Taking Sides: Pet Shop Boys vs. New Order

blue monday biggest 12" ever
and a football song is their most famous wtf?

but currently, i'd say pet shop boys because i've just spent a lot of time with the PopArt DVD. when will new order put their videos out on DVD??!?!

But I guess a lot of reasonable people do so maybe it's just me.

I guess their styles are fairly similar (though something about PSB's campiness bothers me--New Order could be campy too, but it never felt so intentional)--technically they're both emotional 80s dance-pop. But qualitatively...there are at most five Pet Shop Boys singles that I like as much as my least favorite New Order single. And comparing best to best, it's not even a question.

I Main Entry: camp
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by homosexuals
2 : a homosexual displaying camp
3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or out-of-date as to be considered amusing
4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical

I guess the PSB could fit in these definitions of camp (except maybe 1 and 2; I don't think they were overly effeminate, especially for the '80s) but to me all these qualities are part of what makes them good.

I would be "Disappointed" for me (I must admit it sounds a lot more PSB than NO to me). I also really like "Getting Away With It".

Still, I can't decide.

Also, the correct answer is "Patience of a Saint" even though "Get The Message" is the best song Electronic ever recorded.

Neil Tennant had been a pop music journalist/editor before starting PSB; presumably he had a chance to think about what sounded good or bad. But yes, it is staggering to remember that "West End Girls" was their debut.

And I do think "West End Girls" was PSB's finest moment.

"Rent"
"Jack The Lad"
"You Know Where You Went Wrong"
"I Want A Dog"
"We All Feel Better In The Dark"
"Some Speculation"
"King's Cross"
"One More Chance"
"Two Divided By Zero"
"Love Comes Quickly"
"Don Juan"

Can You Forgive Her?
Love Comes Quickly
I Don't Know What You Want...
How I Learned To Hate Rock'n'Roll
Miracles
So Hard
What Have I Done To Deserve This?
I Want A Lover
This Must Be The Place I Waited Years To Leave
One And One Make Five

"I will really never understand anyone who puts PSB even in the same league as New Order.

Amen. I mean c'mon, seriously.

(ducks)

OMG YES

Also "Yesterday When I Was Mad" and "I Wouldn't Normally Do THis Kind Of Thing"!!!!!

"Like Christmas time
When you were a kid
Say you love me
Say you always did"

It's the way he sings those last two lines which causes a sudden lump in my throat.

But, since so much of this has been focusing in on PSB, now the credit back to New Order and Barney's own perfect moments -- the end of "Regret":

"Just wait till tomorrow
I guess that's what they all say
Just before they fall apart."

ARGH and it's sung so perfectly ARGH...

I like NO, but I find them very overrated. Lyrically, Neil is about 1000X superior and Bernard's voice is pretty bad (which makes "Elegia" perfect!). Musically, when they get it right, they really hit it, but they have a lot of tentative and under-developped moments as well.

Dan I agree with you about Alternative ("Shameless"! "Some Speculation"! "Hey Headmaster"!), but I think the best PSB albums are Very, Behaviour, and Bilingual.

I think I like PSB more, though, really. They just do that melancholy/melodrama shit so well.

Missed the top 10 it may have, but I have recently realised that "I Don't Know What You Want But I Can't Give It Anymore" is absolutely perfect. How it only seemed "OK" at the time I have no idea.

Fucken right. That bit after the intro just before the vocals come in where it suddenly goes all minor key and sad for the first time, and the rising string bits before the chorus make the hairs on my neck stand up. I didn't realise it was so recent when I first heard it.

Also the video is great.

But my answer is PSB b/c I don't care for the first five years of New Order's output; their window of great radio singles was far smaller than PSB's. Also, Bernard Sumner never came up with a verse like this:

I'm always hoping / You'll be faithful / But you're not, I suppose
We've both given up smoking / 'Cause it's fatal / So whose matches are those?

"Chris came to me, and said I've got this great idea for a song. It's sort of like an oompah band. Well, I said no, and we forgot about it. A couple of month later, we turned the radio on and out came oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah < tune of 'Blue Monday' >."

btw 'West End Girls' wasn't the first single, it was 'Opportunities', wasn't it? It only became a hit with the re-release. (Although this is even more incredible, since it's a better song.)

Depends how far you want to stretch the definition of ballad, but:

Lonesome Tonight
Leave Me Alone
As it is When it Was
Elegia
Special
Run Wild
In a Lonely Place
1963

FWIW: i prefer new order, but then i prefer new order to breathing. i feel that PSBs are music for the head; new order music for the heart. but i can't qualify that particularly, and i'm quite sure many others would believe the exact opposite.

the problem with this argument is there's nothing new to say ...

We have to add up the total number of classic songs sung by both to come to the correct answer.

New Order:
Blue Monday
True Faith
World In Motion
Regret

Pet Shop Boys:
West End Girls
It's A Sin
What Have I Done To Deserve This?
Always On My Mind
Heart
Left To My Own Devices
So Hard
Where The Streets Have No Name-I Can't Take My Eyes Off You
Go West

The score is:
New Order - 4
Pet Shop Boys - 9

Therefore the correct answer is the Pet Shop Boys.

You name all those B-sides and you FORGET "Shameless" and "Euroboy," are you mad?

Dude, I like "Shameless", but remember you've always been way more gaga over that song than I have. "Euroboy" I would rate higher if "Some Speculation" didn't roll up right after it and blow it out of the water. If "Some Speculation" was a woman I would consider cheating on my wife with it.

(xpost "Rent" is their best single! Followed VERY CLOSELY by "Opportunities", "Love Comes Quickly" and "West End Girls"! And "New York City Boy" is about 500 times better than "Go West"!)

xpost

alright i'm done...

I guess it comes down to Pet Shop Boys when I want pop bliss and intellectual lyrics that make me pay attention, and New Order when I'm just in the mood to be lost in the music.

In what way isn't it a ballad? It's slow tempo (for New Order at least), dramatic as hell, contemplative, and the lyrics are very fitting (practically could be re-titled "The Ballad of Marilyn and Johnny").

In what way isn't it a ballad? It's slow tempo (for New Order at least), dramatic as hell, contemplative, and the lyrics are very fitting (practically could be re-titled "The Ballad of Marilyn and Johnny").

You're kidding, right? "1963" is at a faster tempo than all of the following songs:

Ceremony
the original Confusion
Blue Monday
Subculture
Shellshock
State Of The Nation
Bizarre Love Triangle
True Faith
Touched By The Hand Of God
Run

of course, i forget how PSBs produced section 25, thus leading obliquely to the creation of acid house. and all that groundbreaking work with arthur baker, john robie et al :)

damn, i'm really trying to be as non-partisan as possible but COME ON, HOW CAN THE PET SHOP BOYS EVER BE BETTER THAN NEW ORDER?

gaaaaaah, i couldn't help that. sorry.

Except I omitted a song from the list of classic Pet Shop Boys songs, namely:
It's Alright

Therefore the final score is:
New Order - 4
Pet Shop Boys - 10

The correct answer remains The Pet Shop Boys, as they have recorded six more classic songs than New Order.

GAH I LOVE THEM BOTH.

(xpost the remix of "It's Alright" on I think the "Where The Streets Have No Name" single trumps the _Introspective_ version handily)

Maybe, but it's not propulsive in the slightest. It's fairly downbeat. And it still has all those other qualities I listed.

I think of that list, "Run" might count as a ballad as well.

Don Lockwood your calculations are deeply incorrect/subjective, but perhaps you are well aware of this.

Are New Order going to do a live soundtrack to Citizen Kane?

I grew up a MAJOR New Order fanboy and own pretty much everything they ever did. Lately I've come to the sad realization that with a few notable exceptions ("Blue Monday", "Regret", "Bizarre Love Triangle", PC&L, Technique) they really haven't held up as well as I'd have expected. I still love 'em of course, but I just don't listen to them very often anymore. The embarassing lyrics of things like "1963" and "Love Vigilantes" aren't so easily shrugged off anymore.

But I will say that having revisited Very and Bilingual just last week, I'm also in full-PSB-appreciation mode. They are amazing songwriters in every respect. And the hooks. And the energy. And the production.

Love them both, but PSB by a fair distance.

mind you: the very fact we've been reduced to such idiot subjectivity does prove my theory: that this is a pointless argument.

new order are still better, though.

Pet Shop Boys:
Suburbia
Rent
Domino Dancing
Can You Forgive Her?
Se A Vida (That's The Way Life Is)
Before
A Red Letter Day
Somewhere
You Only Say You Love Me When You're Drunk
Miracles

New Order:
Crystal

Final scores:
Pet Shop Boys - 10
New Order - 1

Therefore the Pet Shop Boys remain triumphant, as they have recorded nine more "good" songs than New Order.

Ah, now I will grant you this several times over.

yeah psb's made one of the greatest hits comps of all time while new order, despite a few attempts now, have yet to make one that works for me really

Not even the original Substance? Wow.

When I made that comment above, I was thinking "ballad" = "slow dancing song", and from NO there's little to choose from there.

You've still got "Lonesome Tonight," "Run Wild," and if you're feeling adventurous with your slow dancing, "Elegia" and "In a Lonely Place."

And I couldn't really imagine slow dancing to the sounds of a man hoarking up a gob of phlegm (even though the song is awesome).

gillian gilbert is pronounced "jillian"

gillian welch is pronounced "pile of shit"

In terms of variety or quality?

Not that I'd agree with either, I just need to know which I'm arguing here.

And I couldn't really imagine slow dancing to the sounds of a man hoarking up a gob of phlegm (even though the song is awesome).

Haha, that's nothing, try dancing to the live version with the line "when you reached out in your sleep / and you saw my big black cock."

I'd still be honored to slow dance to either. The "Thieves Like Us" / "Lonesome Tonight" is the most romantic sounding 12" I've ever heard--not necessarily in lyrical content (though for TLU at least that applies too) but just in how lush, gorgeous and dramatic the sound is. It's heavenly.

In terms of variety or quality?

A bit of both, but moreso variety. NO don't have an epic, sweeping ballad like "Jealousy", for instance. None of their ballads are very ... romantic, shall we say.

I'd be honoured to slow dance to NO as well, but their is an atypical style of balladry -- I can't imagine people slow dancing to a NO ballad at a high school dance (not so for PSB).

Don't think I've heard "Jealousy" (unless it's one of those tracks on the second half of Complete Discopgrahy that I couldn't care less about) but I mean, not having one single excellent ballad that you can slow dance to and not feel stupid about hardly entails an automatic lack of diversity. Put "Elegia" up against "Blue Monday" up against "Every Little Counts" up against "Ceremony" up against "Fine Time" up against "Sunrise"--blindly I doubt you could even discern that any two of those songs were by the same band.

a good rule for this kind of thread would be that participants have a familiarity of the bands' outputs before stating an opinion. otherwise it doesn't make much sense to be so adamant and opinionated, does it?

Now, what about TS over the band name : PSB vs NO?
Both names are crap, but anything with "boys" in it is automatically crappier, so I pick New Order.

(xpost to Dr. Bill)

Anyway, I'm not attacking PSB with this ballad/diversity business, I'm defending New Order.

i'm sure they're grateful

I disagree about "Ceremony" (though I guess it's not really totally a New Order song anyway--let's use "Dreams Never End" instead) but I guess you're mostly right about "Sunrise" and "Elegia". I should've said "Love Vigilantes" instead of "Sunrise".

Are you refering to Hook's base solos? If so, I have to disagree because I think they're a BIG contribution for the greatness of New Order. Just imagine True Faith with no bass.

(I don't really regard Hook's bass as a blight on NO's sound; it's great on True Faith and the long version of perfect Kiss)

(I like how this thread quickly went from 'taking sides' to PROVE WHO IS TEH BEST WITH REASONING. If the debate was this passionate when one of the bands was shit I'd probably find it quiet distressing.)

If you consider these to be good lyrics then I can't help you.
To me it reads/sounds like something a grade school kid would write...

It was January, 1963
When Johnny came home with a gift for me
He said I bought it for you because I love you
And I bought it for you because it's your birthday, too
He was so very nice, he was so very kind
To think of me at this point in time
I used to think of him, he used think of me
He told me to close my eyes
My gift would be a great surprise
I saw tears were in his eyes
He never meant to hurt me
Oh, God, Johnny, don't point that gun at me
There's so many ways our lives have changed
But please, I beg, don't do this to me
Johnny, don't point that gun at me
Can I save my life at any price?
For God's sake won't you listen to me?

And though he was ashamed that he had took a life
Johnny came home with another wife
And he often remembered how it used to be
Before that special occasion, 1963
There was too many ways that you could kill someone
Like in a love affair, when the love is gone
He told me to close my eyes
My gift would be a great surprise
I saw hatred in his eyes
He never meant to hurt me
Oh, God, Johnny, don't point that gun at me
There's so many ways our lives have changed
But please, I beg, don't do this to me
Johnny, you keep on using me
Can I change my life for any price?
Oh, Johnny, won't you listen to me?

He told me to close my eyes
My gift would be a great surprise
I saw hatred in his eyes
But he never meant to hurt me
Oh, God, Johnny, don't point that gun at me
There's so many ways our lives have changed
But please, I beg, don't do this to me
Johnny, you keep on using me
Can I change my life for any price?
Oh, Johnny, won't you listen to me?

I just want you to be mine,
I don't want this world to shine
I don't want this bridge to burn
Oh, Johnny, do you miss me?
I just want to feel for you
I will always feel for you...

The way this is sung is one of the greatest things in the universe.

I often wonder what bands people who complain about New Order's lyrics actually listen to. When they say "old New Order" I think about songs like "Love Vigilantes", "Confusion", "Subculture", "Blue Monday", "Your Silent Face", "Everything's Gone Green" and "Bizarre Love Triangle" and wonder exactly when this alleged drop-off in lyrical quality is supposed to have taken place.

and Dan, there's nothing wrong with the lyrics to "Blue Monday" or "Everything's Gone Green" as far as I can see, other than perhaps being vague and forgettable. But that's actually an attribute as far as New Order is (and I am) concerned.

Admittely New Order has never had strong lyrics, but "1963" just strikes me as especially bad.

On further reflection I think it may be that they're written to be a very emotional -- almost melodramatic -- retelling of events. and Barney's blase, detached vocal (that normally works so well with his usually cryptic, vague lyrics) just sounds completely at odds with the song. Perhaps it's not the lyrics themselves so much as the delivery of said lyrics.

I dunno. It's just up there with "Love Vigilantes" and "Ruined In A Day" as my least-liked/most-hated NO track

no! that's the *point* ... it's all in the ambiguity ... and really, come on:

There are too many ways that you can kill someone
Like in a love affair, when the love is gone

that is just perfect. isn't it?

well, i think so.

'89, essentially. There were some great lyrics on Technique but there were some terrible ones ("Mr. Disco," ugh). Electronic cemented it.

I do agree that pre-'89 Barney wrote some truly great lyrics--all the songs you mentioned, especially "Bizarre Love Triangle" and "Blue Monday," have fine lyrics. I prefer BLT and "Temptation" to anything Ian Curtis ever wrote. And even the god awful stuff he writes now is still enjoyable in its own way, but you gotta admit that it's some seriously bad stuff. Embracing that just comes with the territory of being a New Order fan.

hahahaha
oh man

I was just going to write that -- Barney was useless in attempting to write dark, paranoid lyrics like Ian ("The Him" WTF?? "White circles, black lines surround me/ Reborn, so plain my eyes see" etc., almost every line in the song is stilted and non-sensical).

Once he started to be silly and wrote about whatever stupid shit came to mind, things definitely improved. It's fun to sing along to "Your Silent Face" as long as you don't think too hard about what the words mean.

Those who came before me
Lived through their vocations
From the past until completion
They'll turn away no more

(...Er, what?)

"We All stand" isn't great, "5 8 6" is pretty good

They both repeat the same phrase over and over and over like they ran out of words at the supermarket and had to make do with the same banal phrase over and over again.

"Your Silent Face" is intentionally ridiculous

Which is code for "I like this song but the lyrics suck, so I will handwave it away because it goes against my argument".

how could you compare any of these to "here comes love / it's like honey / you can buy it with money" or "the sea was very rough / it made me feel sick / but I like that kinda stuff / it beats arithmetic"?

I like walking in the park
When it gets late at night
I move `round in the dark
And leave when it gets light

[...]

When I walked through the door
My wife she lay upon the floor
And with tears her eyes were sore
I did not know why

[...]

You were me and I was you
This world of ours it felt brand new
You took me a little further...
I heard it all before, I've heard it all before
I can't hear it anymore
Your hair was long, your eyes was blue
Guess what I'm gonna do to you

*cringe*

"it's just something i know
the answer's not there
it comes and it goes
it frightens me"

the intensity with which he sings this - especially on taras unspellable - suggests that whatever the fuck he's on about, he means it. man. and it unsettles me no end.

Did I say that? I said precisely the opposite actually - the precise words are important because they're (along with melody, timbre, phrasing etc) what creates the feeling he's after. The only work with the music though. Because that's what they're supposed to do. Because that's how he writes.

Take the music away, look for deep and hidden meaning or even good grammar and you won't find it.

Electro-burbling background track + lyric you could sing in your sleep = fun song to sing along to. As I mentioned above, just don't pay attention to the words coming out of your mouth. There's no point to it.

(xpost x2)

although the song in question (YSF) has that magnificent, magnificent final couplet: that's the point about that lyric, that text; it's wilfully destroyed by barney at the very end.

hmm. i remember "shopping" as a relatively clever deconstruction of market capitalism through a kind of reductive method ... perhaps i'm wrong and it was just shit.

Pet Shop Boys: Search and Destroy
The Pet Shop Boys' first twenty singles...

There doesn't seem to be anything special about this couplet when I see it written out like that - but again, it's all in the delivery: every time I listen to the song, I'm right there on the darkening beach with Neil, staring at that faithless lover.

(...Er, what?)

Not brilliant but hardly cringe-worthy, and not even close to hystercailly bad.

They both repeat the same phrase over and over and over like they ran out of words at the supermarket and had to make do with the same banal phrase over and over again.

So?

Which is code for "I like this song but the lyrics suck, so I will handwave it away because it goes against my argument".

Yeah I'm sure they meant "you caught me at a bad time / so why don't you piss off" in complete earnestness. Would you also argue that "Every Little Counts" is unintentionally ridiculous?

a bunch of Low-Life lyrics that are kinda dumb

Yeah, fine, but these are still way more tolerable than most of what came afterwards.
Ok maybe one or two songs per album are thought out, but his modus operandi is to usually to try and capture a feeling, rather than make sense/make great poetry. I think he does this brilliantly.

I think he did this brilliantly (from '82-'87 or so) but now only does it occasionally. The power of his songwriting got diluted, I feel, so it makes me lass compelled to excuse the cringe-worthy lyrics.

One thing Dan and I can agree on--"Domino Dancing" is fucking HORRIBLE.

1st prize: "This is your reward-day."

2nd prize: "You should be kissing him instead of dissing him like a punk."

3rd prize: "I don't like to compete, or talk street street street."

I really believe the PSB have no bad lyrics. Tennant is, in my opinion, not only brilliant but consistent as a lyricist. I don't remember anything stupid or embarrassing (unlike Morrissey, for instance) in
any of his songs.

Back to Sumner though, I think he's very interesting. He's voice is mediocre, yet he can sing really plain stuff like "I feel so extraordinary..." and make you feel extraordinary! I completely agree with Dr. Bill and Dan on this one.

Oh, and "Domino Dancing" is great. And what a video!

But the example you cite is perfect, Tim! It's again in HOW he sings it that makes it (compare that to Velocity Girl's cover of the same song).

It must be said that the last few minutes of the Substance version of "Perfect Kiss" are utterly fucking wonderful. Wait, fuck that, the entire song is wonderful.

I'd say a lot of people who like hiphop listen to lyrics. I know *I* listen to lyrics, especially Neil's, mostly cause I like to sing along. Bad ones won't necessarly make me dislike a song, but good ones or fun ones combined to good music make me appreciate the song this much more.

Anyone catching the Unity tour? I had these tickets for THREE years, after all the postponements, it's finally happening. I saw the MSG show and it was pretty amazing, like one of the greatest shows I've ever seen. (At minimum, it was visually among the very best I've seen. I found myself rarely looking at the bands and staring right at the awesome backdrops. I honestly hope they preserved the shows on video for posterity.)

Correction, two years and 7 months, but still a pretty long time. Glad I held on to them, the prices really went through the roof during the interim.

I have tickets to both nights at the Hollywood Bowl.

To go back to the original thread question, I am going to see New Order. I'm pretty much indifferent to Pet Shop Boys.

FWIW, as a visual spectacle, Pet Shop Boys will be mind blowing, so even if you're indifferent, I'd advise not missing them.

Oh, I'm not planning on missing anything. I'm really looking forward to the shows.

I've seen both bands a bunch in recent years so decided to sit this one out. all the rescheduling didn't help.

I haven't seen New Order since 1986, unless seeing Peter Hook and the Light last month counts.

It was my first time seeing other. I wish I caught New Order when Peter Hook was still in the band, but Tom Chapman is certainly no slouch.

*seeing either

I'm trying to temper my expectations. It's not the same band that blew my mind when I first saw them in 85.

new order these days is pretty much a nostalgia act, but in some ways that makes them a more reliable live band.

I didn't realize Gillian Gilbert hadn't been with the band for ten years when they toured in 2011 without Hook. So at least she's back.

How did their shows look in 1985? Were they big spectacles?

Oh hell no. At least not when I saw them, which was at a small venue in Denver. Minimal lighting, no real stage show, very little conversation. Hooky came out shirtless and glowering, I don't think Gillian looked up once. Bernard did throw in his little asides (e.g., "This song is about shafting"). They opened with "Sunrise," which was unexpected and absolute fire, and didn't stop till they reached the end of the second encore we were lucky to get.

I got the email that my tickets are ready and I totally forgot I bought them all those years back! It said "do you want to sell them" and i was like oh whaattttttt? I looked and my section is going for $400 at the lowest so im like hell yah. Hopefully I make some bank on these things. Thanks Bruce Springsteen!

I've seen New Order three times (first times btw) since 2015 and they weren't nostalgia. Sumner's voice got steadily worse, but I admired their dogged commitment to playing new songs: "Academic" and "Tutti Frutti" and other M:C songs still appear on their set lists. And I don't miss Hook. At all.

I mean, this is a band whose M.O. consists of moving on despite the death or firing of crucial membrs.

I won't pay to see Hook but saw some footage from the latest tour and he sounded pretty great

How was Barney's voice, bird? I've heard it's on and off, not so much steadily declining?

I can't understand how Recreation/ Entertainment, or whatever the last live album is called, got released. Terrible vocals.

I thought he was definitely rough in spots, but strangely, when I listened to the video I took this morning, he sounded mostly good. (The only rough vocals that stood out were on the Joy Division encores.)

To be fair he's also close to 70. I don't think I've really seen much video or photos of them in recent years, so seeing him and Stephen Morris sporting the glasses reminded me that they're getting up there in years.

Neil Tennant's voice remains ageless - for the first two numbers, they had these masks/helmets on and I actually wondered if it was all pre-recorded, but once they took them off, it was pretty clear he was singing. Again, haven't seen them in recent years, so I didn't realize what hair Tennant had left had gone completely white.

Sumner was pretty ragged in Miami in January '20: he sounded like he was pushing his vocals through his teeth.

Tennant's rationed his limited range so well over 30 years that I'm not surprised he still sounds okay (I last PSB in 2009).

Read this feature from 1989 in The Chicago Reader and was surprised that Jon Pareles was so down on the band (and dance music in general). Apparently a critic for The Chicago Tribune even dismissed the band (not Kot).

After reading that article and its brief description of their tour at the time, I found this clip from another one of those shows. Pretty much as described (the only minor difference is that Hook keeps his hair down).

Also found this show from 1985, which reflect's jimbeaux's description of the one he saw around that time.

About the vocals:

They don’t attempt to project emotion so much as they stifle or reject it.

waht

Sumner's vocals are horrible. New Order is easily my favorite band but I won't pay to see them again. Well, i'd pay to see them again if they played instrumentals but that will never happen. I wonder if he's actually heard recordings of his vocals in the last 10 years.

His vocals, horrible and not horrible, do nothing but project emotion.

I'm listening to Low-Life - towards the end now, and even here he actually strains to reach some high notes. I dig it though, it brings to mind David Byrne in something like Stop Making Sense, where (in Sumner's case) he's this really plain and ordinary guy and dance and the music becomes his deliverance to his every repressed emotion - like the strain kind of suggests someone who's usually bottled up and is finally liberated.

i'm specifically talking about live vocals, not recorded vocals.

Yeah I know - when I was listening to that happen on a record from their heyday, it just seemed to drive home the point that he was never a technically smooth vocalist.

Right, and while i've loved/tolerated his imperfections on studio recordings, his voice live is just not good enough to be up on stage anymore. He didn't learn to use his voice properly until 87ish, and didn't get really good until Technique/Electronic (89/90).

And I don't miss Hook. At all.

I saw him last month and he was surprisingly great. And to me, New Order without Peter Hook is . . . I don't know, pick your comparison. Pink Floyd without Roger Waters. Listenable enough, and recognizable, but not the same thing.

What was the first major band to bifurcate into two feuding entities drawing from the same catalog/musical history? Was it Pink Floyd? I know there were two UB40s for a long while, essentially two Supertramps ...

Not the first and they didn't feud, but there were two (English) Beats until Ranking Roger died. I think they were okay with more for practical reasons - like by that point Dave and Roger were based on opposite sides of the Atlantic and geographically it was easier if either one didn't have to constantly fly overseas to tour.

FWIW, everyone I knew who saw Hook on his recent tour celebrating Joy Division said it was really good.

*okay with it

There was Yes and the Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe supergroup.

The real answer is like the Drifters or the Coasters (or numerous other '50s groups) back in the '60s.

To be clear: Sumner live is dreadful beyond belief, but I loved him as studio vocalist because he fulfilled every duty I want from most dance vocalists: anonymous enough to sound like you and me.

Even the 1989 Reader article defending him said this about Sumner:

Sumner, on the other hand, appeared on stage looking like someone who had just stepped off the sand at Grand Beach. He wore a pale blue New Order-tour T-shirt and long pale blue shorts—almost knee length—above Converse high-tops. Unsatisfied merely standing at the mike but uncomfortable with the usual rock-star poses, he circled with his arms out, like a child playing airplane, during the more transcendent moments; then he doubled over, hand on knee, to sing into the microphone during moments that demanded a more pained expression. Sumner doesn’t work a crowd; he attempts to charm it with an almost cloying ineptitude. For a band whose music is so successfully contrived on record, it is perhaps the worst possible impression to give an audience.

He's always alternated between awkwardness and dickishness.

and he still makes those circles lol

I saw this tour in Brooklyn last week. I hate to badmouth my elders but Bernard Sumner sucked. Was also very disappointed that Peter Hook was not in the band. I don’t follow the news so that was a surprise. Hearing second hand from someone who knows the band, apparently New Order had bad sound? IDK to me they were just lame.

Neil Tennant has an amazingly flat head but he was great, as a vocalist and as a front person

peter hook hasn't been in new order in 15 years! it's a shame but that's how it is

I don’t know why that is and I don’t know why so many people in this thread are so happy about never seeing him again.. is he a bad drunk or something?

I'm not happy about not seeing him again -- I just heard no audible difference in their sound. The new bloke learned his bass lines. I've seen three times since his departure and apart from the collapse of Sumner's singing they sound fine.

although haha that's a pretty big thing, I'll admit!

The new guy was good and did duplicate the original bass lines, yet… something was missing bc you can’t duplicate the man. But who cares, for me New Order are the records not the live presentation.

otm

So I wasn't able to make Friday's show at the Bowl, but I was there Saturday. Paul Oakenfold warmed up the crowd. New Order played their set first (apparently the bands are alternating spots), then more Oakenfold, then Pet Shop Boys. It was . . . well, shit, it was amazing. New Order opened with "Regret." They played mostly the same set they had played the night before, but substituted "Decades" for "Sub-culture," which brought me to tears. And Pet Shop Boys absolutely brought it, visually and musically. I am so glad I was able to see this show, in such a great venue, with such an appreciative crowd (both nights were sold out, in a venue that seats 17,500). Very positive energy all around. Not bad for a bunch of 60-plus year olds.

New Order's setlist:

Regret
Age of Consent
Ceremony
Academic
Your Silent Face
Guilt Is a Useless Emotion
Bizarre Love Triangle
Plastic
True Faith
Blue Monday
Temptation
Decades

Encore:
California Dreamin'
Love Will Tear Us Apart

Pet Shop Boys' setlist:

Suburbia
Can You Forgive Her?
Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)
Where the Streets Have No Name (I Can't Take My Eyes Off You)
Rent
I Don't Know What You Want but I Can't Give It Any More
Left to My Own Devices
Domino Dancing
Love Comes Quickly
Losing My Mind
You Were Always on My Mind
Dreamland
Heart
It's Alright
Vocal
It's a Sin

Encore:
West End Girls
Being Boring

I don’t know why that is

hook & sumner had always kinda hated each other but permanently fell out sometime around 2007, leading to new order breaking up for a few years. eventually the rest reformed the band without hook and with gilbert back in the lineup

I do miss Hooky's glowering presence. He was a big part of their stage persona back in the day.

it's the sort of beef where they've both aired a million petty issues in the press but it's probably telling that the rest of the band can manage to get along with sumner

It is what it is. Missing Hook did not detract from hearing Steve Morris knock out the intro to "Decades." I never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.

idk that there was even a specific reason for the split either, hook publicly announced he'd quit the band and caught the rest offguard. at the time i think the rest were frustrated with him because he wasn't interested in working on new music like they'd planned?

You have two jerks in the band, one of whom is less politic. He lost.

Hook comes off surprisingly personable in interviews. Sumner generally comes across as awkward.

By the way, props to Pet Shop Boys. Their show is immaculately crafted and superbly entertaining.

Hook's charming as hell and probably honest as far as THAT goes, but these dudes have been snapping turtles since 1977.

Alfred otm

I also remember reading something about Hook's sobriety and Sumner's unwillingness to accept that. I thought, "That may have been la gota que colmó el vaso."

Glad you enjoyed it jimbeaux! Again, I was floored by the visuals by both acts. I had a great seat, but I imagine the visuals were especially helpful for those further out and more than made up for the distance. They really know how to make the most of a large venue.

We had decent seats--section D, which is pavilion level 1, row 15. These days, I almost never go to a show that I can't get up front for, but this was an exeption.

I saw them in Minneapolis last weekend and it was indeed a great show. Pet Shop Boys came on first and were just incredible. I was surprised how good Neil sounded throughout. It was close to a perfect set. I didn't expect songs like Can You Forgive Her, I Don't Know What You Want and So Hard (especially the latter as Chris apparently never liked it). I would have maybe swapped out Dreamland for The Pop Kids, but I can't complain really. They nailed it and it was worth the wait.

New Order were better than I thought they would be. Bernard's voice can sometimes be an issue, but he just about pulled it off. Regret is the perfect opener and made me emotional immediately. Before they did the encore they played True Faith, Blue Monday and Temptation which was almost too much. Your Silent Face was probably the highlight. It sounded huge and the song really works with the limitations of Bernard's voice. Their set wasn't quite as flawless as the two Music Complete songs kinda dragged (especially Plastic). When they did the Music Complete outtake Be The Rebel (I still can't remember how that song goes) you could feel them losing the audience a bit. People got back on board with the hits towards the end. It was certainly a better show than the other time I saw them at Glastonbury 2005. No Jet Stream this time and more importantly, no Keith Allen.

is he a bad drunk or something?

There's a fine anecdote in Hook's NO book about one of the last times the band played with him in it, about Bernard coming backstage or to a wrap dinner or w/e, being grumpy and poisonous and then leaving having taken out his mood on everyone else. Hook bemoans the behaviour, denouncing it personally and professionally, and the crewmembers agree... before one says "but Hooky, when you were drinking, you were worse."

As a person who has listened to at least 100 live new order bootlegs from 82-07, I can confidently say, Bernard Sumner is the leading cause of shambolic live shows and his talent as a live singer is close to non-existent. He can't remember lyrics, he whoops like a hyena (though less lately). Peter Hook ruins the show less often but his late-era obsession with yelling CMON! and his stupid posing are obnoxious to this fan. Bernard is definitely the weak link live, though. The band would be better if he never sang, imo, and just focused on guitar.

He still fucks up the lyrics regularly.

if New Order have MVPs, it's Morris and Gilbert. I've seen them three times since 2016 and each time they'd updated the sonics while playing the same lines -- and they never miss.

Which reminds me of something, honestly. You get people claiming to this day that 'oh it's not the same without Peter' etc. I'd like to know how many of them said 'It's not the same without Gillian' when she wasn't there, and if not, why not.

Ned, I remember watching the Finsbury Park DVD and saying exactly that.

Gillian is amazing. She just does her thing, consistently well.

As for Steve, as my son who came with me that night said, "He is the pocket."

Several pockets and an overcoat.

I can't think of a more precise drummer, tbh. Not only precise, though, but powerful. He drives the bus.

I remember hearing a bootleg from about 85 where Sumner flubs the lyrics to "Face Up"

Don't let anybody tell you what you should do
Because it's not that way
Don't let anybody tell you what you should do
Because it isn't okay

LOL

Yeah that was a fine show and a half last night here in SF. Gotta say that for all the complaints I'm reading here and elsewhere about Sumner's voice...it wasn't that bad? I mean, in comparison, Bryan Ferry has absolutely lost his range, having seen him with Roxy at the same venue a couple of weeks back; while there were a couple of 'woo' moments and it's definitely thinner it wasn't some weird disaster and the whole set was excellent. As were the PSBs -- both of the bands had amazing light/visual setups, it must be said. It was a little funny realizing that Neil was going to be the more arena-rock-frontman of the evening, we got a fair amount of "SAN FRAN-CIS-CO!" moments. NO's set leaned a little more into surprises and reinventions -- that "Subculture" was quite incredible -- but the PSBs going full imperial phase plus a couple of extra moments made sense for an arena show, really.

My revelation is that he’s doing a bit in “The Perfect Kiss”, which makes me “get” it better

I really liked how PSB built up their visuals. For the first two numbers, I wondered if it was going to be the same minimalist line graphic moving in the background, but then it just builds and builds from one number to the next. The highlight was when it looked like the air around them was rippling. Reminded me of the comics I used to read where the fabric of reality could literally be a fabric that would move around like that.

Yeah, the visuals gradually built upon themselves. I loved the costumes they came out in, including the masks. For two songs, Neil just stood there, holding the mike stand with both hands, not moving, with the mask. Very striking.

Not sure whether they're wearing them at every gig.

https://www.petshopboys.co.uk/media/article-images/1600/2c4aa2bf31c9890bc98a4a33adf12e13.jpg

They looked cooler on stage LOL

Yep, had 'em last night.

would love to see Barney, Gillian, Steven, and Phil done up like that tbh

And Tom just rocking out on bass

went to the first night of the hollywood bowl concerts, my first time seeing either band live. new order were very good and i appreciated the range of material they drew from (also the 'california dreamin'' encore was an unexpected and fun surprise), but the PSBs, who played first that night, were just INCREDIBLY good - i actually got choked up more than once during their set. a friend remarked afterwards that he wished they'd rolled liza out during the "losing my mind" cover, and i was like "imagine the sound of 10,000 gay men's heads exploding in unison" lol

iirc gillian drew the biggest applause when bernard was introducing the individual band members

I must say, having seen PSB three times in one of their biggest and most persistent American markets (i.e. South Florida, their energy and performances have never waned.

*close parenthesis there

How many of you other folks had never seen either act before? NO has been solid the last several times I saw them (twice with Hook but not Gillian, iirc twice with Gillian but not Hook; no sonic difference between the two line-ups, fwiw), but PSB have been great fun every time I've seen them. Maybe five times? Always great lights, always great set lists, always great costumes. I'm glad so many folks are turning out for this tour!

It was my first time seeing Pet Shop Boys, and my first time seeing New Order since 86.

xp It was my first time seeing either.

First time seeing PSB and my second time seeing New Order.

Was anyone else hoping for Getting Away With It during one of the sets?

When I last saw Johnny Marr he actually did "Getting Away With It."

Yeah, same here. Per a comment from Daniel Barassi aka the legendary BRAT of Depeche Mode webmaster fame, apparently the only time it's ever been done 'properly' ie with Bernard, Johnny AND Neil were the opening shows they did for Depeche at Dodger Stadium in 1990. Which...I was lucky enough to see and remember very well.

I was there too.

I have seen Depeche Mode more than any other band, New Order is also in the top five. Sold this round of tickets two years ago.