how would you explain the sexism and misogyny common to much hip-hop?

So if this isn't unique to Hip Hop, where does the question go?

To explore the subject further, you also need to consider the role-playing or performative aspects of music. Do the records reflect a real or exaggerated version of the way men and women relate to each other in real life? There's a "battle of the sexes" meme running through Hip Hop which isn't necessarily quite the same as sexism. Aside from the language, the idea is usually "Women are only out to exploit us" which is often countered by female rappers with "Men are only there to be exploited". I'm not denying your original question, germaine, I just think that the issues are much more complex when you start to look into them. I think a more interesting question might be "where does this idea of the sexes as adversaries come from, and why is it particulary prevalent in Hip Hop?"

oh come on, what about ice cube saying hes gonna kick a pregnant bitch in the tummy on you cant fade me?! or NWA's findumfuckemandflee? of course theyre different sentiments, under my thumb is more insiduous, and i suppose we have to be careful here about saying everything is sexist just cos it says bitch or hoe or that its all degrading when in the context of the song, it might make sense, rather than just be name calling (which is actually less offensive, arguably).....

now however, a lot of those types of songs are as strongo writes above, so unimaginative and totally rote, i have no time for them. im also sick to the back teeth of that stuff these days as they just seem so auto-pilot and rappers just say those things without blinking, which is something ive come to hate just as much as the songs themselves.

people might be getting the same or something similar from crasser more explicit songs that they did from old ones like the stones' under my thumb or whatever, but its still different hearing it explicitly and in your face compared to not being totally sure about it and having to work it out cos its not so obvious.

haha no i think motley crue were (and are) a bunch of real sexist pigs. i just don't get the impression from either their work or interviews that many modern rappers are having much fun with their current uh lifestyle choices.

why would rappers not be having fun? they seem to be living it up.

Miccio was talking about QotSA's "Broken Box" somewhere yesterday. Josh Homme doesn't need to holler Bitch! Ho! to give that song a misogynist slant. Like I said before, Literalism is a poor way of analysing lyrics.

Hey how you doin lil mama? lemme whisper in your ear
Tell you sunthing that you might like to hear
You got a sexy ass body and your ass look soft
Mind if i touch it? and see if its soft
Naw i'm jus playin' lets just say i can
And im known to be a real nasty man
And they say a closed mouth dont get fed
So i dont mind asking for your head
You heard what i said, we need to make our way to the bed
And you can start usin' yo head
You like to fuck, have yo legs open all in da butt
Do it up slappin ass cuz the sex gets rough
Switch the positions and ready to get down to business
So you can see what you've been missin'
You might had some but you never had none like this
Just wait til you see my dick

Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Wait til you see my dick
Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Imma beat dat pussy up
Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Wait you see my dick
Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Imma beat dat pussy up

Like B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM,
B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM,
B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM

Beat da pussy up, Beat da pussy up,
Beat da pussy up, Beat da pussy up,
Beat da pussy up, Beat da pussy up,
Beat da pussy
Up, Beat da pussy up

[verse 2]

You fine, but i aint gone sweat ya
See i wanna fuck, tell me whats up
Walk around the club with yo thumb in ya mouth
Put my dick in, take your thumb out
There might be a lil ? to deal with
Wet ? hope they dont spill shit
I keep a hoe hot when i'm puttin' in work
Wanna skeet skeet you bout to get your feelin's hurt
Cuz I'll beat dat cat with a dog
And knock da walls of a broad til she scrawl
Like (OOOOOH!)
Yea something like that, but it depends on the swing of the baseball bat
Fuck a girl on da counter make the
Place fall mats
On the floor she aint screamin she a nut so they crack
Crack...crack
Fuck that bend over imma give you the dick

Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Wait til you see my dick
Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Imma beat dat pussy up
Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Wait you see my dick
Ay girl! wait til you see my dick
Imma beat dat pussy up

Like B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM,
B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM

Beat da pussy up, Beat da pussy up,
Beat da pussy up, Beat da pussy up,
Beat da pussy up, Beat da pussy up,
Beat da pussy
Up, Beat da pussy up

(OOOOOOOH!)

When I last saw AC/DC, they trained the tittycam not just on topless women, but men showing their chests as well. I thought it very funny.

Big-ass woman come up on the deck
With her drawers round her knees and her dress round her neck
She say "Shine oh Shine, if you save poor me
I'll give you all the pussy that your eyes can see"
Shine say "I can see your pussy good, that's true
But they's plenty pussy on land that's as good as you."

[Version of "Titanic" -- toast going back at least to the 1920s. There's lots more, and lots worse, but not that I can quote from memory.)

"Backdoor Man" = Willie Dixon = 1st generation self-consciously "artistic" blues, which deliberately soft-pedaled the nastier stuff.

2. That's what told the Stones it was OK.

3. The Stones were pretty damn misogynistic sometimes. Not just Under My Thumb, but Stray Cat Blues, Bitch, Brown Sugar, Who's Been Sleeping Here, Live With Me, Starfucker, Some Girls . . . . Adjusting for the time period (record companies wouldn't put out records with "bad language"), it was as bad as you could get (although people paid less attention, too). And it was leavened with the occasional Angie. But that happens in hip-hop, too.

4. There is a colossal literature about misogyny in African-American communities -- legacy of slavery, power structure threatened by Black manhood, systematic undermining of Black men's authority by the white community, etc. Not to pardon or forgive, but it's a longstanding, complex problem that certainly predates gangsta rap.

5. In a sense, it's more upsetting that white boys like Jagger-Richards turned African-American misogyny into a meme for cool than that rappers essentially recycle commonplaces from African-American folk culture.

I for one have put many a hip-hop song on to catch a girl, and she usually gives me that glint to say, 'This music has got me, what are you thinking of me, can I ride in your car?'

To which I always say yes of course girl.

The buildup to NWA (World Class Wrecking Crew, CIA, Arabian Prince, etc) was basically Electro that briefly turned into a Beastie Boys ripoff...until Ice T's '6 in the Morning' proved that "street tales" were a viable commodity.

NWA copied 6 in the Mornin' with Boyz in the Hood, Dopeman, and 8 Ball (all written by Ice Cube)...but they felt the need to push it further to make the most of the deal with priority. So where does anyone go when you need to go to the extreme? Nihilism.

50% of Priority era NWA was written BY DOC, who has been very vocal about the fact that he respects women, never gang banged, and has an incredible appetite for reading.

But nihilism eanred a lot of people a lot of money, and paved the way for a long long span of careers.

The real culprit of misogyny to the extreme in rap music history is Luke. He coached 2 Live Crew into becoming XXX-rated after they had failing singles.

Very few remember Revelation, 2 Live, What I Like, and Ghetto Bass, but everyone remember "We Want Some Pussy."

Hit records form genres, and trends within.

Shaft, probably not. But Donald Goines and Iceberg Slim, for example, are still widely read (perhaps more now than when those books originally came out.)

Emo is way more misogynist than hip-hop any day of the week.

Rappers at least love them hoes.

I think Iceberg Slim inspired Ice T and Too Short, who inspired future rappers, thus, Pimp enetered the vernacular of Generation Y as something other than it's literal meaning.

Blowfly is playing Minneapolis next month at the Triple Rock. I'm thinking of going!

He must fit in to this equation somewhere.

With so much drama in the l-b-c
It’s kinda hard bein snoop d-o-double-g
But i, somehow, some way
Keep comin up with funky ass shit like every single day
May i, kick a little something for the g’s (yeah)
And, make a few ends as (yeah!) I breeze, through
Two in the mornin and the party’s still jumpin
Cause my momma ain’t home
I got bitches in the living room gettin it on
And, they ain’t leavin til six in the mornin (six in the mornin)
So what you wanna do, sheeeit
I got a pocket full of rubbers and my homeboys do too
So turn off the lights and close the doors
But (but what) we don’t love them hoes, yeah!
So we gonna smoke a ounce to this
G’s up, hoes down, while you motherfuckers bounce to this

Chorus: repeat 2x

Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
Laid back [with my mind on my money and my money on my mind]

Verse two:

Now, that, I got me some seagram’s gin
Everybody got they cups, but they ain’t chipped in
Now this types of shit, happens all the time
You got to get yours but fool I gotta get mine
Everything is fine when you listenin to the d-o-g
I got the cultivating music that be captivating he
Who listens, to the words that I speak
As I take me a drink to the middle of the street
And get to mackin to this bitch named sadie (sadie? )
She used to be the homeboy’s lady (oh, that bitch)
Eighty degrees, when I tell that bitch please
Raise up off these n-u-t’s, cause you gets none of these
At ease, as I mob with the dogg pound, feel the breeze
Beeeitch, I’m just

Chorus

Verse three:

Later on that day
My homey dr. dre came through with a gang of tanqueray
And a fat ass j, of some bubonic chronic that made me choke
Shit, this ain’t no joke
I had to back up off of it and sit my cup down
Tanqueray and chronic, yeah I’m fucked up now
But it ain’t no stoppin, I’m still poppin
Dre got some bitches from the city of compton
To serve me, not with a cherry on top
Cause when I bust my nut, I’m raisin up off the cot
Don’t get upset girl, that’s just how it goes
I don’t love you hoes, I’m out the do’
And I’ll be

Chorus

Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice (beeotch!!)
Laid back [with my mind on my money and my money on my mind]
Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice (beeotch!!)
Laid back [with my mind on my money and my money on my mind]

Don't Drink and Drive.

Blowfly is playing Mercury Lounge July 10th, and I worked on getting him back here...so I better go!

Stay in school.

I don't know anything about the history of Jagger and Richards or their lyrics, so forgive me if the answer to this question is obvious, but: what makes you think that any misogyny they exhibited was taken from African-Americans?

duh.

My 2¢.

I mean, rock certainly has had its share of sexism as well, particularly within heavy rock. But what is so unusual about hip-hop is, apart from a couple of female stars, it is more or less devoid of people speaking out against sexism. And even more so in the case of homophobia. Sure, I am aware that there are gay rappers out there, but they don't quite sell as much as David Bowie, Freddie Mercury or Boy George, no?

I think darin was saying that its popularity among the masses could be seen in part as the audience/consumer reacting to PCness, not that this was the artist's motivation for making the music. I don't know how true this idea rings for me either, but it's an important distinction.

Rap is a game, a business, and the winners are easy to tell from the losers. Some people would say it's just more honest about the business side of the art. One thing that seems clear is that rap artists are way more in touch with the desires of their audience than your average rock band. When you think of a rock band trying explicity to "reach more people," and they hire Glenn Ballard to write some songs and produce, that doesn't always work b/c for whatever reason he doesn't neccesarily understand what people want.

You know that rock star interview cliche where the songwriter says "A lot of people aren't going to like this record. They just wanted us to make 'OK Computer 2' and that's not what we're about. We wanted to expand and try something new." Well, Jay-Z says, "You want The Blueprint 2? You got it."

xpost

Isn't hip-hop, at least currently, the most pervasive offender in the music world today? If nothing else due to the popularity of the genre as a whole? (i.e. certain sub-genres of metal are probably far more offensive, yet they're not played on the radio and tv all day so it makes sense that we don't care about it as much. This applies to a lesser degree to genres which aren't as obscure as that, but are not as ubiquitous as hip-hop.)

Because like I said, the idea that many people buy music because it's sexist seems faintly risible.

I'd argue that can eventually be traced back to money also.

I think it's disingenuous to suggest that every factor that leads to the sale of, say, an album, is explicitly thought through by the consumer. I doubt many people specifically set out to buy sexist music, but that doesn't mean that aspect didn't have an effect somewhere along the way.

I think these two reality moves mix to an extent in music that has misogynist elements, hip-hop included - for instance in the justifications you used to see sometimes when artists were called out for bitch and ho talk, "oh we're not talking about all women but we're telling it like it is, some women are like that".

So the overt misogyny comes from the self-expression element, and the fact that it's such an in-your-face issue comes, as plenty of people say upthread, from the fact that hip-hop doesn't keep it in a nice little subculture but broadcasts it as part of the mass entertainment unit-shifting drive.

No Romance without finance
No Romance without finance

Boy, nothing in life is free
That's why I'm asking you, what can you do for me?
I've got responsibilities
So I'm looking for a man who's got some money in his hand

Cause nothing from nothin'
Leaves a nothin'
You've got to have somethin'
If you want to be with me

Oh, life is just serious
Love's too mysterious
A fly girl like me needs security

Chorus:
Cause ain't nothin' goin' on but the rent
You've got to have a J.O.B. if you want to be with me

xpost

Does early Rock and Roll possess the same "Will to Expression"? Because offhand I don't think it does, and yet there are obvious similarities: both musics offer perhaps the only chance for their performers to acquire wealth and status, both are mutations (amplifications?) of earlier "folk-ier" music; but the Rock and Roll stars were sold far less as creators than performers.

yeah but except for the name Blueprint 2 doesn't feel very much like Blueprint to me...it's the bloated double, guest appearances, more all over the map stylistically than the original's more focus classic R&B vibe....

http://images.payplay.fm/t/o/topdog/600/topdog.jpg
^^^^^

women are just metaphors for other things like men and drugs, and femenists and ideas, and women who act pmsy

Emo is way more misogynist than hip-hop any day of the week.

Rappers at least love them hoes.

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg)

lyrics like mike jones saying 'back then hoes didnt want me, now hoes be all on me' would seem to suggest rappers werent very successful with women as teenagers or young adults, leading to frustration, resentment, and blue balls
lyrics like mike jones saying 'back then hoes didnt want me, now hoes be all on me' would seem to suggest rappers werent very successful with women as teenagers or young adults, leading to frustration, resentment, and blue balls
lyrics like mike jones saying 'back then hoes didnt want me, now hoes be all on me' would seem to suggest rappers werent very successful with women as teenagers or young adults, leading to frustration, resentment, and blue balls
lyrics like mike jones saying 'back then hoes didnt want me, now hoes be all on me' would seem to suggest rappers werent very successful with women as teenagers or young adults, leading to frustration, resentment, and blue balls
lyrics like mike jones saying 'back then hoes didnt want me, now hoes be all on me' would seem to suggest rappers werent very successful with women as teenagers or young adults, leading to frustration, resentment, and blue balls

gangsta nip?
icey hott?
for real?

http://noisey.vice.com/blog/dear-men-stop-explaining-rap-music-to-women

Being a female rap fan is generally joyous and good. I really mean that, because rap is the best kind of music, and listening to the kind of music that you find best is fun and uplifting regardless of your gender. Sure, rap will occasionally blindside its female listeners with a particularly ugly line or cringeworthy video, but generally the sexism in rap remains at a consistent and manageable level; a fact you’ll no doubt have made peace with if you like to enjoy rap while female—of course rap is frequently sexist: all of pop culture is frequently sexist, because sexism permeates our entire society. No, the cloud on the horizon for female rap fans isn’t a rap-shaped one, it’s a dude-shaped one; and one type in particular: dudes who like to explain to women how sexist rap is.

It's good to see someone write an article that's critical of men explaining things without using the term mansplaining.

Really good piece

She also wrote this really fantastic piece

http://pantograph-punch.com/eat-it-up-and-lay-wit-it-hip-hop-cunnilingus-and-morality-in-entertainment/

I don't think rap has a reactionary view on gender, after all, rappers are by far the kind of musician most likely to work in the kitchen. Ba-dum-tjij.

waiting for a response piece about white feminists who enjoy the consumption of black male stereotypes (not that im saying that *is* whats going on, but it did cross my mind somewhat - hey, im a skeptic).

hey

I think men can be disturbed, offended, or just put off by things like the hampton spouse section of new slaves or odd future's stomach churning lyrics about sexual violence. This doesn't seem like a contradiction, or something men would just pretend to feel in order to boost their feminist cred. I love rap and am sympathetic to the author's exhaustion with men telling her what she should and should not like, and i do agree that racism makes rap a convenient and obvious target, but I also think it's true that overt sexism is more common to rap music than other areas of pop culture (which may have more subtle, insidious forms of sexism!) and i don't think it does any good to anyone to diminish this fact.

when is it ever a good idea to explain to someone why they should not be offended by something?

I also think it's true that overt sexism is more common to rap music than other areas of pop culture (which may have more subtle, insidious forms of sexism!) and i don't think it does any good to anyone to diminish this fact.

but she isn't!

xp Oh n/m I read the article.

I assumed the angle was "dudes mansplaining misogyny to women"

nah it was an article not a Drake mixtape

do love the idea posited in that other article by the same author that lil wayne repeatedly rapping about going down on women makes him a feminist. in a rap context, i know that such a cunnilingual commitment is no small deal, but hey, who knew it was so easy to become a feminist?!

Eh, she isn't uncritical of Wayne in that article though. I liked that article a lot.

i know, and me too (and yes i know it was more tongue in um vagina (sorry) than totally serious)... im tempted to do a 'best rap lines about eating pussy' thread.