Slayer seems like the only speed/thrash/metal band to survive the 80s without sounding dated

I don't understand how metal music went "Out of Wack" in the '80s. I can understand if it was dark and hard and mysterious, but who decided to put screaming and growling in it.

It's like someone said "Hey, let's make a band like Black Sabbath but fuck the shit out of it and make it so you can't understand us."

Metal music just turned to shit in the '80s.

Wow, I didn't know Ozzy posted on ILM!

Celtic Frost, eh? I'll have to listen to them right... NOW! Thanks, I forgot they existed. Celtic Frost isn't very catchy, though... and Mexican Radio def. sounds dated ;-) ... Actually, I think they sound a bit dated in general, but we'll see when I listen to it again.

How is screaming and growling not dark and hard? It is also alot of fun and that way anyone can be the vocalist. (Which made things easier for small town teenage metal bands playing shows in their friend's basement)

As for metal going downhill; I don't just blame Slayer. It was already starting to suck before Slayer got there. They just helped make it worse, that's all.

And I don't buy the anything-can-do-it argument at all. Didn't work for punk, either. Having a suck-ass band might be "fun" for the people in the band and their friends who don't mind their suckage, but what that has to do with my own listening I have no idea.

???

???

seconded - are there any thrash bands left at all, besides maybe Kreator and Exodus?

seems like the production is similar on danzig's first - really dry and kind of hollow - but it works better there.

Get one *Decibel.*

Thing is, if nobody sounds like Slayer anymore (and okay, obviously, nobody sounds *exactly* like Slayer. Nobody sounds exactly like Anthrax or Megadeth or any other old band you can name either), how does that *not* make Slayer dated (by your defintion)?

Also, I'm curious about this: How exactly are Lamb of God or Shadows Fall (or Mastodon, or the countless bands doing basically the same thing those bands do only worse), more "hardcore" than "thrash"? They sound no more like Black Flag or the Circle Jerks than Slayer or Metallica did 20 years ago. I don't get that at all.

By "anti-aesthetcicism," Siegbran, do you mean you think the bands after Slayer were less arty than the ones before? If so, I have no idea why you'd think that, either. How are Slayer-influenced bands inherently less arty (less pretentious, whatever) than, say, AC/DC-influenced or Nazareth-influenced or Sabbath-influenced or Zep-influenced or Hanoi Rocks-influenced bands? As often as not, I hear exactly the opposite. But I dunno, maybe you mean something else by that word.

Slayer had some artful lyrics:

Raining blood
From a lacerated sky
Bleeding it’s horror

And some cool groovey mid-tempo switches that make them stand out just as much as the rest of their sound really stands out from the crowd.

"Hardcore" in the sense that metal bands use it presently, not in a retro/original-meaning-of-hawdkawuh sense - I didn't & don't mean any down-the-nose-lookin' correction, was just finding the particular area of bands that you're aligning with thrash.

Mastodon is kinda in their own ballpark and it seems rather baby-with-bathwater to lump them in with Shadows Fall, but to each, etc

however, I still don't hear anybody in the field who really sounds like any of the eighties thrash metal bands, like, at all, except for the eighties thrash bands that're still working: certainly if you A-B Lamb of God & any thrash band you care to name, you'll hear more differences than similarities

speed-metal, death-metal, black metal, dark metal, mosh-metal, puke-metal, shit-metal, grindcore, etc...like I said, zillions of bands. All of whom descend from thrash in the same way that Slayer or Iron Maiden (neither of whom sound particularly like Black Sabbath) descend from heavy metal. And of course the fact that Slayer and Iron Maiden don't sound exactly like Sabbath doesn't prevent anybody from calling them "heavy metal" bands, right?

>a couple of the zillion was reduced to one<

*Decibel* isn't a band; it's a magazine containing zillions of bands, 99 percent of whom sure sound a hell of a lot more like Slayer than they sound like, say, White Lion. Which isn't to say (and I never did say) "they all sound alike." But way more of them sound like each other than sound remotely distinctive. (I *like* the magazine, by the way. And I also like a lot of the music it covers.)

That's not what I said, reworder of practically E Prime sentences.

yeah, i hate when metal does this. NOT!

Not arty (I don't think that post-Slayer metal is any more or less arty than before), but more in the sense that the focus shifted from playing to bring kickass rocking tunes you could bang your head to, to totally, singlemindedly ugly, brutal, violent music, purged of everything beautiful - think of how Slayer threw in chromatic whammy-bar chaos where others till did grandiose neo-classical guitar solos, the deliberately unpleasant growling/screaming/snarling vocals that came instead of the King Diamonds and Bruce Dickinsons of trad metal, the ultrafast chromatic riffing instead of huge stadium riffs (just compare a riff like "For Whom The Bell Tolls" with the opener of "Angel Of Death"). With Slayer, metal wholeheartedly chose to celebrate the dark side in man, ugly, grim, violent, hateful, raw. Not only lyrically talking the talk, but musically walking the walk - instead of singing about death and evil over souped-up stadium rock, actually "sounding totally necro" became the holy grail of metal.

(if that makes any sense, I wish my English was better)

I kind of prefer angry devil music to angry real-life problems music because it makes it more of an escapist pleasure.

I think the escapist/larger than life angle is one of the core values of metal and probably THE main divider between hardcore and metal, far more than riffing techniques, vocals, hair length, etc where so many seem to focus on.

Sometimes when bands are screaming away about the Gods, I could almost swear I feel a thrill of sci-fi and the music seems to become visual entertainment or a semi-dream state of mythical visions. Most other music doesn't do that. Something about guitars can sound like lasers and cosmic rays.

I never thought of the Slayer record as particularly innovative though? Just tidier and more powerful than the rest of the Bathoryites. Have I got my release dates mixed up or something, cos I always saw Slayer as a step back from the direction of Bathory, but a nicely executed step back.

People always recommend Bathory to me, but I think when I've downloaded a song here or there it's always the wrong stuff. I'm not too familiar with 'em. I'm not trying to Slayer is the be all end all, either. They might not sound as dated to me as other stuff, but my favorite music is 60s and 70s psyche, so I don't mind dated sounds. But, for speed/thrash, that dated sound tends to suck (Megadeth, Anthrax, Overkill, Exodus are just a few that come to mind).

yes! there's an album you can actually attribute slayer-esque characteristics to. it's real good, besides. inferno sounds pretty much the same, just downtuned and sludgy and with some truly inane lyrics.

Have I got my release dates mixed up or something, cos I always saw Slayer as a step back from the direction of Bathory, but a nicely executed step back.

slayer show no mercy, december 1983. bathory bathory, october 1984. i'd argue that reign in blood is probably more 'classic' than anything bathory ever did, though, as per siegbran's comments above.

Hence, the silly "evil" shtick became all that mattered (Which is one reason that, as "violent" as the routine became, the resulting music usually didn't rock half as hard as what came before. Beauty can *help* you rock.) (But Siegbran knows we disagree on this. And I really do enjoy how well he states his case.)

was kill em all really as late as 83? how long was no life til leather getting passed around before that? how come kill em all doesn't have a better rep?

It *is* a step back from the Venom/Bathory "The Return"/Slayer "Black Magic" uncontrolled messy evil sound (or, "getting the most out of basement 4-track recording quality") that over the years evolved into modern black metal. However "Reign in Blood" was very innovative for death metal - replace Araya's vocals with a lower growl, add more reverb and you basically have the standard DM template all the way up to today - the drums, percussive riffing, the solos, groove, lyrical themes, etc. Possessed might've been first to define DM proper with "Seven Churches", but the real catalyst for the years that followed was undoubtedly RiB. Just ask Sepultura ("Beneath The Remains" is probably THE ultimate Slayer-influenced thrash/death metal album, strange that it hasn't been mentioned on this thread before).

the silly "evil" shtick became all that mattered

But that's the good part - the bands started engaging the lyrical themes on a more fundamental level: "what if this evil stuff were really true - what would be the music to go with it" and began developing real evil *music* rather than keeping an ironic distance and treating it as a big joke and approaching the evilness from an ironic distance. It's that relentless search for the essence of evil in music that makes modern metal so interesting and rewarding - death metal searched it through controlled brutality/nihilism, black metal through primal rage and hate, but both succeeded in celebrating the dark side in man.

I think explorations of the hellish realms are very much a concern in all art forms. It can be schticky or schlocky, or even a little meshuggeneh. I mean, from a certain angle even Milton is a bit comical.

However the fact remains that it's not a new development in either music or the arts. Metal these days has a much clearer understanding of what evil actually sounds like, as Siegbran says, than it did in the 70's. Evil sounded sort of glamorous back then, still in the garden of earthly delights, and it's true that glamour is a big part of evil. Metal in the 70's played with a sort of 'come hither' kind of evil; subsequently it became a 'haha I got you sucker' kind of evil, which is a natural Boschian progression. If I were a Buddhist teacher I would use black metal as the sound track to my explanation of the realm of hell. It's perfect really. These bands should be congratulated for enriching our conception of modern hell. What a load of shit I'm talking.

That was not a load of shit. That was as well put as Siegbran's comments. I wish I could formulate such thoughts or at least take the time to think through something before I start typing. But, anyway, your words along with Siegbran's helped me clarify my own thoughts on evil in music.

Anton LaVey once said that Slayer wasn't Satanic but Nine Inch Nails was. Trent did seem to have a serious interest in Satan around this time. What a douche. I imagine LaVey said that because there was nothing attractive about Slayer in that 'come hither' kind of way you describe. If you check out LaVey's own music, it is very deliberately trying to sound sinisterly seductive, very much like Mr. Bungle's first album.

Which reminds me, I dug out Mr. Bungle's first album and I love it now! In fact, I've been spending all day making a list of the things I need, after hearing several mp3 samples:

John Zorn/Naked City, Naked City/Torture Garden, Painkiller/Execution Ground, Mr. Bungle/Disco Volante/California, Fantomas/Director's Cut/the new cartoon one with limited edition packaging, Secret Chiefs 3.

All of this inspired by Slayer and, this particular goose chase inspired by Dave Lombardo's drumming. I could not be happier. I'd heard of Zorn in relation to Bill Laswell before but didn't know much about him. Now I see he is much more interesting and this Mr. Bungle/Mike Patton shit is what I've been looking for in Laswell/Buckethead projects all along (no offense to either-- I still enjoy both).

Thanks for the info, btw!

Unfortunate Prankster, without bringing out the hammer of fire wielded by the RIAA cops, let me know what you want from the albums you mentioned, and I would be glad to (ahem) point you in the right direction (ahem) to where you could find free mp3s of these various things that you mention via prehaps emails sent to your gmail account. My email below is accurate, if that will help to keep the thread on track...

BTW, live Painkiller is (was?) unbelievably good. Albums not quite on par with live, but still worthwhile...

I guess the Painkiller box is the way to go, but I read that it only has 7 more songs than all the original albums combined, so if Norman's Sound + Vision has them all for cheap, I might just buy them separately due to impatience.

Would you say Zorn "Naked City" is better or Naked City "Torture Garden"? That'll help me out as I plan to get either/or today.

As for the "evil" thing, I dunno. It just doesn't matter to me that much, especially if your music (or, in most cases in this genre), your lack thereof turns it into a cartoon. None of this music really *convinces* me it's evil. Slayer made for way less convincing devil worshippers than, say, Roky Erickson ever did. (Though why I prefer Roky has more to do with his riffs. And hooks. And singing. And yeah, groove. None of which Slayer have ever been able to hold a candle to.)

If you read carefully, the subject of groove was actually brought up in comparison specifically to "bands that sound like Slayer." Now don't you feel silly?

oh sorry, got carried away there for a moment.

NOTHING in common?....I mean, they have their differences, but in the scheme of music from like free jazz to skiffle to classical or whatever, they're not THAT different...

Chuck, respect to you, you've been writing about & thinking about this stuff longer than most e'erbody here or elsewhere, but can you please talk about musics you're not into without getting condescending like this? That you don't feel any particular groove in death metal generally speaking, or in proto-death Slayer, doesn't mean there's no groove, just that it's not a groove that moves you. Plenty of trad-jazz heads didn't hear any groove at all in late Coltrane; does that mean there wasn't one? Honestly.

1. Generally what seems to be missing from the snarling death/thrash is groove. And groove is something of which Slayer has plenty. There are a lot of little things Slayer has that nobody else really has.

2. So OTM that it isn't even funny. Slayer is the funkiest thrash band ever. (P.S. The only way to exit this argument is going piece by piece.)

So should I follow every post that's obviously my opinion with "This is only my opinion, of course"? (Should people who don't hear a groove in Anthrax or Nickelback or Celine Dion do the same thing? In fact, how about if everybody who posts *any* opinion on ILM follows up with "This is only my opinion, of course", just so nobody thinks they're stating unarguable facts? That'd be wonderful, wouldn't it?)

>compared to what? To most death-metal dorks, well maybe. But to most of the rest of the rock planet? Hardly<

How does this *not* have have anything to do with people suggesting Slayer have a better groove than Slayer-influenced bands? Want me to rephase it? Okay then: Isn't praising Slayer for having a better groove than Slayer-influenced bands sort of like praising Bryan Adams for having more Lightning Bolt in him than John Waite? (Which he does, especially when he takes dumpster solos, but you get my drift.)

oh pooh-pooh, you know very well that had nothing to do with what I was saying

That would be great in cases like this when someone gets overly excited about an opinion or a (mis)perception. Otherwise, it does quite come across as "I'm right, you're wrong."

I have honestly never heard all that much of a "groove" in Slayer (or Pantera, the other thrashy band that get accused of having one), to be honest. But maybe that's because I've spent so much time listening to '70s hard rock, where a groove was taken for granted; compared to just about any pre-'80s hard rock, Slayer sound pretty darn rigid to my ears.

...and your terminology suggests less "I don't hear it" than "the breadth of my listening allows me to discern the Geniune Groove from the False," hence my trad-jazz comparison: my complaint is that the ground for what you're saying appears to be "sure, you can say Slayer has a groove...if you don't know what groove is," which is bologna. How else can one read the above paragraph than thus: "I came up in a time when folks knew groove, and there was loads of it; I can see how a groove-deprived listener might hear one in Slayer," and how is that anything but dictating one's tastes from on high?

xp

As a matter of fact, what I say above says *flat out* that I may be listening with different ears than other Slayer fans, that they may hear something I don't. I also talk about Slayer-era and post-Slayer thrash bands who I think have a *better* groove than Slayer; I'm not just saying old stuff has a better groove. And where do I say one mode of listening is superior to another? All over this thread, when people talk about how music sounds to them, I assume the "to them" part is understood. And I don't assume they are talking from a high horse. But again, I'll phrase my question differently, in what you'll maybe consider a more evenhanded way: Do listeners who believe Slayer have a great groove *not* hear a way better groove in, I dunno, AC/DC or Nazareth or '70s Aerosmith or Black Sabbath or Uriah Heep or Black Oak Arkansas? If not, can they explain why? It's not that I don't *want* to hear a great groove in Slayer; I just don't hear one, period. And, to me anyway, some types of music sound more rhythmically rigid than other music. We might not agree on what they *are*, but I doubt anyone here would say all kinds of music are equal groovwise. How is it offensive to conjecture about which musics might be more stiff? To me, death metal would be one of the stiffer musics. (So would '90s indie rock, for instance.) Why is that off-limits to talk about? To me, it seems completely germane to the discussion.

>Your argument here appears to be: "Groove? What groove?":<

That is indeed my argument. And I guess what I'm wondering, Banana, is do you *ever* think that would be a valid argument? If somebody told you that, I don't know, Matchbox 20 have the best groove of any band on the radio, would "groove? what groove?" be a valid response? If it would be, how is Slayer different? My guess is that what might make them different is that your ears hear a groove in Slayer but not one in Matchbox 20 (or Dashboard Confessional, or the Bravery, or Kenny G, well...fill in some artist you hate, okay? I'm sure some exist...) Which is to say that, it seems to me the only people being dogmatic on this thread are people who think nobody should be allowed to hear Slayer differently than they do. Well, some people do!

certainly you hear it in the riffs though! No? Do you own any Slayer, Chuck? you should really try south of heaven again some time.

I don't, however, know how to describe where one locates the groove in Slayer. The breakdowns, I guess, are where I heard it first.

xpost...do I think "oh pshaw, there's no groove at all there" is ever a valid argument? not really - nor do I think characterizing that stance as the execrable "oh everything's just OPINION, there are no judgements possible" argument is at all fair.

xp

From my *Reign in Blood* review: "..as pure a clatter as any band that's ever called itself metal has produced; unfortunately, "purity";s got nothing to do with why real people listen to music. *RIB* does swing, sort of, but unlike Aerosmith (whose Steve Tyler helped inspired Tom Araya's throaty operatics), Slayer's got too much mega-complicated chord-and-tempo-transforming distortion to be 'funky.'"

I stand happily corrected!

This seems like you're asking the album to do something it wasn't designed to do. Slayer were clearly not making the same kind of music as Aerosmith, even if you thought at the time that you could hear Tyler in Araya. So why make that comparison at all? It seems like you're setting the band up to fail. If you don't like the record, fine, but come up with a legit reason to criticize it. Saying it fails to swing as hard as Aerosmith is like pointing at a cat and scoffing, "Ha ha, you've got no gills!"

x-post with Scott, of course.

Well, it's *one* reference point. Others might include Eurodisco, Afro-Caribbean, Kraut-rock, polkas, Appalachian jigs, Steve Reich, etc. (Oddly, I've never noticed much blues or boogie in Sabbath, who sound perfectly grooving to me regardless.) But yeah, obviously, there may well be grooves I just don't feel. (And to say I don't find Slayer or, say, Pavement notably rhythmic is not to suggest I think they have no rhythm at all. All music has a rhythm. Some music just moves me -- like everybody else who listens to music, including folks who hear a great groove in Slayer -- more than other music does.)

I never said real people don't like Slayer (my 13 year old kid likes Slayer, as I said above!); I said real people don't listen to music for how "pure" it is. Though of course, I was wrong -- Many do. (Even some really smart and articulate ones, like Siegbran for instance!)

Also, Anacrusis: How come nobody ever talks about them in these parts? They were great!

Not sure I buy this line, by the way, Scott, though I'd love to hear specifics (especially if the specifics actually have to do with how the music sounds, not just what bands claim in interviews.) Thing is, as much as I like how plenty of avant-classical stuff sounds in the background (just like I like how plenty of extreme-so-called metal sounds in the background), I can't say I can actually locate the groove in much avant-classical, either. So maybe that's the problem. But again, just 'cause I can't locate the groove doesn't necessarily mean I won't like it. (Heck, I may even be be subconsciously liking it for the groove, and just not *realize* that's why I like it, who knows? In general, though, I'd guess I like it for the beauty. Most extreme metal I like seems better at melodies than rhythms, to me.)

Skyclad. And Skyclad had groove, mostly when doing the Celtic thing.

Considering the hellish realms described by metal, groove is very important. When Demonaz (??) sings, 'I am a demon / a demon with a sallow face', mate, if he's not in the groove of that sentiment, he's going to look like a bit of a faker. actually, the reason Immortal can get away with such outrageous demonic posturing is because, well, we have to laugh and say they are totally confident with their schtick, and therefore it works. This is groove. The downside of all that is that, well, they're stuck in it. For all eternity, hahaha.

When applied to rhythm, as it usually is, a rhythm suitable to the hellish realms has to convey a hell being in his or her element: alert, sharp, confident, strong, and sort of blurry and untouchable (ie, not of this world, not too human).

I don't think Slayer really descend to the hell realms as a dreamworld or nightmare. their hell realm is the human one, eg of recent actual history. If they channel archetypes, it's not the primary intent. They are realists (hence their occasional nod to Satanism is sometimes dismissed as token, not an authentic belief), and their material is not particularly numinous, spiritual or dreamlike.

I.e., the death metal (nihilist) approach to evil as opposed to the black metal (romanticist) approach. Note that this was not yet the case on their first two albums.

Indeed, the only way for a metal band to convincingly pull off the evil angle is to back it up with impressive music. That's why a band like Cradle of Filth are universally rediculed and Immortal are much respected even when they're pretty much equally goofy lyrically/imagewise.

(Abbath is the singer, btw.)

A joke, right? I'll use the line in a record review: "Grave exhibit a child-like mastery over sexual pleasure..."

the reason Immortal can get away with such outrageous demonic posturing is because, well, we have to laugh and say they are totally confident with their schtick, and therefore it works. This is groove

Only when preaching to the converted.

When applied to rhythm...a rhythm suitable to the hellish realms has to convey a hell being in his or her element: alert, sharp, confident, strong, and sort of blurry and untouchable

Ha-ha. Tilt!

and their material is not particularly numinous,

I dunno. This thread has Slayer fans with it, empirically demonstrating and remonstrating the opposite.

http://www.backstreet-merch.com/stores/slayer/official_slayer_jumper_christmas-holidays-jumper_slay246.html

This product is currently unavailable

Fuck.

There's no real dedicated Slayer thread, is there? Anyway, thanks to unperson's amplification on social media, I finally read this interview with Kerry King, who remains true to his ethos while simultaneously disabusing me of any lingering suspicions he's anything but one of the good ones.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/kerry-king-slayer-idle-hands-from-hell-i-rise-1234951010

What inspired that lyric (to "Toxic")?

I wrote that right around the time that Roe vs. Wade went down. The biggest point I’d like to make in this interview is that every Supreme Court justice that got hired under Trump lied to get their job. A fucking judge lied to get his lifetime job. How fucked up is that? They overturned Roe vs. Wade because that’s why they were put there. It took me a long time to get over the fact that our Supreme Court justices lied. It shows up in numerous songs. It’s in “Toxic” and “Residue.”

“Rage” seems political, too. Mark sings, “Alternative facts for an alternative God.”

Remember when Trump left the White House to take a picture with a Bible in front of a church? “Rage” has a lyric about getting a baton to the face because Trump, this person that’s not as smart as the rest of us, has to go out and take a picture in front of a fucking church with a Bible. A lot of “Rage” is about that because the police in the streets looked like a Gestapo. I remember one where they pushed this 80-year-old man. He fell back and cracked his head.

I’m like, “How can you do that and sleep at night?” It’s like, “I’m Kerry King. I write the most fucked up words you’ll ever fucking hear from anybody, but I still feel for humanity.” I was so sad that day. I’m like, “How can you be a part of this and say it’s OK and tell the policeman that’s OK?” George Floyd, how can you tell me that’s OK? It’s not fucking OK. That’s our society.

Are you ready for November?

I’m ready to leave.

Do you worry about alienating fans of yours who like Trump by talking about this?

I think fans enjoy the music. I don’t think fans are that influenced by what I think politically, and they have their opinion, and I don’t try to talk them out of it. I state facts. If you like to believe it, good for you. If you don’t, stay in your hut.

man i should really check out these Slayer guys some day

Wait, what?

https://static.tixr.com/static/images/external/img/fa2eb2d2-47a9-4e7e-a5f7-f10238506d7c.jpg

yep. they've reunited for this and Louder Than Life. I would be amazed if they did a full-on gigantic tour based on what Araya has said in past but.....i wouldn't mind seeing the boys again (16 times wasn't enough)

"zillion other dime a dozen thrash bands out there these days"
???

"seconded - are there any thrash bands left at all, besides maybe Kreator and Exodus?"

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Sunday, May 29, 2005

haha! just wait a few years old people from the past! it turns out there will be 4 million nu-thrash bands and every thrash band that made as much as a demo in the 80s will reunite and go on tour again. the 21st century will hence be named "The Age of Thrash Again Only More and Sneakers will be Very Important and also what Patches You Have". i know. how could you know. but it happened like 5 minutes after this 2005 post.

Even back then you had loads of retro thrash/black thrash bands - Desaster, Gehennah, Aura Noir, Desekrator, Destroyer 666, Sabbat, The Crown, Ritual Carnage, Abigail, Impiety, Nifelheim, etc.