TS: Prince or Bowie?

i pick bowie. though i also love prince.

This'll have to do then:

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00000DTQD.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

and i've tried, believe me. i've tried.

bowie, on the other hand, is unimpeachable.

(I'm going to have to go with +()-> on that specific one.. sorry, Duke)

Bowie, on the other hand, in considering his poor records - which still have some elements to admire in them - was a pivotal figure in pop/rock/weirdness, for at least a decade. And more.
And The Man Who Fell to Earth is better than Prince's cellulloid dross
Prince has never recorded, or even threatened to, an album as great as Low.
Bowie has written about 40 amazing songs, Prince, well, its about 4 - and oodles of crap.
And not having a bass on When Doves Cry does not make him a genius. It makes him unable to work a mixing desk.

Prince is only funky on occassion and is eclipsed by all the 70s bands he sounds similar to (Sly Stone, The Meters, Funkadelic etc.)

Bowie has sacks of poor albums, but has a great run of them in my mind between Aladdin Sane and Scary Monsters. He did a great video in "Be My Wife" and was pretty good in the Man Who Fell To Earth. He's quite good at taking the piss out of himself too, which is nice.

Sheena Easton's solo career was better than her time with Prince.

Prince is only funky on occassion and is eclipsed by all the 70s bands he sounds similar to (Sly Stone, The Meters, Funkadelic etc.)

I can't even count the amount of wrongnesses in these statements, and I'm saying this objectively, without even sprouting an opinion about Prince or Bowie.

Not putting bass into the mix is not necessarily genius nor being "unable to work a mixing desk". it's an aesthetic decision that you can take or leave.

Prince sounding similar to Funkadelic, Sly Stone, The Meters?? If you only listened to some filler on For You or Prince or the song "Musicology", *maybe* you can try to attempt that description.. but no, sorry.

Prince seems locked in a bouffant-haired shoulder-padded fishnet-stockinged 1980s bass-slapping hell, to me. Complete with saxophone solos.

As for anybody vs. Michael Jackson... haha... Invincible is Jacko's fuckin' kryptonite in any argument in that regard.

Which is when?

ahem.

To re-address: Prince has released an incredible amount of great work (the wife was spinning Sign 'o' the Times just this week, and said album does kick a whole bunch of skinny, assless-pantsed butt), but I just don't see Prince as having the flair for 180-degree reinvention that was formerly Bowie's signature. Maybe Prince's equivalent of Bowie's Berlin period is out there (during his wilderness "slave" years, maybe?), but I haven't heard it. Apologies if I'm sounding misinformed.

Bowie played the same old post-Beatles game, I think; Prince's sources are, to me, so much richer. In my opinion, there's no contest between the Beatles and James Brown or the above-mentioned "funky people" that Prince supposedly ain't a patch on. Which statement I find, uh, odd. "Sign o the Times" is a high point for Prince just like "Station to Station" or "Lodger" is for Bowie; I find Bowie the face-o-fashion most of the time, synthetic but not in a good sense. Prince might've dicked around with "personae" and all that but he never did anything as outright dumb as that Zigaboo Modeliste (funky) Stardust shit Bowie was guilty of--what a load o' crap. Which isn't to say the songs aren't good, thanks to Mick Ronson.

They're both cheesemasters--I prefer Prince's cheese, infinitely. Prince's "pop" rips like "She's Always in My Hair" and "Peach" and "When You Were Mine" are a lot better than Bowie's--again, it's just richer to my ears. I mean, OK, Boston or someone like that took off from that whole Beatles thing, whereas Prince took off from Sly, Brown, etc. What's a richer source? Again, to me, there's no question which is richer.

Also, Prince is a far better singer than Bowie; one of the finest musicians around; and sure, the quality of his work falls off after '88 and "Black Album," but even then he's done some great work.

In my opinion, Bowie's whole career has been at attempt to latch onto some illusory "zeitgeist" and that's fine, but I don't hear too much underneath that attempt, which is why I like the obvious stuff, the hits. Whereas Prince was just doing what he wanted to do--OK, the early Prince was "black man doing white music in a black way or black music in a white way," which actually isn't true at all, that's just people bringing their own misconceptions to the project. As let's-give-the-people-an-image-to-hang-onto (because they're too dumb to get it any other way), "Purple Rain" beats "Ziggy Stardust" hands down. I don't like "Purple Rain" all that much myself.

I don't know how the debunkers of funk define the term--there are lotsa ways to be "funky" and the Meters or Sly or Brown are all different; for that matter, lots of New Orleans music (Benny Spellman, a great minor artist, comes to mind) is certainly funky without being overtly so. Prince's whole idea of forcebeat drums tied to "funk" or whatever you want to call it is certainly a moment in the evolution of black music, funky music, music--now what exactly did Bowie do, stylistically, to equal that? Guitar riffs? Makeup? Went Philly soul on "Young Americans"? I don't hear it. So I say that to appreciate Bowie you have to appreciate *extraneous* shit like his hair, clothes, makeup, "ever-shifting persona," stuff like that. It's only when he gets a bit more honestly dishonest and relaxes some--on "Lodger"--that I kinda like the guy more. But then he ups and hires Stevie Ray V. to play Real Guitar and Nile Rodgers to make him some big fat dance tracks on that goddamned "Let's Dance." Yeah, man, let's dance.

And as proof that Prince is "funky," go back and listen to "How Come U Don't Call Me," which is pretty damn funky, and he did it with just piano. I don't believe David Bowie could've done that, do you?

It puts the finger on my feelings in this matter; I like my Prince, but I love my David Bowie. And that's a completely subjective opinion based on nothing else than gut feeling and teenage infatuation.

I'm gonna pick Bowie, with a hell of a lot of reservations.

Quite, quite true.

this is so unbelievably wrong on so many levels - you can count ON ONE HAND the number of great classic songs Jackson has written. And Jackson's got what, one, two truly solid albums (Off the Wall and Thriller) to Prince's four or five (1999, Purple Rain, Sign O' the Times, Controversy, Lovesexy) Jacko's peak period is unbelievably short and is owed to a host of other people (Berry Gordy, Quincy Jones, etc.) "Off the Wall" doesn't even come close to Sign O' The Times in terms of scope, innovation, depth of vision, catchy tunes, surprises, left-field references, or even in terms of pure FUNK. Prince recent public dismissiveness of Jacko is completely justified in my mind...

Both have been absolutely crucial to me liking the music I like, and to becoming the person that I am. I'd pick Prince if I had to, but as far as I can tell the main argument for living in Western society is that I don't have to choose.

Just thought I should point that out.

and for what it's worth, jacko's peak period began in 1969, before either prince or bowie entered the conversation.

I personally am far MORE entertained by Prince BECAUSE he takes himself so seriously.

This is a pantload of poppycock.

Well definitely the 'more' part, if we're just talking his solo career. 1979 to 1991 = 4 MJ albums vs. at least one Prince album a year.

Xgau made some damned-scant-praise pissy line about Heathen saying he'd finally learned to sing. This is insane--technically, he's as good as his source, Scott Walker, and certanly more verstile.

Plus. my GF, who's 30, after watching the Reality tour CD, says she'd do Bowie--who's 58--in a heartbeat. So there.

and if you wanna talk sexiness - Prince seems to have avoided physically aging a single day. Whereas Bowie looks like a glassy-eyed corpse with a fashionable haircut. Hell, Prince was always sexier than Bowie, and still is. Maybe it's cuz, y'know, Prince conveys actual ENJOYMENT of sex, whereas Bowie emotes a much more detached, creepy vibe.

i like 'em both, bowie more, but prince is plenty creepy.

prince has released albums as bad as tin machine.

This is objectively impossible.

for what it's worth of course I love them both. but at the moment I do find Prince more endearing and capable of surprises than Bowie.

* There's a huge chunk of Bowie after, being as fair as possible, Tonight that I really could care less hearing ever again. I don't mind some of the more recent stuff, but there's a deep dark pit of blandness in the middle that I want to avoid. THAT SAID, there's nothing as classic as the period of Bowie between Man Of Music, Man Of Words/Space Oddity and Scary Monsters inclusive.. almost all of it is pure solid gold.. the only possible exception being the David Live album.

* There's a huge chunk of Prince after, being as fair as possible, Lovesexy that I haven't heard, didn't hit me the first time, but am willing to listen to again and be pleasantly surprised, and would bet that I would rediscover and like. There is no horrible pit of blandness that stains Prince's career (to date) as much as it does Bowie. However, to be perfectly honest, even between For You and Sign 'O' The Times, I don't think every album in between is dead-on perfect as I think the Bowie albums are.

Now the similarities: both INCREDIBLY influential in their own unique ways. Both started off sounding a bit shaky and of the times but quickly became very unique and praiseworthy. Both reinvented themselves musically (and sometimes personally) album after album. Both have an incredible amount of timeless songs in their peak periods.

Who would i rather have a beer with? Bowie.

Who did I actually shell out a good chunk of cash to see live most recently of the two, and felt I got my money's worth? Prince.

It's really a tie for me. Can't say.

DB, did you forget that I am a black man from Minnesota earlier upthread???

Of course not! Then again, I don't assume every black person from Minnesota is automatically a Prince fan. I know you're a Prince fan, Dan, but I had no idea if you were a Bowie lover as well but just never expressed it as much.

this is apropos of nothing, really, just though I'd mention in.

Stereotypes and assumptions are bad but some may contain a kernel of truth in them. Also, any black person from Minnesota who gets offended because you assume they they like Prince is by (my) definition a dick.

As for Prince vs. Bolan...
Actually, I would easily take Prince over Bolan.. not to dismiss Bolan by any means..(ask Ned, who's a witness to my mass collection of T. Rex material the past year or so) but Bolan has the slight disadvantage of, how to put it gently, being dead?... also dying right before a spark that could have possible re-propelled his career, too. Prince vs. Bolan is a rather unfair taking sides really.

Oh, and Bowie wins this sheerly on the strength of a fleeting moment in "It's No Game (Part 1)" where he sings..."Put a bullet in my brain...AND IT MAKES ALL THE PAPERS! (followed by indecipherable Japanese exhorting). That little moment right there is cooler than EVERYTHING little Mr. Nelson has ever done and verily will ever do.

I'll admit he's doing something on that track, though I'm not sure "sing" is the right word for it. "Croon" is a bit closer. In any case, whatever he's doing, it makes me wince.

Hmmmmph.

And a good man you are to be doing that. I now have all the new remasters and really am just waiting on the final piece of the puzzle, the upcoming Born to Boogie DVD.

In 1988 I wouldn't have entirely put it past him.

"UNDER...THE GOD...WITH MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

haha xpost

This is the sound of detachment bemoaning its own inability to feel.

I find this difficult to believe unless you are defining "musical" to be "Anglicized indie-rock".

I mean, in America, Prince is unquestionably the more prominent figure, just in terms of exposure.

xpost

dude, have you actually read any American music critics?

Bowie has the highest entry but Prince has more on the list.

VERDICT: Inconclusive because it's Rolling Stone and the rules say that I must insult it.

Bowie's got 4 songs on the 500 greatest songs of all time list (46. "Heroes", 127. "Changes, 277. "Ziggy Stardust", 481. "Young Americans").

Prince has 6 (52. "When Doves Cry", 108. "Little Red Corvette", 143. "Purple Rain", 212. "1999", 299. "Sign O' The Times", 461. "Kiss")

Prince was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame I think two years ago? Whenever it was, he apparently played a gig with other inductees that was the best induction jam session ever.

altho I don't really see what that has to do with anything...

x-post

I would love to see a "TS: Prince vs. Robert Pollard" thread, only to see Matos have to make that excruciating decision.

I'm also starting to wonder if Canada and the US differ greatly in their opinions on Prince.

This planet I guess, Prince occupying a different universe entirely. I wouldn't want go through every cd, but genres he's done which I don't think Prince has done; folk, reggae, chanson, ambient, krautrock, d'n'b, industrial, bootlegs, cabaret, classical.

"Uncle Arthur eats his porridge... OOOOWWWAAAAH!"

you are wrong about pretty much all of these, except maybe industrial. "bootleg" is not a genre style.
x-post

uhhh. "Darling Nikki" is a better example.

* Bowie never gave up a tour to do a movie along the lines of Under A Cherry Moon.

* Prince never had himself naked on an album cover where HALF HIS BODY WAS THAT OF A DOG!

* Bowie never had entertaining protogé ho side acts like "Iman 6".

So, the score is STILL even.

It was on Tonight and featured Tina Turner, horror's a bit of an understatement.

FWIW I also get more icy detachment out of "When Doves Cry" than out of Bowie, whom I also hear in more of a 'Byronic melodrama' sort of way.

Maybe Wes Anderson has just ruined Bowie for me a little bit though.

Well, while I wouldn't called "Life On Mars?" an *exact* parallel.....

(haha x-post)

And again, the singing thing. Fine.. a lot of people consider that a paramount attribute in the quality of one artist over another, and while I think it's important, I feel there are far more qualities just as important as a wide vocal range and a good use of it.

MOTT!!

x-post

To use a more dire example.. let's say this thread was TS: Primal Scream vs. Badly Drawn Boy

We all know at this point that there's really not much of a sense of identity with Primal Scream, and that it's their producers that determine their sound moreso than the band does...(or at least was the case up to and including Vanishing Point).. but hell if I'm going to call Badly Drawn Boy the better artist for being a one man show because -- comparitively speaking -- I'd rather listen to even mediocre Primal Scream 10 times more than anything by Badly Drawn Boy.

I get equal pleasure from Bowie and Prince. Even an attempt at an objective analysis/comparison of the two, even in the most ridiculous ways, makes them both very even to me. Hence...

Suffice to say, as great as Prince can be, he's no Bowie. Thanks for playing.

I LOVE For You/Prince/Dirty MInd/Controversy/1999/Purple Rain/Around The World In A Day/Parade/Sign O' The Times/Lovesexy/Black Album

I LOVE The Man Who Sold The World/Hunky Dory/Ziggy Stardust/Aladdin Sane/Diamond Dogs/Station To Station/Low/Heroes/Lodger/Scary Monsters

Thus, Prince wins by a hair!

I didn't mean that it was pure icy detachment, just that detachment (including the ability to break down and look at said breakdown objectively at the same time) is something I get from it in a way that Bowie hasn't really achieved for me (though I'm sure he does for other people).

But I just put it on and I got more dance/groove out of it than detachment or breakdown or anything else so whatevs.

o. nate's point about the production is a good one too. If 80s Prince didn't have that production on it, I'd probably worship it.

Matos, are you basing your Bowie listening on the current EMI issues of his records? or the Ryko ones from the late 80s and 90s? Or both?

can people stop comparing career trajectories between the two as if they both started in the same year?

i would also like to add prince's entire bootleg minefield of output made during the 80s to make that well even deeper. thats roughly about ten (if not more) albums of brilliance.

Well, I'm sure on the Bowie boards, there's probably been a great divide between the people who a) think the Ryko issues rocked, and b) think the EMI issues are more "geniune" as they don't "rock" as much, but sound more like the original issues.

Being someone who is a bit particular about how albums are mastered to CD, I've heard less than stellar things about the recent EMI issues compared to the original Ryko run. I have just the Ryko ones and love them. Now, maybe, there isn't a difference, soundwise, between the two issues, (there definitely is a difference as far as bonus tracks or lack thereof) but IF the Ryko issues are just mastered in a way that just soothes me better than the supposedly tinnier more "genuine" EMI issues, it might be enough of an issue (no pun intended) to make me swing towards Prince in this debate, had I only had exposure to the current issues of the Bowie catalog.

the bowie love on here is clearly rockism at its finest.

The blatant abuse and lack of depth in the use of the term rockism in this statement is rockist.

x-post

for what it's worth, you'll see more people in lingerie (or otherwise questionable "sexy" clothing) at Prince shows than at Bowie shows, I imagine. The only people I know who are sexually obsessed with Bowie are gay men (I can't think of a single woman I know who professes to find him attractive), whereas Prince = instant panty peeler for large LARGE swathes of women.

x-post

Ha! Prince's incorporation of the feminine might actually be more androgynous! And lest we forget about Camille... He may just be better at going back and forth between masculine and feminine.

"I'm not a woman / I'm not a man / I am something that you'll never understand" indeed.

The difference between Prince's detachment on "When Doves Cry" and Bowie's detachment on most of his work is that with Prince you sense the effort that he is making to remain detached and you sense that there is a veritable roiling ocean of feeling inside him that if he relaxes for one second he might fall into - in Bowie's case the roiling ocean is more like a swimming pool.

In the defence of my friend, she was trying to say that Bowie was better at somehow being neither distinctly male or female. I guess I was trying to add on that Prince is doing the just opposite and being both. (Or maybe this is lame conjecture...)

And in Bowie's defence I would like to say that I definitely know girls who consider him extremely attractive.

and post this just so i, and everyone else, can see it. Again ! and again and again

http://www.rockmine.music.co.uk/Bowie/DavBo.GIF

But I guess the theory makes sense in the context of Bowie's alienation versus Prince's sexual liberation.

(But, ack, sometimes it seems that every other woman I know is in love with Bowie.)

Exactly - the claim is not that Prince actually feels things more deeply than Bowie in a psychological sense - just that the music makes you think that he does. I'm agnostic as to the inner mental states of both men.

it's funny, they are so close, somehow; it's the reason this thread is still going, surely. i think the point about collaboration vs singular talent is key, it's what i was going to say when i clicked on the thread at this late late hour. there's no doubt that prince has more "talent" the raw prodigy sense. but if you listen to what's different between "prince" and (really anything after, but let's say) "purple rain," what's been added are bits of bowie!

anyway, my favorite bowie album is "the idiot"

Last night I listened to 'Housequake' and thought it was good. However, I do get the feeling that the backing singers, musicians, etc. have been brainwashed into spouting complete bollocks at the behest of His Purpleness. Which is fair enough, but it gives me the willies a bit. I don't think you get that with Bowie. You always get the feeling that it's more of a group effort.

(ok, he did the going down on my guitarist thing in 72 with mick ronson but that not nearly as good!)

The backing singers, musicians, etc. ARE His Purpleness. And if the spouting of complete bollocks interests you, howzabout that "Time takes a cigarette and puts it in your mouth," eh?

this is just wrong by the way and can only be the opinion of someone who has read more overstretched comparisons to the above names then actually heard their music.

For me its a muso vs. songwriter argument.

Bowie will never have grooves like Prince, I don't think Prince will write songs that move me quite as much as Bowie has done.

Lock them both in a recording studio each for a week, on their own, with just a guitar. See what happenes.

true, but he has had some pretty good grooves!

In a kinda Sontag way, I think Bowie works from a camp perspective--which might explain the "coldness" dis. That his agita is so severe--or perhaps he's afraid of his agita?--that he uses the distance of simulated personas, thinking he can ditch ship if the going gets too rough.

The most extraordinary thing I have ever seen live is when this methodology failed during the Diamond Dogs tour. I'm assuming he was coked out of his skull. On the last song, he was ripping his guts open singing and he just freaked and collapsed and Luther Vandross (!) carried him away. It wasn't a set-up--it was incredibly uncomfortable to watch; DB just lost it.

I was at this fab drag club on my birthday and this asskick dragqueen finished her set with a, um, straight version of "Ziggy Stadust" (full rockin band on tape) and the house came down.

Both Prince and Bowie are great musicians--but Prince has axe skills that kill. Bowie out-sources.

There's something hermetic about Prince that keeps me away to some degree. I was run over by a bus once and ended up in a half body cast and my then-GF left me with several prince CDs and this really helped pass the time, but I was like--Let me in, dude! Stop *perfecting* everything to death. (I love how messy OUTSIDE is.) Of course, with Bowie, he's mainly talking to his neurosi, but suffering from a certain negative narcissism, I can relate.

Then again, I almost saw God when I smoked some reefer and listened to "The Cross."

For me, Bowie gets it for his near-Lennon/McCartney way with a melody and unlikely chord progression, his way with an anxiety, the way he made me as a early-teen feel human despite the fist-pummeling evidence of brutish others, and his wardrobe.

Even though Bowie's last couple of albums have kind of pissed over Skipper's output of late.

xxpp

"I LOVE For You/Prince/Dirty MInd/Controversy/1999/Purple Rain/Around The World In A Day/Parade/Sign O' The Times/Lovesexy/Black Album"

I'd agree the gueer-ish continuum included Little Richard, but to leave out Bowie and attendant glam seems iffy to me.

Most of the 80s was a horrid, scorched Earth dead zone quality-wise for ol' Dave.

xp

And there's three songs on Reality that are as good, simply from a songwriting perspective, as anything he's written. And about seven on Heathen. I mean, jeez, the guy's almost 60!

Prince post-88 classix:
Get Off, Joy in Repetition, My Name is Prince, Pretty Man, Musicology, among others...

I think I meant gated drums as a metaphor sorta.

haha xpost w/Shakey

Then I saw SEVEN, and during the end credit crawl I freaked at the song played--"Hey, this sounds like Bowie--but good!"

And so when I got OUTSIDE, I put on "Heart's Filthy Lesson" and played the CD from there, thus missing the album's sucky first songs. And from "Heart's" on out, it's an amzing CD, way sui generis and just plain damned fine.

Hahaha! Just the thing I wanna read on ILM after comin' home sloppy.

Hundallasilliah!

HAHAHAHA, im guessing thats the response the poster was aiming for. i hope.

Jesus Christ, I love this thread.

Sort of an interesting TS because they do really have a lot in common.

I pick Bowie, but both are of course brilliant.

And Beck was the Bowie/Prince of the 90s.

ha ha! this thread got me thinking about whether critical cache can be measured by how much the recordings are going second hand. In the completed items on eBaY Bowie's got 5 recordings that went for over £100 (one of which, a lebanese pressing of space oddity, went for £897!) while Prince's highest is a CD of Goldnigga, which went for £82. Saying that, there's loads of Prince concert tickets selling for silly money on there, so who knows.

That kind of comparision may be a bit unfair though, as the fact that Bowie's most famous albums are around 10 years older than Prince's most famous albums will also tend to make the rare items rarer and thus more expensive.

I think it was Nelson George who said something like there's no such thing as a bad Duke Ellington record. Prince ain't Ellington, but I'd say it applies to him too.

As much as I like Bowie, he's not even in the same league as Prince. Among other things, Prince turned arrangements on their head in a vastly more influential and innovative way than Bowie was ever capable of.

Whoever wrote "And not having a bass on When Doves Cry does not make him a genius. It makes him unable to work a mixing desk" would probably also say, "Boy, that Sunny Murray doesn't know how to keep time! And gee, that John Coltrane, he plays too fast! And what's up with that Thelonious Monk guy, and all his wrong notes?"

Well, obviously there are some bad Prince records, "Chaos & Creation" being possibly the worst.

Or was it "Chaos & Disorder"?

I wish Prince had covered "Win"...

Alex and Bimble, please reread.

So.

Beck was the Bowie/Prince of the 90s.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:55 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Poor the 90s

Never understood the love for Beck...Certainly a million miles away from Bowie/Prince....there was no one in the 90's who could hold a candle to those two(Buckley might of but sadly never got the chance to)...

Bowie was GREAT in the 70s while Prince was very good in the 80s.

Bowie started the 80s great but sucked more and more dogshit throughout the 80 and the beginning of the 90s. Then got more interesting towards the late 90s and surprisingly strong in the 00s (until he stopped making music).

Prince started the 90s fine, but would suck more and more dogshit apart from a couple of surprisingly good mid 00s albums.

Overall, gotta be Bowie, but Prince was great from 1980 through 1987 and also never did anything as horrific as Tin Machine.

hey Geir!

Prince>Bowie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...>>>>lol Beck

i'm gonna take some time to peruse this thread today or tomorrow -- for some reason, this comparison has been on my mind a bit lately & i think it's quite apt.

also, i could see someone preferring one to the other and not think any less of them for their choice (i don't know who i'd pick right now TBH). this isn't easy-peasy like the prince v. morrissey comparison (ie, can't understand how anyone could pick Morrissey in that poll).

miccio and Matos win

out of context (esp after his subsequent post) but:

When Prince releases an album as magnificent as Diamond Dogs, I'll consider it, but until then, Prince isn't worthy to scrape the dung off of Bowie's shoes.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, January 12, 2005

True then, true now.

Again, believe it or not, I do love me some Prince....but he's now Bowie. Sorry, that's just the way I feel.

He's NO Bowie, not he's now Bowie. Actually, maybe he is now Bowie.

I knew this would coax you out!

I felt a tremor in the Force

The thread that made me join ILE.

Both are the only artists I can think of that practically everyone likes/loves

Certainly all the thinking about Bowie I've done in the last couple days makes me rethink that "He wishes he can feel" stuff said upthread.

weird that I was such a Prince partisan on this thread but ppl were talking a lot of shit

Bowie's undisputed Classic albums: Ziggy Stardust, Hunky Dory, Station to Station, Low, "Heroes," Lodger, Scary Monsters
Prince's undisputed Classic albums: Controversy, 1999, Purple Rain, Sign 'o' the Times

what do y'all think?

i pick bowie bc i think their highs are pretty close but prince's lows are lower and more frequent. Bowie's had a much better 21st century.

+Dirty Mind

and Parade is probably as undisputed as Scary Monsters (Parade is a masterpiece IMO)

oh true. i had Dirty Mind confused with Under the Cherry Moon in my head when i was writing that out

oh ffs they're the same thing, nvm. i guess i dont fuck with parade

Jon OTM

don't get me started on the disputed classics (which will quickly turn into "why will no one agree with me that Come is massively underrated")

basically bowie hot hands is 1970-1980 and prince hot hands is 1979-1989

both of them made music that seems to point to a futuristic utopia of polymorphism

Bowie's had a much better 21st century.

Bowie has released far fewer studio albums in the 21st century - 4 to Prince's 15. Although would there be fewer lows if Prince released less?

Come is better than it has any right to be, altho I haven't listened to it in quite awhile

well utopia for prince, kind of a mixed utopia dystopia for bowie

xpost to self

(which will quickly turn into "why will no one agree with me that Come is massively underrated")

hi!

had a vision of Bowie playing at George Harrison tribute show in 2004 and playing the long guitar solo

he'd play it on koto probably

15 albums that is insane

Prince was great from 1979 to 1996; saying only those canonized mid-80s albums are great is just acquiescing to conventional wisdom. Emancipation is better than Parade, which is brought down by so many pointless interludes and vignettes. At the same time Prince released a triple album of honey-pure fuck/love/god songs, Bowie was doing some disco daddy mock-jungle ditties... Can't say I really know his music though, but nothing that I've heard has moved half as much as P. Rogers Nelson. Sad that he's dead, but that don't make him better.

yr being overly generous to Prince's symbol-name period

Tuomas nobody cares what you think about this, if you can't control your tendency to speak ill of the dead then go fuck yourself for real

tuomas jesus if you don't think bowie could fuckin MOVE ASSES you are so in the dark

I don't really consider that speaking ill, come on now

xp

personally I find Tuomas' lack of engagement w Bowie amusing, given that he lines up w Tuomas' sensibilities p nicely in a number of ways (I think)

I mean Bowie clearly loved dance music, specifically black American dance music, but also european electronic music, plus his whole androgyny/amorphous sexual politics thing

Now tuomas is stupid in the street
and he can't socialise

I'm not speaking "ill of the dead", I'm only saying that I don't much care about the tunes by Bowie that I've heard. I already said that it's sad he died, both in this thread and the RIP thread, but does that mean no one is allowed not to like his music anymore? It's not like I even think it's bad per se, but this thread is about comparing his music to Prince's, and in my brain/hips/heart the latter wins easily. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

(xxxxpost)

but this thread is about comparing his music to Prince's, and in my brain/hips/heart the latter wins easily.

comparison requires familiarity

is the thing

I mean Bowie clearly loved dance music, specifically black American dance music, but also european electronic music, plus his whole androgyny/amorphous sexual politics thing

Yeah, I get it, but I just like his influences more than his music. If I want to listen sophisti-disco, I'll go for Chic instead... Based on the few (hit) tunes that I've heard, he's not particularly striking or expressive as a dance music vocalist. And if I want to listen to experimental electronic music, I prefer to do that without thin rock vocals.

comparison requires familiarity

If I nothing that I heard by him has moved me, do I really need to listen to all of his albums before I can say he's not for me. Like, if you hear 10 black metal songs and deduce you hate the genre, do you really have to listen to 100 black metal albums before you're allowed to say so?

experimental electronic music, I prefer to do that without thin rock vocals.

*sigh* given a close listen to side 2 of Low and side 2 of "Heroes" eh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4d7Wp9kKjA

Like, this I think is supposed to be his best-known dance tune? The backing track is great, but his singing sounds totally out place, like it was recorded for some new wave rock song instead of an R&B/boogie tune. He can't ride the groove at all, the vocals are so stiff and emotionless.

but does that mean no one is allowed not to like his music anymore?

for the next few days, yes

(xxpost)

There's so much great electronic music released I'll never have the time to listen to it all, so why would I need to go looking for it from the B side of some rock album?

Well sorry, I'm off the the thread then.

If I nothing that I heard by him has moved me, do I really need to listen to all of his albums before I can say he's not for me.

all of them? maybe not but it's worth pointing out that Bowie is not like black metal, he jumped genres and styles A LOT, making any representative sampling difficult to compile. I mean "Subterraneans" bears zero resemblance to "Life on Mars" which in turn bears zero resemblance to "DJ". The "I've heard one, so I've heard them all" argument can fly with some people (including many of Bowie's imitators) but not with him.

xxxp

just listen to all those terrible thin rock vocals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKHC1Iwm-X0

like it was recorded for some new wave rock song instead of an R&B/boogie tune

It's both! At once!

That's an okay tune, still has too much electric guitar and too much of an industrial sound for my taste.

I understand he did a lot of different, so maybe if there's an album where he doesn't sing, or at least doesn't sing as badly as on "Let's Dance", and there's no rock guitars, and he doesn't try to imitate the styles younger musicians did better, like on those 90s jungle tunes, and there could be some proper 4/4 beats, or at least some Vangelis-style cosmic synths, you can recommend that album to me, I promise to check it out.

(xpost)

Well, it's a hybrid that doesn't work then.

Not every style can be succesfully mixed with some other.

See what you think, Tuomas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_TTkAB6b14

look Tuomas I made a blog post saying "even if you're not a fan, you have to like at least one of his albums", don't make me retract that now

this thread is amazing. however it's easily solved by going on Spotify and comparing the two.

This is okay, but again the stiffness and lack of range in vocals brings it down. I could imagine this could've been a dope tune if sung by George Benson or Nona Hendryx or Robert Palmer or someone.

(xxpost)

maybe if there's an album where he doesn't sing, or at least doesn't sing as badly as on "Let's Dance", and there's no rock guitars, and he doesn't try to imitate the styles younger musicians did better, like on those 90s jungle tunes, and there could be some proper 4/4 beats, or at least some Vangelis-style cosmic synths, you can recommend that album to me, I promise to check it out.

I already did

Well what is it?

since you seem to want someone to do yr work for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC20rI6mOiE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IXXr1IG7xg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eTvCiMjJWc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0BgFC3R3-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhZqsYkl1zI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gy94N_mcWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBprICVPzKA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK1alQN3MDg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVY2ERXkNgY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuPcbPaME5w

Okay, the first tune has rock guitar on it, so it already doesn't meet my qualifications. And it sounds like instrumental new wave rock in general. The second one is aiight, but nothing that Tangerine Dream didn't too better (it's also way too short). The third one is slightly better, reminds of China era Vangelis... If there's an album of nothing but this stuff, I could imagine it being okay. The fourth one is named after my favourite district of Berlin, but the tune doesn't really affect me like it's namesake does. It's okay, but the noisy saxophone and rock guitar (again!) kinda ruin the fairly interesting ambient mood that it starts with. I'm just not into mixing rock elements to electronic music, it didn't work Prodigy and it doesn't work for this guy either.

(xpost)

I'm not sure what makes a guitar qualify as "rock"

like specifically what sonic characteristics

If it's an electric guitar and it's played through some fuzz/distortion filter and it's not used as a rhythm accompaniment, then it's rock guitar.

huh

Bowie was def a guy interested in the textual range of the electric guitar, so your particular hang-up in this regard may be problematic. Even so, I would hope that posting over half a dozen tracks that don't get anywhere near rock guitar would give you some clue that the guy had range.

also wtf Prince LOVES rock guitar, possibly the greatest living rock guitarist so idgi

Well I don't really care for Prince's guitar solos either. If rock guitar is used mostly as a rhythm instrument and the tune is otherwise tight, I can live with it; that's typically the case on a lot of his "rocking" tunes, though the more overtly rock ones I tend to dislike. And I'm not all interested in the electric guitar's textural range, I find the guttural and abrasive sounds typically used by experimental guitarists ugly and unappealing. Those qualities are why I don't much care for industrial music either, even if it doesn't use guitars.

Bowie's got plenty of stuff without showy rock guitars. "Young Americans" or "Fame" springs to mind - I assume you know those, though there are other "deep cuts" from that period that maybe would fit more into your requirements. You're still gonna have to get over his voice though.

Again, I'm not denying the guy didn't have range, I'm just not hearing anything special on those tunes that other electronic musicians haven't done better. Also, why are they all so short? You've barely begun to dip into the mood when it's over already. Electronic music like this is mood/trance music, it shouldn't be shortened to pop tune length, that's why Tangerine Dream had only 2 or 3 tunes on their 70s albums.

(xpost)

If it's an electric guitar and it's played through some fuzz/distortion filter

A "fuzz/distortion filter" is the opposite of what you appear to think it is.

Also, why are they all so short? You've barely begun to dip into the mood when it's over already. Electronic music like this is mood/trance music, it shouldn't be shortened to pop tune length,

can I just say how much I love handholding you/explaining everything

these songs collectively make up the second sides of "Low" and "Heroes". On the record they are all sequenced together and give the feel of a more unified, single piece. This was highly unusual for a "rock" record of the time and was definitely the product of Bowie's interest in and Eno's involvement with the krautrock/kozmische guys of the time like Moebius, Roedelius, etc.

I suppose Bowie and Eno could've opted for a side-long single track with no problem (certainly Eno was familiar with this approach), dunno why they didn't

I mean, I can understand that records like these may have been a gateway drug to electronic realms for those folks who grew up with rock music as The White People's Choice. But I've been listening to dance and electronic music since I was 11, it was my first love. I backtracked from Cosmic Baby to Tangerine Dream and from Carl Craig to Vangelis, I had no need for some rockster pied piper to lead me there.

(xpost)

"Okay, the first tune has rock guitar on it, so it already doesn't meet my qualifications."

new board description

My recommendation of these tracks isn't about "firsties" or anything like that - this stuff was contemporaneous with early krautrock/German electronic music and holds up well next to it imo and in some ways is even of a piece with it given where it was made and who by.

xp

idk how you feel about Cluster and Kraftwerk and Neu/La Dusseldorf, which are the nearest analogues to Bowie's work in this vein

I mean, I can understand that records like these may have been a gateway drug to electronic realms for those folks who grew up with rock music as The White People's Choice. But I've been listening to dance and electronic music since I was 11, it was my first love. I backtracked from Cosmic Baby to Tangerine Dream and from Carl Craig to Vangelis, I had no need for some rockster pied piper to lead me there.

(xpost)

― Tuomas, Wednesday, January 13, 2016 6:44 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And there are those of us who, after being immersed in Nono, Ligeti, Xenakis, Bayle, Pierre Henry, etc., managed to find Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music an extremely worthy composition.

The notion that a "rock" (whatever that means/loosely defined) artist can and will only, by definition, do a watered-down version of a particular approach is facile, lazy, and rarely stands up to scrutiny.

If it's an electric guitar and it's played through some fuzz/distortion filter and it's not used as a rhythm accompaniment, then it's rock guitar.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, January 13, 2016 6:02 PM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sonny Sharrock, Derek Bailey, Keith Rowe, and Kevin Drumm (among others) would likely dispute this.

well said on both counts

the hostility towards Tuomas' point of view itt is surprising. it's great that we have both artists, not *everyone* has to like either of them - but if I had to pick two that have the most fans and the widest swath of influence, it's Prince and Bowie.

exactly, yeah I'm surprised there could be a musichead out there who doesn't dig at least ONE Bowie album (one of the few artists I'd say that about) but I'm still proud to share a space on this cold earth with ya

The notion that a "rock" (whatever that means/loosely defined) artist can and will only, by definition, do a watered-down version of a particular approach is facile, lazy, and rarely stands up to scrutiny.

I didn't say that all rock musicians will automatically produce watered-down versions of other genres... (For example, a couple years ago this popular Finnish singer who used to do boring MOR dad rock music unexpectedly shifted into 80s style dance pop a la Michael Jackson, and the results were great! The difference between that "Let's Dance" is that he seems to have put his heart fully into it, so ) I'm just saying that these particular examples (the Youtubes Shakey posted) don't sound as good as similar records released by "proper" electronic musicians of the same era.

Sorry, that post is missing a part of a sentence:

The difference between that "Let's Dance" is that he seems to have put his heart fully into it, so he changed his vocal style to fit the sort of dance music he's doing, instead of singing like in a whole other genre.

I mean, I can understand that records like these may have been a gateway drug to electronic realms for those folks who grew up with rock music as The White People's Choice. But I've been listening to dance and electronic music since I was 11, it was my first love. I backtracked from Cosmic Baby to Tangerine Dream and from Carl Craig to Vangelis, I had no need for some rockster pied piper to lead me there.

(xpost)

― Tuomas, Wednesday, January 13, 2016 3:44 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that thing white people do etc

"I mean Bowie clearly loved dance music, specifically black American dance music, but also european electronic music, plus his whole androgyny/amorphous sexual politics thing"

just because he loved it, doesnt mean he made it. i mean, he made danceable, funky records, but not how chic would have. he made danceable, funky david bowie records. he always impressed his personality on them, and as bowie was not black, nor american, its inevitable the results would sound different. he wasnt like jagger, who often tried to sound like he was a country boy from the southern states. bowie was in fact MORE authentic than someone like jagger or plant, as he pretty much always just sounded english.

im waiting for someone to say that they dont like prince as much as prince often funked things up too much.

these two are two of my all time favourites and similiar in so many ways. lots of rock listeners listen to prince and think that everyone doing funk, soul or R&B etc should measure up to/sound like prince. while i always find it funny how bowie fans think they know all about electronic music just cos they listened to side 2 of heroes and low. i mean, those two sides are important to electronic music, but theyre not the be and end all. prince was important to a ton of chicago and detroit artists too though... no 1999, no jamie principle etc.

the beck as bowie/prince for the 90s almost holds up, except beck was never pop enough until much later in his career. though midnite vultures is classic (and his diamond dogs cover with timbo = all time classic, and what prince and bowie should/could have sounded more like, later in their careers).

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/14/beyonce-fans-bowie-audience-pushing-boundaries

The closest we have to a Bowie, in terms of a beloved figure who makes pop music that is more than the sum of its parts, is probably Beyoncé. But her music, while empowering, is a long way from the dramatic ambition of Bowie. While her knack for visual motif is strong, she often plays the role more of curator, bringing existing ideas from the worlds of visual art, film, fashion and underground music – rather than alchemising her own identity in the way that Bowie seemed to. But to say that modern music has lost its capacity for innovation, to embody big ideas or take the form of high art, would be wildly off point.

that seems totally off the mark (i have never thought of beyonce as a curator). MIA would be closer. gaga and grimes are also closer, if more obvious.

just because he loved it, doesnt mean he made it. i mean, he made danceable, funky records, but not how chic would have. he made danceable, funky david bowie records. he always impressed his personality on them, and as bowie was not black, nor american, its inevitable the results would sound different.

yeah can't argue w this

I mean, I can understand that records like these may have been a gateway drug to electronic realms for those folks who grew up with rock music as The White People's Choice. But I've been listening to dance and electronic music since I was 11, it was my first love. I backtracked from Cosmic Baby to Tangerine Dream and from Carl Craig to Vangelis, I had no need for some rockster pied piper to lead me there.

(xpost)

― Tuomas, Wednesday, January 13, 2016 5:44 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmao how are tangerine dream less "white rock dude's choice" than bowie? give me a fucking break, bowie had R&B chart hits!

guys

you're arguing with Tuomas

you do bring up a good point
anyway i'll contribute something useful this greg tate piece was good if it hasn't been linked in this discussion

http://www.mtv.com/news/2727414/brother-from-another-planet/

tuomas is what like 40 now? I keep thinking of him as some kinda childlike raver faun from narnia

prince

i was thinking david bowie is probably going to be the biggest celebrity death of my lifetime in terms of mourning, bc he crossed so many boundaries. across gender, race, sexuality, genre, he was critically acclaimed and a pop icon, etc. i like realize when dylan dies it will be a huge deal but dylan doesn't have the same mass appeal. when MJ died he was unfortunately kind of a joke to many and had fallen from grace and while it was shocking it also wasn't, in a way. james brown was huge too, but not unexpected in the same manner. i could be wrong, but that's sort of how it seems to me. he was a particularly beloved figure despite not approaching a lot of these other folks i've mentioned in terms of sales or direct impact.

like there seems to be a sadness and admiration at how he ended his life accompanying this that goes beyond a lot of what i've seen w/r/t other celeb passings.

uh McCartney

but yeah Bowie has a broader appeal/sphere of impact than a lot of the other biggies I'm not looking forward to losing (Dylan, George Clinton, Neil Young, Brian Wilson)

I keep thinking of him as some kinda childlike raver faun from narnia

haha yes. practically a character in a Bowie song

mccartney....i don't know, maybe. i mean people are going to mourn the shit out of him but Bowie's passing feels like something else entirely for some reason. can't put my finger on it.

I know there are plenty of people here who hate the Beatles but their undiminished role as ground-zero for pop musical culture for an awful lot of people - more than Bowie (they sold a *lot* more records) - cannot be disputed

i guess the only thought i have about McCartney dying is who's going to play hey jude at the memorial concert?

ringo

kanye

i'm also theorizing under the assumption that mccartney will be around for years to come and it will be less shocking when he passes.

D grohl xpost

because people don't identify with mccartney in the same way

I don't think Bowie's appeal lay in identifying with him but even so, McCartney is just a bigger figure in music than Bowie, I don't think this is deniable.

I think Bowie created a kind of ideal/ideology/iconography that listeners/fans could identify/connect with - a lot more than Macca, Dylan too perhaps

McCartney will live to be 100, unfortunately

Dylan, though....any day, now...

there's an emotional connection with some kind of Bowie persona (and it's not even a Bowie persona bcz that's a p weird persona, it's more like the idea of music as existential counterculture or smth) that I don't get with Beatles/Macca (maaaaybe Lennon)

McCartney will live to be 100, unfortunately

lol yeah I kinda believe this, some combo of his perverse ego + clean hippie living

Bowie is closer to Elvis in that there's a lot of extra-musical symbolism in him that was important to people, like a religious iconic thing, whereas Dylan and Beatles -- while definitely having a very large following and cultlike devotoin -- are still IMO sort of bound to the "these guys wrote these great songs I love"....With Bowie or Elvis I was sort of aware of the image of Ziggy Stardust or Vegas sunglasses/jumpsuit Elvis before I even engaged with the music

xp Yeah, I mean he did his fair share of coke through the 70s/mid-80s, but it'll be his ego that keeps him alive long enough to have his brain put into an android

Bowie is closer to Elvis in that there's a lot of extra-musical symbolism in him that was important to people, like a religious iconic thing, whereas Dylan and Beatles -- while definitely having a very large following and cultlike devotoin -- are still IMO sort of bound to the "these guys wrote these great songs I love"....With Bowie or Elvis I was sort of aware of the image of Ziggy Stardust or Vegas sunglasses/jumpsuit Elvis before I even engaged with the music

My first exposure to The Beatles was through Sgt Pepper's/Magical Mystery Tour; as a result, I am not really buying the idea of image as a secondary component of Beatles appreciation.

Recognition of Bowie as an icon or pop cultural behemoth figure is universal enough that his death has had a super wide impact, but quite a lot of his discography is somewhat outré and weird, and his presence in the super cool "alternative canon" axis of Lou Reed, Iggy, Eno etc. and his influence on punk, post-punk, indie etc. make it easier to think of him as being a more specific or personal love than the Beatles, who are for and of everyone.

McCartney's passing will be huge though obviously. And I think people feel a personal connection to him for sure. I know I do.

DJP otm idg Beatles imagery is ubiquitous

whether its four-guys-in-suits or psych costumes or serious beardos that stuff is deeply wired into pop culture

and the Beatles had broad appeal across a wide variety of demos the same way Bowie did (even moreso imo) - black artists *loved* the Beatles, there were avant-garde connections, they influenced everybody

v good band

USA seems much more obsessed with the Beatles than the UK tbh.

I knew that anyway but it gets confirmed every time Beatles thread pops up on ILM... every 2 days or so.

like i said i can't quite put my finger on it but I think UMS is right. the beatles have imagery and this iconic thing but they're also more grounded and their imagery was less elevated and less, idk, supernatural. bowie does have this aura of a deity that i don't think any of the beatles possessed in the same manner, despite being the biggest band of all time by FAR. also i think bowie's inherent likability comes into play, he was at once unattainable and approachable.

I also think nomar is grossly underselling the impact of/reaction to Michael Jackson's death

Not sure where this idea of Bowie as esp. likable is coming from.

like, right now every musician and music critic in my Facebook feed has said multiple things mourning David Bowie.

when MJ died, EVERYONE in my Facebook feed said something. Like almost with no exaggeration, every single person who posted said something.

I keep thinking of him as some kinda childlike raver faun from narnia

haha yes. practically a character in a Bowie song

I'm a fawn from narniaaaaa
I'm a child raver not googling for you

I guess with Dylan I feel slightly more prepared psychologically since he did an entire dying-album in '97 and he seems very mortal whereas Bowie only just released his requiem album

was surprised at how hard MJs death hit me

Like almost with no exaggeration, every single person who posted said something

I definitely said something lol

i think there's a particular impact bowie's passing had but it also has a lot to do with the timing of everything the past week. new album, one that was regarded as his best in a long time (and not in the sense of "his best since HEATHEN!!" but like actually his best since the early '80s, then he passes away and the album was revealed as a farewell. idk though you're right DJP, MJ's death was enormous, i'm probably underselling it (though i think the reactions from many were more like "well that's sad but he sure was a mess huh" and less mournful than they should have been), and i also forgot about Elvis' death which did occur during my lifetime too.

bowie's inherent likability comes into play, he was at once unattainable and approachable.

I recommend maybe investigating some people's (including non-celebrities) accounts of interacting with Macca. He is well known for having a remarkable knack for putting people at ease and being convivial and friendly - in fact iirc one of the obits citing this quality of Bowie's also explicitly noted that he was like Macca in this respect.

and lennon too...i can't imagine what the reaction was too that but i DO remember that when the news came in about both Lennon and Reagan being shot, my dad was playing folk guitar in the living room (harry chapin covers i'm sure) and my mom yelled from the TV room both times "oh my god!" and my dad ran in there with his acoustic with us kids chasing him. i remember he was busted up about lennon and with reagan the reaction was curiously...muted.

There was a thread on Lennon's death, which left me bemused I must admit.

Some of the stories on it, that is, not the thread itself.

ilx older than i thought

Here come the Double Fantasy re-appraisals.

― Are We Not Men? (Gary S.), Thursday, December 8, 1980 11:47 PM (35 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

like realize when dylan dies it will be a huge deal but dylan doesn't have the same mass appeal.

Dylan has outsold Bowie in America, like, five to one or something, and it's got nothing to do with how much more prolific Dylan's been.

Bowie has more of a wide appeal. Noise kids and electronic people won't be crying in their beer when Dylan kicks the bucket.

Or the queer community for that matter.

Or the UK.

"JUDAS!"

If you mean that casual fans of music might have a passing acquaintance with a few songs ("Changes," "Life on Mars..?" "Space Oddity," "Let's Dance") like they wouldn't with Dylan, sure.

Bowie has more of a wide appeal. Noise kids and electronic people won't be crying in their beer when Dylan kicks the bucket.

every kid who has ever picked up an acoustic guitar will though and frankly that is a larger portion of the populace

well, not EVERY kid

nah that's true

Noise kids and electronic people won't be crying in their beer when Dylan kicks the bucket.

I know a number of noisy and/or electronic people who will be weeping copiously when Dylan checks out.

I certainly will...but as many as Bowie? Dylan seems so irrelevant in comparison

fwiw i'm a much bigger Dylan fan

good news guys, i killed bob dylan

so we can find out

i own more dylan records and i probably like him more too. but i think bowie certainly crosses more lines. gender lines as well, i know plenty of women who are not merely fans of his but identify with him, which i think is rare for a male musician.

I have always liked the "world's biggest cult figure" descriptor for Dylan

oh, absolutely. we'll be inundated with "Dylan was a wife-beating misogynist racist piece of shit" think pieces as soon as his death is announced. it actually took an entire day for those to show up for Bowie!

In 1966, yes.(xp)

I have always liked the "world's biggest cult figure" descriptor for Dylan

― Οὖτις,

that's what I called Bowie, you can't have it.

I'm positive that's come up on some Dylan thread, I'm not claiming credit!

https://bowiesongs.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/bddb.jpg

oh, absolutely. we'll be inundated with "Dylan was a wife-beating misogynist racist piece of shit" think pieces as soon as his death is announced. it actually took an entire day for those to show up for Bowie!

― flappy bird

your tiresome fixation on people criticizing famous men for wife-beating is very telling of the quality of your character

Bowie's a bit different from all these other artists in how he straddles a wide swath of subcultures and decades. And to be more specific I don't mean simply that he has been active across several decades (hell, Dylan will probably still be touring in the 22nd century). I'm referring to the enduring depth of his engagement with each decade. Not to mention his straddling of popular culture and the avant-garde.

Maybe this scope of connectedness is part of what makes his passing different. Penelope-like, he wove a web that eventually was attached to so many of our tribes that in a shadowy and for most of us subconscious way he was the spider that could be counted on to keep the whole thing together, or at least to tend to it... (OK maybe I've gone overboard with this last sentence).

I think British people here (assuming nomar is a British) are wildly overestimating Bowie's popularity in the states. Popular sure, but nothing close to ubiquitous. The only Bowie songs I heard before I was an adult and got into him myself on some music nerd shit were "Changes", "Let's Dance", and maaaaybe "Under Pressure". I certainly don't see him being huge in middle America, but yeah he has a certain prestige among coastal cultural types -- like Alfred said, a cult figure. There are quite a few musicians whose deaths will be bigger deals in the US.

he never had a #1 record here before! which is crazy, but there it is

Like Bowie vs McCartney? I remember George Harrison's death being as big or bigger deal than this (Time Magazine cover iirc?) and that was George freaking Harrison.

A couple days after Michael Jackson died, I stood in a giant crowd of people chanting "MJ! MJ! MJ!" at a DJ who had just finished playing, so we could summon her back to play another song by him. I love Bowie, but I don't see that happening with him.

Reverend OTM. The only Bowie fans I knew growing up were a couple of eccentric arty girls.

I think British people here (assuming nomar is a British) are wildly overestimating Bowie's popularity in the states.

I think nomar is American and I was definitely under the impression that it was US posters who were wildly overestimating Bowie's popularity in the states!

That's why I give side eye to the Bowie >> Dylan comparison. Dylan has several multiplatinum albums in the United States alone and enjoys a cultural force and cache that Bowie couldn't reach.

ILX's reaction to Bowie's death has surprised me because I've never believed Bowie was anywhere near as significant figure in the US as he was in the UK.

ILX sort of originated with Britishes and anglophiles, though.

and rock critics

Not many Britishes on it now tbh.

ILX Bowie sort of originated with Britishes and anglophiles, though.

― EveningStar (Sund4r),

I just tried to imagine a message board dominated by Midwestern construction workers and how it would react to Jon Bon Jovi's death.

I'm trying to imagine this message board and how it wld react to Jon Bon Jovi's death.

That was where I went next.

ran out of prayers, RIP

British people here (assuming nomar is a British) are wildly overestimating Bowie's popularity in the states.

dang that's cold : /

but I'm probably overestimating it yeah.

But I feel like people (maybe even now nomar as well, with this latest post) are misreading nomar's posts. I didn't read any of them as making any conclusions about Bowie's relative popularity anywhere. It was more about something particular ("can't quite put a finger on it" etc.) about Bowie and what he means.

Ha, apparently Jon Bon Jovi blocked The Next Day from going #1!

and it's ok if all we're talking about is "eccentric arty girls" (so to speak) because "eccentric arty girls" and their ilk might be a minority within any given county, but they're scattered throughout the land.

http://slate.me/1RohYZq

Ha!

"I didn't say that all rock musicians will automatically produce watered-down versions of other genres... (For example, a couple years ago this popular Finnish singer who used to do boring MOR dad rock music unexpectedly shifted into 80s style dance pop a la Michael Jackson, and the results were great! The difference between that "Let's Dance" is that he seems to have put his heart fully into it, so ) I'm just saying that these particular examples (the Youtubes Shakey posted) don't sound as good as similar records released by "proper" electronic musicians of the same era."

^soul-ism (or R&Bism/dance-pop-ism, etc). :P basically saying that bowie should have tried harder to sound less english, less white, less 'rock', or just less 'bowie' (ie detached, a bit arch, 'stiff') when maybe it was bringing all those things to lets dance that made it what it was. now back to the debate over 'who had the better death'. bowie obv bowed out a lot more gracefully than JB, MJ or other artists who were still a little too caught in the crassness of showbizziness. DB seemed to not really want much to do with all that.

got to take greg tate's piece with a pinch of salt (was bowie really inspired by kendrick lamar?!, and Ive never too keen on comments like "Andy Warhol was so white he was black” but whatever...), but yeah, i always wondered about that p-funk mention of bowie. sure, clinton doesnt dis bowie, but he doesnt really give him props as such either (or maybe the lack of a dis should be considered a compliment).

"We were listening to a lot of Kendrick Lamar," says producer Tony Visconti.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/the-inside-story-of-david-bowies-stunning-new-album-blackstar-20151123

funny thinking about bowie/prince/morissey - i could totally see prince covering bowies version of i know its gonna happen someday.

you beautiful men

looking for a picture with both of them on it

Gene Simmons,

"Prince, Glen Frey, Bowie. These are people who changed lives..."

haha

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/7/7e/Susanthesethings.jpg

Too sad: prince and bowie

i'll stick with you baby for a thousand years

http://www.breatheheavy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bowie-prince.jpg

Couldn't work Glenn Frey in there?

http://youtu.be/BSUGJBcNF0E?t=2m41s

Can't wait for the paintings of Lemmy, Prince, Bowie, Glenn Frey and Keith Emerson looking soulful and jamming on a cloud start cropping up.

http://i.imgur.com/npsQVdS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kQ1LXPC.jpg?1

Lol both of these assholes are DEAD

Prince covered "Heroes" last month in Toronto.

(All video footage of the above seems to have disappeared from the webz.)

Audio tho:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqDX8-s6jYI

i know its early days yet, but i imagine a far bigger outpouring of pieces on him in the US than the UK, compared to bowie.

Lol both of these assholes are DEAD

― • (sleepingbag), Friday, April 22, 2016 12:12 AM (two years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:-(

sleepingbag makes some strong points

:D

I wish Prince had covered "Win"...

― Intelligence Lends Mojo (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, March 5, 2009

damn good call

"Win" is basically the perfect Bowie song, I doubt anyone could do it better.