Boredoms "Vision Creation Newsun" is basically a Phish jam

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Discuss.

Or disgust.

I think it's pretty true. Check out the Siket disc, the tower jam, the second disc of LivePhish #4 and many others, but there's your start.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 01:51 (twenty years ago)

I roll a 12 and cast a spell to dissolve your 10 foot poles.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 01:59 (twenty years ago)

if i buy a phish disc and you are wrong i will be very disappointed

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:03 (twenty years ago)

Phish should experiment with trance, drum n bass, krautrock and proto-punk more.

They've got the "psychedelic" part down though, I guess.

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:06 (twenty years ago)

You can't just buy ANY Phish disc.

Phish does this as sort of "hey, crowd, you are on acid" filler and only once did they officially release a disc that was a big jam (Siket Disc).

So, definitley don't buy a phish disc. I guess you sort of have to be "in the know" to know which shows to download, but I'm telling you, Boredoms got nothing on Phish or Umphrey's McGee, too.

Well, they got a little something, I guess. Boredoms are cool in their own way. It's like this: Boredoms really tweaked VCN with studio gadgetry, etc. Phish just jams and does shit like that spontaneously live. They don't go back and edit it into one big piece of art.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:08 (twenty years ago)

mully, don't do it

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:10 (twenty years ago)

Live Phish #4 = trance
Umphrey's McGee does more of the trance & drum + bass sound...

but they both explode into death noise occasionally, which I associate with Kraut Rock. Phish has some ear-blistering noise at times and they can get more "rocking" than one might expect. The problem most people have is that they don't do it seriously, but just as another interesting sound and they might go right back into a little piano-driven driving ditty immediately after.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

If you know anyone who has the IT DVD, check out Disc 2. The whole thing. It is fucking AMAZING-- lots of jams just like VCN right in the middle of songs. COol light effects, too, so you can turn off all the lights in the house and crank the TV on acid or pot or something and really be satisfied. Very cool cinematography and GREAT jams!

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:13 (twenty years ago)

HA! I swear to god, I'm listening to VCN right now and I'm on...track 8 at 6:20 minute mark and I seriously thought I was listening to Phish. I have only had 4 beers. I guess with all the Phish talk, I just started thinking about Phish and it sounded enough like Phish to confuse me.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:17 (twenty years ago)

drink some water.

― latebloomer: Pain Don't Hurt (latebloomer), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:23 (twenty years ago)

I am not high, nor am I on any drug. Unless you call Corona Extra a drug, which it is. But, believe me now and hear me later... I'm right, etc.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:38 (twenty years ago)

once again... I don't know what I'm listening to. It sounds like Praxis. Hold on and let me check. ... It is Fantomas "Suspended Animation."

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:40 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Boredoms suck except for Super AE and Chocolate Synthesizer. I'm sorry, but all you haters got to ... well, nothing really. To each his own.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:48 (twenty years ago)

which is the live phish tape where they're improvising to a clip of beavis and butthead that's being played over the stadium PA?

― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:54 (twenty years ago)

dunno, not that in the know I guess.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:55 (twenty years ago)

Boredoms (& Jimmy Buffet!) on Phish tribute album

― Mike Dixn (Mike Dixon), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:56 (twenty years ago)

So Praxis sounds like Fantomas "Suspended Animation," which sounds like Boredoms' VCN, which sounds like Phish, only worse.

― sleep (sleep), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:57 (twenty years ago)

NO, Praxis is okay, Fantomas' "Suspended Animation" is quite great and Phish has a catalog of amazingness you can't deny, but VisionCreationNewsun is just "whatever, I've heard that shit before."

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:00 (twenty years ago)

OR WAIT-- yeah, you're right. :-)

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:02 (twenty years ago)

"They've got the "psychedelic" part down though, I guess."

um, no.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:05 (twenty years ago)

You know what's really great about Phish? They have ONE drummer who is like a fucking alien machine-- he can play the weirdest most perfect anything-- yet he is a humorous moron who plays the vacuum cleaner and sings out of key. And they have the most amazing guitarist, who can create any tone at the drop of a hat -- he's not the best singer, but he has passion. And they have this bass player who can pull the most amazing shit out of his geeky ass that is absolutely shocking, let alone lyrics that are about as unfriendly as you could imagine a hippy singing. And a pianist that truly listens to everyone else. And everyone else listens to each other. And they jam on a silly little psychich vibe they created years ago in college intentionally. That's why they can play in unison spontaneously.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:07 (twenty years ago)

Scott = not familiar enough with Phish, but probably will contest that to no end, but is not fooling people like me who know he is not familiar enough with Phish and if he drags out all these "proofs" and "qualifiers" we will think he is lying even more desperately and pathetically and we will tell him to go back to what he knows best, which is anything but Phish.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:09 (twenty years ago)

must...release...inner...monologue...

― Reggie, Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:14 (twenty years ago)

please do

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:16 (twenty years ago)

I don't see it...Phish is mostly irritating to me (but I love the "Junta" album). although parts of Super AE always make me think of Fleetwood Mac ( which makes me like it even more!). I'm dreading listening to VCN again now. I'm terrified it's true.

― django (django), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:18 (twenty years ago)

Phish is geeky enough to be annoying, but to people who aren't afraid of geeking out, it's the most freeing, awesome trip to geek out to.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:21 (twenty years ago)

it's not, django, not remotely. axilla part ii isn't a bad song, though.

― beta ray bill, Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:22 (twenty years ago)

Axilla II is cool, but it's really jack shit in the overall scheme of Phish. I'm listening to pscychedelic garage 60s dudes at the moment (Leaves, Bonniwell Music Machine, Seeds, Electric Prunes, etc. in a 4 disc set I'm making for my gal's dad) and I realize Phish just fuckin' rules. They are aware of practically everything I feel is an important musical achievement in the last 40 years. They do it all over again (not original, necessarily) in homage to the music that's been discovered, with their own twist. They really love music and they really love honest performances.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:27 (twenty years ago)

beta ray bill: what's not it?

They really love music and they really love honest performances.

Yeah. I've listened to Phish off and on since Junta. I'm usually impressed...but almost always bored. My attention always wanders with them. Not so with boredoms.

― django (django), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:51 (twenty years ago)

thwy are more boring than the boredoms for sure because they'll fuckin' take an hour if they feel like it to get to where they want to get... but that's live. Boredoms edit that shit into an album.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 03:53 (twenty years ago)

Can didn't need no hour to get where they wanted to get!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 2 June 2005 04:07 (twenty years ago)

no one told me aaron was back!

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 2 June 2005 04:28 (twenty years ago)

hw ian't - it's me, the guy that everyone seems to confuse with aaron and calum.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 04:29 (twenty years ago)

the boredoms cover of phish may be their greatest song ever.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 2 June 2005 04:38 (twenty years ago)

corona extra isn't a drug, it's a drink

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 2 June 2005 04:40 (twenty years ago)

RJG, I take back my smileyface.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 04:49 (twenty years ago)

(but not entirely) ;-) (and I give you a winky)

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 04:50 (twenty years ago)

is this a lurker from PT? And I'm resisting the urge to slag UmphMcGee (since I feel like I'm the only one here besides you that has seen them live). Anyway ...

There is NOTHING from Siket Disc, Tower Jam, Lemonwheel Set 5, any of the '94 Tweezers, or anything Phish has ever done that sounds remotely like the Boredoms. That being said, I think that all of those are effing fantastic and it kind of pains me that the non-phish crowd is so turned off to Phish b/c of their fans. I've slipped in Siket Disc to Phish-hating-Napalm-Death fans and they'll ask me, "Who is this?" and I don't have the heart to break it to them. It's a shame that Phish can't write songs to save their life ... but their jams deserve attention. Too bad non-Phish fans would never deign to give it the time of day. Oh well, I gave up this (and the Grateful Dead) fight long ago.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 2 June 2005 05:10 (twenty years ago)

Well, I'm sure that Boredoms sound like Phish a couple seconds per song.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 2 June 2005 05:51 (twenty years ago)

alright, confession time: in my younger days i used to sport a shag and i had the first five (5!) studio phish albums. i've even seen them live (with dave matthews - before i'd ever heard of him - opening!!). from everything i'd heard, the sounded NOTHING like the boredomes. i don't doubt occasionally they might pull out a heavy psych jam, but mostly i don't believe you

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Thursday, 2 June 2005 06:06 (twenty years ago)

I used to own some Phish as well. Junta, Rift, Billy Breathes, that one what with that horse in a sling on the cover. They were a'ight, nothing resembling the Boredoms though. but y'know I can't hate on Phish, they jam okay.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 2 June 2005 06:10 (twenty years ago)

Plus, no heady 4-cheese pizzas and Sammy Smiths on Boredom Lot, brah.

Yeah, listen for the jams, maybe the occasional early composition, but not for "Love Is Freedom."

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 2 June 2005 06:12 (twenty years ago)

(sorry, "Love Is Freedom" is a Trey Anastasio original. Alls I'm saying is that Trey can't be trusted around a lyrics/pop arrangement.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 2 June 2005 06:15 (twenty years ago)

phag

― Community Cornerstone (deangulberry), Thursday, 2 June 2005 08:12 (twenty years ago)

Suzy doesn't know Phish very well.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

I used to own some Phish as well. Junta, Rift, Billy Breathes, that one what with that horse in a sling on the cover. They were a'ight, nothing resembling the Boredoms though. but y'know I can't hate on Phish, they jam okay.

Those are studio albums and that's not what we're talkin' 'bout here, Willis.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

There is NOTHING from Siket Disc, Tower Jam, Lemonwheel Set 5, any of the '94 Tweezers, or anything Phish has ever done that sounds remotely like the Boredoms.

It appears we are at an impasse. You say they sound nothing alike, yet I thought I was listening to Phish. You say they sound nothing alike, yet it sounds just like many Phish jams I have heard, including all that I mentioned and it also reminds me especially of the IT DVD disc 2. You said Phish sounds nothing like Boredoms, yet I said VisionCreationNewsun sounds like a Phish jam. Not Chocalate Synthesizer. Secondly, you can claim to have heard every goddamn Phish showe ever circulated and I will not believe you or respect your opinion that Phish does not sound like VisionCreationNewsun because THEY DO. End of discussion.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

OH wait! I have one more thing to add:

Except Phish does not ride that "VisionCreationNewsun" sound for longer than 15 minutes whereas Boredoms made a whole boring album out of it. VCN really sucks! Goes nowhere! 'Kay, now that's the end of the discussion.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

If I have learned anything from this thread,it's that somewhere, buried deep in a crappy tribute disk, is a recording of Tom Tom Club doing a cover of "Sand", which might actually be pretty fucking kickass.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 2 June 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

Boredoms do a Phish cover, too. For real. In addition to the VCN album, I mean. A real actual Phish cover!

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 12:34 (twenty years ago)

oh, unfortunate prankster

I once argued Can were sort of a jam band, and in some ways they are, as are Boredoms. I won't doubt that Boredoms, Can and Phish listen to some of the same music, and on occasion, sound similar. I will doubt that they are the same band, or the majority of their music is the same. And will absolutely dispute that VCN goes nowhere. For me, it goes to some of the best places.

x-post, see gygax's comment above re: the Phish cover. It's really good!

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 2 June 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

I've actually *for shame* been listening to a bit of teh Phish again lately, and one thing that strikes me is that, if they had just, you know, CARED about the LYRICS in their songs, they might've actually truly been as kick-ass as their fans believe they were.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:07 (twenty years ago)

In justification of my actions, let me point out that a great deal of Phish's repertoire is insanely appropriate listening for an extremely animated and imaginative 6 year old.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:08 (twenty years ago)

Phish's lyrics are actually pretty deep on occasion and (hate to tell ya) often are in-jokes about mysticism/occult. But, they do it in such a fun way, it often comes across as joyful idiocy.

Now, about the above comments: while I agree with what I say above, I was jokingly being an asshole with the "end of discussion" line. Although, it really sort of is because we really sort of are at an impasse.

As for VCN going anywhere, I think it is your wandering mind that goes somewhere. Like an acid trip. Does the beat EVER change? If it does, I didn't notice. The same 9-note guitar lead is repeated through the entire disc. The rest is atmospherics that never break out of the simple formula explained in the first 30 seconds. So, for me, that's "going nowhere." Phish does similar stuff, but like I say, not for more than 15 minutes.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

ORGANIC JUNK FOOD

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

Actually, the songs on VCN do change, as do the melodic motives. They do so subtly, over time, much like a lot of minimalist pieces and electronic dance music (not to mention krautrock, some of Miles Davis' fusion stuff, Indian classical music, et al). Obv, they are not "songs" in the same sense pop songs are, nor are they lengthy symphonic pieces. By the same token, they are not monolithic. One could argue the beat in thousands of pop songs never changes, yet they are hardly "going nowhere". The beat, in the case of VCN, is mostly rooted in 4-on-the-floor disco pulse, though what happens on top of it is almost constantly changing. And even then, it is the *tempo* which does not change, rather than the beat, as VCN features very clear transitions from disco-oriented pulse to motorik beat (which lines up in tempo, but is an altogether different rhthmic pattern).

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

A climax would be nice. Or a significant change. Otherwise, 15 minutes does it for me. I realize this is background music with subtle changes and I own lots of music similar to this... well, not really; nothing that fills an entire disc. I can appreciate it for what it is now and again, but this disc was specifically recommended to me by someone on ILM _instead of_ Phish. I'd owned it since the first week it came out in the US and only listened to it twice, I think. After recently getting into Zorn and Fantomas, I remembered VCN and was hoping it would sound more like Chocolate Synthesizer, which I love. To my surprise, it sounds like later Phish, when they got more into their ambient groove thing.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:52 (twenty years ago)

How strange... I used to own 3 Phish CD's, and just the other day, I sold them to the store and used the credit to buy VCN. I'm not sure what that means.

― Mickey (modestmickey), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

Jam bands made me hate "climaxes".

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

jordan OTM.

― peter smith (plsmith), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:57 (twenty years ago)

It means you're smarter than Prankster, for starters. (2xpost)

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 2 June 2005 13:59 (twenty years ago)

VCN has TONS of climaxes! The one early into 'track 4' immediately comes to mind.

― original bgm, Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

I think VCN 'climaxes' at points too, but it's a more subtle climax. A female orgasm to Phish's male one, perhaps?

― Keith C (kcraw916), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

It has a sweet post-climax bliss-out as well.

― original bgm, Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

actually - i dont hate climaxes. but theres something a little crass about jam band climaxes. i find they lack energy, or they never quite come unhinged or something - it reads as a little disingenuous sometimes. phish is far from the main offender here (DAVEMATTHEWSBAND!), but still, it seems a little forced sometimes with them.

― peter smith (plsmith), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

yeah - super roots 7 has like 7-8 full minutes of climax.

― peter smith (plsmith), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

There is no climax on the whole album, man. It just softens and adds aural washes which makes it actually appear to slow down and then starts up again where it left off. Unless your idea of a climax is a nice, soft respite, of course.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:07 (twenty years ago)

Well, by the time Boredoms made VCN, they were well past their days of sounding like Zorn or Fantomas. It's funny, because I think Fantomas' Delerium Cordia is pretty boring. Not enough happens for me to sustain interest. VCN, on the other hand, rather than lacking a climax, is almost an exercise in ebb and flow, climax to bliss to climax. I don't really think of it as "background music", but then I've been known to leave Philip Glass music on all day on repeat, so my perspective is probably a lot different than yours.

If you love Chocolate Synthesizer, your best bet with this band is moving backwards, not forwards, heading for albums like Pop Tatari and Soul Discharge. Pretty much everything they've done since 1996 or 1997 is heading towards the VCN sound. (I'd be curious to see what you think about Super Roots 6, which is faux-ambient, and separated into lots of realtively short, individual songs - albeit ones in which not that much "changes". Doesn't sound anything like Phish though).

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)

I was checking out the big Boredoms thread with 300+ posts last night and making notes. So far, I noted Super Roots 6-8, Super AE and Pop Tatari. Their whole package is really so attractive, I've always wanted more but was afraid to get burned. I have a feeling most of it is probably worth having, though.

Their whole package is really so attractive that I sometimes wonder if, like make-up-era Kiss is so great to some people, maybe Boredoms package (including CD packaging) is what differentiates albums like VCN from Phish in some people's minds. Crazy fun psychedelic savages vs. old boring, ugly hippies, you know.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

can we all at least agree that Outside the Dream Syndicate is totally awesome?

― peter smith (plsmith), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, the jam band sort of climax that I'm thinking of is an immature one, where everything gets LOUDER or FASTER or BUSIER. I think it's more effective when the climaxes are a little more controlled (like on VCN).

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:14 (twenty years ago)

OH yeah, I just remembered why I was afraid to get burned. Besides drumming, it doesn't appear to me that they can really play their instruments very well like Zorn or Fantomas. What I've heard proves they're good at making noises, textures and jarring, simple power chord riffs, but is that all? I expect the answer "Isn't that enough?!" But, really, is that all? Or can they really play?

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

I usually think of a climax as not noisier or faster or busier, but what all the overlaid segments of sound finally reveal themselves to be, which is what Phish does best. The climax is the groove that digs in or the revealing of the magic piece of the puzzle or the puzzle is finally put together.

VCN just basically gets noisier, faster and busier and then PAUSES.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

(UP in being responsible for more than half the posts in his/its own thread shocker. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.)

― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I am hurted!

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

There was a time when people used to lump bands like Boredoms with bands like Naked City, Ruins, Fushitsusha, Merzbow, etc. Those days are long gone. You'd probably dig pretty much anything Boredoms did prior to the mid-90s, and would be well advised to check out all of the above bands (in addition to dozens of other "japanoise" bands).

Phish, to me, always seemed to me to be more related to Grateful Dead-style bands than Boredoms. Boredoms to me seem more in the realm of Can and various tribal music, like some of the Nonsuch Explorer series from various South Pacific islands. The end results of these bands shares things, but at their heart, I don't know if they really evoke the same things for me.

x-post: re, their instrumental abilities. Yeah, you should probably check out Ruins.

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

Usually when I make an inarguable point, nobody ever posts again to admit defeat rather than just saying, "Yeah, you're right. VCN does basically just get noisier, faster and busier and then PAUSES. Hm, I will rethink my life now."

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

like dom was saying, i think the aesthetic of minimalism/repetition is really important to liking new boredoms. theyve got awesome sounds and textures, but theres something to the idea of having elements repeat over and over in a purposeful way, to explore the nuance and subtlety of some slow change that is really potent, in and of itself. certainly, i dont wanna hear something that i hate repeated ad infinitum, but i think the boredoms make for a really interesting drone.

― peter smith (plsmith), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:26 (twenty years ago)

And it is misleading to say Boredoms can't play. Seiichi Yamamoto (gtr) has played with most of the biggest names in Japanese art-rock, and is at least as capable as, say, Fred Frith, and current drummer Yo2ro is a technically fantastic drummer.

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:27 (twenty years ago)

Phish, to me, always seemed to me to be more related to Grateful Dead-style bands than Boredoms.

This seems to prove my point about Boredoms package vs. Phish's package. Phish really sounds nothing like Grateful Dead except on the early recordings from '86 when they actually played Scarlet Begonias. But, that doesn't stop anyone from constantly comparing them. Yet, there is basically nothing in common; not the guitar tone, singing, song structure, drumming, bass or even the jams.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:27 (twenty years ago)

Dom: Delerium Cordia really is a snooze. Have you heard the new one?

Or can they really play?

Who cares? What kind of playing do you think would make VCN better?

― original bgm, Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:27 (twenty years ago)

I mean the percussion (which is def. the heart of the album) is far from sloppy.

― original bgm, Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:29 (twenty years ago)

But is that package or general perception, UP? I admit, I'm hardly knowledgable on Phish's output, but what strikes me about them is that seem almost happy-go-lucky, or at least exploratory. By contrast, Boredoms are hyper-focused. It's not that they're instrumental geniuses, but they don't really play "jams" like Phish does (or the Grateful Dead) - their stuff is pretty structured, and though the repetoire changes over time, they don't just go out on exploratory musical forays.

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

there are a ton of songs where that "lock-on" moment is really awesome and powerful, UP ("here come the warm jets", for one), and phish does do that well in some cases, but its not the only way to have a climax or catharsis, and sometimes, when almost EVERY song you hear has the same tension-release structure, it sounds sort of hackneyed. again, i point to dave matthews as the most egregious offender.

― peter smith (plsmith), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

I haven't heard Delerium Cordia yet. Not sure I will now.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:35 (twenty years ago)

Dom: Delerium Cordia really is a snooze. Have you heard the new one?

I have not, though I have read from many that it's great. I guess I'll need to hear before writing them off (again). :)

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

"I usually think of a climax as not noisier or faster or busier, but what all the overlaid segments of sound finally reveal themselves to be, which is what Phish does best. The climax is the groove that digs in or the revealing of the magic piece of the puzzle or the puzzle is finally put together."

That's a nice way of saying they bore you for a noodly hour before giving you some for five minutes. I mean, I was on acid the one time I saw Phish, and I was still completely bored. The absolute nadir came when they did Also Sprach Zarathustra for 15 minutes with no demonstration whatsoever of the sense of awe and dread built into that composition. And then on the road home some girl gave my friend a handjob the whole way, with as little sense of audience as Phish had. It's possible I just saw like their one bad show, but man the whole night was bad enough for me to close my heart to them.

― beta ray bill, Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:38 (twenty years ago)

I hear what you're saying, but Phish is incredibly structured in their actual songs. Their whole thing in their jams that sets them apart from other jam bands is that they developed a language to have a musical conversation with each other and, due to this, often end up with very tight structured jams, despite the fact that they're always trying to push it to a dangerous edge where the whole thing could fall apart. Sometimes, it does. That's when people complain of noodling, I guess. But, more often, as Peter Smith described it, they "lock on." And not every Phish song has the same tension-release structure. It's mostly a live show thing and often the jams "climax" is seemlessly becoming a classic Phish song and back into a jam and back into another song... but you can't locate the point in time where it happens. Phish could arguably be considered much more focused and intense than the Boredoms. Really being able to play your instrument well doesn't just come from sitting around smiling.

;-)

Or can they really play?

Who cares? What kind of playing do you think would make VCN better?

I mean the percussion (which is def. the heart of the album) is far from sloppy.

here, let me just repost what you're responding to. You will find all your answers there:

Besides drumming, it doesn't appear to me that they can really play their instruments very well like Zorn or Fantomas. What I've heard proves they're good at making noises, textures and jarring, simple power chord riffs, but is that all? I expect the answer "Isn't that enough?!" But, really, is that all? Or can they really play?

Additionally, I will offer: I think several kinds of playing could have made VCN better, but if they mined the fragmented rock noise too much on their previous albums, I see why they avoided it on their later albums. It's funny that you make a point about percussion, given my lead in "besides drumming."

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

That's a nice way of saying they bore you for a noodly hour before giving you some for five minutes.

VCN never gave me those 5 minutes!

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

I expect the answer "Isn't that enough?!" But, really, is that all? Or can they really play?

http://www.panix.com/~ah/musicf/pix/95bor03.jpg

http://www.vpr.net/gfx/news/phish_pellett2.jpg

Which looks more exciting to you?

..i mean, for fuck's sake.. if you want to talk about Phish's technical abilities being better than the Boredoms' in your own little cul de sac of a thread for the rest of the week, fine. It's your opinion and your thread obviously. "Isn't that enough?!" should be *enough* of an answer, IMHO. but babble on.

― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

Again the "whole package". Donut helps prove my point.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

ohhhhh dear. Well, this is a bizarre discussion, huh. firstly I think/agree that it is lazy and incorrect to compare phish/the dead musically. (as much as it is wrt the boredoms, but whatever) you can certainly parallel the trappings of both bands, but basically the only shared thing is a (live) reliance on a lot of improv. I mean, let's remember that there was a time where phish would play fucking FUGUES live.

and while I think that there is no excuse for any of their output post-97 or so, I also think that between 93-96 or so they were doing some amazing shit live on a pretty regular basis. not the "climaxy jammy-jams" that they ended up doing so much of, but some pretty internally structured and disciplined stuff, on occasion. they've done plenty since that is wretched, and their fans in general don't help, but I also think they don't deserve to be written off entirely.

additionally, this is ridiculous

― b'angelo, Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:57 (twenty years ago)

It is ridiculous. Meant to be fun, really. I guess I will leave this thread to everyone else for a while...

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

Again the "whole package". Donut helps prove my point.

In that case based on the picture the Phish package suffers from botulism and rickets.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:00 (twenty years ago)

Ned chimes in to prove my point some more...

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:01 (twenty years ago)

That you're being dull and one-note? Hooray!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

No, that you could very well be a member of Phish yourself, Ned.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

Most certainly not. Beards are of the devil.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:05 (twenty years ago)

Only one beard in Phish. You'd have to lose the purple tie, though.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:06 (twenty years ago)

I really hope we can argue in another 100 posts on how Ned Raggett could be a member of Phish. I mean can you imagzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Donut is addicted to this thread. It is his heroin. He wants to quit, but keeps coming back for more and nodding off.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:10 (twenty years ago)

I think it was the Boredoms that J the Mod played me in NYC. Whoever it was, they were so bad they weren't even there.

― the bellefox, Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

Donut is addicted to this thread. It is his heroin. He wants to quit, but keeps coming back for more and nodding off.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!

later. have fun.

― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:13 (twenty years ago)

I'll miss you, dude. :-(

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:15 (twenty years ago)

What UP, did I hurt your feelings b/c 70 Volt Parade was a big dissapointment? But I guess that's off topic ... and maybe you think "Love Is Freedom" is one deeeeeep song.

And yes, GD and Phish shouldn't really be grouped together. Culturally, maybe. Musically? Probably not. Composition-wise, the closest GD comes to Phish might be Terrapin Station or Slipknot; none of their stuff has that classical feel like old Anastasio comps (Fluffhead, Bowie, YEM, Foam, MFMFriend, Guyute, etc.). Jamming style was completely different, too, although there is a lot of '77-'79 GD that 'peaks' the same way that Phish did (lots of tension/release stuff).

There is A LOT of post-97 stuff that is right up there w/ the previous stuff, although I'd agree that post-97 is when there were hit-or-miss shows. Plenty of '98 Gin hoses, dark, long '99 stuff like the Boise Bag, BIG CYPRESS, and then you've got to consider the Pipers from post-hiatus, 2/28/03 Tweezer, etc. etc. The big difference for me, though, has been the drastic drop in song-writing since '97.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:22 (twenty years ago)

While I don't expect an apology from any of the uncivilized dolts who went out of their way to offend me, I apologize to Ned, Donut, Alan N and Suzy Creamcheese for being snotty. I hope you all realize it was done in jest. I also apologize to everyone for creating this thread, which was basically intended to pester and annoy. I also apologize for calling those people "uncivilized dolts." I don't take music that seriously, though I am a big fan of it.

Now I must do some work. Thanks all for the insightful music criticism and recommendations! And for playing along on my thread instead of ignoring it.

― Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

wait, so DOES or DOESN'T VCN sound like phish?!?!?@!?@!@#!@@#!@

― Mickey (modestmickey), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:33 (twenty years ago)

(I think so, personally) -- okay, now I'm out for realz! Later!

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

oh no :(

― Mickey (modestmickey), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

I can't accept your apology until you admit to me that:

1) Seis de Mayo has been Trey's only decent solo studio release, and
2) The 4-minute stretch from the 7/10/99 Chalkdust is the best jam moment they've had since '97.

The happy by-product of this thread - me digging out VCN and actually answering this question properly.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Phish and the Boredoms are both better than this thread.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

Well, Gotta Jiboo groove jams aren't better than this.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 2 June 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

3000 solo projects prove you wrong.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 3 June 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

Wrong about what? I was asking a question. A question can't be wrong.

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Friday, 3 June 2005 22:13 (twenty years ago)

dude, are you aaronhz?

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Friday, 3 June 2005 22:28 (twenty years ago)

also, ian's saying you are wrong because of this statement: Besides drumming, it doesn't appear to me that they can really play their instruments very well like Zorn or Fantomas.

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Friday, 3 June 2005 22:29 (twenty years ago)

IT was actually me saying that!

― JW (orion), Friday, 3 June 2005 22:58 (twenty years ago)

go home jon

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:06 (twenty years ago)

also, ian's saying you are wrong because of this statement: Besides drumming, it doesn't appear to me that they can really play their instruments very well like Zorn or Fantomas.

Only I can verify how things appear to me. This is why I worded it specifically in this manner. His opinion of 3,000 solo projects I've never heard does not prove my statement wrong in any way. I'm tempted to believe him, but then again I don't know if he's genuinely right or just angrily spouting.

Please notice, I am not being a prick at all here. If you think I am, you've mistaken something I've said.

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:06 (twenty years ago)

You are being a prick. Right there! In the post right above this one!

― JW (orion), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)

http://users.rcn.com/bbober/zing/zphotos/zlogo_purple.gif

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)

Is Yamamoto really in the same league as Fred Frith as Dominique stated upthread?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:20 (twenty years ago)

I saw him play this weekw ith people and he was great!

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

That was JW and not me.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:51 (twenty years ago)

Tim, I'm really referring to his playing on a technical level - though being that the two have played together, I'd say they have some artistic common ground as well.

― Dominique (dleone), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:54 (twenty years ago)

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:59 (twenty years ago)

. . . still not accepting his apology ...

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Saturday, 4 June 2005 01:17 (twenty years ago)

Suzy, I can't agree because I don't own Seis De Mayo. I listened to it in the store and decided I didn't want to ruin the songs for myself. I do not need or want a classical version of Guyute floating around my head and didn't particularly care for the general sound of the cd as well as the production, which seemed a little devoid of life. Also, I happen to like Plasma, Pecked By The Dove and that one where he's staring out the rainy window (forgot the name).

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Saturday, 4 June 2005 04:12 (twenty years ago)

It's difficult for me to compare Yamamoto and Frith. To me, Frith's best work is the solo guitar improv idiom that he developed - the bewildering variety of extended techniques that he mastered and made seem natural as the plectrum. To see him in a solo improv situation can be a revelation, or in a duo improv gig as he did at the most recent Victo Fest with Braxton. Yamamoto to me is a technically gifted guitarist, but I think his greatest strengths lie elsewhere. The things that Omoide Hatoba came up with continue to blow my mind, and I think his role as a conceptual mind on par with Eye in the original Boredoms should not be underestimated.

― o. nate (onate), Saturday, 4 June 2005 04:24 (twenty years ago)

the "staring" out the window is TAB's studio album (TAB). Seis de Mayo isn't crucial, but the Pebbles and Marbles, Andre the Giant, and Guyute (w/ My Friend My Friend appended to the beginning) are great. Trey conceived of Guyute as an orchestral piece, and I think he executes it nicely there. I think if Trey had continued w/ the TAB line-up, it could have been something nice (better than 70 Volt Parade, at least). You can hear hints of it scattered throughout the live performances, but I don't think Plasma does a good job finding those. Pecked by the Dove? Eh.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Saturday, 4 June 2005 04:34 (twenty years ago)

I know the story of Guyute and the fugues and all that, I just didn't like it when I heard it and immediately thought, "NO, I can't listen to this!" I'm funny that way. Bad associations can really fuck up my listening pleasure because my monkey mind fixates on the memory of something I don't like and it just ruins the song.

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Saturday, 4 June 2005 04:42 (twenty years ago)

And yeah, he should've stuck with the TAB thing. His new stuff sounds like it must suck ass.

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Saturday, 4 June 2005 04:44 (twenty years ago)

understood. of all of the non-jam songs, guyute was always one of my favorites (and not b/c of the whole 'fugue' thing - i figure of all the fugue-composers, trey is pretty far down on the list). So much of the TAB stuff is tough to talk about b/c it's so mediocre to my ears. A lot of boring polyrhythmic stuff. But, the band was coming closer and closer to sounding like trey's dream, fela kuti (not that it ever had the edge that a lot of fela kuti's live bands had). Nice strong sound, and the band was beginning to learn how to find their spots w/r/t improvising within an 8-piece.

the good news - doesn't sound like this new band is gonna last. thank god.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Saturday, 4 June 2005 05:10 (twenty years ago)

I have a funny feeling that Phish is really the best thing we'll ever see out of these 4 musicians. In a way, I'm kind of glad I ignored all the live stuff for so long. At least I wasn't basically tired of YEM and ready to call it quits when the band did. I was conversing with some people after the Brooklyn show about how I was pretty bummed and they were all like, "Ah man, I've been doing this for so many years. It's all good. Change is good." And I felt like I must seem like a luddite to them when in reality I just hadn't obsessed over them for the last decade like so many other fans had.

If Trey put together something very horny and jazzy and not world beat-y, I would be happy. Like Reconstruction!

― ReNTBAPA: Resolute Not To Be A Prick Anymore (Unfortunate Prankster), Saturday, 4 June 2005 05:17 (twenty years ago)

three weeks pass...

are phish dead yet?....they should just die already

― That One Guy (That One Guy), Thursday, 30 June 2005 00:58 (nineteen years ago)

yes, they did break up.

― Mickey (modestmickey), Thursday, 30 June 2005 01:04 (nineteen years ago)

I love this thread.

― Ian John50n (orion), Thursday, 30 June 2005 01:05 (nineteen years ago)

NotPrick - Well, Trey's first post-phish band, TAB, was exactly that: 9 piece band, lots of horns, world-beatish but not wimpy (he patterned it after Fela Kuti's stuff). It had it's moments; if he'd kept that band together, it really could have been something special. Improving cohesively with that many people can get kinda hairy, but by the end they were really doing some great stuff.

And yes, Phish is dead. ILM can rejoice.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 30 June 2005 01:19 (nineteen years ago)

ten years pass...

i wish the thread topic were true... what's some more stuff like this? minimialist maximalist psychedelic journey that's FUN and joyous and raucous

― global tetrahedron, Monday, 16 May 2016 19:54 (nine years ago)

or, alternately, am i going to find myself being into phish in like five years (finally got into the dead recently, so...)

― global tetrahedron, Monday, 16 May 2016 19:58 (nine years ago)

Guardian Alien perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5YF6BlUIiA

― MaresNest, Monday, 16 May 2016 20:01 (nine years ago)

listening to track one of this 'siket disc' mentioned above and it's... not bad

― global tetrahedron, Monday, 16 May 2016 20:06 (nine years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLpUz2m5USU

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Monday, 16 May 2016 20:15 (nine years ago)

I don't know much like this myself, except moments from Can records, or early and mid-70s era Kraftwerk. Really, you'd have better luck looking at house and techno DJ mixes to get a better idea of how this record flows.

The thread title is comically false, because while Boredoms are a great live band with jammy aspects, this record is a total studio concoction, and the production is as much (or a more) a factor in how this album sounds as the playing. All Boredoms records are like this actually, and IMO a big part of what makes them unique.

― Dominique, Monday, 16 May 2016 20:23 (nine years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYAd0-ifNlM

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 16 May 2016 20:24 (nine years ago)

i love that hawkwind album but don't see a lot of similarities. maybe they're more tounge-in-cheek than i think but i associate hawkwind as more like a 'going into the void' type of psychedelia, i like how 'sunny' VCN is (right down to the cover!)

VCN definitely is clearly very studio-centric, another reason i like it. i know Can edited down a lot of their jams and whatnot but VCN seems to take the studio orchestration to a different level

― global tetrahedron, Monday, 16 May 2016 20:32 (nine years ago)

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