CONTROVERSY, ILM-STYLE: HipHop, R&B, and their influence on chilluns

teaches kids (both boys and girls, of all races and classes) to disrespect women - and as such represents no alternative to mainstream american culture (as much as its defenders would like to see it as "subversive")

Well, i don't think that it represents no alternative to mainstream amer. culture, i think it's certainly still subversive, although with respect to misogyny etc. then i'd agree, there are very conservative threads within mainstream american culture that bubble up in popular music.

i'm not really sure what i would do, if i felt i could do something. tell kids to grow up? like that will work. tell them they won't get any acting like jerks to chix? that won't fly either (and let's face it - some girls (not ones i'm interested in btw) seem to like jerks - prolly a result of this sort of conditioning!).

i am interested on ilm's take on this. not sure if it's as common in other cities (i didn't really notice shit like this in chicago as much - but then i took public transportation less then too), in nyc it seems rampant. to the point that i actively hate riding the train when school lets out.

About three years ago, I taught theatre at this government-funded summer camp for disadvanted youth, and all the campers were black from ages seven to eleven. anyway, during every lunch break, all the campers would crowd around the base of this TV mounted way up on a wall and stare at B.E.T. They knew all the rappers, dances, signs, lyrics--everything! it was incredible.. but is that a bad thing? i never saw them "slapping their bitches" or anything like that, but I broke up a fight between two of the kids and one of them said to the other, "You gonna be dead tomorrow!" That kind of shook me up, so I asked the proposed victim if he thought the the threat was serious. He said something like, "Maaaaaaaan, he don't got no gun." Phew. "Maybe his cousin does, though."

and one time (this is going to sound REALLY weird) i stumbled on this file of all the students that the counselor at the camp maintained. it had all sorts of twisted information, like when they lost their virginity and how many sexual partners the kids claimed to have had.. ten years old!

have i said anything worthile? i'm going to stop. i don't know what the fuck i'm talking about. a night of catching up on half a semester of metaphysics turned into a night of guiness swilling... ugh..

(there's no way a 30 yo slovenly-dressed white dude has any authority over any teenager).

i'm going to hold you to that!

blount, yesterday on the 7 coming back from shea (your fellow georgian john rocker once said it was something like "freaks" and "pink-hair'd faggots" or somesuch that ride it, 'member?) there was this hispanic-manic-panic kid looking about 13-14 with a kick-ass black sabbath t-shirt and bondage pants. he was just riding, sullen, by himself, not harassing anything with boobs and a vagina. kids still listen to rock, ozzy teaches respect yo' mama, etc., etc. HIGH-larious.

to hstencil - do you reall think that rich african-americans rapping about crime/race/culture is not subversive? Think about the implications in a country with a past like ours!

and one time (this is going to sound REALLY weird) i stumbled on this file of all the students that the counselor at the camp maintained. it had all sorts of twisted information, like when they lost their virginity and how many sexual partners the kids claimed to have had.. ten years old!

i live in a predominantly african-american neighborhood (no "you hate black people and your neighbors" card, blount - i love where i live and think it's the best place in nyc to live).

in the early 90s i was a camp counselor (think "humpty dance" or nwa era). stuff was explicit then, but i don't remember kids acting in the way they do now. maybe it's different tho since i was an "authority figure" whereas on the c i'm just another shlump on his way to/from work.

(there's no way a 30 yo slovenly-dressed white dude has any authority over any teenager).

i'm going to hold you to that!

your posts are proof.

ok so what's the reason you left rock out then?

yeah but as i described i don't remember early 90s kids (having been one myself back then) acting this way despite exposure to nwa/2 live/etc. maybe kentucky kids are just more polite?

i left rock out because duh i don't see many rock/goth/metal kids acting like this (i assure you there are plenty in nyc tho! some are even minorities/poor!). they're mostly the loner type.

xpost - no, dizzle, when the status quo is reinforced, i don't see how hiphop/r&b is "revolutionary" or changing diddly-squat.

oh man. go easy. when i started writing it, hstencil was hanging out to dry!

probably.

no, dizzle, when the status quo is reinforced, i don't see how hiphop/r&b is "revolutionary" or changing diddly-squat.

Well what do you expect from, you know, popular music? It can ONLY be culturally subversive, its not going to create some sort of magical economic justice or something, and its very culturally subversive!

xp hstencil but O'Reilly is tapping into these "morals," his motives are irrelevent - the "silent majority" are not the ones putting O'Reilly on the pop charts, their kids are.

"hey, dirtah, babee i got your money don't you worry"

xp:his motives are completely relevant! argh why are so many pop apologists (not that i know if you are one, per se) on ILM unwilling to look at pop culture thru an economic lens!? o'reilly is about, yes, tapping into morals that aren't his -- in order to increase fox's viewership which in turn affects fox's ad sales rates! duh!

What does this have to do with what I'm saying exactly? My point is that O'Reilly may not care about these so-called "morals" but he's tapping into some very REAL feelings from his viewers. Rap is subversive when you have the parents watching O'Reilly and hating the rap music and the kids just want to listen to 50 Cent.

Is Bill O'Reilly subversive when the parents listen to rap music and the kids just want right-wing political dogma?

xp dom yes obviously.

you sure it wasn't the riot grrrrls? haha just kidding.

What does this have to do with what I'm saying exactly? My point is that O'Reilly may not care about these so-called "morals" but he's tapping into some very REAL feelings from his viewers.

my point is, it doesn't matter even if his viewers "feel strongly" about these morals and act on them by watching o'reilly, because then they're supporting the very thing they're condemning.

Rap is subversive when you have the parents watching O'Reilly and hating the rap music and the kids just want to listen to 50 Cent.

i dunno. again i hate to make this a rock v. rap argument (too late! sez blount) and it'd be way specious and dumb to say this but, hey look:

50s-60s-70s - rock predominance in american music culture coincides with civil rights movement, anti-war movement, feminism, gay rights movement, la raza, etc.

80s-90s-00s - waning rock predominance, waxing hiphop predominance in american culture coincides with reagan, bush I + first gulf war (to "liberate" islamic kingdom), clinton (liberal my ass he killed welfare + monica) and bush II (we all know what a mess that is).

(the preceding socioculturalpolitical "analysis" not to be taken seriously, obv.!) (not even by you, blount!)

xpost - i wasn't accusing you dizzle, just putting that out there as a pre-emptive measure even tho this thred is pretty much designed for CONTROVERSY!

http://www.musicmatic.de/P/Prince_5a.jpg

"we" "right"

xp its ok no hard feelings.

i think the difference between white kids watching BET and black kids watching BET is that the performers on BET are black, and the content of so many rap videos is literally shot after shot of black people in positions of wealth, sex, and power. so i guess the assumption (whether it's bullshit or not) is that young, poor black kids see their respected, er, idols saying this or wearing this, and so they emulate them.. this all sounds so damn white of me, but is it wrong to say that white kids have a lot more varied accepted public figures to emulate?

xpost exactly matos! check it:

"i wish we all were nude" /= fake tittie showing in 50 cent vid while 50's ugly mug wears versace (not that i wanna see fiddy naked either, yugh) (hell i don't even like hearing him much less seeing his ugly ass)

"I wish there were no rules" /= "keep this bitch in line, pack the sc, ban abortion, outlaw homos, buy pepsi/luda cds," etc.

(obv. my elevation of prince as anarcho-bacchanalian GOD is tongue-in-cheek, like most of this thread")

and i'm talking about pre-teen young here.

hmm, two tracks that owe EVERYTHING to 80s hip-hop artists there...

i'd rather have my kids listen to neither nelly nor louis xiv but:

1. they wouldn't listen to me anyway and
2. i ain't never havin' kids so it's moot

hhahahaha you mean the stuff bowie and the other brits stole from iggy, prince, et al?

what would you blame this on? right-wing evangelist interference in media or the dominance of macho hip-hop? or both? or neither?

hey you've got The Bravery tho...

I figured you meant actual glammed-up heterosexuals tho right? (more Duran Duran than Erasure/PSBs?). The funny thing is, both the likes of Good Charlotte and The Killers love a bit of slap...

i dunno i know a lot of people that like both.

ha!

1. rock had a crazy misogyny binge back in the day, i suppose, but nowadays its mostly over. all the big bands are like creed or something.... green day was huge this year among the high school set ... bowling for soup had a huge hit w/ middle-school kids... edgy rock has died, and therefore so has a great deal of the misogyny, which has never been that huge anyway and at least since i've been alive has always been objected to as soon as it apears--i mean recall the firestorm over nirvana's 'rape me' for example! The last super-popular misogynist rock band I can remember is NIN.

2. af-am kids are not the only audience for hip-hop--so many white kids listen to it now that it serves two functions: a) representing af-am kids to themselves and b) representing af-am kids to white people. A lot of white kids get off on the stereotype of the Big Black Man with His and Hos towels in the bathroom and his Big Gun. So hip-hop videos, for example, are as much about marketing as they are about 'culture'--I remember the guys from R.E.M. (the whitest band ever? esp. nowadays) saying at some point that he hated filming videos because they are "commercials," and that is obviously true--so it's fair to evaluate this aspect of rap culture in terms of lowest-common-denominator, T&A-wagging junk--the white culture equivalent is probably all the pseudo-porn mags so many guys read (i.e., Stuff, Maxim, Gear, etc. that are full of misogynist sex advice--except that videos are way more entertaining). In other words, just like everyone the world over can love "Hey Ya!", everyone the world over can love hip-hop misogyny and violence.

3. I think the burden of proof is on 'pop apologists' to show somehow that culture *doesn't* affect behavior. Kids are not a priori "discerning" creatures--to the extent they discern anything, they discern the difference between the morals their parents teach them and the morals they see in culture, and their parents teach morals by objecting to culture. What in the history of the world would lead someone to say that culture doesn't have a huge influence on how you treat others? There is no 'state of nature' that also includes 'treat women fairly,' as thousands of years of oppression of women shows pretty clearly.

anyway, i agree with the first post... i'd add, too, that the worst thing about these discussions is that they often make you choose, in a sense, between misogyny and racism, since the nature of the argument leads towards either broad negative statements about black culture or an endorsement of obviously misogynist art. I guess what I'm trying to say above is: hip-hop misogyny is not a black problem, it's a problem for everyone,

Yep, rap, rock and pop are always sexualized. And as mass produced commercial music their logic is to mass sexualize, mass-sexual stereotype kids as quickly as possible. People were pretty misogynistic 10, 20, 30 years ago too. It was fucked up then just as it is now.

So why is this some kind of counter-argument to stencil's concern? Is there some subtle "our generation grew up OK" thing? Our generation didn't grow up OK. Women got raped 10, 20, 30 years ago. Our generation is involved in a huge push-back against women's freedom.

but the other problem was/remains the frequency of 'bitch' (towards men more than women now?!), 'dawg', 'nigga', 'boy' (all pretty unique to hip-hop in a particular context) and other derogatory terms and their saturation and dilution, which sustain tension rather than remedy it. In Patrick Neate's 'Where You're at' Notes from the Frontline of a Hip Hop Planet' he describes a case where he was told of one NY rapper's material being played to fans but there being complaints of not being able to relate to what he was saying. replaying the same track now with added perfunctory 'niggas' and similar terms scattered throughout and suddenly they were feeling it a great deal more. apparently true, but if so more a fascinating example of people's prejudices re acceptance of messages and media in general than a damning accusation of many hip-hop disciples supposed shallowness in this context. Neate's observations about hip-hop culture/fandom in Japan are probably more disturbing.

Well, scratch point no. 1 to some extent--although I suppose I'd say that hip-hop misogyny is more wide-spread than rock misogyny, despie examples to the contrary like Limp Bizkit. I suspect that large portions of the rock misogyny audience have been co-opted by hip-hop. Of course, I have no proof of any kind....

Blount, I don't think the 'creepiness' HStencil has written about is as obvious in popular rock.

Do I want him listening to the lyrics and skits on the Mannie Fresh cd that some of y'all love (I do like the beats on much of it and that sweaty Keith joke)? I don't think so. While some of that cd is locker room style funny, call me square but I don't even like listening to some of that(or Nelly tip drill or that Snoop song Julianne Shepherd took to task---I she's posted notes from that hiphop feminism conference on her blog). Of course, I also fessed up on a Ghostface thread to liking pre-Schooly D., pre-NWA, pre-2 Live Crew rap when most rappers stuck to just using the Queen's English and using double-entendres rather than spelling out lust in less creative phrasemaking.

I can't stand Bill O'Reilly by the way, Cosby's proving to be a hypocrite, it's a shame how due to Republican government priorities and reliance on property taxes that many schools in poor neighborhoods are underfunded, etc, etc. but that doesn't mean we should let specific rappers off the hook for what they spew.

Kids are gonna get curious about sex, sure. But kids learn how to relate to it and to the people they're trying to get with.

The problems of youth were not gender specific. Some of the most ferocious street gangs of New York City were composed entirely of roughneck, marauding, brawling girls, aged 9 to 16 - 30 to 40 to a pack. The Forty Little Thieves and Lady Locusts were but two examples. Wild and unmanageable, they scampered barefoot about the streets like so many little hell-hags, sleeping in wooden boxes and under stairways, and scratching out a living by their wits in the street trades. Ten years before the Civil War, one New York observer wrote that one could hardly walk down Broadway without meeting a hideous troop of ragged girls from twelve years of age on down, brutalized already beyond redemption, the stamp of childhood forever gone from their faces.

Boys likewise organized themselves into street gangs. Even as early as 1850, New York City was reeling under the force of more than 200 gang wars, some lasting as many as three or four days. Among the gangs were the Daybreak Boys, the Swamp Angels, the Fourth Avenue Tunnel Gang, the Baxter Street Dudes, and the Slaughter Houses; and while all the were not exclusively juvenile in makeup, the young did comprise most of their membership. They fought with brass knuckles, sold protection to shopkeepers, and terrorized neighborhoods in virtually every section of town. In 1846, Boston reported as many as 5,000 vagrant youth in the streets, and called them a "corrupt and festering" fountain flowing into the city's brothels and prisons. By 1860, with a population still under 800,000, New York reported more than 30,000 street urchins. By the 1870s, more than 8,000 youth were confined nationwide in reformatories, while still greater numbers crowded into adult prisons. Edward Bellamy wrote that "swarms of half-brutalized children" roamed the streets of Boston in the 1880s. By the end of the 19th century, juvenile gangs controlled many of the streets of Baltimore, Boston, Newark, and New Orleans. A torrent of youth criminality was sweeping the land.

Scott, are you condoning stuff just because it's gone on historically?

ATTENTION BLACK MEN: It only takes two couplets for your song to become "pretty misogynistic". Just so you know.

*i have to confess i dont really watch tv, so this may be wrong, but, this is the perception i have.

i looked at the lyrics to the outkast song, and i have to admit, i don't know what is being talked about. i didn't see any mysogny, perhaps i am missing something? (i feel a little bit like i am missing something on the whole thread to be honest)

no, i'm just saying that kids have always done and said "anti-social" things and that it's probably no worse now than it was in the past. And probably better in a lot of cases. Kids used to skin cats alive now they pretend they are pimps. If I'm the cat, I say it's an improvement.

This is important, I think, as it's the core of the then/now difference: a greater openness, a willingness - in fact an expectation - to be direct. If you think "fuck you", you should say "fuck you". If you think "I want to fuck you", you should say that too. This is going to sound like the most grand-ma ish thing possible, sorry Scott, but the idea of 'good manners' seems to have shifted hugely since I was a kid, to be replaced with equally complex codes and rituals which I'm sure also police behaviour.

Shift perhaps in the idea of 'respect' from an automatically given social glue (which reinforces discrimination indirectly) to something which has to be individually 'earned' (which reinforces discrimination more directly)

An obvious point: not saying/watching/re-enacting misogynistic things does not mean you are not misogynistic.

This is the video where women do NOTHING except scream like crazed meneads at the band, except for one who gets on stage to be groped? As a video, it's beautiful, and it's funny, but "not really misogynistic"?

Scott-Yea, I guess you have a good point regarding your historical analogy.

but the foul-mouthed lyrics and sexist videos are trite, cliched, and should be considered played out, but alas the music is creative enough to get folks to put up with the rest.

agreed, but this has been the case from day one really, over 20 years ago. but for some reason i still expect some sort of progression in the next 20 years.

Strange thing to say. They look happy so shut up?

First, they're acting. You can't tell if they're enjoying themselves. That's what actors do : fake emotions.

Secondly, they probably *were* enjoying themselves. It's probably more fun than a lot of the crap they get asked to do.

Thirdly, it's not only the women *in* the video who are affected by it. It's all the people watching it, and all the women who are seen by men through the lens that this video helps form. They have a every right to an opinion and comment too.

I think it's a great video. I like it very much. I'm not picking on it. Except as a response to the claim that somehow it's not "really" misogynistic the way other rap videos are.

And we never make any progress on fixing misogeny because

a) it's hardwired into our genes? Or

b) because we always tolerate the minor offenses?

Linkin Park rules though. They're your modern depeche mode.

-- RS_LaRue

This seems important. It's pretty well documented that violence among kids has declined in the last 15 or so years (tracking economic trends).

Strange thing to say. They look happy so shut up?

If by that you mean their ambition should be challenged as it's still just revolving around the higher ambitions of men then I agree in theory. But on the other hand most people want to be seen as sex objects on OCCASION (that they can't fully control when this is because they can't control other people's thoughts is why this practice can be quite...dangerous?). Though your comments make it sound almost as if you believe the women involved in these videos are totally pig ignorant and exploited.

First, they're acting. You can't tell if they're enjoying themselves. That's what actors do : fake emotions.

Secondly, they probably *were* enjoying themselves. It's probably more fun than a lot of the crap they get asked to do.

Thirdly, it's not only the women *in* the video who are affected by it. It's all the people watching it, and all the women who are seen by men through the lens that this video helps form. They have a every right to an opinion and comment too.

All well and good but if 'Hey Ya' and countless other artefacts in our culture are playing on the belief that there are certain times when a lot of women (and men, though usually in the dominant or 'superior' position) want to be objectified sexually without thinking too much about the consequences in any given situation then there's not much you can do about this.

(x-post)

Teen birth rate down, youth less likely to be involved in violent crimes USA

16 Jul 2004

The well-being of America's children has shown strong gains in some areas but has declined in others, according to a yearly report by federal agencies compiling statistics on children. The teen birth rate hit a record low, youth are less likely to commit violent crimes or become the victims of violent crimes, and the death rate has declined for children and young teens.

The prevalence of overweight among children has increased. In addition, there has been a small increase in the percentage of low birth weight infants, the percentage of infants who die before their first birthday, and the percentage of children related to their householders who are living in poverty.

These findings are described in America's Children in Brief: Key National Indicators of Well-Being 2004, the U.S. government's 8th annual monitoring report on the well-being of the Nation's children and youth. The report was compiled by the Federal Interagency Forum on Child and Family Statistics, and presents a comprehensive look at critical areas of child well-being, including economic security, health status, behavior and social environment, and education.

"The adolescent birth rate dropped to a record low in 2002," said Duane Alexander, M.D., Director of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development at the National Institutes of Health. "This is an extremely favorable development, as teen childbearing poses added burdens for both mothers and infants."

Dr. Alexander explained that girls who give birth during their teen years and the infants to which they give birth face a number of problems. Teen mothers are much less likely to finish high school or to graduate from college than are other girls their age. Similarly, infants born to teen mothers are more likely to be of low birth weight, which increases an infant's chances for dying during infancy and for such health problems as blindness, deafness, mental retardation, mental illness, and cerebral palsy.

According to the report, birth rates for adolescents have declined steadily since 1991, reaching a record low in 2002 — 23 births for every 1,000 girls ages 15 to 17, compared to 39 in 1991. Black, non-Hispanic teens showed the greatest decline, from 86 per 1,000 in 1991 to 41 per 1,000 in 2002. The report noted that the drop in adolescent birth rates was a direct result of the declining adolescent pregnancy rates, as evidenced by a decline in live births as well as declines in the rates of induced abortions and miscarriages.

Coverage for the varicella vaccine (chicken pox) reached an all-time high of 81 percent in 2002, and coverage for the Hepatitis B vaccine was at 90 percent in 2002. The percentage of children from 19 to 35 months of age who received coverage for the recommended combined series of four key vaccines was 78 percent in 2002, not statistically different from 77 percent in 2001. Coverage for the vaccine series has ranged from 76 percent to 78 percent, since reaching a high of 79 percent in 1998.

In contrast to these improvements, the prevalence of overweight among U.S. children increased in recent years. During the time period 1988 to 1994, 11 percent of children from ages 6 to 18 were overweight. That figure had increased to 16 percent for the period from 1999 to 2002. From 1976 to 1980, only 6 percent of children were overweight.

"This increase in overweight jeopardizes our children's future, making them vulnerable to chronic conditions such as diabetes and hypertension previously associated more with adults than with children," said Edward J. Sondik, Ph.D., Director of CDC's National Center for Health Statistics. "Overweight is not only a problem for our children but a problem for our Nation, as overweight children too often become overweight adults, with the accompanying increase in health problems."

According to the report, Mexican American boys were at the highest risk, with 27 percent overweight, followed by Black, non-Hispanic girls, at 23 percent overweight.

Among the favorable developments cited in the report was the decline in child mortality. In 2000, there were 18 deaths for every 100,000 children from ages 5 to 14, whereas in 2001 there were 17 deaths for every 100,000 children in this age group.

However, there was a slight increase in the infant mortality rate. In 2002, 7 out of every 1,000 infants died before their first birthday, increasing from a record low of 6.8 per thousand in 2001. The report said that preliminary analyses indicated that most of the increase in deaths occurred among infants less than 28 days old, with most in the first week of life.

One factor that may be contributing to this small increase, Dr. Sondik said, is that improvements in fetal medicine have allowed infants who would otherwise have died before delivery to survive into the early newborn period. Dr. Sondik hopes that additional information, due this fall, will provide a more detailed explanation for the increase.

The rate of low birthweight infants also rose slightly in 2002, to 7.8 percent, up from 7.7 percent in 2001. Low birthweight (about 5.5 lbs) is a risk factor for infant death. The increase is part of a continuing slow, steady rise in low birth weight, beginning at 7 percent in 1990. The rate of low birthweight infants was highest for Black, non-Hispanic infants, at 13.4 percent.

"Growth in multiple births (largely due to increasing use of fertility treatments) partially explains the low birthweight increase, but low birthweight also increased among singleton infants," the report said.

Among the report's economic security indicators, the percentage of children under age 18 who were related to the householder and living in poverty increased from 15.8 percent in 2001 to 16.3 percent in 2002. However, the poverty rate for all people under age 18 — which includes some children who were not related to the householder — showed no statistical change between 2001 (16.3 percent) and 2002 (16.7 percent).

"Although this was the first statistically significant annual increase in the poverty rate for related children since 1991, this increase followed a period of decline from a recent peak of 22 percent in 1993," the report said. "The drop in poverty from 1996 to the recent low point in 2000 was larger than the decline from 1993 to 1996."

The report noted, however, that the 2001 poverty rate for children related to the householder did not change significantly from the rate in 2000.

The poverty rate for children related to the householder also varied among groups. For children living in female householder families with no husband present, 40 percent were living in poverty. This is in comparison to 9 percent of children living in married-couple families.

Children classified as Black and of no other race had a poverty rate of 32 percent and Hispanic children had a poverty rate of 28 percent in 2002, compared to a poverty rate of 9 percent among white non-Hispanic children of no other race. With respect to the behavioral and social environment indicators, American youth were less likely to be victimized in a serious violent crime---murder, rape, robbery, or aggravated assault--- or to commit one. In 2002, there were 11 serious violent crimes per 1,000 youth ages 12 to 17, down from 15 in 2001.

"The reductions in youth violence are part of a longer-term trend which has been occurring over the last 10 years," said Lawrence Greenfeld, the Director of the Bureau of Justice Statistics in the U.S. Department of Justice. The serious violent crime victimization rate against youths fell from a high of 44 crimes per 1,000 youth ages 12 to 17 in 1993, a decline of 74 percent by 2002.

"The dramatic consequences of the decline in violence among youth, both as victims and offenders, are especially powerful when we examine how many victimizations did not take place because of the reduction in serious crime," Mr. Greenfeld said. "Had the rate of violence recorded in 1993 occurred in each year over the decade, by 2002 we would have seen more than 4.2 million additional serious violent victimizations of youth including nearly 10,000 additional murder victims."

Declines in the rates of commission of serious violent crimes by juveniles also continued into 2002. Over the last decade, based upon the self-reports of victims, the serious violent crime-offending rate dropped 78 percent--- from 52 crimes per 1,000 youth (ages 12-17) in 1993 to 11 crimes per 1,000 youth in 2002.

Mr. Greenfeld noted that there were substantial differences in crime commission behavior between children born in the 1970s and those born more recently. Individuals born in 1979 had an arrest rate for murder, rape, robbery, or aggravated assault by age 15 that translated into about 1 arrest for every 122 children born that year. In contrast, he said, those born in 1986, had, by the time they reached age 15, a violent crime arrest rate that was about half that for those born in 1979. This was about 1 arrest for violence for every 222 individuals born that year. In fact, for each birthyear and at each age in their teenage years, individuals born after the latter part of the 1970's have experienced declining arrest rates for violence.

"Part of the research challenge is to try to learn what positive changes affecting children born most recently are associated with the reductions in both victimization and offending," Mr. Greenfeld said.

All of the indicators for regular teen smoking were at their lowest level since the information was first collected, beginning in 1975. In 2003, 5 percent of 8th graders, 9 percent of 10th graders, and 16 percent of 12th graders reported that they had smoked cigarettes in the past 30 days.

The percentage of youth in 2003 who said they had used illicit drugs during the past 30 days did not change significantly from 2002. Among 8th graders, 10 percent had used illicit drugs in the last 30 days, the lowest level since 1993; 20 percent of 10th graders had used illicit drugs in the past 30 days, the lowest level since 1994; and 24 percent of 12th graders had used illicit drugs in the past 30 days, the lowest level since 1995.

The report noted that White and Hispanic secondary school students were more likely to use illicit drugs or to be heavy drinkers than were Black secondary school students.

Some of the report's Education indicators showed changes from previous years, with an increase in the percentage of young children having been read to, an increase in the number of high school graduates completing high-level coursework in English, and a decline in the percentage of young children enrolled in early childhood centers. Since 1982, there has been a marked increase in the percentage of high school graduates taking advanced courses in mathematics, science, English, and a foreign language.

"The data in America's Children suggest the challenges that we face in improving the educational performance of all children, particularly those from disadvantaged families," stated Robert Lerner, Ph.D., Commissioner of the National Center for Education Statistics. "Yet we also see the promise of improvement in such indicators as the increase in parents reading to their children and in students taking more advanced coursework."

Among the report's population and family characteristics, the birth rate for unmarried adolescents from 15 to 19 years of age declined by more than one-fifth since 1994, while the birth rates for unmarried women ages 20 and older have continued to increase.

The report noted that 68 percent of children under age 18 lived with two married parents, down from 77 percent in 1980. The percentage of children living with two married parents has remained stable since 1995, the end of a long-term downward trend. The report stated that 32 percent of children do not live with two married parents. In 2003, 23 percent of children lived with only their mothers, 5 percent lived with only their fathers, and 4 percent lived with neither of their parents.

"Family structure is associated with the economic, parental, and community resources available to children, as well as their overall well-being," the report said. "On average, living with two parents who are married to each other is associated with more favorable outcomes for children both through, and independent of, the higher income that characterizes these families."

The percentage of children living with at least one foreign-born parent rose from 15 percent in 1994 to 20 percent in 2003. The report noted that children with foreign-born parents may need additional resources at school and at home as a result of language and cultural barriers confronting both the children and their parents.

The report also showed that the number of children in the United States has increased, from 72.6 million in 2001 to 72.9 million in 2002. Children comprised 25 percent of the U.S. population, down from a peak of 36 percent in 1964. The report said children are projected to make up 24 percent of the U.S. population by 2020.

Slight changes in the racial and ethnic composition of the Nation's children were also seen from 2001 to 2002. The percentage of Hispanic children (of any race) increased, from 17.6 percent in 2001 to 18 percent in 2002. The following statistics refer to single race populations: The percentage of Asian children increased, from 3.7 percent to 3.8 percent, while the percentage of White, non-Hispanic children decreased, from 60.7 percent to 60.1 percent.

The percentage of Black children (15.6) did not change, nor did the percentages of Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islanders (0.2), American Indian or Alaska Native (1.2), or children of two or more races (2.6).

This year's America's Children in Brief represents a format change from the full length America's Children report issued in previous years. To make better use of its resources, the Forum will alternate publishing the Brief with the full report. Thus, the Forum will publish the full report again in 2005, and return to the Brief format in 2006. The Forum's Web site at http://childstats.gov contains detailed statistical information accompanying the report. As in previous years, not all statistics are collected on an annual basis and therefore, some data in the Brief may be unchanged from last year's report.

Members of the public may access the report at http://childstats.gov. While supplies last, members of the public also may obtain printed copies from the Health Resources and Services Administration, Information Center, 2070 Chain Bridge Road, Suite 450, Vienna, VA 22182, by calling 1-888-Ask-HRSA (1-888-275-4722), or by e-mailing ask@hrsa.gov.

Telephone availability instructions: To ask a question during the call, press *1 on your touchtone phone, and to withdraw your question press *2. You will hear a tone to indicate your question is pending. A rebroadcast will be available for 24 hours after the availability. To listen to the rebroadcast, dial 1-800-475-6701, Access code: 738377.

B-ROLL FEEDS:
VIA SATELLITE, C-BAND FEED:

Thursday, July 15th 1-1:15 PM ETIA 5Transp. 23DL 4160**IA 5 was formerly Telstar 5**

Friday, July 16th10:30-10:45 AM ETIA 6Transp. 15DL 4000**IA 6 was formerly Telstar 6**

Friday, July 16th1-1:15 PM ETIA 6Transp. 15DL 4000**IA 6 was formerly Telstar 6**

For feed information, contact Dan Conboy, 800-920-6397

Contact: Bob Bock or Marianne Glass Miller
bockr@mail.nih.gov
301-496-5133
NIH/National Institute of Child Health and Human Development

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=10836#

Not entirely related perhaps but I recall somebody somewhere on here posted recently that his work with urban gay kids in NYC showed him that concepts of, for lack of a better word, 'camp' didn't resonate with them at all. I thought that an interesting development, and I wish I could remember where it was posted, and how widespread that might be.

Anyway, relistening to a lot of Associates stuff yesterday showed both in terms of personae and in musical approach -- just the sheer ridiculous amount of detail! -- that some things seem to be lost a bit.

Er, what about Chuck Berry and Elvis?

Er, what about Chuck Berry and Elvis?

er, my point exactly.

Scott, yea those happy kids in DC and Baltimore and various other cities are shooting each other at lower rates than a few years ago so we should be happy. Literacy rates may suck in the cities, but hey, they're higher than they were in the 1800s.

I dunno. If the argument against something is that it's "easily dismissable" that seems kind of circular. I'm not going to accept it because I'm not going to accept it?

OTOH you may be saying "I'm not going to accept it because I bet *other people* aren't going to accept it." Which seems like the conservative impulse reduced to it's pure essence.

blount : "at the same time it is depressing at how persistent it is,"

Otm. Of course, it's boring to go on and on about this stuff. But what's alternative? After the quick burst of pleasure from putting down the feminazi wears off, where are you? Accepting it's an inevitable given of human nature and experience. Fuck that! I'd rather be boring every now and then than just give up.

scott : "it's like i said. nobody goes outside anymore. thus, nobody gets hurt."

Does anyone think is progress? We're all too scared and unfit to go on the streets so we meet each other less, therefore less crime?

$V£N : "Though your comments make it sound almost as if you believe the women involved in these videos are totally pig ignorant and exploited"

C'mon, you must recognise this is a standard line from the reactionary brigade. "What? You think women's status in society needs to be addressed from a political perspective? Why, you must really, deep down, be the sort of patronizing bastard who thinks WOMEN CAN'T STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES.".

But seriously, what did I say that hinted I thought women were "pig ignorant"? In fact I'm saying almost exactly what you are. "that they can't fully control when this is because they can't control other people's thoughts is why this practice can be quite...dangerous?"

Yep. Quite dangerous. And serious enough to at least think about. I'm not advocating policies at this point. Just that we recognise.

Actually, I can read your comment in another way "pig ignorant and exploited" might mean that you think anyone who's "exploited" is by definition "pig ignorant" (because why else would they let that happen to themselves.) I totally disagree with this idea that only stupid people get exploited and that it's their fault, But this post is getting kind of long. If you want to argue about that further let's do it somewhere else.

Lethal Dizzle : "Out of curiosity, where exactly is this thread going? What are we advocating as the "answer"? There are things in culture that are appropriate for adults, and this is the way its always been. Its disturbing when kids find porn, its disturbing when kids watch violent movies."

I don't think all porn is appropriate for adults. And I'm not sure so many violent movies are, either. "This is the way it's always been" is not justification. So what if it's always been like that?

What would I like to see? Well, ILM is just people talking. But some people here on ILM are musicians. Some make or will get to make videos. How 'bout if the musicians on this board felt they'd rather not make another tired misogenistic video when the record-label or art director suggests it. That would make me feel this was all worthwhile. Can't hurt to ask.

I wouldn't call "Queer Eye"'s success so much a fascination with queer culture as a fascination with minstrels. It seems to me that those five are being laughed at rather than laughed with (that they're laughing their way to the bank is irrelevant).

An obvious point: not saying/watching/re-enacting misogynistic things does not mean you are not misogynistic.

I think that is very OTM. And I can't help but wonder how many clucking hens in this thread were in that "Wait/Whisper In Your Ear" appreciation thread falling all over themselves with the "awesomeness" of that song. It's rich to be dismissive and head-shaking over "kids nowadays" and yet be unashamed lovers of the most hardcore of the misogynistic products. Or is it okay cause you're only loving it from the comfort of your home on your computers and no one can see you watching "Uncut?"

x-post: I always thought the love of "Queer Eye" was the 21st century "Of course I don't hate ____, I watch ___!"

As an aside: Every year I go to the Jersey shore I see more and more teenage girls dressing like hookers, and it saddens and scares the shit out of me. I'm all for women who want to strut their stuff, who love their bodies, love getting trashy and nasty, etc. But -- forgive the dramatics -- I look into the eyes of these girls and they don't know whether they're coming or going. It's something that I know they have to go through (we all did), but I want to grab them by their caked eyelashes and ask them, well, "what the fuck?!" basically. I wonder what they'd say. They'd probably laugh in my face and make fun of me.... exactly what the girls did to me when I was their age, come to think of it.

Maybe not androgynous, but I do think that he's the site of several different, and potentially contradictory, gender roles: Gilbert Rodman's Elvis After Elvis speaks of "Elvis the macho, hip-swivelling rebel vs. Elvis the baby-faced mama's boy."

that's why I said 'almost'.

what did I say that hinted I thought women were "pig ignorant"?

well we were talking about the women in the 'Hey Ya' video and similar videos I thought, not women in general. The ignorance is all relative though (how smart are the men in the videos? wearing more clothes != smarter after all).

FWIW, Scott, I caught the jist of yer posts. But yeah, after a certain point I felt like I always needed to include the icons too.

Did Momus ever make any videos?

i dunno which two couplets you're on about but the whole song is a paen (ugh sp?) to love-'em-leave-'em misogyny (which of course makes it no exception to anything written/performed by any other type of man - hell even some women!)

this thread hasn't been about, nor was intended to be about, proposing "solutions" (yeesh, creepy). i sure as hell don't have any answers (as if that weren't obvious).

scott seward's been pwning, but his "kids don't go outside" theory don't work for 1. kids who take public transportation to/from school (if they go to school that is) a la nyc and 2. kids who are too poor to own a ps2 and 3. kids who live with ma (usually without a pa) in small nyc apartments.

xpost - massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the nation, blount.

No, you didn't read:

it's just those darn cities where kids come into contact with adults too often. society has been trying to kill those cities for years and they just won't go away.

Also, am I crazy to imagine this as the way these discussions usually go (ps obviously being very reductive of what people in this thread are actually saying):

A: Why is the hip-hop so sexist and harmful to children?
B: Why do people only bring up hip-hop? Society as a whole is sexist!
A: That doesn't mean you get to excuse sexism within hip-hop

And I think these people are all right.

yeah, that a/b/a is about right.

I didn't say "is there sexism in 'Wait'," I asked what's wrong with me listening to "Wait."

For me it's just that lame-o misogynist wait-till-you-see-my-dick hip-hop sucks. And it distresses me to see zillions of kids lapping it up as though it's some kind of revelatory art that means something. Sure, on the scale of our world's many problems, it's not a big deal, but on the scale of pop music, it's pretty lame that mainstream hip-hop is turning into a race for the bottom like this. The same way that everyone now lives in a world dominated by dumb, stupid crap like the Krispy Kreme doughnut drink or nasty worthless strip malls. Add to that pile of depravity an endless stream of ho bitch dick bitch etc., it's like--was the human race put on earth for this?

That's all.

Um, no it isn't! WTF.

i'm not just talking about the "two couplets" which i assume you're referring to:

Don't want to meet your daddy (Oh oh!)
Just want you in my Caddy (Oh oh! Oh oh!)
Don't want to meet your momma (Oh oh!)
Just want to make you come-a (Oh oh!)

the first two verses are more complex to just say they're solely misogynistic, as there's a wistful "why can't we just be in love" sentimentality and an acknowledgment of the narrator's faults (tho couched later in "i'm just being honest" as if that makes it all right) as well, but it's definitely there:

My baby don't mess around
Because she loves me so
And this I know fa sho (Uh!)
But does she really wanna
But can't stand to see me walk out the do'
Don't try to fight the feeling
'Cause the thought alone
Is killing me right now (Uh!)
Thank God for Mom and Dad
For sticking two together
'Cause we don't know how

You think you've got it
Oh, you think you've got it
But got it just don't get it
Til theres's nothing at all (Ah!)
We get together
Oh, we get together
But separate's always better
When there's feelings involved (Oh!)
If what they say is 'nothing is forever,'
Then what makes
Then what makes
Then what makes
Then what makes
Then what makes (What makes? What makes?)
Love the exception?
So why oh, why oh
Why oh, why oh, why oh
Are we so in denial
When we know we're not happy here?

for starters, "my baby don't mess around" but it's okay for me, the man, to sounds pretty misogynistic to me.

"But does she really wanna
But can't stand to see me walk out the do'" = if my woman cheats, i'm gone, but she has to deal with my peccadilloes (hello that's a whole lot of the lyrical basis of a lot of hiphop and r&b).

i dunno, just my interpretation. but feel free to mold it into an "anti-black male" agenda if you like, i guess.

If you're clucking about the kids/culture in crisis yet at the same time gleefully eating it up what you're bashing them for, that's what wrong with it. Being a passive pundit in this instance doesn't negate being a participant.

xpost Krispy Kreme Drink

tom the last 2/3rds of the song is basically lyrical come-ons/passes! which is fine and all, actually i think that + first 1/3rd makes it far more interesting than, say, l'il jon screaming.

Candicissima, I'm not clucking!

SS OTM again.

yeah miccio, that interpretation only bolsters my argument. "women are weak and co-dependent, i'm a man who has faults but at least i'm honest about them."

xpost - nope, blount. if somebody said "lend me some sugar, i am your neighbor" to me i'd find it charming, probably.

xxpost - yeah, god forbid someone have a different interpretation/opinion than you, dizzle.

the diff between most middle class white kids and working class black kids is, despite class (obv) is that white kids have more buffers to counterpoint to their digestion of media imagery/representation and they have more varied representation in the general media than black kids do these days.

huh? I'm just stating my opinion, didn't say you have to agree!

(smiley)

blount yeah i dunno. it's not an accusation of "hey ya" btw, i like that song a lot (surprise! but then again don't only "racists" like jim dero like it too?), can relate a lot to the ambiguities in it.

huh??!

Calling "Hey Ya" misogynystic in any meaningful way seems like a pretty big stretch to me.

there ain't any "point" to any ilm thread. that's a non-starter.

blount, do you hate vernacular?

xpost - oh sheesh miccio.

Neither is reading a gigantic amount of baggage drug in from other songs on the album into "Hey Ya!" Your entire argument boils down to "Andre 3000 is saying this and he is misogynistic, ergo this song is misogynistic." Your making tenuous connections that are completely at odds with the narrative in the song and completely misreading the lyrics in order to make your point.

Okay...my pet peeve here: what's the big deal about that? Why does it always have to be some "whoa...black artists listen to 'white people' music?! I'm totally shocked!" They listened to the radio and watched videos and read magazine growing up like everyone else (and besides that, it's all marketing. They know you think it's cool). They might even, you know, have white friends that turned them onto it or they discovered it for themselves in a record shop. It shouldn't really be that surprising. Plus lot of us have/had cable from the start and watched other things besides "Yo! MTV Raps." Like I used to have a soft spot for country music because I used to catch video snippets on the old preview channel when CMT was ghettoized in NYC. But OTOH, if Britney Spears said he was a Nona Hendryx fan, you could knock me over with a feather.

MERRIAM WEBSTER HATE ME

Main Entry: 1ver·nac·u·lar
Pronunciation: v&(r)-'na-ky&-l&r
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin vernaculus native, from verna slave born in the master's house, native
1 a : using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather than a literary, cultured, or foreign language b : of, relating to, or being a nonstandard language or dialect of a place, region, or country c : of, relating to, or being the normal spoken form of a language
2 : applied to a plant or animal in the common native speech as distinguished from the Latin nomenclature of scientific classification
3 : of, relating to, or characteristic of a period, place, or group; especially : of, relating to, or being the common building style of a period or place

Main Entry: Black English
Function: noun
: a nonstandard variety of English spoken by some American blacks -- called also Black English vernacular

Main Entry: Ebon·ics
Pronunciation: E-'bä-niks, i-, e-
Function: noun plural but singular in construction
Etymology: blend of ebony and phonics

Main Entry: child
Pronunciation: 'chI(&)ld
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural chil·dren /'chil-dr&n, -d&rn/
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cild; akin to Gothic kilthei womb, and perhaps to Sanskrit jathara belly
1 a : an unborn or recently born person b dialect : a female infant
2 a : a young person especially between infancy and youth b : a childlike or childish person c : a person not yet of age
3 usually childe /'chI(&)ld/ archaic : a youth of noble birth
4 a : a son or daughter of human parents b : DESCENDANT
5 : one strongly influenced by another or by a place or state of affairs
6 : PRODUCT, RESULT
- child·less /'chI(&)l(d)-l&s/ adjective
- child·less·ness noun
- with child : PREGNANT

unrelated wtf: "an unborn or recently born person"????!!!?

Kids never want to be protected until they get scared. You are often scared by that you are unfamiliar with. If you are more familiar, even by proxy, with something like sex or drugs or thuggish behavior, you are more likely to engage in it. This is what I see to be the main problem with overexposure to "bad influences". In my mind, there are no "bad influences" - there are simply misunderstood influences that are not explained or processed adequately by the receptor. Kids are sponges, not filters. They do not discern, they consume. Its up to adults to help them discern. So, step up mom and dad. Stop using the television/PS2 as a babysitter.

Touche :-) Probably directed by David Hamilton.

Yep. I cannot lie. Momus is one of my favourite artists. And he's a misogynistic bastard at times. I still listen to (and love) "Pornography" even though I violently disagree with the sentiment. None of us are paragons of virtue. :-)

deej. : "I don't want to sound like crazy misogyny man here but what's wrong with me listening to the Ying Yang Twins?"

I think the question is rather like, "what's wrong with me chucking my coke-can in the river". It's why it's so hard to argue about this stuff. What's wrong with chucking your coke-can in the river is pretty much nothing if only you and a couple of other people do it. But when it becomes the standard daily behavior for millions, then there's a problem. Like toxins, a few get processed by your body without you noticing them. But too high a concentration and you get sick.

Same with putting women on pedestals, seeing them as vehicles for our sexual desires rather than people in their own right. We all do it. We all want to be treated as sex-objects sometimes. And in small doses there's no problem. It's only in aggrogate, when it becomes noticable as a systematic trend that women are *always* portrayed this way, that they are always judged on how well they match men's expectations, that they regularly feel desperate to fit the patterns in the media, etc. etc. that we start to see how sick it is.

It's really hard to get this, because our Kantian intuition is that things are either wrong or right, regardless of who's doing them or in what quantity. But there's a whole class of things that are only harmful when done in mass. And because they become harmful, I'd say they're also wrong. But because we only see them done in small doses, with little or no immediete effect, we don't notice that.

Hello! OTM there.

xpost -- And Phil is too!

perhaps, dan. i wasn't thinking of "hey ya" as misogynistic-as-perjorative so much (at least nowhere near the way "tip drill" is, to me), more like misogynistic-as-this-is-the-condition-of-society, if that makes any sense. i don't think my connections are all that tenuous or much of a misread, but i guess i will defer to you on that. it seems kinda odd to me that on ile/ilm everyone's all derrida big-upping, "it's all about the reader's/listener's response, maaaan" but if there's a response we don't happen to like, then out the window with it. that's not an accusation btw, i am the same way, obv.

xpost - frank black, solo or group, could never be interesting! again build new strawman pls.

i dig the FATBOYS' music, tho.

Main Entry: tongue-in-cheek
Function: adjective
: characterized by insincerity, irony, or whimsical exaggeration

xpost blount pls you have yet to quote me and actually get what i'm saying!

Should I append that "OTM minus that Momus stuff?" Someone's got their devil's advocate game working over time!

-- j blount (jamesbloun...), April 25th, 2005. (papa la bas) (later)

stence - yes thank you i knew what the word means. it's how i was able to read your title to this thread and not think you were talking about a new milkshake from krispy kreme. and???

-- j blount (jamesbloun...), April 25th, 2005. (papa la bas) (later)

ANSWERED FAR UPTHREAD

ok so what's the reason you left rock out then?
-- j blount

ANSWERED FAR UPTHREAD BUT WILLFUL BLOUNT BLINDNESS STRIKES AGAIN

josh you can't remember limp bizkit or the strokes?
-- j blount

not directed towards me so hence don't care

so it is a red state vs. blue state thing then?
-- j blount

SUB-BROOKSIAN AT BEST

i dunno i am not so couched in a dworkian analysis of pop music (tho i'd be sort of interested in reading one).

stence - yes thank you i knew what the word means. it's how i was able to read your title to this thread and not think you were talking about a new milkshake from krispy kreme. and???

and...that doesn't really seem like a question!

show me where you don't completely willfully misinterpret what i say in order to score points on ilm, blount! i never claimed that rock isn't misogynist, more that it's a different kind of misogyny (perhaps no less bad). and yes, kids still buy rock records and black sabbath t-shirts.

When have I ever been like this? Perhaps you could deal with me as me and not as if I was Tim Finney?

To a degree, I disagree with this. Kids are taught how to discern; when I was a kid I made decisions based on my best interests, and sometimes I made stupid mistakes like stealing candy bars or fighting or whatever but I've done stupid things as an adult now too. That said, YES parents need to do a) b) c) for a kid to learn to discern, but I cant help but feel like a lot of the wariness towards kids embracing hip-hop music/style/dance/culture has to do with a lack of identification, people forgetting what it was like to be a kid.

(x-post)

uh you seemed to be saying, by your usage, that i wasn't allowed to use the word. but hey, whatevers.

xpost - dan i wasn't saying you specifically! don't be so defensive. or do, i guess.

xxpost - blount because i haven't seen gutter punx/goth kidz/skater bois/etc. be complete dicks to girls lately! that's all! take one chip off shoulder, mr. defender-of-hiphop!

I reacting to your post exactly how it was written. I'm challenging that there has to be a leap of imagination involved. Let's say the Ying Yang Twins "fessed up" to being huge...David Bowie fans. So what? Millions of other people like him too. Why does there have to be a confessional aspect to it at all? Just because you might not think they're wearing their fandom on their sleeve?

i think i've clarified plenty, blount, but if you wanna ask me specific questions instead of just RE-PETE, go ahead by all means.

it suddenly became a decent business opportunity for both parties. did it end up more popular than 'The Best Of Both Worlds' tho I wonder.

VERY TRUE. Everyone who thinks grime is going to "break" in America is either a hopeless dreamer or just secretely resents American hip hop.

It was such a dog-bites-man story that I almost skipped right by: Billionaire Bashes Poor Blacks. The only thing that gave this particular story a little piquancy is that the billionaire doing the bashing is black himself. Bill Cosby has been attacking the poor of his race, and especially the youthful poor, for a range of sins, including using bad words, "stealing poundcake," "giggling" and failing to give their children normal names like "Bill." "The lower-economic people," Cosby announced, "are not holding up their end in this deal."

They let me down, too, sometimes — like that girl at Wendy's who gave me sweet iced tea when I had clearly specified unsweetened. She looked a little tired, but, as Cos might point out: How hard can it be to hold a job, go to high school and care for younger siblings in all your spare moments while your parents are at work?

But it's just so 1985 to beat up on the black poor. During the buildup to welfare "reform" in 1996, the comfortable denizens of think spas like the Heritage Foundation routinely excoriated poor black women for being lazy, promiscuous, government-dependent baby machines, not to mention overweight (that poundcake again). As for poor black youth, they were targeted in the 90's as a generation of "superpredators," gang-bangers and thugs.

It's time to start picking on a more up-to-date pariah group for the 21st century, and I'd like to nominate the elderly whites. Filial restraint has so far kept the would-be Social Security privatizers on the right from going after them, but the grounds for doing so are clear. For one thing, there's a startling new wave of "grandpa bandits" terrorizing rural banks. And occasionally some old duffer works himself into a frenzy listening to Cole Porter tunes and drives straight into a crowd of younger folks.

The law-abiding old whites are no prize either. Overwhelmingly, they choose indolence over employment — lounging on park benches, playing canasta — when we all know there are plenty of people-greeter jobs out there. Since it's government money that allows them to live in this degenerate state, we can expect the Heritage Foundation to reveal any day now that some seniors are cashing in their Social Security checks for vodka and Viagra. Just as welfare was said to "cause poverty," the experts may soon announce that Medicare causes baldness and that Social Security is a risk factor for osteoporosis: the correlations are undeniable.

And the menace posed by the elderly can only get worse, as ever more of them sink into debt. What's eating up their nest eggs? In many cases, drugs. How long before the streets are ruled by geezer gangs mugging us to support their insulin and beta-blocker habits?

All right, before the AARP issues a fatwa against me, could we please acknowledge that the demonization of welfare recipients wasn't based on reality either? Contrary to the stereotype, welfare moms in 1996 averaged two children per family, not six, and in surveys always expressed a desire to work, should child care become available. Incidentally, only a minority of them were African-American.

As for the black youth who so exercise Cosby, their pregnancy rates aren't "soaring," as he reportedly claimed; in fact, they're lower than they've been in decades. Ditto with crime rates. And if Cosby's worried about poor grammar and so forth, why isn't he ranting about the Bush 2005 budget, which would end a slew of programs for dropout prevention, recreation and school counseling?

Or, if he's looking for tantrum fodder, what about the fact that a black baby has a 40 percent chance of being born into poverty? You can blame adults for their poverty — if you're mean-spirited enough — but you cannot blame babies, and that's, in effect, what we're talking about here.

As the sociologist Michael Males, who monitors youth-bashing outbreaks, told me: "Younger black America today is struggling admirably against massive disinvestments in schools, terrible unemployment, harsh policing and degrading prejudices, and they're succeeding amazingly well. They deserve respect, not grown-up tantrums."

But it must be fun to beat up on people too young and too poor to fight back, or the elderly rich wouldn't do it. Cranky old rich people: now there's a demographic group that qualifies as a genuine Menace 2 Society.

I need to read further before getting anxious and posting!

Again, correct, especially on the female side of things. I think they feel the need to respond to assholes or else they're prudes in their TV minds. It's worse in the burbs, btw

(i actually watch a lotta sportz tho)

Blount, can you please name the current popular rock lyrical equivalent of those sexist Snoop, Lil' Jon, Yin Yang Twins, and Mannie Fresh songs that have been mentioned above. I understand trying to be fair and balanced, so why don't you please help us out here.

And nobody's advocating that folks should be barred from listening to the above, I'm just bemoaning the quality of the lyrics and the fact that I don't want my 11-year-old kid to listen to such lyrics (although I feel I've taught him enough values that he'd realize what is wrong with the sentiments displayed).

NEW YORK — The driving force behind today's rap music is not the power of the word but the promise of a payoff, says one of the foremost rap artists of his time.

"There is a pirating of our culture. Record companies are saying, 'We can't sell songs that don't play into the role of gangsters.' Intelligence is being downplayed," said Public Enemy frontman Chuck D. at the First Amendment Center May 18 during a taping of the weekly television show "Speaking Freely."

Chuck D. believes rap artists today are being forced just to sell an image by the companies who control them. He cited Tupac Shakur as an example of a "brilliant artist" who played at being a thug and ultimately died as a result of that image. The gangsta rapper was shot and killed by unknown assailants in 1996 on his way to a charity event in Las Vegas.

"I'm really angry about his death," Chuck D. said. "Record companies are selling black existence that is unbalanced."

The rap star, who rose to prominence with political hip-hop that promoted the black consciousness, pointed out that Viacom, one of the largest distributors of rap videos and music, is controlled by a few white men.

"For the companies, it's about marketing of this music," he said.

And how does this play to the listeners?

"Young people are having a hard time with what's reality and what's fantasy these days," he said. "It's dangerous to the [black] community.

"It is a different time in rap than when Public Enemy started," he added. "Today, in 2001, we have a mass of media and information and that causes overflow in the minds of young people."

The auditorium for the taping was packed with fans and friends of the popular artist, who today gives lectures around the country on racism, music and black culture and also helps run a music Web site called www.rapstation.com. There were more than a hundred people present, and the discussion continued for two hours after the taping ended.

Public Enemy, which Chuck D. co-founded, debuted on Long Island in 1987 and was known for forcing the issues of racism, poverty and class anger to the forefront while bringing hip-hop culture into the mainstream. Chuck D., whose real name is Carlton Riderhouse, and Flavor Flav, born William Drayton, released hits like "Bring in the Noise" in 1987 and "Fight the Power" in 1989.

"We created discussion," he said. "It wasn't to create controversy for sale's sake, but rather it was my obligation to use the medium for discussion. [Artists] need to look out for the community and the kids."

Then he added, "Course now is a different time."

Today's gangsta rap is a "different breed," he said, citing lyrics and voices that concentrate only on the negative aspects of street life.

The artist advised parents to listen to their kids' music. "Today's parents have got to have an awareness of what their kids are listening to," he said.

He also addressed the dangers of music that sells street culture through a "gangsta" image of guys with guns, women and drugs.

"I tell people when they are seeing these videos, they aren't real. When the director yells cut, the [hot] cars go back to their owners, and the girls go home. It's not real," he said.

The portrayal of women in particular bothers him, Chuck D. said, and again he blames the marketing.

"[Hip-hop diva] Eve does many different things on albums, but the record companies choose what is released. Hip-hop artists should look to [superstar and Grammy winner] Lauryn Hill as an example," he said.

But above all, Chuck D. said, Don't Believe the Hype. It's a phrase he coined, but now he urged his audience: Don't just not believe it, but get out there and question it.

"We've got to fight for better education and teach respect for fellow human beings and your planet," he said. "We've got to bring dialogue to the table and deal with situations" like racism, sexism and classism.

"[These days] nobody's discussing the grown-up topics; they are faking and fronting," he added. "And the companies that sign these young artists have a responsibility to develop them."

not sure what you mean. anyway i'm not sure if the white rock crit claim is as important to these artists. when i saw de la they went "i like tupac/ do you like tupac?" and they weren't kidding (nor should they have been).

how come there's no real impact, they just skip off the surface like a pebble on a pond?

i dunno but you seem to equate anything that's not top 10 with having no impact. look at all the backpackers spawned in the wake of your aforementioned artists! the sheer number of them alone suggests that impact can be more than just sales (but yeah i know, old white rock crit vu canard).

at first i thought it was maybe becuz these guys don't sustain careers - arrested development and digable planets bombed with second albums and then broke up, fugees broke up, wyclef and lauryn release classic debuts and then fall off (too soon to tell with kanye obv) - but then i remember outkast, the biggest selling of these acts, the most played on hip-hop radio, the most media exposed black hip-hop act of this century, huge success. and yet nothing's changed. why?

well in terms of the larger society, music alone ain't gonna get it done (if there's a "done" to "get"). david crosby didn't get elected prezident neither.

xpost - prove it blount! i bet el-p likes lotsa that stuff.

Emo to thread! Quoth jessica hopper:

"And then something broke - and it wasn't Bob Nanna's or Mr. Dashboard's sensitive hearts. Records by a legion of done-wrong boys lined the record store shelves. Every record was a concept album about a breakup, damning the girl on the other side. Emo's contentious monologue - it's balled fist Peter Pan mash-note dilemmas - it's album length letters from pussy-jail - it's cathedral building in ode to man-pain and Robert-Bly-isms - it's woman-induced misery has gone from being descriptive to being prescriptive. Emo was just another forum where women were locked in a stasis outside observation, observing ourselves through the eyes of others. The prevalence of these bands, the omnipresence of emo's sweeping sound and it's growing stronghold in the media and on the Billboard chart codified emo as A SOUND, where previously there had been diversity.
Girls in emo songs today do not have names. We are not identified. Our lives, our struggles, our day-to-day-to-day do not exist, we do not get colored in. We leave brusies on boy-hearts, but make no other mark. Our existences, our actions are portrayed SOLELY through the the detailing of neurotic self-enganglements of the boy singer - our region of personal power, simply, is our breadth of impact on his romantic life." (it continues for a bit there)

Now I did, you wonder why
Why not before, you never tried
Gone for good, and this is it

why?

Through the back door or front door, it ends up inside either way. And not many people bother watching the back door.

x-post

xpost - there you go again. i hate most backpack hiphop, blount. and uh the premise of this thread is about the larger society since it's about actions in that society and how they may or may not be influenced by art!

xpost: The proper translation for Shakey's argument seems to be "It's okay when the white acts do it because I understand then."

I was responding to this. I stand by the idea that white boy rock music is just as "harmful" as hip-hop.

blount's being unnecessarily reductionist - I think kids should be able to listen to whatever the fuck they want, but they should be able/encouraged to engage with it intelligently, not just respond to it like their being programmed.

x-x-x-post

As for "Figured You Out" the line "You're like my favorite damn disease" would be totally disgusting if the "like" was omitted. Makes it more touching, like a confused stoner.

i dunno about "harmful" or degrees of it but anecdotally i have yet to see emo boys yell dashboard lyrics at girls on the train.

I'm not saying this is "as bad" as Snoop etc, it's two different kinds of badness united merely by the fact that you really shouldn't go to popular music for healthy images of gender relations.

As I understand it though (I heard her summarize it at EMP but I've never read it), Hopper's paper was as much about the socialisation on the 'scene' as it is the content of the music.

this is x-posted to death now.

I agree completely.

(xxx-post).

Now that's fucking OTM....expand it to "heathy images of anything" though.

I must say, I was walking my dog once last summer and some elementary school kids were having a b-day party in my neighborhood and singing along to "Magic Stick"...this was a lil' disturbing.

As hip-hop has grown, the major mainstream has been set up not to sustain a long lasting anything right now. The culture is one of quick bites, maximum dollar, lowest common denominator -- so anyone who isn't doing that will get left by the wayside as everyone moves on. They fall off and their new product gets vetoed as wack, like Lauryn Hill who I remember got more play/covers at the time for being a beautiful woman than praised for her totally groundbreaking lyrics. Or they embrace the marketplace, like Kanye -- Jesus chains by Jacob the Jeweler (or whoever...I don't remember), I mean WTF?! It's sell or die because if it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.

Give Kanye credit for at least acting (emphasis on 'acting') conflicted. He knows the game, he plays it, but he's earned enough cred to bitch about it.

Based upon Postman's description of childhood and the reason for its being, our society may be in jeopardy of losing this long-standing concept. Postman says that childhood came into existence about the time of the printing press; it arose out of a need to become a literate society in which adults controlled the information that children could access. Children had to learn to read so they could gain this information. Thus, schools were necessary. Furthermore, the adults' control of the information established a gap between adulthood and childhood. Adults could provide information to children when they deemed it was appropriate to do so. With the growth of electonic media and the move into the information age, adults have somewhat lost their control over the information; consequently, the gap between adulthood and childhood has been narrowed. Children are exposed to those"adult" ideas and thoughts sooner now because of their access to the information, i.e. consider today's television programs as just one example. Postman even contends that adults are more "child-like" in some ways; he give examples of the lack of distinction between clothing and language for adults and children. Perhaps a bit unfairly, Postman blames many of the less than positive changes in today's society on the media. However, this is a great read and provides a lot of "food for thought." The historical perspective that Postman provides on the "invention" of childhood is fascinating. His tracing of the developments growing out of the information age are logical and make a lot of sense. While he raises our concerns, Postman offers no real solutions to the problems.

David, I don't think Jessica's quoting any profanity-filled, beat my ho songs that have been on cds that have sold as many copies as any by the artists above. Not that more subtle sexism that reaches less people shouldn't be taken to task by Jessica or others, but I don't see how it is equivalent.

I'm not trying to restrict others just my own kid. I don't like backpack hiphop either as I've noted.

Wind you up and make you crawl to me
Tie you up until you call to me

A) This was not occurring during school hours;
B) We were discussing the ramifications of the song, not revelling in it nor emulating it;
C) There was no one else around us and we were having a private conversation between A and B and perhaps he would like to C his way out of it?

He spluttered that the language was inappropriate for school grounds and stalked off. My friend and I laughed at him and continued talking about how crazed the song was.

I'm not trying to restrict others just my own kid. I don't like backpack hiphop either as I've noted.

OK first of all I'm not telling you how to raise your kids! I think its entirely appropriate that you wouldn't want him to hear profanity-laced music. And I don't think this about equivalency either. First off, the assumption that most rap is "beat your ho" music is wrong. Just flat out. There is a lot of questionable misogyny in rap but very little of it actually encourages abuse, and lots of it is about as harmful as emo + more swearing (i.e. T.I.'s "Chillin with my Bitch," which is misogynistic no matter how much T.I. wants "bitch" to be a term of endearment; that said, like many rap songs, its intended as a love song of sorts.) (That Snoop song is a notable exception).

"Between 1950 and 1979 the rate of serious crime committed by those younger than fiften has increased one hundred and ten times, or eleven thousand percent."

After that, "U Can't Touch This" went down a treat.

So gimme all your money
give me all your gold
let's go back to Zuma Beach
I'll give you half - of everything I own

So it's gone from 'emo boys are powerless' to 'emo boys are being held under by these bitches' - which is feeding in to the same adolescent machismo/narcissism and low-grade misogyny as "grind his dick it's YOURS BITCH." There's also an argument that you'll find more conflicted feelings about gender in hip-hop than rock. Mike Jones has a few of those 'damned hoes just want my money' songs, but the entire album is dedicated to his grandma.

Her argument works just as well in terms of mainstream alt-rock (as Miccio has shown w/ those fucking Nickelback lyrics, also Puddle of Mudd has a couple of doozies I believe) and the complete elimination of the female voice (compared to alt-grunge radio growing up when I could hear the Breeders, Courtney Love, Kim Gordon on occasion, Elastica, Veruca Salt, etc.) is a major reason I listen to more hip-hop radio. Whether it's Missy or Ciara or Eve or whomever, chances are I'm going to hear far more of the female POV in a given song or time period.

I have an acquantance who edits a glossy hip hop rag. He's a new father, determined not to mellow with parenthood, planning to expose his kid to the full spectrum of raps, educate Jr. that it's a form of language and expression, blah blah blah. I say he better educate his wife while he's at it, because the first time that kid calls her bitch, he'll probably be working at American Heritage...

Basically, it's garbage vernacular. It doesn't matter who's speaking, that voice on a hip hop song is the voice of a sales pitch for money. If you pay attention when you're called a bitch, you'll get called a bitch twice. Same way it doesn't matter who the actor is in the McDonald's "I'm Loving It" commercial. That ain't your grandma telling you she loves you, it's a cash register. Kanye knows that.

So it's a heinous influence, the same way watching Happy Days or playing Warcraft 12 hours a day would be heinous. But it's just the sound of a lame culture clicking. Like J Blount says, we had a girl in high school who was accused of farting in 9th grade and earned the nickname Queef for four years. Kids who were eight when it happened followed her down the hall making noises up until graduation. Can't blame MTV or the blacks for that.

Now how do you feel about Burzum's influence on the youth?

Milo very very OTM

I know that I'm more comfortable with 'bitches and hoes' as language than I was in 1997, but I don't feel that my position toward/respect for/whatever women has changed at all.

How exactly did R&B fit into this?

Hm. Why?

avril's the only one on stence's list you'll hear on altrock radio anywhere remotely near as much as ciara on r&b/hip-hop radio.

They're on the radio, but they're ghettoized onto Top 40 or woman-centric stations. (Which, around here is Mix 102.9, a Clear Channel brand that plays Avril to old Sheryl Crow to synth-pop. Very hit or miss, but what I listen to behind hip-hop radio)

i seem to see a lot more pushing/shoving, yelling/verbal abuse, and outright stalking (following a girl for blocks asking her for her number and to suck dick, etc.) than ever before.

the tip drill concept: i'll fuck you but just because you got a nice ass, otherwise you're ugly and meaningless and just a piece of property that i can buy.

xpost - dizzle pls show me those kids, i've never seen any. i know a lot of white emo boys that like destiny's child.

actually beefy white dudes fresh out of college wearing ugly long-sleeved patterned shirts and faded jeans wandering from jock bar to jock bar in West L.A. are worse than any sort of 15 yr old bus-riding kid listening to Nelly.

Uhh well girls who went to my high school to thread!

i was hanging out in oregon with this hispanic family drinking wine and listening to tunes and having fun and the little girls were singing kelis's "milkshake" and it kinda threw me off.

You mean the ones saying they need a "Soldier" right now?

i seem to see a lot more pushing/shoving, yelling/verbal abuse, and outright stalking (following a girl for blocks asking her for her number and to suck dick, etc.) than ever before.

the tip drill concept: i'll fuck you but just because you got a nice ass, otherwise you're ugly and meaningless and just a piece of property that i can buy.

And because I've had to live through this, I'll agree that guys are a lot more aggressive nowadays. But I personally think it's because they haven't gotten their ass kicked by a pissed off girl quite yet.

You mean the ones saying they need a "Soldier" right now?

Honestly, I don't see the negative effects of a song like this. It might as well be a song about how these girls like dangerous guys aka the oldest template in the book?! Barely misogynyst if at all.

many xposts to Ned: I don't know why, exactly.
I'm a lot less politically uptight than I was in 1997, I'm more comfortable with dark/negative aspects to life, and how art is often about play-acting divorced from day-to-day life.

Maybe there's some cognitive dissonance at play, but I don't equate the words in themselves as demeaning women. In specific contexts, certainly but as a whole and as they're often used the words are just signifiers of young, often stupid, bragadaccio.

the atlanta hip-hop station playlist is 38% female or female fronted acts

the atlanta altrock station playlist is 2% female or female fronted acts

love you too, but yeah I admit I forgot the verse context for the chorus. It's been a while since I heard it.

[Hook: DC]
If his status ain't hood
I ain't checkin' for him
Betta be street if he lookin' at me
I need a soldier
That ain't scared to stand up for me
Known to carry big things
If you know what I mean
If his status ain't hood
I ain't checkin' for him
Betta be street if he looking at me
I need a soldier
That ain't scared to stand up for me
Gotta know to get dough
And he betta be street

[Second Verse: Beyonce (DC)]
We like dem boys up top from the BK {BK}
Know how to flip that money three ways {Three ways}
Always ridin' big on the freeway {Freeway}
(Wit that east coast slang that us country girls be like)
Low cut -- wit the deep waves {deep waves}
So quick to snatch up your Beyonce {Beyonce}
Always comin down poppin our way {Our way}
(Tellin us that country girls the kinda girl they like)

[Hook: DC]
If his status ain't hood
I ain't checkin' for him
Betta be street if he lookin' at me
I need a soldier
That ain't scared to stand up for me
Known to carry big things
If you know what I mean
If his status ain't hood
I ain't checkin' for him
Betta be street if he looking at me
I need a soldier
That ain't scared to stand up for me
Gotta know to get dough
And he betta be street

[Bridge: Beyonce (DC):]
I know some soldiers in here (Where they at, where they at)
They wanna take care of me (Where they at)
I know some soldiers in here (Where they at, where they at)
Don't mind takin one for me (Where they at)
I know some soldiers in here (Where they at, where they at)
They wanna spend that on me (Where they at)
I know some soldiers in here (Where they at, where they at)
Wouldn't mind puttin that on me (Where they at)

[2nd Rap: Lil Wayne]
Hey, see cash money is a army
I'm walkin' wit purple hearts on me
You talkin' to the sargeant
Body marked up like the subway in harlem
Call him, weezy f baby, please say the baby
If you don't see me on the block I ain't tryna hide
I blend in wit the hood, i'm camouflage
Bandana tied, so mommy join my troop
Now every time she hear my name she so ..umf:

[Verse 3: Michelle (DC)]
I like dem boys over there they lookin' strong tonight {Strong tonight}
Just might give one the phone tonight {Phone tonight}
Homey in the dickies in my zone tonight {Zone tonight}
He don't know it might be on tonight {On tonight}
Ooh he lookin' good and he talkin' right {Talkin' right}
He the type that might change my life {Change my life}
Everytime he look at me my girls be like {Girls be like}
(That one may be the one tonight)

[Hook: DC]
If his status ain't hood
I ain't checkin' for him
Betta be street if he lookin' at me
I need a soldier
That ain't scared to stand up for me
Known to carry big things
If you know what I mean
If his status ain't hood
I ain't checkin' for him
Betta be street if he looking at me
I need a soldier
That ain't scared to stand up for me
Gotta know to get dough
And he betta be street

Yeesh. I'm with Candicissima on this song, which I frankly despise on a variety of levels given The Current State of the World (I'm not saying it's a recruiting poster per se but fucking fuck do I hate the vast majority of 'support the troops' nonsense, which is either patronizing or smug). Coming from a military family and all, I'm not exactly thrilled with militarized imagery in pop glamour -- and that, perhaps, is my anecdotal approach.

(xpost: Ned, you realize that the "soldier" in question is a street thug and not the American troops in Baghdad, yes? Because that objection doesn't seem to make a lick of sense.)

GIGANTIC ROFFLES

(xp dan p otm)

Also if you are completely unfamiliar with urban/crunk slang and don't really know much standard English, either.

I HATE
YOU SO UMF
RIGHT NOW

AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!

I know, but like I said, right *now* is a time where the context of What's Happening Now makes the use of such language/imagery in a pop song unsettling. Let's put it this way, I felt skeeved when I first heard what the frickin' TITLE was, not even one note of the song. That may be overreacting on my part, I don't know, but I still don't like it. (So clearly nobody should be covering Donny Osmond's "Soldier of Love" now either. ;-) ) As for the performances for the military, ay yi yi. (I'm a great loather of the whole 'for the boys' shtick.)

Speak for yourself. And LD, I'm objecting to you holding up Destiny's Child in general. They've got some of the most shallow and non-progressive lyrics out there generally. "You got cash, boy...Oh well, I do! You gotta have some floss to get with me!"

Except when it's good New Romantic homo-schlock, right, Ned? ;)

Prove me that Kajagoogoo played a US military rally in 1983 or 1984 and we'll talk. ;-)

I don't get (and to be honest, I don't really want to get) how this equates to misogyny.

x-post

Haha. But that was THE boy, not the boyS.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040213181138/http://www.punkplanet.com/archives/00000004.html

I want to respond to this whole thread unfortunately it's going to take more time than I have at the moment and nothing I'm writing is cohering, but I think there needs to be more discussion of the economic side of things, in the sense of 'hiphop makes money selling this misogynistic image' and how women and economics are talked about within hiphop. With the rock misogyny vs hiphop misogyny, hiphop tends to have more of a narrative of 'society producing the bitch/ho', whereas rock tends more towards 'women are just like that'. With the discussion of why people aren't critising every form of misogyny in popular music, well at the moment it's kind of a triage situation (plus the fact that it's not just about music but society as whole).

Dunno. Why is it fucked up?

Not at all.

Men looking at women sexually when women are trying to get on with other stuff (like getting or doing their jobs, travelling on the bus, hanging out in the bar with friends etc.) is just a pain in the ass. That's not misogyny.

Men thinking that this is the women's problem and men have no responsibility to stop = misogyny.

re : YMCA

"Because it's about having anonymous sex in public?"

What's wrong with that?

Why is that a pain in the ass? Are the men masturbating while this is going on?

What's wrong with that?

Most people don't think it's appropriate for their young children (or hell, their GROWN children) to sing songs about anonymous sexual encounters.

is this a typo or are you suggesting that music analysis is sorting genres according to which one needs the most medical attention (ie, which one is suffering "the most" from mysogyny)?

xpost - no I think he's saying that rock gets moved down the list because no one listens to rock anymore. If Nickelback had five songs in the top-10, then their stance on women might be looked at more.

(xxpost)

I think "looking at women sexually" is too vague to make this sort of generalization about. If everyone followed the strictest sort of rules about these things, I wonder how often men and women would get together (as sex partners) at all. I think some sort of basic consideration and case-by-case judgment is the way to go, rather than making hard and fast rules (about looking).

does anyone know why there are young people around all areas doing this to innocent people?
if you dont know what i'm talking about, its those videos being sent around on phone videos showing mostly young black boys, slapping, flykiking beating up innocent passers by just for their amusement and to pass them around on phones.

what possible reason is there to do this to someone that has done jack 2 u just to impress ur boys? this kind of homo behavoiur really digusts me.

yesteday i saw one of a girl being flykiked by a group of about 6 boys and was really upset....what's that about?

how can it make them feel good to intimidate 1 girl and attack her and theres about 6 of them?

i can usually speculate why most thigs happen or have some sort of idea, but this one has got me baffed.

why would ne1 keep this and pass it around on their phone? my bro found it funny until i reminded him that could be me or his gyal it was happening to.

i know its unlikely that ne1 on this site is likely to go on like that but i was just wondering if some1 can explain WHAT could be the motvation for these 'people'.

has it happened to u or anyone u know?

Blackthought
Member

Posted: Tuesday December 14th, 2004 14:56 -
Reply
I have seen them, in fact I have them on my phone, just like u I was shockingly surprise, must admit the first time I saw, I bust out into laughing, but "it was of a man sleeping on the bus", I haven't seen a female geting beating up.

On the serious note its quiet sadistic thing to do, I can't imagine any of my family member having that been done too. Those boys that are doing that kinda of things to girls for fun, obviously don't have a female in there life that they respect, and God forbid they are the ones that probably grow beating there female partners.

Posted: Tuesday December 14th, 2004 15:44
I have seen it too (on peoples phones) and quite a few different ones. All people going about their business and a group of schoolkids comes up and one slaps them followed by laughing.
From chatting to peoples lil brothers its getting more and more popular.

Posted: Tuesday December 14th, 2004 15:48 -
respec Blackthought, it's funny i hadn't thought of that. when you are raised to respect people around you you tend to think that everyone has morals, is deep down decent and does't cross those kinda lines. i would ask people not to keep those sickos on your phone, cos in a in their sick minds thats their claim to fame.

this reminds me of this black kid, maybe 10 or 11, who zipped by me on the street the other day, stole a grapefruit off a fruitstand (okay no biggie), and then subsequently hurled it with all his strength at a nearby sleeping bum (also black), hitting him in the head, and yelling "wake up motherfucker!" then running down the street laughing. I wanted to wring that little bastard's neck...

This phenomenon is really fucking stupid and lame, to the point where I am almost distracted from the egregious homonym abuse in the quoted thread. I want to shake those little bastards until they bleed, then give the people complaining about it spelling lessons.

The worst thing is this isn't something you can lay at the door of big media. It's a product of all that "democratic", "bottom-up", peer-to-peer media that I'm normally so enthusiastic about.

Actually that link makes me totally depressed. (and disinclined to go back to the UK) :-(

Then I discovered hip hop. I learned from listening to hip hop that women were to be referred to as bitches and hoes, and that I was to treat them like the inferior sub-humans they are. I used bitches for sex and status, and when I was finished I would throw them away. This is how black men relate to bitches as well.

Just recently I realized that I am gay.