Why i Wont Be Watching Live8

Indeed he has read my mind.

I also think that Geldof is suffering from megalomania.

he's conflating, in a very momuslike move, musical conservatism with political conservatism. there are no doubt problems with live8, but they are more along the lines of what miccio just wrote. (yes, that was an xpost)

unlike david though i have no choice.

such is married life.

but i totally agree - tis a dire lineup.

McCulloch slams Live 8
Bunnyman takes aim at Geldof and Bono
http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/news/20050701_live8.shtml

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but they hoping that one of these guys from the G8 is on a quick 15-minute break at Gleneagles and sees Annie Lennox singing 'Sweet Dreams' and thinks, 'Fuck me, she might have a point there, you know' ... Keane doing 'Somewhere Only We Know' and some japanese businessman going, 'Aw, look at him...we should really fucking drop that debt, you know'. It's not going to happen, is it?"

Live 8: Hyde Park running order
The centrepiece of Live 8 day is the star-studded concert to be held in London's Hyde Park. The official running order has not been revealed, but an unofficial order and set list has been printed in a number of UK media.

The BBC News website has compared the lists and the below is a fair indication of what to expect from 1400 BST onwards.

# Sir Paul McCartney and U2: Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

# U2: One

# Coldplay: In My Place, Fix You

# Coldplay and Richard Ashcroft: Bitter Sweet Symphony

# Sir Elton John (introduced by Little Britain's Matt Lucas and David Walliams): Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting, The Bitch is Back

# Sir Elton John and Pete Doherty: Children of the Revolution

# Dido: Life for Rent, White Flag, Thank You

# Stereophonics: Songs to be confirmed

# REM: The One I Love, Losing My Religion, Imitation of Life, Everybody Hurts

# Ms Dynamite: Dy-na-mi-tee, Judgement Day, Redemption Song

# Keane: Everybody's Changing, Somewhere Only We Know

# Travis: Sing, Turn, Why Does It Always Rain On Me?

# Annie Lennox: Walking on Broken Glass, Sisters are Doin' It for Themselves, Sweet Dreams

# UB40: Food for Thought, Red Red Wine

# Snoop Dogg: Songs to be confirmed

# Razorlight: Somewhere Else, Golden Touch, Vice

# Madonna: Like a Prayer, Music, Ray of Light

# Snow Patrol: Chocolate, Run

# Joss Stone: I Had a Dream, Super Duper Love

# Scissor Sisters: Laura, Take Your Mama

# Velvet Revolver: Songs to be confirmed

# The Killers: Songs to be confirmed

# Sting: Every Breath You Take, Message in a Bottle, Desert Rose

# Mariah Carey: Make It Happen, Vision of Love

# Robbie Williams: Let Me Entertain You, Rock DJ, Feel, We Will Rock You

# The Who: Won't Get Fooled Again, Baba O'Riley

# Pink Floyd: Money, Comfortably Numb, Wish You Were Here

# Sir Paul McCartney: The Long and Winding Road

# Finale: Sir Paul McCartney joined on stage by George Michael and Sir Mick Jagger

no shit!

The whiney plank Chris Martin is featured as a new generation rock figurehead for the 00s.

The capitalist system indicative of "Coldplay" statements by EMI and HMV Group PLC will be making money out of the PR/ media generated from this event. This is not going to help Africa one jot.

Is anybody else on tenderhooks???

I'd wager that rather than help Africa this unholy trinity of aged mediocrity could cause the spontateous death of many people across the globe from sheer fucking boredom.

OK, im done.

I must admit I'm intrigued (is there that much ROOM for people outside the museum?), but still glad I'm not moving for a month.

I'm partially sympatheic to Stubbs' points, but raising/not raising money is hardly the point. We can be plenty cynical about whether or not this will help Africa in the short or long term, but how many international causes would kill to have this sort of exposure? I'd say that more people have learned more about African debt in the past two weeks than have learned about the Rwandan and Sudanese genocides in the past ten years. This is a bad thing?

Also, Geldof's megalomania isn't half that of people who make a big deal about NOT watching Live8 as a form of protest. So Stubbs doesn't want to watch, big fucking deal. How does *not* watching signify anything at all?

based on the inquirer's calculations, the parkway can only handle and audience of 250K - 500K people. 2M are expected to attend.

if mayhem does occur, i can watch it all from my west philly palace.

But with the power of photoshop...ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

I think this is missing the point a bit. In capsule form, admittedly, he seems to be arguing that there is simply *more* to be considered here than simply 'charity' or equating showing up/watching = having done something. If anything Stubbs is not arguing against *no* action but for a more thoroughly considered awareness that doesn't stop at the end of the day. Pace Barry, but what has been learned exactly by whom, and how will be it carried out, if at all?

Nobody's saying awareness is a BAD thing (though one question how much people are actually learning ABOUT world debt), but at this point why bother to hold the concerts? The 'awareness' has been raised, the shows themselves are just empty, self-gratifying pageantry. They don't prove anything to the G8 because people aren't showing up for The Cause but The Acts. Would they get the crowds if it was just a simple rally without a big all-star entertainment bonanza?

You can't separate these things. Awareness and funding never gets raised just out of thin air, there always has to be an event or a focal point.

If they announced at the shows that there would be no music but that everyone should stay at the sites for three hours to prove their solidarity to the cause, I'm curious how many people would stay.

Hypothetical situation:

If they held a fundraising/awareness dinner for Cause X, and they announced on the night of the dinner that everyone should stay at the banquet hall for three hours to prove their solidarity to Cause X, I'm curious how many people would stay.

Answer: not many, obv. Your line of reasoning starts looking silly in a slightly different context.

Hopefully it's clear what I was getting at.

Still, MindInRewind mostly OTM. Geldof shouldn't be above criticism just because of his ostensibly lofty goals, but these guys sound a little like cranks, and I'd even suspect that they feel they're being guilt-tripped by the reminder that there are poor folk elsewhere in the world.

The type of event that the organizers choose to hold is closely linked to how many people will be interested in taking part in the first place.

(about 5xposts to anthony)

x-post: you're assuming the influencing of G8 is a foregone conclusion. how is that the case?

this really just a larger variation of Mrs. Krabappel holding a HONK IF YOU LOVE COOKIES sign during the teacher's strike.

>the present-day brigade such as Coldplay and Dido, whose hugely popular yet unthreatening music signifies rock's decline into corporate functionalism

Okay, then.

Yeah, but in this case the cause isn't Wal-Mart or George Harrison. It's African debt. Sure, lots of the people who are going to the concerts or watching them on TV didn't know jack about this cause two months ago. They would have shown up no matter what the cause was. But I don't have a problem with the apparent "randomness" of all this. Nevertheless, a bunch of people will be showing up tomorrow because of the issue of African debt and therefore a lot of people will be learning about this particular cause who had no reason to know or care about it before.

"Instead of watching Live 8, I will be doing something considered morbid in these emotionalist times - I am going to go upstairs and have a good think."

and there are a million other things he can waste his time getting upset about.

# Sir Paul McCartney: The Long and Winding Road

# Finale: Sir Paul McCartney joined on stage by George Michael and Sir Mick Jagger

What a fucking shite finale. Here's hoping the mixing problems are as bad for Paul as they were 20 years ago. (Didn't he get booed during "Let It Be?" The last time I saw was when I was 5, so forgive me if I'm wrong..)

Oh wow, worst opening ever as well!

but Dan, again, why should they care about the concert goers at ALL? Is there any sign that the concertgoers will be upset if they don't erase the debt?

Snoop's set: "Signs", "Beautiful", "Drop It Like It's Hot"

this all reads like unnconnected points on someone's personal snobbery plane. and he wants us to know what kind of person he is. eer. you know he doesn't give a shit about debt and hunger, but will thoroughly enjoy jerking off to having a "good think" of such issues.

barry is OTM.

Whatev, I'll keep my mouth shut now.

END WORLD DEBT

If a celebrity does nothing, s/he's only interested in his/herself/money. If s/he tries to help, it's still bad because s/he's interested in self-promotion. So easy to criticize, yet what does he do? Oh right, have a think.

END WORLD DEBT

And Floyd are performing "Money." What's your point?

Well duh. Everyone knows rock can't change the world That's obviously a job for non-idomatic European free improv.

Does anyone else have the sneaking suspicion that the very last word of the article was changed?

(x-post)

You did read the rest of the article right? IT's very much keeping in tone.

massive groups of people can be a bit terrifying and what if it gets great ratings. also that's a lot of people who are going to passively agree despite what they knew or thought about it previously.

Is there any sign that the concertgoers will be upset if they don't erase the debt?

this is irrelevant, no?

(also though, who's going to put up with 2 songs by a band they like and a lot of nonsense if they don't care about the concept)

(Actually should I even go there or is the subject of present/past Wire editors verboten?)

i get stubbs confused with toop and feel bad about it; i just realised i've been doing it now after just skimming, not reading the actual article and frowning at how many people complained until a bit of my brain went "oh. stubbs. yeah"

"any mass of people": well of COURSE lots of other shows too - !

(except i have no upstairs in my flat so i will just go across thr corridor instead)

Nobody ever says "let's not bother talking about AIDS or lobbying for more funding for AIDS research because no matter what we accomplish, we're probably not going to find a cure anytime soon". Maybe the G8 will come with a superfantastic plan to help Africa, but if they won't then it doesn't mean that Live8 was a colossal failure and/or irrelevant.

ending developing world debt (is it just africa for this event as well? i haven't been paying attention) or even the shorthand position of "helping africa" is unopposable: who could be against this?

and here we have coldplay: WHO COULD BE AGAINST THEM?

I will not be watching live 8 because I do not have a television.

*actually of course anti-celinism IS the mainstream orthodox "corporate" position, endlessly pumped out by EVERY PUBLICATION AVAILABLE: hence it is impossible to deliver critical thought starting the stance "here am i, daringly hatin on the dion"

are you going to do the nightingales show? the death disco show was really good. robert is a genius. NIGHTINGALES FOR LIVE 8.

(ps. live eight - i am being marketed to care!)

norman i am going to be in newcastle, like, at the end of august, like.

People who say 'well at least I'm doing something' seem to want credit for good intentions whether their actions produce any long term good or not. Its more important for Geldof et al to show that they 'care' about the issue than to do anything purposful.

i am goin out to spend the afternoon w.marcello and other (non-ilx) friends, discussin free jazz etc (!)

it is our contribution to the debt

anyway, this guy's take is exactly the same as the one expressed on vh1's "best week ever."

but even though it fails to resonate with most people and actually gives others an excuse to be smug, liberal guilt mass culture can be the catalyst behind impassioned people deciding to work with NGOs and going into public service jobs and things that actually do have a beneficial effect. isn't our collective irritation at people who clearly don't mean it, maaaan worth the possibility of a minority of viewers effecting real change?

" i have faith in these desolate times"
terence trent d'arby

http://www.gaarde.org/ttd/ttd202.html

again, something good could come out of a bumper sticker. And if the point of this is to make something good happen they could have achieved a lot more with a lot less fanfare. This may well be a COMPLETE waste of time if the G8 ignores it.

it would be nice to think that the MPs and political people in charge of world debt might erase the debts of their own accord, but that probabhly wont happen, so if bono or geldof DO help the cause, then thats a good thing, man. dont shit on them until you know for sure they havent done any good.

theres no evidence it will change things, but there was no evidence colonisation would change things either, but they went ahead and did that anyway, didnt they? so no harm in trying, eh?

haha, I haven't even heard of those ads, hstencil, but christ.

yeah, getting rid of poverty would be nice, but fuck a pat robertson.

isn't the um point really that the giant big show is the pretext for a NON-professional non-pundit (=geldof and bono mainly) to get on telly a lot (for a short while) talkin abt political and economic stuff for a while, without havin worry abt partylines and what he can and can't say

he is "just a rock star" ie not some compromised special-interests spokesperson in a suit mainly worry abt how the org s/he works for comes out of it all

ie it is the unusual public interaction w.the Great and the Good which means "hard questions are asked" for once, not the usual back-slapping

i am in no way an admirer of bono's or geldof's political acumen or analysis BUT i am also not a big fan of the narrowness of who is ordinarily allowed to discuss big political issues

maybe this kinds of thing lets a bit of random daylight into the smug fug of the punditocrariat?

(disclaimer: i don't think i believe what i just wrote)

then why is everybody seemingly threatened by mr. wire dude when he discusses this big political issue?!?!? i mean i sorta agree with ya mark but what's good for bono's good for the gander, too, or something.

there is something especially aggravating at commentary announcing itself as bold and thoughtful when it is to be heard everywhere: i wd be more interested if he explored the emotionalist consensus aspect of his OWN position and why - DESPITE its communal kneejerkiness - it is still correct

actually to be fair stubbs is saying that the thinking will start once the piece is over, which is at least honest - but what a gyp!!!!!: "when i finish this article i am going to go upstairs to write something v.interesting which you lot don't get to read!"

...who could still go join an NGO and do some actual good. a lot of the people i know who do work like this have felt their convictions bolstered by acts that are absurdly pompous and/or preachy. i'm all for pointing out Bono et al's self-aggrandizing antics, or the fact that the coverage here in Canada is filled with Budweiser ads, but it seems a stretch to suggest that it's not going to do any good at all.

a lot of the pundit-rage directed at Live8 is thinly disguised scorn for the apathy of the public. what's wrong with the people who decide to get off their ass and do something because of Live 8? okay, it reflects badly on their sense of civic duty that they needed a rock star to tell them what to do, but isn't the effect the same as if they had thought of it themselves?

re:Mark's Satanic Advocacy, the only thing that bothers me about Geldof and Bono gettin on TV to talk politics is that they usually try to imply that world leaders are generally corrupt and self-serving, while rock stars are in fact noble crusaders with no agenda other than world peace. nine times out of ten, of course, it's the other way around.

(i think THIS idea - however goofy it sounds written down - is built into rock ideology btw: i think it's what stubbs means by "threatening records")

(nor do i entirely think it a bad idea: the problem isn't corruption, really, either - there's plenty of that to go round - its that at least some of the counter-representatives need both an appropriate sphere of wonkishness and the gift of political horse-sense, to make stuff happen) (and to use their records to help the record-buyers grasp what's happening and indeed shape it)

alt-explanation: i am goin insane here

Also Instead of watching Live 8, I will be doing something considered morbid in these emotionalist times - I am going to go upstairs and have a good think.

...so that's what they call masturbating now?

I WONDERED INTO A GAY PRIDE HAPPENING AT THE NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY! that was actually amusing. 'oh what is this? OH GOD IT IS A GAY PRIDE HAPPENING AND I'M ALONE! WITHOUT MY FEMALE PARTNER... OH NO ...!!! ha ha ha... nah, it was a lovely day. i bought movies, the new white stripes album and just wondered about and now am making smoothies at my flat and watching dario argento's TRAUMA.

FREUDIAN SLIP!! OH NO!!!!!! WHAT COULD THIS ALL POSSIBLY ME????

plus i phoned an old friend to discuss a dream that i had about him. he had gotten horribly fat. really really 'jerry springer' fat. i hadn't seen him in a long time and was waiting on a porch. and when he came out all fat and stuff i was so digusted i made excuses and left. and then i ran into my dead mother who told me my father was actually DONNY OSMOND???? i was happen at first because i hate my my dead father and then i realised that it was donny osmond.

OH NO!! more freudian slips!! ME ME ME. the meaning is me! thus i think all of life revolves around me. which it does in a weird way.

Local charities banned from Canada's Live 8
Last Updated Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:50 EDT
CBC Arts

Charities that help the needy in Barrie, Ont., have been forbidden from
using Canada's Live 8 concert to gather donations.

Live 8 organizers told the Canadian Press this week that allowing the city's
relief organizations to participate would "dilute the focus" of the event.

"That decision came right from Sir Bob Geldof, himself," Live 8 spokesperson
Katherine Holmes told the news agency.

Geldof is the driving force behind Live 8 ­ a series of concerts being held
around the world on July 2. The goal is to put pressure on the leaders of
the G-8 nations ­ who will meet in Scotland from July 6-8 ­ to modify their
Africa policies.

The Canadian edition of Live 8 is taking place at Park Place in Barrie, Ont.

According to CP, local charities in Barrie say they are disappointed with
the decision.

"It's a free concert and we had hoped that we could get permission to run a
food drive," Paula King, the head of the Elizabeth Fry Society, said. "We
figured this would be the ideal time and spot to raise awareness about
poverty in Barrie."

As well as running a shelter for homeless women, King's organization also
hands out food to the city's hungry. The society initially proposed the idea
of a food drive several weeks ago, finally getting word on Tuesday from Live
8's leaders that it would not be allowed to take part.

"We had everything in place," said King. "We had volunteers, we had trucks,
we had boxes, all we needed was permission to go."

The people behind Live 8 say they were approached by a number of charities ­
all of which were rebuffed.

Bob Geldof (AP photo)

"Everybody wanted a piece of this pie because it's so huge and that's why
they said 'No' to everybody," said the Barrie Food Bank's Michelle Simons,
who had planned to collect donations from the outdoor concert's 35,000
expected attendees. "It's too bad because this is a missed opportunity."

According to a study by the Ontario government, the number of people using
homeless shelters in Barrie rose by 1,235 per cent between 1994 and 1998,
the largest increase of any city in the province.

Holmes says, unlike the original Live Aid concerts 20 years ago, this
weekend's event is about bringing attention to the plight of Africa, not
raising funds.

"It's about raising awareness for global poverty," she said. "Mr. Geldof
said it best: 'It's about opening your minds, not your wallets."'

Bryan Adams, Barenaked Ladies, and the Tragically Hip are among the
headliners who will perform Saturday in Barrie.

'Let me entertain you'. No thanks, you coked up twat.

also, post-punk as "political" my ass. one fucking band, gang of four, does not a "movement" make.

*i do actually like some billy b songs: just NOT ENOUGH OF THEM

(my argt abt popstars as counter-representatives on behalf of "orindary language politics" above could easily in this case be elaborated to suggest that the Live8-as-pretext wz allowing eg bono and geldof to function as destruvtive and/or distractive critical rivals also to eg the kinds of activity stew is talkin abt: viz a kinda populist anti-political end-run ---- i am very conflicted on this, as i think even in the glory days of politicised rock rallying, cf rock against racism, there wz a large and tricky tension between the um vanguard art of the times and "what helped the movement")

cf noise-is-prophecy etc etc

those who pitch the all-art-is-mere-superstructure line are basically sayin "who cares if my political pamphlet is abominably badly written? it's your duty to march whether or not i persuade you!!"

I agree that on a grand scale, people may think about "me" first re: charity events - the ego is hard to deny, our culture is very what-do-I-get-from-it?, but I just feel, er, uncomfortable about saying it doesn't matter what the motivation is, as long as people are "made aware" and show up. If the event were more like the one described above by Stew or like the one Bragg attended, then motivation wouldn't be a factor - minds would change once on site. But what was displayed at Live8 that would change one's perception about the state of the world? Watching (some of) it, I was pretty disgusted at the missed opportunities for this. (that is, it *was* about the music, no matter what everyone said!)

And that fucking finger snapping? Turns my stomach with its flippancy.

(obv dog/sandwich interface was punishment for not watching L8 from word go bah humbug)

my first act as wire editor will be to put rachel stevens' furry animal collection on the cover.

It cannot and it did not in 1985...."

in which case why get so het up about it all? if stubbx0r really thinks this, why does he get so upset about bands who are signed to ARGH STOP THE KAPITAL corporate rock labels?

my entire analysis rests on this fragile point

well, wtf are some oversimplifications about african poverty going to actually do? everyone, even noel gallagher, knows that this won't make any difference to the outcome of gleneagles. the final communique will have been hammered out by diplomats before the event even starts. all it is is a showpiece for leaders to recalibrate their public international relationships. levels of aid, debt cancellation or, for that matter, climate change will never be materially affected by the general populus' awareness incrementally increasing.

i'd have a lot more sympathy if they were at least trying to raise money again, but with a better structured action plan for distributing it. all this acheives is massaging the already hyper-inflated egos of ageing rock stars and, much worse, a self-satisfied public who think that by watching a concert they'll get the measure of and in some way help the problems of an entire continent. it's breathtaking arrogance on all sides.

if you want to make a difference then donate some money to a reputable charity or aid agency but don't presume to either 'understand' or 'sympathise' when the overwhelming response coming from africa itself is we don't want your shallow pity.

we-ell, you know. obviously an informed public is more likely to be able to do something some time than an ignorant one, or one whose best strategy is going upstairs to think and/or listen to noncorporate rock (who this encompasses i don't know).

"well, wtf are some oversimplifications about african poverty going to actually do?"

this is going to be hard to map, isn't it? it's a bit like saying, 'what are some oversimplifications about law and order going to do?' and the answer there is: help right-wing governments get elected.

exactly. so can we please not have oversimplifations about political issues spouted by hirsute idiots to gullible morons ruining primetime tv.

xpost. watching mariah coo over an african child - dressed up in authentic tribal costume - encouraging her to singalong with paul n the gang to seargent pepper was probably the most nauseating thing i've had the misfortune to see on itv. other than mariah's face, of course.

this is mark's point but whatare you saying? that issues that affect everyone should be 'left to the experts'? my point about oversimplifications cuts both ways of course: it's in part because the right is allowed to seize the populist initiative that we have such bad oversimplifications. we need better oversimplifications.

I saw all up to + incl Keane before driving to Brighton to play gig. Watched the rest yesterday.

Coldplay, Dido and Stereophonics were unspeakably poor. REM were splendid although they didn't do the songs listed upthread (Imitation, Hurts and MITM, IIRC). I enjoyed the lovely Miss Dynam-i-t-e-e, and even Keane. Indie fops, yes, but hell he can sing!

yep, totally agree with that. i think there is a place for celebrities helping to highlight specific issues - i think the un ambassador thing actually works fairly well - but when the problems of an entire continent are hijacked by the self-misunderstood forces of popular conservatism disguised as radicalism, then we have a problem.

i'm not at all against popular initiatives, but much better if they're from the bottom up. i don't know who precisely has organised the march on gleneagles and that's one of the reasons why it strikes me as a better thing than live8. outpourings of popular anger better than coordinated crocodile tears mixed with shite music. etc. etc.

xpost - why is mariah so honest? (and no i don't think that it is a virtue if that honesty gets caught up in a sick piece of orientalist theatre)

Did U2 do much? Folk kept talking about "Vertigo" being highlight of day rivalled only by ROBBIEANGELSYAYYY so I'm not sure about that.

ps i wasn't really disagreeing w.stew up-thread, just makin the point that when ppl like billy b begin to believe "it's not really about the music" then this suffers - it IS always also about the music, which is why mariah's scetion was so charming --- she just leaked unfeigned joy to be there, and good for her

maybe JK should be made wire editor?

i am unsure about the wisdom of replying.

xpost the Who looked way better than the last reunion...

well no it wasn't awesome, a lot of it was boring and annoying and self-important (rock stars in self-importance shockah) (as adorno teaches us zzz) but some of it wz grebt fun and silly and fascinating

some of the BB singles were ok i guess

i mean - what were they doing there,

the most surreal part of the show ..

I don't see how it's radical to declare that, in both aesthetic and political terms, live8 was a pile of shite. it's pretty obvious if you've got one ear and/or half a brain.

As for Mariah 'leaking' unfeigned joy. whilst that's quite a unique image, it doesn't excuse her from taking part, however sincerely, joyfully and unwittingly, in a horribly misguided act of cultural appropriation.

the whole 'well it's silly but it's really rather funny too' attitude is pathetic amoral, apolitical bilge.

On this basis alone perhaps it was okay.

He sang "One Hundred Years" = he did in fact say it, or rather sing it.

it isn't radical at all, that's the problem. but alas i only have half a brain, mariah carey culturally appropriated the other half.

and that instead of giving money we can beg our government to do something about it.

the main point was that even if you do happen to like those acts, treating the whole thing as no more than a consumable entertainment spectacle is Not a Good Thing. In my book. which i'm sure is different from yours.

obviously.

It was just a massive publicity device really - I think too many of the performers made the mistake of attributing anything more than that to it in the way that they did. In another way it almost seemed like a proud military air show type thing in that it was a demonstration of what can happen on 'this side', as if aimed at the African leaders not included on the original list of 18 for whom debts would be wiped out, due to domestic corruption issues. I wouldn't rule this sort of thing out of the organisers thinking at least, given the climate and context within which it operated.

I think this is very true, except 'this side' isn't liberals but the music industry. Musicians can get large groups of people together if they say they're Changing The World. That was proven yet again.

"few people knew that diamond mining is some fucked-up shit" -- kanye west, 2005

People know smoking causes cancer but they don't give up. Live8 akin to massive government campaign drive to persuade more people to quit, where quit = being more careful about choices as consumers wrt what impact they have on less developed/more exploited nations...that should've been the idea at least, but difficult to drive through to people generally let alone at a massive concert/singular event because ultimately it means reducing oil consumption, not buying diamonds from certain places etc. Might've been nice if these issues could've been brought up more via the short films between bands etc. - shots of kids dying just makes people think 'more money needed' rather than 'end corruption and exploitation spiral'.

I pretty much agree with you anyway Miccio, just interested in exploring the perceived logic behind it all from the organisers viewpoint.

I'm sure the logic was basically for Geldof to remind the politicans how easily he can get large groups of people together. Granted he did that by holding a giant free concert and saying that by merely acknowledging his existence you're changing the world, but he did do it.

ALso for Live Aid, the individual was persuaded that each and every one of them could help i.e. give cash, but at Live Aid the message that I got was that individual action is pretty much worthless if the heads of state are just going to sit on their arses. Which is both demoralising and also not entirely true.

the thing that made him eventually capitulate wasn't, curiously enough, IMF structural adjustment programmes, but rather bono ringing up and saying paul mccartney was willing to start the show singing 'it was 20 years ago today' with bono. at which point geldof, thought, 'fook that would LOOK amazing...', let's have another totally ineffectual mass love n cry in.

Bastard! I knew he wasn't to be trusted!

as an element in critical address of events like this, it is reactionary ventiloquist posturing: its political effect = casting an unnecessary and pointless pall of suspicion over such criticism

one problem w.eg the anarchist march is that it* too believes it needs to pimp off the Spectacle for its political effect, and then gets all resentful when someone w.better media chops elbows it ruthlessly to one side: it may have been disabling yesterday, cz the organisers of the G8 protest weren't able to get their heads round USING L8 instead of just grumbling abt it ("using" doesn't mean approving); but if they had, they wd still be leaving themselves prey to the same contradictions in ref Spectacular Politics

in fact, as stew rightly says, above (quotin billy bragg) the actual political heft of the march derives from the arrival in one place of lots of difft people interacting in small and manifold ways - realising they are not alone etc; just ppl meetig ppl

(being primarily pluralist and anarchist in nature, many of the consequential political effects will cancel each other out, of course)

thing is, this ALSO happens w.huge events like L8, they catalyse a giant number of small encounters (inc.the IL8 discussions, where the encounters were "virtual", as if that makes a diff): despite considerable attempts to corrall and mediate all the micro-energies formed here, it's like herding a million squirrels, they WON'T all cancel out or come to nothing... there will be an aggregate vector effect (it might be right-wing, as NRQ says abt "law and order", but it doesn't really follow that it HAS to be: the context of "law and order" trivial discussions is Climate of Fear; the context here wz Climate of Conviviliaty) (and some of the complaints abt this resemble sad man in pub muttering abt folks having nice time along the bar)

[interesting eg to note: that it wz possibly easier to "get something out of" (ie give yrself stuff to explore and discuss) (stubbs's not-entirely vapid idea of politics) if you had access to the different broadcast strategies in the difft places, and could bounce from one to another, comparing... channel-zapping is no more intrinsically political that turning yr TV off altogether obviously, but it is a heartening tool if you want to study quite how chaotic and incoherent and contradictory the alleged STULTIFYING MEDIUM has become, and quite how much information the SPECTACLE basically allows through, if yr let yrself stay alert enough to chase it)

i don't know what the "overall" political effect of L8 will be: its size and its um spectrality seem to be unprecedented; i'm a bit suspicious of the kind of instant analysis that claims to know (bcz it isn't grounded in politics at all, it's mostly grounded in fatuous anti-political assumptions like "all ppl who like maria carey are morons"; haha or distinctly less problematic assumptions about the infinite crapness of the inside of bono's head)

nevertheless i still think the fundamental politic enablement goin on here is the one i devil's advocated up-thread - it demonstrates the crowd-gathering and media-herding credentials of non-professional "non-politicians" like bono to be invited into smoky rooms w.dick cheney and SPEAK THEIR MINDS free of (as they see it) political cant

and as above, i am still ambivalent about this, bcz the resistance to it as a process SO CLEARLY maintains a (studenty and suspect) element of "let the GROWN UPS talk abt politics" --- i guess i am interested in the sheer "random-shunt" element of projects like this, and sardonic towards the kneejerk despair that, seein as it's CLEARLY not goin to do what's INTENDED AND CLAIMED, the only outcome can be more awfulness

*("it too": ok i know a march can't itself have "beliefs", an anarchist march least of all - but think of the feeble street-theatre most marches run to: a lot of ppl out there made their placards w.a view to seeing themselves later on telly... it is student rag-week time)

'nevertheless i still think the fundamental politic enablement goin on here is the one i devil's advocated up-thread - it demonstrates the crowd-gathering and media-herding credentials of non-professional "non-politicians" like bono to be invited into smoky rooms w.dick cheney and SPEAK THEIR MINDS free of (as they see it) political cant'

All you need to know to discount this kind of rubbish is that Bob Geldof has said that Bush is doing more for Africa than any other previous president. which is neither true nor an appropriate statement to make about an entire continent.

as for brown and blair, they'll be rubbing their hands at the prospect of something passing for a protest co-opting itself into something that's digestible within a G8 communique that will undoubtedly be breathtakingly limited in its ambition. geldof will say 'we helped acheive this' and people will relax back into their armchairs for another 20 years.

the problem with this thread is that people like Mark S are using critics' disliking musicians like Mariah as a way of discounting the view that Live8 might not be a good thing politically. when the fact is, this view plainly couldn't give a shit about the politics of the situation as long as there's a bunch of half-arsed pomo theory short-hand to pour scorn on the suggestion that ms carey aint that great.

'i am interested in the sheer "random-shunt" element of projects like this'

that's a great way of saying, i'm interested in just observing, apolitically, from the sidelines because i don't have the guts or the inclination to cast a value-judgement. more than anything else, it's pure laziness - which is, of course, exactly what you'd accuse the naysayers of.

It's totally going to do what is intended. It DID do it. A lot of people watched TV and saw bands, proving that celebrities can successfully use their attention-getting powers In The Name Of Good. That's why VH1 made a "Thank You" ad for them.

well, you sure manned the hell up by POSTING ABOUT IT ON ILM!! watch out bush.

-- Dadaismus (dadai

Ha ha ha! 10/10!

is this true? i think he has said it about Blair but where was it said about Bush?

xpost

I saw The Omega Tribe a couple of times in the early '80's, will that do?

x-post: not if you want to know THE TRUTH ABOUT BONO.

that is a morbidly stupid argument based on a false dichotomy which goes you either go out there and work for VSO or you have no right to carp from the sidelines when someone puts up something live8. i'm criticising an intellectual position, not asserting my own credentials of 'revolutionary purity'. that's just an ironic way of attempting to limit freedom of expression and, as such, i feel it quite appropriate that i should call you a thick fuckwit.

roffle. hi calum.

....i guess i am interested in the sheer "random-shunt" element of projects like this, and sardonic towards the kneejerk despair that, seein as it's CLEARLY not goin to do what's INTENDED AND CLAIMED, the only outcome can be more awfulness'

xpost. that's the intellectual position i'm criticising.

"All you need to know to discount this kind of rubbish is that Bob Geldof has said that Bush is doing more for Africa than any other previous president. which is neither true nor an appropriate statement to make about an entire continent.

as for brown and blair, they'll be rubbing their hands at the prospect of something passing for a protest co-opting itself into something that's digestible within a G8 communique that will undoubtedly be breathtakingly limited in its ambition. geldof will say 'we helped acheive this' and people will relax back into their armchairs for another 20 years."

but the problem with this is that live8 set itself up specifically as a political event with the frequently declared aim of influencing the outcome of Gleneagles. The very nature of putting on a rock concert to that effect - immersing the politics of it in the brief sensory jolt that people might (quite legitimately) get from seeing Mariah Carey perform - depoliticises the issues into, as someone said upthread, a bunch of erroneous oversimplifications that can and will actually work towards limiting perceptions of the manifold complexities at work in 54 different african countries. the entire thing obfuscates the real issues and to quietly admit that whilst still sitting back and enjoying that sensory jolt makes you complicit in a very insidious process of depoliticisation.

and i've never read any Debord.

i. everyone is entitled to hate on mariah and to say so
ii. but this is IRRELEVANT to the theory of the politics of the spectacle - which IF TRUE, is just as true (and in fact more riskily true) if the music is deemed GOOD by the political agitators
iii. i'm not against marches and strikes, i'm very VERY VERY pro them BUT i do think that "march culture" has (as the result of its own opportunist co-optation of rock-festival culture back down the line) (cf RAR eg) got caught up in the media-created nexus of "sending a message to the govt", when that isn't what festivals and marches are really about
iv. hence my feeling that what's actually going on here is that eg bono is shoutin: "political agitators stole this from the beadles; we're stealing it back!!"
v."this kind of rubbish" erm i think it is rubbish too (though i do think it is what lord blob thinks he's doing): that's why i wrote DEVIL'S ADVOCATE in giant letters...
vi. like miccio i think this is SAME OLD SAME OLD, not a sinister new development, so i am not particularly bothered about its bad political fall-out effect in SPECTACULAR terms (this is where we had already reached): had L8 not happened, i don't believe FOR A SECOND that big-media coverage of G8 (inc.protest) would in ANY WAY have caused blair-brown to not rub their hands
vii. where i am interested - as i said - is in the "micropolitical" effect, which i think is far harder to interpret or predict currently (stubbs's orignal essay was about THINKING: i am sorry if jaytoday thinks that thinking is in itself counter-revolutionary cz i don't)
viii. to reiterate, it's true that i am quite suspicious of BIG EVENT COUNTER-POLITICS, bcz i think it is already SO hostage to thinking about news-cycles and "influencing the good and the great", which is "top-down" thinking; by "micropolitical" i mean what billy bragg means - i know it is a bit of a buzzword, and i know i do not always write clearly when i'm thinking out loud, v.fast - which is that the purpose (and the VALUE) of these kinds of political event is the social commingling of all the people at it... but if this is true of G8-protest it must also be true of L8

so
A: if yr crit of L8 and G8 is via Spectacle Theory, then you must at least consider that there is a Spectacle Theory problem w.march culture
B: if you decide - correctly i think - that the value of march culture comes NOT in the headlines but in the provisional community generated, the sense of solidarity (which is not a Totalised Monolith obviously), then you at least have to grant that the same occurs at something like L8
C: in which case yr crit of one side and yr support of the other has to shift somewhat - not least to explain WHY a march culture provisional community necessarily produces good politics and a multi-screen festival culture can ONLY produce bad politics
D: what i dislike this dichotomy as an assumption is that it seems to cede ALL "culture-at-a-distance" to the enemy --- maybe it's right to do so, but i've never seen it proved, and i think the assumption carries within it the logic of despair, the assumption of its own defeat

x-post actually I don't think this entirely same old same old, I can't think of a benignrock event that ever had less certainty in creating something positive. Called attention to the same problem it did twenty years ago only no money raised, MOCKED the value of money being raised. They only ask for one to pray for benign imperialism and to buy ipods.

'if you decide - correctly i think - that the value of march culture comes NOT in the headlines but in the provisional community generated, the sense of solidarity (which is not a Totalised Monolith obviously), then you at least have to grant that the same occurs at something like L8'

hmm. well, yes, to an extent... i guess. but something so hideously over-organised, orchestrated, categorised and delimited in every possible way? yes, there will be many small, synergetic positive encounters but i just can't get away from the belief that, overall, for the right here right now of global politics, live8 was not a good thing.

(i think if you can claim to read it then you are just projecting a passive "consensus" onto a very large number of people)

but then it seemed worth opening things out into a proper discussion - partly to work out what *i* wz thinkin, cz i went into devil's advocate mode to try and worry out a niggly instinct i had in reaction against eg the stubbsian position

incidentally and by way of parallel, when you went thru the entrance to glastonbury they fastened a make poverty history white-band thing around your wrist at the same time as they clamped on the glastonbury ribbon pass thing.

i mean, i'm very grateful that that's really the ultimate amount of violence with which political culture co-opts in the UK, but still, it's a bit presumptuous if you ask me.

"it's a rat trap!! and we've been CAUGHT!!"

How much album sales has went up after live8 so far.

1 Pink Floyd - Echoes: The Best of Pink Floyd - 1343%
2 The Who - Then and Now - 863%
3 Annie Lennox - Eurythmics Greatest Hits - 500%
4 Dido - Life For Rent - 412%
5 Razorlight - Up All Night - 335%
6 Robbie Williams - Greatest Hits - 320%
7 Joss Stone - Mind, Body and Soul - 309%
8 Sting - The Very Best of Sting & The Police - 300%
9 Travis - Singles - 268%
10 Madonna - Immaculate Collection - 200%

How much album sales has went up after live8 so far.
(tho that could easily be 100 sales of a cd compared to 1 last week...)
the actual numbers would be more interesting.

Mr Castaldo added that the effect would become more pronounced during this week.

No doubt said whilst rubbing his hands with a large smile on his face.