Why do people on ILX like bad 80's throwbacks SO MUCH?????

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

because they suck and are old and stupid and dumb and boring

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:27 (twenty years ago)

I dunno. I'd rather listen to bad 80s music than the bad 00s music "inspired" by it.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:30 (twenty years ago)

I take extreme joy in listening to both, h. Why? I've no shame.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:31 (twenty years ago)

Franz Ferdinand fans are all old and ugly or 15 year old girls.

― PEDOS (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:31 (twenty years ago)

what do you mean by bad 80s throwbacks?

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:31 (twenty years ago)

because bad '80s throwbacks (and bad '70s throwbacks, and bad '60s throwbacks) are still better than 95 percent of the horseshit that came out in the '90s, maybe??

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 17:32 (twenty years ago)

From: Katie
Date: Mar 11, 2004 08:49 PM
Subject: Franz Ferdinand!! (soo rockin!)
Body: Ok, so my good friend turned me onto this new band Franz Ferdinand. And may I say... freakin' AWESOME!! It has been so long since I heard songs sooo good and sooo rockin' that I have to blast it and actually jump around and dance and shake my booty! Seriously, this band rocks, and I mean that cool old fashioned funk edgey raw type of rock, with the catchiest hooks, but pure music all the way thru. An album that will make your head bop and foot tap involuntarily, for sure. Everyone should run out and buy it NOW!! You will NOT be dissappointed!

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:33 (twenty years ago)

IT IS 2004 NOT 1994

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:33 (twenty years ago)

Jon, might I suggest you calm down a touch?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:33 (twenty years ago)

Wait, this is about Franz Ferdinand?

People on Ilx like FF? Jesus, I haven't been paying attention.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:34 (twenty years ago)

(sarcasms)

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:35 (twenty years ago)

fight the withering sarcasm with more withering sarcasm.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:37 (twenty years ago)

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO YOU ARE

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:38 (twenty years ago)

I wasn't actually being sarcastic. I think.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:39 (twenty years ago)

my post wasn't in reference to you, Daddino. Or anyone on this thread, really.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:39 (twenty years ago)

Even Busta Rhymes is in on the Franz-loving. It's time to concede.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:41 (twenty years ago)

I like Franz Ferdinand, but I can't think of which specific "bad 80's throwback" they sound like.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:43 (twenty years ago)

(I wasn't at the concert, btw. It's possible he was rapping "Enough with the bad 80s throwback shit already" over it)

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:44 (twenty years ago)

They're named after the Austro-Hungarian archduke whose assassination started World War I, you know.

― briania (briania), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:44 (twenty years ago)

irony is when something is like iron maiden.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:46 (twenty years ago)

I actually find it really funny that you're harping on this instead of the thread that *to my shock* generated overwhelming appreciation for Ready For The World's 80s single "Oh Shelia". You can throw all the Prince comparisons you want at it and I'm still looking at you and your taste and thinking YIKES!

― jsoulja (jsoulja), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:47 (twenty years ago)

haha this from a "hardcore" nut.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:48 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I failed to actually read that review I linked to properly. It was actually Freestyle Master with the 80s throwback rapping. Carry on.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:48 (twenty years ago)

Jon you are one corny '00s indie fuck.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:49 (twenty years ago)

ihttp://www.dobi.nu/emo/boys1.gif

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:49 (twenty years ago)

Anthony, do you even know what I like?

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:49 (twenty years ago)

Girls and crystal meth?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:50 (twenty years ago)

(Sorry.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:50 (twenty years ago)

see scott seward's post about wolf eyes on that one thread, Jon. HARDCORE!

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:50 (twenty years ago)

i mean if you want to argue you're into good '80s throwbacks, fine.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:51 (twenty years ago)

Corny 00's Indie Fuckery: Yeah Yeah Yeah's, Rapture (Guilty), Franz Ferdinand, Les Savy Fav (Guilty), Interpol, !!! (Guilty), Yellowcard, Dashboard Confessional, etc.

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:51 (twenty years ago)

I listen to J-Nu-Psych, Krautrock, no-wave, nu-noise, gamelan, corny indie crap

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:52 (twenty years ago)

haha what is 80s about Dashboard Confessional? I thought he was more '70s singer-songwriter. You're so NYC underground '82 its absurd, dude.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:52 (twenty years ago)

i was rooting for you for a while jon.
but GOOD LORD, have some discretion about the indierock jamz.

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:52 (twenty years ago)

Why do people on ILX like Krautrock so much

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:53 (twenty years ago)

where did i say dashboard confessional was 80's

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:54 (twenty years ago)

because we're nazis

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:54 (twenty years ago)

Why do people on ILX like Krautrock so much

Cause it has a good beat and you can dance to it.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:54 (twenty years ago)

sorry, misread. you're saying DC are corny '00s indie fuckery. Judging by the fact that yer noise shit is all over pitchfork I'd say it equally qualifies.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:55 (twenty years ago)

Wolf Eyes reminds Thurston of the GOOD OL' DAYS, dawg.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:56 (twenty years ago)

YOU LIKE GOOD CHARLOTTE

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:56 (twenty years ago)

80's throwbacks i like this year:

Lansing-Dreiden
The Fever
Coliseum
Das Oath

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:57 (twenty years ago)

because krautrock > american rock.

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:57 (twenty years ago)

"my noise shit?" YO I AIN'T SEEN NO 50% BEAM SPLITTER REVIEWS

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Like that Throbbing Gristle / Nurse With Wound soundalike thing on Sub Pop?

― Softly Weeping at the Oki Dog (Ben Boyer), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Maybe you can dance to it Ned, but I can't.

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:59 (twenty years ago)

Pitchfork != Corny Indie Fucks

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 17:59 (twenty years ago)

"my noise shit"? YO I AIN'T SEEN NO RAT AT RAT R REVIEWS IN THE VOICE

― Thurston Moore (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:00 (twenty years ago)

but yea, WOLF EYES IS TOTALLY STEALING HOT HOT HEAT'S FANBASE

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:00 (twenty years ago)

thurston can't spell that well YOU AIN'T FOOLIN ME

― Whiskeytown Littlecock (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:00 (twenty years ago)

but yea, WOLF EYES IS TOTALLY STEALING HOT HOT HEAT'S FANBASE

no, because Anthony Miccio still doesn't like them.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:01 (twenty years ago)

the word "corny" was sort of important I think. I'm not sure the Rapture or !!! or even Franz Ferdinand whatever they are, could ever be corny.

I always thought corny was like emotional ballad stuff like Coldplay or drippy more obscure stuff.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:02 (twenty years ago)

!!! are totally corny.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:02 (twenty years ago)

Yea Ronan, Franz Ferdinand is "PURE MUSIC"

― amateurist! (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:03 (twenty years ago)

I mean, c'mon, Luke Walton look-alike rapping. That's corny.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:03 (twenty years ago)

agreed, about !!!. and so is that offshoot band, the one that just has some douchey girl hook up her cello to a delay pedal. they shoudl give out licences for those shits to people who know how to use them.

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:03 (twenty years ago)

I don't know why
you wanna impress Pitchfork
ahh let that shit die
and find out the new goal

― Jon "Kill Yr. Idols" Williams (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:04 (twenty years ago)

I think we established on another thread that 'corny' means something a bit different on each side of the Atlantic.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:05 (twenty years ago)

I actually think Wolf Eyes's corny-assed bad '70s throwback Throbbing Gristle/Chrome/etc nostalgia is surprisingly good on their new album!

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:05 (twenty years ago)

I am the BIGGEST PITCHFORK HATER EVER dude

― jw (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:05 (twenty years ago)

What does corny mean in the UK?

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago)

the douchey girl is my friend!!

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago)

emma cleveland OTM.

If hip-hop's corny for Jay-Z, then white boys aping it in their weak punk funk is even more so.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago)

FF aren't that hateable are they? Maybe, I dunno, I don't live in America.

I hate the ballady stuff people like so much more. Or the White Stripes for fuck sake!

Corny in the UK=trite, I suppose.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago)

Hmm. Maybe because most of the IlX'ers grew up in the 80s? ;)

Anyway, Electroclash rules!!!

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:07 (twenty years ago)

tell her to learn how to play that mass of wood, lauren! haha

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:07 (twenty years ago)

I didn't realise there was any rapping on the !!! album.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:07 (twenty years ago)

Wolf Eyes raps.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:08 (twenty years ago)

corny

adj : dull and tiresome but with pretensions of significance or originality; "bromidic sermons"

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:08 (twenty years ago)

that's cuz it AIN'T RAPPING.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:09 (twenty years ago)

Lightning Bolt's corny-assed bad 1978 throwback *No New York* nostalgia and Hella's corny-assed bad 1982 throwback first Meat Puppets album nostalgia also have quite a lot to recommend in them! (Black Dice's even more corny assed even worse 1970 Soft Machine nostalgia sucks major ass these days, however. Almost as must as Animal Collective's completely corny assed completely fucking worthless late '60s *Pet Sounds* nostalgia.)

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:09 (twenty years ago)

it's something MUCH WORSE.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:09 (twenty years ago)

mawkishly old-fashioned : tiresomely simple and sentimental

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:09 (twenty years ago)

What does corny mean in the UK?

I'm getting confused myself now, so I'll refer to the dictionary:

1. trite or banal
2. sentimental or mawkish
3. abounding in corn

We most often use it to refer to groan-inducing jokes, or sentimental pap.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:09 (twenty years ago)

corn·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kôrn)
adj. corn·i·er, corn·i·est
Trite, dated, melodramatic, or mawkishly sentimental.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Which band on No New York does Lightning Bolt sound like?

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago)

although it can drive me crazy sometimes, i generally have to respect nic's corniness because it's a sincere, buoyant type of corniness.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago)

chuck, that's the worst indie guilt I've ever seen

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Chuck you must deaf: Soft Machine had a drummer.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Or not necessarily sentimental. A Hollywood thriller with a predictable plot would be corny.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Basically, it's a word that annoys me the more I think about it. It's a crap word.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:11 (twenty years ago)

btw I'm not saying any of these groups are bad.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:11 (twenty years ago)

I'm waiting for the Black Dice-with-horn-section album.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:11 (twenty years ago)

i love soft machine. id rather people noodle along those lines than shady 80s jams anyday.

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:12 (twenty years ago)

i'd like to hear more about this black dice/soft machine thing. is there actually a basis to it, or did you just have to throw the comparison in to make your decade theory fit?

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:12 (twenty years ago)

READ HIS BOOK, lauren.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:14 (twenty years ago)

I guess we just don't talk about 'corny' music or music fans much. It's definitely applied much more to films and novels.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:14 (twenty years ago)

HISHAM NEEDS MONEY GUYS

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:15 (twenty years ago)

These bands are corny because 1) asinine lyrics 2) tons of label buzz and marketing 3) derivative 4) dumb fans

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:16 (twenty years ago)

You just described Animal collective

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:17 (twenty years ago)

marketing makes a band corny?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:17 (twenty years ago)

bad lyrics rarely means bad band for me.
in fact, i cant think of many bands whose lyrics i really enjoy.

im fine with "im losing my vitamin c" or booty-ed out songs about grinnnnnding. haha

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:17 (twenty years ago)

bands should be judged on their fans?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:18 (twenty years ago)

corny
adj : dull and tiresome but with pretensions of significance or originality

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:18 (twenty years ago)

derivative is bad?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:18 (twenty years ago)

I think that's it, actually. I don't think a person or a band can be corny in British English.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:18 (twenty years ago)

bands should be judged on their fans?

See that Phish thread from the other day.

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:19 (twenty years ago)

Jesus fuck some of you people are slow -- All I'm saying is that the comparisons I made above make about as much sense as saying Franz Ferdinand (who are better than Black Dice or Animal Collective, worse than Lightning Bolt or Hella or Wolf Eyes) sound like Duran Duran (or the Strokes sound like Television, or the White Stripes sound like Led Zeppelin, or Fischerspooner sound like Gary Numan), for crissakes. No, they are not exact. THAT'S. THE. POINT. GEDDIT?????

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:19 (twenty years ago)

And also, I wonder where all these noisy art-fuck bands with "great lyrics" are hiding. But who cares...

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago)

too late, I want to see a voice feature about the black dice-soft machine connections

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago)

You like Franz Ferdinand OMG

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago)

heck, most of the bands Jon's whining about shouldn't qualify as "corny indie" cuz they're not even on indie labels (Hot Hot Heat left Sub Pop for a major) just call 'em "new wave" and be done with it. Wolf Eyes on the other hand, is now on Sub Pop.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago)

For once I totally understood what you were saying Chuck! Although I was hoping somebody could point out a No New York album that sounded like Lightning Bolt. :(

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago)

Chuck's post is the first one making a comparison between Franz Ferdinand and Duran Duran.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:22 (twenty years ago)

wait, robert wyatt is working with bjork on her next freaky electro a cappella record...DO YOU SEE?!?!?

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:22 (twenty years ago)

what on earth is going on.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:22 (twenty years ago)

um, no. that point wasn't at all clear.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:22 (twenty years ago)

Indie = "boy bands with guitars"

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:22 (twenty years ago)

Why would what's considered "conry" remain constant any more than "cool"?

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago)

I couldn't take that Sung Tongs album by Animal Collective. It annoyed the hell out of me. I don't know WHO they are derivative of. Probably some other half-assed suburban spazz-rock band I've never heard of. Not that I won't give them a try in the future. I might. Especially if they put out an instrumental album. That new Frog Eyes album sucks too.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago)

It's kind of totally meaningless to me but I keep looking at it, Ronan!

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago)

White Stripes remind me of the Carpenters.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago)

boy bands with guitars! haha of course! Like Nickelback! Sum 41!

Open a window, Jon.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago)

If I've learned anything from this thread it's that we all drink way too much coffee.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago)

resisting urge to mention reverb and delay re: Animal Collective.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:24 (twenty years ago)

also, chuck, you've gone on about the animal collective/pet sounds thing on other threads, so has it all just been a wind-up?

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:24 (twenty years ago)

there's a first
x-post

― Magic City (ano ano), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:24 (twenty years ago)

hahah. i sure wouldnt give them a licence to delay.

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:24 (twenty years ago)

Pepsi is the wind beneath my wings, Nickalicious.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:25 (twenty years ago)

hahaha hi mr. Magic CIty! I didn't post on that other Animal Collective thread tho.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:25 (twenty years ago)

white stripes just remind me of gun club and pixies.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:25 (twenty years ago)

bad 80s throwbacks to bad 80s bands.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:26 (twenty years ago)

white stripes reminds me of the Violent Femmes pretending they're Led Zep

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:26 (twenty years ago)

this thread is a bad 80's bulletin board throwback.

― kephm, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:26 (twenty years ago)

There is good new spazz-rock too. I like rapider than horsepower. But there is a ton of bad stuff.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:27 (twenty years ago)

If no-wave was never metal enough for you (or if metal never broke out into blubbering abstraction frequently enough), think of Wonderful Rainbow as Lightning Bolt's answer to Metallica's Black Album--an attempt to capture the bone-saw qualities of their live show, in-studio.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:27 (twenty years ago)

yes, because the Black ALbum was such a "live" album.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:27 (twenty years ago)

this thread is a bad 80's bulletin board throwback.

http://dave.lab6.com/acid/work/year_1/term_2/jl/5_integration/ansi_bbs_login.gif

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:28 (twenty years ago)

HEY I HAVE THE WOLF EYES ART GUYS

http://legendary.org/firan/role-playing/art/ansi_wardrobe.gif

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:28 (twenty years ago)

I've seen people compare Animal Collective to Pet Sounds (in the Times, among other places), so I assume some people must believe it. (My Black Dice/Soft Machine and Franz Ferdinand/Duran Duran analogies are hardly original either, I have to confess.) As somebody who always thought *Pet Sounds* had maybe two good songs and was a major sign of a once-great band starting to get really boring, so he hasn't listened to the thing in a million years, I have no idea if the comparison has any credence or not. (And I definitely liked the live Soft Machine CD I got last year better than any Black Dice I've ever heard, for whatever that's worth. But not half as good as the Groundhogs and Atomic Rooster CDs that came in the mail on the same day.)

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:28 (twenty years ago)

outta curiousity who are Good Charlotte the bad '80s throwback of? Since they're mixing punk values (which they promote but arguably don't fulfill) with a ever-broadening inclusive sound, I'm gonna say late Clash. The next album should be a 2CD called TERRORIST!

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:29 (twenty years ago)

That mae shi album is bad spazz-rock though.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:29 (twenty years ago)

neu wave! neu wave!

I still don't get these Franz Ferdinand comparisons with the first group of 78-82 resurrectionists. They're obviously just scottish pretty boys.

― mike h. (mike h.), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:29 (twenty years ago)

http://pmj.darkillustrated.org/graphics/ansi/24l-blender.png

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:30 (twenty years ago)

!!! make me laugh and dance and so if this is corny bring on it ladie3s

xpost: oh christ

― kephm, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:30 (twenty years ago)

http://www.sonic.net/~gandalf/pics/ds23.gif

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

actually, my money has Animal Collective sounding more like Smile than Pet Sounds, especially the "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"/"I Love to Say Dada" parts of Smile.

and wow, the pictures are killing my almost-buzz for this thread

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

http://www.mbse.dds.nl/mbse/mbsebbs/images/bbs1.png

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

Being a 78-82 revivalist is now incompatible with being Scottish and pretty??

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

because it stands them out from the maddening critique crowd. but now that everyone does it it no longer seems shocking. supporting early indie music is probably more shocking for me now...

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

Miccio, yes GC resembles the CLash in that they suck really hard, too.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

they've got a little Nick Lowe going on. The trad side of nu wave.

Glad to see Jon's stopped pretending he has anything coherent to offer.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

HEY LIGHTNING BOLT SOUNDS LIKE NO NEW YORK

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:32 (twenty years ago)

um Nick Lowe post re: Franz Ferdinand

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:32 (twenty years ago)

like dude i'm going to write an essay about TIFFANY! dude NO WAY. *stares ruefully at a half-composed essay about Metal Box*

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago)

also fwiw - Soft Machine are infinitely better improvisors than Black Dice (and that's really about the only plane I can find to compare them on). But BD kill SM in the hardcore noise dept. Or they used to.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago)

Black Dice aren't improvisors.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago)

Miccio, yes GC resembles the CLash in that they suck really hard, too.

that's fine! I'm just curious if there's a group they more obviously parallel in the '80s marketplace.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago)

Please send Hisham money for ho-hos

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago)

i'm confuse

― dukecious, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago)

heard groundhogs for the first time last month. seriously damaged psych-proto-new-weird-england awesomeness!!!

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:34 (twenty years ago)

then I guess there is no comparison

x-post

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:34 (twenty years ago)

Do you guys like GROUND MONKEYS?

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:34 (twenty years ago)

groundhogs are god.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:35 (twenty years ago)

I'm waiting for the 90's post rock revivalists.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:35 (twenty years ago)

bunch o chimps

― kephm, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:35 (twenty years ago)

xpost to dleone - yeah, I mean, whether you like Black Dice or not, there's nothing about what they do live or on record that's improvisation in any sense, really. The last time I saw them everything they played sounded exactly like Creature Comforts.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:36 (twenty years ago)

Corny 00's Indie Fuckery: Yeah Yeah Yeah's, Rapture (Guilty), Franz Ferdinand, Les Savy Fav (Guilty), Interpol, !!! (Guilty), Yellowcard, Dashboard Confessional, etc.

Why are you the ultimate authority on what corny 00's Indie fuckery is allowably pleasurable (if you make yourself feel properly guilty)? Your point kinda goes to shit here. What if I totally agree w/you, but I think Yellowcard and FF are the allowable guilty pleasures? (besides that being hard to swallow)

― artdamages (artdamages), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:36 (twenty years ago)

i bought modest mouse today. should i be ashamed? i hide it inbetween my shirley collins and taking of pelham 123 dvd.

cherry red? OMG WTF IS THAT? jesus christ. i played it about 100x

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:36 (twenty years ago)

i'm making another cup of nescafe.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:36 (twenty years ago)

doomie, i started a groundhogs thread that you might find informative:

Broheems, You Do Need A Copy Of Black Diamond! A.K.A. The Groundhogs Thread

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:37 (twenty years ago)

what I would like is a revival of 70s experimental jazz-prog: Soft Machine, Area, Magma, Jacques Thollot...

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:38 (twenty years ago)

LIghtning Bolt is derivative of the Ruins. When Ruins and Boredoms were first released here on Shimmy Disc ('91 or so), they was considered neo-no wave. No New York is just a signpost for no wave in general.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:39 (twenty years ago)

artdamages: whoa whoa whoa. back off psycho

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:39 (twenty years ago)

dleone -- errr proggy wyrd folk is happening oop north of england. band influences by magma, shirley collins, elephant's memory ... strange but true. and i love it.

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:40 (twenty years ago)

Ruins are not no wave, dummy.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:40 (twenty years ago)

(also f.f. are not pretty kthxbye!)

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:40 (twenty years ago)

god i hope youre right doomie.
suggest some.
i want the proggy wank back!

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:41 (twenty years ago)

According to you.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:41 (twenty years ago)

Seriously, Jon is the new Calz.

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:42 (twenty years ago)

It is really hard to find Magma rekkids.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:42 (twenty years ago)

ACCORDING TO ALLMUSIC.COM, RUINS:

* Avant-Garde
* Noise-Rock
* Prog-Rock/Art Rock
* Alternative Pop/Rock
* Avant-Garde

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:42 (twenty years ago)

that's why Ruins are so great: people can't tell whether they're punk or prog (btw, they're prog). whereas to my ears, Lightning Bolt are punk

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:42 (twenty years ago)

http://www.angelscribe.com/IMAGES/ms_wings.jpg

― Softly Weeping at the Oki Dog (Ben Boyer), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:42 (twenty years ago)

man allmusic doesnt have any credibility with me now that its all classy looking. haha

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:43 (twenty years ago)

doomie OTM about it no longer being "shocking," if it ever was. FF sound more like an amalgamation of current sounds, which may or may not be copying No New York styles and such. They're not riffing off of NNY, they're riffing off of bands that already did that.

― mike h. (mike h.), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:43 (twenty years ago)

It is really hard to find Magma rekkids.

http://www.seventhrecords.com

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:43 (twenty years ago)

"Since Boredoms and Ruins were on the **SAME** label and were **BOTH** japanese clearly, they were both **NO WAVE**."

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:44 (twenty years ago)

artdamages: whoa whoa whoa. back off psycho

dude what do you mean, I was just asking for the sake of argument. I don't really care one way or the other. Maybe I worded my post poorly.

― artdamages (artdamages), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:44 (twenty years ago)

jon, go to cleveland. the magma records flow like water.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:45 (twenty years ago)

That's like saying that Pleasurehorse sounds like ruins because both he and Lightning Bolt hail from Providence and are on LOAD records

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:45 (twenty years ago)

tis true emma!!!!! check this out: www.b-music.co.uk i could name names but people will either go YOU ARE WRONG or NO.

check out essential records section. that section is like my recommendation list!

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:45 (twenty years ago)

If you'll pardon me, I'll be sneaking away to the "All the Words in the English Language" thread with the following:

"throwbacks" "horseshit" "freakin'" "krautrock" "sarcasms" "archduke" "harping" "fuckery" "drippy" "douchey" "hateable" "Electroclash" "bromidic" "mawkishly" "spazz-rock" "chimps" "proggy"

Thanks,
Prof. Lexicon

― pax_briania (briania), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:46 (twenty years ago)

I mean, is it derailed if it wasn't ever really railed?

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:46 (twenty years ago)

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, dummy. If you don't hear the connection between Ruins, Soul Discharge-era Boredoms and no wave, that's your problem.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:47 (twenty years ago)

go to virginia, the rush records flow like water.
(no hometown pride)

thanks doomie! i hope my musical stagnation is about to be cured

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:48 (twenty years ago)

I'm listening to Sigh right now. I don't think they are no-wave. They probably own some Soft Machine records though.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:48 (twenty years ago)

lots of Americans are ripping off British prog folk these days, too.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:48 (twenty years ago)

also Ruins = prog-metal, people.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago)

YOU'RE A DUMMY, DUMMY!

― DUMMY (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago)

Scott Seward, I kiss you. I like Sigh a lot. PRETTY

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago)

there's a reason why Weasel Walter was front and center every time they played Chicago (he's a fan of no wave too though so I suppose that confuses things).

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago)

i get demos from up north all the time .. got this email today. i feckin' love it. it's so different.. less being knowing and more can influences please...

hi there!
I would dearly love to send a demo to you. I read the
opening page on your website with tears of joy rolling
down my cheeks. Whats your favorite can album? i cant
pick one! Tago Mago or monster movie or maybe when i
recently saw damo play at a real low key gig in
Stockton and i leaped on stage and got Him to
autograph my bass players copy of ege bamyasi (on
vinyl no less).
Yes andy warhol, yes motown, yes early 60s pop, i dont
need to go on about it. But i want to send a demo to
you, i want you to hear a three piece band from grim
up north musicians (name changed to protect the innocent), and hear the results of
three completely different people forming a band due
to the love of Can,Velvet Underground and Magma

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago)

hstencil, prog-metal = Dream Theater. these distinctions are important

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:50 (twenty years ago)

god doomie these people's top tens are intense.
besides van der graff generator and gal costa, im pretty much at a loss. (awesome)

― emma cleveland (emma cleveland), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:51 (twenty years ago)

ooo - i want to get gal costa ... i got the lost summer soundtrack and its so brilliant and so different. i love it. got affinity as well...

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:52 (twenty years ago)

hstencil, prog-metal = Dream Theater. these distinctions are important

That's what Ruins sounds like to me! Except the vocals are less funny.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:53 (twenty years ago)

sigh, we never did figure out why people on ILX like bad '80s throwbacks so much.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:54 (twenty years ago)

who cares more people talking about groundhogs and the can dvd boxset please.

― doomie x, Friday, 30 July 2004 18:55 (twenty years ago)

doomie OTM.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:55 (twenty years ago)

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:56 (twenty years ago)

really, Ruins are kind of their own genre, but if you have fit them into a prog world, they are on the magma/area/samla mammas manna end, filtered through the sound (but not attitude) of hardcore punk. the above bands are usually generalized as "avant-prog".

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:57 (twenty years ago)

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/boy-dog.gif

― Softly Weeping at the Oki Dog (Ben Boyer), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:58 (twenty years ago)

valid, it's just I wouldn't have bothered to scroll this far down if it was just gonna another "looking for noise" thread.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:58 (twenty years ago)

xpost deleone - oh that "they're their own genre" is a copout of the HIGHEST order dude. You might as well tell me to read your book.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:58 (twenty years ago)

I don't honestly think they sound enough like other bands to say what genre they're in*. they're closest to prog

* - I do think a lot bands sound like them

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 18:59 (twenty years ago)

And also, I wonder where all these noisy art-fuck bands with "great lyrics" are hiding.

To Live and Shave in LA, Country Teasers, Fat Worm of Error?

― my name is limitless, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:00 (twenty years ago)

also METAL for ART-metallers

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:00 (twenty years ago)

Black Dice has great lyrics on the first few 7 inches

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:00 (twenty years ago)

Someone: "The bands you like are just as corny and derivative."
Jon: "But they don't suck."

Lock thread.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:01 (twenty years ago)

speaking of Sigh:

I need the power

the principle of all things, that rules us all the time
the hidden power my lust evokes, known in ancient rhyme.
turning sexual energy into the power to kill
ritual pleasure sets it free and fullfills my will.

at the burial site on a moon-shrouded night
searching for a skull to complete my altar
the skull of the wise or of the high priests
the skull of a king to awake the inner beast

who is calling my name? I pray for power!

unholy sexuality brings me to a realm you'll never see
feel my wrath rise and it will set my lust free
shingontachikawa, the ancient cult - the dark belief, I hold you high.

the skull as a symbol of the supreme evil, I hold you high!
grant to me all the powers of darkness!

I need the power

seven years of the secret rite before the decollated skull
all will be achieved tonight, sky is blackened, moon is full,
the incense of hangonkou burnt more than a thousand times
mandala on the skull starts to glow, it's time for you to die.

the lord of evil, in shadow, appeared to me
gave me knowledge, and spoke to me of sanze,
crossed the abyss between past, present, future -
the forbidden wisdom, for now I possess jintsu.

I've got the power!

― my name is limitless, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:02 (twenty years ago)

Tim, you're just mad becuase you were so wrong.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:03 (twenty years ago)

Wrong about what, that Ruins were the Magma-influenced Teenage Jesus?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:06 (twenty years ago)

They sound a lot more like MAGMA to me kiddo.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:08 (twenty years ago)

We should all just listen to Boris all the time.

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:09 (twenty years ago)

Sure. But they were more punk and the duo form seemed like no wave. Remember, this was 1991, bucko.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:10 (twenty years ago)

>And also, I wonder where all these noisy art-fuck bands with "great lyrics" are hiding.
To Live and Shave in LA, Country Teasers, Fat Worm of Error?<

I do like Country Teasers's words. And as corny-assed '70s/'80s Fall nostalgia, their music is pretty good, too. But in the post above, I was referring to even noisier art-fucks than them, I think.

First time I heard Ruins I thought they were like the Boredoms only not as good; first time I heard the Boredoms (Soul Discharge, which I reviewed in the Voice when it came out -- there were a couple early '70s 7-inch EPS too, I think), I thought they were like no wave but not as good. First time I heard Lightning Bolt, I thought they were like the Boredoms except not as good. And no wave was pretty prog in the first place. So Tim knows what he's talking about.

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:10 (twenty years ago)

http://fagsupport.ytmnd.com/

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:11 (twenty years ago)

I hate how "No New York" and "no wave" have become synonyms for "noisy."

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:11 (twenty years ago)

i meant early '90s (or late '80s) not early 70s for those EPs obviously, oops

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:11 (twenty years ago)

No New York and no wave (and Lightning Bolt and the Boredoms and Ruins, for that matter) are a lot more than just "noisy," hstencil. I'm not sure who said otherwise, either (though maybe I missed it.)

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:13 (twenty years ago)

somebody buy Jon every issue of Conflict k please thanx

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:13 (twenty years ago)

xpost Chuck I know they are a lot more than just noisy! That's my point.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:14 (twenty years ago)

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SUCH A NAZI!?!

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:14 (twenty years ago)

the funny part is that if Tatsuya Yoshida has even heard the no-wave bands, it's from John Zorn telling him about them

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:15 (twenty years ago)

NOISE TAPE TRADING

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:15 (twenty years ago)

Are you now called "Bunzzzzz" because you're hot and cross?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:15 (twenty years ago)

(I just couldn't resist.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago)

(Yohimi P-We's favorite drummer was Ikue Mori)

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago)

how many no wave duos were there? I seriously can't think of any.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago)

Suicide?

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:17 (twenty years ago)

oh come on.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:19 (twenty years ago)

otoh, Yoshida (Ruins leader/drummer btw for anyone unaware) is a major This Heat fan, and to me, that's much more an indication of his lineage than punk or no-wave

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:19 (twenty years ago)

"Duo" is not the point. Deconstructed rock band ensemble is.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:20 (twenty years ago)

Saying that "Soul Discharge" era Boredoms is "like No Wave", while not exactly untrue, leaves so much out of the picture as to be just about useless as a description.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:20 (twenty years ago)

Deconstructed rock band ensemble is.

stop wanking thanks1

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:21 (twenty years ago)

DNA played as a duo a few times.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:21 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, duos can sound like trios (or quartets) sometimes, so I don't know what the original no wave bands not traveling in twos would prove.

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:21 (twenty years ago)

"the duo form seemed like no wave."

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:21 (twenty years ago)

Jon's is the only convincing answer.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:22 (twenty years ago)

Ruins had drums and distorted bass sounds. Many no wave bands also had drums.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:23 (twenty years ago)

Sometimes No Wave bands used keyboard. SO DID RUINS

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:23 (twenty years ago)

Sorry for getting too high-falutin' for you to handle, Jon. What was the precedent for deconstructed rock band ensembles in 1991 OTHER THAN NO WAVE?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:23 (twenty years ago)

>Saying that "Soul Discharge" era Boredoms is "like No Wave", while not exactly untrue, leaves so much out of the picture as to be just about useless as a description.<

Yes, and obviously that was my entire description when I reviewed the record for the Voice. Five words, total!! Even look it up.

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:23 (twenty years ago)

Saying that "Soul Discharge" era Boredoms is "like No Wave", while not exactly untrue, leaves so much out of the picture as to be just about useless as a description.

yep. I think a lot of this discussion comes back to an idea that people find it hard to believe bands like Ruins and Boredoms could happen without being in the thick of no-wave or whatever experimental scene was happening at the time in the US (or more accurately, NYC). it's insulting, really

x-post

well, chuck, what do you really think about them?

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:25 (twenty years ago)

"Deconstructed" "ensemble" "wanker"

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:25 (twenty years ago)

What was the precedent for deconstructed rock band ensembles in 1991 OTHER THAN NO WAVE?

Gibson Brothers? Pussy Galore? Big Black? ie. many things that may have certain affinities with no wave but are clearly not no wave.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:26 (twenty years ago)

Eye and Yoshimi were listening to DNA a lot when they started UFO or Die!

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:26 (twenty years ago)

So hstencil and Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) , do you also believe that music that doesn't sound exactly like "Rapper's Delight" isn't rap music, and music that doesn't sound exactly like the first Black Sabbath album isn't metal, and music that doesn't sound exactly like Louis Armstrong's Hot Five isn't jazz??

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:27 (twenty years ago)

I think a lot of this discussion comes back to an idea that people find it hard to believe bands like Ruins and Boredoms could happen without being in the thick of no-wave or whatever experimental scene was happening at the time in the US (or more accurately, NYC). it's insulting, really.

good call, dleone. Actually I think it ties back into earlier stuff in the thread too, and the basic conflict between bands that have affinities with earlier stuff but contextually are somewhat sui generis like, say, Ruins - and obvious one-idea-cribbed jokers like Franz Ferdinand.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Also, NAKED CITY motherfuckers.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:27 (twenty years ago)

not at all Chuck, so please don't insinuate that I do. Thanks.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:28 (twenty years ago)

more non no wave pre-1991 deconstructionists: This Heat, Pere Ubu, Red Krayola, UM PUNK ROCK AS AN ENTIRE MOVEMENT maybe?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:28 (twenty years ago)

I think Ruins draws a lot more on Sabbath, Zeppelin, Hanatarash and Fushitsusha than any No New York band.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:29 (twenty years ago)

Also, lots of jazz that I've never heard of

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:32 (twenty years ago)

i'm making another cup of nescafe.

Could I ask for one, please?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:32 (twenty years ago)

>obvious one-idea-cribbed jokers like Franz Ferdinand<

"obvious"

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:34 (twenty years ago)

what's so non-obvious about their sound and its origins? I can't imagine debating them to the extent we have with Ruins.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:35 (twenty years ago)

Franz Ferdinand is a throwback to the Doors, anyway.

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:36 (twenty years ago)

more deconstructionist antecedents here:

http://www.downintheflood.com/amazon/0674535812.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:37 (twenty years ago)

As if new wave bands and garage bands and pop bands and bands with snazzy haircuts by defintion can't "recontextualize" as much as art bands and noise bands and prog bands that people watching MTV never heard of. I guess it's refreshing to realize there are still people out there who fall for that old platitute, though.

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:37 (twenty years ago)

recontextualizing /= ripping off wholesale and re-marketing

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:38 (twenty years ago)

"recontextualize"

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:38 (twenty years ago)

xpost

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:38 (twenty years ago)

this thread =

ESTRAGON: Charming spot. (He turns, advances to front, halts facing auditorium.) Inspiring prospects. (He turns to Vladimir.) Let's go.
VLADIMIR: We can't.
ESTRAGON: Why not?
VLADIMIR: We're waiting for Godot.
ESTRAGON: (despairingly). Ah! (Pause.) You're sure it was here?
VLADIMIR: What?
ESTRAGON: That we were to wait.
VLADIMIR: He said by the tree. (They look at the tree.) Do you see any others?
ESTRAGON: What is it?
VLADIMIR: I don't know. A willow.
ESTRAGON: Where are the leaves?
VLADIMIR: It must be dead.
ESTRAGON: No more weeping.
VLADIMIR: Or perhaps it's not the season.
ESTRAGON: Looks to me more like a bush.
VLADIMIR: A shrub.
ESTRAGON: A bush.
VLADIMIR: A—. What are you insinuating? That we've come to the wrong place?
ESTRAGON: He should be here.
VLADIMIR: He didn't say for sure he'd come.
ESTRAGON: And if he doesn't come?
VLADIMIR: We'll come back tomorrow.
ESTRAGON: And then the day after tomorrow.
VLADIMIR: Possibly.
ESTRAGON: And so on.
VLADIMIR: The point is—
ESTRAGON: Until he comes.
VLADIMIR: You're merciless.
ESTRAGON: We came here yesterday.
VLADIMIR: Ah no, there you're mistaken.
ESTRAGON: What did we do yesterday?
VLADIMIR: What did we do yesterday?
ESTRAGON: Yes.

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:39 (twenty years ago)

that's the old canard anyway - if one doesn't like something "popular" one must be "elitist."

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:39 (twenty years ago)

I wonder if Franz Ferdinand is schooled in CRITICAL THEORY?

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:39 (twenty years ago)

The Village Voice is elitist.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:39 (twenty years ago)

Adorno argues persuasively that Beckett's work is creatively challenging because it can be seen as philosophical satire which uses references to canonical works in order to undermine their authority. He speaks crucially of 'the precariousness of what Beckett refuses to deal with, interpretation'. This view is correct, if somewhat unnerving. Godot and Endgame are powerful (and highly comic) pieces of theatre. They are also works of literature which need to be read as well as seen and which call into play all the knowledge that readers may have. Beckett's vision is frequently described as pessimistic. His works are also said to be 'elitist' in their constant intertextual references: after all, as Estragon says, 'People are bloody ignorant apes'.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:40 (twenty years ago)

If Chuck's point is that being noisy does not immunize a band against the charge of corniness, then I agree with him. I mean any band that comes out on stage in 2004 and starts playing a bunch of howling static or whatever and expects anyone to be shocked or even mildly surprised is fooling themselves. It's an established genre like any other.

I also think that people need to get past this idea that saying a band sounds like some other earlier band automatically discredits them. Every band is going to remind you of something, especially as you get older. It goes back to that word "derivative" I think, and all that it implies.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:41 (twenty years ago)

If one examines the dialectic paradigm of consensus, one is faced with a choice: either accept neocapitalist rationalism or conclude that the goal of the participant is significant form, but only if truth is equal to sexuality; otherwise, Debord's model of socialist realism is one of "Lyotardist narrative", and thus part of the dialectic of narrativity. Sargeant[2] implies that the works of Eco are not postmodern. But Bataille uses the term 'postdeconstructive feminism' to denote the role of the artist as participant.
The main theme of the works of Eco is the common ground between culture and sexual identity. The characteristic theme of von Junz's[3] analysis of capitalist objectivism is the genre, and some would say the defining characteristic, of capitalist society. In a sense, Derrida uses the term 'neocapitalist rationalism' to denote the role of the artist as poet.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:42 (twenty years ago)

I don't think that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying I dislike FF for being "derivative" in and of itself as you correctly state, most everything is.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:43 (twenty years ago)

I don't think I like Franz Ferdinand much myself, but there is nothing remotely "obvious" about them being less interesting than bands noisier or artier than them. Maybe they are; maybe they're not. How much have you actually studied their album, anyway, hstencil (who is the one who first compared them with Ruins "contextually" by the way, not me)?

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:44 (twenty years ago)

haha, "older". Anyway, I happen to like the fact that Chuck Eddy is debating with spastic picture-posting, symbol-email-having ground monkeys about no-wave and Boredoms.

x-post

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:45 (twenty years ago)

Do you guys like Fushitsusha!@?!@

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:46 (twenty years ago)

I have heard enough FF to be bored by them, and thus found them obvious. I do not particularly like Ruins, but I am not bored by them, although I do find some of their sound obvious, though not to the point of derision.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:47 (twenty years ago)

also FF's "obviousness" has nothing to do with this:

...there is nothing remotely "obvious" about them being less interesting than bands noisier or artier than them...

It has everything to do with their musical antecedents, their marketing, their "cultural niche" and not how that compares with other bands per se.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:49 (twenty years ago)

bunzzzz-ie breaking out the po-mo generator. hott.

"I mean any band that comes out on stage in 2004 and starts playing a bunch of howling static or whatever and expects anyone to be shocked or even mildly surprised is fooling themselves. It's an established genre like any other."

QUITE TRUE. i maintain that house music has actually now surpassed noise in terms of an ability to instantaneously offend. this has to do with its creators not often being white middle class art students with attendant fair grip on white middle class aesthetic dynamics (but could be, sometimes!).

"...strokes and stripes have kept the middle class away from the dance floors .."
-stephen malkmus

― duke dance, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:50 (twenty years ago)

but duke where's dance punk in your thesis then? The safe dance music for white middle class kids? (I might agree.)

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:51 (twenty years ago)

they are Scotland's answer to the Strokes

― artdamages (artdamages), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:52 (twenty years ago)

if Marc Bolan had lived long enough to play w/Orange Juice it might sound something like Franz Ferdinand

― artdamages (artdamages), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:52 (twenty years ago)

Je te conseille dans un autre genre de te pencher sur les "musiques" de
Merzbow et Boredoms tu y verras que ces Artistes recherchent la
frontière entre le bruit et la musique. Enfin voilà, nous n'avons pas
tous la même approche vis-à-vis de la musique...et heureusement.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:54 (twenty years ago)

they are Scotland's answer to the Strokes

I might agree with this in re: a riff = a marketing concept.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:54 (twenty years ago)

well that was something I read in their press sheet i think

― artdamages (artdamages), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:55 (twenty years ago)

a riff = a marketing concept

Best Wire song title ever?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:56 (twenty years ago)

I have heard enough FF to be bored by them, and thus found them obvious.

wow.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:56 (twenty years ago)

"The safe dance music for white middle class kids? (I might agree.)"

THE OLD ADAGE ABOUT PORN "KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT"
i don't knock for trying though as dance is more punk than noise now, but it depends on the case as to whether it's gonna strike me as enervatingly "safe" or not. i do like !!! for instance. very honest and skilled band IMHO.

― duke opine, Friday, 30 July 2004 19:57 (twenty years ago)

Oh please, 3000 high school girls dancing to the Rapture prove you wrong.

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:58 (twenty years ago)

a riff = a marketing concept
Best Wire song title ever?

yeah, and Wire is a good example of yet another non-no wave "deconstructionist" rock band pre-1991.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:58 (twenty years ago)

your own...personal....kneejerk

― duke jesus, Friday, 30 July 2004 20:01 (twenty years ago)

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 July 2004 20:02 (twenty years ago)

>>"...strokes and stripes have kept the middle class away from the dance floors .."
-stephen malkmus<

I have no idea what this means. I also have no idea why anybody would think Malkmus would know anything about music people can dance to.

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago)

"Gibson Brothers? Pussy Galore? Big Black? This Heat, Pere Ubu, Red Krayola"

Far less over-the-top insane (and arty, in the case of the first three bands) than no wave.

I think Jon is coming around with his comments about Yoshimi and UFO or Die.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 20:17 (twenty years ago)

I think Franz Ferdinand sound kind of dippy in a 60s way.

Isn't the big difference between No Wave bands and the growling psych-rock shaggy dog stories of Lightning Bolt and Thee Hydrogen Terrors and Ruins and The Boredoms is that metal and dance music happened in between. No Wave wanted rock to open its smallminded tent up, recognize the breadth and reach and unexpectedness of rock bands. Post techno, post metal, this argument wasn't as necessary (or even as desirable?) - the ties were severed - see Chicago noise scene ca. 1994.. from now on, sounding both interesting AND like a rock band would be an uphill battle, not something that would come naturally..

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 30 July 2004 20:18 (twenty years ago)

By the way, is there a better way to talk about a deconstructed rock band ensemble without using the term "deconstructed" and ruffling the feathers of knee-jerk anti-intellectuals?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 July 2004 20:20 (twenty years ago)

..wait, since when did metal and dance music happen AFTER no wave????

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 20:21 (twenty years ago)

cue that crazy po-mo generator, so funny

i like tha malkmus touch of leaving open the possibility that he's only referring to visual phenomena

― duke dots, Friday, 30 July 2004 20:21 (twenty years ago)

(especially since James Chance covered Michael Jackson and DNA covered Led Zeppelin!!)

xpost

― chuck, Friday, 30 July 2004 20:23 (twenty years ago)

chuck I should have said TECHNO because that's what I meant. Which severed all ties with rock. (DO NOT remind me that disco was dance music too!) And most metal, ca. 1996 or so, severed its last remaining ties with rock as well, at least according to Siegbran, who I trust with these things. A metal band covering a techno set: Lightning Bolt

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 30 July 2004 20:27 (twenty years ago)

How this helps answer the question I have no idea but the question isn't very good in the first place.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 30 July 2004 20:27 (twenty years ago)

hisham's solo show a few weeks ago had serious shades of basic channel happening. it was fresh

― duke volume, Friday, 30 July 2004 20:31 (twenty years ago)

Why can't we all be accepting of the fact that Orange Juice was the most perfect band of all time?

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Friday, 30 July 2004 20:47 (twenty years ago)

Bowie

― sexyDancer, Friday, 30 July 2004 20:56 (twenty years ago)

are any of you guys feeling the Nina & Sky song?

http://web.icq.com/ucfriendship/gif/1,,555_r,00.gif

― Softly Weeping at the Oki Dog (Ben Boyer), Friday, 30 July 2004 21:03 (twenty years ago)

By the way "Oh Sheila" came up on random when I first started reading this thread and I can't see how anyone could possibly hear anything wrong with it (except maybe it should be faster).

xpost

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 30 July 2004 21:04 (twenty years ago)

er, lighting bolt are basically an update of US hardcore punk, maybe a bit more 'amped' up, maybe taking something from no wave, the crazy time signature crap from prog (maybe not just from prog) but essentially hardcore (that guy really does pound his drums, as an ilxer who I was with noticed, I also noticed a black flag t-shirt).

No wave was, to these ears and as tracer said, something that was open but I'm not sure they wanted to revitalise rock (and no it wasn't all noisy, not according to the 'noise fest' cassette, the range of things could be really surprising to someone who has only heard no new york, and who knows abt duos -- maybe rudolgh grey and von LMO played as a duo -- but there are all these other bands that i never heard of (only one track for each of 'em on this cassette); overall then, I think sounding both interesting and ROCK was difficult after say, 1972, maybe when prog-lameness (and much prog goodness if you believe in dave q) came abt).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 30 July 2004 22:14 (twenty years ago)

brian chippendale's favorite band is Can.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Friday, 30 July 2004 22:22 (twenty years ago)

"That's like saying that Pleasurehorse sounds like ruins because both he and Lightning Bolt hail from Providence and are on LOAD records"

lol pwned!!!

― Ade (Adrian Langston), Friday, 30 July 2004 22:41 (twenty years ago)

I think the underlying problem here is really the issue of whether you can know things about music, whether you buy into rockcrit distinctions of genres and eras and movements. Watching people stake out/create intellectual territory.

Franz Ferdinand sound like the Talking Heads to me..

― daria g (daria g), Saturday, 31 July 2004 04:52 (twenty years ago)

WTF this thread isn't about 80's thowbacks at all, it is about the same fucking indie wank you guys talk about on every single other fucking thread! Now and for quite some time now the "ILM hates Pitchfork" joke has been a damned farce because most of ILM's taste has become exactly like Pitchfork's. FUCK.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Saturday, 31 July 2004 06:05 (twenty years ago)

boy are those last 2 posts OTM. "watching people stake out/create intellectual territory" has its charms but recently ILM leads me to believe it's got fuck-all to do with discussing music. Two random reactions to yet another hurmorless discursive debate:
*DNA covered Led Zep ONCE, at their last gig! As a joke!
*Adorno HATED pop music, viewed it with total contempt. Why he
gets trotted out by intellectual rock-crits remains a mystery.

― stars on MP3, Saturday, 31 July 2004 10:32 (twenty years ago)

Hahahahahaha!!!

"intellectual"

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 31 July 2004 12:46 (twenty years ago)

OK, then how about Red Transistor/VON LMO as no wave metal?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 31 July 2004 14:44 (twenty years ago)

Two Boots Wave, shrimp.

― sexyDancer, Saturday, 31 July 2004 16:10 (twenty years ago)

Neither metal nor techno severed all ties with rock in the '80s or ever; that's completely ridiculous.

It was possible to sound both "interesting" and "rock" not only after 1972, but after 1982, 1992, and 2002 as well.

When Nick Catucci told me (a couple years ago) that Lightning Bolt are considered by the kids (in Providence, at least) a "post-hardcore" band, I couldn't for the life of me understand why, not only because they sounded way more no wave than hardcore (partly because their rhythm *doesn't* merely jump up and down in place!) to me, but also because "post-hardcore" to me was, like, Husker Du and the Minutemen and the Meat Puppets and Flipper in 1982-83-84.

My favorite album on Load Records is still the first Thee Hydrogen Terrors one (which much makes me think of the Contortions.) (Also the Fall, I guess, though.)

And I remembered last night that, when I first heard the Boredoms, who they REALLY mostly reminded me of were the Butthole Surfers. Who, yeah, were yet another "post-hardcore" band in the mid '80s.

― chuck, Saturday, 31 July 2004 18:44 (twenty years ago)

Not to mention the fact that the Butthole Surfers, in the '80s, were lumped in with bands like Sonic Youth, who were post-no wave.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 31 July 2004 18:57 (twenty years ago)

chuck, Lightning Bolt and band like Black Dice are called post-hardcore because they were formed by people who were still playing hardcore into the 90s. See also bands like !!! and the Rapture, and Radio 4 etc etc. Some are post-hardcore in that their members came out of the hardcore scene, while Lightning Bolt and Black Dice's sound more directly relates to the hardcore scenes they came out of.

The Techno that I listened to in the late 80s and early 90s was pretty severed from rock, except perhaps for exactly two songs, Ben Liebrand's remix of Ram Jam's Black Betty and Renegade Soundwave's Biting My Nails.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 31 July 2004 18:59 (twenty years ago)

"chuck, Lightning Bolt and band like Black Dice are called post-hardcore because they were formed by people who were still playing hardcore into the 90s. See also bands like !!! and the Rapture, and Radio 4 etc etc. Some are post-hardcore in that their members came out of the hardcore scene, while Lightning Bolt and Black Dice's sound more directly relates to the hardcore scenes they came out of."

OTM.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:05 (twenty years ago)

Let's twist again like we did last winter!!!:

Indie-Dance / Punk-Funk - What Went Wrong The First Time?

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:05 (twenty years ago)

sorry, just got briefly nostalgic for retro threads of yore.(but not really. well, kinda.)

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:07 (twenty years ago)

ah, that thread brings me back...right back to never wanting to post again!

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:15 (twenty years ago)

oh god, no.

― artdamages (artdamages), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:22 (twenty years ago)

you don't want to revisit the thread or you want me to stop posting?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:26 (twenty years ago)

the thread. i always enjoy your postings.

― artdamages (artdamages), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:45 (twenty years ago)

aw shucks, thanks.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 31 July 2004 19:51 (twenty years ago)

Lightning Bolt and Black Dice's sound more directly relates to the hardcore scenes they came out of.

That's not entirely correct, but whatever. Black Dice kids were way more into TWEE POP than hardcore, and say as much in an interview somewhere on the web. And Lightning Bolt have stated that they find much more in common with metal than punk.

LON: Heavy Metal or Punk Rock?

BG: Punk to me is about politics, Metal is about spirituality (and Lord of the Rings). I think the language of music is more qualified, by nature, to make effective statements regarding spirituality (and lotr) than it is politics. I’ll go with heavy Metal. Although in todays desperate political climate I suppose I may be more receptive to punk than usual.

BC: Heavy Metal, but its close, I’m open.?

Not to make this argument even more tedious and muddled than it already is, of course.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:04 (twenty years ago)

Kids in Providence think Lightning Bolt is a dance band. Trust me, dudes.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:06 (twenty years ago)

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm pretty sure Brian Gibson and Brian Chippendale never were in a hardcore band and are thus not "post hardcore". Who do you think they are JUNE OF 44?

Anyway, I think you guys are overlooking the importance of 80's Japanese grind and thrash bands -- who had a significant overlap with the fanbase of early purveyors of JNOISE

(xpost)

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:18 (twenty years ago)

Ian...didn't Black Dice used to be a Hardcore band? And my basic assumption regarding most of this is that many many many of these musicians were into Metal as kids, then got into punk and hardcore scenes during high school/the 90s. And as metal became hip again, first ironically, then not, many punks were glad to have the chance to shread like they always wanted to. Cory Archangel, Mick Barr or Battletorn. Battletorn's a bad example, I imagine Omid's always been metal, but you know what I mean. It's either a Vice stance (metal as white-trash cool) or now let's take this seriously (James Plotkin and co?).

But seriously 90% of the people in their late 20s/early 30s I've met who play metal/post-punk/electro-punk/no wave/noise whatever were all into hardcore 10 years ago and all know each other through that network. That's why I keep bringing this up.

And I don't think Lightning Bolt would exist in the way it does as popular as it is if this aforementioned 90s hardcore scene didn't stretch in more interesting directions, turning lots and lots of kids into what was previously the province of just record dorks. When the Ruins were putting out records on Shimmy Disc, were their shows filled with sweaty 20 year olds?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:22 (twenty years ago)

i haven't read through this whole thread (sorry), but here are my two cents:

most people are victims to "throwbacks" of any era they grew up in. people like being reminded of being young. if you grew up hearing 80's songs playing on the radio/MTV, then you're bound to be a sucker for that sound, whether it's the original stuff, or some retro BS.

― cutty (mcutt), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:01 (twenty years ago)

yeah, sure, but what genre is Ruins?

― artdamages (artdamages), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:09 (twenty years ago)

'It was possible to sound both "interesting" and "rock" not only after 1972, but after 1982, 1992, and 2002 as well.'

yes but I just said it was just more difficult.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:15 (twenty years ago)

Dan:
The Ft. Thunder scene was a fairly separate scene from the hardcore shows taking place at Space 139 or The Met Cafe or in Anton Bordman's basement. Fanbase overlap occurred, of course, and participants knew each other through other things (food not bombs, etc.) but the target audience of any given show has historically been pretty obvious. The scenes operated in similar ways, but as far as actual intersection and, more importantly, musical cross-pollination, I don't think much occurred. When the Sickle started putting on shows in Providence, they were mostly hardcore shows with the occasional noisy/arty/etc. show thrown in, and from one night to the next the audience could be completely different.

So no, I don't really dispute that they may come from a scene steeped in hardcore values (DIY, $3 shows, vegan bake sales), but their music doesn't reflect much of a punk/hardcore influence save for being similarly energetic. Hardcore takes itself too seriously, especially around here.

As far as Black Dice being a hardcore band, I guess so. Their first 7" came out on a hardcore label, but the label approached them rather than the other way around. It got clear pretty quickly though that they were onto something much more interesting. Haven't they said openly that their early hardcore days more of an experiment in volume and audience damage?

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:24 (twenty years ago)

i think "post-hardcore" is almost always going to refer more to fans'/listeners' predilections (or issues) than it is the musicmakers'. this is because that was the only non-cheesy, accepted portal for most independently-minded kids in U.S. breaking out of just taking what they were given and meeting each other for various purposes. and THAT was the biggest part. fidelity to a pious ideal whilst still partying and getting laid etc. it was obv NOT all about the music in a lot of those cases, as any objective perusal of too many of those records will rather quckly reveal.
i think kids (esp. the very much younger versions of that ol' dynamic) are becoming more about the music now, and post SY, the dice coming to NYC will be seen as a big part of that, ridiculous as it might sound now. they bridged the gap more than anyone between those sets of values, and like New York Times Sunday Edition ones. and at the right time.

― duke soft, Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:27 (twenty years ago)

post-hardcore as a a scene: camo shorts, not using shampoo, thrift store t-shirts with hand-made alterations, warehouses, shitty PAs

post-hardcore as a genre: chuck sez "minutemen", jw sez "hoover." WHO WINS?

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:31 (twenty years ago)

Nick Forte of Rorschach, then Computer Cougar, then Beautiful Skin, is the prototype of the hardcore guy starting to do post-punk-etc.-influenced music.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:33 (twenty years ago)

yeah, from rorshach to kompakt! a good dude to boot

― dukeskin, Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:44 (twenty years ago)

xxpost i guess i was actually referring to hardcore-hardcore but then i'm getting a bit long in the tooth

― duke tooth, Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:45 (twenty years ago)

ian-as you say/can tell, I don't know the ins and outs of the providence scene like you and tend to generalize. I think duke hits it that it's about the fans. Regardless of Lightning Bolt's background, I still associate most of these types of shows with hardcore, because when I was going to noise shows, there wasn't anyone there, now there's tons of kids who do acknowledge their own punk background.

tim-good one. I mentioned this before here, but I had a conversation with Nick at a party at Simon Reynold's house(how's that for ILM small world) about being in the right place as the wrong time, Computer Couger and Beautiful Skin JUST predating movements he could've cashed in on.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:50 (twenty years ago)

Matthew Steinke of Satisfact and the Mocket is another pioneer of the scene. Gogogoairheart have been around since '97 or so and they've failed to cash in. Luke Jenner's singing style is similar to Mike from Gogogo.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:55 (twenty years ago)

Has Vegan Bake Sale already been taken as a band name?

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:56 (twenty years ago)

there's tons of kids who do acknowledge their own punk background.

This is true! I didn't mean to sound as though I was disputing that; I guess I was just more set off by comments lumping Lightning Bolt in with crap like Pretty Girls Make Graves. Post-hardcore, as Danothermusic suggests, is a pretty useless label.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:00 (twenty years ago)

!!! persist in calling me Other Dan.
beautiful skin never doing a proper record as a full unit is one of the more unfortunate tragedies i've so far been close to.
but there is a collection of rehearsal/ live stuff coming out.

― duke fortune, Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:02 (twenty years ago)

ps. i'm moving back to brooklyn this week/next week. anyone got any HOT JOB LEADS? income will be urgent & key. should i just sell coke?

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:04 (twenty years ago)

if Marc Bolan had lived long enough to play w/Orange Juice it might sound something like Franz Ferdinand

If by Franz Ferdinand you mean Placebo, yes.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:04 (twenty years ago)

ian, where is the apartment?

― cutty (mcutt), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:05 (twenty years ago)

and yes, coke will be convenient. (for me)

― cutty (mcutt), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:06 (twenty years ago)

williamsburg. i am a hipster oh no oh no!!! i don't know the exact address. it overlooks teh river apparently? my friend bryce has done all of the apt. scouting, and i trust his judgement (i guess.)

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:08 (twenty years ago)

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=address&searchtype=address&address=151+Kent+Avenue&city=brooklyn&state=NY&zipcode=&search=++Search++

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:11 (twenty years ago)

ian, that's a big white building that used to be a school, i think. it's pretty nice, expensive, though. most of the apartments are huge and have nice terraces.

how do you plan on paying the rent if you don't even have a job? trust fundage?

― cutty (mcutt), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:16 (twenty years ago)

sounds like a good place to slang from tho

― duke vice, Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:21 (twenty years ago)

either that or he needs a wicked jump shot

― theycallmetatersalad (artdamages), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:23 (twenty years ago)

or a flow that would make damon dash say whoa

― cutty (mcutt), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:24 (twenty years ago)

STUDENT LOANS.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:32 (twenty years ago)

(and coke.)

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:34 (twenty years ago)

I've never heard Pretty Girls Make Graves, is that what people called post-hardcore? I certainly wasn't lumping anyone in with them(or wasn't intending to.) I started using the "post-hardcore" phrase when I saw people from hardcore scenes getting into post-punk type stuff and moving on. Metamatics being the one real example I experianced. To me you could always tell because there wasn't a lot of screaming(or at least a different kind of screaming) in post-punk, so in the mid to late 90s when you'd hear these new post-punk, no wave bands, they may have 90% of it down, but you could always tell the people had been in hardcore/punk bands before because the singer would start yelling all angry like.

Tim, I know all about Luke's relationship to GGGAH, everytime I'd play post-punk stuff at the party we did together or give him CDs, he'd say "oh yeah my friend in GGGAH turned me onto that/was into that." I really think the main difference is, personally, I think the Rapture are better pop songwriters with better hooks and a more exciting show/presence then GGGAH. I like GGGAH and admire them, but admiring them or Metamatics or whomever as a pioneer of what is basically a revival(which I'm not knocking) has about as much cred as me boasting about DJing and being a pioneer. This came up a few years ago on nyhappenings when I joked about how ahead of my time I was for playing A Certain Ratio at dance parties in 95, to which Evan Davies from WFMU responded "I played them in 1981." Oh yeah, good point.

but the point is what GGGAH did was cool, and what the Rapture did was cooler, but I'm still waiting for something that draws from the lessons of the past while giving me something exciting and new. That's just my own personal thing. Sorry this became such a weird rant, just came back from a ridiculous dinner. But people need the 80s throwbacks if only to show them there was an 80s so we can all learn our lessons good and bad. Excuse me, I have to go purge.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 1 August 2004 04:59 (twenty years ago)

oh man, you shoulda seen what I had for dinner. You see, my girlfriend and I had an appetizer, an entree and desert, while the rest of my family had the tasting menu, so I had to try bits of all of that. So i'm near delirious and don't even know where I was going with that last post. I think I forgot what the hell we were talking about. So forget most of that.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 1 August 2004 05:54 (twenty years ago)

Conclusion: new york centricism = dud

― Bunzzzzz O)))))))))))))))))) (ex machina), Monday, 2 August 2004 11:15 (twenty years ago)

omg 'love and pride'! franz ferdinand need to sound more like king!

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Monday, 2 August 2004 11:43 (twenty years ago)

For whatever it's worth, I reviewed an early Mocket EP (along with a couple other new wavey records, by Komputer and I think maybe the Need) in Spin when it came out -- 1996 or so, maybe? I liked a Satisfact EP around that time, too, and there were a few other bands, mostly in the Northwest apparently (one was Octant, I think), doing the same thing. (In the '90s update of my book Stairway to Hell, published in 1998, Boredoms Soul Discharge is at #100 out of 100 new albums; Mocket Bionic Parts is at #83; Thee Hydrogen Terrors Terror, Diplomacy & Public Relations is at #95.) But last time I listened to any of those mid '90s Northwest ones, they sounded way more generic than they'd at first seemed. I guess what excited me at the time is just that *any* bands would be trying to sound like cool early '80s robot-punk stuff then. But years later, after hundreds of other bands doing the same damn thing, it's hard for me to care so much....

― chuck, Monday, 2 August 2004 14:14 (twenty years ago)

Fuck no. Staisfact's "The Unwanted Sounds of..." is excellent still.

― Softly Weeping at the Oki Dog (Ben Boyer), Monday, 2 August 2004 15:43 (twenty years ago)

Softly Weeping at the Oki Dog, I commend your F-orts in posting a precious moments gif, etc. However, you should review a picture I shared on the noize dudes board, which surely you will find more adorable:
http://stainedglasscity.com/tip/dogani.gif

― thorJESUHOY (Thor), Monday, 2 August 2004 17:30 (twenty years ago)

Chuck: Since you like Thee Hydrogen Terrors, I'm curious to see what you think of Dan St. Jaques other bands. By and large, I think they're classic, especially Landed & Olneyville Sound System.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Monday, 2 August 2004 17:44 (twenty years ago)

when does 3 hydrogen terrors date from? the last album is like 97, 98 right?

― Typhoon is Coming!!! :O (ex machina), Monday, 2 August 2004 17:48 (twenty years ago)

i thought 94. maybe 95? not later than that, certainly.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Monday, 2 August 2004 17:55 (twenty years ago)

I guess what excited me at the time is just that *any* bands would be trying to sound like cool early '80s robot-punk stuff then. But years later, after hundreds of other bands doing the same damn thing, it's hard for me to care so much....

This is a good point -- it's been quite a long while since I have listened in to Mocket (that was quite a good album) or folks like, I dunno, Six Finger Satellite maybe?

A not-quite-robot-punk album but one that personally I think will forever be the great lost early eighties revamp is Romania's ReModel -- an explicitly Duran Duran-oriented two-dude effort on TeenBeat that came out in 1995. Completely out of sync with everything and anything and it still sounds great today, largely because they were interested in the arena-synth-rock approach spliced with cooler singing approaches somewhere between, dunno, John Foxx and Paul Haig maybe?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:03 (twenty years ago)

the guy from Romania I think worked with Tel Aviv, another teenbeat band that came out of Louisville then went retro/factory/new wave before many.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:17 (twenty years ago)

This just occurred to me, but what percentage of ILMers spent their formative years in the eighties? This could have something to do with the thread's original question.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:23 (twenty years ago)

Born in 1971, really got into pop music as such in 1981, so there ya go.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:24 (twenty years ago)

Has anyone mentioned Men's Recovery Project yet? They were ex-hardcore cats. When I saw them in 98 they were working a Kraftwerk/80's vibe. They were cool. I keep meaning to buy all their albums, but then I forget to.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:26 (twenty years ago)

I was a high schooler in the 80's. Born in 68. I certainly still listen to a LOT of the stuff that I listened to then. But I still have a lot of loves from the 70's too. The 70's was when I fell hard for all kinds of stuff. In the 70's I was all about beatles/donna summer/sabbath.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:29 (twenty years ago)

Almost everything that I love in music today is some sort of combination of sly stone/sabbath/summer/beatles. In rock and pop music, that is.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:31 (twenty years ago)

Scott, you need to hear the MRP album Bolides Over Basra. Copies are still floating around in stores, but it's unavailable through Load now. If you want, e-mail me and I can tape that and some other MRP stuff for you.

It's a really wonderful album, it's got a weird electro/dance vibe to it, and it's quite catchy despite the its generally skuzzy feel. Has some nice use of Middle Eastern-sounding modes, so it's strange but not noisy enough to be offputting. Songs range from laments for lost love, a description of an assassin's life, and buying olives.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago)

That's been a theme for me lately. Someone knocking the fact that I was DJing Missing Persons' Destination Unknown and Obsession by Animotion. No shame, I turned 5 years old in 1980 and have watched MTV since the beginning. Then it occured to me that after the last few years of playing 80s stuff to people my own age, the crowd is getting younger. I was djing last sunday and I realized, "hey, these kids probably don't even remember these songs," and many of them don't.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago)

I am eight years older than Scott, but I didn't really start caring about music until 1979, at which point I bought a seletcion of skinny ties almost as soon as I started buying Fabulous Poodles and Boomtown Rats albums. True story!

― chuck, Monday, 2 August 2004 23:39 (twenty years ago)

The Fabulous Poodles? You win, Chuck, who the hell were they?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:40 (twenty years ago)

That Romania album should be at my local goodwill by the end of the month, since I'm guessing the local stores won't buy it back (though I'm keeping three tracks on a CD-R)

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:54 (twenty years ago)

thirteen years pass...

I can hardly believe Ned hadn't heard of the Fabulous Poodles back in 2004 (unless this was some sort of a joke).

It recently occurred to me that I hear a lot of Peter Hammill in the vocals on "Mirror Star."

― _Rudipherous_, Saturday, 16 September 2017 15:40 (seven years ago)

My brother met Bob Marley while working at the Temple News in the late 70s/early 80s. He didn't know who Marley was at the time and I yelled at him about his not realizing who he had met, comparing him to the Beatles and Elvis or something like that. A little later he got to meet the Fabulous Poodles (who I liked) and he had one of them call me from the Temple News office. I was pretty skeptical at first, when I was on the phone with them. My brother has a nice glossy photo of himself holding up the phone (with me on the other end) surrounded by the Fabulous Poodles. Years later, he was like, yeah I missed a chance for a photo with Bob Marley, and I just have one with [relative nobodies] the Fabulous Poodles.

Still a good song.

― _Rudipherous_, Saturday, 16 September 2017 15:59 (seven years ago)

I still have no idea who they are.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 16 September 2017 16:04 (seven years ago)

At this point you should probably preserve that island of ignorance in your encyclopedic knowledge of similar music.

― _Rudipherous_, Saturday, 16 September 2017 16:06 (seven years ago)

I think their self-destructively bad graphic design didn't help them any.

https://ring.cdandlp.com/vendors2/photo_grande/114222335.jpg

― _Rudipherous_, Saturday, 16 September 2017 16:09 (seven years ago)

Yugh.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 16 September 2017 16:12 (seven years ago)

Some of their other cover art isn't so bad though.

Actually, even though I liked them, I never followed up and checked out their full albums, which may have been a mistake based on what I am hearing of them on youtube. Once I started getting into stuff like PiL and Joy Division and X and the Avengers, I think they seemed a bit dubious. I think these days I'd rather listen to the Fab Poos than the first two at least.

― _Rudipherous_, Saturday, 16 September 2017 16:31 (seven years ago)

Wikipedia says that for a time they were John Peel's favo(u)rite rock band.

― _Rudipherous_, Saturday, 16 September 2017 16:32 (seven years ago)

Ned, don't look!

Good live performance of Mirror Star. Things you notice years later: oh, this bass player is pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-cgAcmw17o

― _Rudipherous_, Saturday, 16 September 2017 16:40 (seven years ago)

I remember them. New wave!

― curmudgeon, Saturday, 16 September 2017 19:47 (seven years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.