new york times on why sage francis and underground hip hop is boring, devoid of fun or enjoyment

"mainstream hip-hop heroes have already claimed so much of the best turf for themselves"

Is this the guy that had "beef" with Paul Barman?

at least Barman had a sense of humor.

Back in 2001 I described The Blueprint as an example of an album featuring a guy wearing mirrorshades walking down a hall of mirrors looking at himself in every mirror he could find and thinking "Damn I'm great!" And that's why Jay-Z rules and why in comparison based on the above description Sage Francis sounds like pain incarnate.

*) I saw Sole, that was not so good, and Grand Buffet, who should try to be be the white OutKast.

Dare I ask?

Now Mr. Blount -- Phil's a good guy, based on other threads. I don't agree with his take on modern hip-hop at all but that's no reason to go into overkill.

"a white guy? no homophobic lyrics? a punk label? clearly this isn't really hip-hop. i demand jewellery!"

In the simplest possible language, Ned (because I'm just a stupid rock fan), please explain why this is a good thing. It sounds awfully Jim Morrison to me. (I have heard The Blueprint - I was inexplicably on Def Jam's promo list for a little while a couple of years ago.)

The point is over there. I believe you've missed it.

It sounds awfully Jim Morrison to me

Well there was the one Doors sample. ;-)

To my mind it's a celebration of the self as artwork. Celebrations of the self like any other thing out there can fail miserably as well as succeed, and the success came from a combination of sparkling and varied arrangements from pros and up-and-comers both, Jay-Z's easily commanding performances, and more than a little chutzpah. If the music and performance can't carry it off, then all's dull failure, but if it CAN be carried off, then it's all HOLY FUCK! Compare to a slew of James Brown's best moments, which are self-celebratory to brilliant extremes.

Only if you're fixating on the lyrics. Because I spend so much time listening to death metal, which is specifically performed and mixed so the lyrics will be inaudible/indecipherable, I usually get annoyed when the words to a song are right up in my face. Thus, when I listen to James Brown, I rarely pay attention to the words. I treat his songs like jazz pieces - I dive into the instrumental interplay.

This is why so much current hip-hop (the stuff I see/hear on MTV, anyway) fails me. It's not just the stupidity of the lyrics, it's also the unsatisfying music. Synth blurts and novelty percussion effects are simply, well, insufficient.

Making sure you're aware.

Only if you're fixating on the lyrics

I'm notorious for not fixating on lyrics! So when something succeeds as well as it does on that front I'm pretty happy! :-)

Synth blurts and novelty percussion effects are simply, well, insufficient.

And there's opinion, and there we differ and that's all right. Woo! (I mean, it could be argued that blurred guitar riffs and gargled vocals are insufficient to other ears, for instance.)

but see, i hit the nail on the head. the guy has no idea what it is in a performer like SF that would appeal to someone who loves hip-hop, which - whatever his personal predilictions - makes him an ignorant liability of a music journalist. well, doesn't it?

why yes, yes it does.

Nice to see you know Kelefa's writing so well.

Boogah, I'm not an automatic Kelefa fan -- for instance, his rockism article last year frustrated me on the level of it going over absolutely NO new ground, though I see the argument on a level of getting those concepts over to an audience not necessarily aware of it. So give it a rest.

Sage Francis's lyrics are more challenging to the status quo, and make you think, a lot more than Jay-Z's "Boy I hope the cops don't find the drugs in my trunk" pop songs.

True nuff. Was the writing being criticized in the end as much as the author eventually was, though?

God's not a woman/ He's a big white guy in the sky/ And the deserts are reflections of his eyes

I could see how you could say these lyrics sound challenged, but they're not challenging by any means.

i only ever criticized the guy's writing, even if i did generalize rather than make it specific to this review. but if you put yourself out there, you are going to get shot at, even if you only write one dumb review in your life. and that was a really dumb review - i totally stand by that.

and the whole undie vs. bling thing is tired, but it's kinda silly to pretend like hip-hop was always about bling. Gil Scot-Heron, Last Poets, Grandmaster Flash, etc., etc. and so on.

Neither is Jay-Z.

"Don't look at me." I can feel the burn of her stare on my sensitive skin/
I'm anti-social and I don't know how conversational sentences begin/
Plus, I'm allergic to the medicine of sexual healing/
This impotence is sickening. She's sensual...appealing/
Now I'm covering up my crotch region by crossing my legs/
Lost in thoughts of whores in my bed. It's awful...so I'm forcing my head/
into my forearms. I should...invite her for a cup of Joe/
It would do more harm than good...I just know/

I mean...she's no Natalie Portman, and I've been kind of holding out for her/
Naturally...Now my thoughts spin...and she's on the "out" for sure/
Gradually...contort my mindframe so no doubts occur/
I activate testicular bravery and I shout to her/

Our eyes lock.
And time stops.../

She floats over to my spot...
and I say "Hi, I'm not/

trying to hit on you like the way all these other guys jock/
I just wanna' let you know...I'm the type of person who lies a lot/

Sometimes I fart and I pick my nose like a maniac/
I'd be glad to front the cost of a date with you as long as you pay me back/
If we ever reach the friendship level where things like that are shared/
And I know my facial hair is weird...but I've been waiting for someone like you to shave my beard/

I'm usually more discreet about my insecurities, but today...I just ain't prepared."/
In all honesty...this dame just stared/
And I was like "Uhhh...yeah.../
So ummm...heh..."
Nervous twitches were initiated and out nostrils flared/
Our eyes started wandering and I was rocking in my chair/

I just continued on scared that I lost her...in my upfront approach/
She looked at my napkin and noticed what I wrote/
...which was nothing
I said "The funny thing is...I could have used you as a muse/
Wrote you sonnets in iambic pentameter and then produced/
Mass amounts of unsent love letters and out-of-tune love ballads/
Some valid...but most just to get you thinking of marriage/
It's untrue. I don't want to create a first impression I can't live up to/
I...just...wanna...

She said "Nuff said. I'm a theme park. Ride me until the sun sets."/
So I jumped up on her shoulders as we exited the entrance.

*snerk, snick*

"FLAME ON!"

C-Man?

"Saluting your testicles bravely, SIR!"

C-Man?

Nah, comparatively more minor. Still funny, though.

why does kelefa have to take the tired old "you don't know what fun is" angle?

And this is actually a very good question, sick as I am of the 'you don't like fun?' dealy-bop and all.

And this is actually a very good question, sick as I am of the 'you don't like fun?' dealy-bop and all

here, here.

that charge is usually levelled at indie rock/indie rap, and I dunno, I go to those shows and people seem to be having fun to me...drinking and smoking and chatting and trying to pick each other up and whatnot....

Most of us who write elsewhere have taken ideas or quotes or more from ILM -- it's just part of what happens! We're a bunch of happy loudmouths and yay us. ;-)

POSSIBLE NEGATIVES OF MAINSTREAM HIP-HOP:
That meant no slick outfits (the rapper and his band all wore black jumpsuits), no jewelry, no high-life boasts or low-life threats.

POSSIBLE POSITIVES:
But it also meant no impossibly smooth stanzas filled with hidden jokes and counterrhythms; no mesmerizing stories or irresistible refrains; no state-of-the-art beats or propulsive club tracks.

At no point did Kelefa say that Jay-Z was superior to Sage Francis in all ways. The point of the article was that you can have some of these positives (which aren't the only good attributes, necessarily) without the stated negatives.

In some places Sage Francis gets carte blanche to be bitter about everyone, ally with no one, and talk about the world going to shit while he can't get a girl. Great. Don't bitch when some other rapper talks about succeeding and having lots of women, especially not to the point of calling them out on stage. They're both as navel gazing, but one is actually more constructive.

but still, fuck the "you hate fun" angle.

This will change your opinion of Sage forever and ever. Totally fuxxxed up.

I've actually had that recording with Apathy for about three years. It came with one of his tour-only albums (Still Sick, maybe?) It's awesomely bad. There actually are some funny lines, but the rest is so shitty the tapes should have been burned.

That sounded like I was bragging. I meant it more like, "Oh Jesus Christ, I've actually had that shit for THREE YEARS? HELP!"

It ain't DjDee or any of the usual suspects, more an amusing in-joke. Suffice to say boogah is serious but sure isn't worth treating seriously.

that sage/apathy thing was really retarded. but funny. reminds me of when the guys on the beatbox on radio k used to let the rhymesayers guys go on and on and on.....

Um fuck you no it's not.

I like sage. Or rather, I was entertained by Personal Journals - overwrought lyrics + all - and I also enjoyed Non-Prophets. Haven't heard the new one, doesn't sound too interesting to me, because I can see how he could come off as a harsh lecturer etc. But I don't think he sucks and Sage has definitely done some stuff I've enjoyed. Nerd rap blah blah blah whatever. He's an asshole and thats sort of the appeal.

Also, people who dislike him because he's "rockist" or whatever: Fuck you. Because I can't help but think that that kind of shit is harder to pass by critics than flagrant misogyny etc.

I think K Sanneh's article was perfectly well written and he may be correct (like I said - haven't heard the new album.) From past experience I think that what I get from Sage is different than what he's looking for. But yet again - I don't really feel that compelled to buy the new album. And I do think Sage has his moments.

xp ned dont worry i didnt take it personally.

What's a good Sage song that might change people's minds?

(And "Climb Trees" if you like that.)

He covers a lot of ground in terms of personality, although obviously as far as beats go he's pretty much new school mid-period shit (which is fine w me, its not like he wants you to dress in cross colours and do the cabbage patch to "climb trees," this is clearly headphone moping music). But he goes from gruff to empathic to sardonic to clever to gimmicky to outraged to self-flagellating to lashing out etc. etc. and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. He's an eccentric weirdo (an eccentric beirdo, judging from recent pictures) and he's a vegan who doesn't allow smoking at shows and did the "Fuck Clear Channel" tour (which I can't imagine anyone here wouldn't get behind in some regard) and he wrote one of the earliest response songs to 9/11. And this kind of attitude is reflected in his music. He's a weirdo.

Anyway enough here's the song, if you like it you like it if you think its corny you are right and if you don't like it i understand. I've spent a lot of time talking about an artist I haven't honestly listened to much lately (the Non-Prophets album was one of my favorites from 2k3 alongside T.I. and Jay-Z) and I hope saying that doesn't undercut my argument (it probably does) but I guess what I'm getting at is that you should judge for yrself.

Sage Francis - Black Sweatshirt

twintesticular insomniactivators!

http://www.softcom.net/users/nye/knormal/sa/skankzilla.jpg

"Women and men are pissed/
When they Kiss/
The exchange spit that is venomous."

Hell yea.

So this sort of poorly-rhymed pseudo insight is what makes Francis better than Jay-Z?

I didn't say he was better than anyone, and you should listen to Sage's delivery. I love Jay-Z, but why would you use him as an argument for an "insightful" lyricist? Jay-Z is the best and I love him for what he does, but every Jay-Z rap is either about:

1. Being really rich.
2. Life as crack dealer before he was really rich (and how lucky he is to still be alive and enjoy the riches).
3. Being skillful (on the mic, in bed, and while hustlin'-- especially compared to other inferior and less skillful MCs).
3. All the girls he fucks (and why they want to fuck him-- ususally for reasons #1-3).
4. That one girl that he wishes he hadn't cheated on (we'll call her "Ma") and how he's sad and wishes things had been different, but, again [see reasons #1-4].
5. The fact that he is no longer rapping.

Jay-Z: The Great Illuminator.

But, then again, I've only heard a couple of his albums, so maybe I'm not getting the whole picture.

1) Using SAT words as though they were signifiers of intelligence
2) Complaining a lot about mainstream rap in their rhymes, especially when coupled with failure to be as tight as the better mainstream rappers
3) General bitterness and lack of ability to have fun (as cited above)

I'm not saying all undie rap does this.

Not totally different things if the orange is continually and interminably defining itself as not the apple.

Apparently?

"I like 99 rappers, but Jay-Z ain't one," Sage Francis declared at the Bowery Ballroom on Wednesday night.

whenever I begin talking about being troubled by misogyny in music, I get the sense people think I'm being corny.

Ha, I can't wait to listen to this battle when I get home, it sounds hilarious.

Yeah, it seems to me the K.Sanneh review was in large part responding to Sage's presentation of himself in re: mainstream hip-hop. Point being that if you're going to talk shit about Jay-Z, in New York City no less, you better bring something along to back it up. It sounds like Sage was the one setting up the comparison, Kelefa just followed it to its logical conclusion. I guess it's understandable that undie hip-hop to some degree defines itself in opposition to the mainstream, but the more interesting stuff to me is the stuff that just doesn't concern itself with the mainstream and follows its own weird paths to wherever.

To go off-topic for a moment, I've been arguing for a while that antirockism is for teacher's pets, and that "rockism" is a word that needs to be retired. (Not that I think the hoo-hah over the word doesn't raise interesting issues; but rather that the issues would be raised better if people stopped relying on a lazy - or nonexistent - concept.)

*cheers*

*is brutally killed*

This is good too.

I suspect it's the larger frustration felt at the fact that though many have slain the ill-described beast, it still lives because it can only ever be dealt with individually rather than collectively. ("All your favorite oldies! No rap! Listen to KDULL...")

Pre-NY Times he reviewed Trick Daddy & Trina for the Voice (he preferred Trick Daddy = proof that he is secretly a r*ckist), reviewed Kodwo Eshun for an intellectual journal that focused on things Pan African. I assume he's been doing this for a while.

http://tiny.abstractdynamics.org/archives/005034.html

the sort of thing anyone over 19 regards as cornball, but I think cornball is brave.

dear god please shut up shut up shut up all these internal tee-hees are getting on my nerves.

I guess they're a part of the same circle of white boy indie rap but other than that I'm not sure i see a connection. I mean they do diff music namean?

Wait, both Slug AND Ant? YOW

Didn't I read somewhere that Kelefa actually edited/edits a journal on things Pan-African? Or did I make that up? Google time ...