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Amy Phillips, "White Blood Sells: Race and the White Stripes' Moment in the Sun" [oh god no]

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This is going to happen at the 2004 Experience Music Project and I would really appreciate a good, rational explanation why.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 07:06 (twenty-two years ago)

(Yes, that Amy Phillips)

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 07:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Because lots of people hate formally discussing music, and will use any possible idea (no matter how stupid) to avoid doing so.

― Jedmond, Saturday, 21 February 2004 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

In a pop music climate dominated commercially by hip-hop, Jack and Meg offer a lily-white alternative, their pale, pancake-makeup-covered faces and raw, stripped-down sound contrast sharply with dark-skinned rappers and their complex digitized rhythms. The media have embraced the Stripes as symbols of anti-rap, as rock’s Great White Hope in the face of dwindling record sales and increasing artistic irrelevance. And although I do not believe that the Whites are racists—their love for African-American-derived musical forms such as the blues and garage rock is too great, for one—I also do not think that they are entirely innocent in the matter.

not only do they not rap -- THEY'RE WHITE! *gasp!* The BASTARDS! Though it's interesting that now the white guys own the primal beat. Where does Coldplay (rock's other Great White Hope) and the Cure (who were rocking the pale and pancake long before) fit into this? Are those folks "innocent"?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Where does Coldplay (rock's other Great White Hope)

So are Radiohead in their own universe then? Oh right, Xgau said they didn't have enough Africa in 'em.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, Radiohead should be even more "guilty" then.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

oh Jesus no. She actually wrote that? And they gave her a panel to elaborate?

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

wouldn't you like her to elaborate?

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

sure, I'm a big fan of dumb

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

1. Somebody plz link to the full article.
2. How are the White Stripes not innocent? Because of they music they chose to play, or because how they chose to be accepted into the mainstream or oh yeah, wait, it's bullshit.

― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I can see that.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I really hope the White Stripes put out a "King Of Rap" song where he notes that he doesn't need complex rhythms and technology ("there's two of us but we're not Run-DMC!"). Where you see Linkin Park standing behind him and then all of sudden it's just MEG! Then they'd be guilty.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Somebody plz link to the full article
I don't think you can. The abstracts are available on the EMP page.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

sometimes people just go to great lengths to use a clever pun they thought up as the title of something.

― Al (sitcom), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

too bad Ego Trip's Big Book of Racism brought it up first (and had the sense to actually leave it as a one-liner).

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

So what are the best questions one could ask her at such a panel - name your favorite three 6 mafia song? Or maybe Jack and Meg could attend their own trial!

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"So is 'Kool Thing' automatically your favorite Sonic Youth song?"

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

or maybe Michael Jackson and Johnny Winter could question her hatred of the "lily-white"?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

And Brother Ali!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

ok that was bad

what really cracks me up: the "moment in the sun" bit. They're only here for a limited time folx; remember the Knack?!?!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

If anything the White Stripes are ageist. If you aren't in preschool or named Blind Willie something they just don't give a shit.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

(that was a joke, not a paper abstract btw)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is gross. The topic of Amy's piece intrigues. I've no idea if she can pull it off, but I'd love to see her try.

― s woods, Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

a good, rational explanation why.

actually, it's sort of obvious.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The topic of Amy's piece intrigues

It intrigues because it condemns without saying what she's going to condemn them for -- which is a good function of a trailer or abstract or snippet, to build anticipation.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Here's what she wrote in the P&J comments, which is why I approach the prospect of her panel with a spastic horror:

"Don't the White Stripes seem a little too white for their own good? And I'm not just talking about their complexions. Like, would it kill them to get out in the street and mingle with some brown people once in a while? I mean brown people that aren't dead or really old bluesmen, or Mick Collins? Or that scary slave, er, bodyguard they had with them on Conan O'Brien."

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post)
I guess the reason why this doesn't intrigue me is that the abstract seems to acknowledge nothing beyond The White Stripes and "commercially dominating hip-hop" (as if Evanescence, Nickelback, Good Charlotte, Coldplay, JOSH GROBAN and the numerous other non-rap groups that have sold more than the White Stripes don't exist) and the implication that they're not "innocent" just because they wear pancake and are openly not fond of hip-hop. I just can't see where this could go that would be of any value. Sorry if that strikes you as gross.

(and now after seeing Nate's p'n'j excerpt of hers)
and yeah, why are the White Stripes of all groups being pointed out for this? Have Simple Plan been seen with "brown people"? What exactly does she WANT from the Stripes? What are they GUILTY of?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i take it you didn't read jack's novak-like "white people are the black man's bitches" screed in blender, nate?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I didn't. I don't read Blender. And what do you mean "Novak-like"? Novak who? 'Scuse the ignorance.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, bob novak, pinch-faced right-wing shill. if i still have the issue i'll quote it. jack expounds very il-liberally on hip hop and black-white relations.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

This is so obvious. Look, if the Stripes start hanging out with black people then they're not making rock. They have to steal from black people and then avoid them for it to be rock, duh.

― dean! (deangulberry), Saturday, 21 February 2004 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a subscription to Blender and I totally missed his il-liberal statement on black-white relations. I definitely caught the "I don't like hip-hop, whatever happened to wholesome values" talk. Though he didn't seem particularly fond of Britney Spears either. And less time I checked, she was white and Mississippi John Hurt wasn't. At best I can see him being accused of...ROCKISM.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I heard he said something about "rap just isn't advancing enough maaaan" which I agree is kind of a backwards thing to say but even if I listen for it I can't really hear his music as a direct reaction to any other specific music (unlike fellow Detroiter Seger and his emphasis on writing songs about the Greatness-o-Rock in the late '70s). The black-white relations bit I haven't heard anything about yet.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i am assuming yancey's referring to conservative commentator bob novak. (hi yancey!)

i think this thread sucks. she wrote her thesis on the white stripes, if i recall -- i think her presentation has the potential to be pretty good.

― geeta (geeta), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

obv., anthony. i definitely ain't accusing him of being racist -- i could care less what jack white thinks of anything (and would care even less less if he could write another song as "yr pretty good looking"). i just found his blender comments (there's one in particular that i remember i almost started a thread about, though i can't think of what he said now) shocklingly aggressive and reactionary. combine this with anecdotes i've heard from friends/enemies/acquaintances of his, and a portrait of a close-minded, unhappy man emerges. more makeup'll fix it tho.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

tht thing she wrote on the white stripes for P&J seems a bit silly but then I know amy's (i) intelligent and (ii) a good writer so it makes me stop and think what am I missing not what is she missing. as for this, s woods is otm, it's intriguing, I don't get the feeling that she's thought up a pun and then tried to run with it (is that 'cos I trust her? who knows) but anyway who cares if that is why she's running with it, it'll could be (i) funny and (ii) insightful and if I were at the EMP thing I'd go listen to her talk.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(example of a nu-garage band that wears their gripes on their sleeves: Watts, whose "Cool American" lamented that "the kids just wanna hear a good beat" as if it's a bad thing)

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd probably check this out if a)I was going and b)it wasn't at the same time as Xgau's presentation.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread will get 200+ replies.

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

dude you so jinxed it.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe I'm just pissed/embarrassed that a band I haven't bothered to really "know" outside the way they sound on records has so much weird baggage and that there'll be some sort of weird moral impetus placed on people to not like it*.

*not to be confused with a weird moral impetus placed on people to like it but also like other things

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I just don't like race-baiting. Ironically this was why Nate's Outkast p&j thread rankled me (though other people debated that enough that I had no need to put my two cents in).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

hey would you people be calling this thread gross if it was about something xgau was submitting?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"not like it" = "not like the music"

If I had to sell every album I had where the artist made questionable sociopolitical statements out of context of the album itself I would be able to buy a round-trip ticket to Seattle and the EMP conference myself.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I wasn't race-baiting, I was rockist-baiting

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not all that interested in what Jack White has to say about anything and am willing to believe that he is as Yancey describes. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the panel topic, and I find the abstract above "gross" in its stupidity.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

to be honest, I'm insanely jealous of amy phillips. regular writing for the voice, editor on record as really liking her writing (d'uh), young, intelligent etc. lives in new york! probly has met geeta! (ha.) but you know what, I've not read that much of her stuff. in fact, probably just the sonic youth article, which is great. I though. I'm gunna go read a bunch of her stuff right now!

± lazyness.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't be calling it gross if this was a Xgau thing, I dunno why. probably a combination of presumptuous patronising attitude ('amy's young lay off a bit') and I wouldn't have that nate and miccio being jerks abt someone I like feeling, cs I never read more than 20 sentences by Xgau in my life. in fact, probably as little as I read of amy, and look I'm calling her by her first name, funny. plus, other stuff.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

what really cracks me up: the "moment in the sun" bit.
The White Stripes must have their lebensraum!

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I apologize sincerely for believing that Amy Phillips' writing is not very good and that she comes to some ill-thought-out conclusions. All critics are great and wonderful.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

that's not what I'm saying nate. is it?

can you explain to me? from above, just take one of her 'conclusions' and explain how it's ill thought out. I'm not trying to shut down the thinking here.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm dumb, so type slowly.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the idea that the White Stripes need to embrace hip-hop to not be thought of as closet racists is pretty ill thought out.

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(she's really cute too, cozen. not that that has anything to do wih anything and i'm ashamed of myself! i'll be leaving now. hi geeta! hi yancey!)

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Or that scary slave, er, bodyguard they had with them on Conan O'Brien."

Yeah, nothing inflammatory or ill-thought out there.

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Ideas I have issue with:

-That there's a bonafide racial undercurrent to the critical big-upping of Elephant, as opposed to a plain old rockist one, or an even plainer older "I like the lyrics and the riffs" undercurrent
-That the White Stripes need to tap into mainstream modern hip-hop aesthetics, when it would in all likelihood just come off as uncharacteristic pandering if they did
-That bodyguard thing (xp)

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps you could take one of her conclusions and explain to us how its well thought out.

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

white people like their shit simple, not all proggy and complex like hip-hop folx.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

why didn't they accept my paper, Bamboozled Again Up On Yonder Cold Mountain:Minstrelsy, The White Stripes, and the Dialectical Hegemony of a Dystopian Diaspora in the Motor City?

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Because you forgot to put a space after the colon.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate, if you're not "intrigued" by her thesis, why start the thread? I have to conclude that either you ARE intrigued or that you want to attack her idea before it gets off the ground (but even if you want to "attack her idea," which I would have no problem with, that would surely suggest you're intrigued enough to discuss this, no). What's gross to me is the framing of the question and the calling Amy out in the title. Call me a wimp I don't give a fuckin' shit (and no I'm not friends with Amy or anything).

I'm (un?)fortunately not able to stick around now. Toodle-oo and happy slamming y'all.

― s woods, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Also because it was accidentally written about Eminem

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't understand the bodyguard comment. I suspect she doesn't think he was a slave. what a loaded word though, she left it in as well even after she realised she maybe shouldn't have ('...er,...') - is she speaking out loud?

the critical reception of elephant. as far as I understand it, yeah, has been written along and against ("do not pay more than 2d. 5s. [or whatever the joke is!] for this record") the old entrenched lines of rockism and retro-fetishism. I don't know anything about the white stripes, I've largely managed to avoid them ("spin whites on 90º to get out retro-rock revivalist stains!"), and so don't know the minutiae of their critical reception. but I've read little to nothing in the reviews I have managed to read on the racial aspects of their reception. because perhaps that would require the writers to look more inwards than they're used to, which is pretty hard to do ("hello! immanent outsider?! wha?!") - so I think it's an interesting and worthy (god I hate that word) topic.

your second point, I'd like to think about it.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

is cozen being weird on this thread?

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

their...raw, stripped-down sound contrast sharply with dark-skinned rappers and their complex digitized rhythms

Notice how she pulls a switcheroo on the typical language surrounding the "noble savage," calling the creations of white folk simple and the creations of black folk (er...make that "dark-skinned-folk") "complex."

I hope that Amy's piece delves into the subject more complicatedly that that, since it's unfair to both sides of the equation. I mean, I think we can accept that even if "Get Low" is probably multi-layered soundwork that's the result of Lil John spending weeks in the studio work with all kinds of real complicated technology, it can still be described as sounding "raw" and "stripped-down" And even if we agree "Death Letter" sounds "raw" and "stripped-down" to us, we can also say it sounds that way because it took years for Jack White to master his guitar so he could do certain things with it (things he may not fully understand, but a neurologist might).

(I also suspect that the word "polyrhythms" will be used in an inaccurate or misleading way. Just a hunch.)

I don't hold much hope for it. I disliked the SY essay, and while I don't think this premise is obviously wrong, it's such a touchy subject I can easily imagine writers I really admire fucking it all up.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

not read the whole thing but would be interested to see how much the White Stripes image is taken into account with regards to the sophistication of their visual (Gondry videos, die-stijl reference) identity and the juxtaposition with the relative simplicity of the music (which IS reflected in their image in some ways, just being as they are man with guitar and girl with drums and two colours, and that's pretty much it) - which just begs the question for me 'why does Gondry not direct more hip-hop videos?' is it because supposed target audience would not understand or care about his metaphors and trickery? that's kind of a shame if so...

i also wonder if Phillips actually does refer to the White Blood Cells cover in the way i fear she might.

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

[insert "?" after "no"]

― s woods, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I could take one of her conclusions and explain how it's well thought out. no, wait I couldn't. I'm not sure I could explain how it's ill thought out either. I'm really bad w. logic, don't believe in it mate, I'm not attacking here (there's always so much attack and defense on ilm! it's bloody ingrained. whatever happend to discursive reason?!) I'm just intrigued.

am I being weird on this thread?

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

(xp seward, then xp woods, then jeez)

I have doubts that her idea can get off the ground, at least with the attitude she's shown so far ("they have a SLAVE, tee hee").

Intrigue is but one of many reasons to start a thread. Another reason is fear.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

black rappers have black bodyguards too, which i'm sure she was aware of

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Are the White Stripes really the polar opposite of rap? 'cuz I don't hear that at all. For one, a lot of rap, even Timba/Neptunes produced stuff, can still sound pretty stripped down i.e. "Grindin'." xxxxpost

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I am not being weird on this thread, just gross and sucky.

My visceral "what the fuck?" reaction has nothing to do with the potential in the most fundamental level of the argument -- "where do the White Stripes fit in a pop world dominated by a racially and aesthetically divergent scene, especially when Jack's aesthetic posits them as a bonafide throwback" -- but the tangential clogging with convoluted ideas of what consitutes "technical proficiency" (re Daddino's point) and an implication that what the White Stripes are doing is somehow aesthetically wrong is what set me off.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I love it when RJG is weird on threads.

Cozen, I have met Geeta. Do you... envy... me?

― the blissfox, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Are the White Stripes really the polar opposite of rap?
No shit! Anybody ever heard Staind?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah the Stripes kinds remind me of rap, what with all the minimalism and formal constraints rhetoric Jack White's always babbling about.

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I envy you for much more than that, the pinefox.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I really doubt I could do much justice to this subject, either, in all fairness.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

''What's gross to me is the framing of the question and the calling Amy out in the title.''

yeah and you've just taken one para- from this piece/paper and used this thread to thrash it (maybe that's all you have but why crap on it without seeing the rest of it).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

nate: it sounds like a very very difficult thesis to wangle. do they publish these on the web eventually?

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm reacting to the entire abstract myself. And anytime you're reacting to an article about a paper you're basically doing the same thing.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The rest of the paper:

"The previous paragraph is the conclusion of many critics but in fact they're wrong, and this paper studies the actual truth of the situation."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah the Stripes kinds remind me of rap, what with all the minimalism and formal constraints rhetoric Jack White's always babbling
about.

they remind me more of a lars von trier movie. all black and white and creepy.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

have you seen any lars von trier movies?

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I remember Ludacris telling an interviewer how much he liked the White Stripes. He also said he wanted to sample the "bass" line to Seven Nation Army.

― Christian Rawk (Christian Rawk), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

they remind me more of a lars von trier movie. all black and white and creepy.
Yeah, and sometimes there's singing.

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, yeah, but Luda's a light-skinned* rapper with complex digitized rhythms.

*as self-described in "Coming 2 America"

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha right now BET is playing a Mack 10 video and it's got all these little slide guitar sounds!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah but isn't Mack 10 Ice Cube's slave?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, Ice was just tweaking his nipples in the video (I think) but I don't think that alone is evidence of a true S&M relationship.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd rather give Jerry Lewis a sponge bath then attend one of thosze EMP things.

― rumple., Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)


Well, yeah, but Luda's a light-skinned* rapper with complex digitized rhythms.

and yet simultaneously it's a raw, stripped-down sound! Luda must be our new mixed-race man!

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Didn't we already tackle a lot of these issues in this thread ?

And hey, don't be hating on my EMP panel (actually, maybe this is good since it'll bring out more people). Ok, hate away.

― Oliver Wang (Oliver Wang), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

No, now that I think on it, Ice may have just been lifting his shirt. Forget I said anything. Hey...R. Kelly!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

He was Ice's chauffeur in the Gangsta Nation video. Mack 10 knows his place.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate, I basically had the same reaction you did when I saw her panel, and then voila, I see you have a thread already for it. Maybe I'd be more intrigued if that panel was being led by someone else. At least, I'd like to think so. But Amy Phillips? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

― don weiner, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I would give Greil Marcus just as much shit if he wrote that abstract.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

haha this thread is awful.

Just attack away, lets not take a look at what she's saying or how she arrived at what she's saying.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Julio do you read?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean Nate totally pointed out his problems what she's saying. I did too.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

and have you ever heard an article in the paper that talks about a recent paper or study? You're not reading in the actual paper, you're basically reading an abstract. And you can't help but react to it. And that's what we're doing here.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah Anthony, I'm inclined to believe that I would not give a shit no matter who wrote the abstract, but if it were one of my friends or associates, I'd at least have to fake it.

And Julio, I think it's exactly what the abstract IS saying that has spawned that attacks. That, and other things she has written.

― don weiner, Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

'that abstract' is not the paper.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

that should be "article in the newspaper" in my last post to make it clearer.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, good; that's nice.

― the firefox, Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

haha this thread is awful.

Just attack awayblindly defend based upon personal affection, lets not take a look at what she's saying or how she arrived at what she's saying.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

haha the pinefox!

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

gabbeneb- did you read the post I wrote after that one.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes - I don't have access to the paper. The abstract has been presented for discussion, so I'm discussing the abstract.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Who came up with the idea that the contents of an abstract are somehow beyond discussion, anyways?

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

the thing is though, gabbnebb, I wasn't blindly defending, I was defending based on what little I know about amy and what little I know about communicating and talking and thinking. I'm interested in what she might have to say. that is the thrust of what I was saying. that and I think amy's reputation round here has reached the point in certain quarters that it doesn't matter that she's trying something as ambitious (stupidly ambitious ambitiously stupid) as this folly (fully brilliant thesis) she's knuckled in the face straight off the tag line. ok that isn't what I was saying, but I might say it now. I thought I heard the sound of one knee jerking. ok two, and was curious why. 'in fact just do a search on ilm for the words 'Frank Kogan' and you'll notice the eventual point in each thread where I slink off all ideas abandoned to rest my face into my pillow, sad, angry' paraphrase from something frank 'my friend' kogan who I like (hi frank!) which is maybe indicative of ilm's discursive malaise. but yeh whatever, where's my pillow?

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

contents of the abstract are wholly up for discussion: that's the point, no? what repulsed nate was the very idea of this paper?

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

the thing is though, gabbnebb, I wasn't blindly defending, I was defending based on what little I know about amy

I wasn't talking about you. But I too was speaking based in part on what little I know about her - the SY piece, full stop - which I found similarly, shall we say, immature.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

see, I'm just as bad. ('in fact when I finally get round to writing the 96 theses [hi mark!] I will start off with a list of the reasons and ways I, me, am guilty of rockism.')

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

she wrote her thesis on the white stripes, if i recall

so what?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

she has a breadth of knowledge and research under her belt on the subject so might actually have something interesting to say about them in one way or another?

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

baskin-robbins knows how to make ice cream but if what it's in the little sample spoon tastes like shit I don't buy the whole cone, dig?

(METAPHOR OF THE DAY)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

wrote a thesis on subject /= have a depth of knowledge on subject

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

what repulsed nate was the very idea of this paper?

click here! the great thing is you won't even have to leave the thread!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i've seen some lars von trier movies. maybe i was thinking of dick van patten.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

remember that conference on pop music that franklin bruno attended and delivered a paper about blonde on blonde?

when and where was that?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry nate.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

that must have been it. the white stripes remind me of I remember Mama. Black and white and creepy!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't think of any von trier movies that are in black and white, scott, was all I was saying. but I figure I get what you meant.

wrote a thesis on a subject /= have a depth of knowledge on subject

yeah, yr gunna have to take me through this one slowly too, amst. ppl shd just thk of this as the 'cozen is dumm but likes amy phillips [haha 'so likes...'?] this is where we help him understand the world, his world, and her world'.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

to attack someone just bcz of an abstract (was it written by her?)(and not give her the chance to expand on the idea, maybe not a very good one we don't know) is just, you know, lame.

plus with the SY thread she's not seen as much of a writer, thinker/whatever so I do think you need the full thing bcz she doesn't even have a chance to be taken seriously as it is.

daddino also said: ''I hope that Amy's piece delves into the subject more complicatedly that that''

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I take her seriously.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

don't bogart that shit, seward. puff puff pass.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

what do you want me to take you through? i don't get it. i just don't think someone having written a thesis on something (undergrad thesis or master's thesis, whatever) is really an indication that they necessarily have something interesting to say about it, especially not in cultural studies and the humanities in this day and age. not to mention the abstract does raise some serious doubts which the appeal to "expertise" (feeble as it is) doesn't have a chance of disspelling.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

that was to cozen

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i actually liked her britney piece that she co-wrote better than the SY one, but i really liked the SY one too.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

depth of knowledge /= something interesting to say. that's where our wires were crossing.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

seward- how dare you do that?! ;)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I "attacked" her (well, her position, not her personal hygiene or her upbringing or anything) bcz of a smarmy P&J remark that looks like a harbinger and/or excerpt of that more fleshed-out thesis. i.e. I saw the EMP schedule, saw her name on the list and the revelation that she would be expounding on the same kinds of things she said in the P&J comment, and went "oh no".

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

(my post wasn't in response specifically to the taking seriously stuff - I take her as seriously as any other critic except maybe 5 who I take more seriously. just more to the kind of interjections that have been going on here)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i dunno with the standards of research in the humanities as they are at the undergrad level i dont even know if writing a thesis means someone even knows much about the subject let alone has something interesting to say

but this is my own little axe i'm grinding at so i'll shut up

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I eagerly await the rules on what text we can and cannot react to. (I'll expand on this request in my thesis paper, so please don't you dare respond to what I just wrote!)

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

ppl seem to be saying ''the abstract sounds so awful so I won't even listen to anything else she might have to say''.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

but what else is an abstract for?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

wow, how horribly judgemental of us

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't read her senior thesis on the White Stripes, so I have no idea whether or not to assume it a) reflects a "depth of knowledge" or b) demonstrates any sort of insight or c) is well written or d) has been put through a rigorous peer review or e) is accurate. If it were for a master's or doctoral program, I'd probably give that bit of background information more weight, but as an undergraduate paper I'm not going to take it all that seriously until I see it. All I have to work on are a couple of pieces she's written for the Voice, which did not impress me at all, and the abstract. From those two areas, the panel looks like a dubious idea.

― don weiner, Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"the leadoff single from the new Creed album is shit, but who knows, maybe the rest of it is totally crunked out"

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

but when people go after critics at least you've got a review or a piece to look at.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"boy this abstract seems absent of ideas but who am i to judge whether i want to read the entire paper on this basis? no, i am morally obligated to read the entire academic corpus."

my senior thesis was shit and i think i'm sort of smart

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"Don't the White Stripes seem a little too white for their own good? And I'm not just talking about their complexions. Like, would it kill them to get out in the street and mingle with some brown people once in a while?

I hope that the locals at the conference get called out for living in a 75% white/10% black city. As opposed to NYC (45/27) or, say, Detroit (12/82). They must be racists.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I would love to find that the paper is enlightening and convincing. But given her past published work, I think my prejudices are justified.

― don weiner, Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i can't believe i wasted 15 minutes of my birthday reading this.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

happy birthday strongo!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

haha Jess Harvell is Molly Ringwald in Sixteen Candles.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

would you like me to do a thread hulk. I gotta go home in a minute or two.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll just echo the groaning up the thread, and leave it at that.

Happy birthday, Jess.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

ok I've done a thread on ile. now home time *runs away*

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

happy birthday, jess!

I like amy's stuff but i would also like to say that i have no problem with nate starting a thread like this. She's a critic, and yeah it would be nice if we all could have read her paper already, but that shouldn't stop people from arguing/criticizing/whatever. i mean you get a good "idea" of what her paper is about. i also find it intriguing and would like to hear more.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey Don, if you're actually coming to EMP (and based on your comments here, I'm kind of hoping you won't but I don't think Eric would like me to say that...oops, too late), the panel, as a whole, shouldn't be judged by the lead paper - hell, in most of the EMP panels, the order is alphabethical.

This is actually MY panel - I asked to have Amy and Mark's papers included with mine (me being of the conference planning committee) - the fourth paper was added after the fact but I'm not mad at that. I think that might actually be one of the most interesting papers in the mix (about post 9/11 ISLAMIC pop music), certainly more so than my bullshit about race and Asian American hip-hoppers.

To the ILM massive: I look forward to seeing many of you at the EMP this year even though many of you scare me. Cheerio.

― Oliver Wang (Oliver Wang), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

they are all just a bunch of pussycats, Oliver. Don't be scared.Sometimes they forget to take their medicine.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

not read the whole thing but would be interested to see how much the White Stripes image is taken into account with regards to the sophistication of their visual (Gondry videos, die-stijl reference) identity and the juxtaposition with the relative simplicity of the music (which IS reflected in their image in some ways, just being as they are man with guitar and girl with drums and two colours, and that's pretty much it) - which just begs the question for me 'why does Gondry not direct more hip-hop videos?' is it because supposed target audience would not understand or care about his metaphors and trickery? that's kind of a shame if so...

the gondry videos might be sophisticated in some sense but they are quite intentionally very basic in concept (if not execution), it's his stated intent with those clips

― s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

My guess is that Gondry hasn't been offered the opportunity to direct a hip hop video. It's a hired job, it's not as if he's making music videos for any old song that he likes.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is judging an entire paper/presentation based on its abstract and your own preconceived notions of Amy's argument. Simply grand.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Oliver--my comments were not intended to be directed towards the panel as a whole, only at Amy's particular paper. So, sorry to offend you or anyone else who is participating on the panel. It was completely unintentional, just my bad choice of words regarding the format. As for Amy and her paper, well, I'm sure she stands by what she wrote and I look forward to hearing how she vigorously defends herself. I doubt I can make it this year, so I guess you can be happy about that.

(And I'm not really sure why you wouldn't want me to come to EMP, let alone even participate in your panel, just because I think Amy's premise is flawed or that her writing does not impress me. Do you not want anyone there to contest her assertions? Or have I been rude somewhere on this thread? Do you feel the same way about Nate?)

― don weiner, Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Amy's thesis is judging an entire rock group based on an abstract and her own preconceived notions of racial intent. Simply grand.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the way that Cozen and I have very slowly conversed on this thread.

It is funny how he talks about 'Amy's Reputation' being a problem that we can't think ourselves out of, when I have never met anyone who has ever heard of her.

― the firefox, Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, I forgot I'm only supposed to be on the recieving end of this sort of thing

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

what abstract is she basing her thesis on? (2xp)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

pancake makeup or something

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i have no idea who this person is for the record

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Someone find some abstracts from Animal Behaviour about spiders orbs being depleted and shit and see how you motherfuckers cope.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I have just followed the link at thread's top to whoever the lassie is. It seems like she slagged off Sonic Youth and said they should split up.

I very much agree; I also think they should sod off. So I don't disagree with her about that.

However, the bit where she complains about people being white is rubbish and she too can sod off.

Hi, Cozen!

― the winefox, Saturday, 21 February 2004 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

when are you gonna get to the bit about dizzee rascal being 'vile'?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 21 February 2004 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

What are you talking about Julio, they look nothing like each other:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39319000/jpg/_39319294_rascal_pa.jpg http://www.poster.net/him/him-ville-valo-5200017.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 21 February 2004 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

You people are weird.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Saturday, 21 February 2004 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... scene.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i think it's a potentially fruitless argument but i'd be interested to see what see does with it nonetheless. i also think the fact that there are 170 new answers based on an abstract alone speaks in favour of the notion that this it is an idea worthy of further discussion.

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Admittedly, one of them contains a picture of Ville Valo from him.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

and another 25-30 were me spazzing out

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i also think the fact that there are 170 new answers based on an abstract alone speaks in favour of the notion that this it is an idea worthy of further discussion.

evidently there should be more panels based on shitty Pitchfork reviews then.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's give Ryan Schreiber a PhD!

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

anthony you do know what an 'abstract' is right?

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)

of course. I'm just saying that the 170 new answers doesn't necessarily coincide with worthwhile subjects. Just controversial ones.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not sure if there's a difference.

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: Master Of Puppets vs. Reign In Blood (119 new answers)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 21 February 2004 23:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i see.

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

dude, slayer.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

People who constantly have to prove they aren't racist, and accuse everything they can of being racist, are most often racist themselves.

― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

oh christ.

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

although, you know, i was torn with that thread. that was a tricky one. i had to use all of my formidable mental energies.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

that's METAL energies!!!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

everybody is racist. we've already established that.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

or maybe that was just an episode of geraldo i saw.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

while I'm not gonna pull an Allen-sized j'accuse on the subject, I would like to ask Phillips what her damage is.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

on this subject specifically. I get the SY damage kinda.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

the white stripes are weirdos. that's my damage.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

while I'm not gonna pull an Allen-sized j'accuse on the subject, I would like to ask Phillips what her damage is.
-- Anthony Miccio (anthonymicci...), February 22nd, 2004.


I just thought this thread wasn't angry enough. Now we can really get down to business!

― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:13 (twenty-two years ago)

actually your "are people who accuse people of racism secretly racists?" kind of sounds deserving of it's ILE fun 300 post thread (I have no opinion on the matter currently). And if anything I just discovered that I guess I am interested in the paper. I so want to ask about her damage.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:20 (twenty-two years ago)

that should be of it's own ILE fun thread

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

ILM: You're a Racist

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 22 February 2004 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Kill Whitey

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:34 (twenty-two years ago)

All of 'em? That'll take some time.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

ps had she written it on the Black Keys she might have a stronger case :)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah...in sad fitting irony I have been hamstrung by CP Time and not started early enough.

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Well JEEZ, hop to.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

first Ford, then Herzog

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

that's all of 'em

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Sunday, 22 February 2004 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread spent all of yesterday sitting around with 2 responses, I got to bed for a couple of hours, and what do I see: 200 and something sooky responses & Jess having a birthday (the problem with not being an American ILMer).

Ah well, I now have to go to a friend's birthday party (in 40+ degree heat - fuck). The expensive presents, hugs and love are physically my friend's, but spiritually Jess'

― Jedmond, Sunday, 22 February 2004 02:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish cozen wasn't asleep.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 22 February 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)

If I was going to choose a white band to attack for being white, I'd pick one without a groove, personally, or at least a band who TRY to have one but FAIL.

The Stereophonics - if I was black, I'd be insulted.

― Stupid (Stupid), Sunday, 22 February 2004 02:48 (twenty-two years ago)

oh I'm not asleep.

hi, the pinefox!

I'm sorry I wasted yr time jess.

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 03:09 (twenty-two years ago)

looking back on this I really hope my linking of that "jailbait" thread isn't being construed as some sort of condoning of the sorts of things said in that thread. I just vaguely remember her being really controversial, though the "omg teenage gurlz kant rite" fracas obscured the more relevant points that her take on SY was kinda solipsistic and didn't really mention the music very much and now OK I will shut up

And holy shit, funny that I brought up Brother Ali...

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Sunday, 22 February 2004 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I take issue with the idea that Trick Daddy, Jay-Z or Brother Ali are ugly, even if any of them say as much.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 22 February 2004 04:13 (twenty-two years ago)

trick daddy is hot!

― jeremy jordan (cruisy), Sunday, 22 February 2004 05:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Jay-Z is not!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 22 February 2004 05:28 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.beepworld.de/memberdateien/members7/alexboulala/jay-z.jpg

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 22 February 2004 05:37 (twenty-two years ago)

aw, i love you jigga, don't get me wrong, and you're rolling with a might fly girl, no doubt, but g, and i say this with the greatest respect, you ain't winning no friggin' beauty contests, ya dig?

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 22 February 2004 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

So are Radiohead in their own universe then? Oh right, Xgau said they didn't have enough Africa in 'em.

that isn't what he said at all, as has been discussed here at length. he said that for a guy with "a pained, transported intensity, pure up top with hints of hysterical grit below, [Yorke] has as little Africa in it as a voice with those qualities can." that's not a complaint and it's not a request that Yorke get more Africa in him--reads more like a description of someone he finds soulful in a specifically Euro kind of way. God I'm sick of this meme.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 22 February 2004 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

it's xgau's fault for phrasing it in an incendiary way then

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 22 February 2004 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

(I also realize this may very well have been said in jest, given the thread topic, but I've seen that line misquoted a LOT on here as po-facedly serious as anything so plz. forgive the peeved tone.)

xpost: incendiary? why, because he mentioned Africa? please let's not have this thread all over again.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 22 February 2004 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, for real, saying certain styles of singing originated in Africa and different ones originated elsewhere isn't exactly (a) incendiary or (b) news.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 22 February 2004 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"originated" might be wrong word, pls. sub "are rooted in"

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 22 February 2004 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

you're right though, we did hash this out as far it could have gone

sorry

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:40 (twenty-two years ago)

You gotta hand it to Phillips, she's tackling a tough subject. I wouldn't want to be sitting in her chair. Someone who attends please report back later on what was discussed.

Her P&J comments = "I have more black friends than Jack White." Not an interesting subject.

― Mark (MarkR), Sunday, 22 February 2004 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder if she wrote her thesis like she writes other things.

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

its not a tough subject, its a non-subject

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 22 February 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I think if they just increased their beta-carotene intake, they'd look a lot better.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 22 February 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Yo Cozen I have met Geeta and Amy Phillips, how about that? Which is why I want to jump in here and ask: what exactly is with this Amy Phillips "reputation" that ILM is always developing? This imagined blondie "jailbait" hipster well-connected socialite ... I'm not gonna offer some gestalt encapsulation of her because I barely know her at all, but let's just say that by and large a lot of people here seem to be projecting. Let's just say that.

― nabiscothingy, Monday, 23 February 2004 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

She just brings out the Travis Bickle in some people.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I think she's published enough that people can form an opinion on her *writing* reputation without it being a projection.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm insulted by the Stereophonics for plenty of reasons. Being black has nuttin' to do with it!

― Rick James, Bitch (Donna Brown), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

word.

― Anthony Miccio, library clerk (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i agree with nabisco. and if you have such issues with her argument, why not go see her presentation at EMP, raise your hand, ask a question, and argue there?

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with Geeta (who agrees with Nabisco).

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Nabisco was commenting on the creation of this Amy Phillips character, not on our right to react to something someone's written. And how come nobody tells someone to write to Pitchfork (or better yet, fly down to Chicago and complain!) everytime somebody has a beef with claims made on that site? Jeanne, Geeta, would either of you be complaining about this thread if it was about an abstract by Greil Marcus?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree.

pre-emptive 'slurp slurp'.

nitsuh, you know I envy you.

and to be fair (I don't know if you were talking about me nitsuh, but I got the feeling you weren't) I'm also projecting a touch too.

go ask her a question.

― cozen (Cozen), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

So, if I have issues with her argument, I have to go to EMP to confront her? That's preposterous.

it may be true that a lot of people around here are projecting, but it seems appropriate given a) the forum, b) the subject (a public person of sorts), c) the abstract, d) her published comments that are directly related to her abstract, and e) other published works by the writer.

― don weiner, Monday, 23 February 2004 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

go, ask her a question.

that changes it enough.

― cozen (Cozen), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Anthony, would *you* (or anyone) be complaining about this thread if it was about an abstract by Greil Marcus?

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd be complaining on this thread for sure. The abstract is what offended me, not the author of it. Nothing I've posted here implies otherwise. And god knows it wouldn't be the first time I've thought Greil Marcus was talking out of his ass.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i think what is written on the site is enough to start a discussion with. no matter who wrote it. there doesn't seem to be much of a discussion going on about the white stripes though. i was kinda hoping for that.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)

If the abstract is what offended you, then I have no problem with that whatsoever. I don't care one way or the other if people don't like or respect Phillips' work. But this thread reeks of a witch hunt. And that's what's got me posting on this thread.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)

She turned me into a newt.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post)

(in which I explain that I'm not defending her writing, which I haven't seen in a long time, but rather just commenting on the person imagined behind it; which is a real real thing because just from that last ILM thread I had a very particular image of who this Amy Phillips was supposed to be; which when I actually met her was funny, sort of like an old cartoon where someone's like "it's a monster in the closet! it's a monster in the closet!" -- and then when the closet is actually opened, oops, it's a tiny cute little mouse.)

So fair enough, Byron, but I feel like ILM threads about her seem to have concentrated on this weirdish image of her, such that ... well, let's just say that ILM had created such a particular caricature of her in my head that it took me weeks after meeting her to put together that she was that Amy Phillips. Note that that's not a defense of her writing; and in fact maybe there's a good discussion to be had about how and why her writing itself allows people to imagine her the way they do; hey and maybe she wants you to think that; but somehow I doubt it. Point being: when people try to criticize beyond the writing -- to like imagine the person writing it -- in this case there's this weird wrongness, which has nothing to do with my defending her writing, and everything to do with it being sort of deeply funny, if you've even briefly met her, to see what some people appear to be dreaming up about her.

Also B, the other night I met this guy who knew you from the SLMFAs!

― nabiscothingy, Monday, 23 February 2004 01:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Boy, a lot of people on this board sure are testy about the White Stripes and race (I'd wonder why that was, but wait oh yeah we all know why.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:47 (twenty-two years ago)

but Jeanne, why are you defending this and not, say, Chris Ott or Pitchfork writer #3134? I'm curious as to why Amy Phillips brings out the Travis Bickle in both sides of this argument. Plus nobody's defending her abstract for its merits, just saying we don't have the right to critique it (and I think bnw's posts have pointed out why that's absurd).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

and if people are extra keen to note when Amy Phillips says something outrageous, I think she's brought a lot of that on herself. Her writing first came to my attention when a friend of mine (who, ironically enough, is of the female persuasion) pointed out how much Phillips' P'n'J comments pissed her off. Phillips has a tendency to use a really broad stroke and gets called for it. I don't think it's merely sexism that's given her this notoriety. I mean, shit, have we seen Jeanne Fury or Geeta hate threads yet?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I was wondering why Nate noted this abstract so quickly, but that he was already offended by her reckless use of the world "slave" in this years P'n'j comments. And for clarity's sake, the comments that pissed of my pal were from '01 or '00.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

woah. I'm typoing like crazy here. The first sentence of my last post should end with the words "should explain it."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Because with Pitchfork or any article, you have the published piece in front of you to debate. Phillips' entire paper (i.e. entire argument) is nowhere on this thread and it *won't* be on this thread (I don't think). You're arguing against the premise of her piece without hearing any of her back-up info, and it's a cheap, easy thing to do. There's nothing wrong that per se (hell, I do it frequently, I'll freely admit to that), but I don't think this thread was started with the honest intention of talking about the White Stripes and race, as has been echoed by other posters. (If Geeta or I ever get hate threads, I sure as fuck hope they're more intelligent than this one.)

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(Not that you're a dummy, Anthony. I'm not directing that last sentence to you specifically.)

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think it's merely sexism that's given her this notoriety.

Did I or anyone else say the "s" word? Don't think so.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Fuck I'll say it. It's part sexism, part ageism and part knee jerk reactions to anyone saying the words "white", "stripes" and "race" in the same sentence (and there is probably a bit of jealousy on at least a few poster's parts to boot.) And finally there is the uncomfortable feeling that IF Jack White really is just a teeny-weeny bit racist then OHMIFUCKINGOD they might be too and that would just be too hard to live with. Better squash that shit quick before they actually have to think such a subject.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Late-breaking possibly better way to say what I'm saying: since AP is young and reasonably successful at what she does, and because plenty of people here don't like her writing, there seems to have been this desire to explain why she's successful -- e.g. that last linked thread, which implies from the title on in that AP gets published "because," umm, Chuck Eddy wants to have sex with her. Which, when mixed with bits of the article in question and stirred, results in this AP-ditzy-alternateen-sexkitten caricature. AP seems to come in for a lot of this kind of Whying and Becausing, which is just funny because a lot of the ventured Becauses are just not on-track. Is all I mean.

As far as criticizing the abstract, I mean, go ahead and get as much mileage out of that as you care to.

Incidentally maybe I've just spent too much time looking at ILM but I can't imagine how anyone could tke part in the EMP deal without fearing being ripped to shreds in the process! They must be nicer there.

― nabiscothingy, Monday, 23 February 2004 02:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Sexism has been brought up plenty in other Amy Phillips threads, Jeanne. I'm just making it blunt here cuz I think it has something to do with why people are being shamed for critiquing her.

Alright, I wish Nate was here to speak for himself but I'll admit that judging by his reaction to my abstract excerpt he didn't even read it before starting this thread. That said, most of the comments afterwords (except for Cozen, who can very well defend himself cuz I'm not gonna) deal directly with the subject. Since the subject involves pop culture rather than a scientific study, I feel comfortable commenting on why I find her accusations (which are blatant in the excerpt) offensive. I have a hard time imagining what kind of plausable info could justify them, unless she access to V2 office memos or something.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Folks is always nicer in real life.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, bluntly: with AP there's this serious "why are they letting the dumb little girl write" thing going on here, and then it's always answered with "aha they adore the cute little excitable gum-chewing girl" -- hence wordage like "jailbait," for god's sake -- and none of this adds up with reality very well, so I think AP-criticism needs to really hone in on the ideas and not the imagined Secret of Her Success.

― nabsicothingy, Monday, 23 February 2004 02:15 (twenty-two years ago)

alex in sf, nabisco, jeanne fury otm.

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:16 (twenty-two years ago)

nabisco is dead on. I just think it's important to realize why she out of everyone is getting that kind of "dumb little girl" reaction.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:18 (twenty-two years ago)

But this thread reeks of a witch hunt

Would it reek if she were not young and female? If you want to defend her position, do it. If you want to say it's inappropriate to critique an abstract for a conference you can't attend to get the full picture, say that. But if we were critiquing an older and/or male writer's abstract for same, I don't think the perception would be the same.

If Jack White *is* a racist (as I quasi-admitted upthread), what does that have to do with her topic?

when mixed with bits of the article in question and stirred, results in this AP-ditzy-alternateen-sexkitten caricature

Is that caricature used by more than maybe one or two people (I'm not going to waste time checking) who are attacking her writing on *this* thread?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 23 February 2004 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, that link to the jailbait thread was an ill-thought-out red herring (this thread's answer to the word "tokenism", maybe), but my "oh god no" reaction is based strickly on past experience with Amy Phillips as a writer, not as a young woman or a stand-in for some weird gender/sex issues. Just because I dislike Jim DeRogatis' writing doesn't mean I think fat people shouldn't write about music. What I do believe is that Phillips' past work -- of which there's plenty for the looking, as evidenced by all those links in the Brother Ali article I posted last nite -- doesn't lend itself well to anything as important -- or as touchy -- as race. Which reminds me, I'm missing that Ego Trip special on VH1 classic.

I'm past being Travis Bickle at this point and have resigned myself to be Frank Pierce.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Which reminds me, I'm missing that Ego Trip special on VH1 classic.

Ego Trip, who quite ironically had their own weird-ass EMP moment...

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:16 (twenty-two years ago)

woah...Ego Trip special on VH1 Classic? EXPLAIN!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"tv's illest minority moments"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)

and it's on vh1 reg too

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)

(with ra the rugged man as "token white guy")

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:19 (twenty-two years ago)

for real? are you seriogoddamn I wish I could get VH1 Classic without getting 500 other stations. I just want one!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:21 (twenty-two years ago)

we find out bert & ernie are domincan and puerto rican, animal is mexican, and big bird is a vietnamese drag queen.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I knew it!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck you very much Jess

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Zonks!

TV's Illest Minority Moments Presented by Ego Trip is a 1-hour special focusing on the most compelling, controversial, and unintentionally hilarious race-related moments in TV history. Adapted from Ego Trip’s Big Book of Racism! (ReganBooks, 2002), TV's Illest Minority Moments takes an amusing look at the ethnic stereotypes and racial story lines found on classic sitcoms, dramas and cartoons. We also celebrate the daring shows and break-out characters that altered the TV landscape from Arsenio Hall and Pat Morita to Go-Go Gomez and Wrestling’s Iron Sheik.

Over the course of one hour, TV's Illest Minority Moments Presented by Ego Trip answers these pressing questions:
Which white crime-fighter had the coolest ethnic sidekick?

Why are people of color always the first to be eliminated on reality shows?

Ever notice that Latino sitcom stars only come around once every 20 years?

Who’s your favorite ethnic wrestler?

Think it’s strange that Daffy Duck … a black duck … is always fleeing from a white hunter?

Why is it that Asians guys can play martial artists capable of kicking the asses of 100 bad guys, yet they can’t ever seem to score a hot chick?

… and many, many more.
Please join VH1 and the writers of Ego Trip as we transform television's checkered history into one enlightening, provocative, and seriously funny hour of television.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:31 (twenty-two years ago)

ok wait jess were you being serious or what or arrrgggh. I want to see this.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i was being serious!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

big bird is a vietnamese drag queen.
even this???

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

You weren't SERIOUS about Big Bird!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Although I can imagine that the person in the Big Bird suit was both Vietnamese and a drag queen, actually.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Bruce Lee's wife was hott

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, i know that's like one step up from "dude, scooby and shaggy were total stoners" humor, but when they got to the vietnamese drag queen part i really did lose it.

x-post: yes!!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Sesame Street was so clearly the product of the '70s hahaha

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

sweet enola gay. I need to get a friend to tape this.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Phillips comments on the White Stripes in P&J were juvenile, and judging from the abstract, she is pursuing a similar line of thinking in her paper. Given that, I don't understand why anyone is surprised that Phillips is now being met with prejudice regarding her paper. She's not only taking on an explosive subject (race), but she's doing so with the added baggage of previous comments on the subject. She hasn't been given the benefit of doubt on her abstract for a reason taht seems fairly obvious to me.

― don weiner, Monday, 23 February 2004 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

it's on regular VH1. do you get that?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

man it pisses me off re: Enter the Dragon that Jim "bullSHIT Mr. Han Man" bought it but John Saxon lived

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't get TV period. It's the devil. But if its on normal TV I can get a pal in town to tape it.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:41 (twenty-two years ago)

VH1 is basic cable. Can't you just sneak into the TV lounges of a nearby college and watch it?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:43 (twenty-two years ago)

John Saxon was always best as a villain.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

well I'm at work till 11 and I'll be drinking from then to 2. my bad luck.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

"you know, for a bad guy, he sure has a lot of christmas presents"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha, they're playing the Shins!

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:46 (twenty-two years ago)

The Affirmative Action Superhero thing reminded me of that great "Prejudice Batman" bit on Dr. Katz.

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's on tomorrow at noon too.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh SHIT...the "What Race Am I?" segment on the Muppets is probably the funniest thing I've seen on TV in a long, long time...

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I was SHRIEKING!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:53 (twenty-two years ago)

the Sesame Street segment is dangerous to watch shortly after eating, and possibly life-threatening if done simultaneously

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Forgot Jim Kelly's last name. Sorry folx. Some fool threw panties at me.

Eddy Guerrero is AWESOME. Dude's WWE World Champion now, and he's going to Wrestlemania XX to beat the piss out of All-American Kurt "White George Foreman" Angle.

Fat Joe's reaction to the Big Bird as Vietnamese Drag Queen revelation was PRICELESS.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 23 February 2004 03:54 (twenty-two years ago)

And the show was senior developed by Joey Anuff, holy crud!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 February 2004 04:01 (twenty-two years ago)

This was a great show...enjoyable.

― djdee2005, Monday, 23 February 2004 04:23 (twenty-two years ago)

One reason I heart Amy P.: she is willing to say totally heretical shit. About which I frequently disagree with her--but her heresies are always matters of opinion, which means that they set off discussions.

― Douglas (Douglas), Monday, 23 February 2004 05:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Anthony, would *you* (or anyone) be complaining about this thread if it was about an abstract by Greil Marcus?

(raises hand)

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 23 February 2004 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't see why writing outlandish or offensive or heretical stuff should really be admired or privileged in itself

shouldn't saying sound and intelligent and *right* things be more important?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 23 February 2004 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Anthony, would *you* (or anyone) be complaining about this thread if it was about an abstract by Greil Marcus?

(raises hand)

-- amateur!st (amateur!s...) (webmail), February 23rd, 2004 2:17 AM. (amateurist) (later) (link)

wait! it's early in the morning here and i totally misinterpreted this, sorry, so just skip that entirely

i'm still confused, i need coffee and quick

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 23 February 2004 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Amateur!st--see, that's the thing--I think of a lot of A.P.'s more controversial positions as not unsound, not unintelligent, &... wrong, but they make me think about why I take issue with them. "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back," you know?

― Douglas (Douglas), Monday, 23 February 2004 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

ok, fair enough

i guess i know your posts well enough to know that you had a point

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 23 February 2004 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway lars did have a b&w movie -- zentropa.

also it seems like a strong argt could be made that the white stripes version of RAWK is v. distinct from some of the other "rock back, brought pie" (sorry jess) condendahs in no small part coz of its world-conquoring ambition.

alt. theme, perhaps open to more thought -- "why is it scary when white people stop being depressed?"

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 26 February 2004 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Zentropa isn't b&w.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 26 February 2004 07:38 (twenty-two years ago)

parts are?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 26 February 2004 07:38 (twenty-two years ago)

The colors are pretty muted, but it's all in color to my rememberance.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 26 February 2004 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.geocities.com/lars_von_trier2000/europa.html

" Runtime Denmark:107
Denmark/ Sweden / France / Germany / Switzerland
Language English / German
Black and White/ Color (Pathécolor)
Sound Mix: Dolby SR "

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 26 February 2004 07:48 (twenty-two years ago)

This message board has a pathological obsession with Amy Phillips. Your portrait of her as a gum-cracking, club-hopping hipster jailbait is flat out wrong.

But the thing is, there are WAY worse writers out there who are more successful and in bigger positions of power than Amy.

For example, this chick is an editor at SPIN, and she can barely put a sentence together. HOW did she get hired? Please someone explain. Her blog makes me want to put my head in an oven!

http://www.ultragrrrl.com/

― Sour Cup of Cunt, Thursday, 4 March 2004 07:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I need to watch Zentropa again and see how much is in B&W. Either way I'd say Scott's characteristization of Von Trier's mise en scene is kind of off.

(Nice login btw)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 4 March 2004 07:40 (twenty-two years ago)

not that the thread needs any further hot or not reduction but i have to say that this dark haired girl from ultragrrrl's photo album is totally phenomenal.

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/d61d7fce/bc/Lizzy%27s+23rd+birthday/__sr_/101-0135_IMG.jpg?pheOuRAByzahsRwZ

otherwise, that blog does appear pretty crap.

― brian badword (badwords), Thursday, 4 March 2004 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

um, somewhere back on topic: andre and jack are gonna do a cut together.

There was a great interview with the two of them where they basically both said everything on the rock and hip hop scene (themselves excluded) was played out shit. Anybody got a link?

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Thursday, 4 March 2004 08:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i will not be denied by yahoo trickery!

sorry, carry on ://

― brian badword (badwords), Thursday, 4 March 2004 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

We may only be talking about am abstract, but an abstract is supposed to accurately summarise a paper.

― mei (mei), Thursday, 4 March 2004 08:33 (twenty-two years ago)

You're arguing against the premise of her piece without hearing any of her back-up info, and it's a cheap, easy thing to do.
-- Jeanne Fury (jeannefur...), February 23rd, 2004.

But some of even the premise is dodgy:

In a pop music climate dominated commercially by hip-hop, Jack and Meg offer a lily-white alternative, their pale, pancake-makeup-covered faces and raw, stripped-down sound contrast sharply with dark-skinned rappers and their complex digitized rhythms.

She makes it sound like they planned it that way, rather than the music they make just being what they like. It's not their fault they're a success!

Why doesn't she compare them to Autechre (white, _extremely_ complex and digital) or Low (white, even 'simpler' than the white stripes)?
Because that wouldnt' further her argument, or attract as many readers.

― mei (mei), Thursday, 4 March 2004 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i don't really understand the debate on this thread - outside of the supposed kneejerk anti-amy element. the concept seems fairly suspect and i can fully appreciate people getting bent out of shape by the implication. i mean, you can't challenge the abstract until you've heard the whole deal? what's the point of it then? i wouldn't dismiss it out of hand but she must have some inside scoop to come with something that seems so inflammatory. personally, i don't really care about the stripes either way but i'm eagerly awaiting the whole story. shake your foundation and all that.

― brian badword (badwords), Thursday, 4 March 2004 09:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Why doesn't she compare them to Autechre (white, _extremely_ complex and digital) or Low (white, even 'simpler' than the white stripes)?

Uh...maybe because Autechre and Low weren't on the cover of every single American music/pop culture magazine published between March and June of last year? Part of the point, if I'm reading the abstract right, is that the media capitalized on the Whites' whiteness -- in a way it has so far failed to do for Low and Autechre.

I think the abstract suggests plenty of interesting stuff. I'm extrapolating, but it seems to me she's getting at the way the White Stripes have been positioned/positioned themselves (that's one of those tricky chicken-egg things) as champions of Real Music in an era of digitization, popization, and a whole lotta hip-hop (which a surprisingly large percentage of even my own peer group -- who grew up with hip-hop, for christ's sake -- still dismiss as "not real music".) Ironies abound, of course, in the notion of Jack White as a defender of traditional a.) songform and b.) musicianship, not least of which is that (as he not only admits but obviously relishes) many of those traditions are wholly or partly African-American at their roots. So you get a white guy (and a mostly white media) championing "real" music against "unreal" music, much of which is made by black people, but any charges of racism in the whole equation are blunted by the fact that Jack White really really loves Mississippi John Hurt. I mean, I think that's interesting, and I think those are the kind of topics worthy of discussion at a pop music chinstroking convention, assuming you think a pop music chinstroking convention is worthwhile in the first place (and if you don't, what th' heck are you doing on ILM?). There are a lot of other things wrapped up in there: Why do white artists sell more magazines than black artists, even if black artists are actually selling more records? What's the musical and cultural significance of bands without bass players (don't laugh until you actually think about the role of bass in 20th-century black music, and the fact that the most bass-dependent musics -- funk, reggae, hip-hop -- tend to be the "blackest")?

I don't know how much of all of that Amy Phillips has in mind, and how much she was just riffing and trying to come up with a catchy title (which a scan of the scheduled papers suggests would hardly make her unique), but either way she's got plenty of worthwhile stuff to chew on there. And I find it interesting that this thread was started by the same guy who was raising questions about hip-hop tokenism in P&J -- which seems like at least a related field of query to the one Phillips is exploring, the conscious or unconscious marginalization of popular black culture by the (mostly) white pop-culture media. Anyway, I have a friend who'll probably be at this, so I'm looking forward to hearing a report.

― spittle (spittle), Thursday, 4 March 2004 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

So you think her article's going to be more about the media?
That could be right.

― mei (mei), Thursday, 4 March 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, why didn't somebody suggest that earlier? it's all coming together now. maybe.

btw everyone, i emailed that spin editor earlier about the hot girl with the dark hair. her name is niki.

:B

carry on.

― brian badword (badwords), Thursday, 4 March 2004 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

This entire thread is a perfect example as to why I hate rock critics. Ta!

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Thursday, 4 March 2004 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, not too Ta!, or you wouldn't be here every day.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 4 March 2004 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

White people are the covers of magazines all of the time, and that includes white people who traffic in variations of music that is derived from black culture. I'm not sure why this makes Jack and Meg any more suspect than Kelly Clarkson, Beck, or Eminem.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Thursday, 4 March 2004 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

If memory serves Zentropa is about 85% black and white.

― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 4 March 2004 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i've seen some lars von trier movies. maybe i was thinking of dick van patten.


I stand by my ammended statement. have you ever seen an old episode of I Remember Mama? Very white stripes.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 4 March 2004 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Mathew:

As Spittle noted "the White Stripes have been positioned/positioned themselves (that's one of those tricky chicken-egg things) as champions of Real Music in an era of digitization, popization, and a whole lotta hip-hop (which a surprisingly large percentage of even my own peer group -- who grew up with hip-hop, for christ's sake -- still dismiss as "not real music".)"

Kelly Clarkson, Beck, and Eminem may be on magazine covers but they aren't identified as champions of non-digital, non-hip-hop influenced 'real music'.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Thursday, 4 March 2004 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't understand the defensive reaction in this thread - White Stripes seem pretty conservative to me.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)


In a pop music climate dominated commercially by hip-hop,


I don't think this is even true!
Look at the current Billboard top ten:

1) Norah Jones, Feels Like Home

*** 2) Kanye West, The College Dropout

3) Evanescence, Fallen

*** 4) OutKast, Speakerboxxx/The Love Below

5) Kenny Chesney, When The Sun Goes Down

6) Josh Groban, Closer

*** 7) Eamon, I Don't Want You Back

*** 8) Twista, Kamikaze

9) Sheryl Crow, The Very Best Of Sheryl Crow 2

10) Incubus, A Crow Left Of The Murder...

*** next to those I _think_ are hip-hop (I've not heard of a lot of them, just done a quick web search).

I'd hardly call 4/10ths 'dominating'!

― mei (mei), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

you forgot norah jones.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder what Norah thinks about hip-hop. Has anybody asked her?

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

and Incubus has a guy who stands next a turntable going wikkedywikkedywik

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

and the guy from 13 Stones or whatever raps a bit on the bridge of "Bring Me To Life"

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

she'd obv. like it since she's punker than pink tho maybe not avril.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

From a quick ggole I thought Norah was some kind of Jazz singer?

Does anyone have the overall sales from 2003?
Billboard seem to only want to sell them.

― mei (mei), Thursday, 4 March 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

and Incubus has a guy who stands next a turntable going wikkedywikkedywik
-- Anthony Miccio (anthonymicci...), March 4th, 2004.

He's an integral part of the band!

― mei (mei), Thursday, 4 March 2004 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

and the guy from 13 Stones or whatever raps a bit on the bridge of "Bring Me To Life"
-- Anthony Miccio (anthonymicci...), March 4th, 2004.

Don't know if that's joking or not, but there are just as many obv. rock things - guitars etc.- in a lot of HH.

― mei (mei), Thursday, 4 March 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Kelly Clarkson, Beck, and Eminem may be on magazine covers but they aren't identified as champions of non-digital, non-hip-hop influenced 'real music'.

Okay, then why isn't Amy's piece also about Radiohead and The Strokes, who get the same press deal and are on just as many magazine covers? Why isn't it extended to every other gold-plus selling rock band on the radio? Focusing on The White Stripes seems arbitrary.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Thursday, 4 March 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe because the White Stripes seem to have a fetish for 'roots' music?

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 4 March 2004 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Radiohead is out because of Kid A.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Thursday, 4 March 2004 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

It just seems like the idea to write an essay/have a panel discussion about The White Stripes came before the critical position. "Oh, I know...let's do something about The White Stripes and race issues!"

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Thursday, 4 March 2004 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

she can't write about everything!

― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 4 March 2004 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Jack White, who comes from a city where only white people get famous playing hip-hop, has said hip-hop stopped doing interesting things in 1986. He has this bizarre romantic attachment to a time when music was supposedly about "sweethearts," and has said he thinks rap music harms children. He plays black music that was fashionable 60 fucking years ago. He brings token large black guys onto TV shows with him. How is that NOT about race? How are Radiohead or the Strokes similar? How does it not at least RAISE QUESTIONS THAT MIGHT CONCEIVABLY BE INTERESTING? Fuck you people are stupid.

― alpha motherfucker, Thursday, 4 March 2004 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Or 80 fucking years ago, whatever. Either way, Perpetua's last post is idiotic.

― alpha motherfucker, Thursday, 4 March 2004 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Radiohead and the Strokes are definitely not similar to the White Stripes since they aren't very good.

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 4 March 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Beck's the guy who makes cuh-raaazy goofy hip-hop albums and slow serious albums of balladry that aren't real Beck albums right?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 March 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

So how does somebody doing a presentation about the White Stripes' relationship to race prevent somebody else from doing a presentation about Beck's (or Eminem's, or Moby's, or Kelly Clarkson's, or Autechre's, or the Red Hot Chili Pepper's, or Coldplay's, or Lenny Kravitz's, or Hootie and the Blowfish's, or the Bad Brains') relationship to race? One doesn't exactly negate the other. So where's the contradiction?

― alpha motherfucker, Thursday, 4 March 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Are You Gonna Buy My Race?: Race and Lenny Kravitz's Moment In The Sun

Whites Are All Made Of Sales: Race and Moby's Moment In The Sun

Funky Honkys: Race and the Red Hot Chili Peppers' Moment In The Sun

Will The Racist Slim Shady Please Stand Up?: Race and Emimen's Moment In The Sun

Man, this is fun!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 March 2004 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm still pissed that the White Stripes are influenced by unfashionable black music that should have died along with Robert Johnson

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 4 March 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

The Violent Femmes and Led Zeppelin are white!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 March 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

and they started LONG after Robert Johnson!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 March 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Alpha Motherfucker, I don't think the ideas are irrelevant, I'm just wary of this whole thing because I think that Amy Phillips is a terrible writer, going on everything she's ever had published in the Voice.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Thursday, 4 March 2004 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

The Violent Femmes and Led Zeppelin are white!

wow that's a good summary of the Stripes. No wonder I like them!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 4 March 2004 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

But the music is oh so....how shall I put this? Unfashionable.

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 4 March 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Von Trier's "Zentropa" is in black and white and color. But "Element of a Crime" is in sepia, kind of like the beginning of "Wizard of Oz."

Also: Amy Phillips eats babies! It's true!

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:18 (twenty-two years ago)

How does it not at least RAISE QUESTIONS THAT MIGHT CONCEIVABLY BE INTERESTING?

It is in an interesting topic. But when done by someone who refers to a bodyguard as a slave, I can already tell what the slant and agenda is going to be -- that which favors using inflammatory language over analytical thought.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 5 March 2004 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Most big-name black artists have black bodyguards.

― mei (mei), Saturday, 6 March 2004 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

No they have black slaves, mei. Get with it.

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 6 March 2004 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...
So, how did this one go?

― don carville weiner, Sunday, 18 April 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

The Influence of Gene Autrey on Muddy Waters: Selling Your Soul To the Man with Q&A and buffet after.

― jack cole (jackcole), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread is fascinating for how it features a lot of people getting worked up over the title of a paper.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:22 (twenty-one years ago)

who was that Alpha Motherfucker twat anyway?

― Gear! (Gear!), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:24 (twenty-one years ago)

oh come on, John, we got excited over the ABSTRACT. Give us some credit.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I think you were getting excited in the abstract.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:27 (twenty-one years ago)

who said my name?
http://us.ent2.yimg.com/musicfinder.yahoo.com/images/yahoo/arista/qtip/0202_q_tip.jpg

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

(Yes, that Amy Phillips)

Everyone should follow that link just to see the thread's title. James Bount, I salute you.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:31 (twenty-one years ago)

that blount thread is actually the first ILX thread I ever saw!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

(uh, would it be uncouth of me to mention that, while I wasn't able to attend her piece on the White Stripes, that Amy and I hung out occasionally during the conference and we got along great, and I think she is really a swell and smart person?)

― donut bitch (donut), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Not at all. Indeed, that is most good to hear! :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 19 April 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

A regular Chuck Eddy aren't you DB? (jk haha)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 19 April 2004 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

big pimpin

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 19 April 2004 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread is mostly weird because I know a girl named Amy Phillips. I think she likes the Dave Mathews band though.

― David Allen (David Allen), Monday, 19 April 2004 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I once knew a girl at college named Andrea Phillips. really beautiful, sweet girl, big Rusted Root fan.

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 19 April 2004 04:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I knew a gal named Mackenzie Phillips. She had it rough -- her parents split and I thing she had problems with pills -- but she managed to take things one day at a time.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 19 April 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

One of my best friends in elementary school was named Amy BLACK. She was great at soccer and loved to read. I also knew a John Ph1ll1ps, who had the honor of getting busted with a sheet of acid at the tender age of 13.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 19 April 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Interesting that "White Blood Cells" was #7 on her 2001 P&J ballot:

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/01/critic.php?criticid=3084

― shookout (shookout), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't get what's so puzzling (or interesting) about that.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I was about to say. She can easily be a stone cold fan of the music while still raising questions about presentation and interpretation.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)


Would her silly comments in the most recent Pazz & Jop about the Stripes needing to be around black people other than Mick Collins and that big guy who stood nearby when they were on some tv show, count as just "presentation and interpretation"? Although she is certainly entitled to change her view of the band over time.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Thinking that the Stripes personally might benefit from a slightly broader worldview doesn't change anything either.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 23:29 (twenty-one years ago)

black people = authenticity

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 23:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Douglas Wolk from his lacunae.com blog re the EMP presentation:

Other highlights: Seth Sanders on the relationship between heavy metal, evil, and the demand for judgement in Black Sabbath; Amy Phillips on how exactly the White Stripes have managed to get away with not being questioned about race much; Franklin Bruno on "Is That All There Is?"; Peter Stampfel and Jeannie Scofield doing a lunchtime performance of some of Stampfel's project where he's recording a song apiece from every year of the 20th century. Disappointments: the non-appearance of Jewlia Eisenberg, Carrie Brownstein and Margo Jefferson, all of whose pieces I'd wanted to see.
Posted by Douglas at 05:01 PM | Comments (0)

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)


Did anybody else see Amy's presentation?

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Friday, 23 April 2004 03:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Amy Phillips on how exactly the White Stripes have managed to get away with not being questioned about race much

Phrased that way, her piece sounds very interesting.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

If we could only get Wolk, or Matos or someone to elaborate...

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Steve, I'm sure there's a way you could possibly contact Amy via email if you asked someone at the Voice via email and explain your request, and perhaps she'd be happy to send you her piece.. or not. I'm not speaking on her behalf. But begging someone here to elaborate on it isn't going to help you any further. (Unless Douglas wants to elaborate, but you're starting to come off as a bit pushy, to me, anyway)

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Hang on, so C4rrie Brown$tein was a no-show?

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

she was a no-show. apparently her plumbing blew up.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope you're speaking about her apartment or house.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

thank you for taking the bad joke pressure off of me, Nicole

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Call the doctor! ho ho!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I do my best.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)


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