The Runaways - classic or dud?

The "C-c-cherry Bomb!" hook can gets grating fast to my ears. It's not a bad song, just a song that overuses its best hook a little too much.

The documentary now on video should be rented for its two live sequences, both covers.

http://citypages.com/movies/detail.asp?MID=6066

Why doesn't Joan Jett let someone put together a real concert movie?

I hope someone does a full-bore Joan documentary sometime, though.

http://www.powells.com/biblio/7-1127330624-0#product_details

It kind of sucked but captured the sordid nature of her life and Runaways promotion. For lip readers, like any band promoted by Kim Fowley, the real script for "Foxes" only Cherie doesn't die, fortunately. Two solo albums, one with sister. Go for the one sans sister with Cherie in her thigh high boots. Not too good, but it's top fuel polishing material and Fowley had something to do with it so thigh-rubbing is purely a natural thang.

Second solo album was with ace LA session hacks. Jeezus.

Live Runaways "Japan" album rules, probably because a great deal of it was added in the studio by thigh-rubbing guitar-playing engineer layabouts. First album, my favorites: "American Nights" and the mini-opera where Cherie and Joan are breaking out of juvie. Basis for Wendy O. Williams' "Reform School Girls" starring that big chick Sylvester Stallone made movies with and who now shows up on Howard Stern professing love to someone twenty years younger.

They're one of the few bands outside of Blondie & the Beatles that can fill me with that kind of blissful pop hysteria. "Queens of Noise" is just such a ridiculously perfect song it nearly brings tears to my eyes.

Anyone remember when Cherie Currie starred in that (admittedly awful as I recall) film called Foxes with Jodie Foster in 1980? I was like 9 years old when I saw that.

I agree that the execution is better than the idea. Who would give a shit about all the feminist or erotic fantasy aspects of it if the music wasn't any good? I wouldn't.

Yeah, she gets in a car with a swinging Beverly Hills perv couple who drive recklessly and get in an accident. Cherie has the death scene, coughs blood into an oxygen mask, and expires.

She was also in an awful Charles Band movie called Parasite with pre-fame Demi Moore. She was also infrequently in dramatic TV as a character actress.

Parasite

The credits of Cherie Currie including the never duplicated "Cherie Curie's Chainsaw Art"

She probably has another interesting bio in here. The original, cited above and now sold at Powell's and which I read, wasn't it. She needs a co-writer to bring out the blood, drama and trainwreck in a fascinating way.

And btw: the Blackhearts are on the Warped tour this Summer.

And if the second CD actually arrives in the post tomorrow I'm going to annoy my neighbours thoroughly. The music speaks for itself, this is absolutely amazing stuff. Swept under the rug of history perhaps, but nonetheless...

I still love this band. As long as Cherie is in it.

Just so you aren't talking to yourself... it's their cover of Roadrunner that got me hooked recently. No Cherie, oh well.

I'm not sure if I've heard that before, thanks.

I was in a department store earlier today and they were playing something in there that was a poor, poor, poor obvious ripoff and horrific diluted copy of the riff from Runaways "Is It Day Or Night?" and I was really disgusted and I vowed to post about it here. I don't know what this song was, but you can keep your modern music far, far from me.

I haven't finished, though. For I heard Duran Duran's Reflex in there too and if that isn't THE worst Duran song on earth...

I love playing with fiyah
fiyah

1st album is so great. goes for some money though! i found a nice vinyl copy for 10 bucks a couple years back, but gave it to my gf cuz i knew she'd like it. she does, but now i (greedily) want one of my own :(

http://youngmanhattanite.tumblr.com/post/37135660965/cryptofwrestling-the-runaways-visit-rush

Nobody mentioned "Heart Beat" yet. I'd failed to notice it until hearing the Bebe Buell cover version. Now one of my favorite things. The stitched together video here works well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwhAPNo5z8Y

harrowing stuff

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/the-lost-girls/

very much, if I were not at work I would be crying now

strong piece, heartbreaking story

obviously i had read about him being a nasty piece of work, but i had no idea as to this level of depravity.

Sounds totally fucked up about Jett and them as well.

wow @ that fowley zine ad

Scram zine interview with the publisher of Back Door Man in 2003:

Scram: What was the origin of the inside back cover ad in issue # 3 that has Kim Fowley soliciting a girlfriend?

Don: He paid for it.

Scram: Was he serious?

Don: I can only guess at his motivation. I think it’s obvious. (laughter). I’ve always thought of Kim as an eccentric uncle. He’s very funny when he’s not talking about his own projects. When he’s talking about his own stuff, its just bullshit on bullshit. I would watch him work the phones and come up with weird slang and say things like “Gram Parsons is just a guy who knew a lot of George Jones B-sides.” He’s a pig. I really must say that. A lot of women find him disgusting.

This story is horrifying. I wish I was more surprised by it, that I didn't feel like this was an inevitable revelation.

Ms. Fox is a sophisticated attorney who is surely-well advised (and was a dear friend of a managing partner at a BIGLAW office I for some dumb reason worked at). Kim Fowley was not well-connected or even well-liked toward the end of his life. I will be very interested to read Joan Jett's response.

Yeah, that was my reaction too. The stuff that was already known about Fowley in general and how he treated the band was bad enough to infer that there was more under the surface. Still awful to read the details. (btw -- story was written by a college friend of mine. good job, Jason!)

In terms of the behavior and culpability of the rest of the band, I think that's hard to assess. They were kids, there was all sorts of crazy stuff going on around them, there was obviously a weird dynamic within the band about Jackie's place in it. When I watched that Runaways doc a few years ago (the one Joan didn't participate in), I remember thinking that there was a thousand-yard-stare vibe to the whole thing. Even when they seemed nostalgic, there was a sense that they were survivors of something traumatic. That doesn't excuse them for not intervening or standing up for her afterward. But obviously Fowley was the main bad guy.

Fowley's divide-and-conquer strategy, as mentioned by Currie in the article, is pretty transparent in hindsight and from a great remove.

..

Warning: Braindump:

I can't judge Joan too harshly. I don't know the extent of Fowley's abuse of the rest of the band, but even emotional abuse at a young age can do a huge number on you, even in adulthood. And she stayed friends with him to the end, so her version of the past could well be pretty skewed.

But also, how the fuck *should* teenage girls handle seeing their bandmate assaulted by their manager. If she or Cherie blocked it out or laughed it off to get along they wouldnt be the first. There was not a single responsible adult influence in their lives at that time - whatever choices Joan or Cherie or Lita made were their own to survive the best way they knew how.

Joan has clearly put up a wall between herself & the past & she may never reckon with that part of her life. Maybe it's better for her if she doesnt. Joan survives; that's what she does best, and I think that wall is a lot of the reason why.

I cant and wont judge her b

Fair enough.

Hasn't Fowely's awfulness been well established for last 20 years or so? Wasn't there similar stories in Please Kill Me?

Wish the Twitter headlines for this had been more circumspect, and I bet I'm not the only one. If some social media intern realized that and decided in favor of clicks, god help them.

I now return you to discussion of the actual fucked up shit.

Real question (because I am old and dim) - is that what people mean when they say "trigger warning"? That reading the headline about the story can be traumatic? (Sorry, I know this sounds stupid but I've never really known what it means in context)

It means the content may be disturbing to some readers.

Booming post, VG.

Absolutely.

x-post; I guess I was wondering if Lukas means it can be upsetting reading the word in a headline, not knowing what the content is? Or were there some particularly graphic Twitter links? I am not being loaded with this - I guess I am wondering what the preferred way of linking to the story would be?

But also, how the fuck *should* teenage girls handle seeing their bandmate assaulted by their manager. If she or Cherie blocked it out or laughed it off to get along they wouldnt be the first. There was not a single responsible adult influence in their lives at that time - whatever choices Joan or Cherie or Lita made were their own to survive the best way they knew how.

VG super otm. not to mention that in 2015 there are still backlogs of rape kits waiting to be tested. not even the government is not doing its part to support victims of sexual violence who have done everything they were supposed to. and people want the runaways to answer for their silence? please.
there's a lot of work to be done wrt raising awareness of sexual assault and retroactively blaming joan, cherie, and/or lita for not acting on this horrific event is not a fruitful use of time or energy

this story upset me a lot.

(Sorry, another x-post)

Because I saw one person Tweet this: Incredible story: Jackie Fuchs, member of The Runaways, raped by Kim Fowley in front of witnesses with a link to the article...

And then a person in response Tweeted: this sensationalized headline is irresponsible, gross and triggering

Maybe I'm confused about the use of the word "headline"? The article's headline is The Lost Girls: One famous band. One huge secret. Many lives destroyed

Just trying to figure out where the first person went wrong in a way that was so upsetting to the respondee

I feel basically the same way as VG. I also respect whatever bitterness or betrayal Jackie feels toward the other band members. It's a bad situation all the way around.

One thing the story brings home (not that it's news, exactly) is how sleazy and exploitative so much of the "sexual revolution" was. Contraception and changing generational attitudes freed up women's sexuality, but it was still within the context of a culture where men had almost all of the real power. Which lots and lots of men freely abused, with little or no consequences.

It's horrible, I almost couldn't read it. It's irrational I know but it makes me annoyed about all those indie guys I used to know in Glasgow who thought this prick was really cool, some of them even played with him. The fact that he was a horrible prick was glossed over as him being a 'character'.

Story gave me the spins. I fucking hate men, just wipe us all out IMO. The hippie dream, the rock and roll dream, the sex lib dream, the mystical cosmic dream, they were all just opportunities for men to turn women and girls into property/victims/corpses all over again.

Little details that are fucking with me:

When she starts tearing up thinking about the last time she peacefully fell asleep *decades ago*

The replacement bassist listening to the band snickering about the rape

Fowley staying up all night pitching his custody arrangement to fox's mom

I apologize for the lack of emotional sobriety in that post

It just feels like maleness is this problem that's never gonna stop ruining everything and idk how to square it in my mind

one of the commenters on the article (in case you're wondering, the comments are somehow not awful) says that fowley allegedly tried to rape one of his band members in the '90s

I know that dude -- he's nuts, and it's not his story to tell. Not saying he's lying.

https://twitter.com/emilynussbaum/status/619130877130481664

emily nussbaum Verified account
‏@emilynussbaum

It actually lends a lot of context to the supposed "anti-sex" bent of some 70s feminist thought.

Didn't know this about Michael Steele (later of the Bangles), who preceded Fox:

Steele's departure from the group has been given several interpretations—her own account being that she was fired by svengali-like manager Kim Fowley for refusing his sexual propositions and calling the band's debut single "Cherry Bomb" stupid.[10] Fowley would further denigrate her for blowing a chance at fame and not possessing sufficient "magic" or "megalo" to make it in the music industry.[10]

Horrible, ghastly stuff. Really upsetting. vg otm, the band seems to have existed in a constant state of terror and intimidation. All trapped in a place of utter powerlessness.

This guy is scum. We can pick apart what this means and what that means, is it the sexual revolution, or it is the power of the 70s rock n roll fantasy? Ultimately it is this one guy is a piece of shit, no excuses.

The quotes from magazine reviews were gross as hell.

So brave for her to come out w this. I can't help but think the more these type of stories come out the more people will actually try and do something about this.

I know that dude -- he's nuts, and it's not his story to tell. Not saying he's lying.

― Three Word Username, Friday, July 10, 2015 11:24 AM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah I know exactly zero about that dude, just telling imo that the comments are not full of "how do we know this is true" but "here are more examples"

One thing the story brings home (not that it's news, exactly) is how sleazy and exploitative so much of the "sexual revolution" was.

yeah. the sexual revolutio wouldn't have happened without feminism but it was men who really profited from it and exploited it in the biggest way.

This guy is scum. We can pick apart what this means and what that means, is it the sexual revolution, or it is the power of the 70s rock n roll fantasy? Ultimately it is this one guy is a piece of shit, no excuses.

fowley was certainly *more* of a piece of shit than a lot of other guys, but there's no "ultimately" about it when women (and girls, and gay men, and trans people who identify however they identify, and yeah, a few straight men too) continue to be raped every day.

i keep starting to read this and then remembering that the last couple times i read in-depth stories about abuse it basically ruined my week and i spent the next few days unable to stop dwelling on the horrible details and thinking thoughts similar to the ones jon lewis describes.

i remember reading something similar to this about fowley years ago -- probably in please kill me. the details are dim since it's been probably 15 years since i read that book, but they nauseated me enough that i was kind of shocked to see a few ppl on my fb feed going "rip, what a cool guy!" when he died.

he was involved in some cool things/made some good stuff happen. he was also abusive and cruel and fairly evil. these are not mutually exclusive.

dude I got love for you but you know you make that point every time somebody's revealed to be a shitheel, right? like, everybody knows that, it doesn't mean they have to just go "oh, shitty people make great music a lot, whatevs"

I'm just sayin it explains why ppl said things like "RIP" when Fowley died

why would you want that guy to rest in peace though?

are we stuck in some sort of loop here

i can enjoy music without wanting its creator to have a pleasant afterlife, so no. i like a few things fowley did but he can rot in hell.

the sexual revolutio wouldn't have happened without feminism but it was men who really profited from it and exploited it in the biggest way.

???

I read the sexual revolution not as an outgrowth of capitalist patriarchy but rather the mainstream breakthrough of a variety of oppressed/suppressed perspectives from marginalized groups. The success of the sexual revolution is mass awareness and mass communication of these issues. These critical, marginalized perspectives are valid even - especially - in the face of patriarchal exploitation.

can we have more women posting itt pls

you don't even have to be an ally or a "good" feminist, just post

Just talking about how men may have exploited it doesn't necessarily mean you're aligning it with capitalist patriarchy.

can we have more women posting itt pls

― A Smedley Adoption (get bent), Friday, July 10, 2015 8:10 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can I just say you're OTM for now?

yes.

I posted and said what I had to say -- dwelling on it too much is not good for my mental health :-/

"sexual revolution" debate (I agree w get bent on this pt fwiw) maybe worthy of its own ILE thread...?

Can I just say you're OTM for now?
― from batman to balloon dog (carl agatha)

I was going to post a longer, more personal, more TMI answer, but this is the wisest path, yes

(also the one that does not sound like I presume my personal micro-disappointments compare to this really sad story. sorry Jackie, sorry Krome, sorry even to those whose only psychological defence against this horror was to act like it wasn't happening and might've been funny if it were happening. what else can you do when you're that age and that powerless and that wrapped up in a crazy fairytale, with nobody outside the fairytale to talk to?)

Yeah VG, LL, passing spacecadet have all been really really otm in here. I saw a couple news headlines on FB talking about the article (SPIN being a big example) which seemed to trump up the Jett-as-witness angle as if the whole point of the article was to tarnish Jett's image. Super NAGL imo

Joan Jett has released a formal statement.

Anyone who truly knows me understands that if I was aware of a friend or bandmate being violated, I would not stand by while it happened. For a group of young teenagers thrust into 70s rock stardom there were relationships that were bizarre, but I was not aware of this incident. Obviously Jackie’s story is extremely upsetting and although we haven’t spoken in decades, I wish her peace and healing.

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/840-journalist-jason-cherkis-discusses-his-investigation-into-kim-fowley-rape-allegations/

Wow, I was just coming here to post that!

also https://populismblog.wordpress.com/2015/07/10/statement-on-the-lost-girls

From McDonnell's piece:

Although I did not know him at all, I attempted to help him as a colleague. In return, he exploited my research in his article and has repeatedly attacked me online.

What has he been saying about McDonnell?

Regardless, this is totally depressing and sad.

Him = Jason Cherkis, the author of the HP piece.

From his PF interview, it sounds like he had to lie/obfuscate often to avoid revealing the true subject of the article - tricky, but a little understandable since doing it clean, the victim would've been outed before the article came out

a problem for me is cognitively is that this man has always been awful, has never made much effort to disguise it ... and just existed in the world raping girls on tables or wherever because... he had power?
And the Cosby thing keeps biting my heels as i think this all through. Because he was outwardly pleasant and beloved yet behaved equally horribly but under a veil of secrecy and pay offs. because he had some sort of power.
The victims outnumber these fucking asshole garbagepeople. how can their collective voices and confessions and testimony *not* be more powerful than the perceived power of their abusers. They should be pariahs for their weakness long before this level if damage is done

i dunno that line of thinking is such a rabbithole of whyyyyyyyyyy it makes me so sad and crazy

and then theres this:

the runaways had power. have power. all collectively they are like a face melting blitzkrieg of attitude and power and brilliance. but as i think it all through in the middle of the night i'm tempted to tease out what the nature of that power and where it came from and i dont WANT to. i dont want to attribute THEIR power to him. to believe that they are the "result" of his violent evil alchemy. i dont think i believe that and i cant but i know that that is what this story will now start leading people to believe even more than they did before

braindumping. i dunno. its late i should maybe just go to sleep

hugs

Etymology of the word punk is not a coincidence.

i just burst into tears

this is really fucking with me on a deep level.

sorry for livejournaling all over this thing :/

a problem for me is cognitively is that this man has always been awful, has never made much effort to disguise it ...

You'll have heard of Jimmy Savile?

Really disturbing story. Whoever mentioned how the new "openness " of the sexual revolution was clearly exploited by the worst kind of men is otm.

The rush to condemn Joan Jett (not in this thread) is weird to me. She was a child back in those days.

<3 Vegemite
Great posts

Yes VG valuable contributions all around and thank you.

Kim Fowley exploited The Runaways power. He did not give them his.

can we have more women posting itt pls

― A Smedley Adoption (get bent), Friday, July 10, 2015 4:10 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you don't even have to be an ally or a "good" feminist, just post

― A Smedley Adoption (get bent), Friday, July 10, 2015 4:10 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

with all due respect women are not obligated to post in this thread just because some dude wants them to

get bent is not a dude

The rush to condemn Joan Jett (not in this thread) is weird to me. She was a child back in those days.

― Treeship, Saturday, July 11, 2015 1:44 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

plus she says she wasn't there and didn't know about it. which contradicts jackie fox's story. so there are more than one story.

I have no idea who anyone is unless they use their real names; kim fowley was a creep and the story is horrifying and that's really all I have to say about this

Yeah, I'm not a dude. I was responding specifically to the lack of non-dude voices in this thread, and per my follow-up post I wasn't even asking for people to say the "right" things or speak up on anyone's behalf, I was just requesting the presence of other voices, for women to say "Hi, I'm here."

I mean, it would be helpful for dudes to recognize that they are vastly outnumbering women on a thread about women's experience, and that the toxic, draining environment of "women's experience" itself makes women want to retreat from engaging at all. But presence helps. Warm bodies help. I really do envy white cishet men* for their total confidence in every situation and their feeling that their perspective Must Be Heard.

*a general thought, not an assumption about people posting here, although statistically I think this is true

it'd be great if more women, or just general non-white straight dudes, posted here. i dunno what can be done about that, other than people encouraging friends to come check out the board? but i dunno, if the participation in a thread has the same demographic slant as the board in general, how do you control that, should you, etc. if guys want to post in a thread about rape and are not expressing offensive views or shouting down others, is that worse than if they don't care enough to post at all?

Awful lot assuming going on about people being men/ white/ straight.

DID YOU EVEN READ MY ASTERISK

You know what, I'm out. This is too much work.

(xp) It was in reply to some dude's post, not yours.

yeah i never assume anyone is anything because what's the point

Pfork article has been taken down?

some dude AND get bent posting in the same thread?

The link works - it's a quirk of the ILX board software to take out the last / at the end of the link. Just copy and paste the whole line

yeah, apologies, I was a bit hasty there, sorry for assuming you're a dude -- I'm just so used to dudes talking to other dudes about how more non-dudes should talk to them and then badgering said non-dudes into talking to them

Cherie posted on FB saying she'll take a polygraph to prove she didnt stand idly by

It is heartbreaking and infuriating that the takeaway of Jackie's story is WHY DIDNT CHERIE & JOAN DO SOMEHING. How much more wrongheaded can this possibly get?

I am dumbfounded by how little empathy these ppl (whoever they are) have.

Sigh. Punch a wall. Yell. Repeat.

Wtf

The blog post by the queens of noise author was interesting and helpful. Has anyone read her book?

It is heartbreaking and infuriating that the takeaway of Jackie's story is WHY DIDNT CHERIE & JOAN DO SOMEHING. How much more wrongheaded can this possibly get?

^^^ 100 percent this.

xpost I havent but Im going to now thanks to her post

it's not so much "why didn't they do something" but more confusion at how Joan Jett has been defending and sticking up for this guy this entire time. also, he's dead now, so he can't he crucified...

no, that is what's being said. even the lost girls article throws shade at them for standing by

Yeah "why did all these bystanders standby" question is pretty central to the article.

how about we have a brief intermission

http://youtu.be/TixNXWFREvk

I love these photos

http://www.legendaryrockinterviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Runaways-Beach.jpg

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/97589832-rock-band-the-runaways-pose-for-a-portrait-on-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=9QMziWNtBI6whP66vhs4oU16y81CFA%2BdPkqwESTK8MiE3LlZItV3P2yEC7EtSwEvn8Rj%2BATNANuUuJbxyYA62g%3D%3D

But mostly this

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/474x/22/5e/af/225eaff977bb045b633b8bb5eaf390f1.jpg

I kinda wonder how kim would have reacted to this had he still been alive. I sort've doubt he would've denied it.

xps from the comments on the article and those i've seen elsewhere, most people seemed to excuse Joan and Cherie for them being teenagers, afraid, not knowing what to do, possible victims of abuse themselves, and so on. by the same token, they were critical of Jett's actions as an adult

that part about Currie writing the story for her memoir - but changing the details so that Jackie was a bystander and not the rape victim, leading to Jackie having to deny the story happened at all in 2000 - is one of the weirdest, saddest details to me. and now Currie is now denying it happened too? even with the the other witnesses in the story? i don't get it.

It is heartbreaking and infuriating that the takeaway of Jackie's story is WHY DIDNT CHERIE & JOAN DO SOMEHING.

this. your posts have been great on this threas vg and much appreciated

ty

I can't really account for why this fired me up over all the other horrors in the world. I guess mainly because so much of my ideas about my self and who i want/wanted to be are tied up in this band.

Reading Jackie's story... I just have zero critical distance. Reading that article for the first time was like reading a confessional from a friend, it was a weird feeling.

I guess this one is just really personal somehow. They aren't just a band to me. This is way more. Coming here to talk right now is not just to pull apart facts and who did what when, but to console myself & try to seek a bit of empathy and likemindedness & comfort. Or something.

:)

I kinda wonder how kim would have reacted to this had he still been alive. I sort've doubt he would've denied it.

― Οὖτις, Sunday, 12 July 2015 02:08 (14 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

really?

What, if Jackie had gone to him and looked him in the eye and said.. whatever..

You sure Kim wouldn't have said "It never happened" ?

I know, deathbed confessionals, it just doesn't sound like him.

Yeah if nothing else he seems like the kind of shit that would get a kick out of gaslighting his victims

A few things occur to me about this (full disclosure: I'm a straight white guy):

Unless I'm remembering wrong, the article not only says Jett was watching idly by but also pressured others (Jackie? I'm not sure) to not pursue anything against Kim. To me, that's in some ways the more damaging accusation – probably similarly explained by her being young, confused and scared but also indicative of her being maybe a bit more concerned that Jackie could drive her gravy train off the rails than about Jackie's safety, health or well being. 

To try to understand how Kim was viewed, I read a bunch of the obits from January before all this came down. At the time of death his reputation was basically for being an abusive semi-genius eccentric. One piece suggested that perhaps in another era Kim would have been diagnosed with Aspergers. Another, an interview with Cherie about her reconciliation w Kim promoting the release of her first album in 30 years, quotes her saying that as time had gone by she came to excuse a lot of Kim's behavior on the grounds that he had endured a lot of abuse as a kid and that, upon reflection, "he was actually trying to protect us."

Most of which sounds ludicrous and apologist at best in the wake of the Jackie rape story. But it also helps flesh out, in addition to VG's excellent posts and commentary about the dark side of the sexual revolution, how these kinds of horrible acts of violence could not only happen but happen more or less unquestioned when virtually everyone present knew it was deeply wrong. 

It's a tragic story. A complicated one in some ways, tho in other ways not at all. I'm struck by how on one hand this is a story about dependency, innocence, abuse and celebrity entitlement in the 70s ... and how on the other it's really yet another story of violence against women that at times feel depressingly like they'll always be with us. At the same time, I can only hope that today people would not only know a situation like this was wrong but have the strength and support to stop it from happening. Or better yet, resist enabling dangerous guys like this from the get go. 

He always struck me as a Phil Spector sort. That is, a so called eccentric dogged by such infamy that he seemed capable of even the things people didn't explicitly know about.

At the same time, I can only hope that today people would not only know a situation like this was wrong but have the strength and support to stop it from happening. Or better yet, resist enabling dangerous guys like this from the get go.

i keep thinking about kesha and dr luke

He's def a Spector type albeit far less talented.

Xp

Now there's a understatement if ever there was one.

"At the same time, I can only hope that today people would not only know a situation like this was wrong but have the strength and support to stop it from happening. Or better yet, resist enabling dangerous guys like this from the get go."

R Kelly seems like the obvious example of similarly inclined person who was/is heavily enabled....

But mostly this

Cool story subsequent to that photo. From http://runawaysstories.blogspot.com/2009/08/march-23-2000-chopper-magazine-and-case_27.html (an archive of Jackie Fox's old website before it went down)

In 1976, our manager had the great idea to have Chopper Magazine do an interview and photo spread with us and put us on the cover. The photo shoot took place on a new freeway under construction in Los Angeles, on a blistering hot day. The photographer wanted the two blondes in the band on the bikes, so Sandy and Cherie sat on the choppers and also ended up alone on the cover. The picture below appeared with a number of others on the inside of the magazine along with our interview.

Cut to several months later in Connecticut, where my uncle (my father's brother) is working as a civil litigator. He has been referred a case representing couple of Hell's Angels, who have come to my uncle's posh offices in Bridgeport to meet their new lawyer. Needless to say, the sight of a couple of large, tough-looking, leather-clad bikers waiting in the lobby of a respectable East coast law firm must have been something. The bikers must have looked really tough because my uncle, no shrinking violet himself, was REALLY nervous about how they were going to react to all the lawyers in suits. To break the ice, my uncle mentioned that his niece had just appeared in Chopper Magazine. It turned out that bikers had read the issue and were impressed that their new lawyer was related to one of the teenagers that had just appeared in the cover story of their favorite magazine.

My uncle got the case, the bikers got their day in court, and The Runaways reached a whole new set of fans we might not otherwise have had.

Elvis, you always have a nugget of awesomeness that cheers me up

We neec to erect an ILX official Elvis Telecom
Library of Amazing Arcana

*need

(via Ned on twitter)

Kari Krome's statement, from Evelyn McDonnell's blog

https://populismblog.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/kari-krome-on-kim-fowley/

https://www.facebook.com/jackie.fox.5492/posts/10153467592214241

If I am disappointed in one thing, it is that the story has become about who knew what when and who did or didn’t do what. That isn’t the story at all. It would be nice if everyone who was there the night I was raped could talk about how it has affected them over the years. But if they don’t want to talk it about, I respect that. It’s taken me years to talk about it without shame. I can only imagine what it must have been like to have watched it happen.

I only wish that if my bandmates can’t remember what happened that night – or if they just remember it differently –they would stick simply to saying that. By asserting that if they’d witnessed my rape, they’d have done something about it, they perpetuate the very myth I was trying to dispel when I decided to tell my story. Being a passive bystander is not a “crime.” All of us have been passive bystanders at some point in our lives.

If we have any hope at all of putting an end to incidents like these, we need to stop doubting the accusers and start holding rapists, abusers and bullies accountable. What we don’t need to do is point fingers at those who weren’t to blame for their actions.

The other 'focus' has been on how much KFowley was a "weird creeper dude" (like Savile), which seems to suggest that if they'd been more like Clark Gable, it would have been harder to believe.

I used to work for Fowley's record label in the 1990s and yeah - I'm pretty sure it was me who made the first Kim Fowley webpage. I feel like I've eaten a bucket of ashes but there's no way I'm making this about me.

Everyone knows this but SoCal in the 70s was rife with older men preying on teen girls. Don Henley was even briefly arrested for it! Page, Polanski, even a very famous and respected writer, you name it. Open season.

I was thinking about that, because I saw Almost Famous for the first time recently and was struck by how (at least a little ambiguously) romanticized and normalized that notion was

Found that post from Jackie Fox to be very heartening

Yeah, the documentary version of Almost Famous would look like Romper Room on acid.

Yeah, I mean, this scene, where she admits she's 16, is both weirdly touching but definitely uneasy. Especially since she and the band(s) have already been involved for some time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkEQ_bvbny4

I don't remember anyone making a big deal about her age in the film. That's just "how it was."

That wasn't just in LA and wasn't just in the music biz, but that's a good example of how the "sexual revolution" was primarily an opportunity for men to be skeezy fucks as opposed to women exercising agency over their own sexuality.

Almost Famous is hot garbage and its sexual politics are a big reason.

the whole concept of groupies is something people talk about like it's totally nbd. i find that type of objectification really disturbing, esp when it's presented as one of the only entry points of young women to being involved with music. like imagine being a 13 year old just getting into learning about music and finding out that people like you were primarily known as sex bunnies. it's…i don't even know what it is. i think things are quite different now, but even as late as my own adolescence, it was a common narrative. i read pamela des barres' book because i thought it would help me learn stuff but the stuff it helped me learn was not helpful.

I think AIDS and lawsuits put a slight damper on that scene, but if anything what's left over has gotten even darker, because the predatory artists have I think taken greater care to formally cover their paths, like conventional predators vs. nbd, this is how we roll romanticised rock stars. But it is horrifying, to read the salacious oral histories of Motley Crue, or Zeppelin, or whomever, for entertainment and titillation, yet realize that at the very least due to the prevalence of drugs and alcohol and general cultural look the other way-ness that what we know about is just the tip of the iceberg and that felonious behavior abounded/abounds.

Feels like this is more a by product of the Hollywood machine than the sexual revolution to me. Stories of this nature were coming out of Hollywood as early as the 30s (okay maybe not NYE rape stories, but certainly similar tales of exploitation/abuse/cover up.)

Girl 27 is a 2007 documentary film about the 1937 rape of MGM movie extra Patricia Douglas (1917-2003), the front-page news stories that followed, and the subsequent cover-up of the entire event.

As if on cue....

Hippy movement definitely allowed multifarious creeps to exploit young women, look at Manson, for one.

Feels like this is a thread derail, but creeps/cultists are always exploiting people. Manson would have likely figured out a means to find participants wherever/whenever.

don't listen to Little steven's underground garage, because it's boring and he's a supreme asshole regularly and smugly inveighing against anything outside of his rockist agenda (man, 30 years ago, your goal was to end apartheid, and now you complain that kids don't play and listen to music the right way), but I happened to stop on it accidentally, and there was Kim Fowley's show, with him talking about the youngbloods or something…maybe someone at Sirius/XM should see to it that they don't play those shows anymore…heaven knows they have 100s of hours of Giorgio Gomelsky etc etc…

Re LL's "Imagine being a 13 year old": this is played out very explicitly in, of all things, School of Rock. (I'm at the library right now, and can't check the wording of the exchange--hopefully there's nothing that can be misconstrued, as I'm breaking my own pledge to stay clear of these threads at all costs.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHtTRUC2Drs

Feels like this is more a by product of the Hollywood machine than the sexual revolution to me. Stories of this nature were coming out of Hollywood as early as the 30s (okay maybe not NYE rape stories, but certainly similar tales of exploitation/abuse/cover up.)

― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Monday, July 13, 2015 10:33 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe so: http://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/loretta-young

(buzzfeed longform, before you ask)

There's a Fowley interview done for Ugly Things magazine where he definitely frames things in terms of the sexual revolution. I won't quote from it - it's online.

I can definitely see Fowley framing (and excusing) things in that fashion. Just not sure how credible a reading it is.

I don't think the issue is whether it's credible, it's that the wide availability of contraception and the whole idea of women's liberation gave a lot of creeps a cover story. C'mon baby, loosen up, get in touch with your body, blah blah blah. The sexual revolution was real and necessary, but just destigmatizing extramarital sex without altering massive existing power differentials meant that lots of bad things were going to be justified (however dishonestly) in the name of freedom.

C'mon baby, loosen up, get in touch with your body, blah blah blah

"... why are you being so uptight and bourgeois?"

There's a whole chapter about this in Jonathon Green's "Days in the Life", about the UK underground in the 60s/70s.

real short hop from that to "you look tense, lemme rub your back"

I read a story a few years ago, maybe by Rob Lowe (?) about how being a teen in the 70's in LA was like being a pack of stray dogs (at least for some kids of wealthy families) - parents so burned out, disillusioned & self medicating to the point where they are completely checked out & the kids become free range mini adults because there's zero supervision & so much more trouble that you could get into in LA in those days, because of that permissiveness hangover

You mean, "the good ol' days"?

Basically the parents of the free range "what's the worst that can happen?" parents.

ie Robert Downey Sr.

parents so burned out, disillusioned & self medicating

altho really isn't LA still like this

It's the plot of Less Than Zero, right?

Foxes obvs!

lol

Foxes is such a weird movie

LA is still "like this" in terms of neglectful burnt out parents and children with too much money, but between uber and rehab society has definitely created some buffers since the 70s

yeah i didnt mean it was unique to LA,just that it was more heightened bcz of the 60's freelove burnout

real short hop from that to "you look tense, lemme rub your back"

― La Lechera, Monday, July 13, 2015 8:38 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^ a favorite line of creeps who want to creepily creep their hands up against the side of your boobs as recently as the early '00s (the last time I was single).

"I don't think the issue is whether it's credible, it's that the wide availability of contraception and the whole idea of women's liberation gave a lot of creeps a cover story."

Right and I'm not sure I find this terribly credible. I think Fowley's perceived industry influence was the "cover story" (as it is for most "creeps" of this type before and after).

When I said that, in that interview, he frames things in terms of the sexual revolution, I didn't mean that he was explaining himself in terms of the revolution's rhetoric. I simply meant that he speaks of the period favorably for some of those reasons.

Carl thx for bringing the clarity :)

re: "sexual revolution" vs "hollywood", this isn't a binary - power and cultural trends can both be exploited

I suppose folks were hoping for an Evil Stig Joan - the one who spoke out about Mia Zapata and not the one who covers that Gary Glitter pedo song and speaks through Kenny Laguna press releases/lawsuits.

Was Glitter a known child molester when she covered that song? More disgusted by dumbass companies who were still using it in adverts as late as a couple of years ago....

Reading up reminds me it was used in the biopic which shows pretty poor judgment on the part of all concerned frankly.

When was Glitter not a known child molester lets be honest. Pedo themes all thru his peak hits.

In fairness I think 99% of America doesn't hardly knew who he is but just recognizes the nah nah nah hey! song from sporting events

Glitter was a known child molester earlier this year when she was playing "Do You Wanna Touch Me There" in concert.

can we not with Gary Glitter

Maureen Herman's piece is really really excellent:

http://boingboing.net/2015/07/13/the-jackie-fox-rape-disclosure.html

wow

it makes me question some of my own reactions and I don't know that I 100% agree with all of it but fuckin excellent regardless

definitely cuts to the heart of the discussion

maureen herman's point about triggers for anger really otm -- that's why i posted about the backlog of rape kits. i'm glad that the backlog came to light, but it took determined reporting, relentless lobbying of state and local politicians, and unmeasurable amounts of emotional stamina to get them tested, finally. then, among other things, some women who had been raped in the early 90s got a call in 2014 that their rapist had -- finally!-- been identified. not only that, but they found over 200 repeat offenders/serial rapists. imagine how much trauma could have been spared. i'm angry that in my lifetime we are still not at a point where the law supports rape victims. i'm super pissed about it. i'm glad it came to light, but i'm super pissed it took so long. here's the interview with terry gross (with a transcript) -- http://www.npr.org/2015/05/19/407766821/reporting-on-rape-kit-backlog-leads-to-new-law-and-arrests-in-ohio

i'm pissed about kim fowley and joan jett, and i'm pissed that this happened to the runaways but more than anything i'm pissed that even if a victim does everything within their power, the power invested in the state to prevent rapists from raping doesn't have their back. that's fundamentally wrong.

booming post

ty

Evelyn McDonnell interviewed in Salon about the Fox story:

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/13/id_known_there_was_a_possibility_this_had_happened_runaways_biographer_evelyn_mcdonnell_on_rape_charges/

Need more interviews like that, and the Maureen Herman article

I just want a flood of this stuff that will disrupt or at least interrupt the monolithic conventional 'wisdom' that's out there

The story presents the victim as a sparkling, pure adolescent girl who was destroyed by a sexual assault, which is exactly what rapists want to accomplish. There is a lot of literature out there now that says that re-inscribes the act of rape. It gives the rapist the power again.

this is so otm

there's something i don't like abt cherkis w/r/t this piece

I'm hesitant to hit Cherkis too hard over this. Writing a piece like this had to have been an absolute minefield. You have 40 years of time past and differing recollections.

You have members of the band and entourage who likely feel complicit in the crime and/or in covering it up.

You have the optics and practicalities of at least two big stars who were part of the story – at least one of whom owes some chunk of her reputation to the accused.

You have the whole aesthetics of the band in the first place which was predicated on sexualizing young girls – and parents who let them go along with it.

And you have, as Cherkis has noted, the Rolling Stone clusterfuck, the true fallout of which we still probably don't understand as of yet.

All things considered, I think he did okay with this piece. I agree that it paints this picture of innocence being violated and possibly irreversibly tarnished. But isn't that, ultimately, what Fox herself says happened here?

That's another minefield with rape pieces in the media – not only are you trying to tell the truth and unmask the perpetrators but you are also becoming part of the victim's healing process itself. Hopefully making it better, but perhaps not.

Who is to say what the *right* approach is here? As a rule, I'd defer to the victim as they seem to have the most on the line. But as the RS piece showed, there are tremendous limitations and drawbacks to that approach.

There IS a right approach though! and it's been pretty clearly explained by these 2 women, both who know the Runaways

I think the tendency to write for the "story" and not for the person/people involved is what is problematic

I have more problems with the article now than at first, bc it took a while to process it all. But I was very jarred and annoyed by his barbs directed to the other runaways, turning into an us vs them split

It's not complicated to write about if you put the women first, if you are reflective enough to understand that the instinctive way to write about it may not be the best way. Shit gets a lot simpler if you serve THEM and not the story.

there seems to be a bit of paternalistic condescension from cherkis towards the others in the band, this "disappointment" in how they supposedly acted, even though it's obviously something that was traumatizing to all parties and everyone handles things in different ways and if there were drugs and alcohol involved combined with the PTSD, who knows what anyone actually remembers or is totally clear on?

I know the term may be seen as more of a buzz word but there is value in this instance having a writer who is an ally, who will help to speak *when they cannot articulate* - rather than a mouthpiece who says what "should" or "needs" to be said

what problems do you all see in the piece itself?

I don't disagree with you VG--I'd have to go back to see just to what extent Cherkis's authorial voice shames the other Runaways--but I do wonder if showing the behavior of the Runaways in the wake of the assault, with all the negative aspects, isn't an important act as well...? In a lot of ways this us a really peculiar situations--as many itt have noted, in a lot of ways the band itself could have only existed under a very specific set of circumstances, the particular time and place being only two of which--but in a situation where the manager assaults one of the band members in front of at least two other members, only for the rest of the band to end up identifying with him rather than her: to me, showing that is kind of crucial not only to convey the extent of the manipulation and exploitation and intimidation that these girls are subject to at the hands of Fowley, but ultimately to show how identification with the assailant was in fact another manifestation of the trauma. I do think that's where the article ends up, and I wonder if it would be obscured had the other hirls been portrayed in a more sympathetic light...

Otoh, I think McDonnell is otm about how Cherkis sentimentalizes Fuchs at least a little, which obscures the story in its own way. And obviously this terrible clickbait culture needs to bring some sort of salacious finger-pointing element to the surface, which nakes any kind of trafficking in ambiguity pretty much impossible. Cherie Currie doesn't appear to have found any redeeming aspect in the way she has been represented in the article so idk

Anyways, this was just what kind of came to mind when I read today's posts, what do you think VG?

No offense but I'm not really one for digging in? idk

I have said how I would have preferred Cherkis to handle the article and honestly it falls pretty much in line with what has already been said by Evelyn McConnell - and tbh she says it better than I could hope to articulate anyway

Ultimately he did help bring Jackie's story to light and that we can have the conversation at all is a good thing so I'm not gonna take to the rooftops over it or anything

Short version: I would be out of my depth if I dug in at any great length :)

i hope that didnt sound dickish

lol i blarp & livejournal all over this fucking thing uninvited & someone asks for my thoughts on an actual thing NOW i say no

yeah youre welcome

You're allowed to set boundaries over what you're willing to discuss on this issue!

blarp

somehow I didn't think this thread would be the one that put Paul Blart: Mall Cop 2 into my head and yet here we are

Lol

My response from your first post didnt go through!

(right on, my word count is probably way out of proportion of the crucialness of my perspective to the discussion. I just hope I didn't cause offense)

VG the only reason I was engaging with you about my thoughts was bcz you've been such a beacon of otm about this both here & on FB

I know, and I feel bad bcz I see myself itt running solely on knee jerk energy & emotional reaction rather than deep intellectual understanding & i guess I get afraid of being called out as a fraud when it turns out I dont have many good opinions or thoughts when u scratch the surface

hi: Veg Blarp Baggage Cop

Larger thoughts from Ann Powers:

http://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/07/15/422964981/the-cruel-truth-about-rock-and-roll

Veg Blarp Baggage Cop

lolol

i guess I get afraid of being called out as a fraud

I will fight anybody who does this.

Xp to VG: I def never thought you were being kneejerk at all; dismissing Jett and Currie as evil seemed more knwejerk to me. It seems to me like every position you've taken has been very thoughtful and I was only trying to continue in that same vein of thoughtfulness

aw thx

In other news...that Ann Powers piece is really something

What seem to have been accepted so much that its been lost sight of..

That if any of the band had acted or done something, that meant the Runaways end right there.

None of the band wanted that to happen.Yes, eventually, they got it together to leave him and continue, but the damage was still there.

But, effectively, they had no choice.

That Ann Powers piece is great.

Yeah, the comments are especially bad, though.

mention of Lori Maddox reminded me how weird it is that some of the women in that scene came away with nothing but good vibes - like, she's never spoken of her relationship with Jimmy Page in anything other than positive terms (at least as far as I can tell)

And sometimes the men involved are so blatantly transgressive that they become pariahs: when thirtysomething metalhead Ted Nugent became the legal guardian of his teenage lover in the 1970s, all the while recording songs like "Jailbait," it added to his reputation as a truly unstable character.

Holy shit I didn't know this. Also not enough of a pariah, clearly.

yeah god as if you need more reason to be grossed out by the Nuge, there it is

oh there are so many reasons

http://www.feelnumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/stevenjulia13dx.jpg
she's 13 it's cool, bbs.

his bringing up the kitty genovese case was a bad look. that whole 38-witnesses-who-did-nothing story has been pretty roundly debunked. editor/fact checker should have caught that.

🗻
she's 13 it's cool, bbs.

16 and his ward, but what's the difference really? What a fucked up time this was:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-light-of-the-world-the-steve-tyler-and-julia-holcomb-story

Bonus points for a bizarre and unexpected Bill Cosby appearance in her story.

is that ann powers piece really good? I can't get past the first paragraph's shoehorned song references.

Last week, a story about Jackie Fuchs, centered around her account of being raped by the late music entrepreneur Kim Fowley in a motel room full of people on New Year's Eve in 1975, challenged the very idea that rock and roll is something worth loving. Fuchs's account hit the music world like a bomb that obliterated all taste of cherry from our mouths,

I mean, those bolded bits above belong in Rolling Worst Music Writing thread imo

I don't know about the phrasing, but this story definitely made me rethink a lot of the rock&roll mythology / self image of rock&roll

the cherry bomb pun seems unfortunate

Not sure why Iggy, Bowie, Johnny Thunders never get mentioned, is it because critics like them?

She said she named the examples listed off the top of her head without doing research so maybe Iggy, Bowie, and Johnny Thunders weren't located at the top of her head.

Also yes probably that's why they don't get mentioned.

i was reading the holcomb story and getting increasingly surprised by how it turned into a paean to pro-life + then i looked at the url

Ann Powers piece *is really good, god though someone should have subbed that first paragraph

I think the Ann Powers article does a good job of putting Kim Fowler in the larger context of rock and roll at the time, but I think you need to look at an even bigger context and look at it in the context of how women were treated generally in the US at the time. Like, women legally couldn't get credit cards without a husband to co-sign for them until 1974 (so the year before the Runaways were formed). States could make it illegal for unmarried women to get birth control until 1972. Women could legally be excluded from juries solely on the basis of them being women until 1975. It was legal to fire, refuse to hire, or generally discriminate pregnant women in the realm of employment until 1978. So adult women were basically treated like children, which is something you can definitely see in advertising of the time as well. And when you blur the line between women and girls, you get shit like this:

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2010/10/18/6/enhanced-buzz-10341-1287396425-2.jpg

Which is a point Cherkis made - that it was more acceptable for adult men to prey on young women in the 70s, but I attribute that to adult women being viewed as children, and if all women are basically children, what does it matter how old she really is?

So depressingly true

Good context. Can I just say though, my wife really does drive like that. I wore the finish off the oh shit bar in her last car. I'm making a note about those tires.

...

good pt carl

sorry, it was an ill-considered joke. Must have been channeling my father-in-law or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_tom65LKiE

Age: 14.

Brooke's exploitation began much younger - it's insane that she's a naked sex object in "Pretty Baby". you know, a nostalgic, romantic bildungsroman about a 12yo prostitute (written by a woman!) that I'm appalled even got made. baffled that it was even legal at the time.

if this is turning into a discussion about exploitation can it be moved elsewhere? i mean generally i am pointing the finger at the concept of objectification, and even listing examples of severe objectification as exploitation seems...exploitative under the circumstances.

speaking of, this conversation has reminded me of Beyond the Valley of the Dolls

fair enough

i was reading the holcomb story and getting increasingly surprised by how it turned into a paean to pro-life + then i looked at the url

I thought the same thing – but given the nature of the story, I wasn't entirely shocked it ended up there. The whole thing was depressing and manipulative.

To pull this back to rock, the internet is full of these stories. Pamela Des Barres' Lets Spend the Night Together documentary from VH-1 is on YouTube in its entirety, with bits from Lori Maddox talking about losing her virginity to Bowie at 13 or so and Cassandra Peterson (ne. Elvira) fleeing the room when Jimmy Page was trying to rape her. There's the whole saga of Sable Starr and the Stooges, a lot of which is covered in Please Kill Me.

To VG's point way upthread, once this all goes from "Hey, things sure were crazy back then" to "Dudes were raping girls and getting their parents to sign over legal custody of these girls" it begins to change how you perceive this whole era. Punk doesn't seem any more enlightened or liberated than the dinosaurs they ostensibly replaced.

what do you mean by "punk" there - I can't recall any similar stories about, say, the Clash or Blondie or Black Flag or the Go-Gos for ex.

Johnny Thunders + Iggy more than punk.

"Punk doesn't seem any more enlightened or liberated than the dinosaurs they ostensibly replaced."

There were definitely dinosaurs among the punks (or specifically people who aspired to the same sort of "rock star"-life as the dinosaurs).

I don't know about the Black Flag years specifically, but I remember one Rollins spoken-word tape where he tells this "funny story" about a girl who wouldn't do him, so he jacked off on her in her sleep.

And I haven't seen it, but according to descriptions I have read, the infamous Go-Go's tape features them penetrating a passed-out dude with a vibrator.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was more sexual violence in the punk scene.

I have been thinking a lot about Lori Maddox

I think that the problem with rock n roll success and stardom & the sexual power it affords/afforded to men is that for these v young girls there isnt always a vocabulary for it being wrong dangerous illegal and horrible bcz it falls under the umbrella of "attention" --- and there isnt a way to even talk about the dangerous illegal horrible - she begins her confessional with the words "Jimmy Page" & any wrongdoing disappears because he is a guitar god end of story

You know? Like even her own perception of him if she is a fan becomes distorted, this must be ok because the world has made him into Jimmy Fucking Page & he must be right because why else would they make him famous

idk a lot about her but I am just thinking this through in the mind of being 14

I don't know about Jimmy Page but I would have willingly gone along with Robert Plant when I was 14, and who knows whether I'd have the... whatever it requires to look back on that as an adult and call it out for the exploitation that it was.

yeah some kind of Stockholm Syndrome variant

"I wouldn't be surprised if there was more sexual violence in the punk scene."

Uh I would pretty surprised actually if there was more sexual violence (and exploitation) than in the previous era.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was more sexual violence in the punk scene.

I'm thinking back primarily to We Got the Neutron Bomb (which, btw, does include Fowley and the Runaways but does not, iirc, address Fuchs' rape) and once people like X, the Germs, Black Flag, the Weirdos, etc. were on the scene yeah it just doesn't seem like this creepy predatory sexual atmosphere permeated everything as it did a few years prior. a lot of the women are more assertive, openly hostile/aggressive in their own right, and there's a different kind of asexual/gender confusion/queer strain running through it, and the previous generation is (with a few exceptions lol Ray Manzarek) largely despised and scorned for their gross "rock star" ways.

Forgot about that Go Go's thing. That's a pretty sordid tale.

I think there was less 14 year old girl exploiting, but it would be extremely naive to paint the punk scene (any scene that is cast as primarily masculine, assertive women aside) as some kind of safe space where women were free of sexual violence.

even the Go-Gos incident cited above (I haven't seen the tape either) is kind of unprecedented/unthinkable in the previous era of just a few years prior, none of the Runaways were in a position of strength/authority that would have allowed them to sexually assault one of their roadies or male fans. (not that either scenario is a good thing! obviously) just that the politics of the scene def shifted.

xp

I don't think of the punk scene - particularly the LA and british punk scenes - as primarily masculine tho

certainly hardcore turned into that in the mid-80s but between '77-'82 or so? nah

Uh I would pretty surprised actually if there was more sexual violence (and exploitation) than in the previous era.

Not "more than", just extra unearthed.

Stuff that hasn't come to light.

like the last bazillion years of human history
i think it's safe to say that where there is objectification, there will be exploitation (and sometimes violence)
there is not a safe zone afaik, and if there is one please tell me where it is

yeah can't really argue w that

ll otm

And what changes?

http://flavorwire.com/528083/pop-punk-keeps-forgiving-sexual-harassers-to-the-detriment-of-its-teen-girl-fanbase

Fuckin' Front Porch Step. There was another one from the Warped Tour crowd last week as well, I think.

this photo

https://flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/front-porch-step-warped.jpg?w=728&h=489&crop=1

there was also the story recently from the bass player for Enabler, which is awful

http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/07/13/former-enabler-bassist-accuses-frontman-of-physical-and-sexual-abuse-band-goes-on-indefinite-hiatus/

That's what I was thinking of - Enabler. But regardless, searching "sexual assault" on the AltPress website brings up a number of recent allegations.

A few years ago (2011) I went on tour with the band A Day To Remember (Florida pop-punk with heavy parts) in the UK, for an AP cover story, and we talked a bit about the fact that the majority of their fanbase was 15-17 year old girls. They were very careful about how they spoke, and acted, with/around the girls. Never anything but polite and friendly. It was even weirder for me, since they were in their mid-20s and I was six months shy of 40.

how is McElfresh a real name?

and the previous generation is (with a few exceptions lol Ray Manzarek) largely despised and scorned for their gross "rock star" ways.

Which is especially rich given what a fucking sexist he was ("women shouldn't be in bands" or something to that effect)

I'm thinking back primarily to We Got the Neutron Bomb (which, btw, does include Fowley and the Runaways but does not, iirc, address Fuchs' rape) and once people like X, the Germs, Black Flag, the Weirdos, etc. were on the scene yeah it just doesn't seem like this creepy predatory sexual atmosphere permeated everything as it did a few years prior. a lot of the women are more assertive, openly hostile/aggressive in their own right, and there's a different kind of asexual/gender confusion/queer strain running through it, and the previous generation is (with a few exceptions lol Ray Manzarek) largely despised and scorned for their gross "rock star" ways.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, July 16, 2015 5:06 PM (Yesterday)

this is definitely the sense i got of the UK punk scene from jon savage's england's dreaming. i haven't read viv albertine's book yet but i'm curious what her perspective was.

THEY BEAT ME WITH A BOARD
IT HURT JUST LIKE A SWORD

oh my GOD.

As I was getting DUSTED
I happened to get BUSTED

you don't sing and dance in juvie, honey.