Peter Gabriel-era Genesis: Classic or Dud? Search and Destroy

All of Trespass, Foxtrot and the Lamb are essential, though.

(Phillips was an original member of Genesis, if you didn't know that.)

The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway is fucking horrible! "Back In NYC" is kinda neat though.

I don't know what I was on about for. I've been listening to Lamb near-daily. A little surprisingly, it seems to owe more to Eno/Kraftwerk/Glass than to the guitar pomp of stuff like "The Musical Box." How was this received at the time?

"for" = "before"

so good

When is the next batch of remasters? Anybody knows? And will it be the most recent batch or the oldest batch?

i picked up the 3rd album on vinyl recently (with the melted face). took me a few listens but i'm really digging it. love the drum sound, and i like how all the instruments have a very short decay on the reverb so the noises sound like they're coming from inside your head. "no self control" is amazing.

very cool lyrics and vocals as well.

sundar, seriously check out the live lamb concert from the archives box. they overdubbed the shit out of it. even peter came in and did stuff! it really really kicks ass (i can ysi if u want)

sorry i just realised you're talking about genesis, oops

yeah, reading the thread before posting to it usually helps.

thanks for the advice.

seconding chaki regarding the live version of Lamb. drums and vocals are much more over the top.

When is the next batch of remasters? Anybody knows? And will it be the most recent batch or the oldest batch?

The next batch, supposedly due in September, will be 1983-1997. The Gabriel stuff is supposed to be out late '07/early '08. I wonder if this isn't because Gabriel has been slow to approve the mixes or participate in the DVD interviews — otherwise you'd think the early albums would come first....

May have to do with his participation in the DVD interviews. I guess Ray Wilson was more willing.

Not quite the answer I wanted. On the other hand, "Genesis" and "Invisible Touch" badly need remastering, probably more so than any other Genesis albums.

the mixes on the 77-81 box sound terrible though, just a warning (well, trick sounds terrible, the others are tolerable, and the bonus disc sounds good). they need to do better with the gabriel era stuff.

I've been living with the 76-82 boxset for a couple of weeks now and I don't think the mixes are that bad, although I agree that the Trick remix is the worst.

But, if you are a Genesis fan, you have to have the box set if only for the extras on the DVDs, which have some essential stuff on there. It really whets the appetite for the 68-75 box, which could contain the Jackson tapes from 1970, the Belgian TV footage from 71 (or was it 72?)and the superb footage from Shepperton studios in 73.

I like the new mixes just nicely. "Trick" is an aquired taste, I guess, personally I find it sounded excellently already on the first version from the 80s, but then, I like treble.

it's too trebly and the vocals are mixed way too high, particularly on "dance with a volcano". bah, annoying, I don't need to hear that much phil collins. the quality of the stuff on the dvds is kind of crap too; there are torrents of these things I downloaded two years ago that look as good/better.

There is no such thing as "vocals mixed way too high" IMO. The vocals carry the melody, they are supposed to be mixed high.

I've argued about this with you before, Geir. The original mix of Trick just sounds really flat and dead to me. It totally fails to do the songs justice.

xpost

Akm - I agree that the quality of the extras on the DVDs could be better, but at least they have been giving an official release.

It is annoying that better quality torrents of the same material are still out there (if you can get anyone to seed them). It's also annoying that fans have put huge amounts of time and effort to clean up some of this footage and the band couldn't be bothered.

As for the mixes, I am looking forward to a much cleaner Foxtrot. I didn't get the remaster from 94(?) so I can't compare with that, but the original vinyl and the first CD release were far too murky.

The 'wishful thinking' rumour why the Gabriel era set is last to be released centres around the band would announcing a reunion of the classic line up for a tour in 2008.

possibly, but i kind of doubt it. gabriel is touring this summer on his own though playing a diverse set (old music back to pg1) so maybe that's a warmup for him

Gabriel tour is supposed to be because he agreed to play WOMAD and needed the warm up!

If Gabriel is touring, that means it is actually more likely they'll get together. The prospect of travelling around the world touring again was the main reason why Gabriel declined in the first place.

Another thing is, there would be no point in a Genesis reunion with Peter unless Steve Hackett will also participate.

Hackett agreed to participate (apparently he is on very good terms with the band now)with or without Gabriel. The band decided that it would be better if the three man Genesis toured without Hackett this time.

The rumour was that they wanted to test the water first with the band that the majority of younger gig goers would remember.

However, remember that '6 of the best' in 82 did not include Hackett except for the last encore; the majority of the gig was Gabriel, Collins, Banks, Rutherford, Stuermer and Thompson. No reason why that couldn't happen again, but I would feel cheated if Hackett wasn't included.

hey supa fans i posted a pretty killer soundboard boot of the lamb tour on my blog

http://chakicory.blogspot.com/

Yes I'm going to say it on multiple threads because Selling England By The Pound has sent this anglophile into realms of bliss heretofore untold.

yes it's great. Also, box set out next month.

I mean doesn't it just beat the shit out of Yes and Fairport Convention and anything else like that you care to name? Now doesn't it whip Pink Floyd's ass? Come on!!!!

Fucking Jethro Tull can go suck it.

OK, so they did all these CD+DVD of all the Genesis album after The Lamb, and it seems all those early Gabriel-era Genesis CDs (aside from From Genesis To Revelation) are OOP?

I'm assuming the CD+DVD reissues of the earlier albums ('70 to '74) are coming soon?

yeah that's the box set I just mentioned

note that the new versions have been remixed and remastered and lots of people hate how they sound; I don't think the last cd versions of these sounded very good though either so it's kind of six of one etc to me.

Selling England By The Pound is better than Can. I'm serious. I'm just stating a personal opinion, here.

The remasters are surely controversial, due to their exaggerated compression (hey folks! Prog is about DYNAMICS!).

But the only remixing that has been done is the 5:1 versions. And that is a kind of interesting thing after all.

no, the non 5.1 versions were remixed as well.

No really, I'm sorry, but Selling England By The Pound has taken my musical heart and thrown away the key.

BEST THING EVER

as far as the 'geneses to revelation' and earlier music goes, I'm not really a fan. Silver Song and A Child's Songs are the exceptions. I suppose I need to give all their earliest material a try again but I remember thinking those two songs being the best early genesis, and the rest of the stuff was merely OK.

But everything after 'genesis to revelation' to perhaps 'wind & wuthering' are definitely worth purchasing. I was playing Trespass today during a poker game. Great stuff. Selling England By The Pound still ranks in my top 3 albums of all time and The Lamb Lies down ranks in my top 10.

Thanks Lorax.

Do you know your name sounds like a laundry detergent?

Polling England By The Pound

A few words in the reissues now that they are complete.

I would say it seems they have caught up with some of the criticism regarding compression. Listening to the reissued early albums I actually had to turn the volume of my portable CD player up from the volume I normally use, which is obviously a good sign.

The idea of remixing is controversial indeed, but as long as they keep the old tracks and don't add anything new, I guess it's a question of taste. Personally I would say some of the early material was a bit badly mixed and somewhat benefits from the slight treatment. But it's a matter of how purist you are, really.

Another beef I have with the new bunch is the documentaries. When the reissue program started, Depeche Mode were just about finishing theirs, and I was used to some absolutely wonderful documentaries. The reissues interviews on the Genesis DVDs are both long and interesting, but still seem a bit low budget when compared to the Depeche Mode ones. Like, why have they just filmed the guys sitting in the studio and no otherwise footage apart from filming the actual album sleeves? Where are clips from tourst they were performing at the time, clips from videos, footage from the studio recordings at the time, other stuff that might have been put into the documentaries for some variation? There may not be a lot from the first years, but I am sure there are lots that could have been used on the more recent ones.
And, also, it is nice to hear the band members take on the process behind the albums, including tour members like Daryl Stuermer even. But other people were involved in those recordings besides Genesis, and why haven't they interviewed them? Like, it would have been interesting to get Tony Stratton Smith's take on a lot of what has happened. And people like David Henschel, Hugh Padgam, John Anthony and John Burns must have something to add about the recording process behind the various albums, surely? Not to mention it would be fun to see what huge Genesis fans and other musicians from the same era would be thinking abou the albums (Fish, surely... And maybe some central Yes or ELP members - Bill Bruford was even a touring drummer with Genesis).

So the documentaries leave a little to be desired. They could have been so much better. But I kinda like the entire thing anyway.

http://leaveitopen.com/petergabriel/PeterGabriel1974.jpg

You know he's cool as shit. Don't you? No. Because he's COOLER THAN THAT.

http://tubulamarok.free.fr/genesis/peter-gabriel.jpg

They should change the sound of this part of Back in N.Y.C. They can keep the lyrics but just change that part all together and then you would have a perfect song. Seriously Peter what were you thinking.

"As I cuddled the porcupine
He said I had none to blame, but me.
Held my heart, deep in hair,
Time to shave, shave it off, it off.
No time for romantic escape,
When your fluffy heart is ready for rape. No!
Off we go."

Dunno if Peter Gabriel is the right address here. While he wrote all of the lyrics for "The Lamb", he was so busy with the story thing that he hardly contributed to the music at all. Surely some of the songs are his ("Counting Out Time") but mostly "The Lamb" was Gabriel doing the lyrics and concept and the others doing everything that had to do with the actual music.

And the others (Phil and Tony esp) were a little peeved about that weren't they? They had some long passages they'd meant to be instrumental on Lamb but Peter filled them with endless lyrics.

I do like "In the Cage" and "Carpet Crawlers" very much. Its a great box set: some of the live concerts included are awesome (if a little lolworthy with badly done bluescreen backgrounds (ahhh, 70s tv).

BACK IN NYC yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
Jeff Buckley goddamnit

Have never been able to get into Selling, Lamb or Trick. No particular reason, although that PIIIIIIC-NIC song is enough to turn me off that entire album.

CAUSE I DON'T CARE WHO I HIT

AND I'M NOT FULL OF SHIT

FILLED UP HIGH WITH GASOLINE

YOU CAN TELL BY THE NIGHT FIRES

WHERE RAEL HAS BEEN, HAS BEEN

TIME TO SHAVE IT OFF SHAVE IT OFF

You don't believe I'm real.

Your protection

strongest meat
laid them down in coloured sheets
and who needs illusion
of love and affection
your mainline connection

AS I CUDDLED THE PORCUPINE HE SAID I HAD NONE TO BLAME BUT ME

Your fluffy heart is ready for rape.

Now I'm too scared to try.

Who said they didn't like Peter Gabriel?

I'm gonna kick that guy in the balls. Some idiot early 20's dude who doesn't know shit. He doesn't know shit!!!!

He said Gabriel was "an embarassing yuppie tool" for fuck's sake. GET ONE LIFE

LOL. Bimble playing the outraged Googler. :)

Well, anyways, Peter Gabriel is a genius, Tony Banks is a genius. Steve Hackett is a genius. Even Phil Collins is a genius. As a drummer, anyway ;)

I only see one comment about the remastering on these...

Is the mastering just okay - or they really do something special?

Also, any comments on the 5.1 audio?

The fact that they are remixed, and not just remastered, will remain controversial.

I think the first five sound OK. Not so extremely compressed as particularly the mid period ones were. As for the 5:1 mixes, they are less "in your face" than some other 5:1 mixes tend to be, but "The Lamb" sounds great in surround.

hmm...i like the delicate rolling soundscapes of carpet crawlers, lamia and anyway. when it gets heavy its real heavy. for maximum heaviness check out the live concert in the Archive 1 box.

http://open.spotify.com/track/0l5LFkSnTv5ZY1vZAZKGL6

Was going to see Peter Gabriel Thursday, mostly for the return of his awesome "So" band, but then something came up and I can't go. Did occur to me that Gabriel has always been something of a cult act, and in many ways he's reverted to cult act once again post-'So." But ironically, it's only because of "So" that he can still play arenas.

One of the things I like about this version is that it uses the pop song productions of So and Us--the draggy beats followed by soaring choruses-- to re-contextualize something so completely from the prog sphere.

After Fly from Here, the idea of a reunited Genesis produced by Trevor Horn for a whole album is appealing.

Phil Collins can't play any more though, due to muscular issues.

Maybe they could get Dave Grohl to dep for him.

Bad sub. Grohl is all muscle, no finesse. You know they'd get some choad like Dream Theatre guy.

Curiously, it's easy to pick drummers who would make great Crimson additions, but Genesis? It's tougher.

Bruford did play with then I believe around '76 or so.

Would add that what makes this version of Carpet Crawlers more interesting to me than, say, a solo Peter Gabriel song, is that the lyrical conceits were just so much more bonkers when he was in Genesis and immediately after. Instead of heavy-handed references to medical experiments, junior high politics and therapeutic analyses of his marriage and Lee Harvey Oswald, references abound to salamanders being "trapped in birth," kryptonite, "wise and foolish virgins" and such (tho I think they axed the verse with the lyrics about congealing liquid seeping out).

It's also hilarious how such a brief appearance by Phil threatens to destroy the whole thing.

I actually prefer the Phil-sung version on Seconds Out to the version on the Lamb.

chester thompson

xps

I actually prefer the Phil-sung version on Seconds Out to the version on the Lamb.

Yeah, that's where I first heard it as well. Great version.

chester thompson

Wikipedia:

Bruford also spent six months touring with Genesis in 1976, recordings from which appeared on the Genesis live albums Seconds Out and Three Sides Live, as well as the theatrical release of Genesis: In Concert. Bruford, who was rehearsing (as guest percussionist) with Phil Collins' side project Brand X, suggested drumming while Collins sang until they found a permanent live drummer (this would be Chester Thompson, in 1977). Collins, a big Bruford fan going back to his early Genesis days, approved of the suggestion.

I remember reading that parts of Supper's Ready were based on hallucinations that PG actually had. Between that and pretty much everything on The Lamb it's actually kind of funny in retrospect that he became this big VH1 star (though he did distance himself from all that pretty quickly)

I love the fact that, after PG left, Genesis auditioned 400 singers before going, "Nuts to this, let's just use Phil."

xp yeah i meant chester could totally sub for phil should pg-era genesis reform

I don't think so. He's a proficient sub, but not a good sub. Whenever Phil heads back to join him on drums the difference is noticeable. Thompson (who also played in Weather Report and with Zappa!) seems to have had the life beaten out of him by being the full-time Genesis and solo Phil guy. I guess he lives in Nashville now, and my friend said that as a session guy he can't get arrested in that town.

seriously? love his drumming on, say, three sides live (which i guess ain't pg-era genesis material)

Not really, no. Phil has such a distinctive feel, and besides, I can't imagine a PG era Genesis reunion with no Phil. Though they could get the guy from the Musical Box, who is left handed and bald, too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHd2mjW7210&feature=relmfu

Why have they got a bald Tony Banks these days, then?

That's just another Phil Collins also playing keyboards.

I actually prefer the Phil-sung version on /Seconds Out/ to the version on the Lamb.

Not sure I ever noticed what a massive mellotron intro Tony Banks stuffs onto the beginning of "Watcher of the Skies." Almost Crimson-esque.

really? that's the most attention-grabbing intro to a Genesis album. "Watcher" is such a great song but that first minute or so is really something

Out of all the heavy users of the Mellotron, Banks both perfected his particular sound on it as well as its recording--even on Genesis records that sound produced oddly or badly, his Tron never sounds less than epic and huge.

really? that's the most attention-grabbing intro to a Genesis album. "Watcher" is such a great song but that first minute or so is really something

New remaster of “The Lamb…” a treat on headphones this Sunday morning.

commented on the lamb thread the other day. airpod listening is def the best way to experience this version (unless you have a fancy surround system), lots of little bits and changes that are exciting to hear. live runthrough is mostly the same as the ARchive version but with some differences in the mix and some different choices re: vocal overdubs (the absolute worst one, in Back in NYC, "You cannot buy protection from the way that I feel", which dropped an entire octive, has been excised). I'm passing on buying this; if they'd included more high-quality demos and alternate takes, I would have pounced on it.

cosign. walked in the pnw misty forest urban park and emerged to the beach around 32 doors, woozy sublimity. heard a few bits i’d never noticed before previously buried in the mix, but more importantly i think i can definitively say phil’s purdie shuffle style triple feel hi hat work is superior to songs like babylon sisters because it comes and goes as a song needs it rather than just laying a tasty soul-jazz propulsion. and gabriel’s aggressive tone on songs like back in nyc… shame he abandoned that, it’s just one of the best rock vocal styles there is.

dunno that he abandoned it, I think he kept with it through IV/Security, and then age tempered him.

Yeah I think PG2 has some aggressive vocals

i’m struggling to think of a song from the first four solo records that has that intense throaty overdiven style, he’s aggressively yelpy instead and also more varied from song to song. maybe and through the wire calls back to it on the chorus.

He screams a lot in this 1978 show but mercifully treats his voice with more respect in the subsequent years.

He screams a lot in this 1978 show but mercifully treats his voice with more respect in the subsequent years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amxDkP_0gxs