, because, as dom says, even its antecedents genres never really became demetropolized (unless you count hardcore itself, which was nationwide), but since jungle, its been capital-concentrated. ukhh doesnt seem londoncentric at all, for what its worth

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Thursday, 19 February 2004 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

In the days (a couple of years ago) when I'd follow what people were saying about UKHH, there was no end of complaints from people outside London that no-one ever paid any attention to them. Maybe that's changed, but it still feels to me as though the heart of the matter's in London.

I can see that UKHH it less london-centric than grime though, for sure (does this affect how 'street' it is, btw?)

Stelfox, were you disagreeing just on the geography issue or saying that you don't agree that UK hip hop is pretty much self-supporting?

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I love the fact that the NME piece tells us that Gem form Heavy Stereo attended the NERD/Dizzee gig.

Can all threads on this subject be titled pop vs folk, cos the gatekeeper-ness is very reminiscent of ye olde folk music. I doubt Dizzee himself has the historic grounding in electronic music that most posters here aspire to.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 19 February 2004 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

All I've read about UKHH suggests it's just full of people who hate commercial hiphop etc etc, it just seems like the American indie hiphop thing to me, Jockey Slut champion a fair bit of it and occasionally put in on their CDs and I've never been very impressed. I don't get any real sense of ethnicity from it, perhaps that sense of a localised scene where a whole load of people are working in the same general area gives something more cultural resonance.

If people aren't covering something just because it's purely based in London then that's idiotic, same way it would be if it was purely based in Manchester or Dublin. Something being purely based in an area is a special kind of cultural phenomenon.

Does UKHH have as extensive a club culture as garage? I mean really what I could also be asking is if UKHH has that street level resonance why is it so much less popular than garage or probably grime too at this point?

I think at some point you have to conclude that it's not part of a lineage in the same way as garage/grime.

(Enrique, there's historical grounding and then there's Dom's post last week which was completely ignorant, I mean I'd still love to see a justification for Dizzee being straight out of 1998, and also that lame syncopated snares comment. Cursory knowledge of dance would be enough. Not asking for anyone to be a devout expert, I know I'm not but that post was nuts, that's why it was called out)

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Sometimes a subjective approach works. For example: problem with UKHH would seem to be that it has willed its way into existence because its advocates believe it *should* exist. A few years ago attempts were made at equivalents to US hip hop language ('queen's head' = 'dead president' apparently). This may be complete bollocks, but there we are. UKG OTOH is, if not organic, at least less self-conscious about its importance, or its 'necessity'.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's a mistake to say that UK Hip Hop = US undie business. There may be sonic similarities some of the time. It's a different thing, and I think most of the best UK Hip Hop people would love to be working at a higher profile.

Ronan you're great but if you're going to call out Dom for talking about a genre from a position of little knowledge, then citing Jockey Slut as the source from which you get your info on UK hip hop doesn't really fly.

I don't know about 'extensive' but as far as I can tell, UKHH is pretty much entirely a club-based thing. And it's not part of the same lineage as garage / grime / whatever (except in a very broad sense) but it's totally part of a lineage with a history and a changing sound etc.

I'm not sure about your point about 'ethnicity': lots of my fave London hip hop sounds completely like London to me. Not sure what 'ethnicity' would sound like...

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique I might have bought that point ten years ago but I just don't think it applies now, perhaps because people have been making hip hop in this country for long enough that there is a tradition of sorts.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Indeed, the old "UK rappers all want to be American" meme has basically no basis in current British hip-hop.

Ronan, when you say "undie" do you just mean that it doesn't sell as well?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim, I'll belive you, I am basing opinions on half-remembered conversations from the late 90s.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I do think that "Run Come Save Me" was a kind of Day Minus 0 for British hip-hop. It did precede "Countryman", right?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate being the bloke who comes on here to defend UK hip hop, particularly since I think 2003 was UKHH's worst year since, I dunno, 1998 or something. But we all know how annoying it is when we read people on here having a pop at a genre from an apparent position of little knowledge, don't we?

I'd rather just hear "UKHH suxx" (or whatever) than theories about what's wrong with it from people who don't really know anything about it.

(That problem's mostly away from this board, in the press and that, I'm really not having a go at anyone.)

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Dom it's all about the singles innit? "Where My Mind Is At" was '96.

"Countryman" and "Brand New Secondhand" came out at about the same time, I think, if you must be albumist about it.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"Brand New Second Hand" was 1999, wasn't it? "Countryman" was 2001.

It wasn't the most inspiring year for UK hip-hop, admittedly. None of the big guns released anything, one or two "oooh, this has got potential" singles that never went anywhere... hmmm.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I forget the dates, it's all a bit of a blur... You're probably right.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

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