Swans: Classic or Dud?

SWANS albums for repeat listens: "Omniscience" is a great live rockgoth thing, as is "Swans Are Dead". "The Great Annihilator" is one of my all time favorite CDs. The recently released "Various Failures" is fantastic. The earlier industrial Swans stuff I can do without.

Newer Michael Gira stuff like "Body Lovers" and "Angels of Light" continue to dazzle and delight in ways similar but different from Swans. I recommend Body Lovers, at least. It's one continuous album with 9 reference points, so you can fast forward or rewind, but there are no breaks in the music. Perfect for zoning out or on the subway. Gets freaky, of course. Angels of Light were fantastic when I saw them live, unfortunately the LIVE cd they released of the show had pretty poor production. The studio release by Angels of Light called "New Mother" was okay, but some of it, though amazingly produced, just bored me.

Them fellers sure can be oppressive, though. That's why I go through phases. In all actuality, I really don't listen to them too much anymore just because it's so depressing. I'd rather be happy.

I have heard few of their albums. Those that I have heard have been among the most negative, miserable, pointless pieces of music that I have ever encountered. No doubt Gira would in some way approve of this reaction. I couldn't care less. Dud.

The Burning World had a few, uh, songs on it. Bet their cult thinks it's a sell-out.

But, it is funny that humorless music can be "hilarious" since "humorous" music can really piss me off- like Ween for instance. Sometimes they're annoying as hell.

(I didn't as I'm working late for this stupid presentation tomorrow therefore I am jealous: did gira scream the word 'mother' at any point during the gig?)

The difference is, Gira and Co. sound traumatized by this discovery, whereas Malice and Pusha T sound like they're doing a gleeful dance.

Being a masocist I especially love the brutal Cop/Holy Money
period - most people would find this stuff horrible, but given
a bit more listening one may be able to experience this amazing
feeling of ? - too hard to describe, but it compliments such
painful things like exercise, washing dishes etc.

Anyone heard the live disc 'Public Castration is a Good Idea'?
This out-heavies anything I've ever heard...

Gira's book THE CONSUMER also so, so recommended.

Utterly, timelessly CLASSIC.

I just mean all the terse little statements of complete hopelessness in the lyrics. I get about three lines in and completely lose my shit.

No, it means you're the right audience.

When I saw Angels of Light play Tonic, he drank a full pint of whiskey in a glass filled from behind the bar and didn't seem in the least bit drunk. After the show, he went and got a refill and mingled like he was at an art opening or something.

His writing is pretty disturbing.

Jarboe seems to have severe mental problems. Oh yeah, and so does Gira.

-- Ficky Stingers (bimble87...), Sunday 1:33 AM. (Bimble...) (later) (link)

best/scariest/best thing ever.
Weird that two completely different Swans C or D threads just got revived a few days apart. Here's the other:
Classic or Dud: Swans

OK...Happy Ned...Did this already...but isn't exactly what I was looking for anyway...

Screw this....

I'm gonna give up on the Swans...

Filth is one of my all-time favorite albums. I'd recommend that one, but it may not be the best convince-me-otherwise album.

Its Aja!

Yeah, hi....

I find it funny that my thread was locked so soon...

Anyway, I was bored and wanted to see what was up in these parts...I really should be getting to sleep though...

I think it's funny that you say "screw this" because Swans have a song called A Screw don't they? Heheh.

Also there is some really fantastic Swans stuff on You Tube. But in all honesty, Swans are not a band I would likely try to argue with someone into liking the way I would, say, Led Zeppelin or even the Fall. I find it perfectly understandable that some folks will never get Swans.

I think it's funny that you say "screw this" because Swans have a song called A Screw don't they? Heheh.

-- Bimble, Monday, May 28, 2007 7:04 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

They do? Gosh...is it any good? Or is it really slow and weird...

Well there are two different versions I found.

This one is a more beefed up version of the album version with horns and a heavy industrial beat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqiEmNaG5QY

This one is a live performance, and more bare-bones, truer to their early material and I prefer it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHES9YAGGkU

Of course this is before they became a lot more listenable, pretty and mellow.

Ok................

Interesting. I'll leave it at that.

I got into the first couple of albums for a while, saw them live, then gradually decided that life was just too short for Gira's schtick. Haven't listened to them for ten years.

I have a promo copy of 'Cop' which was issued to Radio Forth, our local top forty station, a thought that makes me laugh every time I flick past it on the stack.

Aja, you can say you hate it, I don't care! It's ugly music. Soukesian, I think that's part of their appeal that they make you laugh in the end.

Here's something called "Love of Life" from later on when they'd mellowed out more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=girFIccfmBU

Fuckin goths

I took about a 15 year break from them, but lately have been filling in what happened after 1990, and I'm impressed at how consistent they've been, and it's all hitting me with a renewed force. Yeah, they're as funny ha-ha as they are funny strange, but I find that I can't doubt what Gira was reaching for. And when they hit, wow, beat and message and emotion come together equally. And the beauty really does start poking through the ugliness.

Having said that I'm planning to buy some of their shit pretty soon. BUT. They are goths.

Goths perhaps, but of a different stripe. I don't think black clothes are really necessary with them or their fans.

Gosh...is it any good? Or is it really slow and weird...]

or? OR? OR?!?!

have been filling in what happened after 1990

Some of their best and most rewarding work, IMO. I wish somebody would reissue "Die Tur Ist Zu" because I still haven't heard it. Also check out those Gira and Jarboe solo records that Alternative Tentacles did.

part of their appeal that they make you laugh in the end

Yeah, I don't see this happening at all.

I believe this was the second ever thread I contributed to, back in the day (when the earth was young and the seas were hot and the skies were filled with pteradactyles).

SWANS were untouchably brilliant and will always remain so. But GOTHS they are not. Not in the slightest. And I know two ex-Swans who would happily bludgeon anyone who dared refer to them as such.

i always thought swans were funny. and they are one of my favorite bands. in my top four anyway. when i first got internet in 1999 i joined a swans list and i confessed that i always thought that the song failure was really funny. i expected to get yelled at. but nobody yelled. and jarboe agreed that lots of swans had very dry humor too it, but that a lot of people didn't see it. or didn't want to see it. and if you ever went to a swans show you would see these deadly serious fans. they were the ones who loked like the memebers of controlled bleeding. they weren't in it for the funny.

Were Live Skull goths?

x-post

LOTS of goths love swans though. that's why the two get connected. and goths LOVE world of skin and angels of light and jarboe too.

no, live skull were not goths.

or didn't want to see it.

or actually didn't think it was funny maybe - you have to allow for that.

and they were a HUGE influence on goth bands. just as they were on metal bands and all kinds of bands. i like to call swans "traditional folk music".

yeah, i mean, you might think that public castration is a good idea is a funny album title or you might just think that public castration is a good idea. too each his own.

Swans from Circus Mort to Cop is absolutely classic. It's sad the CD versions of Filth and the eponymous EP were remastered so badly, but they're still worth getting.

could you elaborate a bit? Not that I plan on replacing my vinyl, but I'm curious as to what went wrong. Is this also true of the Cop and Children Of God remasters?

Scott's right, it's because lots of goths like Swans that they get tagged that way.

The remasters are cleaned up with reverb added and EQ bent toward the ends. If you've heard original Teenage Jesus or Mars vinyl and compared it to the CDs of the same, it's a similar effect, although not quite as reverb-chamber-in-hell as it is on the TJ remasters.

I don't know whether the Cop remaster has a similar issue, since I don't have it, and I'm not sure whether I have a remastered or original Children of God.

Thanks. That TJ&TJ remaster gets my vote for "worst job ever", so I'll steer clear of the Filth CD.

which version of filth is supposed to have this problem? the single cd jewelcase one from a long time ago or the somewhat more recent 2cd reissue?

Here's 25 seconds of a track from the Filth/body to body, job to job double CD:

http://rapidshare.com/files/33942016/filth_reissue_-_06_-_Right_Wrong__25_second_clip_.mp3.html

hope this helps?

Live Skull were VERY decidedly NOT goths. Hurrumph!

I have the Zensor vinyl version of 'Filth' - always thought it was meant to sound, well, filthy. What would/does cleaning it up reveal - the melodies?

Alex, they had a heavy goth streak

just because it's really really good doesn't mean it's not goth man

which version of filth is supposed to have this problem?

My CD from around 1990 is poorly-mastered. I dunno about any later versions.

Would it really be SO bad if your favorite band turned around and said "Yeah, actually, we were always Goths. At the end of the night, it was always all about getting with those Siouxsie clones. So kill us. The records are still OK though? Aren't they? Aren't they?"

Alex, they had a heavy goth streak

Live Skull? No they fucking didn't.

Look, I LOVE a lot of unapologetically Goth bands -- from Alien Sex Fiend through Theatre of Hate through the Mission through Fields of the Nephilim -- but the fact remains that Live Skull and SWANS simply WERE NOT members of that flock.

Well, at the time, goths sure as hell wanted nothing to do with Swans. This is true. It'd be more apt to call the Misfits goth, 'cause they were loved by every goth in (my) town.

ANYWAY.

i confessed that i always thought that the song failure was really funny.

One of my favorite Swans moments ever -- I'm DJing at KUCI during my grad school years and someone calls me up during finals week or just thereafter. Turns out it's another grad on campus, like me a TA. He goes, "I've been looking at all these student papers and I have a request -- can you play the Swans' "Failure" for them?" And so I did, and I would have also bought him a drink if I could.

As soon as Jarboe joined Swans (the Time Is Money 12") it became fair to call them goth. If you saw them during the Jarboe period you know that was a proper goth throwdown.

Snuffer counts as goth. However, the only evidence I can offer for this proposition is "it sure seemed goth to me at the time, and that is in fact why I bought it."

it became fair to call them goth

If by "fair" you mean "abjectly wrong," then yes.

ilm must've wandered into a wormhole, this is like 2005 all over again

Did anyone else there at the time refer to Swans as "tribal"? Swans, Savage Repubic, (new EP is good BTW), Test Dept, anything with a bunch of blunt percussion we called tribal, tribal industrial. In Pittsburgh, circa 86-89.

Alex I'm older than you, don't make me come over there

Or to be more exact: circa 1985 on the west coast, there was not a goth that lived and breathed who didn't love or at least respect Swans. Their audience was largely goth (still "death rock" in some quarters) people, and industrial lovers who were more or less goths without so much makeup, and some punks. Your crowd defines you, to some extent. Certainly Swans are nothing like Fields of the Nephilim. But their lyrical themes, their relentless darkness, and THAT WOMAN WITH THE GOTH-ASS MAKEUP YOWLING ABOUT THE YUM-YAB KILLERS OR WHATEVER makes them goth whether one likes it or not.

Ah, west coast.

Alex I'm older than you, don't make me come over there

You're older than 39? Bring it on, old man.

Oh, god...old men fighting about what is goth...

OH!! Will you two wear black lipstick and long black trench coats???? Oow. That would be interesting....

guys I totally support the sudden surge of goths on ILX, keep it up 2007

Aja, that's just a FAP invitation.

Um...I feel stupid...what is FAP?...I know I learned this like 2 years ago, but I don't remember what it means....

*Blushes*

"Fancy A Pint" but I don't think the pints are required, it's just a generic term for irl meetings of ILXors.

Ok. Now I remember.

Yes, pints would be appropriate I guess. But I want to watch too...Can I have a Roy Rodgers?

*chuckling trying to imagine Alex in black lipstick*

HAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alex in black lipstick and with EYELINER!

guys I feel like this is an appropriate time to mention that "fap" has never meant anything to me other than the sound of masturbation

Well I've always felt the appeal of the term is that it does also call to mind that meaning. It's a double entendre, and I'm sure many jokes have already been made about it here.

yeah

it was really weird and off-putting for me at first, though, like moving to some foreign land where everyone referred to cars as "cunts" and thought nothing of it

WAHT IS THE HEN FLAP AND WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP ASKING FOR IT???

Wait..."Hen Fap" I've heard that before. What does it mean?

It's the name of the server ILX runs on. Nothing more. Now go about yr bidness, citizen.

Hahah! I see! The things you learn!

LOL @ Ned's story. Once I requested "Raping A Slave" on my hometown college station because it took me forever to find that EP, and after the DJ played it he said "Well, my girlfriend has called me to demand that I never play that song again".

I have so much to say on the topic that it's tempting to say nothing.

as a college dj I did a 3 hour swans show. at one point some guy called up and said "I'm going to come up there and kill you" and then started laughing hysterically. so I got on the mic and dedicated "coward" to him. he didn't call back (or show up, obv).

around '99 gira was selling the master tapes to the labor e.p. on his website. wonder if that's why it hasn't been remastered.

I am still missing one Swans live album in particular -- Anonymous Bodies in an Empty Room. So if anyone has a full burn of it around...

hold on

The hotmail address ILX tried doesn't work, I tried the k**i.*rg one I remembered, is that one ok?

Yup.

the new angels of light is fucking awesome by the way

I love SWANS.

Alex in NYC OTM.

I refuse to be forced to choose between any of their sounds/periods (early! cathartic! melodic! apocalyptic!) though. They all rule in their own way.

Cheers, Alex! I was just thinking of Swans today while walking around outside on my lunch break, funnily enough. I started singing that lyric "Nothing inside you is real" from "You're Not Real, Girl". It was the only thing that kindof shook me out of a bad mood, today.

A few months ago at work, I was immersed in "Holy Money" when my coworker appeared at the door of my cube, grinning. I removed my headphones, and she said, "Didn't you hear the fire alarm? Didn't you leave the building?"

Immolated in a sterile grey cubical, while the coworkers wander off... Would have been a Giraesque way to go.

COP!

The sex in your soul will damn you to hell

Feel Good Now version of "Sex God Sex" is epic.

Feel Good Now version of "Sex God Sex" is epic.

Just to be clear again, Swans were not Goths. Ever.

Classic. Personally their one of the most important bands in regards to what I’m interested in. Children of God and Filth should be in everyones collections.

I'll say it again...

I LOVE SWANS

Just to be clear again, Swans were not Goths. Ever.

While this is technically true, I never knew an 80s goth who didn't have much love for Swans, and Jarboe brought the goth flavor to the stage throughout The Great Annihilator tour. They certainly transcend the genre, but the overlap is pretty undeniable.

Swans are less goth than Killing Joke, but like Killing Joke, they're still only a few steps away from goth proper.

the first two world of skin albums were totally goth. in a good way. i think i talked about the goth/swans thing on some thread. maybe this one. swans/gira still one of the few acts where i love/loved EVERYTHING they/he did. can't say that about too many people. jarboe on her own can be hit or miss (depending on who she is collaborating with), but she's put out some amazing post-swans stuff too.

Scott, have you heard the Blackmouth disc that's her and two of the guys from Trust/Obey? V. good, been a while since I've listened -- might dig it out here tonight!

nope, never heard it. she has lots of stuff i haven't heard. i still want to get her mystery of faith swans/skin comp too. and i'm curious about her men album. had blixa on it and alan from low doing a song with her. i really liked her anhedoniac album. crazy stuff. the early stuff i wasn't that big on. the 13 masks album and the beautiful people ltd. album. kinda patchy.

i liked the neurosis/jarboe album too. i thought that was really cool.

my love is for the Sacrificial Cake album that Alternative Tentacles put out. Anhedonic is cool too, only listened to it once so far. I saw her in a church on this tour:

MOBILIZATION TOUR 2006 (Blixa Bargeld, Jarboe, Savage Republic)

She had a piano player and another guitarist, played some Swans songs even!

also she has great early cassette noise stuff like on the first Dry Lungs comp.

I think it's hilarious the way Alex always feels the need to play Goth Police around here. It's even more hilarious because honestly I don't care if EVERY band is goth, Swans included! But you know, to each his own.

I met a guy last week at my work who had a Neurosis/Jarboe shirt on. Ah, the benefits of no dress code.

While this is technically true, I never knew an 80s goth who didn't have much love for Swans

I knew a bona fide Goth that liked Chris DeBurgh --- does that make Mr."Lady In Red" a goth too, then?

you knew one bona fide goth who liked Chris DeBurgh

you & I both went to Swans shows and saw the places packed out to the walls with goths

in your heart you know I'm right!

"I knew a bona fide Goth that liked Chris DeBurgh --- does that make Mr."Lady In Red" a goth too, then?"

It was late at night on the open road, speeding like a man on the run
A lifetime spent preparing for the journey.
He is closer now and the search is on, reading from a map in the mind:
Yes there's that ragged hill and there's a boat on the river.

And when the rain came down, he heard a wild dog howl
There were voices in the night
(Don't do it!)
Voices out of sight
(Dont't do it!)
Too many men have failed before, whatever you do;

Don't pay the ferryman!
Don't even fix a price!
Don't pay the ferryman
Until he gets you to the other side.

In the rolling mist, then he gets on board, now there'll be no turning back
Beware that hooded old man at the rudder.
And then the lightning flashed and the thunder roared,
and people calling out his name,
And dancing bones that jabbered-and-a-moaned on the water.

And then the ferryman said "There is trouble ahead,
So you must pay me now."
(Don't do it!)
"You must pay me now."
(Don't do it!)
And still that voice came from beyond, whatever you do;

Don't pay the ferryman!
Don't even fix a price!
Don't pay the ferryman
Until he gets you to the other side.

http://swans.pair.com/GALLERY/87/1987jarboe2.html

what happened to mine image, BB code is totally non-goth

http://swans.pair.com/GALLERY/87/1987jarboe2.html

i joined jarboe's swans e-mail list in 1999 and most of the people on it were definitely more on the industrial side of things than the goth side. i have to say, they were almost all very brainy folks who listened to all kinds of music. but definitely HUGE love for the whole current 93/coil/NWW world on there. and also swans-like crescendo-rock like mogwai and godspeed and the like. and godflesh. what you would expect, i guess. probably lots of goth stuff too. i can't remember. beauty = darkness, etc. i have no problem with swans being goth-friendly or goth-identified. call them whatever you like. i prefer the term "freak folk" myself.

The second I hit "submit response," I *JUST KNEW* someone was going to cite "Don't Pay The Ferryman." CHRIS DEBURGH IS A GOTH, OKAY, I ADMIT IT!

I also knew a kid in college who was a total hardcore punk, but also loved Rush -- i.e. DOES THIS MAKE RUSH A HARDCORE PUNK BAND???

The answer: Fuck no.

Look, yes -- Swans' audiences were crawling with Goths, certainly. Does that make the band goth? Not necessarily. I'll admit that Jarboe added an element to the proceedings that leant uncomfortably towards that crowd, but Michael Gira is no goth -- never was, never will be.

At the end of the day, I suppose it really depends on one's definition of "Goth." As far as I'm concerned, wearing black and having a less than cheeful sensibility shouldn't *AUTOMATICALLY* render one a "goth."

Michael Gira is no goth

Well, of course I agree with this; as I say, I think they transcend the label, which carries all kinds of only-and-exclusively-about-itself connotations. But in the goth family tree, they're a near branch - nearer than the Gun Club, say, but a little further out than the Fields of the Nephilim. The old saying about knowing a man by the company he keeps applies. If we wanted to posit a Non-Silly Goth category that would help, but really all we'd be doing is repeating the old saw about 90% of everything being crap. I mean: emo sucks, right? But Rites of Spring didn't suck at all, even though they're emo as fuck.

Fair enough.

i think for almost anything that was at one time labelled "industrial" you've got a goth fanbase of some size. skinny puppy, neubaten, etc.

crescendo-rock

Ha ha! Is Southern Gothic goth? That one's always confused me.

I wonder if anyone remembers "Public Castration Is A Good Idea", another live (and double) album like "Feel Good Now". Strangely I don't remember anything about it at all, except that it had material from the first part of their career. I do remember that the sleeve was gray at its base with yellow and silver put in or something like that. Damn I wish I had that LP now!

I saw someone recently somewhere on the net who said they couldn't concentrate on Cop if they tried or some paraphrased thing like that, and I totally agreed. Cop is hard to bear, even though I love everything else they've done. Except I admit the first EP is a totally different thing and rather dull, as it happens.

yep - just listened to it about a month ago too

http://swans.pair.com/IMG_PRODUCTS/public.jpg

Fuck goddamnit yeah
HOW I MISS THE VINYL!
I MIGHT CRY!

( review by Mr. Ned)

Who doesn't like Cop?!?!?!?

Public Castration... is now quite rare (as are -- sadly -- many albums in their catalog).

...but, I should point out, it can be had it its unwieldly entiretly (sonically, at least) via iTunes.

entirety

Does anybody get made very very sleepy by early Swans (which is so beautiful I could never force myself to listen to the later stuff, I only have an imagined version in my head but some things can't be corrupted). Seriously, Cop is really relaxing, the louder the better, obv.

Haven't listened to it for years, but, yes, I can see what you mean. Works like massage.

I fell asleep at a bus stop once with it on my headphones. I had to walk three hours in the dark to get home (I got cold hitching) with a bag.

probably of interest:

http://www.theomegaorder.com/s.nl/it.A/id.18990/.f

Nice.

Yesterday a copy of Anonymous Bodies sold on eBay for $160...

I couldn't really get in to the J2 album. Not like I got into the Neurosis/Jarboe album. I think I was hoping for more rock and less Justin as beatscaper stuff.

has anybody seen that youtube video where some guy has put Cop to a slideshow of Paris Hilton photos

I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY

Good, innit?

Fuck yeah are you kidding? I'm flipping my lid.

Swans Are Dead is fucking great, one of my favorite live collections ever. nice choice Bimble.!

Cop is hard to bear, even though I love everything else they've done. Except I admit the first EP is a totally different thing and rather dull, as it happens.

this is fucking crazy talk. granted the remixed version on the filth cd is garbage, but have you ever heard the original vinyl release?

Classic!

I remember when I first heard Children of God and I thought it was creepy and I guess 'over the top' but listening right now I only hear the beautiful.

Hi ya people,

I've got these SWANS shows,wanted video shows I don't have

AUDIO
CIRCUS MORT(pre-SWANS) E.P. 1981 20' *

Danceteria,NYC ?-?-84 20Â’

Danceteria,NYC ?-?-84 40Â’

The Roxy,L.A.,CA 14-3-86 45'

LA,CA 21-12-85 30Â’

Burgerhuis,Deventer,Holland 24-2-85 40Â’ CASS

electric banana,Pittsburgh,PA 6-10-83 35'

sin club,NY 1982 50'

the rat,Boston,MA 3-5-86 60'

live at sin club/CBGB/Pyramid club,NY 1982-1983 80'

kitchen,NYC 1982 or 1983 25'

Holy Money Tour,Live in Europe 1986 50Â’

Berlin ?-?-84 5Â’

the loft,Berlin? 24-2-97 75Â’

Amsterdam ?-?-88 50Â’

BRNO radio? 2-9-87 40Â’

Warszawa,Polsnd ?-?-86 or 87 45Â’

Variety Theater,Atlanta 29-1-97 75Â’

Errols,Sweden 21-8-87 20Â’

Ljubljana,Yugoslavia FM radio 16-3-86 or 85 35Â’

At the Limelight,NYC(Great Annihilator Tour) 4-7-1992 90Â’

VIDEO
(V)Paradiso,Amsterdam x-x-1986 40Â’

(V)Philadelphia,PA ?-?-1986 40'(Incomplete) DVD

(V)Holy Money Tour DVD

(V)long low screen (o) 1985 60'(33) DVD

(V)Interview+live acoustic 1985 2 songs,snubTV 10'(51)

(V)24-2-86 Nurnberg,West Germany 50Â’ DVD{10}*

(V)15-8-87 konopf,Music Hall,Hamburg,Germany 15'(97) NTSC

(V)x-x-87 Warsaw?,Poland 55'(97) NTSC

(V)Arena,Vienna,Austria 6-8-88 65Â’ DVD

(V)29-8-89 Reading Fest.,UK 60'(97) NTSC DVD{10}*

(V)21-8-89 PowerHouse,Islington,UK 80Â’ DVD

(V)x-6-89 Arenna,Vienna,Austria 80' (97) NTSC

(V)Los Angeles 1989 or 90?? 30Â’ DVD

(V)15-9-95 Markthalle,Hamburg,Germany 60'(97) NTSC

(V)Paradiso,Amsterdam 13-3-97 70Â’ DVD

(V)Schlachthof,Bremen,Germany 12-3-97 65Â’ DVD

(V)Love will tear us apart clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Love of life clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Skin clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Screw clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Love of Life 1992 MTV Special clips+Amnesia live Edinburgh 14Â’ DVD{10}*

(V)Int.+Live HideawayÂ’s,Toronto 1995? 10Â’ DVD

You know there's a ton of live CDRs for sale here, don't you?

http://swans.pair.com/prod_frameset.html

good taste in music, poor judgment

RIP

Digging this new track!
http://thequietus.com/articles/04724-michael-gira-review-new-swans-album-my-father-will-guide-me-up-a-rope-to-the-sky

This is gonna be real nice I believe....

fragments of all the tracks here: http://younggodrecords.com/Releases/Detail.asp?C=2343

5. You Fucking People Make Me Sick (5:08)

lol

psyched for this

This should be AWESOME. I have very high expectations.

if the album art and this http://new.assets.thequietus.com/images/articles/4724/swans_headshots_large_1280489291_crop_550x532.jpeg are any indication, it's going to be fucking epic

Swans were the most important band of my life in the 80s and 90s and I can't express in words how much this resurrection, which I never expected to happen, means to me.

There's a more active thread here:

Classic or Dud: Swans

I love those headshots, that is one fucking band you don't want to meet in a dark alley.

That top middle photo is *really* like a Lucien Freud painting.

yeah that's Christoph Hahn who played guitar on my favourite Swans album White Light from the Mouth of Infinity.

What the fuck happened to him?! He was fairly handsome 20 years ago, he can't be that old...

top right is actually one of the nicest dudes on the entire planet

bottom middle is a peach too

I love those headshots, that is one fucking band you don't want to meet in a dark alley.

a girl I knew roadie'd for both swans and sonic youth back in their early years, she said the sonic youth van was usually quiet + somber whereas in the swans van they were always cracking up and having a good time

in the swans van they were always cracking up and having a good time

Concur, I was a crew member for Swans in 1997 and a good time was indeed had on the tour bus.

Which one is Thor? none of those guys look like the smiley happy dude I saw playing with Shearwater/

God, I am just so completely out the top of my head with anticipation at seeing them.

Thor is first row, all the way to the right

Is Thor still in Shearwater? They're touring in October and November as well, presumably on the days Swans aren't playing?

saw thor play with lisa germano years ago and it was one of the best shows ever. never saw him with AOL.

new album is so good. not knocking soundtracks for the blind but this is in the same sublime league as white light from the mouth of infinity and love of life. how is this man 56 and still getting better?

pretty much what i said on the other swans thread. not as good as white light or LOL but its got that same sound that i love.

didn't see the other thread. in hindsight those two albums sort of play like akron/family precursors, and working with those guys in angels of light has left its mark on him, for sure. still, i may miss jarboe. no complaints though about this new one whatsoever

it's great. i never really listened to akron/family. like i said on other thread, i respected the AOL stuff and thought it "sounded" great, but i never played the albums much. hearing new swans just reminds me how much i've played my swans albums over the years. the sound is so addictive to me. new album has a little more digital-ness than i like. when i turn it up loud it starts to break up a bit, but i still dig it. in the past, i always thought gira was one of the most underrated producers/arrangers/engineers of sound that i can think of. i never read things where people rave about the sound of the stuff he does - yes, how "heavy" it is or whatever - but i can't think of many people who have made better sounding records over the last 20 years or so. in the "rock" field anyway. and definitely VERY few people in the u.s. that i can think of.

gira's been sort of the eno of the 90s/00s. his talent scouting and producing since swans closed shop is pretty mind boggling, and how silly the ubiquitous devendra can be has kind of cast a pall on the awesome angels of light-akron/family collaborations. but anyways, be that as it may, to my ears this new one amplifies what he's been up to with akron/family. it expands on we are him, takes the gloves off. i'm almost scared to listen to it again

conversely, I can't stop listening to it. f'kn brilliant.

I can't wait to hear it but this is one album I'm not gonna take advantage of the fact that it's leaked. I've been praying and hoping for a new Swans record for 14 years and I'm gonna do it properly this time. go into town on release day, jump on it in the store, read the sleeve on the bus home, and play it loud and alone.

man. just listened to this all the way through. nothing new to add, will join the chorus: it's fucking GREAT. can't wait to see these guys for the first time ever.

was a little skeptical about Devendra Banhart being on a track, but it works wonderfully.

so last night i listened to children of god, after only having heard filth, cop, the young god ep and soundtracks for the blind. so basically i had heard them at their most abrasive and (what must be) their nicest. like, the first swans song i had ever heard, the first track on filth, "stay here," is BURNED INTO MY MEMORY because i was so shocked by it.

children of god is good and all, but i gotta say, it's PUSSY SHIT. their earlier releases imo are heavier and darker than most metal i've heard; children of god isn't the complete shift into post-rock "soundtracks" is; it's the same genre of music, post-punk i guess?, but just generally tamer. there are songs with a goddamn chick singing really sweetly over a piano.

i guess this is a pretty pointless post but i am making it anyway.

Random thoughts:
Gira and Jarboe are 2 of the musicians I could easily imagine being psycho killers.

loool man this is so hilariously true.

oh right i have to say whether i think they're classic or dud. they're pretty goddamn classic. anyone who says otherwise is a fool. their early shit like i said is REALLY impressively dark; so dark, that i've only heard cop and filth maybe twice each, because it is so difficult to listen to. listening to dark music when you're in a dark mood is cool and all, but i've tried this with swans and it just doesn't work for me! it totally hurtles me over the edge.

marc iv, there is nothing on Cop or Greed or Filth that's as completely "you will never forget the first time you listened to this" as "Beautiful Child." imo Children of God is a masterpiece. The harshness of the early stuff is amazing no doubt but nothing hits as hard as "Beautiful Child" the first time, that performance is for the ages.

I'm just pleased somebody's prepared to take a stand on goddamn chicks singing sweetly.

marc iv, pick up a copy of Feel Good Now, which is basically Children of God live. Waaaaaay heavier sound. Granted I heard it first, but the studio lp sounds so neutered in comparison...

is that the one with "beautiful child - the town and country club cowardice backstab" or whatever, the one where the sound guy kills the power to the house but not the monitors and gira just keeps screaming "I WILL KILL/THE CHILD"? because that shit is monstrous

their new album deserves its own thread. more here: Classic or Dud: Swans

wow "your property" is one huge, raging, frenzied destroyer of a song. brutal and unyielding even by the band's impossibly violent standards around that time. apparently this song is going to be re-worked on the upcoming tour. that would be something.

they already reworked it on the 1995 tour

yeah, i'm aware of that. though this tour is going to be the first time i'll see them perform, so i'm anticipating it on a personal level.

They were absolutely stunning at both Supersonic 2010 on Sunday and then in Glasgow on Monday night. I was utterly destroyed. It was crushing and beautiful and masterfully done.

Supersonic 2010:

http://krakow.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v18/p137063609-3.jpg

http://krakow.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v18/p585077464-3.jpg

Arches, Glasgow:

http://krakow.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v13/p789781667-3.jpg

http://krakow.zenfolio.com/img/s8/v11/p1024030397-3.jpg

Probably coming over for Swans/Sir Richard Bishop on Friday. Crüt, J Fever, interested in meeting up?

they were great as usual on Thursday. seemed more, uh, stretched out and jam-y than last year? like fewer recognizable "songs" and more extended workouts. anyway, awesome. Gira's quite an affable guy, isn't he? he was all smiles at the merch table.

i never liked most of their records too much, but they were (are?) exceptionally good live the couple times i've seen them

I interviewed Gira recently; some of it is here, that and more will be in the print edition of Burning Ambulance, soon.

THREE MORE DAYS until my show. It's my first time seeing them. Really excited.

Anxious to hear your report! I really wanted to see that show, but it'll be awhile before I hit up any more concerts.

great interview unperson

trying to imagine public castration era gira saying this, haha

It’s been really rewarding, because people really seem to get something really true from the music.

Gira's a sweetheart, albeit a very, very intense one.

The show was AMAZING. I regret that I overestimated the venue's procrastination, and we got there too late to see Sir Richard, which sucked because he was one of the reasons I was going to the show, but whatever, can't rewind time, etc. Plenty of ladies at this show too, which made me happy.

Swans played for 2.5 hours and everyone was covered in sweat. I was particularly happy that they played "Jim". In general, the performance was primordial and volcanic. At one point Gira called the audience "a handsome bunch of Polacks" and "girls". He seemed pretty affable, though, and very very sweaty.

Swans!

Sounds awesome, glad you enjoyed the show! Pity about missing Sir Richard though.

It was. For some reason it took us over an hour to actually arrive at the venue. Je55e took too long deciding which black tshirt to wear ;)

yesterday's show was decent, but they were much better last year. the songs were way too long and got dull quickly...and I love their brand of minimalism! the opening tune this time around topped last year's easily.

I didn't go to the show last year because I was too cheap. I liked the opening tune too. When Gira said they were going to play two more songs I was thinking we would be there til 3am, but it was only ("only")1am or so. Lots of people left before the encore when Gira put on the hat.

ATP schedule conflict of Swans vs Ultramagnetic MCs and I am totally torn.

x-post
hahah, I had the same thought. I was expecting two more half-hour jams.

what surprised me most about last night's show was how much the crowd seemed to enjoy the band. I got the feeling that their performance was meant to be divisive, in the sense that they were trying to weed out a demographic of the audience (similar to how Michael disliked the metalheads they were attracting during the mid-80s). but the crowd dug it!

hey La Lechera -- I missed Sir Richard Bishop too. Really pissed off about that, actually, and it's not because I was farting around or anything. I checked the Bottom Lounge website earlier in the day, and they had something called "Daniel Knox" listed as the opening band. So I figured that clown goes on for a half-hour, and SRB prolly takes the stage somewhere around 9:45. called the venue at about 9:30 as I was about to depart (trying to decide whether to take a cab or not) and they said SRB actually started at 9:20. So annoying. What, this Daniel Knox played for 10 minutes?

Anyway, great Swans show ... loved the free-flowing improvisatory feel of the whole thing. First song was a 25 minute "No Words/No Thoughts", right? Complete with 15 minute tubular bell intro from Thor, haha. That was amazing. I guess I have more of an appetite for that stuff than Ivan. I thought the whole show was great, longer jams the better!

but yeah, 2 1/2 hour show, sheesh. nowhere near that long when I saw them back in February

oh yeah, and OTM about all the sweat onstage. Bottom Lounge always feels like a sauna, another reason I dislike that place.

You are so OTM about that Daniel Knox business -- what a crock. Part of the reason I went was to see Sir Richard and I totally missed his set? Like, completely? That's messed up.
On the other hand, Thor's intro (and his work generally) was AMAZING and I like super long jams too, that was not really a problem for me (though I was apprehensive when I heard "two more songs", I admit -- they were worth it!). The whole percussion team was part of what made the show so bone-rattling and awesome. By the time I realized what the first song was, I felt like I had already been through the ringer (not in a bad way). I was standing about four people deep on the right hand side of the stage. I would have said hi if I had seen you!

Seeing them tonight (this'll be #11 but the first time since they've debuted new material) with Pelican, Rick Bishop, Horseback, and Secret Chiefs III. Yep, at a festival. Luckily I at least like all of those bands.

Saw this bill in minneapolis on wed, bishop was amazing

re: the heat
I wouldn't be surprised if Gira asked the venue to kill the AC again. those open doors during the encore were fabulous.

I was perfectly comfortable fwiw. Heat didn't bother me in the slightest, but I'm always cold. Going to a show like that and shivering would have sucked.

The swans was an incredible thing. Very glad I went but there were times I was kinda bored

La Lech -- sorry I missed you! i should have dropped you a note to say I was going, would've been nice to say hi (although I got out of there fast given it was 1 AM!)

those that *did* see Bishop, what kind of set did he do? was it the surf-arabic stuff, a la The Freak of Araby? if so, I'll feel better about it, since I saw him tour that

Solo gibson hollow body, clean tone, guitar, some more drone some leaning towards fahey.....so gorgeous. Also did a strange and hilarious absurdist comedy spoken word piece about having sex with his girlfriend wearing a kennedy mask while she was wearing a marilyn monroe mask

o yah that's a Sun City Girls thing from Dante's Disneyland Inferno, love it. they were doing that on the Brothers Unconnected tour too.

(sorry for derail)

devastatingly awesome performance tonight. new stuff is unbelievable.

bishop played electric and smoked as always. killer.

also, I heart secret chiefs

new band is so goddamn locked into the whole thing -- interesting to watch Gira act as 'conductor. anyway, so much fun

OPTIONS TO BUY LIVE 2XCD AND TO HELP SUPPORT NEW SWANS STUDIO ALBUM TITLED “THE SEER” IN PROGRESS:
1. buy hand made web only 2x live swans cd with original signed and numbered woodblock print sleeve made from drawing by m.gira - $30
2. as above AND RECEIVE 2xcd deluxe digi-pack signed version of Swans The Seer immediately upon release: $45
3. as in option 1 AND RECEIVE 2xcd deluxe digi-pack signed version of Swans The Seer, website/tour exclusive package that includes live swans dvd from 2010/11 tours - $55
4. OPTION 3 AND RECEIVE “executive producer” credit in upcoming swans studio album - $100
5. OPTION 3, AND 4 PLUS an original unique drawing by m.gira dedicated to customer (see example below) - $150
6. OPTION 3, AND 4, 5 PLUS be on guest list and meet band for one show on upcoming swans tour(s) 2012/13 - $175
7. OPTION 3, AND 4, 5, 6, plus, AND YES THIS IS REAL m.gira will record a simple, short, original song, acoustic guitar and voice, with customers’ name in the song, praising the customer, and send customer an mp3 of the song - $500
8. OPTION 3, AND 4, 5, 6, 7 and contribute an additional $100 or more over option 7, and receive undying gratitude, and a secret gift.

YOUR PURCHASE OF ANY OF THE ABOVE OPTIONS CONTRIBUTES DIRECTLY TOWARDS THE CONSIDERABLE (AND EVER EXPANDING) RECORDING COST OF THE NEW SWANS STUDIO ALBUM, THE SEER, IN PROGRESS)

wut?!

I'm happy to see Uncle Mike is no longer offering fingers as rewards.

I'm totally doing #3.

me too
if only the site was up :-/

Had to try for more than an hour, but I finally did it. Option 3 it is.

Would have loved to do option 3 but option 1 it is for me. And finally happily purchased too, that took...2 hours?

I remember when I first heard Children of God and I thought it was creepy and I guess 'over the top' but listening right now I only hear the beautiful.

I liked it at the time because I liked "goth" music....but it has mellowed with age.
I am quite enjoying Children of God / World of Skin right now!

I've only gotten into Filth/Cop/Young God but man, do they really put me in a bad place. I wish I could see my own face when I'm listening to them.

The early stuff sounds so tame by today's standards.

not sure what standards (bands?) you're referring to there, but whatever they might be, it's a dead cert they owe a debt to Swans.

I mean Slipknot are a million times louder and millions of kids listen to them.

yeah but Slipknot doesn't have Michael Gira so it doesn't really affect me like that

they strike me as a spectacularly obvious cabaret act these days what with gira's preacher costume / guilt shame redemption damnation schtick. sandra bernhard does flannery o'connor.
the records sound good but they feel insubstantial.
they're touring rock band on the circuit - you can pay to see them play a drinking hole near you.
admittedly, nobody does slave-ship johnny cash better, but some guys in a van playing singer songwriter songs or pretty much all music in general leaves me cold now.
consume it. enjoy it.

not sure abt that, early Swans were reputedly the loudest band ever. in a contest between early Swans and Slipknot to determine who was the most "tame", early Swans would lose.

xxp

I mean Slipknot are a million times louder and millions of kids listen to them.

this is the absurdest of all absurd comparisons in the history of time

I'm just asking why Slipknot aren't considered extreme. But you're right, I'm sorry about my lack of clarity.

it's like saying james brown sounds so tame compared to today's funkmasters like the red hot chili peppers

What I mean to say is, the proverbial mom of yesterday would say, "turn that extreme underground industrial music off". When a lot of it is rhythmic and less abrasive to my classically trained ears. Whereas the same type of mom twenty years on says, "oh look at my cute punk rock kid." Some of today's music is really loud, but sell a lot of product and it's okay.

I do think the Red Hot Chili Peppers are less tame in the presentation and in the actual texture in the music. It's not a qualitative comparison. I mean, my grandmother likes James Brown. She would find the Chili Peppers "too noisy".

if a kid was listening to a slipknot record a proverbial mom of today would say "turn down that emo mall metal, kid", if they were listening to public castration is a good idea she would say "please don't kill yourself, do I need to call someone"

also what do you have against moms moms can be cool too

I kinda see what you mean though. I know a bunch of people who are into bands like Slipknot or other metal and I've tried to turn them onto Swans. One of them really liked it - the rest without fail would say something like "this is really, really horrible"

yeah so they don't like it b/c it's too extreme, not b/c it's too tame

yeah let's compare

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fVE8kSM43I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSRjYYUE-_c

Of course not, this is art band, so it's probably not their thing.

Sorry to invoke so much attention. I'll leave the thread to wrongly enjoy something.

yeah but when you describe them as "industrial frowncore" their ears perk up

you don't have to leave, it's just there were a lot of bands who seemed weird and scary and oppressive back in the day, swans are one of the few whose recordings haven't aged a bit, that purity of vision still smashes all comers imo

Maybe they haven't aged because they weren't that "scary". Some people found angry hardcore "scary". Some people found Satan references in heavy metal "scary". So maybe not scary at all...just more thoughtful of how their work might sound in twenty years! Which is pretty listenable, actually.

yeeeah, i don't think early Swans "sounds so tame by today's standards" at all. it's still kind of the gold standard for heavy, punishing stuff imo.

yeah see that's not what I'm getting, why you find early Swans more listenable than Slipknot

Punishing? It's awesome!

The early stuff sounds so tame by today's standards.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:51 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, i don't get this at all. shit was horrible, near-unlistenable dirge groan back then and still is today. slipknot are a funtimes metal band.

sometimes I see ppl discover swans and they subsequently ask "what else is like this" and the answer is, nothing really. you can point to stuff like godflesh or neurosis, but those folks capture the music but not the magic, nobody took sour brutality to the same primal places. what swans did transcended the intellectual or theatrical pretenses bound up in a term like "art band", delivering instead something very direct, visceral, and punishing. which is why they did ultimately have an effect on the hardcore and metal scenes, but all those bands are easily recognizable as hardcore or metal bands, whereas swans invented a type of music that didn't exist before and hasn't since.

Saw them in 1985 supporting the Fall at Heaven. Possibly the most extreme gig I've ever seen. They deserve some respect for going that far.
I have heard few of their albums. Those that I have heard have been among the most negative, miserable, pointless pieces of music that I have ever encountered. No doubt Gira would in some way approve of this reaction. I couldn't care less. Dud.

― Dr. C, Saturday, March 17, 2001 1:00 AM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Funny I was at this gig in 1984 I think. Have it associated in my head with the Black Flag Marquee gig & the first Bad Seeds show at the Electric Ballroom.
It's always stuck in my mind. Gira pulling himself up and down with a noose hanging slightly in front of the stage. Not sure how many people actually stayed for the full set particularly as the bar was elsewhere from what I recall.

Loved their material pretty much ever since.

How's their live show nowadays? I am considering seeing them in Milwaukee but I'm not really sure what to expect or if it's even something I can enjoy. I feel like it's going to be the aural equivilent of banging my head against the wall but I kinda want to do it anyway.

you seemed to get on okay w/the internet equivalent of banging your head against a wall so

lol

current live show is amazing + transcendent, intense + pummeling, not nihilistic like the old days, more like the loudest tent revival meeting you ever saw.

my friend saw them in SF when they came through last year and he was on mushrooms and says that it was the most amazing, powerful experience he's ever had.

I saw them for the first time last night, p incredible. The first hour was the kind of brutal unrelenting assault I was expecting and great for it, but I suppose for the second hour my body gave up all resistance and I was 100% ~inside~ the sound, I felt like I could've gone on for hours more. My special blessings go to the maniacs not wearing earplugs (Gira included, I suppose his ears are like precisely but violently cut diamonds by now) and the shirtless guy next to me going crazy with his buddies.

(Mouth to Mouth was a really fun evening overall, if tough on the legs and back. Grouper and Xiu Xiu both beautiful and intense in their v different ways, Mercury Rev more enjoyable than I thought they'd be, if a bit corny and reliant on the same few tricks over and over. Didn't really get Ben Frost, sounded like little more than cheesy if massive EBM to me, but crowd reaction and twitter search suggest that I'm missing something there.)

yeah, i don't get this at all. shit was horrible, near-unlistenable dirge groan back then and still is today.

― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:08 AM (1 year ago)

been listening to we rose from Your bed with the sun in our head for a few days now, several hours a day. it's great. more groove-oriented than any swans i remember hearing before, immersive where i've previously found them repellent. after 20-some years trying, the door.

try this next

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cNnebTY_VE

lol, i've still got public castration is a good idea on vinyl from way back when. should dig it out.

their finest hour imo tho you may want to ease yrself into the bathtub w/ filth first

holy money and children of god burned up in a fire years back. wasn't a fan, but enjoyed thinking about how much someone would pay me for them (song ideas for michael). now i wish i still had them around for actual listening to. are swans on spotify? wow, yeah, a bunch of stuff, anyway. surprises me somehow. gira doesn't seem to have much patience for freeloaders.

wow, that no wave swans debut is kind of great. speaking of groove n all. never heard it before.

one of my favorite things they did. lotta playback value since you won't feel like killing yrself after listening. unfortunately the original mixdown masters were lost and the subsequent 1990 remaster was terrible.

as a general statement their 80s stuff is best heard on vinyl, and the CD remasters pale in comparison, but that 1st EP is unlistenable on CD.

ed what about the 1990 vinyl reissue? still from the same botched masters?

what's vinyl

filth was reissued on CD and vinyl in '90, the CD had the labor EP tacked onto the end. afaik there was no vinyl reissue of the EP by itself?

the '90 vinyl reissue of filth is not that great compared to the 80s pressings, it has the same master as the CD.

GETTING TAKEN TO THE BASEMENT GETTING FUCKED TO EASE SOME TENSION

didn't know bob pezzola also played with these guys round the same time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B7_MeYhnWU

ok according to discogs there *was* a '90 vinyl reish of the labor EP on young god. I never heard it but considering the '90 young god reish of filth on vinyl had a less than optimal mix/master, I assume the EP is the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oeZmWUl8dM lol

what's vinyl

― markers, Thursday, August 1, 2013 4:39 PM (Yesterday)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjf2qEFjgOQxiP9RRncu3hgQTJ0B_jhGF4Kq4T_RA9B0R0YQ8PXg

poor markers

ok according to discogs there *was* a '90 vinyl reish of the labor EP on young god. I never heard it but considering the '90 young god reish of filth on vinyl had a less than optimal mix/master, I assume the EP is the same.

― this gtr climbed mt. washington (Edward III), Friday, 2 August 2013 03:52

Yeah this is what I was referring to, I trust yr judgment if u have heard the Filth reish.

i used to have the Speak EP reissue on vinyl.. and it sounded ok to me at the time... but that EP has a much more brittle, tinny sound that the first LP - which sounds like it was recorded in a swamp..

now i wish i never sold it, and the Circus Mort 12" I had as well :-(

I interviewed Michael Gira a couple of days ago ahead of Swans' Irish shows next week.

with those shows in mind, how loud are Swans live circa 2013?

They get loud - last time I saw 'em was 2010 or 2011, and I was glad for earplugs.

Good interview!

Saw them within a month of seeing MBV earlier this year, and the two were comparably loud, but Swans were more physical. If that makes sense.

Definitely glad of earplugs at both.

Man this looks like it could be interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl-gLgjV4SI&feature=youtu.be

So uh what's the deal with ANOTHER 2CD set? What does Michael Gira have against editing?

hey, no complaints here!

Swans songs-albs have been long for....fifteen years or more now? Gira has never made any secret of his love for Floydian jams like 'Set the Controls..', and 'new' Swans have been working towards that for a while.

But as sleeve sez, bring it on.

i still can't get over thor's stupid bossy "how to live" listicle
it's making swans difficult for me to like! how do i get over this?

Where is this list?

http://monofonuspress.com/how-to-live-like-a-king-for-very-little-by-thor-harris

mostly pretty sensible tbh. I'm gonna assume the jerkier bits were contributed by she who shall not be named.

And why the fuck should we not all be excited by another two hours of fucking SWANS? bring it.

i should just try to forget about it
it's not his recommendations themselves that bother me, but the writing of the list in the first place
just gonna try to unsee it

haha I thought you were talking about the "how to survive on tour" list, hadn't seen that one

I dont know why the list bothers you that much, I thought it was pretty good.

Had no idea Palmer knew any Swans people.

Other than speeding tickets and cirrhosis this seems... suspect:

16. PREVENTABLE EXPENSES - STD’S, ABORTIONS, DWI’S, LUNG CANCER, HEAD INJURIES, SPEEDING TICKETS, CIRRHOSIS OF THE LIVER.

Drummer named Thor has no sympathy for those who are not masters of their domain, film at eleven

Yeah, some of rule 16 was a bit odd. I think most people try to avoid head injury.

Is cirrhosis easy for everyone to avoid?

WRITE IN ALL CAPS, LIKE A BOSS

NEws of St Vincent and Swans teaming up - *falls down dead, goes to heaven*

the list is smug, misanthropic, quite up itself in a teenage-y way unbecoming a guy of his age tbh

Contributions from Amanda Palmer. God she gets everywhere doesn't she?

9. If you like booze, drink at home with your neighbors.

10. Do people favors. It’s called Cooperation. It’s how the world worked before money.

^ so misanthropic

So the recording of the new album was fan funded but it's being released by Mute? I'm all for Gira taking control of his career etc, but it seems like funding a Swans album would be pocket change for Mute, no?

xp

i'm not gonna get into "don't have kids" on here

good point

xp

I think most of it was advice in an exaggerrated manner, I'm sure plenty of his friends and associates break plenty of these rules (especially about having kids. I doubt he sneers at Gira for having children).

I don't want to overexplain this, but it's the simple fact that he wrote a presumptive aggrieved-sounding list of unsolicited advice -- it's that impulse that repulses me, not the content. Although that's pretty bad in some places too. Anyway, I am trying to say who cares and move on.

it's like the hardman version of "dance like no one's watching"

^^

gonna go with "unbecoming for a man his age" here

another addition could be "work for yourself, don't be anybody's fucking paid employee"... oh wait

guys, it's nothing to get offended at. it's jokey in tone

I found it obnoxious too but it doesn't effect my enjoyment of the band at all, come on LL. I dont think I'd want to meet any of these guys in person anyway!

Yeah, this is Swans.

Ok ok, I'm over it!

Seem like nice people to me, but maybe a bit grumpy.
When I saw the Swans a couple of years ago I saw Thor meeting someone who must have been an old friend or something, it was really sweet how excited he looked at meeting the person. For some reason this sticks in my mind.

I still think there is good stuff on that list (surely overpopulation is something that doesnt get talked about enough; science fiction authors were scared of it in the 60s-70s, so why arent there loads of movies about it now?); there is some advice about self-sufficiency that I should probably take but I'm too scared of hurting my hands doing diy stuff.
For every time I roll my eyes at some obvious overfamiliar piece of wisdom, I think that there is always going to be some people who have never thought about it.
I remember a girl on Devianart who was asking for help because her boyfriend beat her up and she blamed herself for it. The idea that she was being wrongfully abused seemed like a total revelation to her.

ha, i enjoyed that list, thor seems cool. my brother hung out with all the swans on a recent tour, had dinner and breakfast with them through a mutual friend. said thor was super nice. gira was kind of a dick but that's no surprise.

Thor is one of the sweetest people I've ever known. I dislike lists of what people should or shouldn't do though his how to be in a band one was funny because if you spend a lot of your life in a tour van a lot of it resonated. the strength of that piece was that it spoke from an experience many share but that's unusual for many. I don't think it's presumptuous for a guy who's been in a bunch of bands & is well liked by almost everybody he's worked with to write a "how to be in a band" list, but I think it's presumptuous for pretty much anybody to write a "here's how to live your life list" well there we have it I've shared my opinion about Thor's list have a nice day everybody

i'm glad to know we share the same opinion about thor and his list! he seems like a decent person, it's just the "how to live" list-making itself that i dislike but I'd feel the same way if my beloved or bff made a similar list. just kinda disappointed.

CARRY ON with the music-making, Swans

listening to Filth first time ever, and yeah these guys have pretty much always been good. Yet another addition to the "I can't believe this happened in 1983" canon, and in a weird way, can see how this would have influenced extreme metal bands. Not in the speed department, but in the generally inhuman, grinding beats and guitars.

oh dear lord Public Castration Is A Good Thing

yes, that one

"oxygen" is killer

you guys

https://youtu.be/AKb88rSal6M

http://youtu.be/AKb88rSal6M

nnng. one day i'll do this correctly.

put an "s" after the http

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKb88rSal6M

thought i had it that time. why am i still here.

I think you actually need to remove the s after http.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKb88rSal6M

:)

is there another thread to talk about the new album?

i picked it up at their show in DC the other day. it was the second time i've seen them, and it was predictably great, albeit slightly less ferocious than the last time around (the seer tour).

yes, please join us here:

SWANS - To Be Kind 2CD (May 13, 2014) ft. St. Vincent, Cold Specks, Little Annie, Bill Rieflin and others

Meantime I looked back thirty years...

http://thequietus.com/articles/15465-swans-cop-anniversary-review

Ned I hate to tell you this but "Half Life" is the opener, not "Why Hide" ;)

it sounds like you are describing the right track fwiw

SWANS QUESTION

i just saw them a couple days ago and the last song they played had a penultimate part that sounded almost exactly like "Mother Sky" only without the lead guitar or fancy drum overdubs -- just the condensed essence (the doot doot dootdootdoot part was prominent)

they played a couple of faster songs this set and i really liked it -- the trombone one and the mother skyish song in particular
i overheard thor tell someone that they were playing all new stuff so i was just wondering if anyone else had heard the same thing?

update: I have discovered that the song is called Black Hole Man

mother of the world or piece of the sky?

no
i know both of those songs and it was neither of those

i know mother of the world backwards and forwards! it was on my workout mix for a year.

oh... the Can song. duh...

Mother Sky is also on my workout mix, that's why I'm so sensitive to hearing parts of it, hence the above question.

checking out a massive live tape from last week -- kicking myself for not going to see them the last time they were here.

That's how I felt about missing the Chicago show! I'm convinced that Chris Pravdica is their secret weapon.

Update: I conferred with someone who saw the Chicago show about the Mother Sky sounding song (he is someone who would know what I was talking about too, and wouldn't hesitate to tell me if i were mistaken) and he agreed, and added that he heard it in the bassline. So Swans enthusiasts can look forward to hearing more of that. I know I am at least.

"Black Hole Man" was the encore at the recent SF show I went to. It was amazing.

won't you come and wash away the rain

here's a recording of the whole set apparently? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNIIw455Wgw&spfreload=10

wow thanks

The 3CD deluxe reissue of Filth, which also includes the debut 12" EP, Body to Body, Job to Job and a bunch of bonus live tracks, all newly remastered, is available for preorder now (street date is 5/26).

oh wow! never thought that would happen, tbh

Thanks! Don't they send out mails about this kind of thing anymore?

THis new set comes with the audio for the London debut which was when i first saw them. Might just get another copy of this since it also has the first e.p. which I was just thinking I'd never heard last night. Have heard the soundbites up at the suite now.
I think the stripey back cover of the 3cd set is the front cover of that e.p. isn't it?

yes

Apparently (and I ordered before I knew this) if you pre-order it from the YG site, Gira signs it.

He seems to do that with most of the stuff you get from the YG site doesn't he? I've certainly had a number of things bought from there come with his autograph.
Could just be recent releases but certainly seems to be something he does regularly

a la his mate jim foetus, a similar online groove.

(have heard that jim does the whole foetus online thing himself these days, and it would not surprise me if michael followed the same path)

Just got it today - I can't say I hear a whole lot of difference between this version of Filth/Body To Body and the ones that were released on YG in 2000, which sounded more than adequate already. The Swans EP sounds way better than any version I'd heard before + the CBGB's and London recordings sound rather mediocre to say the least :-/

https://www.facebook.com/SwansOfficial/photos/a.487755361977.266239.13879391977/10153948860591978/?type=1 : remaster/reissue of White Light From The Mouth Of Infinity in the works
+
https://www.facebook.com/SwansOfficial/photos/a.487755361977.266239.13879391977/10153779357881978/?type=1 : new album to be recorded starting in September

Now that I'm mentioning WLFTMOI: check out the longer version of Why Are We Alive on Various Failures, it's way better than the original

... even though the first 3'50" are identical :-)

great news, love that album

https://www.facebook.com/SwansOfficial/photos/a.487755361977.266239.13879391977/10154034056451978/

Imminent end of Swans again.

I spoke to Norman about a year ago and I strongly inferred he felt like he was getting too old to still be doing it. You then get to the "is it the Swans with just Gira" argument I guess.

good decision, not Swans w/o Westberg imo

Gira said in a 2011 interview that "[Swans] is what I’m going to be doing for the next five years", so I think he's had this thing mapped out for a good long while.

haha, love the description of the next studio album as an "insatiable beast". can't wait!

ha i wasn't aware there was a swans facebook page does anyone else find it really super weird and incongruous to see michael gira posting something on facebook?

not trying to be contrary, but don't think it's weird at all that gira is on facebook - he's always gone in for fan communication, using all available channels to reach out/promote - never really saw him as a luddite/crank hiding in his cave

^^^ people assume he's distant because his art is aggro but he wrote all the one-sheets for every act on Young God Records and championed the albums ceaselessly

he's not mr. warmth but he's not Artist Removed From the Process either

oh yea it's not the fan communication that struck me, my main impression tbh from the young god website was "wow gira is super chatty"

more just that it was facebook

Yeah, disagree that Gira is not Mr Warmth, he's bizarrely close to fans.

I remember at SSonic people being freaked out by him leaving out a handwritten note that said "I'll be around to sign stuff later, or just to hang out so please don't leave and stay back to say Hi".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjMGZEq41-g&feature=youtu.be&t=3m48s

this interview is funny

i ordered some stuff from young god in like 07 or so and gira wrote me an email expressing his hope that all was well in new orleans. so he's a cool dude in my book.

When I saw them a couple of yrs ago I went with a friend who is a super fan and waited around afterward so she could take her picture with Gira and he was very pleasant and friendly.

Though I did mention if she had really wanted her picture taken with a dude in a big hat & smoking a cigar I could arranged that pretty easy and we wouldn't have to wait.

New handmade live CD now available to order:

http://younggodrecords.com/products/the-gate

I was just posting that, but waiting till my payment cleared before hitting submit.

that link is blocked here - is it one particular gig, or drawn from different shows (would love a good copy of their Roundhouse concert)

As to The Gate itself, it was recorded in Berlin at Berghain, night 2, for the most part, in 2014

really wish Gira could do the whole "buy the live CD of the gig, right after the gig" thing, seems perfect for them but it probably a big logistics nightmare

Berghain chosen for a specific reason:

this was the very night that our rendition of the song The Apostate morphed through improvisation into what has since become, through the usual trials, The Cloud of Unknowing

I'm not a big fan of that. Sometimes you miss the encores b/c they stop recording to start making the CDs (or USB sticks, which Neubauten use). Also, the recordings are obviously unmixed and unpackaged, and can sound pretty ropey. I prefer the way Dead Can Dance did it a few years ago, you bought a voucher at the gig and they sent you the properly mixed CD a few weeks later.

Would def be interested in a Mick's Picks live series

xp yeah you're probably right there, just daydreaming

also, LOL at "Mick's Picks"

From further down that page -

"... Though there’s still much to be said and new landscapes to explore on the new album and final (but yes, anticipated to be endless) tour, it’s time that we… what’s the word here… dissolve. By this I mean that each of us will continue on our own glorious diamond-strewn path - well, my 5 friends will, anyway – and I intend to keep the name and ongoing project of Swans active in a different form, drawing sporadically on the myriad list of musical cohorts I’m met along the way over the last 30 plus years (including I hope, at times, if they’ll consent, my 5 friends mentioned above) , but the creature, the beast, the monster, the liberating vortex of light and sound that is the 6 of us working in close quarters together over extended periods of time, will cease to exist. Most likely, Swans albums will not appear so fast and furious..."

wow, they sold out already

White Light From The Mouth Of Infinity and Love Of Life being reissued as a vinyl box (including a CD of rarities & outtakes) and a 3CD set. I've never heard either of these albums, and $23 for the 3CD version is very reasonable.

yesss, finally. White Light is particularly great, although a lot of folks may know most of these tracks from the Various Failures 2CD comp

also relevant:

The individual vinyl versions of these albums will also be available after the box set has sold out.

Yeah these are both great, although White Light is by some way superior. I think the songs for both were recorded at the same time and the best stuff got frontloaded on the earlier release. Not sure I would agree with the statement that White Light "is considered the starting point for the second section of Swans’ inimitable history", The Burning World seems to fit that particular bill more closely, although I guess Gira is still not keen on it.

Anyway, I won't be shelling out for this as I still have my copy of the original box :-)

those albums were recorded separately.

well WL is still better

agreed.

According to Allmusic’s Ned Ragget, “Love of Life continues the astounding creative

Who is this one-T impostor?

http://younggodrecords.com/collections/frontpage/products/white-light-from-the-mouth-of-infinity-love-of-life-ltd-ed-vinyl-box-set-3cd-release

THe White Rabbit years reissued

Which Iguess you already nknew, I thought i was reviving a dead thread.
Do wish they'd redo Anonymous Bodies in An Empty Room since i think I prefer that last days of the Children of God band gone folk rock sound.
& Omniscience is interesting too. I heard that GIra meticulously pieced that together from edits of live tracks piece by piece jigsaw like instead of it being an audio verité set like some earlier things might have been. But I think it came across pretty powerfully though I haven't listened to it for ages. Not sure if I still have it or at least a working copy, think mine came from the Dublin Tower water damaged sale so may have been prey to that.

despite loving C.O.G and seeing that tour (oooh my ears !), this is the reissue i have been waiting years for.

Westberg left between Burning World and Whiter Light though he's on live materail from '88 and '89. I think he went off and became a heroin Sheik.
Maybe it's taht that defines the difference between stages.
Could also be that Gira disowned Burning World for years, though he did put out Forever Burned some years ago based on it.

wasn't it cos of the laswell production that gira hates the burning world album ?

Well, my pre-order's in.

I got White Light after Various Failures, paid an absurd amount for it but it seemed worth it at the time, not because of the tracks that weren't on Various Failures but because the track sequence brought new life to the songs.
Never bothered to get Love Of Life or anything else from the period, just hoping that Various Failures really was all the really good stuff.

ordered this alongside the new dave gahan/soulsavers release (in order to qualify for the free delivery from amazon of course).

i feel very happy with my selection of dark and miserable grooves.

£13 for the swans 3cd set : cannot complain re that at all.

even if the extras are crap i would have paid a lot more for the main album a few years ago on cd ..

I can assure you that some of those extras are definitely not crap ("Dream Dream" is one of my favorites from this period)

I wish they'd just reissue "Ten Songs From Another World" exactly as it was. Sequencing is really great on that, especially the beginning.

agreed! other than a vinyl version of "Great Annihilator" and a reissue of Omniscience, I think that's the only other loose end

And The Burning World, no?

reissued on vinyl recently, dunno abt CD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_Burned 2003 OOP

Has anybody found out if Omniscience is duplicated in tracks on the bonus disc here? Or if the versions are different? Seem to be some of the same titles at least.

Some, but far from all.

I had forgotten that The Burning World was reissued by Water in 2012 and remains in print.

Weird question that I never thought of before, but is Jarboe's age per Wikipedia accurate (January 30, 1970)? I never thought of her as particularly young looking, but that would make her like 14 or 15 when she gets involved with Swans. Wondering if that's possible. Gira born in 1954. Kind of hoping that Wiki has her birthdate wrong.

Still waiting for my copy of the White Light/Love set to arrive, but I also just ordered the reissue of The Burning World from Amazon.

No way is that date of birth accurate.

I'd say it would be about 10 years out. Might be 1960. She was certainly older than me in the mid 80s when i met the band a few times.
Probably still is in fact.

http://www.swans.pair.com/PRESS/int_com.html :

Oh, thats not samples, thats tapes which Jarboe recorded as a little girl, about 12 years old.

The "Her" tape mentions the Grateful Dead playing Piedmont Park "this afternoon" = July 7, 1969.

so... she's from 1957.

/investigative journalism

but she has chosen not to reveal that officially so um, if you get a cease & desist, it wasn't me :-)

ok, it's slightly weird not to have the tracklist anywhere in the 3CD box/packaging & to have to go look it up online but anyway (the booklet only contains the lyrics and "#5, #9, #13 etc originally appeared on World of Skin" etc, not what those tracks might be)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Light_from_the_Mouth_of_Infinity -> "2015 remaster version" for the differences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_of_Life_%28album%29 -> "background" and "2015 bonus tracks" for CD 2 & 3 details

my head hurts now

can someone tell me the current status of swans song "black hole man"? i have a live recording that's like 19 min long and i was wondering if there was a not-live version of it.

No, the only officially released version at the moment is on The Gate, live, as the second part of "Bring The Sun" (28:16).
(Maybe they'll record a studio version for the 2016 album, I don't know)

hope so!

Larkin Grimm has accused Gira of rape.

https://t.co/iO2IF5x1ZX

Dud

ugh

Don't know if legit:

http://i65.tinypic.com/2jcvbo.png

(Me = not me, obv, just found this being linked to somewhere else)

Larkin has commented further to Pitchfork:

http://pitchfork.com/news/63780-swans-michael-gira-accused-of-rape-by-former-collaborator-larkin-grimm/

I am not in this for vengeance. I am not angry. I do not want Michael Gira to have his life destroyed. If one in four or five women has been raped, we have to acknowledge the possibility that one in five men might be rapists. What are we going to do with them all? Send them to jail for 10 years and cut off their dicks? NO. It is the whole culture that has to change. We have created this epidemic of harassment and disrespect and violence together. We have to end it together.

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

Gira has responded.

https://www.facebook.com/mgira/posts/10201368018239159

well that got ugly fast

Made mistake of reading comments to his post.

And for fucks sake, has anyone listened to his songs speaking out against rape??!??
Like · 4 · 13 mins
Dennis Mandarin
Dennis Mandarin EXAAAACTLY
Like · 1 · 13 mins
Dennis Mandarin
Dennis Mandarin Anyone who believes this probably doesn't listen to swans.

^^^^ "but his best friend is black!"

yeah that one stood out

fuck what a depressing story

Gira's wife reacts as well

https://www.facebook.com/coveredwithstars/posts/10206691239732330

god what a mess

Damn :-(

kinda wondering what the hell this "proof" is gonna be

They're claiming it's emails the woman sent to him through the years that show a pattern of vindictiveness and erratic behavior.

Obv that's not "proof" of anything. This is going to be a long, ugly debacle.

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

This was the second instance of exactly this kind of announcement on FB I saw this week (curiously enough both involving NY musicians), and would be very surprised if it was the last. And yeah, keep away from the comments if you don't want to get angry.

xpost

Yeah, reading Jennifer Gira's post I was thinking that even if that pattern of behavior is true, it wouldn't exactly be inconsistent with what Grimm is saying. "Traumatized victim behaves erratically, threatens revenge" is not an unlikely scenario.

"actual rapist accuses victim of being mentally unstable & bent on revenge as soon as the truth comes out" is not an unlikely scenario either

otm

yup

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

Oh I don't know about that the actual allegations are pretty gross (esp. the pattern of harassment).

xp ... not that I'm tryna write a thinkpiece about it or anything, but it feels like there's this weird double-bind characterizing our particular cultural moment: people assume that the "rape allegation as character assassination" narrative still makes sense, even as we try to move towards a culture in which the stigma of "being a rapist" is, if not lessened, then certainly different*... in which case, the real crime** is being tethered to an outdated mentality which demands smearing the accuser to protect one's good name

*: because keeping that stigma intact allows us to think of rape as a rare occurrence, perpetrated by insane people
**: "the real crime" = in the eyes of the gossipy internet-driven public sphere that passes character judgments -- obviously from the standpoint of the legal system, the real crime is still rape

anyway, that's the last I'll say on this subject. I'm on the verge of tears listening to The Seer right now. it's been a tough week.

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

― Posts found in a bottle by (bernard snowy)

this was my reaction as well, the stark contrast between Grimm's clear-eyed, very compassionate take on things and Gira's ugly defensive hatefulness is so jarring.

P4K headline on this comes down heavily on Gira's side of things. "Swans' Michael Gira Calls Rape Accusations by Former Collaborator Larkin Grimm a "Slanderous Lie".

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

And I'm guessing often based on sex. My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

kinda wondering what the hell this "proof" is gonna be

― frogbs, Friday, February 26, 2016 8:40 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's not proof she have, it's PROOF

But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

It seems insane for someone to do that, but it is not unprecedented.

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

I am not expressing any endorsement of Gira's or Grimm's "side" of this story in what I'm about to say. False accusations of rape when the two people are on a more or less socially equal level are extremely rare. However, there is a subset of accusations leveled at famous men by non-famous women. David Bowie was accused of rape in 1987; the charges were rejected by a grand jury. Conor Oberst was falsely accused, as the link above reveals. I'm sure there are other examples but I'm not about to go looking for them.

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?"

In this case, I'll give it a shot, if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment (because I have no more idea who is telling the truth than you do): a person desperate to be famous at any cost accuses a public figure of the most despicable, inexcusable, heinous crime there is. Hours later, said public figure has been tried and convicted by the internet, while Pitchfork, Spin, Stereogum, etc all lead with headlines bearing the previously-forgotten-by-almost-everyone name "Larkin Grimm."

I realize that probably reads like some of the disgusting comments section talk you refer to, and while I am loath to even advance such a theory, I mention it because I also don't feel comfortable with the idea that someone can be transformed into a pariah based on a Facebook post. I also wouldn't have felt comfortable commenting on this if Jennifer Gira hadn't spoken out first. I would sooner stay out of it entirely than align myself with an idiotic lynch mob of starstruck dudes blaming the victim. If it happened, it's fucked up and MG should suffer the consequences. But what if it didn't?

I guess I put that scenario in the "sociopathic or too narcissistic to think clearly" file, which other than revenge for something that nobody has yet made public, is the only scenario I see (other than believing the accuser) that explains it. I mean, I HOPE it's not true, for the each of their sakes, but my gut feeling is that there are a lot more people who never report things that really did happen than there are false accusers.

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape. It might be the case that famous people are more frequently falsely accused, but they are also more likely to have entitlement and power issues that make them think they're allowed to do anything they want.

Both of these posts sadly accurate:

reading Jennifer Gira's post I was thinking that even if that pattern of behavior is true, it wouldn't exactly be inconsistent with what Grimm is saying. "Traumatized victim behaves erratically, threatens revenge" is not an unlikely scenario.

― A nationally known air show announcer/personality (tipsy mothra), Friday, February 26, 2016 2:00 PM (1 hour ago)

"actual rapist accuses victim of being mentally unstable & bent on revenge as soon as the truth comes out" is not an unlikely scenario either

― crüt, Friday, February 26, 2016 2:01 PM (1 hour ago)

The thing that stuck out most from Jennifer Gira's response was that she seemed to be implying that she had been *really* raped, because it was by a stranger. Am I reading that wrong? Because you're wayyyyy more likely to be raped by someone you know.

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape. It might be the case that famous people are more frequently falsely accused, but they are also more likely to have entitlement and power issues that make them think they're allowed to do anything they want.

Both these statements are true. And with that, I withdraw, as I have absolutely no firsthand knowledge of this situation.

xp Absolutely. But a false accusation does more harm than good for people who have legitimately been victimized and only encourages unthinking people to continue to place the burden of proof on the victim while all the while looking for holes in her story, citing precedent (as top man did above)

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

Actually, scratch my last paragraph. While I stand by the "you're more likely to be raped by someone you know" element, the last thing I want to do is end up scrutinising another woman's trauma.

more likely than not, coming out as a rape victim, you are going to be a victim of character assassination and other forms of intense bullying. it's not that you have to be a sociopathic or nihilsit to lie about these things, it's that you have to be completely unaware of how the process of coming out will be painful. part of how rape culture works is that there is basically zero benefit to post things like Larkin Grimm posted.

None of us here know the truth though so it seems wrong to comment or take a side until much more is known. Its horrible and I hope the truth comes out - whatever that may be.

That should not be read as taking any particular side. It also means avoid comments on the story reported elsewhere.

Glad to see the this thread turning respectful to victims.

Just wanted to chime in that very few rape accusations are false. And that no career has every been helped by falsely accusing someone of rape.

The two examples of musicians being falsely accused up thread (if indeed the accusations were false) weren't accused by aspiring musicians, and in no way did the accusers benefit from it. Pretending that only the accused gets tried and convicted by the Internet is disingenuous and harmful.

There's no more need on the Internet for people to play devil's advocate against rape victims ever again, I'm sure of that.

I linked this elsewhere but this new article is deeply, highly relevant right this second.

http://www.bkmag.com/2016/02/26/aftermath-and-recovery-heathcliff-berru-speaks-and-reporting-on-sexual-assault-in-the-music-industry/

The problem is, partly because the law is shit at dealing with this, partly because usually both sides stick to their stories completely, it is highly unlikely that any *objective truth* will ever be known. Even if someone gets jailed for it, their supporters will still keep on with the idea that it was consensual or not "real rape". Or, more commonly, the man doesn't get jailed because of lack of evidence, but lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It is entirely up to the individual what they do with the information laid out for them. I still rate Repulsion as one of the greatest films ever made. I still listen to [insert a musician I love who has done a terrible thing here, I actually can't think of one but there are bound to be many]. It is easier when someone is in the past, much easier when they are dead, to elide over their faults. It is incredibly hard when they are still active.

Personally my response is to believe everyone who comes out with a story like this, but look at what can be done to remedy the fact that it is so widespread rather than concentrate on the individual perpetrator. The problem with this is that it is both easy and just to punish a perpetrator, and it is hard to the point of impossible to know what to do about society.

Pretending that only the accused gets tried and convicted by the Internet is disingenuous and harmful.

There's no more need on the Internet for people to play devil's advocate against rape victims ever again, I'm sure of that.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 4:59 PM (11 minutes ago)

OTM OTM OTM

dud

xp But doesn't that way of thinking create a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario? That's a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. I do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.

we're not throwing michael gira in jail

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

xp But doesn't that way of thinking create a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario? That's a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. I do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.

― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:29 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

well it's pretty clear that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't work for something like 98% of rape cases, when it's so painfully clear that the system has failed it's really NAGL to suggest it as a reasonable option here.

great posts emil.y.

xp

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

walking away from thread for a while before I get really mad

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

Yes, of course I'd believe you, but that analogy doesn't work here. If instead of "someone stole my car" you told me "(specific person x) just stole my car!," I'd probably have to ask a few follow up questions before rounding up a posse.

Even, "someone stole my car" is subject to question. Sorry, but people lie about all sorts of things, all the time. That applies to everyone in this story. The idea that we can somehow guess who's lying and who's telling the truth is insane. Unless you have proof, you don't know. I hate speculative conversations like this.

If someone said that their car was stolen, I'd have no opinion at all until I looked into the details.

I have no idea what happened. Probably nobody else does, other than the parties involved. Threads like this are like wondering about trees falling in the forest.

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

― emil.y, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:39 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is amazing.

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

― StanM, Friday, February 26, 2016 10:22 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nah fuck that. the only "side" that matters is the truth. it's fascinating!

As far as people believing crime victims all the time, I'd suggest looking into allegations of abuse by prisoners. People don't believe victims of crime all the time at all. That is simply wrong.

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, February 26, 2016 12:48 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that article that Ned posted upthread is in fact really good.

While Potiker was surprised and hopeful about the way this story unfolded, with other women backing each other up, she cautions that coming forward publicly won’t be helpful for all women.

“We do have to remember that some of these survivors were pretty high profile, so this isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution,” she said. “‘Random girl with no Internet following accuses music publicist of sexual misconduct’ isn’t a great headline. For women who don’t have a big social media following and support system, a tweet about abuse might do more harm than good. Social media can be a platform where we reach a lot of people, and make sure our stories are made public on our own terms and in our own words, but the major thing to remember is that coming forward isn’t an option for every woman. We have to make sure not to make share your stories the rallying cry. We cannot imply that women who don’t feel comfortable sharing their stories should feel guilty for not doing so.”

One of the most common responses survivors of sexual assault face when they come forward is the question of why they don’t report the incident to the police. In some cases, reporting the assault can be just as traumatic as the initial experience.

“It’s very individual, when you report to the police, what kind of response you will get,” Chaiet said. Good training for police is critical,” Chaiet said. “People of all backgrounds have shared with me that the reporting of the crime was an awful process. They are challenged, judged, disbelieved, and even turned away from making a report. So it’s always the victim’s choice what to do.”

Even if survivors do choose to go to the police, the legal system itself rarely convicts those accused of rape or sexual assault. RAINN reports that only 3% of rapists ever see a conviction, and the victims who accuse their abusers often suffer even more after the legal system fails them.

also I have never heard Swans.

it's fascinating!

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau)

Hey. Don't.

In response to a few different points being brought up:

People tend to be more skeptical of victims when they are marginilzed groups of people, like women (and like the abused prisoners you mentioned, dlp9001).

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

well I think dlp is right there, there's a difference between saying "I was victimized" and "person X did this to me". if someone says "I was raped 10 years ago" I don't think people are going to run to discredit them, but once you bring in the name of someone who is famous and sort of irrationally loved by thousands of people, that's when the mental gymnastics start coming out.

interested in hearing more about the Thomas Sayers Ellis incident. I'm usually pretty plugged into literary circles but that incident seems to ahve been eclipsed by the Gira allegation. So what happened between Ellis and his girlfriend in front of all these people? And what did he say about Grimm onstage that was so humiliating? Any reports?

Food for thought:

http://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/

enough with the fucking open letters already

You know who you are. You are that white guy in an Ethnic Studies class who’s exploring the idea that poor people might have babies to stay on welfare.

i am? news to me.

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all and I'm actually pretty relieved that this thread has remained as civil as it has. I'm eager to hear people's opinions about this (beyond Gira / Grimm) because I think these discussions are important.

Anyway, Travisssss, your analogy also falls flat. When a band gets their gear stolen, their gear is gone. Short of an brilliant, elaborate scheme in which they get trusted friends to temporarily "hide" all the guitars and amps and keyboards and laptops that were ostensibly stolen, the fact is: band had gear, band no longer has gear. You don't see how this situation is different?

from the article, i thought it was worth posting here

http://d1o2xrel38nv1n.cloudfront.net/files/2014/05/2014-04-10-pltm196-1.jpg

Wow, that's pretty presumptuous. On several counts.

All I'm advocating is letting things play out and examining facts before passing the sort of judgment that could potentially destroy someone's life. I don't think that's a very outrageous position to take.

most rape accusations are truthful
a few are lies
Michael Gira is probably a rapist.
But we can't know for sure.
Lock thread.

^

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

^

thank god y'all are here to defend poor michael gira

Nobody is doing that here xp

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Yeah

I expect Michael Gira, like Conor Oberst, will sue. So:

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Wait you found it moving?

Horrible story. Hopefully the truth comes out one day. Even though I'm sure 99% of the time, the person accused of rape actually performed the crime, sometimes they're not. Cases like the Brian Banks one come to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)

"sometimes"

emil.y, crut, sleeve massively OTM. the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

Travissss too, great posts.

the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 6:50 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so much for the thread remaining civil

it stopped being civil when you started "playing" devil's advocate

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all

maybe english isn't your first language, but he was talking about "victims of sexual abuse" in general, not the specific victim of this case.

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

"I believe the woman" is really a pretty safe/reasonable starting position, Gira's heightened, panicky response compared to the very measured, considered statements of hers that I've read didn't do anything to challenge my baseline assumption (much as I would love to not tarnish my warm feelings towards Swans)

"I have no idea what happened," is probably an even safer and more reasonable starting position. "Nothing good is going to come from this thread henceforth," is another one.

I don't really get the "measured tone v. panicked tone, AWFULLY suspicious" thing.

yes, I think that the allegation is more likely to be true than not, but idg why a 'heightened, panicky response' further convinces Simon H that Gira is guilty - it's not like you'd expect someone being falsely accused of rape to be relaxed about the situation, even if the accusation was made in a 'measured, considered' way, surely

I admit it might be partially because it realllly reminds me of the tone taken by Jian Ghomeshi in his initial FB statement - going straight to apparent victim-blaming/shaming pretty much immediately

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Let's just say for a second -- yes, I know, it's a HILARIOUS thought -- that he's innocent. In that purely hypothetical instance, wouldn't you think it he'd be entitled to legal action?

Wait you found it moving?

Moving as in evoking strong feelings, moron.

Come on, none of us have a clue what happened. And since it's unlikely that there would be criminal proceedings against Michael Gira - given the length of time which has passed since the alleged event took place, not to mention the apparent lack of external witnesses present in Larkin Grimm's account - it comes down to only a few real possibilities.

1) We never know the truth for certain.

2) The "proof" Jennifer Gira mentions is credible enough to dispel the validity of Larkin Grimm's claims against Michael Gira.

3) That Michael Gira makes some sort of formal statement acknowledging Grimm's claims.

4) Enough alleged victims with credible stories come out against Michael Gira, à la Bill Cosby, to give substance to Grimm's claims.

5) Grimm admits she made the whole thing up.

Beyond wishing for justice for whoever is the damaged party, what more can you say?

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 7:34 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When was I doing this, exactly?

we're constantly bathed in seconhand narrative. i tend to be suspicious of the vast majority of it. applies in situations like this to both accusations of crime and protestations of innocence.

is michael gira guilty of rape? hell if i know. it's clearly none of my damn business.

As somebody who has spent money on Mr. Gira's recordings, it is quite literally my business.

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

I've been down this whole road before in activist communities, and I've made the mistake of splitting hairs and being all "BUT WHAT IF..." before. If it's bullshit, it will become obvious in time. For now, just believe the women. And guess what, you can believe a woman's account without demonizing the man.

gonna walk away again here.

^^^^^^

Well, guess what everyone!

http://pitchfork.com/news/63799-swans-michael-gira-issues-statement-on-larkin-grimm-rape-accusations/

Eight years ago, while I was still married to my first wife, Larkin Grimm and I headed towards a consensual romantic moment that fortunately was not consummated. As she wrote in her recent social media postings about that night, I said to her, "this doesn't feel right," and abruptly but completely our only intimate encounter ended. It was an awkward mistake.
Larkin may regret, as I certainly do, that the ill-advised tryst went even that far, but now, as then, I hold her in high esteem for her music and her courage as an artist.
I long ago apologized to my wife and family and told them the truth about this incident. My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

And it was a 'slanderous lie' last night.

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, wow. the whole thing is kind of weasely but this part especially.

not kind of, really. it seems like he is admitting it happened -- he doesn't refute any part of her claim -- but trying to recast it in this very passive voice type of way.

yikes. i guess he's "evolved" on this issue, then?

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape.

there’s really no reliable data on either thing — how many men get away with rape, how many women lie about rape— so I’m not sure how anyone can make this statement in confidence.

people’s opinions on specific incidents — which have no necessary relation to larger trends— seem to depend on what one finds more "believable"— that lots of men are capable of rape, or that lots of women are capable of lying about rape. in every case this is deeply embedded in ideology, personal experience, various cognitive biases, etc.

er, not "in confidence" but rather "with confidence"

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, i'm really sure this is his "hope"

gira is all christlike and shit

gira was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me you see

I am thankful that Michael made a statement so transparently abusive that I feel unmixed resolve in tossing out the terrible Swans records I never bought

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:02 (2 hours ago) Permalink

"it's a slanderous lie!"
"ok some of it was a lie"
"well... none of it was really a lie"
"actually... i did worse/more stuff that you don't even know about yet"

as if we haven't seen rapists follow this same pattern before.

it's disturbing to see so many comments from sexual assault survivors - not just jennifer gira - assuming that larkin is lying and that they have experienced 'real' 'true' rape.

In her case you'd have to say coming to accept her husband might be one of the rapists would be such a horrible thing to accept that any amou t of psychological twisting about of others experinces would be easier to cope with

i wouldn't be surprised if gira really believes that she consented, bc consent is such a gray area to a lot of ppl, but the problem is her telling him straight up that she did not consent and him refusing to acknowledge that. maybe if he had, they could have had a really useful conversation and things wouldn't have come to this.

and that's the point i get from larkin - a lot of men (and women) could make a serious mistake like this (of not seeking enthusiastic consent), it doesn't make them a monster; more than the rape itself, the aftermath is what was most damaging bc of his refusal to see what he had done. and that characterizes much of rape culture in general.

^^^ just1n3 you are doing a much better job of articulating what I was trying to upthread -- seems like larkin tried/is trying v.hard to meet him halfway on this, & he just refused to back down ('rape is monstrous + I am not a monster = that weren't no rape')

I mean I hate to be flip but everybody makes mistakes, right?

Men go crazy about "defending my good name" or w/e because they feel there is a bright line between themselves & the wrong kind of men, the men who rape, which line cannot be crossed without forever losing a part of their humanity; but in reality there is a thick fog, men cross the line all the time, knowingly or not, hoping that nobody sees them coming back; & "good name" is just another trump card dudes hold, which can be used to shut down the subsequent inquiry into what, exactly, they were doing over there on that particularly foggy night.

If one accepts (as one should) the basic feminist premise that power is distributed unequally between individuals in our society, & further accepts the notion that unpunished sexual assaults are widespread (especially in places like the music industry, where the kind of organizing & institutional oversight that could potentially push back against the boys' club do not exist), it seems to follow that one should tread lightest where he feels most unassailable. The very fact that "explanations" are so easily found & believed, and above all believed by us as we speak them, is an index which leads back to that same fundamental power imbalance.

... now if you'll excuse me I have to relisten to this song while soaking in the bitter irony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHcV0CSEvz4

I'll kill that man, I'll kill that man
I'll hunt him down & make him understand
What he's done to you

there’s really no reliable data on either thing — how many men get away with rape, how many women lie about rape— so I’m not sure how anyone can make this statement in confidence.

― wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:57 AM (9 hours ago)

https://rainn.org/statistics
http://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

Larkin posted this in an FB comment in response:

I have this statement to give in response to Michael's admission of guilt.
This is a perfect example of why we need to have education about consent. In a gentlemanly move he admits the act happened but cannot conceive of himself as a rapist. Thank you Michael Gira for your honesty. This is your truth as you remember it. Unfortunately, this was still rape. I said no to you many times before that day, begged you not to interfere with me sexually, even made it a part of a verbal agreement we had when I signed a contract with you. I asked you to promise that you would never have sex with me. You assured me that I could trust you. That is about as clear a NO as I could ever cry. I asked for this because I had had other experiences in my music career and I KNEW.

That night I was far too intoxicated to give you consent for any sexual act. The psychological effects of this betrayal were devastating. Even worse, when I finally confronted you about what you had done, you terminated my relationship with Young God Records, damaging my career and leading people to believe there was something wrong with me or my music.

In the end, this is about business. Art is my career. I have worked long and hard for this career, making incredible sacrifices along the way to continue to make music. The fact that a man in power can throw a women's life and work away like they are garbage, simply because she won't sleep with him, is an immoral injustice that happens to many, many women in music. I won't stand for it and neither should you.

We don't lose our common sense just because there's a sensitive topic. The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me). Gira isn't a trustworthy source either.

Nobody will ever know what happened, and nothing productive is going to come from this thread.

Nobody has quoted "Trust Me" yet, which is a strange oversight, in a kind of horrible way.

xp well-said *fucks off back to a more productive corner of ILX*

The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me).

There is absolutely nothing "crazy" about this in context, also can we please keep "crazy" tf out of this thread

yeah dlp that was very disappointing

I'm sorry, but it isn't. I see two very unreliable people, both making bad choices, and I have no idea what actually happened. As a result, I don't think this thread is serving any real purpose.

then fucking go away

Good advice.

Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations

in which she relates her experience

should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort

in which she casts her own experience as the standard for what rape is

which is an interesting tactic considering "it didn't happen" in the first place, right?

the idea of making a "retort" when someone says they were raped is so fucked up in the first place. this is like master class in how not to respond to an assault allegation.

^^^^^

"THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN AND SHE IS A LYING HARPY (but if it did.....it wasn't a real rape because i experienced a real rape and i know)"

"THIS IS A SLANDEROUS LIE AND SHE IS A HORRIBLE PERSON!!! (actually every thing she mentioned did happen, but it was a totally ok and consensual act and she's an amazing though troubled person)"

If Gira ever confesses, or if anything concrete ever comes out, I'll be back here in the blink of an eye to agree that he's a bad person. I just don't see a few days after a facebook post being an appropriate amount of time to form a judgement. I also don't judge people based on their writing skills.

given how much his story has changed in the last 24 hours, I'll be holding you to that.

this has nothing to do with "writing skills"

the history of rape allegations is full of impassioned defenses of the alleged rapist made by people who weren't there and have no basis to make a defense other than they like the guy.

lol @ "writing skills"

Moving as in evoking strong feelings, moron.

Strong feelings of what exactly (unless you mean that reading Gira's wife's invoked strong feelings of ickiness about her defense of him, I'm a bit flummoxed)?

Writing skills = not judging what actually happened based on how well people express themselves about it. That's usually used in the other direction, to discredit people. Again, no idea what happened. Only two people know. This thread=no purpose.

At the moment, anyway.

we are talking about the way the Gira's stories have changed drastically in the last 24 hours, not about how well they are expressing themselves.

Whether we know what happened back then, we know how he and his wife have responded since her first post. I'd say those responses reflect pretty badly on him.

We don't judge rape victims when their stories change, which is correct. I don't really see why holding off on judgement in the few days after all this is an issue. I'm hardly a Gira fanboy, fwiw, and could live without listening to his band again if need be. I think it's smart to wait and see how things look after some time passes. He may confess. He may not. Other people may come forward. Etc.

If only the brain had a mechanism to analyze new developments and apply them to previously held opinions

it does. it's called "thinking". executed properly, it takes time.

luckily, when time is short and evidence scant, your brain can also "jump to conclusions and argue about them on the internet". which is pretty fun.

inclined to believe larkin here. in no hurry to sell off swans albs.

...in the meantime, there's always the allegations against Ellis to speculate on!
(iirc they involved multiple witnesses in public places with conflicting accounts?)
should be a fun season for lovers of drama :/

The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me).

― dlp9001, Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:06 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

really, really missing the "crazy" component here, society is built on such agreements, though most people have the common sense and keeping-it-in-their-pantsingness not to require to be spelled out in words

not surprised gira walked back his post so quickly, the accusation had the sort of details it's a bit too hard to work into a lie for most people. as far as "holding off judgment" there's really no scenario here that doesn't make him look like a bad person, it's just a matter of degree

If you're at a point where you're asking someone to verbally agree not to have sex with you, who you plan to continue to have contact with, something has gone very, very wrong. Crazy doesn't mean she is crazy.

If you're at a point where you're asking someone to verbally agree not to have sex with you, who you plan to continue to have contact with, something has gone very, very wrong.

― dlp9001, Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:43 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no shit, but the "very, very wrong" isn't on her part here, nor is "plan to continue to have contact with" often a free choice. to take an extreme case, you could extend this same argument to abused children.

I don't really see the parallel, which does seem extreme. The main point is that this is clearly an unusual situation, and there aren't any reasonable guesses about what actually happened.

The parallel is being at a point where you're asking someone to verbally agree not to have sex with you, who you plan to continue to have contact with it.

And this isn't an unusual situation at all. Again, even the best-case scenario for Gira is garden-variety assholery.

the power dynamic between the two of them is what bothers me the most because it reminds me of irl stuff that friends have had to deal with, especially the not making public accusations, trying to stay on good terms, etc. stuff that in this case (and many others) gets used as "evidence" against the victim in terms of diminishing their credibility.

the power dynamic between the two of them is what bothers me the most because it reminds me of irl stuff that friends have had to deal with, especially the not making public accusations, trying to stay on good terms, etc. stuff that in this case (and many others) gets used as "evidence" against the victim in terms of diminishing their credibility.

― sarahell, Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:58 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes, exactly. this is why "plan to continue to have contact with" is seldom a free choice. for women, especially, there is a tremendous amount of pressure to be or at least appear forgiving, and not "difficult" or "emotional" or "unreasonable" or "crazy," that leads to such things.

Abused children don't have the option to walk away, so it's not a valid comparison. That's all. Look, I'm perfectly willing to believe that Gira did it. It doesn't strike me as inconceivable at all. At the same time, right now it's two people with different accounts of what happened. So I reserve judgement. How they present their cases on facebook, etc., doesn't really have any bearing on what actually happened.

there is a tremendous amount of pressure to be or at least appear forgiving, and not "difficult" or "emotional" or "unreasonable" or "crazy," that leads to such things.

GOD YES! I can't count the number of times I've heard men say these things about women they've been abusive towards, and because their audience admire the guy, or he is in a position to help their careers, their response is often, "Oh yeah, man, I've heard stories about her ... crazy...." though I hope that they are just saying that to the guy but not actually believing it, and really are thinking, "Uh, this guy is a total dick."

if someone is your label boss, overseeing your album, _living with you_, then no, it's not so easy to walk away either. sure, it's an option in the most literal sense, but so are many things that you're not going to do.

Xxpost what is your ultimate goal here? That people stop posting to the thread?

Why are you attempting to dictate that everybody require the same amount of evidence as the court of law prior to forming an opinion? Would you say to your kid "I'm sorry Tommy is picking on you, but I have to wait until the facts come out before I help you?"

Nobody's going to think less of you if you don't have an opinion yet but some have formed one based on the context of the data available. We all do it.

If new evidence comes out....people will adjust their opinions. Nobody here knows Gira or is causing irreparable harm by thinking the accusation sounds valid and that his reaction seems sketchy.

I'd kind of love it if there was a hiatus on the thread for a bit, yes. Nobody can dictate what happens on the internet.

Well if that's the case you have made that point 10+ times

classic

dlp already got one thread shut down this week he's just on a roll!

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story.

dude

"Wait for facts to come out" is usually a dog whistle on the Internet....

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, February 27, 2016 5:01 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Otm

Yeah otm

I don't really see the parallel, which does seem extreme. The main point is that this is clearly an unusual situation, and there aren't any reasonable guesses about what actually happened.

if you've heard more than a few stories of abuse - all kinds of abuse - you realize it's actually easy to make very, very reasonable guesses about what happened. there are always patterns. i doubt gira had much malicious intent, but as larkin mentions in one of her posts, his behavior was cowardly bc he wouldn't own up to what he had done, with or without intention to hurt her.

adult children who have been abused often maintain contact, even close contact, with their abusive parents.

GOD YES! I can't count the number of times I've heard men say these things about women they've been abusive towards, and because their audience admire the guy, or he is in a position to help their careers, their response is often, "Oh yeah, man, I've heard stories about her ... crazy...." though I hope that they are just saying that to the guy but not actually believing it, and really are thinking, "Uh, this guy is a total dick."

― sarahell, Saturday, February 27, 2016 10:02 PM (1 hour ago)

Also there is a major flaw in the idea that crazy = this didn't happen. There's a reason people get called "vulnerable adults" (or at least they do in the UK, anyway). Something of a tangent in this case but always worth pointing out.

I was serially assaulted in my sleep twice by the same man who had previously been a friend. I woke up the second time to find my pants open and the friend grasping my penis.

Both times I was very drunk and he waited for me to pass out. Worst of all..he was a coworker of mine.

I never filed any report, told my boss...and even with the man himself, we only talked about it once (where I told him I was upset by it) and he said it wouldn't happen again. It didnt, but he did one day make another unsettling request.

I stayed friends with him for 3 years after that despite feeling disgusted by it. Why? Cos I was scared. If he was capable of doing that to me in my sleep, what would he do if I shut him out? What if he got violent? He also knew where I lived

I even let him come to my grandmother's funeral. He hugged my mother who said he was always welcome. I couldn't tell her the truth in that moment.

I finally broke off contact with him years later. Note. ...I was drunk both times it happened. I didn't break off contact with the guy. But having the privilege of being male meant nobody I told questioned either thing as suspicious.

Her story is not unbelievable.