who the hell likes both indie AND mainstream rap nowadays?

I don't hear nobody complaining about Kanye's Benz.

really, i'm not so sure why you are so focussed on this

more seriously, I think the answer to your question is lots and lots of people (including lots of MAINSTREAM RAPPERS), just this issue seems to get ridiculously overblown on ILM...I mean like the Radio K guys that do the Beatbox (for a MN-centric example) don't seem to shy away from more mainstream stuff alongside their usual diet of indie stuff....I guess I was just joking because the whole idea of having to pick sides like a pick-up basketball game and define yourself as undie or anti-undie is pretty silly....just like what you like.

(but really, I thought the rap wars had settled down into pleasant tolerance by now)

no way that makes it industrial!

ii) anticon has certain flaws

iii) i'll agree with everyone else that you've blown it out of proportion, nate

I'm guessing some of the animosity in this has to do with some indie groups' decade-old continued insistence on pop-rap's awfulness (dating way back; post-traumatic Hammer syndrome or something) and insistence on "skillz" over hooks, but that attitude doesn't seem as pervasive these days as it was in '97 or so (and has seemed to turn to infighting over who's more raw/less nerdy or whatever). The anti-backpacker attitude, meanwhile, has exploded like fifteen-fold even as indie rap is still mostly a strictly critical/cult phenom and a commercial near-non-entity (with a few Jux and Rawkus albums nudging the 100,000 mark a couple years after release, if that). It reminds me of a bunch of Judas Priest fans bitching about Black Flag. I just wanna yell "THEY BOTH PLAY SABBATH-DAMAGED GUITAR RIFFS AND WHOMP ASS IN A SOMEWHAT HOMOEROTIC MANNER, DAMN IT".

I'm guessing that nobody in the "blowing it out of proportion" crowd is all that heavily into indie rap.

that's kinda right for me...I was pretty into it around the Rawkus heyday...around the time Funchrusher Plus came out...Black Star...those first few Soundbombing...NY Reality Check (I think that what it's called had Braggin' Writes by J-Live)...early Atmosphere....

Lately, I guess my interest has waned somewhat. I still make it a point to listen to the local college raps show most Saturdays, but it's infrequent that stuff motivates me to buy it. I've been meaning to pick up the Mr. Len and Sage Francis stuff to play a little catchup...last thing I probably bought was the J-Live full lenght. I liked it mostly, but satisfied seem to stand head and shoulders above the rest.

Of course, I fully realize that this lack of interest in mostly me not hearing stuff I should be rather than a decline in quality of the genre.

but at this point it's less contentious than the yawning chasm of Nashville vs. alt.country, that shit's gettin' GANGSTA, I'm expecting someone to get shot any second now

probably Robbie Fulks

xp b2d: look, and despair

Seems like a lateral move on their part.

If that's the case, Nate, what are you going to do about it?

Want me to start a "who the hell likes both Wax Trax! AND IDM electronic dance music nowadays?" thread to make my point to you?

You can't get the green tea stains out of your Carharrts.

strongo: I think it's come back around to the whole rare groove fetish thing what with RJD2 and Ant and 9th Wonder and them

(x-posts)

And Jay-Z and Kweli and Outkast and Cee-lo?

haha, mainstream country people don't NEED to fight back, their records sell hundreds of thousands more copies than even Wilco!

the funny thing is that the two audiences are pretty different, but the credibility battle is being fought amongst all the more traditional country artists about who is More Real Country (everyone claims this) while alt. artists are just trying to stay out of the fray, or have turned "pop," or disappeared. but yeah, there's a lot of alt. artists accusing others of being sellout divas (Fulks v. Adams) and Nashville and Texas artists doing lots of songs about how Nashville and/or Texas has lost its country soul (T.Keith v. N.Maines, C.Robison v. B.Paisley, A.Moorer & S.Lynne v. EVERYONE). It's not so much two different camps as it is infighting within each camp, which is much more fun.

I'm just making the further point, Nate, that sometimes while it's lonely to be the "one guy" out there that is very knowledgable in two forms of what you think come from the same roots, while the rest of the world is going to think the opposite, that you also have a pretty unique advantage as far as being able to write about such issues.. (hint hint). You're a great writer, Nate, and you know that. I'm curious to see you phrase this lamenting in another way, rather than just ask the ILM masses.

b2d, but wasn't the Fulks vs Adams thing just more about the fact that Fulks thinks Adams is just a wanker personally? Also, Robbie just likes to provoke people period.

Me too. I don't usually respond because I don't have much to add to the discussion, but I find them interesting...

Matt H: yeah but it carries a greater weight than that, Matt; there's a strong subtext of "REAL country guys don't act like that", Fulks has a nicely shaped chip on his shoulder, and Adams is vulnerable, esp. as he's no longer the RA from Whiskeytown and now does llor dna kcor.

strawmen are fun. just ask nate.

shit-ton of x-posts strongo k-OTM about boho shit

I take them home, do a little research, and find out what I THOUGHT was a more "underground" single was just a white pressing of something mainstream, while the more smooth packaging of a single I bought ends up being hailed in the "backpack" circles.. but I couldn't really tell the fucking difference between those singles when I previewed them at the record store other than the fact that I liked them, they had a good backbeat, and the rapping didn't suck.

donut bitch OTM (PS: "Cutman" proves yr MBM/Bomb Squad thesis, you are not alone)

xp #1 (strongo): there's also the sense that the same kind of stuff that's considered "collegiate/boho" now was considered the backbone of hip-hop ten years ago (A Tribe Called Quest was hip-hop, but Black Star is "undie") and the people who listened to that Native Tongues/Heiro/Pharcyde style stuff back when it could still make it on the majors could be pissed at the whole marginalization of it, whether it's via label bullshit or just plain shifting tastes; also a lot of stuff gets pigeonholed unfairly due to indie label/collegiate fanbase status though some of it (Copywrite, f'rinstance) aren't that hugely out of place with hip-hop's current mode.
xp #2 (Broheems): I really wanna hear Chamillion now
xp #3 (strongo redux): You mean like the "sex offenders" strawman?
xp #4 (nickalicious): that's why the continued existence of the divide is so schoopid; also you need to say "shit" more

x-post: nate, i was mostly riffing on the "jess/trife aspersions" whatever the fuck that means, considering we both listen/listened to more underground hip-hop than you know that OTHER 90% of ilm who bought the college dropout with their shins record and thought they were the hottest thing since rosa parks.

or they could be listening to broken beat by now, or they could have grown up and be listening to adult contemporary, or they could have decided they didn't really like the fourth album and preferred jay-z.

which is really how the marginalization happened, anyway. looking at it like it's something external doesn't make sense.

Because ATCQ was making music that sounded like that in 1990, where as Blackstar was '98. It's regressive. No one thinks it's weird that E6 stuff is considered indie today, while the Beach Boys were huge in 1965.

Anyways, I'm blowing shit outta proportion again and I'm not even stressed about jess/trife as much as I used to be. Enh. Fah. Hey, my favorite crunk comp is on the same label that gave us 3 Feet High and Rising, does that mean anything?

xp Colin: yeah, pretty much: "the people who listened to that Native Tongues/Heiro/Pharcyde style stuff back when it could still make it on the majors could be pissed at the whole marginalization of it, whether it's via label bullshit or just plain shifting tastes"

I can't really go at this much longer. My itinerary for the rest of the day:

4:15 -- get haircut (possibly a coming-to-terms-with-receding-hairline fuzzhead buzz)
5:00-5:15 -- work on last-minute Aceyalone feature for SW
5:15-12:00 -- stress
12:00-3:00 -- finish review

4:30ish - go home
4:30ish to 9:00 - record
9:00 - start drinking
10:00 - start dancing (regardless of whereabouts/music)
12:00 - begin drunk-dialing exes
1:00 - hit-up Popeye's
1:30 - bong-rips
2:00 - attempt to record wasted, ruin tracks I recorded earlier
4:00 - pass out in bean bag chair with shoes on

4:15 -- get haircut (possibly a coming-to-terms-with-receding-hairline fuzzhead buzz)

ah...that's a big day in a man's life, nate.

not looking like Jack Black is a plus.

What male pattern baldness has joined, may no mainstream/underground rap beef tear asunder!

That was a major problem with the last Aesop Rock album - other than "You're Famous" and "11:35" he got lost in the sub-El-P beats.

absolutely not, i'd say. part of the difficulty in assessing what exactly is going on with a scene split like the indie/mainstream hip hop one is that everyone who would bother thinking about it is so close that myopia takes over. hip hop (any music really) is something that people love deeply, intellectually, emotionally and to try to suss out why someone doesn't like something you do; or vice versa; AND take into account how that music is portrayed in the press, by itself, on tv, even how it's filed in the record store- winds up kind of dizzying.

so looking at a scene that is OBVIOUSLY NOT hip hop (nashville vs alt country) yet is enduring many of the same issues is pretty revealing, i think.

not to mention: both sundered genres have their origins in the same tools and circumstances (practically all hip hop was spit out of a sampler at some point, whether it became indie or mainstream later; practically all country was spit out of a martin guitar at some point, whether it became alt-c or nashville contemporary later). someone, i forget who, also mentioned that boy/girl collabs like sean paul & blu cantrell "breathe" just reinforced that the same feuding-relationship-songs crop up in hip hop and country.

I like old mainstream stuff and new undie stuff. Chuck D and Dose One need to collaborate. Ice-T and Buck 65 could make a great fucking album. KRS-One and Sage Francis. Etc.

don't worry though, play on playa, it's all good.