make ethan stop hating company flow

"at least i'm not the only one, then. about a year ago i got into an argument with this chunky-ass goateed white guy at fat beats atl"

wait, was that Dose One?

"who insisted that i wasn't a real head because i listened to r&b and didn't like co- flow. fuck that fat motherfucker"

oh, nevermind.

(real life in action, a summary:

ethan: i are making sundar a mixtape of "glitchhop"; pleez recommend something.

jess: well, there's can ox-

ethan: I HATE COMPANY FLOW.

obviously this runs deeper than just fat goateed white rappers and stagnant, leaden beats. this is a phobia, pure and simple.

(my take: can ox album of the year, or at least fighting it out with hot shots ii until dec. 31st for the top spot. [who will be the winner?] el-producto FANTADBULOUS producer [i mean..."cheap-ass dr. who"...or whatver he called it = brill...am i the only one who heard "the cold vein" as the wu tang as recast by the bbc radiophonic workshop?]...one of those "two many words in a verse" type MCs so redolent of undie hiphop..."funcrusher" = quite great in places, drags in others, "little johnny" = brill all around, the last co flow tracks, like "dpa" are CLASSIC, but more a runway for the can ox album than anything else.)

Vordul Megilah is definitely very stream-of-consciousness, though usually he pulls it off pretty well, like U-God on his best Wu-album shit, or Inspectah Deck. He gets carried away at times, though.

Vast Aire, on the other hand, he plays realist and ultra-abstract equally well. He's incredible. If you don't want this amazing verse spoiled then read no further, but the pictures he paints of New York couldn't be stuffed with much more grit and earth:

"And if there's a crack in the basement, crackheads stand adjacent anger displacement, from food stamp arrangement, you were a still-born baby, Mother didn't want you but you were still born, Boy meets world, of course his pop's is gone, What you figure, that chalky outline on the ground is a father figure? So he steps to the next stencil, that's a hustler infested with money and diamond cluster, Let's talk in laymen terms, Rotten apples and big worms, Early birds and poachers, New York is evil and it's coarse, so those who have more than them prepare to be victims, ate up by vultures or politicians in the dog-eat-dog culture, that'll sic 'em, Lack of mineral, we take it personal, A pigeon can't drop shit if it never flew, Every day is no frills, empty krills, broken 40 bottles and MC's with skills, I rest my head on 115, But miracles only happen on 34th, so I guess life is mean, And death is the median, And purgatory is the mold that we settle in, "No doubt" I've got that Eve's Bayou sense of touch, So I fought to touch every hand of a fan to read their thoughts: Battered wives, molested children, Roaches on the floor, rats in the ceiling, Cats walk around New York with two fillin's, One is in their mouth, the other, does the killin' I'm Vast Air, Kramer, top billin'

you should hear this album.

easier to read:

http://www.thecyberkrib.com/Lip_Service/Archive/cannibalox_irongalaxy. html

prodigy, 'survival of the fittest'

As a related question: does anyone else think the form of address typified by the verse above is very much in need of replacement? The differences in p.o.v, image, and trope between the two excerpts above reveal this huge gulf between a sort of broad assembly with the former and a me-me-me "this is what I do" (not even "see" or "hear") with the latter. I think a big step in the maturity of hip-hop will come when that latter form of address no longer dominates the form as a whole.

Vast Aire does battle rhymes and first-person stuff too - "The F- Word" for instance. The Iron Galaxy verses seem to be the most quoted of their lyrics - the point is though that I'd never read them as being social comment or anything, I'd just heard them as a really good flow, enjoying the pleasure of following someone's train of thought as they glue the metaphors together (eg the mean-median-mode thing). It may read didactically but it doesn't sound didactic, certainly less so than almost any other NYC rhymer who 'tackles' 'life' on the 'streets' (KRS-One in his less angry, more balanced mode, for instance). The dichotomy you're talking about Ethan has been there since way back - the best raps often combine me- me-me with the documentary viewpoint - cf. "The Message", which kicked a lot of this off, you have the personalised "Dont-push-me..." chorus and the preaching "A child is born with no state of mind" verse. It goes back before that, to the pulpit, I guess.

Ultimately what I really like about The Cold Vein is that it draws together nearly all my favourite things about hip hop right now. Vast Aire reminds me a bit of Ghostface Killah, wrapping his sophisticated rhymes inside a gangsta-style personality-first flow that would be endlessly listening even if he was a shit rhymeer. Likewise the arrangements resonate with the self-conscious futurism of contemporary gangsta, but instead of a high-tech consumer wonderland it's more like the underground mechanical slave city in Fritz Lang's Metropolis (which would make the lush sound of The Blueprint the equivalent of the neo-classical aristocratic playground on the surface?) preserving the underground's preoccupation with the "real" but making it less staid and more meaningful (the music on The Cold Vein tells me more about a certain type of New York experience than the words ever could). Funcrusher Plus, possibly because it was reacting against Biggie and Tupac as opposed to Dirty South & Jay-Z, just doesn't have the same enthrallingly fluxed feel to it.

On this point I agree with Ethan utterly and completely and totally. More in an upcoming FT piece (along with various other pieces that should have gone up Tuesday, but I've been ill).

"Triple felon MC minus the melanin/ when I bomb it's that type of shit that make baby Jessica jump in the well again"

"You wanna battle?/ It's better to look in the mirror and say "Candyman" five times"

All from one friggin' track. Ergo, classic. ;-)

Funcrusher Plus must've been the shit or something years ago but it hasn't aged the best. Instead of providing some raw "street" quality the lo-fi-ness just smothers the sound. Plus you can't help but feel that El-P and Big Jus are being all cryptic and hyper-intellectual for its own sake. To digress... I have enjoyed what I've heard on "Little Johnny from the Hospital" album and the new Mr. Len album. Has anybody else heard these?

"what? the narrative is exactly the thing that makes it better than goddamned cannibal ox. me-me-me is so fucking much more affecting than that 'he does this and he does that and the streets are filled this blah blah blah' "

I can see where you're coming from, ethan. the whole origin of vocals in hip-hop comes from this relentless, survival-of-the-fittest competitive perspective .. very invigorating, and a great tradition.

but there are other verses that are far off from that detached, "scrub that personalization away and turn street life into a clean dry thesis" mode you mentioned. he's just balanced, like I said -- he can do the abstract co flow politic shit, but more often he's referencing his family, like on B-Boy Alpha: "hated the sound of grandma's cryin', a crooked letter / you could hear it from the ground, or where the sky thunders / makes you wonder about early, sunday morning / relatives dressed in black and they all mourning / fools be bangin' in the [?], throwin' elbows / my first fight was me versus five burrows ... the holiest of holies [hip hop], it was '88 .. "while you playin 'death is what happens' / I found a passion for aerosal cans and hands clappin'"

oh, shit. I just read Tim's description of the music. I'll leave it alone -- he hammered that down

the title of your thread is a challenge, and I keep representing The Cold Vein because I think it's worthwhile .... you've got some Roots-style chants and shout-outs, some battle raps ..

I don't know. It's just one hip-hop album. Maybe Vast Aire won't live up to his potential. but he delivers verses personally, and with communal pronouns .. just reminds me of how there were multiple perspectives throughout poetic eras, from the Harlem Renaissance, to beat poetry and Ginsberg's shifting perspectives, back to the origins of hip-hop ... good stuff

chris

ethan: "cann ox dance critic aw-cute- it's-tom's-first-street-rhymes bullshit"

ILx-speech is weird, people's styles condense alot of imagery and meaning associations into dense little clusters. I'm kind of getting the hang of it, it's a nice arty approach -and- it saves time and space. but it leads to confusion, people trying to guess at each other's poetics ..

what I got from your quote above is that Cann Ox is on some 'deliberate delivery tutored towards critics who will get off on the combination of electronica-influenced grooves and urban street imagery condescendingly packaged in easily-mapped descriptions that negate the crucial sense of the self in hip-hop' ... and you're calling Tom on that that cuz he's the 'dance critic' false consciousness kid who doesn't know real testimonial from abstract poetic ivory tower bullshit

but maybe I'm wrong. what I don't get is that way above you seem to be all about the first-person ME perspective and yet you're arguing about favoring CoFlow's psuedo-scientific manifestoes over Can Ox, who do alot of the personal shit. likewise, The Cold Vein has beats galore, meshed with some nasty keyboard grime ... vs. your comment that you care more about the music than the lyrics.

?

The sounds still sounded great, but the beats - well, they just seemed inert, and more than I remembered had that misanthropic undie fussiness that turned me off Co Flow after initial excitement. Now Cann Ox is clearly not meant to be an easy album so it probably was "not what I was looking for" rather than "not good" (esp as my favourite i.e. most familiar through mp3 playlists tracks still sounded great) but my "Ethan has a point" post is more to say that yeah, I understand his arguments where I didn't before.

And please - if I made a point of backing off every time Ethan questioned a hip-hop album's validity I'd have long ago thrown my Brit-hop collection in the Thames and be left with nothing but the Beanie Sigel record.

just when its getting a bit too wordy and pretentious, El-P drops a ridiculous gem like but I'd fuck Laura Ingalls only when she's done with her chores or some other such gut-reaction style line.

As for El-P's production on Funcrusher, its gritty and intentionally dirty-sounding. As for the 'repetitive' nature of Vital Nerve...that's sort of the point? An important part of hip hop, I think, too. The repetitive-ness. Chord changes are for suckas.

Now while I love Funcrusher, I do think that the Can Ox rec is head and shoulders above it, primarily for consistency. I've never been able to listen to CoFlow front-to-back, but Cold Vein is nearly 80 mins and nearly all of it is gold. The production is unfuckwittable, and a good in-between Funcrusher and FanDam (another incredible album). And I like both Vast and Vordul as lyricists, although Vast has the slight edge Q-Tip/Phife style.

So yeah, I think hating on Funcrusher's ridiculous.

Oh, and I like R and B too.

Fakeness? I'm not sure I get what yr saying.

an interesting factoid I learned: Back in the day, "real" actually just was synonymous with "dope." "Dawg, this album is REAL!" meant that the album was dope. Not that 2pac was in it, or it had organic sounding drums, or whatever it is that defines "real" for you.

Cold Vein was the best album of 2001.

Is there no respect for rawness anymore? I like both of these albums in the same way I love Enter The 36 Chambers. Unbridled, raw hip-hop.

I don't know why everything in rap has to be funny or idiosyncratic. There's a time and place for everything. Still, Funcrusher Plus has a couple really funny lines, along with just humorous moments all around. And if you go to something like "D.P.A", you have the classic line: "I get my swerve on like a narcoleptic race car driver
on the autobahn in monsoon season"

Another point you could make is that the way Slint "Spiderland" is influential to indie rock, Company Flow's "Funcrusher Plus" is influential to indie rap. Neither are anywhere near perfect representations, but what they did for the corresponding artforms is undeniable, right?

somehow i always thought that was appropriate to this thread.

They did! It's called Bazooka Tooth! Granted it only sounds like he produced 2/3 of the album...

I am in love with "Constellation Funk" again at the moment tho.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0228/seward.php

Mr. Lif is definitely cool tho. He cracks me up on that DVD, and he's patient enough to put up with El-P's 24-hour-a-day mouth.

rather, i understand what part of it you think is "garbage", i was wondering what part could be made out to be "ignorant" (and not in the sense of seward willfully ignoring an aesthetic position that disinterests him)

I was just thinkin tho, I don't HATE El-P or any of the Def Jux cats by any means, and I know El-P was a big Jay-Z fan from way back. I think it would have been great if El-P did something along the lines of 'Pigeon' on the Black Album. That kind of chaotic, triumphant sound would have gone perfect with the 'its over' mood of that album.

Mostly all he did was say "this is boring and funkless and not very fun" -- the exact same shit all the same crits who sneer at "undie" say -- only he dribbled a bunch of halfarsed pseudo-rap languitch in his writeup. The only thing he convinced me of -- that he'd convince anyone unconverted to either side of -- is that he hates him some positive/experimental rap, yo. Yeah.

Fantastic Damage is my favorite rap album from 2002. The Black Album is my favorite rap album from 2003. Tough shit.

and i think (without having heard el-p since reading scott's piece an hour ago) that he nailed el-p's style pretty closely.

So what, unless you've been listening to hip-hop "since back in the day," courtesy of Top-40 radio, your opinion on hip-hop is irrelevant (perhaps downright offensive)?

I guess I'm one of those 'little fags' - though I've been buying and listening to hip-hop seriously for a year or so, and I own no label apparel of any affiliation (I'd rock a K Records t-shirt, though). My first three hip-hop purchases that I remember were The Coup's Party Music (for "5 Million Ways To Kill A CEO"), Blackalicious' Blazing Arrow and Fantastic Damage. I am the epitome, of everything you hate

How am I ruining music for you, again?

this is a ridiculous premise to begin with! EVERYONE likes hip-hop and is entitled to an opinion about it.

(since i'm feeling sheepish about posting too many lame pics in the last 24hrs i'm going to imply pics of mc skat kat and other rapping cartoon characters)

where to begin...

Yeah, but there's a big difference... Production-wise, the rawness in "Funcrusher Plus" works fine, but if you compare the Wu-Tang flow to El-P and Bigg Jus, there's no competition. Company Flow simply has no sense of timing, their flow consists of monotonous bundles of words without the necessary rhythmic pauses. Now they may have better lyrics than some other rappers, but rapping isn't about lyrics only, it's just as much about delivery. Because of this I had high expectations for "Little Johnny from the Hospital", but compared to production on Funcrusher Plus it was too cold and clinic, it seemed like there where no human emotions there at all...

It's a funny thing, on The Majesticons album all the other undie rappers manage to smoothen their flow to match theme of the record, that is, mainstream parody. But El-P can't. I guess he should quit rapping and stick to producing.

"....How am I ruining music for you, again? ..."

Wow. That was something. I think you missed my point. I like some of the Def Jux shit, but its a FAD and half of their little cult following is made up of smart ass kids who just have to have something they're into that no one else knows about. I mean, that same half of their fans would stop listening to them if they ever got on MTV a few times. I think you know I wasn't talking about you or any particular person here - quit starting shit.

Rolling snap, the pilot episode

The original cast was funnier.

"I drop so much shit my anus need an ice pack"

"Triple felon MC minus the melanin/ when I bomb it's that type of shit that make baby Jessica jump in the well again"

"You wanna battle?/ It's better to look in the mirror and say "Candyman" five times"

All from one friggin' track. Ergo, classic. ;-)

-- Clarke B., Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:00 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

well i mean they're both like nimoy spoken word but at least co flow are talking about space shit, cann ox is like nimoy somberly reciting bone thugz lyrics

-- ethan, Monday, December 17, 2001 8:00 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Link

ha

i have no idea why i was tryna say that would be a bad thing

i drop so much shit my anus need an ice pack

some good posts in this thread

so did you ever stop hating company flow

where's the thread where Jess liveblogs Funcrusher?

there was a good one where mark said co flow are afraid of the transformative power of art (unlike, say, girls aloud)

"You wanna battle?/ It's better to look in the mirror and say "Candyman" five times"

The inclusion of what I imagine is supposed to be a young boy with a high pitched voice saying "candyman" at the end of the verse, however, is pretty fucking egregious I must say.

there's a war goin on outside, no man is safe from / you could run but you can't hide forever / from these streets that we done took / you walkin with ya head down, scared to look / you shook, cause ain't no such things as halfway crooks / they never around when the beef cooks in my part of town / it's similar to vietnam / now we all grown up and old, and beyond the cop's control / they better have the riot gear ready / tryin to bag me and get rocked steady / by the mac one-double, i touch you / and leave you with not much to go home with / my skin is thick, cause i be up in the mix of action / if i'm not at home, puffin' lye, relaxin' / new york got a nigga depressed / so i wear a slug-proof underneath my guess / god bless my soul, before i put my foot down and begin to stroll / and to the drama i built, and all unfinished beef / you will soon be killed, put us together / it's like mixin vodka and milk / i'm goin out blastin, takin my enemies with me / and if not, they scarred, so they will never forget me / lord forgive me the hennesey got me not knowin how to act / i'm fallin and I can't turn back / or maybe it's the words from my man killa black / that i can't say so it's left a untold fact, until my death / my goal's to stay alive / survival of the fit, only the strong survive

prodigy, 'survival of the fittest'

-- ethan, Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:00 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link
I'd take the Cannibal Ox over that any day, Ethan.

As a related question: does anyone else think the form of address typified by the verse above is very much in need of replacement? The differences in p.o.v, image, and trope between the two excerpts above reveal this huge gulf between a sort of broad assembly with the former and a me-me-me "this is what I do" (not even "see" or "hear") with the latter. I think a big step in the maturity of hip-hop will come when that latter form of address no longer dominates the form as a whole.

-- [ban me], Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:00 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

NABISCO NEVER OTM

co flow have better beats

-- ethan, Tuesday, 18 December 2001 01:00

!!!

wau @ Nabisco post

"Triple felon MC minus the melanin/ when I bomb it's that type of shit that make baby Jessica jump in the well again"

That line is classick.

i still can't believe dude is named vordul megilah. so jewish-sounding.

I was listening to The Cold Vein a lot last week. I don't have much interest in Company Flow, but El-P's production on CV is mega-classic. All those long droning proggy keyboard chords are fucking awesome.

co flow have better beats

-- ethan, Tuesday, 18 December 2001 01:00

!!!

-- BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 8 December 2007 22:55 (Yesterday) Link

raw bdp-style rawkus shit >>>>> melodic sci fi nerd rap

i still don't get what's so wau about the nabisco post

hes saying he'll take cannibal ox "any day" over an infamous-era prodigy verse

I think it's safe to say they're both canonical records now.

It would be like WAU-ing that someone likes Pink Flag over Talking Book. Who the fuck cares?

tru gz

7 years later, will the tinderbox ignite once again? whatever the canonical status of either record i think what is questionable is nabisco's post is the implication that cannibal ox represents some sort of higher evolution of rap. he could be defended by citing his qualification, -- "dominates hip hope <i>as a whole</i>" (em) -- but the use of the word "maturity" i think gives it away.

argh html disaster

how much u think i can get for the 2x 12" funcrusher ep on ebay? does nerd rap have any cache these days? i have all these records cloggin up my closet.

man i'm sayin email me those auctions

lol hoos luvs nerd rap - ill make a thread if i ever get it together

It would be like WAU-ing that someone likes Pink Flag over Talking Book. Who the fuck cares?

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, January 1, 2008 11:44 PM (2 months ago) Bookmark Link

lol

'technical optical carbunkles'

this is still like the perfect def jux zing

at least i'm not the only one, then. about a year ago i got into an argument with this chunky-ass goateed white guy at fat beats atl who insisted that i wasn't a real head because i listened to r&b and didn't like co- flow. fuck that fat motherfucker.

-- ethan, Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:00 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

sorry about that, pipecock

^^^classic post

hahaha

ILx-speech is weird, people's styles condense alot of imagery and meaning associations into dense little clusters. I'm kind of getting the hang of it, it's a nice arty approach -and- it saves time and space. but it leads to confusion, people trying to guess at each other's poetics ..

lol