"[Music writing] attracts people whose primary interest in it isn't necessarily in the 'writing' part"

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This is reposted from a private list where I got permission from the original sender to repost this as long as I blocked his/her identity. It isn't anything juicy or gossipy.. quite the opposite. In fact. It's a really cogent comment on the state of music journalism today, the past, and probably the future... the "Ed:" parts I inserted to block the identity, but to also retain the credence of the person who originally wrote this...

It's as hard to do good profiles and reviews and Q&As about musicians as it is to write it well about anything else. Even a good celebrity puff piece isn't something anyone can do. Anyway, if you're going to treat music and the music industry like it's worth writing about, you should apply the same standards as you do to "real" journalism.

The problem is that the standards across that sector of the publishing industry are low, so a lot of bad shit gets published in a way that looks legit (nice graphics, glossy paper, and now good web design) and looking legit makes it legit.

My experience with music writers (extensive: I was the music editor at the [Ed: entertainment publication] for [Ed: a number larger than 5] years) is that a lot of them read nothing but other music writing, which is bad because the only way to learn to write is to read good writing. But because it's a field that requires some specialized knowledge (and therefore requires you to decipher a lot of badly written reviews and profiles to get info you need), music writing is like travel writing or food writing--when it's done well it can be transcendent, but it attracts people whose primary interest in it isn't necessarily in the "writing" part.

It's this last bit that's the most interesting to me. Personally, I don't whole-heartedly agree with it, but I think it absolutely applies to anyone who *first* gets into music via written pieces about music. I never really cared how "well" the music article was written when I was an adolescent. I just wanted to read about my favorite band! The more words, the better.. period. This POV will vary greatly from person to person, but I feel confident my first experiences aren't that different than those of most.

I just wanted to explore this, and step back.. because, I'll admit, I've been reading about music in this bubble that people care about how well the piece was written as well as how informative the piece was as well. A piece can be informative but terribly written. A piece can also be uninformative but greatly written.

Anyway, off to a meeting, but thoughts?

donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:01 (twenty years ago)

It's the feedback loop nature of being locked into only reading other music writers which is most interesting to me. I think the poster you quote either ignores or undersells the sheer variety of approaches that one can now find out there with a little effort (or even none at all -- thanks, Freaky Trigger sidebar!) which discusses music both informatively and intelligently, and does so in many different stylistic fashions. That said, the larger point is that these many writers are able to show this precisely because of those authors they themselves are inspired by, which in many cases can have little or nothing to do with music.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

xpost!

I don't agree with the assessment on an at-face or visceral level, but on the other hand my slightly-greater interest in writing than music is one of the (many) things that keep me from aspiring to be a serious/actual/professional critic.

Still, no, no, I think it's pretty far off-base; there's more resonance for me in this idea that music writers read a lot of music writing, as is to be expected, and so what develops is a particular inbred music-critic style and aesthetic that can be impenetrable and irritating and unfriendly and just plain ugly to people who haven't already made their way into it. (Hello, Village Voice!)

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:28 (twenty years ago)

For the record: (a) that's not meant to disparage the Voice, just to pick a handy example of that tendency, plus (b) I suppose that writing-aesthetic stretches beyond music into lots of other cultural-criticism endeavors; there are just a few structural things about music fandom that I think make it really prevalent there.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

>A piece can be informative but terribly written. A piece can also be uninformative but greatly written.

I always choose informative over stylistically fresh/hep/cool/whatever. And that's what I want as a reader, too. I'm definitely one of those people not interested in the "writing" part of music writing. Fuck your style. Tell me whether I should be giving this artist (or his/her label) my money. Once that message has been gotten across crisply and clearly, then you can start masturbating.

BTW, I also hate most celebrated young novelists, who are just as up-their-own-asses as the worst of the word-game music critics. Just tell the goddamn story.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

I've always been a traditionalist in that I expect my favorite music writers to describe the goddamn music. They can use personal reminiscences, literary allusions, funny stories or anything else as long as it's in the service of describing the music. (Actually, I take that back: most literary allusions in record reviews are horribly pretentious.) But there's definitely some room for experimentation as long as the reader comes away with these important questions answered: "Who made this record? Why should I care? What does it sound like?"

mike a, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

Umm, PDF, I think "crispy and clearly" constitutes a style!

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:40 (twenty years ago)

>Umm, PDF, I think "crispy and clearly" constitutes a style!

Not in rockcritland, it doesn't.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

Dude, that's exactly what we're talking about! It's almost solely in the world of music writing that PDF can come along and think of "style" and "good writing" as being hip and masturbatory -- in nearly every other field, "crisp and clear" is the conventional definition of "good writing," and highly-stylized prose is reserved for literary endeavors. (When was the last time you saw an NYRB essay whose prose you'd describe as "masturbatory?") PDF = the disconnect we're talking about.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:44 (twenty years ago)

That's an xposting mess, but hopefully you see what I'm saying. I mean, basically I agree with you -- rockcrit prose aesthetics are pretty far removed from those of the rest of the world, at least in part due to a form of inbreeding. Sometimes that aesthetic works, and sometimes it doesn't; I'm certainly not nearly as into it as I imagine most big rockcrit readers are. On the other hand, I've made an effort at various points to write record reviews in a more modestly lit-based "good writing" voice, and I've realized that unless you're SFJ or something it can feel vaguely thankless. Part of the impulse with rockcrit flash is surely just a desire to, yeah, do tricks and be noticed.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

I became interested in reading music writing because of the music.

I became interesting in writing music writing when I realized you could do it in an interesting way, in a way that was enjoyable to read, no matter what you're writing about.

Generally, I find the best pieces of music writing are of the "could be writing about anything" variety. The introductory nature of a lot of pieces hampers them.

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

NYRB essays are strikingly "crisp and clear" compared to the dreck PDF is talking about.

xpost

Keith C (kcraw916), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:51 (twenty years ago)

And we're not just talking about prose style here--we're talking about writing that has some thought behind it, that has an actual argument to make. Editor X always insisted that [Ed: Entertainment Publication]'s music writing had to have some kind of point behind it, that it couldn't just be enthusiasm.

Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

For my money, the opposition that PDF sets out above -- consumers' guide vs masturbatory expressionism -- is precisely the problem with most music writing today; most writers and readers seem to think those are the only two options, pick a side, and hiss at anyone they perceive to belong to the other camp. But criticism has never been limited to these two fields. What about writing that explains how a piece of music works, and why? That can get inside it and explain its mechanics (and I don't mean purely formally, but socially as well)? The implication may be, this is brilliant, go buy it, but its first intention is not to influence your purchasing, but rather to make you think a little.

philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

>It's almost solely in the world of music writing that PDF can come along and think of "style" and "good writing" as being hip and masturbatory -- in nearly every other field, "crisp and clear" is the conventional definition of "good writing," and highly-stylized prose is reserved for literary endeavors.

Two quick points:

1. I didn't just "come along," I've been writing about music for money since 1996, and there are places I won't even bother pitching because they waste so much space on masturbatory idiots.

2. The problem is just as widespread in fiction/lit - remember that "Reader's Manifesto" that The Atlantic ran a few years ago?

pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

search: Christgau's "Writing About Music is First: Writing; Second: Music" or some such title...

ken taylrr (ken taylrr), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

OMG, you did not just bring that up.

Franzen's weird little piece didn't apply to literary criticism, it applied to actual novels. The equivalent would be complaining about the Decembrists' lyrics.

xpost

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)

regarding my last post... http://www.emplive.org/visit/education/popConfBio.asp?xPopConfBioID=250&year=2004

ken taylrr (ken taylrr), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

"Who made this record? Why should I care? What does it sound like?"

This may be what readers want, but the burnout rate that this approach produces among writers is amazing. At some point, you invariably begin to feel like a copywriter. There's just way too much product coming down the pike way too fast. Hence, "meta" reviews wherein the reviewer pretends he's writing a medical progress report or some such; it may be annoying but it's a way to let off steam. And when they're great, they're great (Christgau's infamous "skid marks" piece).

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

Phil, Phil, I'm not trying to argue with you here, and I don't mean for that choice of words to raise hackles. I just found your wording really fascinating and revealing. You basically said "fuck style, I want to hear it crisp and clear before you masturbate," which is something that's constantly said about music writing and yet doesn't even make sense anywhere else: anywhere else, "crisp and clear" prose is style, style itself.

(And for the record the problem is only "just as widespread" in fiction among a celebrated top tier of young white-male novelists; the problem that's actually widespread is the massive production of crisp, clear, spare and immaculate short stories that will bore you half to death. Most people get to avoid those.)

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

(And just to throw this out there -- David Foster Wallace, posterboy for a lot of the stylistic tics that get called out as hysterical or masturbatory in fiction terms, has written essays and criticism that contain every one of those tics and yet are still less opaque than plenty of music criticism. But he doesn't have a word count, so I dunno. Where is the music critic who writes like Edmund Wilson?)

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

n -

I understand what you mean. We are in agreement. But it doesn't matter what other types of writing are doing right, all that matters is that music criticism - the subject under discussion - is so consistently doing it wrong (and it is). For whatever reason, a mix of puns 'n' namechecks 'n' obfuscation has become industry standard, to the point where someone like Richard Meltzer, or to use a more current example, Dave Q (who I really like, as a one-on-one human being), is lauded as a genius music critic, when in fact his stuff is damn close to unreadable, and utterly useless when one has $15 in hand and is thinking about heading on down to the record store on a Tuesday afternoon after school.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

I also think you have to be able to leave a little bit up to the reader. There are numerous sources for raw info out there (AMG etc.) and so I think that the practical purpose of a review is to give you enough info to let you know if you'll like it or not, or to try and dissuade or encourage the reader about a particular album that the writer feels strongly about. You only need to note who the bassist is if that's pertinent to that purpose.

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

no no, that's not what i meant at all! i mean that style and meaning are integrally intertwined (god, what kind of modernist am i? a classic one, obv)! i don't think there's a clean and crisp "essence" that then style can be added to. shit, my writing is totally obfuscatory, but that's the only way i can make the (dubious) arguments i'm making in the first place!

philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

PDF's last post reflects what I hear a lot from my non-critic friends.

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:11 (twenty years ago)

For the record, A Reader's Manifesto was written by someone named BR Meyers, not Jonathan Franzen. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200107/myers

That's probably all I will be able contribute to this thread, so it needn't die just yet

W i l l (common_person), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

I started a thread about the reader's manifesto on I Love Books that you guys probably missed because you apparently don't read books:

A Reader's Manifesto: Classic or Dud?

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

>This may be what readers want, but the burnout rate that this approach produces among writers is amazing. At some point, you invariably begin to feel like a copywriter.

Folks who think they can't hack it should try writing copy for a porn magazine for five years, like I did. How many different ways can you come up with to describe the exact same intersections of male and female genitalia - ten pictorials an issue, thirteen issues a year?

pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

Considering how difficult it is to write about music in a clear, thoughtful, informative way - I'd say that the state of music writing these days is pretty good. I think it's harder to find quality contemporary art criticism, for instance.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

Where are all the great film critics!

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

All I want to know is what the movie looks like! Is that so hard???

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:19 (twenty years ago)

God, it's even worse with movies or books--not only can you tell too little, you can tell too much! At least music geeks don't get huffy about being told what the 8th track on the album sounds like...

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)

Ha ha -- Phil, my "Phil" was to the other Phil! Such massive confusion when I basically agree with everyone. Interestingly enough I give Dave Q a pass as being pretty much the world's most entertaining music critic for other music critics to read; I try not to think about how irritating it must be for readers who just happen to stumble across it in the local alt-weekly.

I dunno: sometimes I'm depressed by the number of critics I know who don't really read a ton outside of other criticism; sometimes I'm depressed by the number of critics I know who are better-versed in literature than I am.

For the record: I think genuine high-level literary criticism (i.e., not the book-report reviews in papers) does the best job of getting inside the work itself. But then it has any number of advantages: addressing words with words, having a relatively concrete world-image to talk about, having hundreds of years of development time, etc. Film criticism has certain problems of audience, I think. I dunno what would have to happen to strip the industry-standard jargon out of music criticism -- the internet surely isn't helping things. Possibly Tom Ewing has to edit everything ever, and instead of covering new releases, publications would be full of writers who just happened to have interesting thoughts about some songs from last year.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)

is charles aaron the most 'influential' critic of the past ten or so years? did he birth that spinmag house style or did it precede him (it wasn't quite there in the late 80s john leland glory days spin)? it definitely seems to be the predominent tone in ALOT of popcrit now - some of pfork (though maybe not as much as there once was), some voice (oddly not so much the pfork type stuff though?), far too many bad music blogs, vh1 sorta.

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

Frank Zappa said "Writing about music is about as useful as dancing about architecture". What a quote!

musicjohn73 (musicjohn73), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:09 (twenty years ago)

For what it's worth, and I'm not promising that it will be worth much, I find that most of the critics that I enjoy reading (Not just music) are also good journalists. In other words, they could write about pretty much anything for a magazine or newspaper. Matos & Wolk are two people on this board who I feel fit this bill. I have a real love for newspaper and magazine writing and I love reading people who are good at it. Not that there aren't exceptions. There are a few people who only write music reviews who I am a fan of as well. But there aren't that many that I can think of. (This makes sense though, cuz I don't read much rock crit.)I can't help but think that the original quote at the top of this thread is really just saying in a roundabout way: The more you know, the more you learn, the more you read, the more you write, the better. And the only response to that is: Well, duh.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:10 (twenty years ago)

God, it took long enough for someone to drag out that tired-ass quote. (xpost)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)

Actually Zappa overheard Charles Mingus saying that quote to Elvis Costello.

Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:12 (twenty years ago)

...while beating up Paul McCartney's double.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:13 (twenty years ago)

writing about architecture is like dancing to music!

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)

(And what he actually said was "The only thing cooler than writing about music would be dancing about architecture." And then Costello was like "What if somebody wrote about the dancing about the architecture, and then I wrote a song about the article?" And then Mingus said "Oh my god, that would be so rad.")

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:15 (twenty years ago)

Vince Lombardi once said "A tie is like fucking your sister."

Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

Anyhow, I do think there's a major truth to that original quote; there's so much music writing available that if you wanted, all you'd have to do is read it to the exclusion of everything else. (I fall prey to this at times myself.) And ideas are paramount--the best writers have lots of them, the worst have very few, and no amount of stylistic gewgaws will cover that up. (I don't use Dave Queen because I'm trying to play a trick on my readers, I use him because he's funny as hell and has ridiculous amounts of ideas. See the Rhino punk box piece -- http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0348/031126_music_punk.php -- and the Yes piece -- http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0415/040414_music_yes.php -- for examples.)

Aaron is one of the top eds at Spin, and there's a lot of editing all the pieces go through, so his mark is going to be on a lot of stuff as a rule.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

i have a hard time reading a lot of music criticism (part of which is cuz i read it all day for work, though that stuff is almost always GREAT)(after working with j0hn m0rthland for a year, i'm convinced that he's one of the greats, if not THE great), mainly because the current predominant format -- the capsule review -- makes all copy come out like mush, as writers struggle between writing what they THINK they're 'sposed to write and actually saying what they want to say (provided that they do have something to say). but it's not much better in the longer format -- it's there that you can easily separate the real mccoys from the happy-to-be-heres. there's definitely a problem with music writers reading too much music writing, but that's true of political pundits (hello david broder!), sports writers, SCREENWRITERS, etc., too. i think the underlying problem is this: most writers -- in any field -- just aren't very good!

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

Jams Murphy has nailed it nailed it nailed it. FILM CRITICISM!!!! (the most free-pass sector of the biz if you ask me, I've complained about it on ILM/E frequently enough as is)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)

But Matos, it's a family friendly medium that your kids will enjoy!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:24 (twenty years ago)

David Sheehan's turns will give you a spring in your step and a smile in your heart!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

"Now this movie does use the word 'doo-doo', which unfortunately renders this movie quite crass, and perhaps a bit shocking to many of you planning to take your kids along..."

David Sheehan

donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:26 (twenty years ago)

damn, greater-than sign filters.. that was supposed to say

David Sheehan >------- my angry hands

donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Can I help? Can I rip out his ribcage?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

Do we make R0b3rt H1lburn lick the entrails?

donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

(For those blessed with ignorance on this point, Sheehan is to mainstream LA media coverage on movies as Robert Hilburn is to music reviewing -- except I actually think Hilburn still honestly likes music, I'll give him that much.)

Hahah xpost!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:29 (twenty years ago)

MOST UNCOMFORTABLE INTERVIEW EVER:

Sheehan talking to Janet Jackson about her 'new sexy image' during the promo rounds for janet

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:29 (twenty years ago)

More on the magic that is Sheehan:

http://www.popcultmag.com/passingfancies/bottomfive/moviecritics/moviecritics1.html

http://www.candidcritic.com/criticizing_the_critic.htm

ARGGGGG

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

haha remember the OUTRAGE over a.o. scott getting a filmcrit post at the times? 'HE'S JUST A BOOK CRITIC - WHAT DOES HE KNOW???' i remember wollcott's piece on the paulettes a few years back about how some film critics proudly REFUSE to read anything besides other film criticism. i can understand this somewhat, i don't think there's anything wrong with people writing for other people in their field, i think that's necessary even, but i generally prefer people who can* jump around and do. foxes vs. hedgehogs.


* this means not nick hornby or ben greenman.

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

Cripes, I think I even liked Gary Franklin a bit more. And he was a goddamn moron!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:39 (twenty years ago)

I'd hazard to guess that most of the great music critics of the last 30 years (Christgau, Marcus, Frith, Eddy, Bernstein, Sheffield, etc) read other stuff besides music criticism. Their styles reflect the richness of their reading! Someone asked where is the music crit equivalent of Edmund Wilson; I'd say read anyone of those guys and you'll see echoes: Wilson, Gore Vidal, Pauline Kael, Raymond Williams, Orwell, and others.

Since my background is English lit I want my critical prose to honor my education. Henry James is as much an influence in my work as Xgau, for instance.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:39 (twenty years ago)

I suspect my background is my own rambling mouth. This doesn't help much.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

I try and let the lit background into criticism, too, which is a bit of an odd quest since "success" means the reader will neither notice nor care much. I asked about Wilson, though, because I was thinking of his reviews of Hemingway and Joyce -- magazine-article reviews of little-known authors, each of which would have placed him in a position not so different from some of those on this thread. Unfortunately I can't find the reviews online -- just Google cache lucking onto the New Republic's rerun of the Ulysses one(XXX)

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

I have zero lit background. I have a degree in comp sci. And I learned how to change records on a record player before I completed potty training. But I'll offer this though....

Some people may make complaints about reviewers that have a more obfuscated style.. but, when I was a kid reading about my favorite bands in zines and higher profile magazines, the prose didn't really matter to me. I was going to take a chance on the band, either way. However, it was hearing about them -- and more importantly -- those OTHER bands that gatewayed me to more musical discovery.

And also to reviewers that can't help name-drop band comparisons.. we all feel tired and/or guilty of them. But I discover a LOT of music through this indirect promotion that these bands get. For example, I would have never discovered Skinny Puppy had it not been for a review of Cabaret Voltaire's Code back in 1987 that mentioned "key influencees in the industrial scene".. and so on. Skinny Puppy -- for better or worse -- ended up being my very first live concert a year later.

I know I'm limiting this particular sidetrack to reading music journalism when young.. but I think music writing really shapes the way one who is part of TEH YOUF approaches and, inevitably, enjoys music later (College radio is another, in different ways, of course
), and the type of prose used to talk about the band, informatively or not, just doesn't matter as much as it does to us impatient old codgers... who gives a fuck about us? We're not so much the target demographic!

donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

Well, what I mean by using your non-music crit reading, I'm not referring to merely using Joyce and Roland Barthes as allusions - I meant studying their grammar: use of modifiers, clauses, how to write terse description and how to add color without dyeing your prose purple.

(xpost)

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

When I was 12 years old it was much a pleasure unpacking Christgau's prose as it was absorbing Henry James.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

(Wait, wait -- something's missing from that Wilson link -- I seem to remember a bit where he bitches about patterning and complains that something or other is just "a pretext for mentioning flowers." I'd never want to write with the snobby authoritative Wilson voice, but a line like "I doubt whether anyone will defend parts of Ulysses against the charge of extreme dullness" -- this is something to shoot for.)

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

Also I suddenly feel dishonest: most of the rockcrit aesthetics we're talking about are relatively confined to a fairly narrow circle of publications. If you're just standing at the Barnes and Noble magazine rack, or poking around major web publications, the vast majority of the material you'll see is going to have the same fluffy magazine entertainment-journalism style as anything else.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

Thus the effect of the ILX hothouse and similar locales. It tends to overwhelm perceptions in many instances.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

Writing business copy all the time has killed my appreciation of a crisp just-the-facts approach, but it's also dulled my liking for more flowery efforts. When I read about music now, I only want to read critics I've got to know, and I want them to write in a conversational, perhaps slightly donnish style, as if we were two old duffers in a gentleman's club discussing the latest releases over a morning kipper.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

Will an omelette do?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

I think I music criticism to read like, well, somewhere between literary criticism and the digressive bits of good novels -- which is to say, sharp and engaged (crit), full of engaging conversational voice (novels), and relatively clear in prose, if not concept (both?). The part that's difficult about having a lit-based approach is that music criticism just doesn't give you the space for the kind of voice-seduction and idea-development that works elsewhere.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 20:51 (twenty years ago)

Christgau and Marcus at their best are pretty seductive.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 21:11 (twenty years ago)

So is John Leland:

Singles [from fall 1989, not sure which month]

Around the time Rolling Stone asked a panel of writers to name the 100 best singles of the last 25 years, I asked role model and sex goddess Roxanne Shanté for the Top 10 jams of all time. The Rolling Stone crew, eulogizing the single in the past tense, came up with a quarter century of brilliant music, most of it from the mid-to-late-Sixties; Shanté didn’t name anything older than Keith Sweat’s album. (She loves the whole thing.) I put the question to my friend Professor D; he said he didn’t care, as long as Public Enemy’s “Night of the Living Baseheads” was at the top.

The differences here concern not taste but orientation: to the average hip hopper, the best record of all time might be the one that slapped him/her in the face this morning. While the Rolling Stone bunch came up with devastatingly good records, their list is stillborn, the blueprint for a classic rock format that most of the panelist no doubt consider the music’s enemy. Shanté’s list, on the other hand, is a springboard into the future. This may explain why, at a time when mainstream rock’n’roll really needs a good argument for its continuing relevance, hip hop leaps beyond relevance and into the center of peoples’ lives. No looking back, no hagiography to weigh you down; hit it and quit. And if you’re lucky, ascend to godhead. The legacy of the music is up for grabs every time an act enters the studio. Is it any wonder that Stetsasonic sounds so much more urgent than Bruce Springsteen?

---

It seemed like a joke at the time (D’ja hear the one about the rapper with the speech impediment?), but as the summer ground down toward the Tyson-Green bout, the No. 1 Black album in the country was EPMD’s Strictly Business (Fresh), an adventure in creative pronunciation. Strictly Business is possibly the most consistently low-keyed hip hop album ever, a deadpan drone that extends a minimum of samples into effortless funk. Hip hop renaissance man Fab Five Freddy likens it to the early Miles Davis albums; taken a minute at a time, it sounds indistinct, unimpressive, but taken as a whole, it is a remarkable triumph of attitude. The new single, “Strictly Business,” reduces the funk to a simple guitar riff and the chorus to Bob Marley’s “I Shot the Sheriff.” The rappers juxtapose an innocence that no doubt exceeds their own with a homicidal chill that’s probably just as exaggerated. Best and most surprising lyric: You sniff blow--hell no/I got my whole life ahead of me/No time to be sniffin’/My parents find out/Then they start riffin’.

---

On their way to No. 1, EPMD displaced Al B. Sure, whose string of hits--“Nite and Day,” “Off on Your Own (Girl),” “Rescue Me” (all Uptown/Warner)--mark him as one of the players in the new black pop. Group him with Keith Sweat (“I Want Her,” “Make It Last Forever”), Johnny Kemp (“Just Got Paid”), and Guy (“Groove Me”) and call the music b-boy pop: pop songs that take their sound and attitude from hip hop. Full Force defined this genre a few years ago with the formative “Aice, I Want You Just For Me!” but moved on to other things, leaving the field open. Now it has exploded. Teddy Riley, who produced seriously funky pop b-boy records for Kool Moe Dee, Spoonie Gee and Heavy D. and the Boyz, had a hand in more of these b-boy pop records than I’d care to mention; his own group, Guy, looks like the most promising of the bunch. But taken together, and discounting Public Enemy, these acts made the definitive music of the summer. Ask me on the right day and I’ll call these the best records of all time. Really, I will.

---

A local radio talk show host said recently that, like Charles Manson, Mike Tyson has a song he believes speaks to him, and which explains some of the turmoil in his brain. The host then began reading selected lyrics from Public Enemy’s “Don’t Believe the Hype”: The minute they see me, fear me/I’m the epitome of the enemy and so on. Tyson was at Dapper Dan’s, 125th Street’s most celebrated fake fashion entrepreneur, having a leather jacket designed with the song’s title on the back, when Mitch Green declared their impromptu bout. The talk show host spoke with righteous alarm. Maybe Chuck D is right; maybe he really does scare people. As for Dapper Dan, he probably didn’t need the publicity.

THE A-LIST
Ziggy Marley, “Tumblin’ Down” (Virgin)
Audio Two, “Hickeys Around My Neck” (First Priority/Atlantic)
Jesus and Mary Chain, “Surfin’ USA (Sumer Mix)/Kill Surf City” (Warner)
Joey Kid, “Broken Promises” (Bassment)
KMFDM, “Don’t Blow Your Top” (Wax Trax!)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:23 (twenty years ago)

Is it any wonder that Stetsasonic sounds so much more urgent than Bruce Springsteen?

Not much changes. *dodges brickbats* Nice to see the KMDFM mention too!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:26 (twenty years ago)

I'm SOOOO tempted to type up and post the "Temporary Music" one it isn't funny.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:28 (twenty years ago)

re-reading all these Spin columns is making me think Leland with the Lefty Grove of popcrit (that one's for Blount)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:30 (twenty years ago)

sorry, think Leland WAS the blah blah blah

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:31 (twenty years ago)

Heh, for a sec I'm all 'the hell?'

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:32 (twenty years ago)

Leland with the Lefty Groove vs. Nancy with the Laughing Face

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:32 (twenty years ago)

hahahaha - i actually thought of leland immediately too before opening this thread, i remember reading some interview with him from last fall where the interviewer asked him which current writers he admired or tried to emulate and he mentioned people like 'louis menand' and i remember thinking 'yeah he's aiming for a bit more than rock critic' and then getting kinda sad cuz goddamn, what a rock critic. those singles columns probably played a bigger role in forming how and what i thought about music than damn near anything else i could name (yo! mtv raps and local college radio the only challengers).

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:41 (twenty years ago)

something related hit me today, reading a show preview for the jr. boys in the paper. i know i like them & i read the review and there was nothing wrong with it but if i didn't already know i liked them, it would do nothing to make me like them.

there was nothing wrong with the preview. it was fine. but, like a shocking amount of capsule-format clean "here's what it is like" reviews (and even lengthier pieces) it didn't make me interested in the music at all, and to some degree even turned me off.

so yeah, i think music-crit that describes music may be overrated. i mean, good god it gets boring quick!

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:47 (twenty years ago)

hell with it:

Singles: Temporary Music
by John Leland
[late 1989, I think]

The drum machine and digital sampler propose a new metaphor for making music, a new equation for the transferal of energy. According to the old equation, sweat is currency, traded in a tacit contract between the performer and the audience. The musicians promise to work hard, and we promise to dance hard, or whatever. On a good record, you can feel the musicians working hard. Conventional as it might see--Protestant work ethic and all that--we get actual satisfaction from a sense of other people’s physical exertion in their labors. It is a contract fulfilled: They sweat, we sweat. Endorphins make the rounds. Can the wild thing--or some thinly veiled metaphor for it--be far behind?

This may explain part of rock’s romance with amateurism, and part of the appeal of punk: once a guy can play those four or five chords without trying, what good is he? “Slick” music is just music without the sweat. There is no contract, and the music, in the end, comes off as patronizing. It also explains part of the appeal of classic rock. Listen to “Baba O’Riley” by the Who or Jackie Wilson’s “Lonely Teardrops.” They were built on hard work, on sweat and muscle, just like the pyramids--not built for speed, but built to last.

This is a fraudulent conceit, at least as far as records are concerned. As a document of an event, a record captures only what the musicians made, not how they made it. But the contract between the performer and the listener also involves trust: we’ll accept that if a record does a lot of work--if it makes a speaker cone move a lot of air--then the musicians must have put a great effort into it. It also involves our willingness to be deceived: we accept that it takes more human energy to play a loud guitar than a quiet one. We confer the power of the amplifiers onto the players, making them something more potent than mere mortals.

Digital music confounds this metaphor. Listen to Milli Vanilli’s “Girl You Know It’s True” (Arista) or Paula Abdul’s “Straight Up” (Virgin)--two of my favorite singles from 1989, both better than the acts’ current hits. Both are built almost entirely of samples or other computer data, constructed out of undigested matter. And both generate as much energy as the average Who or Guns N’ Roses Song. But neither feels like a monument erected for posterity, and neither conveys the sense of work on the part of the performers.

If Bobby Brown is the major star of the year--sexier and more charismatic than anyone else out there--and Soul II Soul’s “Keep on Movin’” (Virgin) is the single of the year, Milli Vanilli’s “Girl You Know It’s True” still seems like the year’s most telling musical moment. Constructed on the fly, built on a beat lifted from another record, it seems more like a snapshot from an ongoing process than a finished artifact. The group’s two members, complete in the moment (even their hair conveys the immediacy of a digital bite, rather than the analog process of growth over time), are the human equivalent of samples. The record is temporary music, and if 1989 has a theme--despite all the old guys’ comebacks--this is it.

Peter Hook of New Order calls digital technology and the music that has risen around it the new punk. And while it’s hard to consider “Girl You Know It’s True” a modern-day “Anarchy in the U.K.,” Hook has a point. The sampler opens the process of making music to anyone. More significantly, it accelerates it and dramatically reduces the cost.

The metaphor is changed. Computers remove the element of work from the equation; because they process information instantaneously, they eliminate the idea of time. In its place, computers offer access--instant access, not just to notes but to whole musical constructs--and by the same token, instant and total erasure. Get a piece of data, use it, erase it completely, with no messy paper debris left over; once it’s gone, it’s gone. This is the new metaphor, the basis for the new contract. Milli Vanilli can make a great record and not add anything new to the world, or repeat anything old.

There’s nothing new about music that’s fun for a few weeks and then disappears without a trace. There is something new about music that foreshadows and maybe even dictates its disappearance in its construction. This is the contribution of the new machines. As much as rock’n’roll is a product of the technology that delivers it, digital samplers made Milli Vanilli inevitable.

The thing that strikes me about “Girl You Know It’s True” is Milli Vanilli’s sense of history. To make their record, they sampled the beat from the 1987 Coldcut remix of Eric B. & Rakim’s “Paid in Full.” Eric B., in turn, had already sampled it from the Soul Searchers’ “Ashley’s Roachclip,” a 1974 obscurity that Bronx hip hop DJs like Jazzy Jay or Afrika Bambaataa used to cut up back in the days. Milli Vanilli couldn’t trace the beat past 1987. I asked them about this; they said that the way they heard it, the Soul Searchers sampled the beat from Coldcut. I was appalled, or at least amused. But dang me if it wasn’t me being the doofus. I was living in the past. Milli Vanilli’s real talent may be their ability to recognize that beat as a piece of information, without author or history, accessible at the push of a button and gone with a second push. They do more than embrace their mortality; they embrace their own nonexistence.

It’s easy to write Milli Vanilli off as insignificant--as much as anything else, they traffic in their irrelevance. But the listening process they pair up against is probably here to stay, at least for awhile. And it is generally a mistake to underestimate the influence of dance music and rap in projecting the future of other pop musics. This morning I listened to A Taste of Honey’s “Boogie Oogie Oogie,” a classic 1978 disco record, against John Cougar Mellencamp’s “Pop Singer,” which I expected to be relatively free of disco influences. The drums and bass, once thought to be oppressively dominant on disco records, were actually louder on “Pop Singer.” It felt like I could draw the history of pop music just from those two singles. Maybe next month.

THE A-LIST:
Coldcut, “People Hold On” (Tommy Boy)
Blue Jean, “Paradise” (Top Secret)
Exposé, “What You Don’t Know” (Arista)
L.L. Cool J, “I’m That Type of Guy” (Def Jam)
Kool Moe Dee, “They Want Money” (Jive/RCA)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:54 (twenty years ago)

i can't decide if these are inspiring me or depressing me

strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:56 (twenty years ago)

try sitting here w/a five-year stack of the fuckers. good thing I'm retiring next month (haha I wish).

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:57 (twenty years ago)

haha i referenced that closing paragraph about "pop singer" on a thread like two weeks ago.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:02 (twenty years ago)

They don't really inspire me. But Louis Menand does!

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:05 (twenty years ago)

I have never read John Leland before but this stuff is pretty great.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:07 (twenty years ago)

haha Tim, Leland is the fucking DON of pretty much everything old-ILX holds dear

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:09 (twenty years ago)

five years! this sort of thing would be run out on a rail after two months as an "experiment" these days.

strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:10 (twenty years ago)

the first couple years are mostly him doing bite-sized reviews (two pages' worth! TWO FUCKING PAGES!); it's around '87 that it turns into a single-page essay-type of thing. someone needs to publish this stuff as a book pronto.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:11 (twenty years ago)

haha i was pretty well ready to give up writing after tonight before this anyway

strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:11 (twenty years ago)

From 1985:

Madonna: "Angel" b/w "Into the Groove" (Sire)
Here's an interesting way to extend a dance mix: add a bunch of useless dudes chanting the singer's name to the beat. "Angel" is Nile Rodgers doing what he does best: turning crass product into cash product. A rehash of "Lucky Star" with an even lamer melody and punch. But you probably didn't care anyway. "Into the Groove," however, is dandy pop disco, the most, er, real thing she's done to date. It gathers honest momentum and doesn't insult your intelligence. I hate her, too, but this sucker is as tight as her navel. She knows a good deal more about grooves than about virginity.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:14 (twenty years ago)

same column:

Vitamin Z: "Burning Flame" (Geffen)
Vitamin Z may change the way you listen to music: you may give it up entirely. This "specially priced two-cut maxi-single" (actually two mixes of the same cut--amply precedented, but why lie about it?) tries to stretch its obnoxiously whiny and lightweight self over a totally unjustified seven-plus minutes. Nothing happens in the song or in the mix. The band hasn't got enough ideas to fill the tune, let alone extend it. Plus the dreary melody and self-pitying lyrics are pathetic. How dare they call this wet rag "Burning Flame"?

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:16 (twenty years ago)

also 1985, different column:

Red Hot Chili Peppers: "Jungle Man," "Nevermind," and "Stranded" b/w "Hollywood (Africa)" (EMI)
Last time out, the Chilis were an exceptionally inspired bad band, singing bad songs with stupid lyrics and attitude to spare. They made you feel like you just stepped in dog-shit, but they also made you feel okay about it. This latest disc finds them working with George Clinton and moving closer to the nut. Not necessarily a good thing. Take away the Chilis' glaring flaws and they're just another band. Much of this record sounds like a bunch of white guys playing funk. They do it with some elan, and Fred Wesley and the Horny Horns help, but they sacrifice some of their identity for the sake of competence. They get it together on "Hollywood (Africa)," a schizophrenic song about roots (Clinton's and the Chilis') that grabs the essence of this collarboration by the nuts with a groove that transcends.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:21 (twenty years ago)

see, i probably just hated him in 1985 for saying he hated Madonna. I was more humorless then. i was writing about how tight and firm her casearian scar was in 1999. some things never change.

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:22 (twenty years ago)

I agree with his "Burning Flame" review. I never understood how anyone could like that song. That singer had a wet rag of a voice. The worst!

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:24 (twenty years ago)

wasn't "like a prayer" his top single of the 80s? top ten at least.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:25 (twenty years ago)

'85 still, I think; diff't col:

Chip E. Inc. featuring K. Joy: "Like This" (DJ International)
Hated this thing at first because it was such a blatant rip-off of "Moody" by terminally wonderful ESG, Bronx girlhood's answer to Public Image Ltd. Now I'm just pissed that I didn't think of it first. "Like This" is an exquisite post-disco dance record. Like ESG, this group trims its pop funk down to the basics: simple, repetitive bass and drums and lyris that reduce themselves to mantras. "Like This" adds some garden-variety sound effects, but both songs bounce on that same economical bass line. In fact, K. Joy's vocals are so anonymous that after a few listenings, you don't even notice them; they fade into the background with the stuttering tape cliches. Which is a good thing. "Moody" is a much better song, but hell, that's like slagging Husker Du 'cause they're not the Sex Pistols.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:27 (twenty years ago)

Graham Parker and the Shot: "Wake Up (Next to You)" (Elektra)
Standing a scant seven inches tall and not packing enough funk to shake an ant's ass, this unassuming little single qualifies as a guilty pleasure I gotta share with somebody. After digging his own grave with his overwrought and unsustainable angry young man image, GP lightens up with some wallpaper AOR soul about adult domestic bliss. Hey, I said it was a guilty pleasure. The hook is that Parker's lifeblood has always been slutry rhythm and blues, which even in the gentle treatment doesn't give up its claws. Call it a soft flame, like the Temptations' "Just My Imagination." It may not be loud, but that backbeat is right there. Those who dismiss this as pap don't realize that it's really cool pap.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:31 (twenty years ago)

people really liked husker du in the 80's.

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:31 (twenty years ago)

same col as GP:

The Jesus and Mary Chain: "Never Understand" b/w "Suck" & "Ambition" (Blanco y Negro/Warner import)
All rise and hail the Emperor's latest set of threads, the Jesus and Mary Chain, currently the liveliest buzz in Albion. The Chain rings England's chimes with light surf pop tunes that bounce along under a layer of grating guitar noise. Sort of like when the dentist's drill obscures the Muzak; the noise bears no relation to the other elements of the song. The effect is striking, but it has no depth and doesn't go anywhere after the first few seconds. In Husker Du's music, the buzzing guitar and pop hooks enhance one another; Jesus and Mary Chain never puts the two together. Yo, Emp, I hate to tell you, but . . . .

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:33 (twenty years ago)

Husker Du remain fucking great, btw.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:34 (twenty years ago)

people really really liked husker du in the 80's.

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:35 (twenty years ago)

my fave 'the shins could be your life' target yet (scott dig this)

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:39 (twenty years ago)

from '87 I think:

Kronos Quartet: "Purple Haze" (Elektra)
This novelty record is just what it sounds like: a string quartet doing Hendrix's "Purple Haze." Not the most promising idea--at this point, who's going to be surprised that classical musicians grew up on rock?--and the Kronos crew starts off bound for the Penguin Cafe Orchestra's bland hipness. Until the guitar solo. Or in this case, the violin solo. The center disintegrates, the joke elevates, and the record becomes less an excuse than a translation. At this point, who's going to expect classical musicians to play a Hendrix solo note for note? When they leave behind the song and the pronounced beat, the quartet actually rocks. Even if it is still a dumb idea. Like frozen margaritas, a valid asset of yuppie culture.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:40 (twenty years ago)

I'll stop this now. Sorry for the major thread hijack.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:40 (twenty years ago)

matos scan em and email to me plz

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:41 (twenty years ago)

no scanner, sorry. email me yr address and I'll photocopy 'em off.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:42 (twenty years ago)

"My fantasy. A million heads wigging out, blissed out, in rock noise. A soulboy's bad dream. Style, rhetoric, tassled loafers, import 12-inches, blown, scattered to the winds. A million heads, lost in music, in worship. The return of ROCK."

YOU GO, SIMON!!!!!!!!

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:44 (twenty years ago)

o my

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:45 (twenty years ago)

yo m, i will send you an sase or something for same if you could do it

[edited via request.]

"the return of ROCK"

strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:59 (twenty years ago)

I had no idea people knew who the fuck the Penguin Cafe Orchestra were in the 80s, much less considered hip, much MUCH less them being "bland hipness".. haha. (I absolutely adore the PCO)

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:04 (twenty years ago)


My fantasy. A million heads wigging out, blissed out, in rock noise. A soulboy's bad dream.

Style, rhetoric, tassled loafers, import 12-inches, blown, scattered to the winds.

A million heads, lost in music, in worship. The return of ROCK.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:06 (twenty years ago)

blount u r nawty

strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:07 (twenty years ago)

What's highly ironic is the font there for "Disco Sucks" (and also, without surprise, the font used on AC/DC's Powerage from a couple of years before that record burning) has since been used by techno bands today..

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:12 (twenty years ago)

I love the PCO too, but it was the quality of the prose I was pointing up.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:45 (twenty years ago)

and the ideas, which is more to the point, I think. even when I disagree w/specifics, he's fearsomely smart and not afraid to show it. I wish I saw more of that (I wish I had more of it).

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:50 (twenty years ago)

Well, I guess people in the 80s hated Steely Dan too. I first heard of Steely Dan by hearing them used as punchlines by comedians on TV!

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:51 (twenty years ago)

(no worries, M, I gotcha)

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 02:51 (twenty years ago)

Ha, Matos, that was a worthwhile hijack -- kind of faith-restoring to read something that answers to so many of the complaints up in here. (Also worthwhile to see Blount put "Louis Menand" in scare-quotes, as if unconvinced of any extant person behind the prose.) I once wasted loads of time on ILM talking about how indie-slop values = wanting to hear people working and struggling against the process of making music -- and that "Temporary Music" piece did it shorter and cleaner and more broadly and over a decade in advance.

nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:36 (twenty years ago)

this guy is amazing. funny, i was reading spin back in those years, but i don't remember him at all - in fact i don't remember any of the writing, i guess i wasn't engaged by rockcrit yet. (i do remember tearing a jesus & mary chain photo out of the mag and tacking it on my wall, though, so there you go.)

philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:22 (twenty years ago)

Why do people need music writing to be a consumer guide? The internet exists. Go and listen to the bloody music yourself and make up your own mind.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:44 (twenty years ago)

Of course music writing attracts SOME (maybe a lot?) of people whose primary interest isn't in the "writing" part. But doesn't journalism in general/non-ficiton writing tend to attract people with an overriding interest in some specific area AS WELL AS a strong motivation to write well? (As opposed to the academic novelist's obsessive devotion to "writing for its own sake.") Striking a balance bewteen the two approaches is tricky, and that tension is what makes music writing in particular so challenging and so enjoyable when it's done well.

When I started editing music reviews and features in the early 90s, after writing 'em for ten-plus years, I was struck by the emergence of some music journalists whose primary interest appeared to be neither music nor writing. Not that they didn't care about music (or good writing) more like they just weren't totally GEEKED OUT about it, as though they were smart young people who wanted a career in journalism and thought "hey writing about music would be more interesting than covering the police beat or the financial scene."

It's probably different now w/the internet etc is the feeling I get.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 10:35 (twenty years ago)

Why do people need music writing to be a consumer guide? The internet exists. Go and listen to the bloody music yourself and make up your own mind.

The sheer volume of music available dictates that artists would still need to be championed by tastemakers in order to be noticed.

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:11 (twenty years ago)

Is that the same John Leland who wrote Hip: The History? I sorta liked that book, but that first singles column is really great!

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:14 (twenty years ago)

That's a statement so knee-jerk and boneheaded it could only have come from a blogger. I'll have a more detailed response later.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:15 (twenty years ago)

Miccio OTMx100. The only problem (I tried to raise that point earlier) is the toll that this mission takes on the writer: it's hard to work as an industry data filter. You burn out or start writing about skid marks.

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I'm not saying independent data filters are perfect. I'm just saying their still serving a purpose despite the 'availability' of music.

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)

they're, even

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)

but then I'm not sure what kind of criticism ISN'T a consumer guide.

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:23 (twenty years ago)

(actually, i meant the second singles column from leland, but the first is good, too.)

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

but then I'm not sure what kind of criticism ISN'T a consumer guide.

Well, if we look at film writing, it officially falls into two categories: one that assumes that you haven't seen the film yet - "reviewing" - and one that assumes you have - "criticism." It's harder with music because there's no real body of academic work (on the level of Eisenstein, Basin, Lacan, Laura Mulvey etc.) to prop up the second kind.

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

Bazin, sorry

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

...And the oft-cited problem with Pitchfork/Stylus/Voice-style music reviews is that they want to behave like the film critisim of the second kind - and when readers want them to be consumer guides, they condescend. That's why I love Frere-Jones's New Yorker pieces so much. He assumes the reader is an intelligent, perceptive being who happens to have absolutely no idea what S F-J is talking about.

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

that last point completely OTM. I feel that way about most of the Leland above, only he's writing for a more insider-y audience, but still doesn't condescend to it.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

yes.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:37 (twenty years ago)

It's a bit more indirect -- and I try and make no great claims here! -- but one of the coolest comments I ever received on my music writing, from an admittedly biased source, was my dad -- referring to my AMG work, he said, "Well, I don't know any of these bands, but when I read your reviews I really get the feeling of what they're like." That made me quite merry!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

I guess I can see the diff, but if you read "criticism" and haven't experienced the work it does become a "review" to a degree. You learn about the qualities the work has that fascinate the critic, decide whether its worth experiencing for yourself. It would seem that unless a piece is ONLY worthwhile if you've experienced the work (which would seem hard to pull off) or ONLY worthwhile if you haven't (which would require the information is presented in a truly artless only-covering-the-obvious fashion) the line is pretty blurred.

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

As I said: here's the internet. Music can be downloaded and listened to. ILM exists, and contributors can alert other contributors to interesting new music. Therefore there is no requirement for consumer guide-style writing about music, except for solvent retards too idle to go out and do things and find out things for themselves.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 05:12 (twenty years ago)

Thank goodness I am not a music writer.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 05:13 (twenty years ago)

haha that last miccio remark reminded me of the guy in metropolitan who only read literary criticism cuz that way he not only got the author's ideas but the critic's also: 2 for the price of one!

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 5 May 2005 05:52 (twenty years ago)

marcello otm - amazon + allmusic + dling + messageboards + the internet in general nevermind um gee radio and friends = consumer guides not "needed" anywhere remotely as much as they used to be. and yet it's the template for, what - 70% of printed music criticism? at the very least? there's a reason that people who know anything and care anything about music read more blogs than old media printmags.

also, people who want pitchfork to be a crisp, clear consumer's guide: you realise you're describing cmj right?

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 5 May 2005 05:58 (twenty years ago)

Marcello & Blount just hit the nail on the head. First there's so much MUSIC available on the internet now -- legally and ill -- that people can and do hear all kinds of stuff BEFORE they read about it.

Think of IM's awesome and exhaustive 1981 collection. Heck in 1981 only a handfull of people in the world -- critics recordstore owners & rich collectors -- would've had access to half of that. Even for an old fart like me, the last couple years have been incredible in terms of new music discovered/old music unearthed via the computer. And I think this creates a huge demand for more music WRITING, more information and ideas and cockeyed theories, we need to sort out all these sounds. And as Blount suggests, people tend to get their information from multiple sources now, everything from traditional MSM to blogs and the web's coolest message board. The days of brand-name loyalty to a single print magazine -- whether it's Spin for the indie cred Blender for the babes or Rolling Stone cause you've subscribed since college -- are fading fast if not over already.

In the words of the poet: We created it, so let's take it over.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Thursday, 5 May 2005 09:30 (twenty years ago)

You know where I have learned a lot about music on the internet? Ebay! And Amazon! And Forced Exposure catalogs! And, needless to say, AMG.

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:31 (twenty years ago)

couldn't the statement in the title refer to those who simply want free cds, or to meet rockstars? they are many.

I presumed Nabisco was taking it to mean that most music writers are more into music than writing.

I DO think that that has a certain truth to it aswell, there's no point becoming a music writer just because you like music, but not writing!

Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:52 (twenty years ago)

I mean surely a good lot of bad music writing is bad because the writer simply isn't logical with their flow of thoughts, or is just a bad writer, lack of interest/ability in writing is ALWAYS a bigger problem, does anyone write about music who can be accused of not having any interest in it? or if they did would it really be as big a problem as someone being just an unentertaining writer?

Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:54 (twenty years ago)

This is ILM bubble-thinking. Lots of people don't have a high-speed internet connection. (I don't.) Lots of people don't have computers. But they still buy records. The number of people who download music vs. the number of people who don't, but who buy tons of records, is still hugely tilted in the direction of the latter. And think about this: if you're a "professional" music writer, you are part of the market economy of the music industry. You have a vested interest in doing whatever's necessary to keep the music biz going, because you get paid to write about its products. Now, you can do that in whatever way you like, but you should probably give the largest number of readers the largest amount of valuable information, because that's how you stay a viable part of the market. If music magazines don't tell you something you need/want to read about music, you're gonna stop reading them. Once you stop being a consumer guide on at least some level, you've rendered yourself irrelevant to a vast hunk of potential readers. You can condescend to those readers all you like ("make up your own bloody mind"), but they exist, and they want something to read. If it's not you, it'll be someone else. My thinking is, if the other folks here (I omit Marcello from this) feel like doing what they do for free all the time, good for them. I don't. Remember the words of Samuel Johnson: "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." Don't be so quick to sink the boat you're floating in.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:58 (twenty years ago)

"Lots of people don't have computers"

Yeah, but you know what, lots of people do. I don't think anyone is sinking any boats. speaking for myself, I love writing for money, i don't give a shit what happens to the music industry, and i think there is plenty of room for print journalism and on-line journalism.

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

that's so OTM it hurts!


**if you're a "professional" music writer, you are part of the market economy of the music industry. You have a vested interest in doing whatever's necessary to keep the music biz going**

these days, that's quite a double-edged sword. another vintage quote: you're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

**Don't be so quick to sink the boat you're floating in.**

COME ON IN, THE WATER'S FINE!

m coleman (lovebug starski), Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:22 (twenty years ago)

Vested interest trolling: C/D?

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

Fortunately I am not a music writer, professional or otherwise, so you were right to omit me from this scenario.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

I disagree with you, therefore I'm a troll. How very, very internet.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

Fortunately for everyone, I think.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

COME ON IN, THE WATER'S FINE!

*scrounges*

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.

---

Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.
Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.

Learn to swim.

Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
suck it down.
flush it down.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

No, it's just that we keep getting people like you coming onto threads like these; tenth rate hacks scared of the bailiffs hanging on with their buck teeth to their meagre-paid freelance "careers" and expressing jealously at the work of people who have achieved more and reached more people than you will ever do.

I don't write for you, for the market, for other critics or for tortured monkeys in hell such as yourself; I write for myself and hope that potential readers will connect, emotionally or otherwise, with the thoughts I express. I mean, I could bang on about my book deal, how many hits Koons gets a day, or even how many hits Church of Me still gets every day, 18 months after I stopped writing there - but that's not really the point. Doing things because you enjoy them. Money not being your god. That's more the point. Or even writing to live, as opposed to writing for a living. I'm not doing any blogging at the moment, but if/when I restart, I'd still do it if nobody read it. Some of us are funny that way.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

Writing for money doesn't mean not caring about what you write about. Writing for free doesn't make you morally superior. (What is "Koons"? I'm familiar with Jeff Koons; are you him?) I object to your snobbery about a) people who write for pay, and b) people who want someone to tell them a bit about a record before they buy it. Like I said, not everyone has a high-speed internet connection, or endless hours to spend downloading and sifting. Some folks need a filter. I'm happy to help out. But you called your blog "Church Of Me," so you'll never understand any of this. I really wonder how much you even "hope that potential readers will connect, emotionally or otherwise, with the thoughts I express." I get the feeling that if there was no internet, you'd be writing at the exact same length, on the exact same subjects, but it'd be in your own feces, on the walls of your bedroom.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

The writhing spectacle of the tortured monkey in hell is indeed a pitiable one.

Do you even understand why I called my first blog The Church Of Me? Do you understand even who the "Me" is in The Church Of Me? Perhaps you ought to try reading it before revelling in your gleeful asinine bovinity.

I don't actually have to hope about readers connecting. I have concrete and continuing proof that they do. Some of the greatest writers and musicians in the world among their number. And it's going to be published. I have a book deal. Do you have a book deal?

How much money did you make last year?

Now slope back to your creaking Wordstar Database and knock out 150 words on the Killers' searing guitar riffs. There's a good boy.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

I stopped by your blog a few times. Never had the patience to make it through a whole one of your endless posts, though.

>Do you have a book deal?

My second book is coming out in November, and I'm dropping my third off to my agent on Tuesday.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

Never had the patience to make it through a whole one of your endless posts, though.

Well that's a shame. Never mind! There are thousands of other blogs and magazines out there which will be extremely willing to agree with you and tell you what you already know! Happy reading!

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

When is your book coming out Marcello?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

October.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

I think this thread needs 1,000 photos of kids at the back ends of buses.

Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

SIT UP STRAIGHT AT THE BACK OF THE BUS

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

I'd rather more Tool lyrics and graphics for I am an art metal goth. Except in appearance. Cause it gets hot around here and black can be a problem.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:05 (twenty years ago)

in part, i agree with what you're saying; the music writers i've loved the most, some of whom are colleagues and some of whom i've discussed this with at great length, are primarily writers, or equally obsessed with both writing and the music itself. for me, this is better than the 'nerdy' music obsessive writer, not just because i like writers with a flair for the form, for language, but because music itself is so much more than just sound. and the best writers, for me, are the ones who can make a profound connection between the music and everything around it, make the personal universal and vice versa. if your focus is primarly on the music in of itself, it seems to me those connections would be more difficult to make, or at least convincingly.


It's this last bit that's the most interesting to me. Personally, I don't whole-heartedly agree with it, but I think it absolutely applies to anyone who *first* gets into music via written pieces about music. I never really cared how "well" the music article was written when I was an adolescent. I just wanted to read about my favorite band! The more words, the better.. period. This POV will vary greatly from person to person, but I feel confident my first experiences aren't that different than those of most.

that's true, at first. but even early on my reading of the press, there were writers whose turn of phrase i loved, who made me laugh, whose pieces held me rigid and riveted - as a teenaged pearl jam fan, i'd read lots of vedder interviews, but allan jones' pieces on the road with the band 94-95 were amazing *writing, and i knew that, even then.

stevie (stevie), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:10 (twenty years ago)

Ned, how about photographs of buses full of goth kids wearing all black holding paper boards full of scrawled Tool lyrics?

Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:11 (twenty years ago)

This is ILM bubble-thinking. Lots of people don't have a high-speed internet connection. (I don't.)

Re: that, & other choice pdf tidbits (from yours truly, a 10th-rate-hack that you know whats):

1) Many college campuses have high-speed Internet connections built into dormitories, & college kids (a large demographic, no doubt) presumably consume tons of music, either through the old analog model of trading money for goods, or grabbing it on the DL / SLSK.
2) Internet access (of the high speed variety) is becoming more commonplace, as providers infiltrate previously non-wired areas, and the service becomes more affordable.
3) Just because lots of people don't have high-speed access or computers doesn't mean you get to conveniently forget that "lots" DO have these things when you're on the ad-hominem offensive.
4) If music journalists / consumer guiders are truly "vested [...] in doing whatever's necessary to keep the music biz going", then either a) it's amazing the music industry has managed to survive as long as it has or b) maybe the music industry can actually survive with a myriad of writers following their own particular muses! Holy shit I think I just said there's more than one way to skin a cat!
5) There's something to be said about the non-music-geek & their interest in reading informative consumer-focused writing about music (noting, of course, that ANY AND ALL writing is consumer-focused, regardless of the size of the pool of consumers) (and also noting that the 12 CD fucker can a "music geek" as much as the 5000-CD hording type), but fuck if being a condescending rude Kruschevian (sic) shoe-banging asshat about it is the best way to kick off that topic of discussion.
6) Really, if you want to have a discussion about this, by all means, break off some of that shoulder chip & go for it - if you want to just piss folks off and rant about What You Think And Why It Is Right w/out engaging in the damn conversation, go post it on your blog.

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

Ned, how about photographs of buses full of goth kids wearing all black holding paper boards full of scrawled Tool lyrics?

How the Other Tool Half Lives by Ned Riis

Arguably most of my writing has been consumer-blurb style via the AMG. But you know, I try and make what I do write there interesting as well as informative, and if someone sneers because it's too short or something, that's their problem, not mine. You get an opinion, you often get sound clips -- how much handier can it be?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

Ned, stop being so damn reasonable and HONOUR THE F-CKING FIRE!

*pic of Jaz ROFLING in jester cap X 10*

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)


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