Timbaland vs. Bomb Squad (Hank Shocklee)

I guess my point is are we living in the "Golden Age of Hip Hop" or was the time of Public Enemy it?

I agree re: Elvis vs. Stones.
Its more like Stones:Beatles::Neptunes:Timbaland. (I think Sasha said as much in his piece defending Timbaland's 2003-4 output).

I think its weird how most hip-hop "heads" nowadays consider the early 90s the "golden age of hip-hop", where as all these ILXers actually consider it one of the LEAST important times for hip-hop! I'm wondering if it has something to do with the creative period of electronic music coinciding with hip-hop's creative burst in the early 90s? Just a theory.

What ever happened to them? I would love to hear what Shocklee would get up to with pro tools. Screw it if they could not get real distribution cause of all the samples they use, just to hear where they would take it now would be cool.

Basically, there production became outdated when DJ Premier, Large Professor, Pete Rock's production became the groundbreaking standard.

although i am pretty sure there are quite a few older guys here too, maybe its just the obsession with new sounds.

I think most of those people would AGREE that PE was the "golden age" for hip-hop.

And I'm certainly not someone who thinks post-91 stuff sucks.

calm down...
there is no doubt there have been awesome things released after 91, timba in particular as well as the neptunes, but to claim its all about what is going on now is also a little narrow focused

Just now, eh?

Peter Shapiro had a good line in his Rough Guide to Hip Hop which I always liked, talking about how loudly Public Enemy were being lionized & lauded as the future of Hip Hop, and how NWA were getting just as disparaged: Shapiro likens this to the lionizing of Prog Rock like Yes, Crimson and Genesis at the exact moment that Black Sabbath was getting bashed as brain dead.

I don't hear much of a PE influence in Timbaland's work at all, at least not one that's stronger than all the other old-school sources he's working in there.

I agree with this 100% (although I think PE's music is a LOT better than Yes/Crimson/Genesis! And I do love PE's music a lot, I think it was just HARDER to replicate...it isn't particularly pop-sounding).

well I don't necessarily see _all_ prog as a showcase of technical virtuosity. but one of the hallmarks of it were compositions that were slaved over. layers & details, density of sound.

In which case there was plenty of crossover between hip hop and club music. A la electro Arthur Baker ect.

Why is a relationship w/ club music necessary for a "golden age"? I mean, I love dance music and everything, but an era like the early 90s to me was a period of huge creativity in hip-hop that I don't see anything wrong with considering it a golden age, regardless of its relationship with the dance floor.
I mean, Wu-Tang made some of my favorite music ever, and Liquid Swords, Cuban Linx, and their first solo hardly had any club bangers on them.

And yeah, I think Timbo's influences re: rhythmic variation were definitely more dirty south production style, miami bass etc. than drum n bass.

Personally I think it sounds like Timbaland was just a great musician with a good ear who decided to get into hip-hop and R&B production. And there's gonna be a huge difference between a musician's take on hip-hop and someone like say Primo who just sampled older songs and built new (but obviously still similar) songs out of em. I just think Timbaland's sound has more to do with the fact that he has a lot less limitations than someone like Primo or RZA. He's said in interviews that he pretty much listens to rock music - Dr Dre and Outkast being the only hip-hop he really likes. And anyone who makes music will tell you, if you just go with it and let the music flow its usually not going to sound a whole lot like what you listen to anyway.

I think you're following a fallacy about sampling there - that sampling makes someone not a musician? That Timbo DOESN'T sample? etc.

When talking about Timbaland's style, he's more of a mixing pot of a million different styles that manifest in two ways: weird sample chop/weird drums (Prince Paul?) or 4 bar synth melodies (Dre). And either way, I'd probably say I prefer the Bomb Squad's production on some sample juxtaposition shit, you know?

And I was saying Timbo is only starting his influence on hip hop when compared to the Bomb Squad, whose influence started maybe 10 years before his did. I never once said that Timbaland was at all influenced by the Bomb Squad, really. I don't know where that would really make sense, they don't quite sound similar and have totally different production styles, obviously.

Calm down.

Thats not what RZA or CERTAINLY not what Premier do man.

Seriously, that would be kinda cool.

Maybe tim just gets all his samples from sample cds and he never listens to any of the stuff people credit him with. That last missy video with the dancers on the street and the horn sounds has a distinct kinda ravey feel to it.

As far as "letting the music flow", my point is when Timbland is working on a song and gets stuck on an idea, he doesn't think to himself "what would Dre do??" NO - he lets the music flow. If you think thats bullshit you just don't know what you're talking about.
Anyone who makes music and takes pride in their own music will back me up. Its all about the NEW - the new idea, finding that new sound. It just comes from inside - you soak in your influences; you don't just try to do what you think they might do in a given situation. You think thats bullshit??

x-post obvy

"unique"

"forwards"

Either in a thread awhile back I posted regarding a Ta-Nehisi Coates article on Prefuse 73 and hiphop production or in some other article by Coates or Neil Drumming, Drumming praised Prefuse for using more than one loop and noted how bored he was getting with the one loop approach. Of course others, including myself (and picking up on some stuff Simon Reynolds wrote), took Prefuse to task for being mere stereotypical prog without the innovativeness or fun of Timbaland, et. al.

So is it possible, within financial and musical constraints, to create multi-looped hiphop that's not stereotypical prog and appeals to ILXers, PE fans, Kogan/Eddy L'trimm and early hiphop supporters (and those of you who think it's all good)?....

First off, multiple loops have been the standard for a long-ass time. Second, people generally don't just loop stuff up, and haven't since Large Professor first starting chopping and filtering on Breaking Atoms and DJ Premier followed suit with Daily Operation. Step in the Arena was like the last great album to be comprised entirely of looped samples, and even that was layered with multiple samples on a single track.

Timbaland has released tracks with multiple samples overlapping. So has virtually every producer of the past 15 years. Its not "prog", it was just that technology and production breakthroughs in the early 90s allowed producers to do more with their samples.

I've changed my mind about Public Enemy :: Yes/Genesis et al. Because the Bomb Squad wasn't interested in some high-minded classical-aesthetic Instrumental virtuosity, their music was dope cuz it was dense and aggressive. It was the overall aesthetic that appeals to listeners, not the production style.

Yes it's possible as PE did, to use technology and lots of samples to create a powerful dense sound as opposed to a stereotypical self-indulgent prog one.

Premier was "[melding multiple samples] into a single loop that largely repeats throughout a song" before Timbo...not sure if you were arguing that Timbo was the first to do this or not, but I think its a pt. worth noting.

I wouldn't push the analogy too much further myself, either. 'Prog' means way too many things to different people at this point, I really don't like much of it beyond the Rock In Opposition stuff, but relative to hip hop PE really were slaving on some intricate sounds.

ok off to listen to "Supper's Ready"

the bomb squad is more of a cult classic (did they do a few tracks on that son of bazerk album?). their dramatic effect was more behind the scenes with a quick mainstream flicker. timbaland is everywhere.

This discussion should really go back to what Kogan was saying upthread re hiphop influenced by Miami bass. Arguably Timbo was influenced by this and other non-Northeastern hiphop that was more club-oriented. As Kogan and Chuck Eddy point out, such southern styles, aren't considered by some part of a golden age. Their lyrical content is seen as lacking, and some say the music is too simplistic(the latter is the wrongheaded argument discussed above).

Hiphop critics like Coates and Drumming (but not others) are bored with a single repeating loop throughout a song (whether that loop was created using multiple samples, a single sample, or by a simple keyboard or whatever).

Hiphop critics like Coates and Drumming (but not others) are bored with a single repeating loop throughout a song (whether that loop was created using multiple samples, a single sample, or by a simple keyboard or whatever).

That's weird to me cuz hip-hop has been about that like forevs.

The BOMB SQUAD produced the entire album!

(btw, I was just listening to Amerikkka's Most Wanted this weekend and the sampled/structure of those songs is *insane*, hardly anything is a repeated loop).

Ha ha - I never thought I'd see Csikszentmihalyi namechecked on ILM.

The best thing is that his name is pronounced 'She sent me high'. Unless my social psychology lecturer was making it up.

Sasha Frere-Jones excerpt from May 23, 2003 string on rap production, Prefuse 73, and "vocal complexity" in rap

Village Voice/DC C. Paper writer on "vocal complexity" in rap & Prefuse 73 vs. Kogan, Frere-Jones take on production

Prefuse 73 has probably gotten people hooked by suggesting change within the genre, i.e. he keeps to 4/4 time, emphasizes bumpativity while he's flying the filleted audio over the beat. (I get super tired of his shit after about 20 minutes, esp. on this album. Not enough space or something. Not that it matters.) I assume he's in this conversation because he's got enough backbeat to attract rappers but also brings all that sequencing flim flam and DSP trickery that satisfies Warp's orthodoxy. (2001's bouncing ball pressroll = 1981's anxious keytar.) I think Herren's work is usually a hint more than a real leap, and that's the Aphex twin disease: "I got the sound, I executed a pattern, erm, that's plenty, where's my cheese, look, here's my Xbox."
The same kind of sketched-out quality manifests itself in these "melodies," generally the site of a generation split. Many younger listeners don't mind hearing a 4 or 5 note motif that never develops or hugs a line, even if the track mutzes along for 6 or 7 minutes. In contrast, most people over 30 feel teased by that shit, and can't adapt to the non-teleological, no-payoff nature of lil' pineapple chunks floating in the Jello. I prefer the old-fashioned train-tracks-melody going somewhere (if only in circles) but when my hardwiring isn't firing, the new style seems perfectly fine (and of course it is, as is any aesthetic that does what it sets out to do).

The boringness of hip-hop tracks probably has material and economic roots. It's become easy in the last few years to get decent string and horn sample modules for cheap, and sequencing has become dead easy. Add massive hard drive space and trackism replaces songism! We go from Mantronix laboriously piecing together multi-track compositions with low memory samplers and razor blades (not necessarily a "better" or more "authentic" method but it certainly forces you to think your track through in the 35 hours it takes to do the fucking thing) to Mannie Fresh loading his sounds and executing tracks in 30 minutes.

Add the economic extension pullcord--the producer takes the tracks to market and they sell, big. So why change your presets?Why waste two loops on a song, when you could make two tracks and be that closer to finishing an 18.99 price point album? If people rejected the output and went for something different (which will happen eventually because of fashion cycles and novelty needs), the repetition would change, but even that would demand some huge minimum number sea change. "B.O.B." didn't exactly start a stampede of gospel electro funk rock tracks. But the capitalist would say it wasn't nearly a big enough hit to scare Beats By The Pound into changing their floppy disks. Complicating all this is that many assembly-line producers have enough incredible moments to keep their egos together. (They know which tracks suck, too.)

I think you're oversimplifying. Go back to the original string I quoted from and read Sasha's comment in its full context. He is in part referring to the arguments of others and neither he nor I are following a rockist line.

Sasha has been writing about hiphop for awhile and I believe he is now writing a book on the subject based upon interviews and research. If you'd like to question him you can go to his blog and e-mail him.

Regarding your doubts on his Mannie Fresh statement, Sasha may have spoken with Mannie Fresh himself in preparation for the book.

But I do disagree with his suggestion that the emphasis on repetition etc. is entirely (or largely) economic - it seems that hip-hop has ALWAYS been obsessed with minimalism to a certain extent - the bomb squad are known for the density of their tracks, but they definitely had songs that were just a single loop repeated for emphasis. DJ Premier's entire career has been moving more and more towards minimalism, not because of economic concerns but because his creative progression has just been increasingly stripped down as time passed - compare "DJ Premier in Deep Concentration" to "Come Clean." I think also the influence of a creative artist like Dr. Dre increased the emphasis on minimalism in hip-hop production.

I also think Prefuse's music is really great, although not for any reason as ridiculous as it "pushing boundries" in hip-hop or something.

Am I still missing the point? Maybe, but damn that's a long thread.

Clarify for me if you could!

Bill Stephney’s Top 20 Recordings of All Time

As a founding member of the Bomb Squad, Bill Stephney was one of the principal architects of the first two Public Enemy albums as well as Ice Cube’s AmeriKKKa’s Most Wanted. *= LP

1. Good Times – Chic
2. Sucker MCs – Run DMC
3. It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back – Public Enemy*
4. Heartbeat – Taana Gardner
5. Led Zeppelin (1st Album) – Led Zeppelin*
6. Make if Funky – James Brown
7. Love TKO – Teddy Pendergrass
8. Straight Outta Compton – NWA*
9. Gratitude – Earth, Wind & Fire*
10. Raising Hell – Run DMC*
11. Dance to the Drummer’s Beat – Herman Kelly
12. Set it Off – Stafe
13. Zenyatta Mondatta – Police*
14. Don’t Look Any Further – Dennis Edwards with Siedah Garrett
15. I Know You, I Live You – Chaka Khan
16. Licensed to Ill – Beastie Boys*
17. Raw – Big Daddy Kane
18. Sugar Sperm – Captain Skyy
19. Songs in the Key of Life – Stevie Wonder*
20. Mr Magic – Grover Washington Jr

interesting that he prefers led zep 1

Reginald C Dennis’s 25 Musical Turning Points of Rap’s Old School

Music editor of hip hop magazine, The Source. Roughly chronological order 1979-85.

1. Rapper’s Delight – Sugar Hill Gang
2. Super Rappin’ – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
3. Funk You Up - Sequence
4. Rapture – Blondie
5. Breaks, the – Kurtis Blow
6. Adventures of Super Rhymes – Jimmy Spicer
7. Rapper Reprise – Sugar Hill Gang & the Sequence
8. Rappin’ & Rockin’ the House – Funky Four + 1
9. Body Rock – Treacherous Three
10. Love Rap – Spoonie Gee
11. Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
12. Showdown – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five Vs the Sugar Hill Gang
13. Disco Dream – Mean Machine
14. Flash to the Beat – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
15. Planet Rock – Afrika Bambaataa & the Soul Sonic Force
16. Message, the – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
17. Beat Bop – Rammellzee Vs K-Rob
18. It’s Good to be the King – Mel Brooks (the film-maker!)
19. Break Dance Electric Boogie – West Street Mob
20. Rockit – Herbie Hancock
21. Buffalo Girls – Malcolm McLaren
22. Problems of the World Today – Fearless Four
23. White Lines (Don’t Do It) – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
24. Street Justice – The Rake
25. Sucker MCs – Run DMC

more here btw http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/new_book_of_rock_lists.htm

Reginald C Dennis’s Favorite Songs of All Time

Music editor of hip hop magazine, The Source.

1. La-Di-Da-Di – Doug E Fresh & MC Ricky D
2. Eric B is President – Eric B & Rakim
3. Rebel Without a Pause- Public Enemy
4. Message, the – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
5. 8th Wonder – Sugarhill Gang
6. Sucker MCs – Run DMC
7. Peter Piper – Run DMC
8. Straight Outta Compton – NWA
9. So What’Cha Sayin’ – EPMD

Sugarhill’s Greatest Hits

1. The Message – Grand Master Flash & the Furious Five
2. White Lines (Don’t do It) – Grandmaster Melle Mel
3. Rapper’s Delight – Sugarhill Gang
4. That’s the Joint – Funky Four + 1
5. Apache – Sugarhill Gang
6. Adventures of Grand Master Flash on Wheels of Steel – Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five
7. Spoon’nin Rap – Spoonie Gee
8. Yes We Can Can – Treacherous Three
9. We Want to Rock – Crash Crew
10. Funk You Up – Sequence

Tommy Boy’s Greatest Hits

1. O.P.P – Naughty by Nature
2. Planet Rock – Afrika Bambaataa & Soulsonic Force
3. Looking for the Perfect Beat – Afrika Bambaataa & the Soulsonic Force
4. Payoff Mix (Mastermix of G.L.O.B.E. & Whiz Kid’s ‘Play that Beat Mr DJ’ – Double Dee & Steinski
5. Danger Zone – Planet Patrol
6. No Sell Out – Malcolm X & Keith LeBlanc
7. Doowutchyalike – Digital Underground
8. Me Myself & I – De La Soul
9. Tender Love – Force MDs
10. Ladies First – Queen Latifah
11. Humpty Dance – Digital Underground
12. Play at Your Own Risk – Planet Patrol

Reginald C Dennis Picks the Best Rappers of All Time

1. Spoonie Gee
2. Melle Mel
3. Grandmaster Flash
4. Kool Moe Dee
5. LL Cool J
6. Rakim
7. Del the Funkee Homosapien
8. Big Daddy Kane
9. D.O.C.
10. Ice Cube
11. MC Ren
12. Snoop Doggy Dogg
13. Treach
14. KRS One

Worst Rapper of All Time: Geraldo (Wack in 2 languages, English & Spanish)

does he mean Gerardo there...?

Chuck D Picks 11 Hip Hop Albums that No One Can Do Without

1. Raising Hell – Run DMC
2. Death Certificate – Ice Cube
3. Message, the – Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
4. Mama Said Knock You Out – LL Cool J
5. Criminal Minded – Boogie Down Productions
6. Paid in Full – Eric B & Rakim
7. Naughty by Nature – Naughty by Nature
8. Straight Outta Compton – NWA
9. Back in Black – Whodini
10. Looks Like a Job for… - Big Daddy Kane
11. Power – Ice T