Beastie Boys - To The 5 Boroughs

shudder.

Though that Bad Brains album might be cool? (scratches chin)

"Ch-Check It Out"
"Right Right Now Now"
"3 The Hard Way"
"Time To Build"
"Rhyme The Rhyme Well"
"Triple Trouble"
"Hey Fuck You"
"Oh Word?"
"That's It That's All"
"All Lifestyles"
"Shazam!"
"An Open Letter to NYC"
"Crawlspace"
"The Brouhaha"
"We Got The"

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080150

Any ILMer who defends this or plans to buy this really ought to kill themselves.

They seriously make me want to vote for Bush.

I can't really defend those lyrics...yet I will buy this album...and at this point I don't even know why....(but I still refuse to commit suicide - it's a SIN! jesus told me so)...

I know it's already been said, but...Worst. Rap. Ever.

Sublime? Sublime are the friggin The Beatles compared to The Beastie Boys.

But Im sure the album will be decent to middling. hello nasty had some alright beats on it. I dont think I've listened to it in 3 years tho..

Yes.

Compared to what exactly?

Every other one that I've heard. Not all that many, you understand. Maybe - I don't know - seventy-five or so.

That said, the protest mp3 was as bad as everyone says. The idea of a few performances where they had to stop Mixmaster Mike to figure out what song it was scares me. But Hello Nasty had something, and hopefully they can hold on to whatever that nebulous thing was for part of one more album. Maybe.

I'd say they're an institution, but most of the Beastie empire has disappeared.

1) That "commercial/commercial" line was supposed to be "rehearsal/commercial". I know they probably should've went back and fixed it, but lay off already.
2) roger adultery can choke on a turd.

That said, I volunteered to take a bullet for Matos on this and his reaction (paraphrased: some variation or another of "??????!!") and this news re: the new album leads me to believe that I am in for a hurtin'. When I can read the phrase "chopped-up sample of the Dead Boys’ 'Sonic Reducer'" yet still come away with nothing but a feel impending doom, there is crapness afoot.

i take it this is a PE reference and if not, this is madonna's "american life" rap part 2.

"We've got a president we didn't elect/ The Kyoto treaty he decided to neglect/ And still the U.S. just wants to flex."

Er, actually the upcoming Shadow/?uestlove/Trent Reznor/Premier/De La Rocha album.

Think of that scene in Back to the Future with Marty in the radiation suit freaking out his dad only instead of metal in the Walkman it will be "Cooky Puss"

Madonna to thread!!

I never got to hear "In A World Gone Mad," but they referenced Zoolander. I dig that.

Also, apparently Britney is all into the Kaballah now. It's the new Scientology!

I tried to, though. Where would we be without wishful thinking?

:)

Beastie Boys rule, and I look forward to this new album.

And just for all you who don't know...Ill communication ruled.

Their lyrics are goofy, but it's a part of their charm.

Thank you for this innovative critical approach.

I took off my academic hat for my last two posts, and I don't regret it. Therefore thou willst not considereth me pretentious.

Many have discarded my texts as sesquipedalian grandliloquence, but I find that all to be a complete load of flapdoodle.

Yea, yea, make your arguments, OMG, DUST BROTHERS, OMG, BEATS ALREADY DONE, yea, yea, if the beats were the only good thing on the album, nobody would be talking about it. The lyrics were much better, the atmosphere still fun and goofy but less, well, frat-boy...and damn, did it smoke.

How many fucking threads have we had about The Black Album?

ha

The Coleman is watching you. He is not pleased. Repent.

hell, most of the time I see the exact opposite of what you speak--whites get away with the shitty rap lyrics, due to the portion of white culture's perceptions that Blacks are just ghetto thugs.

And I KNOW HALF THE PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD OWN SNOW'S "INFORMER".

2. Jay-Z is one of the greatest rappers of all-time. Period. I'd put Reasonable Doubt up against any rap album in the 90's. So why exactly is there still this irrational hate coming from people? The indie kids are hard to get a bead on: one minute, they champion commercial rappers for their pop sensibility, the next, Jay-Z is seen as the figurehead for opulence and lyrical irresponsibility.

3. Paul's Boutique is one of my top albums ever. It's half atmosphere, half beats, mostly. But a lot of the lyrics are incredibly memorable and I'd say I like them for the same reason one might like MF Doom: a seemingly endless barrage of references.

4. yuh uh, tell me some bad black lyrics that get praised and I might be able to wrap my head around your vaguely racist perception of rap music. I have no idea where you're getting this.

rollie, i never said bad lyrics by black rappers get praised, rather they're forgiven.

I hated him from the first moment I saw him, even when I was a youngster who thought MTV was god, eons and eons ago.

Heh.

The set frequently pays homage to the trio’s New York surroundings, best heard on “An Open Letter to NYC.” In front of a chopped-up sample of the Dead Boys’ “Sonic Reducer,” the group finds solace in the city’s post-September 11th resiliency: “Since 911 we’re still livin’ / and lovin’ life we’ve been given / ain’t nothing gonna take that away from us / we’re lookin’ pretty and gritty ’cause in the city we trust.”
I don't think black conscious rappers would escape mockery for those lyrics.

If you mean lyrics being forgiven, you can't tell me there aren't a lot of white rappers that get this very same concession (Beastie Boys, arguably). But on the flip side of what you say, how many times have you seen MC Paul Barman, Northern State and Buck 65 get praised by a white critic for having bad rapping, but lyrics that the critic can relate to? I see it happen a lot, personally. The point I make here is that I like the Beastie Boys but your argument that black rappers get a free pass for shitty lyrics because of a white critical mindstate doesn't change the fact that those lyrics right there are fucking nonsense, no matter who rapped them.

uh, if Jay-Z is mediocre, who is a good rapper? I'd like to see your frame of reference, exactly.

This isn't true either. What do UD rap about? "I have a large chain, women like you, you aren't very good at rapping now are you?". How are these different to the themes of any rapper over the past ten years?

Sidenote: "I Did It Like This" is a really cool song.

This doesn't apply to everybody, even within the said subgroup, but I theorize a good portion of racially prejudiced whites are more likely to hate white rappers because they do not wish a member of their own race to infiltrate what is considered a "lesser culture".

They also excused the "gangster" lyrics in the culture because they view Black culture as 'inferior' and that it was all they were capable of (which of course is a load of bull, but we know that.) But when a white would go "gangster", they would feel he was stooping down to their level, and loathe him even more for that. Just like in the Jim Crow days when a white would be arrested for using a Black bathroom.

I'm fairly sure this isn't what yuh huh was saying, though, because I feel that my theory was a result of a product of white racism, not the reasons yuh huh listed. And it isn't representative of any group as a whole, either.

As for good rappers, some of my favorites:

The Coup (Agree or disagree with his politics or not, Boots Riley makes his point eloquently but not pretentiously, and keeps it entertaining)
Deltron 3030 (despite the great beats, I, despite many's reservations, really enjoy Del The Funky Homosapien).
Dr. Dooom (Kool Keith decides to create an album that's like gore metal in rap, with killer beats, and strangely complex rhythms)
Eric B. and Rakim (judging from the one album I have of theirs, Rakim rules)
Ice Cube (I don't agree with all of his politics, but every album of his was solid up until the mid 90s)
Snoop and Dre's debuts (everything after sucks for both artists, but they had their time in the sun. They didn't appear to take themselves too serious in the early days.)
A Tribe Called Quest (especially The Low End Theory)
Public Enemy (obviously.)
Outkast (they've fallen a lot, but this is a mainstream group I appreciate. Aquemini was one of the best popular rap albums ever.)
N.W.A. (brash, simplistic, yet invigorating and somewhat fresh at the same time. and entertaining.)
I even admittedly like Eminem, especially towards the earlier part of his career (excluding Wego.) Specifically for the humorous aspect of his rap...he takes himself way too seriously nowadays.

I won't profess to be an expert on rap, but I loathe Jay-Z.

This is true. However, you've also got three Garfunkels to balance 2na's Simon.

The Coup has inconsistent production but "Jesus The Pimp" is one of the best songs ever.

Word, Dom. I'll admit, the rest of J5 are dispensible, but they have the odd good sequence here and there, and I always enjoyed the barbershop quartet aesthetic they have going.

I didn't list everybody I liked, just my favorite artists.

I however, do think the 'gangsta' aesthetic is just tired nowadays, and it's just tiring to continually put myself through it. If someone can do it with clever rhymes or in a way that's entertaining, I can enjoy it, but I really don't think Jay-Z falls into that category whatsoever. It should be noted my dislike for Jay-z, as I mentioned, formed when I was a kid whom only listened to gangsta rap.

That doesn't mean I pass it all off. I do enjoy some of Daz Dillinger's stuff, but I dislike Jay-Z immensely. I hate his cadences, his rhymes, and even his overall voice. Obviously the fact that I like Dr. Dooom shows that I'm not bothered by the severity of the content...but it can get old quickly.

back to the Coup, Boots makes The Coup for me, but I generally enjoy the production. Not the best ever, but it's about him more than it is her. (and I haven't been able to track down their early stuff yet, with both mcs.)

OCCASIONALLY somebody can come by and make it interesting (just like death metal lyrics, occasionally those can be rather mundane and generic), but it is also limited by its narrow focus.

And to be honest, I preferred artists like Cube who used violence as an illustration of a dire situation and revolution, rather than just those who were glamourizing the lifestyle.

I generally took most gangsta rap like 80's "party" rap, which is why I appreciated Snoop and Dre's first albums, because they didn't appear to be taking themselves too seriously musically. Now? Both of them suck (and Dre has lost it, as far as producing goes).

I'd probably just rather check out Gravediggaz or Brother Lynch Hung, tho...(whom I admit I have not heard, but should have by now.)

Nas, I know very little about. Of course I hated that stupid "If I Ruled the World", song, but who didn't...

Friends of mine heavily into rap suggest "Illmatic", but I haven't heard it.

kool keith.........surprisingly complex rhythms

And just a point on gangsta rap, I think the overall topic as it's come to be recognized is severely limited in lyrical scope.

I'm not bothered by the severity of the content

Puff Daddy, Ick

Not a fan of Biggie at all, although I didn't hate him...he was just kinda "eh" to me, and was brought down bigtime by the people he constantly hung out with

Snoop and Dre first albums...........everything after sucks for both artists

John Kerry is kind of lame and spineless in real life, but let's look once more who he's running against. Hrm? Yea, that's what I thought.

I'm not bothered by the severity of the content

Yea, because I dislike really shitty rap acts, and like the Beastie Boys, I must be.

Quit trying so hard, seriously.

Kool Keith rules, mostly on the Dr. Dooom project. His rhythmic display is hard to recreate and highly complex, but his lyrics are also funny as shit. It's almost as if Slayer met 90's rap.

I'd rather listen to Keith rap about hacking people apart with chainsaws over a cool beat than a fucking dead fatass butcher 80's songs via his stupid interpolations with pieces of shit like Mase and Puff Daddy alongside him.

Once more for good measure.

Jay-Z sucks.
Notorious B.I.G. is mediocre.
Puff Daddy sucks.

This site is one that seems to think Emma Bunton cds deserve to be listened to.

Woulda been decent had there been no vocals on it.

Dude, you've just alienated the section of this site that would have backed you up on your

Jay-Z sucks.
Notorious B.I.G. is mediocre.

stance. As a troll, I give you 2/10.

(Mr. Hulkington, you're free to go now.)

So essentially....they haven't been aware of post-80s pop culture.

Anybody who thinks Biggie cds are worth more than an impromptu frisbee is the one with the issues, not me.

So I hope you enjoy the Chuck Taylors you have on now....because you'll be seeing them for a while.

Wait...if yr not a indie kid OR a jock, who are you!?

Have fun in that net congestion.

This is like some alt-reality Geir shit.

Questioning the existence of a population outside of indie kids and jocks is not only pointless, it's stupid and dangerous, because they OBVIOUSLY don't exist!

Oh, and here's your Sunny Day Real Estate cd back. I'm sorry I got track marks on it.

http://www.itis.mn.it/fermitutti/interviste/telefilm/willy/carlton.jpg

nuff said. worst song ever.

Um...I think you'd be hardpressed to find a rapper that has less regard for meter, flow, or the beat than Kool Keith! He just blabs over everything! (and I like Kool Keith, but he's way less rhythmic now than he was back in the Ultramagnetic days)...

And I'm not sure what you're talking about at all, especially on the Black Elvis album.

actually that's what it sounded like to me, but they were opening for Tool and I wasn't really paying attention. I bought some kids beer though. They had Slipknot hats.

Slipknot is terrible.

Correct. I learned to play guitar on "the streets!"

Slipknot is terrible

The kids sitting next to me at Tool seem to enjoy them. They said that Slipknot was the only other band besides Tool that was "original". They seemed like nice kids.

as for those kids, well, one day they'll learn their mistake ;)

as far as originality goes, though, I don't find Slipknot that original. They sound a little bit sonically different than some of the other current nu-metal acts but they still draw largely from the same deriviative pool that the rest of them do, just with admittedly some more "obscure" reference points. Like the fact that some of them were actually members of Anal Blast.

As far as the lyrics go, I can see why Slipknot appeals to kids, with the sophomoric, blind rebellion lyrical scope. :)

(leaves you to ponder the possible ramifications of what I just said!)

YOUTH CORRUPTA!

I loved Faith No More and really enjoy Mr. Bungle as well, but have yet to hear much Fantomas (which is cuz I just haven't bought their debut yet), or Tomahawk, or any of his other projects.

And just a point on gangsta rap, I think the overall topic as it's come to be recognized is severely limited in lyrical scope.
OCCASIONALLY somebody can come by and make it interesting

Not only deriviative of other posters, but attempting to make a point that just isn't there.

That's not even one of the songs in the first place. It's an in-between soundbyte.

First off, saying Kool Keith is 'surprisingly complex' is a backhanded compliment, almost as if you go into most black rap expecting shit. This is a bad approach.

Secondly, it appears you have some sort of skewed perspective on sampling. You were a rap-hating metal head in 1998 and only changed your mind in a year ago, when you heard some rap that didn't threaten you and managed to incorporate 'challenging' sounds to a fucking hellscape of nigger music. You hear a couple Puffy singles and decide you like lame ass Kutmaster Kurt beats over Premier "because Premier isn't real hip hop, he samples from the 80's and has drums that don't sound like springs on a trampoline".

Also, you said 'jock rap'. You mentally associate commercial rap with getting your head dumped into the toilets, it seems.

Saying that Kool Keith has a great flow/meter/structure (his whole charm is a lack of structure) and saying Jay-Z 'can't find the beat' is the most backwards, argument-destroying statement ever.

I'd tell you to attribute the Me And My Girlfriend hate to Tupac, seeing as it's his lyric and originally his beat, but you've only been listening to rap for a couple years anyway, so there's really no point in arguing with you.

So what are you going to call me?

To even insinuate race/racism played into my opinions, that is just laughable. It says a lot more about you that you read that when it wasn't inferred.

I said surprisingly "complex" because it was much different than the other stuff of his I heard and because I hadn't heard much of the "spraying" vocal style he had done prior to then, not because I had "low expectations of black rappers", you fucking mental midget.

I won't even get into the rest of your stupid, moronic, ad hominem argument because you seem privy to tell me more about myself without knowing me, which is stupid. Yea, I said some similar things today too as well, but they were jokes and just generic stereotypes, not serious arguments.

You can't win an argument without spin doctoring the other side.

I said "complex rhythms", not meter, you idiot. Can you reproduce Kool Keith's rhythms? I doubt it. They go counter to the beat, but that wasn't unintentional. He can dance on an around it, stay on it, leave it, and do whatever he wants with it. Jay-Z is consistently behind it.

I never said I hated sampling and I like sampling, and again, I'm not exactly sure where your fucking ignorant ass got that, being that, again, HALF THE ARTISTS I LISTEN TO USE SAMPLES. Hello, 80'S RAP THRIVED ON SAMPLING, you fucking dense idiot.

The complete fucking stupidity of if is you also QUITE INCORRECTLY assume I hate Jay-Z because he's COMMERCIAL.

IF SO, THEN WHY DID HALF THE FUCKING ARTISTS I LIST HAPPEN TO BE COMMERCIAL AT ONE TIME IN THEIR LIVES?

You HAVE NO ARGUMENT. I can't believe you don't see the stupidity of your own posts when you have to project your own mental fuckups onto the other side. You have little information to go off of on me, and yet you've already concocted this concrete reason why I think the way I do.

Idiot.

I've heard plenty of Puff Daddy. He is horrible. He is the epitome of what is WRONG with rap.

That should read "I said 'complex rhythms', not linear meter, you idiot."

The fact that he gave me three paragraphs of information on myself based on things I didn't even infer tells me Rollie is the type who needs validation of his own tastes from other people and if somebody dares challenge them, he needs to brand them as "stupid" by attributing some assinine reason for their behavior, so he can distance himself from that person. God forbid he find an intelligent person who doesn't share his tastes, then he might have to question them.

When I said "complex rhythms", you must understand that someone dancing on and off the beat intentionally is something I would consider pretty complex. If you only considered linear things to be complex, then I guess King Crimson would never have been considered progressive rock. Kool Keith is able to take full command of his rhythmic utterances and fall whereever he wants on or around the beat, inserting pauses where they wouldn't normally be, or double timing it where most rappers would do it in regular time. This is intentional, not mere mumbling.

Jay-Z just mumbles behind the beat.

"Me and My Girlfriend" sucks because of Jay-Z too. And "Girls". And "Money Cash Hoes". and "Big Pimping". and "Hard Knock Life". and any song he ever did that I've heard thus far.

I'm not even going to go any further with someone who passes forth Puff Daddy as anything but pure unbridled crap.

I'm not just into "arty" rap, but Rollie has extreme issues with presuming things about people, and that's undeniable.

Anyway, "uh," I think he reacted that way bcuz you came here and started posting about how music that other people love was garbage as if yr rule was law, and now yr trynna flip the script and make it sound like you are the one getting a raw deal. I did this myself when I cam here at first (under a diff name). So just take it easy, don't be so quick to diss people's taste, and try and see if you can understand what it is people like about these artists.

I am quite mystified how you could think Jay-Z has poor rhythmic command though. If anything, he DEFINES what rhythmic command in hip-hop IS.

I'm not even going to go any further with someone who passes forth Puff Daddy as anything but pure unbridled crap.

What's the first thing you learn when writing compositions, in English class, or even making speeches?

Ahem.

"The author's statements are his opinions and this is IMPLIED in the writing."

I do not need to quantify my opinion with IMO, IMHO, or any of that other bullshit, because that's implied.

I had no issue with Rollie at first because his first reply explained SOMEWHAT an argument for his side and why he believed what he did without being so blatantly offended at my opinion.

I was being a little patronizing by mentioning Jay-Z has erratic rhythm, but I also hardly consider him the "master" of rhythmic command by any means. I don't like his lyrics, his style, or anything whatsoever about him. And I don't have some mental fuckup I'm unaware about for believing so.

If Rollie has thin skin and can't argue without building up strawmen, that is his problem, and it makes me laugh, frankly.

See, my last statement was more an angry retort to someone who had just went on an unnecessary diatribe against me for daring to differ with him. It was nothing more than angry provoked response.

My initial statements bashing people in here were stupid, yes, but I'll admit that. However after I settled down, I didn't bash anybody for daring to like Jay-Z, unless for some reason they were to retaliate at me for daring to say he sucked.

No, I have not heard everything of his. Yes, I did have to sit through one of his albums once, however, and it was quite painful.

Someone needs to see the original Game of Death footage STAT

Which may be true, but those collabs seem like the weakest argument in his support. Jay-Z's best tracks are Jay by himself or with someone in that same class/style (Biggie, Foxy Brown, Eminem). The Dead Prez and Kanye tracks are especially bad.

So Jay-Z and Nas seem to admit that the beef started out mostly as a sales motivator - why don't he and Nas sell a zillion units by doing a record together?

I suppose you could make an argument for the songs being just ok, but his verses on them, ESP on the Dead Prez track, are pure fire.

You HAVE NO ARGUMENT.

I hate people who jump on bandwagons.

I don't doubt that many of the rappers grew up in the streets but there are a good portion of them who grew up in middle class neighborhoods and then try to attempt to put forth the fact that they're from the hood. And rappers who haven't had a criminal record in years speaking about a lifestyle they aren't a part of anymore (or in some cases, never were.)

Moreso, mere "emotional honesty" in itself does not make a good album. Tupac was one that at times I felt really was emotionally honest and hit some highs, but I bought his Me Against the World album and I hated it because sonically, it was a poor album. (Way too polished and watered down.)

And it's not exactly like baring one's soul is a definitive trait of gangsta rap. Some of them do it, many of them do not. Many other rap subgenres possess the same trait. I have not passed off the entire gangsta rap genre, either, but I do not like Jay-Z. And don't forget gangsta was the primary type of rap I listened to, really the only kind I knew when I started out.

I'll take 'gangsta' like Ice Cube any day over complete shit like Ludacris, cuz Cube had a focus and used the gangsta imagery to make a point (even if I didn't always agree with it.)

Uh, even though rappers usually rap in the first person, that doesn't mean their lyrics are necessarily about themselves personally.

I wish I didn't have to blatantly spoonfeed you all everything...

Jaysus...Kool Keith sure gets alot of credit for showing up and spewing whatever bullshit comes to mind in the booth!

This thread reminds me that I need to clean out all my Kool Keith-related product besides Critical Beatdown and Dr. Octagon....

The only other thing I might keep is a Ultramag bootleg thing called The Basement Tapes, has some pretty good Ultra stuff on it...I have 4 Horseman and Funk Your Head Up, but I never listen to them....I've never heard (A Much) Better Tomorrow...

Now that I've said that, I'll expect a three page paragraph from you about myself.

As far as rappers rapping in the first person but not truly about themselves, this only serves a purpose if it's done for a real reason, outside of "needing an excuse to write a catchy jam with trendy lyrics." Say, like, at least Dr. Dre's "Lil Ghetto Boy", while not particularly compelling, attempted to do such in a way that showed the baggage that went with the gangsta life.

Not that I think moral stands or political purposes are the only valid time this gimmick can be used. I find artistic nature in someone using a first person narrative to create chilling imagery as well. But I'd hardly argue that half the gangsta rap artists out there anymore do that.

Nonetheless, it can still admittedly be "enjoyable" if it's done with some level of skill or clever crafting. But caricaturic rapping, while it works in rap battle-esque lyrics and brag rap, gets extremely lame in gangsta rap over time, mostly because of the fact that many of the artists seem to take themselves entirely too seriously in the process. If they don't, then it can be fun. Hence why Snoop's debut was fun. You knew he was just bullshitting and fucking around and having a good time.

Snoop Dogg currently rapping about gangsta topics reeks of lameness simply because he is not a gangsta, nor is he a part of that culture anymore. When he raps in the first person, he's not doing it figuratively to make any sort of point, or for any real ingrained artistic purpose, or creating any kind of worthwhile imagery. He's doing it because A. it sells, and B. it's all he knows how to do. He never learned how to rap any other way, and his few attempts at trying weren't so well-received. (That one track on Doggfather)

Boots Riley of The Coup raps of himself in the first person without speaking about himself directly, but it's to illustrate current problems in the communities, and in the country itself. This clearly differs with somebody like Ludacris, whose primary artistic goal is money, endorsements, and fame.

My problem with you is, you seem to be implying there's something wrong with not being a big fan of gangsta rap. That's just stupid. I love metal, but I'm no huge fan of power metal whatsoever. I haven't passed off either genre as a whole, either, I listen to artists in both genres. I haven't dismissed gangsta rap, but I got tired of it rather quickly and wanted to expand my rap collection to include much more eclectic influences.

If you can't see this, then I'm sorry.

How is it? If you didn't know it wasn't autobiographical how would you know? Couldn't you find out tomorrow a rapper you thought authentic was a rich computer salesman for 20 years and you'd still have been affected by his music? Would the way you listened to his record 6 weeks ago be different having discovered this?

Ilustrating current problems in the community doesn't necessarily make you better than someone who wants money and fame....People who wanted to be rich have made tons of the best music ever...

Snoop Dogg currently rapping about gangsta topics reeks of lameness simply because he is not a gangsta, nor is he a part of that culture anymore.

We'll inform Snoop that his Gangsta License has been revoked until further notice....

It doesn't necessarily make you better, no, but I'll have more respect for someone who attempts to do something artistically of important in his music rather than an artist who doesn't. That DOES NOT MEAN I don't accept artists from the latter category, but I'll always show more respect to the former for the attempt. I treat both groups of artists differently when listening to them. Obviously I'm not going to have my egghead hat on while listening to Tha Dogg Pound.

I think Ludacris sucks because his songs are nothing more than jock anthems about nothing, with insidiously horrendous lyrics, crap-assed beats, and stupid anthemic chants. (No, I didn't say anthemic chants were stupid, but his are.)

that said, give a list of some of your favorite rappers who have "wanted to be rich and made some of the best music ever", and let's just see if I agree with you.

dude, you were totally a band camp dude in high school, right?

Truly ironic coming from you, after that long-assed diatribe you posted about me last night which came from little to no information.

That said, it's fairly easy to tell the artists with artistic purposes from the ones who just want to 'entertain'. Both camps have their place, and YES, MERELY BEING ARTISTIC IN INTENT DOES NOT MAKE YOU 'GOOD', AND VICE VERSA.

But I get sick of sellout rappers who are just hopping on bandwagons, doing the same old, same old. If rapping about POGO STICKS was popular, artists like Chingy would be doing it. I equate it to the same thing as bands like the Ataris and Good Charlotte popping up all over the place. And if you're going to keep insinuating that all such categories of rappers are free from criticism, I'm going to have to shake my head.

Well I don't think that's true at all. I don't know what it's like in Europe, but here in the States hip-hop isn't limited to just what's successful. There are loads of underground (but not necessarily "undie") scenes all over the country, filled with artists who might not ever make money.

I disagree with this; it STILL thrives on sampling, and I don't mean underground throwbacks or guys like Kanye, but even Timbaland uses samples pretty heavily. Dre still does! electronic composition of hip-hop beats is a pretty recent development. The south often used sample-based music - UGK, Outkast, etc. The rise of Mannie Fresh and the Neptunes was a change (no value judgement inferred) but sampling is STILL important in hip-hop and has been from the beginning. I mean, Pazz and Jop's number one single for last year was built entirely on a Chi Lites loop!

Anyway, "uh," why are you so concerned with artists being "real"?

dude, you were totally a band camp dude in high school, right?
hahaha ouch.

I think Ludacris is amazing cuz he's a brilliant rapper and a very, very clever one. Why should I have this ridiculous expectation of rappers that I wouldn't have of artists in other genres?

Did Bruce Springsteen really do everything he said in Nebraska!? OF course not. Why would you expect rappers to do everything they rap about?

In any case Uh's post above is idiotic, That said, it's fairly easy to tell the artists with artistic purposes from the ones who just want to 'entertain'. Both camps have their place, and YES, MERELY BEING ARTISTIC IN INTENT DOES NOT MAKE YOU 'GOOD', AND VICE VERSA.

How is it fairly easy? Can you tell us your system? I'm not sure anyone this ignorant has ever posted here.

I never said or implied lack of sales equals quality.

First of all, if your primary motivation for music is money, you're a sellout. Music should always be the first priority. You can enjoy the money that comes with it if you succeed, sure, but it should never be your governing priority as an artist. Yes, you need money to live, survive, save the generic arguments that always go with it, I understand that. But if money is your primary love, and the music is secondary, by all means, go get a job at a fucking bank or something.

That said, the capitalist society makes it hard to stand by that, and I sympathize with that, but it still doesn't mean I have to like your fucking music if you sell out.

There are many artists out there who succeed and sell records and whom aren't just in it to rake in cash and attain fame, but because they love it. And I'm not just talking about artistic rappers. Even good entertainers fall into this category. Again, I'm not exactly sure where you'd get this idea of me since a good portion of the artists I mentioned listening to went platinum again and again and again.

Doesn't even mean sellouts music can't be enjoyable once in a while, I mean, if they write good music, sometimes it doesn't matter what their intentions are. But generally speaking, sellouts are governed by what's in and what's not in, so they lack identity and spirit and passion for waht they do, AND THAT is why their music comes off as uninspired.

Can you name these people whom you personally know are in it to make money????? How do you know Kool Keith or any other artist you like isn't trying to make money and failing? Surely this is even worse!

How can you argue this?! Lots of important rock artists say they made music because they wanted to get laid! Motivation isn't important...its the MUSIC that is important.

You are unaware of your hypocrisy, obviously, saying I couldn't have any indication of an artist's intentions, the night after you basically labeled me (very incorrectly at that) based on what little you knew about me. At least I'm using actual context clues to help me out, whereas you just pulled your information out of your ass.

When 3000 clone-sounding rappers sprout up around one, you tend to get the idea of why they existed. Especially by following the directions their music takes as the scenes change.

As for the band camp comment, I'm not even going there.

Ludacris isn't clever, he's just some moronic, generic, cliched "bitch 'n hooooooo" rapper who can only think of four word phrases to chant for his choruses. His music is pure and utter dreck of the worst variety.

Gangsta rap was fun once. People like Ludacris equate to why I don't enjoy it anymore.

1. Artist attempts to make money in hiphop

2. Artist has moderate success in a genre where other artists are global superstars selling millions of records and driving fancy cars.

3. Artist gets bitter and annoyed and claims he is more authentic, more technically proficient than the big sellers, he claims people are stupid, and he despises the money and big cars he never made, and the rappers who did make these.

4. Fans of less popular artist adopt same ideas.

Of course there is deviancy from this fairly knocked together theory, and who knows who fits it or who doesn't. But it doesn't seem an altogether impossible chain of events.

It is CERTAINLY as reasonable an idea as the suggestion that some big selling rappers are only involved in music to get "fame, endorsements and money".

Indeed if the latter is true, then the above theory must certainly follow.

I know which I'd rather listen to, and which I'd rather be, if forced to choose.

And, as I said in the same post, which you conveniently ignored, sometimes "sellouts" can still make enjoyable music, but it DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE A SELLOUT.

I also said, and you also conveniently ignored, that the reason many sellouts make boring bland music is because they usually are forced into recording the type of stuff that is popular (which in the mainstream, is usually crap), and with money as the primary guiding force, the person's heart and soul isn't in the music, and it can show not only in their performance, but their songwriting as well. Someone who's in it for the money might be a bit lazier with their composition.

Well, Stencil, how can an artist consciously decide whether to make money or not? They don't know what will sell or in what way their ability will be interpreted.

anybody with even just a cursory knowledge of the music industry circa knows that it's not necessarily up to the artist whether they make money or not. And I was speaking initially about artists OUTSIDE of the music industry, of which there are thousands. Do you know how many cable access hip-hop shows there are featuring unknown rappers in Brooklyn ALONE?

And, as I said in the same post, which you conveniently ignored, sometimes "sellouts" can still make enjoyable music, but it DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE A SELLOUT.

OK, so they are a sellout, that sucks. Oh well. But they MAKE ENJOYABLE MUSIC! so why not listen to them? If you get enjoyment for it, what reason can you possibly have not to listen to it?

by your logic, Ronan, nobody in America should listen to techno.

I do not equate success with selling out. But there are definite context clues that can hint to an artist doing so.

I mean, Jewel, for example. Successful for years playing her style of crap-assed watered down girl acoustic rock (but she seemed to really enjoy what she was doing.) Now years pass, trends change, the audience isn't there as much for that type of music anymore, and now she's a watered-down teenybopper dance pop star?

No, I can't know for "sure" why she changed, but I'd be willing to bet with you.

Why is your focus on music always around the money? I prefer to see any quality artist succeed, of course, but I'll prefer the story over an artist who stuck to his convictions and maybe didn't make it large to one who had no convictions and made it big.

Now, if you take this once more to mean I'm saying anybody who succeeds commercially is a sellout and was obviously in it just for the money, or vice versa, you can go fuck yourself, because I'm fairly certain you're not stupid, but you seem to need to be spoon-fed EVERYTHING.

What I'm saying is that generally, sellouts don't write very inspired music.

The fact is, I screwed up his name. So fucking what. I'm bad with names, especially on a board that requires so much fucking scrolling.

Rollie, however, is another idiot I'll deal with as soon as he shows back up.

cinnblout, your post wasn't worth reading whatsoever. I will not take part in this lame circle-jerk.

I confused Rollie with Ronan because the names were close and I scrolled a lot. I didn't get the clue the first few times because so many people respond simulataneously I didn't even get to see them.

And cinnblout, you cunt, my last five posts have had pure backup of my statements. YOu might want to take the blinders off and realize some of your cronies are the ones making the unbacked statements, including mr. Rollie himself, who made the hugest of ad hominems yesterday evening without a shred of information behind it.

But go ahead, keep calling me stupid in your pretentious, inflated language, and continue to dance around whatever "point" it was you thought you made.

After all, you didn't attack any of my points whatsoever, just made a stunning generalization of them.

Well, whoever said *he* thought it was a mistake?

I don't think it's the same, cos techno and undie are not in opposition to each other.

hell, most of the time I see the exact opposite of what you speak--whites get away with the shitty rap lyrics, due to the portion of white culture's perceptions that Blacks are just ghetto thugs.

Ghetto thugs that mumble and talk about vacuous things like money, women, drugs, and guns? uh (and I'm referring to the poster and not just pausing dramatically here), I think you need to differentiate between not liking an artist and them sucking. You say someone sucks when you can back it up by tearing apart what they've done or otherwise have a leg to stand on. So when you hop on to ilm and start mentioning that Jay-Z sucks when he obviously has a fanbase here, you're asking for it. Nevermind the fact that there are a lot of Jay detractors running around too, because they're not going to jump to your defense when you toss off reasons why something "sucks" without saying why.

I mean, it's easy to counter "man, these Beastie Boys rhymes suck" with "yeah, but a lot of their previous rhymes were cheesy but fun because of the context and beats. go check out body movin!" Likewise, if Jay-Z is a mumbler, isn't Rakim just an over-enunciator with a monotone? If Puffy (P. Diddy... piddy?) is only in it for money, then why has Kool Keith screwed people over and actually rapped about making money? cinniblount was making this point.. dismissing opinions without reinforcing your counterpoint.

It's kind of a sign of maturity to realize that opinions vary and that other points of view may carry as much weight as your own. Showing up on ilm and pulling out some opinions that get a lot of ink (golden age of rap, age of noble gangsta rap, dismissal of commercial radio rap based on commercialism/sexism/jock value, claiming something is better on "technical" merit) isn't going to impress. We've seen it before, many many times.

There is a clear cut difference between something you deem "suck-worthy" and something that you recognize is just not your cup of tea.

However, Jay-Z doesn't fall into the latter category, for me. I think he is a below average artist, and I don't care how many people on this site "love" him.

I'll take Ghostface or Ice Cube or Big Boi any day. Kool Keith too!

I know which I'd rather listen to, and which I'd rather be, if forced to choose.

I assume you mean the latter, but why?
And I assume you prefer, say, Moby and Crystal Method to other not-quite-as-successful techno artists?

I'd like to know why it's messed up for me to imply that you had a racist connotation saying Kool Keith 'surprisingly complex' when you open the thread up telling us about some white critic slave mentality to qualify writers supporting black thug acts. Hypocrisy #1.

Regarding your OPINION about Jay-Z: the fact that you base said opinion on the songs he created almost completely to make money is an unfair way to judge an artist. It's a lot like your opinion that Kool Keith is the epitome of rhythm without hearing is earlier better work or his later terrible work. Simple enough, you can say you don't like Jay-Z for whatever reasons of personal preference but you cannot deny Jay-Z's talent, especially on the following songs:

"Regrets"
"Can I Live"
"Dead Presidents II"
"D'Evils"

It's the same for Kool Keith too; I wouldn't take someone who says he has no talent as seriously as someone who has heard "Poppa Large (East Coast Mix)", "Leave Me Alone (Peanut Butter Wolf Remix)" or "Blue Flowers", you know?

There's a reason why Biggie and Jay-Z get emulated by every rapper in New York and it isn't just because they sold records. It's because they saw a workable format for displaying their frustration and braggadocio in the vocal styles of those two.

Finally, sellouts don't typically make good music? Are you saying anyone who has ever made music on a major label is incapable of making inspiring music? How can I take something like that as part of an argument? It's just wrong.

Where did I champion Puff Daddy? I'm not quite a fan.

Saying Jay-Z sounds like he's "behind the beat" exposes you completely. Your frame of reference is obviously the one Kool Keith album you have heard, so considering your rap paragon is a guy whose charm is being unflinchingly offbeat (yes, he is), it makes perfect sense to think that Jay-Z is somehow STRUGGLING to catch up to the production. I can fathom someone just not liking Jay-Z, whatever, right? But he's considered one of the best rappers alive by a large base of people. I'd suggest you actually detail things that are wrong with Jay-Z's abilities, other than content. That would be an argument, as opposed to whatever you have been doing.

Also, talking about rap boards earlier, see what kind of response you get at http://www.philaflava.com/forum with this argument. You won't be able to handle the amount of picture-based insults.

See how I didn't swear once? This is how grown-ups have discussions.

And while his case for Jay-Z rapping about nothing is dependent on what songs he's heard, he doesn't come off uninformed or ignorant. Watch what he does and try for yourself.

uh went out of his way to point out that this was not what he was saying.

Alex, do you hate me?

uh merely mentioned this, didn't say he abscribed to it. and even if he did, i don't see how that opens him up to being labelled a racist.

I don't see how this is less substantive than other what other rappers have to offer. He may be a little less story-oriented than say, Ice Cube, or even Biggie, but I think it's pretty clear from song to song what he is rapping ABOUT. So I guess I just don't get what you mean when you say it's "devoid of content."

That being said, yes a lot of rap is about people telling us how great they are. But the devil's in the details - it's HOW and WHY they think they're great that make a rapper interesting. As far as I can tell Jay-Z pretty much restricts himself to endorsing products and proclaiming his mic skills = snoresville. The product endorsement act in particular I find really irritating. Gimme some off-the-wall imagery, some twisted metaphors, eye-popping confessionalism, a decent narrative, ANYTHING! Throw me a bone here! Instead it's "yeah I'm the J to the H-O-V-A fuck all y'all I'm dressed in Gucci drinking Moet etc". I don't need that shit.

yuh huh might mean something along the lines of a theory I've had about the "white racist" for years.

This doesn't apply to everybody, even within the said subgroup, but I theorize a good portion of racially prejudiced whites are more likely to hate white rappers because they do not wish a member of their own race to infiltrate what is considered a "lesser culture".

They also excused the "gangster" lyrics in the culture because they view Black culture as 'inferior' and that it was all they were capable of (which of course is a load of bull, but we know that.) But when a white would go "gangster", they would feel he was stooping down to their level, and loathe him even more for that. Just like in the Jim Crow days when a white would be arrested for using a Black bathroom.

Although he was applying it to someone else's mentality, he made a rather huge assumption and states at the beginning that he's had this theory for years.

I don't know you Rollie, but you do throw a lot of smug bullshit around that I find pretty hard to take.

I find that I come off like a real asshole when I'm online. I get this a lot, especially with people who don't really know me. It's not my intention, I know that. I just happen to state my opinions in a certain way. I can tell you that I don't actually come off this way in real life.

Shakey, listen to the songs I said in the other post.

("Cuz I Kill at Will, like solid water dude/y'all niggaz don't get it/Kill at will, solid water - ICE CUBE")

Classic.

Shoulda went triple.

Having heard "The Black Album", I challenge that.

It so ain't.

I'd almost like to believe that a conservative group put out that press release and specifically chose the worst rhymes to promote in order to dilute the potential political impact of this album.

Quite.

x-post!

any favorite uh quotes? heres mine:

I won't even get into the rest of your stupid, moronic, ad hominem argument

Hopefully he comes back so the poochy picture can be reposted. Damn that was satisfying.

People who loved "Intergalactic" and "Alive" will probably love it.

This thread is fun to read because of the antogonist/protagonist "uh". Reading many of these posts it comes off as Valley Girl speak..."uh, I totally don't understand what you're talking about, uh, like, uh, what the hell?".

pssst...Beastie Boys. The trade center isn't there anymore.

Beastie Boys To the 5 Boroughs (Capitol)
These are some things that have changed since the Beastie Boys' last studio album, Hello Nasty, was released in 1998: There is no Grand Royal Records; the trio shut down its eccentric custom label in 2001. Adam "MCA" Yauch's deep, rough growl is now an even deeper, stranger weapon of taunt; he now fires boasts and insults like a hip-hop Tom Waits, in a smoker's-cough harangue scoured free of melody.

And there is no World Trade Center. This may seem like a weird time -- wartime, everywhere you look -- for Yauch, Adam "AdRock" Horovitz and Michael "Mike D" Diamond, all on the cusp of forty, to make a record that in its gibes and hyperspeed is the closest they have come to their old-school fight and comedy on 1986's Licensed to Ill. Actually, it is the perfect time. To the 5 Boroughs is an exciting, astonishing balancing act: fast, funny and sobering. "I bring the shit that's beyond bizarre," Horovitz asserts against the quick hop and spears of sampled brass in "Ch-Check It Out." "Like Miss Piggy," he adds, apropos of nothing, to which all three respond in idiot falsetto, "Who moi?" In "Right Right Now Now," the Beasties lament Columbine and call for "more gun controlling" over tense rolls of Muzak harpsichord, then twist the chorus of their biggest hit into a free-speech cheer, retrieving Public Enemy's inversion from 1988: "We're gonna party for the right to fight." The Beasties pour the Pink Champale and Riunite here, but they're not drinking to forget. They turn the dis on "a president we didn't elect" in "It Takes Time to Build": "Is the U.S. gonna keep breaking necks/ Maybe it's time that we impeach Tex."

It's risky business -- odd, at first, to hear social protest in Horovitz's cutting nyah-nyah-nyah or, in "All Lifestyles," Diamond's high, shrill yelp: "Walking down the block, you say, 'Yo, D! When you coming out with the new CD that spreads love in society?'" But To the 5 Boroughs is a full-service gas. The Beasties produced the album themselves, spiking stark, muscular beats with incongruous cool, like the Brazilian rain-forest buzz of the berimbau in "Hey Fuck You." You also get an encyclopedic torrent of cheesy-TV citations, as if the Beasties have spent the last six years sucking up nothing but Nick at Nite. And two decades after turning from hardcore punk to homeboy jollies, the Beasties are still the best rap band in the biz -- three voices swinging like a jazz trio, racing like Bad Brains -- and they don't have big patience for the gold-plated phooey currently passing for gangsta. "I know you're sitting pretty in the Hampty-Hamps/Posing like you're rolling with the camp," Yauch croaks in "Shazam!" That photo of P. Diddy on a jet ski, in his polar-bear beach robe, comes to mind.

More than anything, To the 5 Boroughs is the Beasties' valentine to the city where they, and rap, were born. It is a brash, passionate toast to what we lost on 9/11 (in the cover illustration, the Twin Towers are still standing) and what survives: in memory, on the ground. The raps are packed with local cuisine (Blimpies, Murray's Cheese Shop on Bleecker Street) and nostalgia (Yauch: "Used to ride the D to beat the morning bell at Edward R. Murrow [High School] out on Avenue L"). And in "An Open Letter to NYC," the Beasties celebrate the city "that blends and mends and tests," mixing prayer and pride with sampled shots of 50 Cent, RZA and Nas over the killer riff from the Dead Boys' "Sonic Reducer." It's a dark whirl, but never maudlin: "2 towers down but you're still in the game," Diamond crows, a line that also has everything to do with the state and fate of the nation. The Beasties are New York from head to heel, but they've made To the 5 Boroughs for the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan and Staten Island in all of us. (DAVID FRICKE)

What hack writes a last line like that, btw?

(u always on my bozack, Raggett!)

http://www.ladyalchemy.com/images/Road/SharonOsbourne.jpg

I NEED TO SEE THIS PHOTO! I NEED TO SEE THIS PHOTO!

There are few things in life I regret more.

http://thewvsr.com/images/jetski.jpg

To the Editor:

I had the great pleasure of reading your unsolicited critique of the "Ch-Check It Out" music video ["Licensed to Stand Still" by Stephanie Zacharek, May 16]. It took some time to get to me, as it had to be curried (sp?) on goatback through the fjords of my homeland, the Oppenzell. And in the process the goat died, and then I had to give the mailman one of my goats, so remember, you owe me a goat.

Anyway, that video is big time good. Pauline Kael is spinning over in her grave. My film technique is clearly too advanced for your small way of looking at it. Someday you will be yelling out to the streets below your windows: "He is the chancellor of all the big ones! I love his genius! I am the most his close personal friend!"

You journalists are ever lying. I remember people like you laughing at me at the university, and now they are all eating off of my feet. You make this same unkind laughter at the Jerry Lewis for his Das Verruckte Professor and now look, he is respected as a French-clown. And you so-call New York Times smarties are giving love to the U2 because they are dressing as the Amish and singing songs about America? (Must I dress as the Leprechaun to sing songs about Ireland so that you will love me? You know the point I make here is true!)

In concluding, "Ch-Check It Out" is the always best music film and you will be realizing this too far passing. As ever I now wrap my dead goat carcass in the soiled New York Times — and you are not forgetting to buy me a replacement! Please send that one more goat to me now!
NATHANIAL HORNBLOWER
Manhattan
The writer, whose real name is Adam Yauch, is a member of the Beastie Boys. He directs their music videos under the pseudonym Nathanial Hornblower.

hahahaha!!!

Also, any track that namechecks Bleeker Bob's is aight with me. Tho', it should be noted, Bleeker Bob's sucks.

yeah, that's why I referenced the Basement Tapes. To The 5 Boroughs just seems like an album that everybody's going to either overrate or underrate.

I think the Streets album has LOADS more focus and detail, though. It totally sounds like he's trying to write his own novel!

This is similar to my response to Anthony's entire ouevre (some of which I like a lot), though his points about writing are well-taken.

Also, any track that namechecks Bleeker Bob's is aight with me. Tho', it should be noted, Bleeker Bob's sucks.

haha

Beasties are better rappers

I'm tempted to argue you should use the past tense. Skinner's delivery may be more actorly than musical, but he's a hell of a lot more confident about it now than they are.

He made three!*

They parted with him for the same reason they parted with Dr Dre before him, and with DJ Double R before that: he sucked, and they found someone better.

Or more particularly, they wanted a collaborator who could bring something to the group in the studio (Hurra's only songwriting contribution was saying "[Beastie's name] come and rock the sure shot" down the phone once, when they were stuck for a hook, and he only ever played on one track) and especially on stage: ie could make the hip-hop portions of the show as 100% live and improv-capable as the thrash and funk sections, as opposed to scratching samples over a DAT tape.

*One on Fellaheen [with a revised (worse) version on Grand Royal the following year], one on Wiiija, one on TVT. He couldn't even get signed in the same country twice...

ahem. http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd700/d733/d733694801s.jpg

What does this mean?

xxxpost

(Huh haha)

Anthony you need to bust rhymes more often

Yes. Begs2differ too.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102704/

Has a white writer ever rapped about an album made by a black artist? Or are they less prone to drop mad science in that scenario?

thats sad.. you figure they emerge from their rest home every 100 years to release a record they could do better.

my favorite part about that link is that cnn offers 3 separate news alert links for adam yauch, mike diamond and adam horovitz.

"'cause George W's got nothing on me / we've got to take the power from he."

hot sauce committee pt 2 really was better

the dj green lantern mix that was released (officially? unofficially? whatever) around the time of this one was really good!

looks like the green lantern mix was 2006 so.. almost two years later :/

still, pretty cool

Oh hot sauce def was a better alb, agree

I somehow don't have that mix in my library but found it

makes Triple Trouble sound good!

and So Whatcha Want played over from the beat and vocal injections from Nas's Hate Me Now is ridiculous

Ooh...i gotta check that

Have we polled dated anti-Bush albums?

tbf the albums might be dated -- and really only the one from this titled thread falls in that bucket unless you count the instrumental/jam one -- but the only sentiment that dated is that they should have been much harder on Bush

I don't know, the Eminem anti-Bush track was almost as bad as Iraq.

Which one, "Mosh"?

In A World Gone Mad was their worst record ever but it was only a single, not a whole anti-Bush album

for some reason all the anti-Bush songs were fucking terrible that I can think of (barring the DJ Shadow/Zach de la Rocha single which I still play from time to time)

that was the most painful part of the era for me, the fucking terrible protest music, it soured me on protest music entirely for a while

the anti-trump protest music is far more relatable for me, less righteous white-boy indignation and more "fucking hell, look, i don't know how but we'll get through this, ok?"

At the time, it was just nice to see people opposing Bush, because in Florida circa 2003-2004, you were usually subject to verbal abuse for criticizing Bush or the Iraq war.

Also Bad Religion's "The Empire Strikes First" is great

Horovitz pretty bluntly admits in the BB Book that this album sucks.

xxxp - yeah, "Mosh"

Hail to the Thief is probably the most embarrassing artistic response on title alone even if the music isn't as bad as some.

On most rap boards, you'd be considered the troll right now.

― uh, Monday, April 26, 2004 4:23 PM bookmarkflaglink
on most rap boards people wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, April 26, 2004 4:25 PM bookmarkflaglink

lol