Why do people who hate music write about music?

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http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/start.asp?P_Article=12426

Rap's last tape

March 2004

Sapped of verbal vitality and ghetto pride, hip hop's profanities are little more than a soundtrack to greed

Nick Crowe


When the poet laureate Andrew Motion penned a birthday rap to Prince William last year, the reaction was a mixture of surprise and embarrassment. Motion's verses were declared unworthy of the genre. They also remained firmly on the printed page. Unlike literary poetry, rapping is an oral discipline which lives or dies by the microphone.





By definition, this wasn't a rap at all. More curious, though, was the incredulity with which Motion's choice of prosody was received. After all, hip hop is a mainstream phenomenon which has dominated the charts and high street fashion for as long as most teenagers have been alive (even farmers in Devon have swapped their overalls for Adidas trainers and puffa jackets). What actually lay behind the reaction to Motion's gesture was a notion of authenticity. Any old Joe can rap, but licence is only granted to residents of the street - to those toting an easy association with criminality and violence.

For a genre that is 25 years old this year, hip hop has little to show for its maturity. While its influence has stretched into the shires and beyond, walk down any megastore hip hop aisle and scowling back at you is a line-up of the same kind of hardmen as a decade ago. Numbers may have burgeoned (there are now believed to be over 100 hip hop millionaires in the world) as has the body count, but the lifestyles, platitudes and contradictions represented by protagonists of the culture have, if anything, grown narrower and more impossible. Repetitive images of material excess and recidivism continue to dominate the commercial rap market, and while production techniques have evolved to become the most sophisticated in pop music, rapping itself - the essence of hip hop culture - has not developed in at least a decade. As the ideas have dried up, celebrities and industry investors have been forced to promote the most sensational aspects of the culture. Even loyal fans are now claiming that hip hop's message to the disenfranchised is one of confusion and self-destruction. For a musical form that once claimed to offer meaning, and even hope, this must spell the end.

Which is a shame, considering hip hop's beginnings. The history of rap is as eclectic as America itself. Its influences range from the tall tales of Chicago blues singers to the sing-song declarations of Mississippi riverboat men; from wild west folk songs to the intoned rhetoric of Martin Luther King and Muhammad Ali; from skipping rope rhymes and gospel to the syncopated rhythms of jazz, the pick 'n' mix culture of creole and even the lewder compositions of Cole Porter. Still regarded as rap's essential ancestor, however, is the toast. Toasting is the African-American folk art of rhythmic narrative, a tradition probably passed down by nomadic African griots who would wander from village to village offering musical renditions of local history and mythology. Their early 20th-century American descendants told rhyming tales of exaggerated heroism, in which the black man, in contrast to his usual lot, won the day.

A well-known toast is about the eponymous hero Shine, reputedly the only black man working aboard the Titanic (in fact, records show that there were no black passengers or crew). Informing a disbelieving captain that the ship had sprung a leak, Shine went back below and began to think/That, umph, this big bad muthafucka is bound to sink./Shine said, it's fish in the ocean, crabs in the sea/But it's one time you good cool white people ain't gone bullshit me. Before the other passengers end up in the drink, Shine swims to New York where, surrounded by whores and flush with money, he lives out his days drunk in a Manhattan bar. Shine's immodesty is heavily ironic, half-mocking of the boastful, entrepreneurial America which excludes him, yet half-yearning for the impossible fantasy (out-talking, out-drinking, out-sexing the doomed white man) in which he is engaged.

The story of rap follows the migration of these attitudes - mockery, self-preservation and pride - from the inner city to the commercial mainstream. By the early 1970s, toasts were finding their way on to records. James Brown stole them wholesale, while Jalal Nuriddin's collective, the Last Poets, stuck theirs into pop songs. Radio DJs devised toast-like routines to segue songs, often rhyming well into the second verse. But it was the Caribbean-style sound systems, plugged illegally into the lampposts of the Bronx, that facilitated the development of what became rap. These tangles of wires and amplifiers invoked spontaneous street gatherings at which DJs and bystanders would rhyme to the beat. It was at the so-called "block parties" of the late 1970s that hip hop's celebrated innovator, DJ Kool Herc, hung out. Formally known as Clive Campbell, the Jamaican-born Herc had one of the most powerful sound systems in the neighbourhood, with a funk and soul record collection to match. The story goes that in a flash of inspiration Herc decided to put copies of the same record on to both turntables. By crossfading between decks he could play the best bit of the record - usually a percussive breakdown - for as long as he liked. In this way the breakbeat was born. And so were the B-boys, or breakdancers, who during this musical peak would spin their best moves.

The accident of scratching occurred when failed attempts to cue up a disc resulted in the squealing crunch of diamond on vinyl. The miracle of needle-dropping - landing the stylus in exactly the right spot - arose in the same way. But the most significant development was the rise of the MC, or "mic controller." Until then, the man with the mic simply jollied the party along, like at a wedding disco. When Grandmaster Flash, arguably the most nimble-fingered of all the Bronx DJs, magnanimously moved his decks to one side, it allowed his posse, the Furious Five, to take centre stage, rapping in formation. The crowds were impressed and these prototype MCs became ghetto stars. Colouring in this local scene were the graffiti artists, who provided a chaotic backdrop to hip hop's most innovative, and least commercial, era.

But soon after, it was time for business. An ex-soul singer called Sylvia Robinson founded the first rap label, Sugar Hill Records, and in 1979 released what is now widely acclaimed as the first ever rap record: "Rapper's Delight," by the Sugar Hill Gang. Although the raps and bass line were pilfered, Robinson's creation was an instant hit. A rush of new labels eager to exploit New York talent quickly followed - Paul Winley Records, Enjoy, Spring, and eventually Tommy Boy and Def Jam - creating a flourishing underground movement.

Its cast was multiethnic, bringing African, Caribbean, European and Latin culture to the mix. One of the landmark productions of the time was Afrika Bambaataa's "Planet Rock" (1982). By stitching Kraftwerk samples together, producer Arthur Baker introduced an electro (and German) sound to the genre, helping it depart from its funky roots. Another was Grandmaster Flash and Melle Mel's "The Message" (1982), which ditched light-hearted party raps for race and politics, and became the first ghetto classic. Following these "old school" days came the explosive delivery of Run-DMC and the Beastie Boys; the provocative content of NWA and 2 Live Crew; the dazzling production aesthetics of Bomb Squad and Dr Dre; the smart business practices of Russell Simmons; the race politics of KRS-One and Public Enemy - all helping to build the multibillion dollar industry of today. Last October, Billboard magazine announced that for the first time in its history all the top ten acts in the Hot 100 were black. And most were rapping.

So at a moment when black music is celebrating its greatest achievement, why does hip hop appear creatively impoverished? As an eclectic musical form, it was always inclined to racial and musical crossover. The video of its first American top ten record, the 1986 Run-DMC/Aerosmith collaboration "Walk This Way," had the two black/white rival groups tearing down an on-stage dividing wall in a symbolic act of desegregation. Similar acts such as Public Enemy and Ice T appealed to thousands of white college students eager to shock their parents, while the jazzy tones of Jungle Brothers and De La Soul attracted more passive audiences. Yet for most of its lifespan, hip hop remained, with all its associated violence, poverty and politics, a subversive sound, frightening off MTV's potential advertisers. In the subsequent process of becoming the ultimate symbol of the mainstream, it has - like all countercultural music - lost its meaning.

For a period it looked like rap would break this depressing rule, achieving mass popularity without blunting its creative edge. Because hip hop was generated out of a cut and paste process - lifting and looping sections of rhythm from obscure vinyl, or sampling street noises and media jingles - it pre-empted the marvels of digital music production, which allow modern producers to layer hundreds of different samples at a click of a mouse. When, in the mid-1990s, this technology became widely available, the marriage with hip hop (between software and genre) seemed made in heaven. Grassroots audiences and pop consumers were momentarily united, as the street joined hands with the market. But it wasn't long before producers such as Timbaland and the Neptunes were feeding couch-bound America bagloads of ear candy. Despite breaking new ground, the faltering ideas of their acts rendered the final mix technically astonishing but ultimately empty.

Rap has a problem with originality. Its habit of salvaging old hit records in the service of the new (for those who can afford copyright clearance) means that it has a limited repertoire of material to plunder. At some theoretical point in this retroactive process, the whole history of rock 'n' roll gets exhausted into pastiche. Unlike rock music - which itself has been on the ropes since the 1990s - rap can't look forward to original compositions. A recent album by New York rapper Nas, for instance, credits samples on nine out of ten tracks. It is mechanical reproduction gone mad.

Rap at its best is capable of amazing effects. To stand in spitting distance of a freestyling MC can be a thrilling experience. Any skilled rapper will rock his whole body as he takes on the character of his subject matter, twisting his features and splaying his fingers as feeling demands. But the key to the performance is vocal delivery. In an essay last year in the Hudson Review, the poet (and head of America's National Endowment for the Arts) Dana Gioia deconstructed rap's prosody, holding up its rhythmic vitality as a contrast to the weakness of free verse. Gioia argued that rap represents a reconnection with fundamental principles of rhythm that literary poets - in their effete self-consciousness - have long since abandoned: "Rap characteristically uses the four-stress, accentual line that has been the most common meter for spoken popular poetry in English from Anglo-Saxon verse... to Rudyard Kipling." Gioia described how the stress meter, freed from the visual scanning of the written word, permits as many syllables per line as the rapper requires (provided the number of stresses remains constant). This is why, with a superimposed beat, MCs can accelerate to the verbal velocity of a livestock auctioneer. And, linking rap to the African-American tradition is its deployment of the impulsive, improvised rhythms of jazz, which impose themselves on either side of the downbeat.

As with meter, so with rhyme: rap briefly reinvigorated our sense of aural pleasure. But Gioia doesn't acknowledge the logical conclusion of his comparison. Just as free verse emerged in literary poetry because the possibilities of rhyme were exhausted, so it is with the rhymes of rap - with the added disadvantage that rap is far more limited in its often crude couplings, exhausting itself after 25 years rather than 2,500. The history of all art tells us that no sooner do we grow accustomed to one form than we begin searching for another. And it is unlikely that rap can extend itself much beyond the rhyming couplet.

The predominace of rap can be attributed to its increasing acceptability and loss of shock value. Like all sensationalism, it is subject to the law of diminishing returns. Expletives like muthafucker (since described as the "Oedipal now"), nigga, bitch and ho (whore) are overused and banal, while gangsterisms like the drive-by shooting are as hackneyed as the spaghetti western quickdraw. Nowadays, parents dismiss such outrages with a tut, if not openly enthusing about the lyrics of Eminem. Such profanity once drew attention to ghetto life, forcing conservatives, policymakers and critics into sociological debate; now hip hop is more likely to suffer admission into the American literary canon.

Underpinning this cultural acceptance is hip hop's aptitude for enterprise. In contrast to rock music's anti-commercial gestures and fear of "selling out," rappers passionately embrace the entrepreneurial spirit. The career of the average hip hop artist now includes boardroom duties for the various subsidiary businesses they own. Hip hop moguls such as Russell Simmons (co-founder of Def Jam records), P Diddy and Master P have developed their own clothing lines, while last year the business artists Nelly and Ice T launched hip hop styled energy drinks (the former running into trouble after crassly naming his tonic "Pimp Juice"). Sneakers, colognes, ringtones, sportswear and entertainment companies have taken pop merchandise out of the venue ticket office and straight to the mall. The result is a booming hip hop economy. Perhaps, in a country where wealth is status, this is America's best chance yet to dismantle the ghetto.

The reality, however, is that most of these businesses depend on the mutating fashions of a capricious mass market. The number of truly successful companies is relatively small - many are owned by major labels like Universal and BMG - and the wealth gap between the super-rich and those on whom their influence is exercised has never been so gaping. Such material excess, combined with showmanship and conceit, is for large sections of the community a poisonous admixture, and has led merely to attention-seeking vulgarity. Hip hop has never been short on irony, yet an unbounded display of wealth, an impossible dream of gold, diamonds, thrones, canes, whores and mansions, is now permanently woven into the hip hop aesthetic. For those sick of wealth envy, this is good reason to turn off the radio.

Compared to its American counterpart, British hip hop is a cottage industry. Most acts struggle to sell more than 3,000 units, and major label signings are rare. Back in the 1980s, the story was different. Monie Love, the Cookie Crew and Derek B and other British acts were popular enough even to stand a chance in America. But the boom in dance music dashed all hopes that Britain would become a hip hop nation - 1989's so-called "second summer of love" lured thousands of potential fans away from rap towards the self-abandonment of acid house. During the course of the 1990s, inward-looking innovators in Britain continued pillaging US hip hop imports for their own styles, creating ragga and techno hybrids like jungle and drum & bass. The latest stage in this development is UK garage, which now dominates the country's urban music - hip hop being just one element in its hard mix of R&B, reggae and techno. There are dedicated hip hop purists who, tucked deep inside the housing estates of inner-city England (rap has failed to emerge from Wales or Scotland), are still making records. Supported by a network of independent labels, these self-producing rappers court a dwindling audience. British hip hop DJs such as Radio 1's Tim Westwood and 1Xtra's Rodney P & Skitz prefer corporate-backed American stars.

To make matters worse, the British scene is divided by colour: the white guys (Taskforce, Braintax, Wolftown Committee) and the black (57th Dynasty, Roots Manuva, Ty, Lewis Parker). Additionally, both camps suffer from the embarrassing problem of accent. Regional variations in pronunciation stand out, and for audiences familiar with the tones of the Bronx or Compton, a muthafucking Brummee can, like the poet laureate, seem hopelessly inappropriate. For years, British rap acts have tried to overcome the problem. In the 1980s, London Posse's MC Roddie Rok (now Rodney P of the BBC's black music station 1Xtra) dropped his American accent after supporting Big Audio Dynamite at a gig in New York. Confused New York rappers convinced him that being himself was the only way forward, and so from that day on he rapped out his yardie slang in broad Lambeth cockney. (French rappers, too, have occasionally succeeded, famously MC Solaar with "Bouge De Là .") Yet impersonators such as Derek B, who unscrupulously mimicked an American accent in his 1986 hit Rock the Beat, have always reaped the most rewards. Almost all the hip hop bought in this country is of US origin.

But the deleterious effects of hip hop culture are felt on both sides of the Atlantic: the arguments over its racism, misogyny, homophobia, political nihilism and problem with gun culture are well known. On the one hand are the defenders - the liberal press and the hip hop community itself, who claim that rap is just a fiction, and that a line from "Fuck Tha Police" has no more chance of turning young black kids into cop killers than an episode of ER will lead them into medical school. They suggest, too, that it is a form of reportage, reality music from the American slums and trailer parks. In this way artists such as Eminem have, through a confessional style of rap, relayed back to the people who matter tales of white trash culture and the junk diet upon which it subsists.

On the other hand we have the censors and traducers. There are the moralising ladies of US politics, Tipper Gore and Lynne Cheney, whose efforts to silence the profanity led to the ubiquitous Parental Advisory warning - the "Tipper sticker." There is the politician and frequent litigant C Delores Tucker, who persuaded Time Warner to drop its interests in Death Row Records; and there is Bill O'Reilly, the Fox News commentator, whose outrage is disseminated through the most watched cable news show in America. But perhaps the wittiest of the hip hop haters is black jazz critic Stanley Crouch, who once described rappers as "monkey-moving, gold-chain wearing, illiteracy-spouting, penis-pulling, sullen, combative buffoons." This confusing alliance of conservatives, well-meaning busybodies and insider critics is united by the conviction that rap music destroys lives.

That the gangster urge has become the most popular expression of discontent among black communities is unquestionable. Its endless appetite for self-gratification, its self-destructive and inward nature contribute nothing to the community. High-profile feuds, like that between rival rappers Tupac Shakur and the Notorious BIG, which resulted in the death of both, are played out in countless copycat disputes. Reports of neglected teenagers living out the gangster dream are frequent. For many boys, the intended consequences of rap's playful fantasies are cruelly reversed - resulting in disempowerment rather than opportunity. While life isn't easy for many young black people, you have to ask if rap music and the lifestyle it preaches are the best expression of protest they have. For community leaders and inner-city residents, the convoluted, self-referential politics of race and identity now mix with debates about role models and stereotypes.

While many cite hip hop as an alternative, semi-political movement seeking to address such problems, it is difficult to find any coherent manifesto or hard reasoning. Hip hop's different factions are often at cross purposes, with artists espousing contradictory values. Penitent icons like Nelly hold a gun in one hand and a donation to a children's literacy programme in the other. In the old school days, Afrika Bambaataa and other icons were more constructive, teaching emancipation from the ghetto through knowledge and non-violence, but contemporary rap artists - the ones that are still alive - have only the distance between them and the local jail as their moral ground.

The best-known hip hop slogan - "keep it real" - appears on the surface to be a call for solidarity. Scratch a little deeper and the words "don't change" emerge. By "keepin' it real," prescribed tribal codes are maintained. In the early days of rap, when to the delight of partygoers Grandmaster Flash's wheels of steel were at full tilt, innovation in music, dress and language were the order of the day. The terms "hip hop" and "rap" had barely been coined, and many people were more inclined to creative pursuits than perpetuating a cultish identity. "Keeping it real" hinders change, both social and musical, and contributes to hip hop's current catatonic state.

The final chapter in the story of hip hop is Eminem. Since his debut in 1995, the white rapper has come to dominate American music culture. His most recent album, The Eminem Show, sold 7.4m copies, making it the bestselling album of 2002. Growing up in a black neighbourhood in Detroit, Eminem suffered all the damaging events of a ghetto upbringing, including parental separation, financial hardship and drug abuse. Although technically white trailer trash, he naturally took on all the characteristics of his black neighbours, emerging as a white negro (accusations of fakery would beset him in his early days of fame). Eminem perfected the art of rapping, gaining his credentials through regular battles at local freestyling competitions. Recognising his lyrical gift, Dr Dre, the celebrated producer and one-time member of NWA, took him on as a protégé. And after one false start, Eminem's first major release, The Real Slim Shady LP, pushed him into the hip hop superleague. As an explicit, trailer park comedy of intoxication, pornography and self-harm, its themes resonated with white American and British teenagers suffering from similar personality disorders. Eminem's skill is in simultaneously treating his audience as co-conspirators and targets, and his three albums have unearthed a white middle America as problematic as the ghetto and as wilfully destructive as any Schwarzenegger movie.

Eminem's ability to pull all aspects of his life into his work - infamy and mental dysfunction being favourites - makes him both a diarist and a commentator, and proof that rap can still be inventive. But only by breaking rules. Consequently, Eminem must confront a growing number of enemies in the hip hop industry itself. Rap magazine the Source, which describes itself as "the magazine of hip hop culture and politics," is voicing critics' concern that Eminem might be "leading hip hop down a dangerous path for the culture, similar to the impact of Elvis on the death of African-American contributions... in rock'n'roll." A recent issue features a "special report on the state of emergency in hip hop." Eminem has extended the subject matter, and racial boundaries, of hip hop. But the comparison with Elvis may be apt. After Eminem, there is no going back. How much can rap and its audience change before the music becomes something fundamentally different? And change is the only option left for a form once built on innovation, but now characterised by self-limiting dogma and paucity of ideas.

Nick Crowe was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad

djdee2005, Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Please tell me that last line was your personal touch.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick Crowe was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post, but, really, I could copy and paste that all day)

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:18 (twenty-one years ago)

can someone provide the clif's notes please.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:18 (twenty-one years ago)

or tell me what it sez in a sentence. it isn't just: Rap is bad. is it?

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Why do people who played in the assiest of ass-end of ass bands set themselves up like this?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

A very long joke but what a punchline.

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's play "count the sentences of submerged racism".

John Fortune, Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

relayed back to the people who matter tales of white trash culture and the junk diet upon which it subsists.

Um....okay, i could be here all day. i don't know if it's worth it.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:22 (twenty-one years ago)

In summary:

"Nick Crowe was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad"

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Its like every cliche about rap put all together!

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

...its influence has stretched into the shires...

DJ Frodawg & MC Gam G

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Why do I get the feeling that this article was the result of an informal first-time introduction to rap (via The Grey Album) and a tireless and shameless squad of embarrassed anonymous researchers?

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't think there is one sentence you couldn't pick apart. well, maybe one.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

But yeah. GAY DAD. At least Stanley Crouch never drummed for GAY DAD.

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:29 (twenty-one years ago)

DJ Frodawg & MC Gam G ft. M-Lo and Pip of Da Otha Hobbitz "One Ring Mufuckaz"

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:29 (twenty-one years ago)

This really just reads like a college thesis on rap, I can barely discern any point of view.

Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Between Nate and Nick I am extremely entertained.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Glad to see he's up on current production techniques ("Its habit of salvaging old hit records in the service of the new [...] means that it has a limited repertoire of material to plunder.")

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Last
October, Billboard magazine announced that for the first time in its history all the top ten acts in the Hot 100 were black. And most
were rapping.


RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:33 (twenty-one years ago)

'these "rappers" will "sample" old "tracks", and then they will "freestyle". Often, "breakdancers" accompany their rappings.'

Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:33 (twenty-one years ago)

In contrast to rock music's anti-commercial gestures and fear of "selling out," rappers passionately embrace the entrepreneurial spirit.

KISS AND THE ROLLING STONES AND THE BEATLES AND LED ZEPPELIN TO THREAD

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Glad to see he's up on current production techniques ("Its habit of salvaging old hit records in the service of the new [...] means that it has a limited repertoire of material to plunder.")

The ideal obviously being an unlimited repertoire of MATERIAL TO PLUNDER.

dleone (dleone), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

To make matters worse, the British scene is divided by colour: the white guys (Taskforce, Braintax, Wolftown Committee) and the black (57th Dynasty, Roots Manuva, Ty, Lewis Parker).

Here's a picture of Wolftown Committee:

http://www.oracabessa.com/wolftown/committee-photo.jpg

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Nate that was in the paragraph STRAIGHT AFTER he was talking about how new software and programming techniques offered a way out of rap's 'creative doldrums' (but all those nasty rappers spoiled things).

I like how he casually dismisses rock too'since the 90s' - before or after THE AMAZING CAREER OF GAY DAD i wonder?

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)


RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!

*NER NER NER...*

*chugga chugga chugga*

http://www.quipo.it/atosi/numero3/music/steve.gif

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The final chapter in the story of hip hop is Eminem.

This sentence makes me want to drown this assclown in a swimming pool full of acid jello.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the line about how evil Timbaland and the evil Neptunes are feeding American couch potatoes "EAR CANDY"! Oh no! Now they'll be too full to eat their ear broccoli

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Those of us who were in the UK in 1999 already wanted to do that, Nick.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

THE AMAZING CAREER OF GAY DAD

I have an idea for a strip for your brother to work on.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

ha ha ear broccoli i kiss you

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

hip-hop ear broccoli = common

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Works in both senses of word!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps Eminem could sample "Joy" on his next album?

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

For a genre that is 25 years old this year, hip hop has little to show for its maturity


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Scott, dude, don't put yourself through this. Unless you've stretched adequately and are laughing yourself silly.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I suppose it's good in a way that he wrote this because the article has probably given him food money and he won't have to stand next to freeway offramps with a cardboard sign reading "JOB LOST TO 808, PLEASE HELP"

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:41 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Dinosaur-lyrics-Gay-Dad/13017DB290EAA95A48256D29002A3FA4

Surely some mistake.

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

A recent album by New York rapper Nas, for instance, credits samples on nine out of ten tracks. It is mechanical reproduction gone mad.

djdee2005, Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Common 1994 = ear broccoli with melted cheese and pine nuts
Common 2003 = boil-in-a-bag ear broccoli that's been left sitting in a cold pot 90 minutes

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I just hate when people write shit like this.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:43 (twenty-one years ago)

From the grave of six million dead, Walter Benjamin rises to say, "Fucking ASSCLOWN" and poops on Crowe's head.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:43 (twenty-one years ago)

weird, i looked at that lyric page and Gay Dad has a song about being chased by a black ghost. this dude is paranoid.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread is sublime.

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/LoginPage.asp?P_Article=11489

Oh so tantalising!

I wonder if Momus has a login we could use.

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Everyone felt it coming, the reward of regular rehearsals, a movement repeated over and over, refined until, almost inaudibly, voices came streaming in between guitars, like celestial bodies sweeping across a sonic ionosphere.

Why couldn't he have just typed "our music was rock-as-jism" and been done with it?

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:53 (twenty-one years ago)

God, how we miss them...

http://www.andrewkeith.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GayDad/GayDadGroup_L.jpg

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the piece brings up a lot of good points.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

No, really, it's quite astute, in that it ....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!

Oh, there I go again. Sorry about that (hee hee ...). I tried to keep a straight face, but to no avail. That essay is just so damn wrong.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

That photo is like Duran Duran without Max Factor. Oh, and talent.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

By "keepin' it real," prescribed tribal codes are maintained.


Thanks for that, you jane goodall-looking motherfucker.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:00 (twenty-one years ago)

"Tribal codes" = submerged racism count 1

djdee2005, Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

That photo is like Duran Duran without Max Factor.

Dude, that is seriously seriously seriously insulting to Duran Duran. They all look like they haven't caught up with the rest of humanity in the evolution process.

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

'If there's one way to put down this crime/It's to lash them with the old-time cat-o'-nine'
-Lord Invader

SexyDancer, Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Also note the postgrad-chuckle headline, which is just another way of saying "rap is short for Krapp"

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

>"Tribal codes" = submerged racism count 1

Assuming the word 'tribal' is automatically crypto-racist = submerged racism count 1

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

"Its habit of salvaging old hit records in the service of the new [...] means that it has a limited repertoire of material to plunder.

It could've been worse. Imagine him trying to tackle dancehall. Or, um, jazz. Or the blues. Or...

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Making an observation about a stereotype is submerged racism?

xpost

djdee2005, Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

They all look like they haven't caught up with the rest of humanity in the evolution process.

True, I only just properly 'appreciated' monkey-boy in the back's looks there.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:28 (twenty-one years ago)

so why didn't Crowe write an article like this about rock ten years ago?

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

My peeps refuse to take the blame for Gay Dad sucking like a Hoover

Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

the criticisms of the genre that Crowe makes are mostly valid (if perhaps not quite best defined) but they mostly apply to ALL genres, mostly - and that's irrespective of whatever social issues underpin hip-hop (which kept it interesting for years and still do to a fair extent)

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Shorter Nick Crowe: I wish living black people were more like dead black people.

Sym (shmuel), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

He may like Lenny Kravitz.

Who, if I have anything to say about it, will be dead soon as well...mwahahahaha.

djdee2005, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 00:03 (twenty-one years ago)

You'll have to get through Nicole Kidman first

Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

"Any skilled rapper will rock his whole body as he takes on the character of his subject matter, twisting his features and splaying his fingers as feeling demands."

= they've all got natural rhythm, y'know.

noodle vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick Crowe has drummed on a song that was used in a car advert; what have you done with your life, eh?

Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

"Any skilled rapper will rock his whole body as he takes on the character of his subject matter" -> but will he have himself nekkid by the end of his song?

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

gay dad had some great songs

the surface noise (electricsound), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

in their cd rack

stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Gay Dad was had.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread staved off suicide for another day

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

You need to listen to "Joy" Jess! It's an upbeat song with a positive message!

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I sent an e-mail to The Prospect to express my displeasure(shhhh, don't tell them it was me):

Dear Sir And/Or Madam, Please be advised that our organisation, The British Rap Council, is preparing to protest your
magazine's headquarters at 2 Bloomsbury Place for the publication of an article entitled, "Rap's Last Tape". We feel that we
have no alternative as all our previous attempts to reach your publishers have fallen on deaf ears. We, as London's foremost
outsource facility for the education and elucidation of rap music's power to heal the kingdom's youth, feel that the scurrilous
and blatantly racist article that you have printed must not go unanswered. We have been informed that the author of said
article is a homosexual father and this pains us all the more, as someone who knows the sting of inequality should be the last
to point fingers at others who are less fortunate. Be that as it may, we will see you in the streets. We feel it is our duty to
fight ignorance with the strength of numbers that we possess. This is in no way a threat. But a promise to exercise our right
as citizens to stand up for those who have been left behind. Saturday it is. And i am respectfully, Audi.


scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"Rap's Last Tape"

Oh jesus, I just got the damn reference. Can Beckett come back from the grave as well?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

Nick Crowe, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:12 (twenty-one years ago)

mechanical reproduction gone mad

i love the idea of nas and his various producers trying to pin down those wild reel-to-reels! those buckwild tape edits! coming to your TV soon: when mechanical recording devices go bad!

paulhw (paulhw), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

And then Nas dresses up as a robot butler and is attacked by a giant pudding

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:26 (twenty-one years ago)

and foils a plot to clone John Lennon by stealing his nose

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.musicman.com/mp/sleeper.gif

He can borrow Missy's Supa Dupa Fly suit

Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The birth of the phrase "ear broccoli" almost makes it all worthwhile. Almost.

Flyboy (Flyboy), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Holy shitters what a fucking splendid thread! Thanks for entertainining me, all of you, I've got tears of laughter streaming down my face...

I think we can all agree that this week's t-shirt slogan of cohice has to be "I was the drummer in the rock band Gay Dad", ne?

CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

i love how two of the members of Wolftown Committee have light shining from their crotches. it's like they're giving birth to creation.

Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Thursday, 11 March 2004 22:33 (twenty-one years ago)

to be fair to Crowe it does kinda look those three white guys in that pic just happened to be bowlin' past during the photoshoot...

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 11 March 2004 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

It really does say "Nick Crowe was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad" at the end!

I got my (gay enough) dad a year's subscription to Prospect once. I am sorry it ran out and deprived him of this chance to get a handle on rap music.

'Britain's intelligent conversation' - oh dear.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 11 March 2004 23:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe I'm way off base, but reading his patronizing, fetishized list of rapping's oral roots, I couldn't help but wonder if when he said "the 'pick'n'mix culture of creole," he meant to say "pickaninny."

philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Friday, 12 March 2004 05:42 (twenty-one years ago)

And I'm sorry, but I just read a little bit closer than I'd have liked. Just a teenybit homoerotic here?

"Rap at its best is capable of amazing effects. To stand in spitting distance of a freestyling MC can be a thrilling experience. Any skilled rapper will rock his whole body as he takes on the character of his subject matter, twisting his features and splaying his fingers as feeling demands."

"Spitting distance"? "Splaying his fingers as feeling demands"? I mean, swap "rapper" and "MC" for, I dunno, "B&D Master," and that could be a passage from dirtywhore.blogspot.com, you know?

philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Friday, 12 March 2004 05:49 (twenty-one years ago)

"Nick Crowe was the one guy who kept sending you strange e-mails."

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 March 2004 05:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Although technically white trailer trash, he naturally took on all the characteristics of his black neighbours, emerging as a white negro


"technically white trailer trash"
"characteristics of his black neighbors"
"negro"

amazing really.

djdee2005, Friday, 12 March 2004 07:11 (twenty-one years ago)

High-profile feuds, like that between rival rappers Tupac Shakur and the Notorious BIG, which resulted in the death of both, are played out in countless copycat disputes.

Countless copycat disputes. "this time I get to play biggie!"

djdee2005, Friday, 12 March 2004 07:14 (twenty-one years ago)

As far as I can tell, the bit about UK hip hop dividing along racial lines is just made up. What he has is a (wrong, as DP points out) list of a few white acts and another list of a few black acts, not two separate camps. The world seems to have enough reasons to hate on UKHH, it doesn't need made-up racial ones.

Of course, NC may follow this stuff more closely than I do, but I'd be surprised.

Tim (Tim), Friday, 12 March 2004 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps the black members of Wolftown Committee have emerged as white negroes?

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 12 March 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...
Still the thread of the year so far, I think.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 30 April 2004 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)

three months pass...
seconded

stevie (stevie), Thursday, 5 August 2004 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

two months pass...
My stated belief in the April 30th post remains.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 10 October 2004 16:03 (twenty years ago)

he's had a bash at the jazz scene now.

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/LoginPage.asp?P_Article=12868

anyone got a subscription, so they can share?

Jazz forecast

October 2004

Gwyneth Herbert is the latest in a popular wave of jazz vocalists doomed to plunder the old kitbag of song

Nick Crowe


As the age of popular music repetitively plays itself out, songwriters are forced into spirals of pastiche, dipping into the back catalogue to face ever-diminishing variations on the same old themes. Even from the once programmatically experimental jazz world, a new group of singer-songwriters has emerged - Jamie Cullum, Amy Winehouse and Gwyneth Herbert among them - who, subsumed by this regurgitative culture, are sacrificing themselves to cover versions. Having grown up surrounded by extensive . . .

yes, it does say programmatically experimental in the article

Tannenbaum Schmidt (Nik), Sunday, 10 October 2004 16:44 (twenty years ago)

Oh my lord. Someone PLEASE get the full text for us.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 10 October 2004 16:55 (twenty years ago)

I YAM SUBSUUUMED IN THIS REGUUUUHHHHGITATIVE CULCHA!

Don, Sunday, 10 October 2004 17:03 (twenty years ago)

Nick Crowe was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

Is that the obituary or just the death announcement?

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 17:07 (twenty years ago)

Elsewhere in the pages of Prospect, though, there are some quite sensible thoughts. Here's Richard Dawkins on race:

'We are curiously eager to embrace racial classification, even when talking about individuals whose mixed parentage seems to make a nonsense of it, and even where it is irrelevant to anything that matters.'

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 17:12 (twenty years ago)

I think actually this thread bears out Dawkins' point quite well. A lot of the pleasure of this thread comes from the possibility it offers for guilt-free enjoyment of racial stereotypes. Crowe is stupid enough to advance some racial stereotypes in his article. Then some people isolate these stereotypes, elaborate them, exaggerate them, and roll on the floor laughing. I think the moment we stop laughing, though, comes with this telling exchange:

"Tribal codes" = submerged racism count 1

-- djdee2005 (leis...), March 9th, 2004.

>"Tribal codes" = submerged racism count 1

Assuming the word 'tribal' is automatically crypto-racist = submerged racism count 1

-- Phil Freeman (newyorkisno...), March 9th, 2004.

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 17:42 (twenty years ago)

How does this thread flip March/October (like this)?

Don, Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago)

I still don't follow that logic. I identified coded language that suggested submerged racism and he said that it was racist of me to suggest that.

How am I "enjoying" racial stereotypes?! That doesn't make any sense at all.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:08 (twenty years ago)

it's copied text

ken taylrr (ken taylrr), Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago)

what?

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:11 (twenty years ago)

Momus you need to break that down for me bcuz my simple brain apparently can't handle it.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:13 (twenty years ago)

Also that Dawkins essay doesn't really say anything new.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:38 (twenty years ago)

with regards to what we're talking about here, that is.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:41 (twenty years ago)

I think many people on this thread might have characterised the thread as 'Crowe is being a racist and we're not racists, so we're making fun of Crowe's racism'. But there's an alternative reading, which is that Crowe resembles everybody on this thread much more than he differs from them. He's also thinking of himself as a non-racist, but betraying racism 'between the lines'. If you think you don't resemble Crowe in any way, look at this exchange:

Shorter Nick Crowe: I wish living black people were more like dead black people.

-- Sym (shmuelm4...), March 9th, 2004.

He may like Lenny Kravitz.

Who, if I have anything to say about it, will be dead soon as well...mwahahahaha.

-- djdee2005 (qle...), March 10th, 2004.

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 18:53 (twenty years ago)

I'd also say there's a kind of hysteria in your reading of this sentence:

Although technically white trailer trash, he naturally took on all the characteristics of his black neighbours, emerging as a white negro

"technically white trailer trash"
"characteristics of his black neighbors"
"negro"

amazing really.

-- djdee2005 (els...), March 12th, 2004.

The fact that you make this sound so sinister suggests that any kind of racial terminology is deeply embarrassing to you. So how do hip hop records themselves sound to you?

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:12 (twenty years ago)

I think many people on this thread might have characterised the thread as 'Crowe is being a racist and we're not racists, so we're making fun of Crowe's racism'

No, i just like to poke fun at his poor man's South Bank show, under-researched, misconceived notions of hiphop.

this still gets me: (rap has failed to emerge from Wales or Scotland),, 'cos he couldn't find anything in the 10hours of research he did...

Tannenbaum Schmidt (Nik), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago)

Obviously since we are the ones critiquing his writing we're not putting ourselves in the spotlight to be evaluated for our racial predjudices. I doubt there's a person in this thread (or in the world, more likely) who doesn't harbor some form of racial predjudice, myself included.

That doesn't mean we can't critique it when we see it. And since he's the one who wrote the ridiculous piece, it means we can call him on it.

Would you prefer we let the submerged racism slide because of our own imperfections?

And my dislike of lenny kravitz doesn't have anything to do with him taking the roll of how I think living black people "should" act, it has more to do w/ me not liking his music (similarly, that douchebag from Creed should die too). And my assumption that he likes Lenny Kravitz is based on my assumptions about Crowe's "Sonic Gentrification."

But no, I don't think calling him on racism exempts me from similar charges if I say something racist. I don't see any submerged racism in suggesting that his use of "Tribal" was submerged racism though. Perhaps you can point out to me how it is.

The fact that you make this sound so sinister suggests that any kind of racial terminology is deeply embarrassing to you. So how do hip hop records themselves sound to you?

deeply embarrasing? More like humorously misguided. I was actually more confused by his reductive view of race in regards to hip-hop than any sort of effort to suppress him or something...

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:17 (twenty years ago)

I think anyone who does that multisyllabic melisma thing on a slick urban R&B record is drearier than just about all the singers mentioned here. The more syllables and notes you pack into the word 'I' or the word 'love', the more dismally soulless you actually are.
-- Momus (nic...), October 10th, 2004. (later)

Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:18 (twenty years ago)

I doubt there's a person in this thread (or in the world, more likely) who doesn't harbor some form of racial predjudice, myself included.

Well, thanks, that's really my point too. What disturbed me in this thread was just the idea that 'he's doing it and we aren't'. When in fact there was a certain delight in making Nick 'Jim Crow' Crowe's stereotypes even more lurid and gollywog ghoulish than they already were.

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:22 (twenty years ago)

I think it would be a sad world where you couldn't criticize singers for using melisma for fear of being thought racist. My melisma-hate is all about the amateur / professional thing rather than the black / white thing. I think professionalism, proficiency, virtuosity banishes soul. In this sense I have some sympathy for Crowe when he says 'In the subsequent process of becoming the ultimate symbol of the mainstream, [hip hop] has - like all countercultural music - lost its meaning.' What I find most offensive in his article is the statement that hip hop is dead. I don't see any sign of that at all.

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:26 (twenty years ago)

Melisma is used as a substitute for all kinds of things, a modern shorthand signifier for feeling - but since I believe what we hear in records is all signifiers of feeling, not the feelings themselves, that seems harmless. I was listening to Little Willie John on Friday, and he uses loads of it, and is as virtuoso a singer as R&B ever had, but no one would accuse him of being short of real soul or whatever. Aaron Neville is another favourite of mine who does it loads.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:33 (twenty years ago)

I don't think it's racist, however I don't think it's your place to say what is and isn't "soul".

Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 10 October 2004 19:35 (twenty years ago)

Ah, is that my cue? Okay, I'll say it again, because I love quoting this:

'In the end, soul itself is the longing of the soul-less for redemption' Theodor Adorno

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 20:02 (twenty years ago)

Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of virtuosity myself, far from it, but there are not many people who would criticise R&B singers for it.

Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 10 October 2004 20:10 (twenty years ago)

I'm no fan of pedophilia, but there are not many people who would want to see a black artist like R. Kelly sent to jail just because he dabbled in it (while singing melisma and videoing himself). After all, he's black!

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 October 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago)

I already said I wasn't accusing you of racism.

Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 10 October 2004 20:43 (twenty years ago)

i idea that something "loses meaning" (as opposed to "changes meaning" or "de-emphasises certain kinds of meaning" or "stops being meaningful in the way i think music should - through lyrical commitment to political aims and a musical aesthetic that's outwardly and intentionally difficult") is kinda wrong, i think.

m. (mitchlnw), Sunday, 10 October 2004 21:05 (twenty years ago)

"the idea", that should've read.

m. (mitchlnw), Sunday, 10 October 2004 21:12 (twenty years ago)

And the thread is completely ruined.

My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Sunday, 10 October 2004 22:13 (twenty years ago)

Yeah way to go momus ;)

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 22:35 (twenty years ago)

Momus was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 10 October 2004 22:35 (twenty years ago)

Wasn't the Gear roommate thread from this year too? That could be another thread-of-the-year candidate.

Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Sunday, 10 October 2004 23:25 (twenty years ago)

Ah, but that was ILE, so this one is the ILM winner...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 10 October 2004 23:28 (twenty years ago)

There you go then

Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Sunday, 10 October 2004 23:39 (twenty years ago)

Well over a hundred posts and no mention of Tanya Headon? And this is a freakytrigger board!

Sasha (sgh), Monday, 11 October 2004 03:22 (twenty years ago)

It's nu-ILM, dude. Nobody even knows what Freakytrigger is.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 11 October 2004 03:24 (twenty years ago)

As for me ruining the thread, there was an inevitable internal logic built into the dynamic of this thread from the start, which was that once the 'submerged racism' in the comments about Crowe's article outweighed the 'submerged racism' in the article itself, the thread became extremely unstable and was bound to implode. I merely delivered the coup de grace.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 11 October 2004 05:25 (twenty years ago)

I still have no idea at all what you're talking about.

My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Monday, 11 October 2004 05:39 (twenty years ago)

And please don't take that as an invitation to explain further.

My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Monday, 11 October 2004 05:39 (twenty years ago)

I don't agree that calling out racism = racism.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 11 October 2004 06:20 (twenty years ago)

nor that there was submerged racism w/in our posts in particular.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 11 October 2004 06:22 (twenty years ago)

That seems to contradict what you said above about there being racism in everything: 'I doubt there's a person in this thread (or in the world, more likely) who doesn't harbor some form of racial predjudice, myself included.'

If I see sex in everything -- let's say I'm some sort of crusading Mary Whitehouse figure, but I begin to take it way too far -- I'm actually very close to being a 'sex maniac', aren't I? At the very least, I'm making sex a more, not a less, important part of the way humans relate to one another. Dawkins is right: we don't get beyond race because we don't want to.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 11 October 2004 08:17 (twenty years ago)

If you ask me, the real problem is those fucking heeb sonsofbitches.
Am I right?

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 11 October 2004 08:20 (twenty years ago)

Cuz nothing's dirtier than a filthy filthy JEW.

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 11 October 2004 08:21 (twenty years ago)

Right?

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 11 October 2004 08:24 (twenty years ago)

Urf. This, I think, may be a sign that this little red sea pedestrian needs to lay his hook nose down on the pillow, tuck his horns under his nightcap and go sleepyby to the land of nod to dream of zionistic dominion and piles of sweet sweet money.

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 11 October 2004 08:26 (twenty years ago)

That seems to contradict what you said above about there being racism in everything: 'I doubt there's a person in this thread (or in the world, more likely) who doesn't harbor some form of racial predjudice, myself included.'

It doesn't contradict it at all! We're all racist in some way blah blah blah but what on earth does that have to do with pointing out that this guy said some stuff that is questionable? Are you arguing that we should never talk about racism? Cuz that's bullshit.

And your second paragraph doesn't even make sense.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 11 October 2004 14:38 (twenty years ago)

Momus is trying to pull the same switcheroo on racism that Foucault did on sex, only it doesn't really work. Foucault exposed the way in which people who repressed sexual discourse were part of the same process as those who proliferated it, and vice versa (both constructing and legislating sex via discourse), but this binary-upset only really has resonance because Foucault contended that there was no such thing as "real" sex or authentic sexual identity, *only* sexual discourse - hence those who sought to remove repression and discover their true sexual identity were chasing moonbeams or, rather, merely building upon pre-existing layers and layers of sexual discourse.

While the concept of "race" is a discursive concept masquerading as a fundamental category of humanity, the concept of "racism" is not. To say that we all share a submerged level of racism is to *acknowledge* that we are all involved in a race-based discourse, that we cannot think outside of this discourse. This invites a more radical critique of the concept of "race" itself; Foucault tended to be approving of political movements that didn't construct identities around discursive fictions (eg. the black or gay civil rights movements) but actively sought to question those fictions (eg. the feminist movement). It would seem to me that the article that this thread is about shied away from this prospect, seeking rather to construct good and bad models of african-american essentialism.

But Momus's suggestion that in the face of these problems we should simply seek to "move beyond" race or racism is a misreading of the analogy he raises; it's the equivalent of those conservatives who read Discipline & Punish or History of Sexuality and used them to advocate a diminution of civil rights for criminals or sexual minorities.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 00:59 (twenty years ago)

Tim Finney, I kiss you.

Flyboy (Flyboy), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:12 (twenty years ago)

It's a wonderful post, it is.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 13:13 (twenty years ago)

clarity!

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 13:39 (twenty years ago)

Tim Finney, I toast your post! So good that, before I saw yr. name, I thought it was Frank (my essentialism).

Don, Tuesday, 12 October 2004 15:43 (twenty years ago)

three months pass...
So yeah, ILM 2004 thread of the year, with everything from ear broccoli to a Tim Finney refutation of Momus so sublime and perfect that the latter didn't respond.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 16 January 2005 20:31 (twenty years ago)

woohoo!

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 17 January 2005 04:35 (twenty years ago)

a Tim Finney refutation of Momus so sublime and perfect

Shome mishtake shurely.

Momus said:

If I see sex in everything -- let's say I'm some sort of crusading Mary Whitehouse figure, but I begin to take it way too far -- I'm actually very close to being a 'sex maniac', aren't I?

To which TF replied:

Momus is trying to pull the same switcheroo on racism that Foucault did on sex

The rest of TF's argument is based on the false premise that Momus's argument follows the same form as Foucault's; and that to demonstrate that Foucault's argument can't be applied in this way demonstrate that Momus is wrong. But it is quite possible to think that Momus is right without needing to pass this ludicrously artificial test.

Most of what TF's argument is right only if you think Foucault is right (he uses Foucault in a circular way, to demonstrate that his arguments about sex can't be applied to racism.) But it is perfectly intellectually coherent to believe that there is such a thing as human nature and that it includes tendencies that are likely to manifest themselves as racism. In fact it's what most people believe, academic philosophers included. Foucault would disagree but that doesn't make it wrong. Quite apart from the outrageous non-sequitur I've already mentioned, a sublime and perfect argument surely needs to take a more persuasive form than "Foucault sez".

frankiemachine, Monday, 17 January 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

toasting is african? its not jamaican? this piece is full of shit. this isnt even about hating music, this is about not knowing fuck all about the music in question.

ppp, Monday, 17 January 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...
foucault, n. A howler, an insane mistake. "I'm afraid I've committed an egregious foucault."

pscott (elwisty), Friday, 3 February 2006 05:57 (nineteen years ago)

Situation normal, all foucault

Edward III (edward iii), Friday, 3 February 2006 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

one month passes...
It's 2006, and Nick Crowe was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 2 April 2006 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

(After skimming it, I have to say: don't get your hopes up.)

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 2 April 2006 19:11 (nineteen years ago)

Oooh, wait a minute. Second to last paragraph: "caché" should actually be "cachet." Also:

In the excitement, some African groups were even labelled "jazz," though they had never played a lounge bar in their lives.

I'm not sure what he's getting at here. He seems to be implying that contemporary African music was called "jazz" by over-excited Americans eager to find a connection between the two worlds, but musicians all over the continent were calling themselves "jazz" or using "jazz" in band names at least since the 1930's.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 2 April 2006 19:36 (nineteen years ago)

Zach de la Rocha was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

Fabrice Morvan was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

Bootsy Collins was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

There's just too much fun to be had.

Rodney's motives are beyond the comprehension of men (R. J. Greene), Sunday, 2 April 2006 20:14 (nineteen years ago)

Jazz is only played in lounge bars, obv.

Rodney's motives are beyond the comprehension of men (R. J. Greene), Sunday, 2 April 2006 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

A so-so thread with a frankiemachine refutation of Ned Raggett so.....("not sublime" or "perfect" but)good enough that the latter didn't respond.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Sunday, 2 April 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

There's a really really good reason Ned Raggett didn't respond, you know.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 2 April 2006 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

Was he sick???

Actually, I think the really, really, good reason he didn't respond was that hopefully the little fued about racism would end already.

I was just being a little smartass. He pointed out momus not responding, and he ended up doing the same thing. : )

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Sunday, 2 April 2006 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

was that actually frankie machine? he's lovely.

keyth (keyth), Sunday, 2 April 2006 23:17 (nineteen years ago)

Mike's a wise man.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 3 April 2006 00:15 (nineteen years ago)

Ok. Now I know there's definitely something that I don't know about.... maybe.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Monday, 3 April 2006 01:10 (nineteen years ago)

Either that, or it's pointless to answer back to the one and only frankie machine!

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Monday, 3 April 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

The most appropriate person to respond to frankie machine's post is probably me, as he was trying to refute my argument.

I disagree with him and stand by what I said. Since I'm being accused of introducing Foucault as a distraction to disguise the fact that i'm not actually engaging with Momus's argument, I'll avoid referring to Foucualt.

"That seems to contradict what you said above about there being racism in everything: 'I doubt there's a person in this thread (or in the world, more likely) who doesn't harbor some form of racial predjudice, myself included.'

If I see sex in everything -- let's say I'm some sort of crusading Mary Whitehouse figure, but I begin to take it way too far -- I'm actually very close to being a 'sex maniac', aren't I? At the very least, I'm making sex a more, not a less, important part of the way humans relate to one another. Dawkins is right: we don't get beyond race because we don't want to. "

What Momus is arguing here is that trying to identify/expose racism (our own and others) will never liberate us from issues of race because it in fact does precisely the opposite: it further constructs and complicates the issue of race. Momus argues that we should try to avoid reading stuff in terms of what it says about race, because we're actually imposing a critical race-obsession on the material we critique. Hence we can't "move beyond" race.

But the difference between Mary Whitehouse and a post-colonial theorist is that Whitehouse thinks it's self-evident what "sex" is, she talks about it in a way that seeks to demonstrate its reality, its concreteness. The post-colonial theorist is doing the opposite w/r/t race, questioning its self-evidence as a category, its unitary meaning, its easy application. Basically the distinction is that the post-colonial theorist thinks that "race" is a discursive category, whereas Alice thinks sex is a real thing.

Momus, in defending the original Nick Crowe article, is defending Crowe's blithe assumptions about black culture and white culture - assumptions which are not so much stating reality as creating it. Momus then turns around accuses people critical of Crowe as being the one's putting race as an issue into the article. This isn't wrong in Foucauldian terms, it's just wrong point blank: you can't write (or defend) sweeping generalisations about different races or cultures and then argue that it's your critics who are introducing race as a category.

Frankiemachine says:

"But it is perfectly intellectually coherent to believe that there is such a thing as human nature and that it includes tendencies that are likely to manifest themselves as racism. In fact it's what most people believe, academic philosophers included. Foucault would disagree but that doesn't make it wrong."

I'm not sure how this relates to Momus's argument; if anything it supports the very argument which Momus was trying to question, which is that we all tend toward racism in some way. And I think that Momus would disagree with your point. So even if it's right, for him to use it in his own defence would be very inconsistent.

Momus and/or Frankiemachine are welcome to come back and disagree with me now that I've summoned up the courage to respond...

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 3 April 2006 04:04 (nineteen years ago)

And now, Round 2 begins!!

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Monday, 3 April 2006 04:18 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

or not.

That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 10 September 2007 19:07 (eighteen years ago)

RIP

Ned Raggett, Monday, 10 September 2007 19:13 (eighteen years ago)

This is one of the threads that started me reading ILX regularly.

I'm not sure if that's good or not.

I eat cannibals, Monday, 10 September 2007 20:40 (eighteen years ago)

ha that's ok i found ilx iirc by google searching "chuck klosterman"

latebloomer, Monday, 10 September 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)

i immediately regret that post

latebloomer, Monday, 10 September 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

But it explains so much

marmotwolof, Monday, 10 September 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

poet laureate Andrew Motion

So there was this joke in my old workplace where someone wanted to double-check that this was just pronounced like "motion," and someone else claimed it was pronounced like "mow TIE on," and then the original person went around for days saying "Andrew Mow-TIE-On" -- this is lodged in my brain to the point where I often actually think it IS pronounced that way.

(P.S.: Googling to confirm that it ISN'T produced a page noting that "Wikipedia" is "pronounced wikee/pee/dee/er," which is Being British Gone Mad.)

nabisco, Monday, 10 September 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

how on earth did you think it was pronounced nabisco?

Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

Which, Motion or Wikipedia?

nabisco, Monday, 10 September 2007 22:17 (eighteen years ago)

we british do deliberately mispronounce things to fuck wid yall.

eg where diana is buried. althorp or althrop -- i forget which, but one of those words is how it's spelt, one is how it's said.

That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 10 September 2007 23:02 (eighteen years ago)

Wikipedia

Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2007 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

Without an R at the end, at least!

jaymc, Monday, 10 September 2007 23:28 (eighteen years ago)

????????

r|t|c, Monday, 10 September 2007 23:34 (eighteen years ago)

English types pronounce words that end in "a" with a sound that's more akin to "er" to North American ears. e.g. Sheila becomes Shee-ler, etc.

Lostandfound, Tuesday, 11 September 2007 01:10 (eighteen years ago)

Or to return to when the thread was fun:

Nick Crowe was the drumma for the rock band Gay Dad

Lostandfound, Tuesday, 11 September 2007 01:12 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, L+F, I understand that many English types pronounce them that way, but it's something of a step from there to start coding the Rs into the prescribed standard pronunciation.

(Please let's not get into a thing about prescriptive versus descriptive linguistics here, since it's not about that; this strikes me as closer to the fact that lots of English speakers drop the Gs on the ends of gerunds, but nobody's yet pushing to have it in the dictionary as "pushin." Besides which it's not really British-standard in all regional accents to run in the R, is it?)

nabisco, Tuesday, 11 September 2007 01:52 (eighteen years ago)

Nick Crowe was the drumma for the rock band Gay Dad

moley, Tuesday, 11 September 2007 02:13 (eighteen years ago)

one year passes...

Russell Crowe was the drummer for the rock band Gay Dad.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 00:54 (sixteen years ago)

Revive was the drummer for Gay Thread

The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 00:55 (sixteen years ago)

Was really hoping that Nick Crowe, drummer for rock band Gay Dad, had googled himself and showed up here like that one MTV guy. Can't get everything we want :-(

what u arrestin me for, innit (╓abies), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 01:17 (sixteen years ago)

Nick Crowe is a 5 time Isle of Man TT Winner and 2008 British F2 Champion of sidecar racing. He started his career as a passenger before switching to driver in 2000, handing the passenger seat to his childhood friend Darren Hope.

ecuador_with_a_c, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 02:19 (sixteen years ago)

Nick Crowe (born 1968) is an English artist; mainly working in sculpture. Much of his small work is internet-based.

ecuador_with_a_c, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 02:19 (sixteen years ago)

sculpturing your internetz

ayotollah (The Reverend), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 06:09 (sixteen years ago)

like that one MTV guy

^who dat?

Thanks, Casey Westcott Fleet Foxes (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 06:39 (sixteen years ago)

oh man

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 06:42 (sixteen years ago)

Was really hoping that Nick Crowe, drummer for rock band Gay Dad, had googled himself and showed up here like that one MTV guy.

Can think of enough candidates for a poll that this has really happened.

F.C. Farcottonlocomotiv (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 07:43 (sixteen years ago)

That would be good!

Mark G, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 09:38 (sixteen years ago)

This thread is homophobic, just because someone's dad is gay doesn't make his opinions invalid.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 12:19 (sixteen years ago)

We're highly prejudiced against drummers.

someone who genuinely likes to make children cry (The Reverend), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 12:26 (sixteen years ago)

It's not his fault he was born a drummer!

Tuomas, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 12:29 (sixteen years ago)

DJ Frodawg & MC Gam G ft. M-Lo and Pip of Da Otha Hobbitz "One Ring Mufuckaz"
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, March 9, 2004 9:29 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark

this is like a dad joke and a custos joke rolled into one

michael jatas (r1o natsume), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 12:40 (sixteen years ago)

If you liked that one, there's plenty more here:

RotN

Tuomas, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 12:41 (sixteen years ago)

four years pass...

Open goal because it's a Daily Mail piece -- and it's a different Nick -- but the beginning made me think of the legend up top there:

With her ear glued to her mobile phone, my 11-year-old daughter, Millie, was deep in conversation, her brow furrowed as she discussed some arrangement with a friend.

I listened in, as I made jam in the kitchen. ‘Lol, that’s well sick!’ Millie said. ‘DW, yolo!’

This indecipherable code-speak (‘sick’ means awesome, ‘DW’ is don’t worry and ‘yolo’ means you only live once) was delivered in an accent I could only place as somewhere between South London, downtown Los Angeles and Kingston, Jamaica.

It certainly isn’t indigenous to our home village of Ashtead, in the rolling Surrey hills.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 13 October 2013 18:34 (eleven years ago)

Sounds like a skit from Little Britain

۩, Sunday, 13 October 2013 18:50 (eleven years ago)

ah yes, the old downtown los angeles accent that we all know so well.

wk, Sunday, 13 October 2013 19:03 (eleven years ago)

nine years pass...

Oh hey the reboot:

https://thespectator.com/book-and-art/oliver-anthony-sorry-state-rolling-stone/

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 15 August 2023 15:22 (two years ago)

Even as recently as 2020 the magazine boasted accomplished journalists such as Matt Taibbi.

serving aunt (stevie), Wednesday, 16 August 2023 21:16 (two years ago)

damn ned no fun, i thought tanya headon got the reboot

the late great, Wednesday, 16 August 2023 21:36 (two years ago)


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