The Thread Where We List The People Who Put Kanye As Their Token Rap Album on an indiecentric top 10 2004 list

The Arcade Fire -- Funeral -- Merge
Interpol -- Antics -- Matador
TV on the Radio -- Desperate Youth, Blood Thirsty Babes -- Touch & Go
Air -- Talkie Walkie - Astralwerks
Sonic Youth -- Sonic Nurse -- Geffen
Brian Wilson -- Smile - Nonesuch
Ron Sexsmith -- Retriever - Nettwerk
Animal Collective -- Sung Tongs -- Fat Cat
Modest Mouse -- Good News For People Who Love Bad News -- Epic
Kanye West -- The College Dropout -- Rocafella

As far as selling units goes, no one spent more time at the cash registers than Usher, who jumped from the crunk-addled “Yeah!” (formulated with omnipresent party machine Lil Jon) to his considerably creamier duet with Alicia Keys, “My Boo,” with the greatest of ease. He was the toast of R&B in 2004. Naw, make that the toast of all commercial music. His bazillion-selling Confessions even threatened to diminish the impact of Kanye West’s laudably gangsta-free instant hip-hop classic College Dropout. And it did succeed in making the much ballyhooed return of Destiny’s Child seem parochial and unnecessary.

...

Frankly, I have no idea where rock is going, and judging from what happened in 2004, no one else does either. In a perfect world, gifted prog-metal practitioners Coheed and Cambria, genteel strutters the Walkmen and sui generis indie/electronic explorers TV on the Radio would carry the day, while veteran practitioners of melodic weirdness like Modest Mouse and the reconfigured Wilco would keep attracting more and more believers to their sonic cults. What’s really happening, however, is that Dorian Gray wannabes U2 are poised to dominate the rock ’n’ roll conversation once again with their latest glossy-but-well-meaning studio production, How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb, while Green Day mesmerizes legions of kinda-sorta punky suburban youth with American Idiot (a surprisingly vigorous anti-Bushie screed) and guileless Jay-Z buddies Linkin Park pound whatever rock fans are left into beat-heavy submission.

As for the distressingly influential tween demographic, those kiddies who aren’t lapped up by tattooed pop goths Good Charlotte have either renewed their love affair with oh-so-professional grrrl rocker Avril Lavigne or have been duped by tone-deaf lip-syncher Ashlee Simpson.

xxpst

I can't believe he missed the chance to mention how pop-music now consists of a simple synthesizer-generated theme repeated ad naseum!

laudibly gangsta-free

Where's my gun?

In what world is Coheed and Cambria preferable to FUCKING ANYTHING, for that metter?

1. The Walkmen, Bows + Arrows
2. Interpol, Antics
3. Modest Mouse, Good News For People Who Love Bad News
4. Kanye West, The College Dropout
5. The Arcade Fire, Funeral
6. Trashcan Sinatras, Weightlifting
7. Elliott Smith, From A Basement On The Hill
8. Julie Doiron, Goodnight Nobody
9. Snow Patrol, Final Straw
10. Sufjan Stevens, Seven Swans

(Josh also gives love to Jadakiss's laudibly gangsta-free "Why" in his singles list)

Keith Phipps, Onion A.V. Club
1. The Streets, A Grand Don't Come For Free
2. Modest Mouse, Good News For People Who Love Bad News
3. Loretta Lynn, Van Lear Rose
4. Kanye West, The College Dropout
5. U2, How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb
6. Brian Wilson, Smile
7. Nellie McKay, Get Away From Me
8. The Hives, Tyrannosaurus Hives
9. Devendra Banhart, Niño Rojo
10. Wilco, A Ghost Is Born

(Phipps give honorable mentions to the laudibly gangsta-free Madvilliany and Roots releases)

let's see if we can make this an annual ILX tradition!

Not DeRo, though: He lists Kanye AND the Roots!!

he's a drummer! ?uestlove gets love!

that's grime!

Maybe it's reflexive hate against both Depeche and hip-hop. (Stranger has occurred.)

(X-post)

(xp stevie: I really dreaded this, y'know)

STEPHEN DEUSNER, Pitchfork

1. Arcade Fire: Funeral
2. Nellie McKay: Get Away from Me
3. Loretta Lynn: Van Lear Rose
4. Scissor Sisters: Scissor Sisters
5. Ted Leo and the Pharmacists: Shake the Sheet
6. Annie: Anniemal
7. Wilson: Brian: SMiLE!
8. Kanye West: The College Dropout
9. Iron & Wine: Our Endless: Numbered Days
10. AC Newman: The Slow Wonder

Ryan Schrieber put Madvillainy on his list WITH Kanye...bastard.

Here's the full article, but I can't resist posting the coup-de-grace final paragraph:

Think of it this way: Kurt Cobain’s been in the grave for little more than 10 years, and the early-’90s version of the music industry that helped transform him into a global figure now looks like a dusty relic. Don’t know about you, but I find that astonishing. And, to be honest, a little disturbing.

that's grime!

Dude, Mike Skinner is a minstrel. ;-)

01. Junior Boys – Last Exit
02. Sachiko M/Toshimaru Nakamura/Otomo Yoshihide – Good Morning Good Night
03. Joanna Newsom – The Milk-Eyed Mender
04. Keith Rowe/Burkhard Beins – Erstlive001
05. Kanye West – The College Dropout
06. Radian – Juxtaposition
07. The Blood Brothers – Crimes
08. Wolf Eyes – Burned Mind
09. Dean Roberts/Radu Malfatti/Mattin/Klaus Filip – Building Excess
10. Dion Workman/Mattin – Via Vespucci

I hate *perfect* top tens. I hate all of the above lists because they don't contain any *quirky* choices. Gimme a list that has Junior boys *and* Celine Dion in it!

Sorry, dude. ;-) Simon Reynolds was the one I first read making the connection, and I think Dan and I were saying the same thing on here a couple of years back.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! and he is kanye. Ask Byron Crawford.

http://ubl.artistdirect.com/Images/artd/amg/music/bio/721308_kanyewest3_200x200.jpg

You'd be surprised. I think, however, their numbers are in some cases quite literally dying off.

If the Arcade Fire got one US dollar for every 500 words written about them in newspapers and blogs in 2004, instead of their royalty check, they'd have more than enough money to buy a new accordion and party dress for Regine.

oops. missed this one. sorry.

Kicks delivered to the body of a dead horse, maybe.

RIGHT HERE IN RIVER CITY!

1. Junior Boys - Last Exit - Kin (16 points)
2. Sonic Youth - Sonic Nurse - Geffen (13 points)
3. Phoenix - Alphabetical - Source/Astralwerks (13 points)
4. Bark Psychosis - Codename: Dustsucker - Fire (13 points)
5. Joanna Newsom - The Milk-Eyed Mender - Drag City (10 points)
6. Luomo - The Present Lover - Kinetic (10 points)
7. Erlend Oye - DJ Kicks - !K7 (8 points)
8. Kanye West - The College Dropout - Roc-A-Fella (7 points)
9. Animal Collective - Sung Tongs - Fat Cat (5 points)
10. United State of Electronica - United State of Electronica - Sonic Boom (5 points)

Also from the ilx p&j thread, Raymond Cummings!

1. Graham Smith - Final Battle - March/What Are (15 points)
2. Animal Collective - Sung Tongs - Fatcat (14 points)
3. Stereolab - Margerine Eclipse - Elektra (13 points)
4. Walkmen - Bows & Arrows - Record Collection (12 points)
5. Kanye West - The College Dropout - Roc-A-Fella (11 points)
6. Fiery Furnaces - Blueberry Boat - Rough Trade (9 points)
7. Ariel Pink’s Haunted Graffiti - The Doldrums - Paw Tracks (8 points)
8. Sightings - Arrived In Gold - Load (7 points)
9. Green Day - American Idiot - Reprise (6 points)
10. Yellow Swans - Bring The Neon War Home - Narnack (5 points)

Actually, does Graham Smith rap on the new album? He's rapped before. I really want to hear that thing.

I don't have any Kanye on my list cuz that guy has one of the assiest voices in rap history. I kinda hoped (p.s. my token rap album is Bumblebeez 81) would keep people from getting defensive.

and hey registering complaints about something isn't the same as actively hating, etc., etc.

listing the token rap album or just not listing any rap/hip-hop at all

i know that no rap album is even close to my top ten of 2004.

(i have trouble liking the full albums, but i love hip-hop/rap singles)

The Arcade Fire -- Funeral -- Merge
Interpol -- Antics -- Matador
TV on the Radio -- Desperate Youth, Blood Thirsty Babes -- Touch & Go
Air -- Talkie Walkie - Astralwerks
Sonic Youth -- Sonic Nurse -- Geffen
Brian Wilson -- Smile - Nonesuch
Ron Sexsmith -- Retriever - Nettwerk
Animal Collective -- Sung Tongs -- Fat Cat
Modest Mouse -- Good News For People Who Love Bad News -- Epic
Kanye West -- The College Dropout -- Rocafella

then you might want to open a window

Most true. For instance, I'm not giving Miccio beatings for not listing the Siouxsie B-sides box set in his list EVEN THOUGH IT'S CLEARLY MORE GENIUS THAN JUST ABOUT ANYTHING oops there I go again...

I was too busy filling it up with token ambient and drone albums.

Nevertheless, I won't be the least bit surprised if all ten of those albums make the P&J top 20.

Even Ron Sexsmith? Nyurgh.

we had just been at reckless down the street

weird.

http://popmatters.com/music/best2004/041228-warner.shtml

The Killers, Hot Fuss
Elvis Costello & the Imposters, Delivery Man
The Libertines, The Libertines
The Gang of Four, A Brief History of the Twentieth Century
Hope of the States, The Lost Riots
Amy Winehouse, Frank
Kanye West, The College Drop Out
Interpol, Antics
Patti Smith, Trampin'
Divine Comedy, Absent Friends

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

"look at me i am in a funny bear suit (skit)"
"ouch, my jaw hurts"
"i r dumb (skit)"
"slow jamz"
"college girls be fat (skit)"
"all falls down"
"all i got at college was this backpack (skit)"
"jesus walks"
"i was robbed at various award shows" (new bonus diss skit)

ames Blount, your votes have been recorded.

Your Pazz & Jop albums ballot was submitted as follows:

1. - Rio Baile Funk: Favela Booty Beats - Essay (25 points)
2. Dizzee Rascal - Showtime - Matador (15 points)
3. - DFA Compilation #2 - DFA (13 points)
4. Big $ Rich - Horse of a Different Color - Warner Bros. (12 points)
5. - Run The Road - 679 (7 points)
6. The Hold Steady - Almost Killed Me - French Kiss (7 points)
7. Mia/Diplo - Piracy Funds Terrorism Vol. 1 - Hollertronix (6 points)
8. Les Savy Fav - Inches - French Kiss (5 points)
9. Devin the Dude - To Tha X-Treme - Rap-A-Lot (5 points)
10. Infinite Livez - Bush Meat - Big Dada (5 points)

Your Pazz & Jop singles ballot has been recorded as follows:

1. Mia - ""Galang"" - Showbiz
2. Boredoms - ""Seadrum""
3. Gretchen Wilson - ""Redneck Woman"" - Epic
4. Cécile - ""Hot Like We"" - Greensleeves
5. Britney Spears - ""Toxic"" - Jive
6. LCD Soundsystem - ""Yeah (Stupid Version)"" - DFA
7. Jason Forrest - ""Spectacle to Refute All Judgments"" - Sonig
8. Mya featuring Chingy - ""Fallen (Zone 4 Remix)"" - Interscope
9. Alicia Keys - ""You Don't Know My Name"" - J-Records
10. Ciara featuring Missy Elliot - ""1, 2 Step"" - La Face

Gregory Conner, Tufts Observer

http://www.tuftsobserver.org/arts/20041210/top_10_albums_of_2004.html

Brian Wilson—SMILE: What can I say about SMILE that hasn’t been said?

Arcade Fire—Funeral: Ah, PitchforkMedia.com. At times I find it disturbing that I have a strong relationship with a website...

Interpol—Antics

Wilco—A Ghost is Born: Thirteen minutes of something that sounds like a room full of refrigerators! What was Wilco thinking!?

Loretta Lynn—Van Lear Rose: To be honest, I probably would have never picked this record up if it wasn’t for Jack White...

Green Day—American Idiot: This was the surprise of 2004 for me.

Franz Ferdinand—Franz Ferdinand: This album was even better before I heard “Take Me Out” so many times I became nauseous at the sound of its first guitar flourish.

Iron and Wine—Our Endless Numbered Days: Singer-songwriters may have the hardest job in music. It is up to only them whether they succeed or fail; they have no band to pick up the slack or superstar producer to save them with a new beat.

Kanye West—College Dropout: The rap album of the year.

The Hives—Tyrannosaurus Hives

Kanye West—College Dropout: The rap album of the year.

vs

Loretta Lynn—Van Lear Rose: To be honest, I probably would have never picked this record up if it wasn’t for Jack White...

the word "college" is in the title. He uses his full name. It's laudibly gangsta-free. It has a hefty promotional budget. Release the same album as Kay-Way's Ballz Up In Dat II: The Unchallenged Greatest with a picture of Kay-Way holding a shotgun and see if it does as well critically.

(some of my best friends are kanye fans. I kinda like "All Falls Down" and "Workout Plan" - can't stand the chipmunk hits)

Bingo. Hey Outkast was my number #3 last year! And I like the sloppy-ass Prince-rip disc more than the rap one!

ah, but the non-andre hippity-hop was present in my singles list ("Get Low" and "Faint") and album list (northern state)

i don't know a single country fan who would say the same of loretta's album.

One my best friends in town would say the same thing (so will Xgau!).

I wonder how many people who love hiphop would also find valuable an 'indiecentric' 2004 top 10 list

hey, I voted for Devin AND Kanye! where's my laudibly non-gangsta prize?

http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~mbarret1/Graphics/berkely03/gangsta.jpg

(xp stevie: I really dreaded this, y'know)

-- What's this place, Biblevania? (natepatri...), December 30th, 2004.

Nate is pretty OTM, especially there. and Anthony, are you actually using that asshole Byron Crawford to back up your point?

ANYway - other than that Al, I agree w/ you and Nate, and I think the Kanye album is pretty damn great on the whole - and no, many of the album tracks are just as strong as the singles ("we don't care," "family business" "Two Words" etc.)

Moving on:

yeah the kanye rhetoric is quite possible by far the most fucking absurd i've seen around any hip-hop record ever, outdoing speakerboxx/thelovebelow, outdoing lauryn, outdoing 16 years of 'nation of millions' hyberbole even maybe (ok maybe not that).

Huh? So Rocafella convinced a bunch of corny rock fans that they were listening to backpacker rap bcuz kanye doesn't talk about guns. The "Not since de la soul and public enemy!" rhetoric is stupid, but it always is - this is just another of countless examples.

all the rockcrits feeling icky about getting gop cooties from country and then rallying around fucking "jesus walks" is fucking insane.

Maybe ILM/the blogosphere is somewhat to the left of the critical mainstream but shit - the country poseurism that I sense - and I want to make it clear I'm not calling anyone out, it is just highly suspicious when suddenly everyone jumps on the mainstream-country-is-so-great bandwagon when chuck eddy mentions how good big and rich are - seems pretty fucking pervasive around here. In fact, I'd say Big & Rich would be a much BETTER example of Outkast for the 2k4 than Kanye is - and I like that Big and Rich album more than SB/LB (SB was the better half, by the way).

anyone wondering about how christianity's been used to 'tame' the black man in america for over three hundred years need only glance at a couple of the hundred or so "jesus walks" hosannahs - "dont be angry / dont be fucking / just pray and pray again": ugh. i guarantee you if rove thought bushco had a real shot at the black vote or hadn't (astutely) decided "fuck the blacks, lets try to get the hispanic vote" then "jesus walks" woulda been the "born in the usa" of 1984. plus kanye's a shitty rapper.

I disagree w/ practically all of this. And your narrative of the history of black christianity that neglects to give any agency to african americans is pretty disturbing too.

One thing that contradicts my argument that could be accurate was the statement people made last year that andre's album was an introduction to hip-hop, and perhaps the fact that kanye - who, as Nate said, is "100% hip-hop" - is about to win is somehow related to andre's success. And perhaps this parallel will translate to big and rich + some other act next year. But I have a hard time believing it.

I've only been reading the blogosphere/ILM critical thing for about two years, so maybe my ability to detect critical trends lacks perspective, but I can't help but feel like there are certain "in" genres/styles/albums every year that are in vogue to the critical establishment - and while ILM/blogosphere may be the more progressive end of the critical establishment, i see the same sort of thing happening here.

Example:
Not that she has a perfect perspective or anything, but a friend of mine from school is jamaican and has a huge interest - understandably - with jamaican music, and she said that she felt dancehall had a better year this year than in 2003. Yet in the critical blogosphere, the opposite conclusion was reached. Not that she has a "more correct" view or anything - but I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems that trends and fads do sort of sweep the critical world and I felt like that was happening here. I mean, look at how Dizzee is doing this year vs. last year - respectably, but aside from enthusiasts, the pfork massive haven't (to my knowledge) exactly been shaking stores down for wiley albums or other grime singles.

http://www.cantstopwontstop.com/blog/2004/12/robert-johnson-rockism-and-hip-hop.html

As quoted there:

The neo-ethnic movement was nourished by a spate of LP reissues that for the first time made it possible to find hillbilly and country blues recordings in white, middle-class, urban stores. The bible was Harry Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music...Smith was specifically interested in the oldest and most-rural sounding styles, and set a pattern for any future folk-blues reissue projects by intentionally avoiding any artist who seemed consciously modern or commercial...

Far from balancing this taste, the other record collectors tended to be even more conservative. Much as they loved the music, they were driven by the same mania for rarity that drives collectors of old stamps or coins, and many turned up their noses at Jefferson or the Carters, since those records were common. (Ed. note: Like Rick James, bitch!) To such men, the perfect blues artist was someone like Son House or Skip James, an unrecognized genius whose 78s had sold so badly that at most one or two copies survived. Since the collectors were the only people with access to the original records or any broad knowledge of the field, they functioned to a great extent as gatekeepers of the past and had a profound influence on what the broader audience heard. (Ed. note: Like Freestyle Fellowship or Bun B, bitch!) By emphasizing obscurity as a virtue unto itself, they essentially turned the hierarchy of blues-stardom upside-down: The more records an artist had sold in 1928, the less he or she was valued in 1958.

This fit nicely with the beat aesthetic, and indeed with the whole mythology of modern art. While Shakespeare had been a favorite playwright of the Elizabethan court, and Rembrandt had been portraitist to wealthy Amsterdam, the more recent idols were celebrated for their rejections: Van Gogh had barely sold a painting in his lifetime, The Rite of Spring had caused a riot, Jack Kerouac's On The Road had been turned down by a long string of publishers. Where jazz had once been regarded as a popular style, a new generation of fans applauded Miles Davis for turning his back on the audience and insisting that his music speak for itself, while deriding Louis Armstrong as a grinning Uncle Tom. On the folk-blues scene, Van Ronk and his peers regarded anything that smacked of showmanship as a betrayal of the true tradition, a lapse into the crowd-pleasing fakery of the Weavers and Josh White. As he would later recall with some amusement, "If you weren't staring into the sound-hole of your instrument, we thought you should at least have the decency and self-respect to start at your shoes."

As in John Hammond's Carnegie Hall (Ed. note: a concert called Spirituals to Swing that packaged a grand narrative of black music), art was opposed to entertainment...

...Clapton and the Stones were the first pop stars ever to insist that they were playing blues...that was the sound they loved: no horns, no string sections, no girls going "oo-wah"--just slashing guitars and wailing harmonica.

Then the English kids flew across the Atlantic, bringing the gospel home. And they did something unprecedented: Unlike the hundres of white blues singers before them...they took it upon themselves to edcated their audience. "Our aim was to turn other people on to Muddy Waters," Keith Richards would later say. "We were carrying flags, idealistic teenage sort of shit: There's no way we think anybody is really going to seriously listen to us. As long as we can get a few people interested in listening to the shit we think they ought to listen to..."

It's probably a much bigger issue w/ dancehall bcuz most bloggers/critics aren't engaging w/ the form the way most jamaicans are - simply for practical/economic reasons.

1. more jamaicans online (obviously there are some socioeconomic realities that have to be dealt w/, but this is the hopeful future)
and
2. More non-jamaicans get access to a wider view of jamaican music.

Sorry if I'm totally sidetracking the thread.

I'm thinking this probably has a little more to do with C&W's post-Garth upward shift in sales and cultural status than anything Chuck has done. Otherwise...maybe you want to pin Gretchen Wilson winding up on VH1 and Shania Twain duetting with Mark McGrath on Chuck, too? How about the Nelly and Tim McGraw duet? Shania Twain, Toby Keith, Tim McGraw, George Strait, Gretchen Wilson, Rascal Flatts, Big & Rich, Alison Krauss and Kenny Chesney all in the Billboard Top 50 Albums list? (Some of them in greatest hits configurations, but still!)

Sorta similar to what I've just said, but maybe some of those "other" things that that attract P&J voters to B&R are also what attract C&W fans to them, too. In fact, weren't they on a CMT show called..."Outlaws"? (And look who else were on it.)

It's just fun to type "ask Byron Crawford" when discussing kanye.

My "token" rap albums weren't even American - I went for M.I.A. and Dizzee. Ghostface almost made my top 10 pazz and jop, but he got edged out at the very last moment. I kinda regret not including him.

The other: T.I.,
who is more a songwriter
than a "great" rapper.

Trick Daddy: so close!
Xzibit surprising, good,
but there was no room

This was the last year
that I think I will listen
to U.S. music

FEAR FOR AMERICA

and i'm not sure what at all his point has to do with hiphop, which is neither his subject nor apparently his enemy. it's facile to celebrate the non-'gangsta', especially when what falls outside the set is not in fact 'gangsta' (is that true here?), but can someone tell me why 'gangsta' is something to be valued or why non-'gangstas' should not be 'laud'ed for, where otherwise applicable, their relative bravery, humanism and rejection of a profit-motive (at least where not seeking some other status sign).

i think it's not-half-bad writing.

?

exactly. I take away from the semi-gibes that he doesn't think the world of these bands, but that the pop charts are without such marginally different - from the charts and each other - bands, and poorer for it.

good point. I didn't know Modest Mouse were so big. But is he saying that he wishes Coheed (who?) and the Walkmen were even bigger than Wilco, who he then comparatively reduces in market share (even while they are growing in their fan base) to a 'cult'?

yes, these are record company boats. he wants the smaller boats to be bigger and maybe the bigger boats to lose a few of their amenities.

Miccio! Miccio! Miccio!

I agree. But I don't see that being his argument, necessarily. I think you're too tied to his examples.

this same argument was also made in the following years: 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1981, 1980, 1979, 1978, 1977, 1976, 1975, etc. my guess is that it was first made a few years -- maybe as many as ten, though -- after edison invented the phonograph. no, strike that. my guess is it was first made a few years after man walked upright for the first time.

no it wasn't

And to the "what's wrong w/ not liking gangsta?" question:

Basically, "gangsta" is being used as a catchall to describe something that has a lot more social implications than "just" gangsta rap - certain "kinds" of rap by certain "kinds" of rappers etc. etc. etc. It's not too difficult to see that there's a lot more too it than preferring de la soul to nwa.

xp gab, absolutely it was.

ok maybe, but all of these arguments - with the exception of MTV, which I'll exclude, because it wasn't a mass phenomenon in its early years and/or had to reach a position of power before it could be exercised - seem more about diversity of style rather than diversity of artists. in the '70s, the bands all sounded the same, but there were more of them. today, there's quite a bit of diversity on top 40 radio, but there aren't too many bands.

15.60.75 - Jimmy Bell's Still In Town
Crime - San Francisco's Still Doomed
Meic Stevens - Outlander
Nektar - Journey To The Centre Of The Eye
Nektar - A Tab In The Ocean
Pere Ubu - One Man Drives While The Other Man Screams
Arthur Russell - Calling Out Of Context
Wire - Wire On The Box:1979
Minor Threat - First Demo Tape
The Homosexuals - Astral Glamour
Bunnybrains - Box The Bunny
Sun Ra Research - Sun Ra Research

Big Bummer: that david byrne world psychedelic classics african comp that doesn't have any psychedelic music on it. there oughta be a law. the above list is exclusive to this thread and will not be posted elsewhere.

online rap purists in late 2004 = kanye is a coon and i will punch him the face

the worm turned like a motherfucker on kanye with a lot of heads. limited research states that ghost and madvillain were tops for most people, but kanye made very few lists when polled at boards and shit.

then again..

white rock crit + non-violent, accessible black rap = pazz and jop

i liked it when it first dropped, but it went from maybe five or six songs i liked a lot to me just ripping 'spaceship' and giving the disc to my 10 year old sister for christmas.

also, i was pretty shocked by the lack of rap on my list. i had m.i.a, the streets and dizzee, none of which are trad-rap. also had madvillain, rjd2 and ghost. john smith and masta ace would've gotten in if i though they had a chance to make it in pazz and jop. which is weird, considering i heard maybe 60-70 rap albums this year.

whatever, most would call this year pretty light for solid rap albums. i thought kanye was gonna be popular with indie folks when i first heard his tape drops in 2002 but not quite to this extent.

remove the word "than you" and yes. This is soooo not about me. I'm Budgie Klos! My time will come.

but his stuff's composed,
and I think his guest rapping
is just not as tight

urban legend's GREAT
not spotty at all to me;
I am a big fan

TS: rockism v. racism

white rock crit + non-violent, accessible white rock = pazz and jop (which has top-40'd a go-go comp, Eric B & Rakim, BDP, Ice-T, NWA, Dre (3x), Cube (3x), Warren G, Nas, Gang Starr, Biggie (2x), Jay-Z (3x), The Wu, Raekwon, Ghostface, ODB (2x), Outkast (3x), Cannibal Ox, The Coup, Scarface, Dizzee, and 50)

sure, you can call most or all of those 'accessible', but if you do, what makes any other hiphop un-accessible?

Also, in light of all the ILM praise for the Times rockism piece, isn't complaining about token rap-album representation on year-end lists kinda moot, in that it's all supposed to be about singles and iPod shuffles anyway?

Non-hiphop black artists to make the top 5 since 1986: Robert Cray, Prince, Tracy Chapman, Neville Brothers, Living Colour.

*other than that Kanye is a fucking lock.

5 is a convenient number. expand it by 1 and you get D'Angelo and the half-black Was (Not Was), 1 more Badu, two more still Soul II Soul and Jill Scott, and another on to The Indestructible Beat of Soweto. but anyway, i'm not sure why i'm arguing because i don't understand the point in the first place.

why are you changing the subject? does anyone read RS anymore?

You don't think critics are essentially creating a canon on p&J?

no

what should-be-canonical hiphop artists are being oppressed by rock-crit's indie-nerd preference's extension to black music?

Who reads Vibe?

canonized music certainly doesn't reflect popular taste...
so please explain to me where this canon is constructed, if not by critics.

And I could name you a hundred hip-hop artists releasing music the same year as arrested development was dominating PnJ that deserved more coverage.

Bunnybrains - Box The Bunny

NEPOTISM

but actually, among most mainstream rap fans Kanye would easily be the concensus choice for album of the year (compared to 2003, where Outkast would have faced pretty stiff competition from 50 Cent and maybe Jay-Z).

I don't think Graham does any rapping on the record. Here's my blurb review on Final Battle (way down at the bottom): http://www.citypaper.com/special/story.asp?id=9448

the audience. you're telling me RS' 500 greatest isn't a kiss to its readership?

And I could name you a hundred hip-hop artists releasing music the same year as arrested development was dominating PnJ that deserved more coverage.

of course. why would you assume i would think otherwise. but, so? does anyone listen to them today? no. i.e. P&J /= canon.

That, or, because they(me/us) have to pay for a lot of their stuff they're going for the "safe bets", stuff which is already critically/commercially proven - which just speeds up the canonising process.

It amazes me that despite all the blather here in the US about multiculturalism and diversity, there are still editors at various general interest publications who make little effort to include submissions on a wide variety of musical genres. Multiple contributions are a way to avoid tokenism. Although as others have said, isn't one token pick better than none.

if he thinks one-tenth of those folks are paying for anything but blank CD-Rs he's even crazier than I already think he is. (hi Bob!)

Didn't Chuck Eddy write on ILM last year that he's never downloaded anything?

if you're going to have a token rap album, kanye is not a retarded choice. at the same time, a lot of these lists call it the best in its genre this year, a statement that suggests said reviewer has heard a portion of the rap released this year that justifies such an assertion, and that's what i think the problem is. in such a large sample of reviewers, there would be more diversity if they had been exposed to a diverse selection of rap.
kanye interview in rs=weird. john mayer?

my goal this year is to listen to more radio/video channels. even the weird digital radio channels that come with my cable t.v. i've been thinking about looking into one of those satellite radio things to plug into the stereo. i've let myself get too far removed from the popworld and the newsounds out there. I've never been so out of it in my life.

well, was there? Don't leave us hanging!

http://www.kozyshack.com/index.asp

..............

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..."

Uh what! this fellow was my lecturer last term! "Pop And The Press" I recommended ILM to him and now and now oh dear, well he did say he had checked ILM out but was confused more than anything.

Not sure if that list counts as "indiecentric" -- I'll let the ILM gestapo make that call. I was totally going to launch a premptive strike re:tokenism for the Kanye and Lynn picks in my P&J comments, but I was too busy having a baby to write comments. (little Rosie's into doo-wop, Clem Snide, and Orchestra Baobob so far)

Not that it matters, but I was an active fan of hip-hop and country before I'd ever even HEARD anything that could be considered indie/alt/punk/whatever and the first rock-crit I ever wrote for pay was largely about those two genres. I also didn't vote for Outkast last year and think that Soloman Burke record was borderline unlistenable. But those are the 10 best records I heard last year. I think the Lynn record is great, in large part because of Jack White's production (I didn't vote for Elephant last year either)and I doubt it's that foreign to mainstream country fans since the videos for "Miss Being Mrs" and "Portland, Oregon" have both been in heavy rotation on CMT.

Also for the record: Devin the Dude, Dizzee, and Madvillain/MF Doom were honorable mentions and I suspect I could be the only person to vote for "Remember When" by Alan Jackson in PnJ.

I think it's revealing that there aren't many suggestions on this thread about non-token rap records that people should be voting for. It's seemed like a pretty weak year for hip-hop albums to me, but that might be a reflection of what I get in the mail and what I've spent my steadily decreasing spare change on. ("Rubberband Man" just missed my singles list, but I've never heard a full T.I. album)

Smartest thing I've read on this thread: Michael Daddino's suggestion that the pop energy in mainstream country of late has made more new converts that crits latching onto a Chuck Eddy suggestion.

Most interesting but questionable: Blount on "Jesus Walks" -- somehow I think the role of Christianity in black America is a lot more complex than all that.

Elwisty: did he see his mention?

(x-post, or read Pitchfork)

How queer.

x-post

Like Jet!

but I do remember it being a KROQ/120 Minutes sort of hit (just like as "Girls and Boys"). But "Song #2", that shit was *everywhere* it seemed like. Hell, I STILL hear it.

x-post

haha miccio jet might have more modern rock hits (might - have they technically had more than one?) than blur but it's a different era, that pond's ALOT smaller now than in 97 or 94 or 91, ymight as well say wynton marsalis has had more hits than benny goodman.

I doubt it, he seemed confused by ILM, as in is I don't think he quite understood the layout and had other more important things to do than spend days exploring (and that's what you need to make sense of this place) websites recomended by smart arse students. I don't really want to comment on his list itself 'cos he was nice though it was only an elective and I doubt I will see him again. He told us he used to be The Guardian's Northern music corespondent which seemed very impressive.

dude.

I like how you got on this kick just cuz I said Jet had more hits than Blur.

you're like the guy who wants to win the chicken race so bad you fly off the cliff

(x-post)

(x-post. thank ESPN)

FACT!

mention of analingus = immediate lojack

DEAR LORD.

Pardon?

lol