Manic Street Preachers : Clasur Neu Methiant

The ultimate "all mouth,no trousers band". Yet when they open their mouths out comes a torrent of shit. "Nicky has the wisdom and grace of the true poets". HAHAHA!! "Napster is evil". You fucking goon. They dismiss America as evil (mainly cos they sell fuck all records there) yet their music is turgid, bombastic stadium rawk. JD Bradfield has a woeful, constipated voice too. Dud.

They may as well split up.

So definitely not classic but also not quite dud.

Prior to TIMT, fucking classic. Everything Must Go isn't as good as the first three albums, but about half of it is salvageable as decent to extremely good rock. As far as I'm concerned, The Holy Bible is the album of the 90s - I actually want to ask you, Dr. C, about the rent-a-slogan lyrics because if anything the first two albums are far worse with that sort of thing, so I was wondering what you considered rent-a-slogan lyrics. THB strikes me as the most mature, thought out compositions the Manics have put forth, before or after, and I honestly can't think of too many lyrics that'd strike me as rent-a- slogan - ifwhiteamerica... maybe? "Cool groovy morning fine / Tipper Gore is a friend of mine": I can see that as what you're talking about. Stuff like Yes though, I can't see that in any way symbolising the sort of "Madonna drinks Coke and / So should you" empty ranting that they often get derided for.* This is of course because the majority was written by Richey instead of Nicky, but I digress away from the point.

They've really put out some of the class act singles of the 90s, and Richey always looked good and gave good press, and isn't that what being classic is all about anyhow? So, first four albums (I'll give a by-pass to the half-good EMG): classic, more classic than Elvis. TIMT and possibly the next album (I mean, fucking hell, Baby Elian?): dud dud dud. But it's complicated, cos they really are just like two different bands.

And yes, as everyone is well aware, I could be considered a member of the Cult of Richey. What's it with you? ;P

* For the record, Madonna did Pepsi. Everyone but Nicky Wire knows this. Dumbass.

Classic, sure. THB = great. Opening of "The Intense Humming of Evil" = transcendent. Besides, they glammed it up lookswise, at least at one time. Automatically an improvement. ;-)

Though you're right, he would still be alive. Maybe I could work in some conjugal visits into my busy schedule.

This thread is quickly devolving into something unlike what it's meant to be about. Someone, quick, post something related to something besides Steve Lamacq's carved face or how gorgeous Richey was.

I quite liked the melancholic "I've failed in life / Could I live up to them?" feel of "If You Tolerate This ..." but all the other singles I heard from TIMTTMY were boring as hell and so I never felt motivated to listen to the album. They embarrass me now, and I'd feel much better about them if they just went away forever. Also, much of my respect for the Manics then came from my thinking their rhetoric was more original than it was - I wasn't aware that their hippy-bashing (Nicky's, especially), and the links they made between the crusty movement and public schools, were simply rehashed punk-era sloganeering (admittedly at a time when hippiedom was going through its biggest post-punk resurgence with Megadog, Castlemorton, The Orb, Pink Floyd becoming "OK to like" again, and Ultramarine in their way; looking back, it's as though MSP were trying to reassert punk orthodoxy at the time when, after 15 years, its grip was finally faltering).

I can still see where Nicky Wire is coming from with the anti- American, anti-imperialist stuff, but if the music is shit, what's the point? And the cosying up to Castro is, of course, archetypal kneejerk belief that, if corporate America is evil, anyone who suppresses it must be good, when in most cases both extremes are as bad as each other (it's like the idea that, if you hated Thatcher, you must look up to Scargill; it's no surprise that Wire so loves that rabid Northern ethnic authenticist posing as a "socialist"). So, yeah, classic in their time and context, but total dud outside it, and they've been in that dud status for long enough now.

Oh, and by the way, the entire band needs to stop eating for a month. I mean, for god's sake, that Q cover...

All mouth and no trousers indeed.

It's the "best" Wire quote ever because it's so out-there stupid. Isn't that a bit obvious? I don't believe it was brought up in the context of being funny or intelligent, unless I've completely misunderstood carsmilesteve (that's a mouthfull, can I call you Steve?).

The crap Nicky used to spew was funny in the day, in general, because it was such a contrast to the sort of mamby-pambyness that littered the scene. The problem is, he's gotten far too old to STILL be doing it; he's gone from being a twat to being just sad. Poor thing.

Anyone remember the Select photos where you could see the top of Nicky Wire's pubes? Yuck.

Anyhow, this whole discussion about Mr. Wire has all become moot because I am thinking a bit and I've recalled that I don't believe he originally said that Hitler comment. I BELIEVE that was the work of one R. Edwards in either Melody Maker or NME. If Ned's still reading this: you're an archivist, you have all those back issues, could you read thru every single one of them til you find the quote for me? Thanks chap ;)

I still think Nicky needs to be force-fed Coca Cola.

Anyhow, my dad likes the Manics too, actually. I reckon he wouldn't, however, if I told him Richey never played guitar, and just sort of stood there with it, posing, like a rock 'n' roll Milli Vanilli. I think that's a concept that would make his head explode. NOT...REAL...ROCK...ARRRGH...

Manics: due dud Due Dud Due DUD DUD DUD. Anyone who still loves the Manics and is over 19 needs a kicking for being so fucking cretinous that they still believe that shite.

Context is so important in pop: contextualising the Manics makes them look likes dumb adolescents (including Richey, the brightest but most stupid of them all for getting involved with a bunch of thick retro- rock no-hopers) venerative for a past already surpassed.

J

A few websites, including a rather serious timeline found here attribute it to Richey. The quote was "We will always hate Slowdive more than Adolf Hitler."

November 1991, it says.

I have never owned a Manics record but I like them. If they are thick then I don't know what that makes most pop stars. I guess they've kind of painted themselves into a corner, but still, I can't help but admire their awkardness.

Mind you, when I first saw them on Snub TV doing 'Motown Junk' I thought they were complete idiots. I think I lumped them in with Birdland.

Simon Price once remarked to Steven Wells and me, over a curry in Harlesden (see what I mean) as follows — pause for effect: "It is reMARKable [imagine a slight Welsh lilt here] that the three most important and influential bands in rock'n'roll history are British."

So who d'you mean, said Swellsy and I, agog — well, perhaps not agog, but certainly intrigued (bearing in mind that SimonP was at this time still in his High Peacock-Goth fashion phase, all gold and blue and bigt hair and time-consuming facepaint).

"The Beatles, the Sex Pistols aand — " and here SIMON paused for effect, " — Visage."

After this, I can forgive him anything, frankly. And who cares if he meant it or not?

The Visage revival starts here...

Am I alone in thinking the "Ashes to Ashes" video is great?

I am very bored. I have a lot of work to do but no will to do it so I am posting to dead threads. I'm hungover, sorry.

`Tis the best thing they ever did, if y'ask me.

I hate their hypocrisy. This great moral band, yet Richey said he didn't care if a thousand beagles died for his hairspray, lambasted animal rights, played a concert for a charity that is criticised for its experiments on animals. I hate them for that. Richey should have been put in a toxicology lab and then he'd have a reason to complain about his life the tosser.

I hate them for selling their shitty, lameass politics to kids. I hate them for the concert in Cuba which was so fucking dumb. I hate them for their apparent image as a woman friendly band and that stupid video for 'Little Baby Nothing' where the girl stomps on all the porn mags and yet Richey paid a hooker in Bangkok for a hand job and told any journalist who would listen about it. And Nicky and Richey spent most of their first tour shagging groupies.

I hate them for the durge of the recent albums and singles. At least when Richey was around you had some pretty decent tracks - 'Motorcycle Emptiness', 'MASH theme', 'La Tristesse', 'Life Becoming a Landslide', 'From Despair to Where', 'This is Yesterday', 'Yes' - compare to the shit on the albums after The Holy Bible.

I hate them cos even their first three albums have tons of shit on them as well.

I hate them because Nicky Wire with his 2.2 degree and who boasts about spening all his grant while at uni on gambling talks about the importance of education, as if he put his to good use. I REALLY hate Wire, mainly because he's dumb but I hate their trendy ultra left wing leanings, when they were once MET Bar hangers on and seen around town with Oasis.

I just hate them really. I wish they would go away.

I haven't ever seen them, I have a long sordid history of buying tickets to events they were appearing at and then having them cancel their appearances, probably just because Nicky Wire knows I want to ask him why he's such a big jerk and he's too scared to face the heat of such pointed questioning. I would love to see the pictures! GATS has the best liner, the Japanese version? Those pictures are tres rowr.

Alex, that album drives me insane for some reason. I have never been able to actively articulate it, but I've also never been able to actively articulate why The Holy Bible is my favorite. I end up sounding like I'm going thru some kind of rockist überfit trying to explain it. I really, really like "If You Tolerate This..." especially the middle bit going back into the chorus, that's really got a pretty sound ("And on the streets tonight/An old man prays..." that part), but I can't for the life of me remember anything else about the album besides it irritating the piss out of me.

Know Your Enemy isn't as good as I said it was when it came out.

There is not enough love for Generation Terrorists going on, though.

"everything must go" is the one, though. moves me more than the "holy bible". consistently great tunes from start to finish.

"the holy bible" is their only other 'very good' record. richey's skill with words is not great, to be honest, there's some pretty juvenile shit on there. but regardless of the crap words, the mood is really gripping, probably because of what happened to richey later.

the first two recs have some really good singles on them, but some fucking tuneless rubbish, too."motown junk" should have been included. "know your enemy" is easily their worst album, bradfield abandons any notion of, y'know, writing some great catchy tunes. i've seen them live a couple of times, and they were great.

Nicky Wire's like a cartoon character these days. The last interview I read with him he actually said something like "No Logo? That book is for retards! I read Engels, not that studenty shit!"

Richey, at the end of the day, said a lot of offensive crap and did a lot of offensive things (re: the Bangkok incident) and I'm not as happy as others to feel sorrow and say: "Oh poor guy was going mad, no wonder he was happy to rubbish animal rights and support vivisection". I mean, what if he had said something racist? Or attacked someone? Would we say the same thing then?

The guy was a dick, who killed himself - he wasn't the new Ian Curtis or Kurt Cobain, he was a spoilt middle class arsehole much like his friend Wire. I have no time for any members of the Manics. The only positive thing I'll say about them is that I find them easy to ignore as they've become more and more of a joke (even in the mainstream press) which means they don't annoy me half as much as Coldplay.

...which makes him exactly like Ian Curtis and Kurt Cobain, doesn't it?

esoj OTM, what are you talking about, Calum? I find it entertaining that you of all people are latching onto a glib soundbite about dogs dying for hairspray and using it to base your entire opinion of a person.

I meant that he wasn't the new Kurt Cobain or Ian Curtis because, quite simply, he didn't have the talent that these guys had for making us emphasise with them. These two guys were real talents in my book, and a great loss. Losing Richey was maybe the same as saying goodbye to Michael Hutchence from INXS - not such a huge loss then.

anyway, a few trax aside "Know Your Enemy" is great and their fuck-you prole-punk-springsteenism is a great mess of fun contradiction.

the best thing about the cuba concert was the interviews afterwards where meanwhile oasis was playing for blair and they had great fun pissing on new-labour.

also i haven't bought holy bible ever but this thread makes me want to.

(PS I'm being serious)

Calum, you're an asshole.

(or not even burn it -- i haf just purchased an 80GB hard drive for my nefarious musical acquisitions!)

No, I'm not insensitive, I just don't suffer fucking cocks that support vivisection (which the Manics still do I should add). Seems to me you're the insensitive one, but then ignorance is fine for you isn't it Ally? Poor old middle class Richie who sympathised with 'Facism', exploited hookers in Bangkok (have you read into Thailand's prostitute trade? Poor girls from villages sucking dicks in bars and being infected with fuck knows what for tourist money and a chance to get out of the city) and supported 500 dead animals every fucking day.

Yes, Ally, I'm insensitive. Grow up you and wake up to the world around you you silly fucking arsehead.

There are about 8 million fair negative comments one could make about Richey Edwards. He was a self-centered fuckwad--if he wasn't, he wouldn't have offed himself, leaving his family to suffer the way they have, eh? My "asshole" comment towards Calum was directed towards the "no big loss" comment. How can you cry about animals in one sentence and pretty callously dismiss the entire lives of people in another?

I actually think they should've gone in a folky direction, a la the "Design For Life" b-sides.

For the record, Nicky Wire refused to comment on the destruction of the World Trade Centre, saying he thought it was inappropriate for someone who just in a rock band to comment on genuinely serious world events. Is this just a big cop out, given that he usually can't keep his mouth shut about similar topics?

that seems pretty out of character, alright. bafflingly so.

And after all those ridiculously priapic threads started by Calum, is he really in a position to be so righteous?

I still think my point stands that being righteous about animal rights and then in the next line being blase about the deaths of humans is a bit out of line.

For the record, Nicky Wire refused to comment on the destruction of the World Trade Centre, saying he thought it was inappropriate for someone who just in a rock band to comment on genuinely serious world events.

Yeah, I remember being completely confused by this when I read it. I totally agree with him--but it is so completely out of style for him that it becomes baffling and semi-offensive because of lack of comment. He's got bloody piles to say about every other thing that happens ever in the world, from Cuba to what someone's doing down at the market that really irritated him because, christ, all he wanted to do was go buy some drinks and all they had was Coca-Cola and fuck it, what's the point? So what's the deal here?

Quite honestly, I don't care because, really, I have no interest in finding out what he has to say about anything. I wish Sean and James would speak more often, they seem vaguely more reasonable and normal than Nicky (and certain far much more normal and reasonable than Richey was).

Everyone who hasn't heard "Yes" should download it immediately, I'll email an MP3 to people if they want. That's the best Manics song.

They'll be redeemed when Nicky Wire starts a campaign against animal experimentation, but until that day comes he's lower than shit in my book.

And the Castro thing is still the most stupid thing by any rock band ever.

I've pointed out why liking the Manics equates you to being someone who obviously does not take into account any moral view when opening your pockets to an artist, but no doubt you brush your teeth with Colgate and fly Air France (providing you've visited other countries in your time... surely someone posing to be as clever as you has taken in other cultures?). My point is made - Manics = evil for sympathising with the vivisection trade.

A life?

If you're going to insist on using such tortuously contrived sentence constructions, it might also be a good idea to master some of the finer point os punctuation before presuming to challenge anyone else to a discussion of "linguistics".

Welsh actually < /pedantry>

Definitely classic. They were the first band I really truly loved. I travelled all over Britain to see them, pre- and post-Richey. The one thing that spoiled them for me was their fans(by and large), you know what I mean, the I-feel-Richey's-pain brigade. Like you couldn't like them unless you could really "understand" them. Unless you were 4-real enough. That was a bit shit, but I can't hold their fans against them.

I like that they've grown up at the same sort of rate that I have.

The Manics were interesting to me as a window into British/Welsh culture during the mid/late 90s. Living in the middle of America as I was then, I stepped into the middle of the fray over Richey's disappearance only after EMG was released, so that's the band's starting point for me (in fact, I didn't even know about the 4REAL incident until about three years ago). So when the odd issue of Melody Maker or NME or Vox or Q would make its way to Kansas (which was a little more often that I'm sure my coastal friends are thinking right now), I'd pick it up, wonder "who's this band?" and eventually pick up EMG, and later TIMT.

And I think they're interesting albums in their own right, but I'm also grateful, I suppose, for the research they've made me do. I vaguely remember hearing about Kevin Carter before "Kevin Carter," but the song spurred me to check it out. I never understood the "libraries gave us power" line in "A Design for Life" fully until I heard about the miner's library in Wales. And while I remember the Hillsborough deaths, I didn't understand the class issues behind it until (gasp!) "SYMM," which I think is a great song for acknowledging its own limitations.

So, absent of the hype machine of Britian (I found out that "Know Your Enemy" was out when I found it in a used bin), I'd have to say classic. Or, as Mos Def would say, quasi-classic.

Oh, and total classic for that screensaver that scrolled all the revolutionary sayings. I loved coming back from a sales meeting to find Mao on my screen.

Second - since when does one not take into account the opinions or actions of mucisians when buying their products? Would many ILMers now purchase Gary Glitter CDs? Considering how interlinked the Manics opinions are with their songs I find it strange that anyone could possibly listen to their crap with anything approaching a straight face. They have made a mockery of eveything they ever pretended to stand for. They're "socialists" but signed to Sony, Sean admits to being materialistic and has two huge houses, James goes to the Met Bar, the whole "crappergate" thing which enraged (rightly) Billy Bragg, the arena tours... hardly "socialist" is it? A career built on quoting radical philosophers and authors (without pause to think about what they might actually be saying, of course, but if it's cool the Manics wear it) and then Nicky Wire writing a song called "Freedom of Speech won't Feed my Children" and going out to Cuba to associate himself with Castro (a dictator by any other name). The whole pro-feminism thing (c.f. "Little Baby Nothing" which uses Traci Lords without pausing to think about the fact she was the exploiter and not the exploited) and yet Nicky and Richey were fucking groupies, Richey paying a hooker in Bangkok for a hand job etc... and the vivisection thing is very important. Seeing as vivisection is a capitalist industry built on people preferring to give themselves fat pay cheques instead of funding the available alternatives to animal models (capitalism by any other name) their support of it is ignorance at an all time high. And they wrote "Small Black Flowers that Grow in the Sky" without, obviously, thinking about their own views. But, hey, it sells to people needing an outlet for some middle class, bullshit depression - the Manics all over.

Dud as dud can be, I hope Nicky Wire chokes on his own spit one day.

Calum, your allegation upthread that "talented" people's lives are worth more than the lives of the less talented makes your sanctimonious bullshit about animal rights and the Manics' failure to live up to their socialistic ideals (just like, uh, every other socialist ever?) more irritating with every new post.

And please do not refer to my FACTUAL animal rights comments as "bullshit". If you wish, I'd be happy to provide links to downloadable undercover footage from vivisection labs, after viewing which (unless you already have, in which case you can tell me a bit about Michelle Rokke, for instance) you can make an informed opinion on whether or not such scum deserve a good hard kick in the heads.

Cheers me dear.

These two guys [Cobain and Curtis] were real talents in my book, and a great loss. Losing Richey was maybe the same as saying goodbye to Michael Hutchence from INXS - not such a huge loss then.

your inability to grasp the contradiction between your callous, shitty attitude toward human beings as expressed here and your obnoxiously strident animal rights stance is telling.

I have the utmost respect towards human rights - and I'd ask you to remember that Richey Edwards associated with Facism, exploited peasant prostitution on the streets of Bangkok, and was pro-death penalty, whilst Nicky Wire wished HIV on Michael Stipe and associated with Fidel Castro whose human rights abuses are legendary. I'd like to know how you can defend such fuckwitts whilst attacking me for no discernable reason. Is it, pray tell, because you are an ill-informed asshole who, by giving money to the Manics, is supporting a band that has views which are utterly repulsive by any standard?

calum you should be a priest, you know.

anyone with the slightest familiarity with the Manics knows that they contradicted themselves every 15 minutes. that's why they used to be interesting. if Richey Edwards supported fascism, why was he upset enough by Holocaust revisionism to write two songs about it? holding a comment he made when he was dangerously ill against him to the point where you claim that his death was "no big loss" is creepy and pathetic.

Robin's post in this thread nails it. i miss him.

Sure, Justyn, throw about words such as "creepy and pathetic" (which, in the terms you are using them, are totally nonsensical to every comment I've made - most of which show me as a humanitirian, which i am, and someone who holds moral views shared by many well read, intelligent people the world over... of which you are not one) without thinking. But, in actual fact, you sir are a sad, laughable individual who really needs to pick up a book some day and see the world outside of your bedroom a bit more clearly. As for Julio - I don't really sympathise, but I will say I can see why you've not had a relationship yet at the age of twentywhatever.

also maybe YOU ought to pick up a book to see how sentences are made: as is your writing reminds me of Greil Marcus's description of Albert Goldman: "the addled syntax of someone who dictates rather than writes."

4 EVAH!!!!

Your repeated assertions that you like sex a whole lot suggest that you're not getting any, best of luck to you

Name one.

The Village Voice, Spin, the NME, Careless Talk Costs Lives, Magnet, various New Times affiliates, etc. etc. - really pretty much any music mag you might name with the possible exception of Mixmag is represented on ilx0r.

I mean, Calum, it seemed for a second that your having come back to the forum on this thread might be an attempt to turn over a new leaf...that you'd been away, you wanted to show (as you sometimes assert and as may well be true) that you're genuinely a nice guy with some interesting opinions, etc...but it didn't take you two posts to drop into your character-assassin mode, which is just dreadfully dull! and misinformed besides! If this Manics fellow's comments/actions are so unforgiveable, then what of you, who has said far more hateful things to human beings who were just hanging around trying to have a conversation when you barged in?

at least 2 mixmag writers are on ilx!

I was not trying to be offensive hear but the middle class way of faux-depression kinda offends me - in my line of work I deal with people from backgrounds that HAVE a reason to be depressed, none of this "I earn £50,000 a year and oh woe is me" shit. I'm sorry, but yes it offends me, and a lot of other people too (c.f. so many of Pulp's classic lyrics). Don't moan at me for having an opinion.

(As for the Manics... eh, they're not too bad. Still listen to their records on occasion. And not getting too het up about the pronouncements of a group who made their name on shooting off at the mouth is in no way comparable to condoning any set of actions, in my opinion.)

*sits back, waits for Calum's head to explode*

Have fun, John!

Yeah, people are on death row. They're gonna die anyway, so for fun why don't we got into their cell each day and stomp on their heads for a while for a laugh?

I presume, Ally, you're writing is that of someone unaware of what really goes on in vivisection labs, or the near extinction of wild primates not helped by the importation for vivisection, or the possibility that new human diseases could be spread through xenotransplantation. And have you ANY idea of the theories relating the importation of primates for research to the influx of HIV in the West? Are you REALLY this dumb?

I have a theory you've got to be living in a big American city to this idiotic, but I hope you can prove me long. You have learned everything you know about the world from "Friends" haven't you?

Do you have a passport or a library card Ally? Cos a comment such as "they're bred for it - let them die" is the mumblings of a very stupid person indeed.

I bet Calum, however, would find huntingforbambi.com quite funny...

Seriously, I'm still reading this forum regularly. I can't find much to disagree with in my earlier MSP comments - the band still embarrass me and bore me in equal measure. I don't actually hate "Elvis Impersonator, Blackpool Pier" as much as I made out, but I only have a soft spot for it because I have a soft spot for doomed, maniacally single-minded vaingloriousness. Their later work doesn't even have that amusing quality to it.

By the way, friends and family of mine have had their lives saved or changed by products tested on animals where there was no known alternative than using animals. A good friend of my mother's works for Covance - they don't hurt anyone or anything UNNECESSARILY, and yet idiot protesters put bombs under their cars, throw bricks at them over the wall...how does this help, exactly? It's like the pro-lifers blowing up abortion clinics, how fucked up is their perspective? I wouldn't have an abortion myself, but I still think that's more sick and wrong than abortions in themselves, just as I think testing a drug on a monkey with legitimate reason to save an AIDS sufferer's life is better than trying to mash in the head of a scientist.

jess hulksmash, why scared?

After that I ignored them for ages, hmphing when they didn't split up, not particularly giving a shit when Richey died, not listening to anything except the Chemical Brother's mix of Tristessa. Then I bought
Everything Must Go
because "Design for Life" was lovely. Far too much of that album sounded like an even AORer Ride with Springsteeny vocals. I bought the next one, again because the leading single was brilliant, listened to it twice and dropped it. SO dud, basically.

As for the animal shit - I think animal cruelty sux.

anyway:

manics to world: if i can shoot rabbits why can't i shoot fascists?
calum to manics: you shoot rabbits!!!!??

That's my absolute favorite line in If You Tolerate This... Sterling. It's so absurd. Actually taht whole song is great for being so absurdly grandiose in its message. I love how whatever Nicky Wire sees like somewhere, he gets all obsessed with and has to write a song about it. "Oh, Goya is wonderful! I'm going to write a stupid AOR song to accompany his work!!"

That sums them up, really, doesn't it.

"it's always wrong to experiment on animals, it doesn't matter if it's a new lipstick or a drug that could prevent thousands of people from a horrible death, it's all equally wrong"

Animal wrongs: http://www.shac.net/SCIENCE/customer_drugs.html

As it so happens, YES it is all "horribly wrong" but I'd advise you pick up "Slaughter of the Innocents" or any number of books which can advise you as to why animal experimentation is a falsity. Animal models are not the same as human models and are used for financial reasons by companies who need the easiest, and quickest, seal of apporval on their product. Due to the difference between human and animal models this is incredibly dangerous - witness the following:

http://www.peta.org/mc/facts/fsae11.html

Indeed, we should be thankful that intelligent, well read scientists such as Dr Greek (http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2001/8/6/features/06test) have pointed out the dangers of relying in animal models and that many charities are now following suit. For instance, monkeys cannot get HIV, yet monkeys are locked, alone, in a cage and injected with a man-made primate HIV which is widely seen as bearing little relation to the human variety of the disease (c.f. "The Monkey Wars" by Deborah Blum). Yet these animals suffer horrible deaths, clogged up alone in a cage, captured from the wild and taken to a cold, stone laboratory. WHY? So some fuckwitted sadists with degrees who have little in the way of morality or intelligence can find a cost effective way of somehow showing the world they can cure a monkey of monkey HIV... which will do no good to humans (of course) anyway. And cancer research is fucking bogus on animals - scientists CREATE a cancer, and as any half intelligent scientist working in the field will tell you, not only is creating a cancer in a young animal incredibly cruel but also no use at all. Why do you think animal models have never found a cure for cancer? Cancer is spontaneous and cannot just be "created" by man in an animal model (which is totally different).

I would also urge fellow ILMers who are not well read on the subject to check out the Uncaged site at:

http://www.uncaged.co.uk/vivisect.htm

As for the dick head who commented on Covance (I WILL be pointing the fine people from www.shac.net to this message board, I'm sure they will be in touch with you for your details)... well I have the four year undercover research into the Covance lab and it is fucking shocking! As SHAC themselves say:

Due to Covance taking legal action against our internet service provider and threatening to sue them, all documents, study reports, client lists and customer numbers and any other information obtained during SHAC’s undercover investigation at Covance have temporarily been removed.
Covance are spending a fortune in legal fees desperately trying to hush up our undercover work at their Harrogate laboratory. Ask yourselves why. What have they got to hide? Why are their customers so deperate for information on their companies’ involvement with Covance to be taken off our website?

Covance will not be able to halt the distribution of this material. It was displayed on our website for 5 days during which time it was downloaded by animal rights groups worldwide who will no doubt make it available to people visiting their websites.

This matter is currently under legal consideration and will be resolved shortly.
For more information on this matter, please feel free to telephone us on 0845 458 0630 and email us at info@shac.net.

I'd advise the curious to drop them an email and maybe find out exactly what Covance do to beagle puppies and wild caught primates... a brick being thrown through the worker's windows hardly seems fair retrobution in my opinion, but of course I'd rather things were worked out around a table, not that the vivisection industry wants anything to do with this.

Here's the figures as they stand right now:

3,342 primates were experimented upon, up 8%.
5,554 dogs were vivisected, up 17%. (6)
71,261 animals killed in acute lethal toxicity (poisoning) tests - one of the most extremely cruel types of procedure - an increase of 27%. (7)
2,353,507 experiments (90% of total) involved either no anaesthetic (59% of total) or anaesthetic during just part of the experiment. (8)
135,839 animals were subjected to poisoning tests for pollutants, agrochemicals, industrial chemicals, household products, food additives and other food stuffs. (9)
246,844 animals bred with "harmful genetic defects" were experimented upon. (10)
25,043 animals suffered injections into the brain.
31,041 more animals were subjected to interference with their brains.
10,282 animals were inflicted with psychological stress.
7,225 animals endured radiation experiments.
44,019 animals were forced to inhale substances.
363 animals were subjected to "thermal injury" - burns in plain language.
6,496 animals were directly physically injured: "Physical trauma". (11)

And lastly, the infamous diaries of despair:

http://www.xenodiaries.org/briefing.htm#three

And Michelle Rokke's diary (please don't read this on a full stomach, you WILL be ill - unless you're a self centred, heartless, evil, sicko like Ally).

http://vivisection-absurd.org.uk/rokke.html

AGAIN, Ally I ask you:

*Are you intelligent?
*Do you read about anything you pretend to have an informed opinion about (bred for vivisection indeed)
*Are you living in a large American city?
*Do you have a decent level of education?
*Have you worked with anyone working class on a professional basis and had to try and help them escape real depression, thus showing how fucking bogus the depression of arseholes such as Richey is?
*Have you got a passport?
*Have you been to a country outside of your little city?
*Do you spend any time in a library educating yourself about anything?

*Are you intelligent?

Well, I can tell when people are fucking with me, unlike some of us.

*Do you read about anything you pretend to have an informed opinion about (bred for vivisection indeed)

I only read Archie comics, actually.

*Are you living in a large American city?

I'm in NYC.

*Do you have a decent level of education?

I'm a junior at Columbia.

*Have you worked with anyone working class on a professional basis and had to try and help them escape real depression, thus showing how fucking bogus the depression of arseholes such as Richey is?

I grew up on welfare and food stamps and tried to kill myself once actually! Thanks for bringing that all back up! How about you? I smell trustafarian bullshit in your background actually. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just that it seems a bit wanky to call Richey Edwards on it. Anyway, do you actually have a grasp of human disorders or are you only concerned with the welfare of animals? Rich people can be just as insane as poor people, that's the great thing about genetics!

*Have you got a passport?

Yeah, the picture is terrible!

*Have you been to a country outside of your little city?

Yeah, but they're all terrible.

*Do you spend any time in a library educating yourself about anything?

Not if I can avoid it!

"Revol"
"Yes"
"Stay Beautiful"
"P.C.P.")

If you actually look at the argument in depth and do your homework like good children, you'll maybe begin to realize that human liberation very much depends upon animal liberation and this starts with vivisection. But maybe this is beyond you?

Anyway, it's quite clear to me that Calum is maybe onto a losing argument here, not because he's wrong but simply because the level of intellect displayed within these postings is so low that anything beyond the reign of "Ritchie is God!" really doesn't sink in........ jeez, the guy slashed '4real' into his arm in my home town and most people here think the guy was a total fucking arse.

The Manics are nothing more than a bunch of sad tossers rapidly approaching middle age , while still playing at teen angst (and using a very poor approach to world politics). Get over it. Thank you, fuck you and good night.

Who wants a sausage roll? Calum?

Arguing to mirrors will do that to you.

dave q's last post renders all Greek philosophy moot

Hmmmm. Could this not also be expressed as "nerdy-type who contributes to internet message boards in having-access-to-more-than-one-computer shockah!"?

HONOUR THE BUNNY-WUNNIES!

:-(

And please do check the URLs so you can see that Matt is in NORWICH and I am, erm, slighty further North - and who knows where Spoonered is.

You have my URL, and have done for months, it has never changed.

I wish all these moron Richey fans would take the advice of the guy they admire so dearly and fucking throw themselves off a bridge instead of trying to defend his asshole, pig-thick comments. Ironic how Nicky wished AIDS on Michael Stipe, and Stipe is the guy out there lending his face to the anti-vivisection movement and other good causes, whilst the best Wire can do is spend some social time with a known dictator and human rights abuser.

Mm.

Second - since when am I callous towards human suffering? It's you who wants to use animal models for medical research which equals the possibility of very severe human suffering! I've already said I'm against the death penalty and human rights abuse... unlike the arsehole band you are defending. I'd never wish HIV on anyone, nor would I ever associate with a dictator and torturer or would I write songs like "Archives of Pain" which defends capital punishment. Erm... sorry, you've failed to grasp anything I've said.

Typical, dumb, blind resident of a big MacDonalds loving city... go and put your little tick next to Bush on your election sheet and live in mindless, eternal BLINDNESS towards the world around you like a good girl and leave all this intelligent stuff to those of us who can be arsed eh? There you go, go find a stranger to fuck tonight or something...

Comedy gold.

(Irony - in case Ally doesn't get it).

Erm... calling two porky birds porky = callous towards human suffering? Surely I'm not alone in seeing the innate hypocrisy in this comment?

The thing is Calum that the people on this thread may or may not respect animals, I've no idea. Animals don't care what anyone is saying on an internet thread. But rather marvellously you do, and most of us dislike you and want to upset you. Hence the argument.

Gud to see this thread still going - hey Tico the Chico, your grammer is shit. Haha!

Yet more comedy gold!

It’s laughable that you’d point the finger at Calum, accuse him of being a religious nut, say he can’t care about ‘human beings’ because he cares about animal welfare….. rather than consider he could just be quite an ethical individual with thoughts of his own that don’t conform to your sad little definition of ‘normality’. What’s next…. come on, where are the accusations of political correctness because he’s pointed out that various people on this forum are also pretty fucking sexist?

It’s simple, you’re scared…. too afraid to admit you’re wrong, maybe confront your failings. You say you don’t care…... I say you’re full of shit, this debate is not simply about ‘animal cruelty’… it also has knock on effects, it effects human lives too (something you accused Calum of not caring about)… people on this forum included and you don’t care about that? Then why are you still here? Run that bath, make it nice and hot, get your favourite carving knife from the kitchen drawer and say goodbye…… come on children, follow the leader (Richey 4real) into cliché nihilism nirvana.

Can one of you give any sort of a reasoned argument against the facts you’ve been presented with by Calum? I doubt it. How many of you even looked at the links…. ?

You may possibly not be aware of this but just in case you aren't I shall try to make one brief explanation of the response that Calum is receiving on his thread.

Calum bombarded this board for months with irrelevant and puerile sexist crap, ignoring everyone's requests for him to stop, and making wild threats and accustions at everyone who tried to challenge his behaviour.

Yet the moment he wants to talk seriously about something we're all supposed to stop and forget about all that and pay attention to him?

Sorry my friends but life ain't like that.

Calum has behaved like a spoiled and petulant child and in so doing has set himself up to be ignored and reviled - and he's now reaping exactly what he sowed.

That's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

Xkiller.bunnies.of.the.apocalypseX

Ha-ha, Killing Joke, now that's funny.... no, it was me just taking the piss and sinking down to the level of the rest of this forum.

Really, if we were getting into quoting bands I think I'd be stretching a bit further than the shite that is Killing Joke.

Classic attention-seeking behaviour.

I'm killing an animal RIGHT NOW!!!

As for the animal welfare and indeed animal rights issues - the "X" fellow is correct... you are especially unread on the subject and you should all boycott the Manics on principle and let them know that playing a concert for VIVISECTION charity and STILL supporting such charities is unfogiveable ignorance. They WERE told by many of their own fans at the time NOT to play for a charity tests (so it wasn't like they weren't warned) but they just did not care. Then Richey pinches your cash by writing "Small Black Flowers that grow in the Sky" (about a caged animal!). The hypocrit. False and bullshit, the band deserves every bit of criticism allowed to them.

"Oi! Where's our pie! I hope it's filled with kittens!"

Xkiller.bunnies.of.the.apocalypseX

-- XinGaia'snameX (Xfucku2...), July 24th, 2003.

What's that? Lyrics from the new Killing Joke album?
-- Stewart Osborne (stewart.osborn...), July 24th, 2003. (later)

hahaha!!! thank you stewart. this has made my day.

I do worry that humanity can be so cruel, but then in Ally's case it's a mixture of that and BEING A BRAINDEAD CITY DWELLING PIG IRNORANT UNTRAVELLED TIT.

Nevermind, one day I'm sure we can educate her - maybe in her next life or something. Vote for Bush Ally! He's a good guy you know. He cares about you.

Now I remember why I'll never, in my lifetime, see the world even try and make a step forward. It takes some degree of intelligence and knowledge of our surroundings which assholes like Ally like to remind me not enough of us have.

Here's a wild idea Calum: if you really, genuinely want to change the world (as opposed to just whining about what's wrong with it like a spoiled attention-starved brat) how about stopping wasting your time sitting in front of a PC winding people up, getting up off your arse, going out into the real world and actually doing something about it?

Do you see?

Unfortunately Calum's been such a complete and utter dick in the past that no-one here has the slightest inclination to pay any attention whatosever to a single word that either he or anyone vaguely associated with him says any more. Particularly since the fact that he's now desperately seeking to assume the moral high-ground (when the actual position that he occupies on this Board is at the very bottom of an extremely deep moral pit which he's carefully dug for himself with his own past behaviour) is naturally the cause of much hilarity.

"That's for the best surely."

Frankly the cause of the Anti-vivisectionists etc. would be far better served on this forum by not being associated with an established and celebrated idiot like Calum.

a) anti-vivisection is is an important issue which sadly is rapidly becoming a cause for ridicule because of it's association with him, and;
b) unfortunately it doesn't matter whether we shout at him, laugh at him, or attempt to ignore him, it all just makes him scream louder and throw his toys out of pram even more forcefully.

So if a comedian or someone famous you just don't like lends themselves to a good cause we should ignore the cause?

Of course we (by which in this instance I mean human beings ) shouldn't Spoonered but I think even the most cursory grasp of human nature should inform you that in practice we almost invariably do .

Keep banging your head against a brick wall like Calum keeps doing or be mature enough to accept human nature for what it is, learn to live with it and move on to things that are not only far more important but which you might actually be able to do something about?

"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference"

But feel free to get yr own mileage out of this thread and out of Calum's constant nastiness towards fellow human beings (both famous and fellow posters on this board).

YOU'RE SPOILING THE FUNNY

(this is ILX, surely *someone* appreciates the buffy ref.)

Sterling, no one understands your references! You must surely understand this by now.

Dan, the more I explain the more it is funny, DO YOU SEE?

Well, I'm Vegan - Does that mean that I'm better than you and some how win? Hooray!? I think you're all a bunch of lame fucks.... let's fucking go!!

Oh, and Ally... how much does a NY Hooker make these days? No precise answer, y'know just on average per week?

Have a nice weekend children....

Or tell me a bit about George Orwell or something - ANYTHING to show me you have a brain.

You go girl!

P.S. for the LAST time (and I've stated this until I'm blue in the face) although Ally wished death on me over on ILE I have actually stated over and over that I find the Manics views towards human rights atrocious (remember, Richey paid a hooker in Bangkok - women forced into the sex trade through poverty)... it is you who wishes death on strangers on the net. You STUPID dumb moose. Can people be this dumb? Ally proves it.

1) Nazis
2) Vivisection
3) George Orwell
4) Death
5) Human rights
6) Sex Trade in Asia
7) Moose

CALUM IS ACTUALLY NICKY WIRE, PEOPLE! Good god, if your next post is a lengthy dissection of why Cezanne's Bathers series shows the inner workings of the human mind as refuge from cold environment, I will totally win a bet.

Calum's contempt for animals exposed!

Some pictures for you Ally. This is what your Manics support.

OK now i'm really confused.

These are some of the more common experiments done on monkeys in labs.

Not sure the pics I'm trying to post are working but you should visit this site;

http://vivisection-absurd.org.uk/images19.html

And if possible watch the undercover documentary it refers too. It was in my uni library and changed my day and probably my life. I couldn't believe this shit was happening and vowed never to tolerate anyone who defends it.

Kind of like how I feel about Emma Bunton.

And besides, if you tolerate Emma your--oof! *is taken down by a jab from Ally in the solar plexus*

If no-one else finds "ill thought out mind" from upthread worthy of comment, well, then, by God, the task falls to me. However I feel that its effects are best experienced if it is treated as a koan. "Ill thought out mind." The [ill thought out] mind boggles.

Sounds like a confession of some sort to me?

The thickest person ever and a prostitute. Hmm, well I've nothing against prostitutes to be honest... (and yes I mean as individuals, no I'm not defending the exploitation of the 'sex' industry). Nor do I really have anything against people like Ally who want to 'fuck around'... it's your body, your choice right? As long as you're being careful and not hurting anyone else, there's not really a problem. I do however find it kinda' sad that you'd post this on the net and I can't say that I ever met anyone who was truely happy fucking around. But that's a different debate.

However, I do have a problem with thick people... they really annoy me, 'DO YOU SEE?' The sheer ignorance displayed on this board is amazing, okay Calum may have got right up your nose(s) and maybe that was his intention... right or wrong, he still has an awful lot of very valid points which most people here are choosing to ignore simply because it suits them to switch off rather than think about what's being said to them.

Are you basically saying that because 'Calum behaved badly' you'll ignore what he's saying, even though his argument is very well founded and researched? There's little in the way of agreement here, instead counterattacks and predicatble insults are thrown and the whole thing goes round in circles.

Nobody seems to be saying "I agree with what you're saying, but Calum I think you're a wanker!"... but rather "I don't care!" or "Dribble, bunnies taste good." It's kinda' childish and just makes people look totally fucking ignorant.... are you all actually that willing to portray yourselves as uncaring, ill informed and quite frankly stupid?

you're giving calum the benefit of the doubt more than anyone else here - his motivation for annoying people was clearly boredom and a desire to try and 'shock' or provoke - nothing more. and who is to say he isn't wrong? i dont condone testing on animals but given my general ignorance regarding the specifics of that field i am not going to go and condemn it either. its not as if the vivisectionists go home every day and just laugh about how evil they are. well, maybe some do, but maybe others believe what they're doing is right in the long run and its the protesters who are misguided. its one big grey area where concepts like right and wrong are prone to manipulation and re-appropriation. dave q touched on this with his sole comment way upthread i think.

to re-iterate calum is unlikely to get much sympathy and support for any views he professes on this board now - regardless of how just or noble or interesting the subject matter. childish? maybe, but he started it! ;) ignorant and stupid? you'll find there are all kinds of debates and constructive arguments taking place elsewhere on this board (usually far from the threads calum bothers to post on) from the very same people on this thread and others that prove they are far from ignorant and stupid in general.

But this is indeed a very serious subject, and not the first time I've tried to discuss something serious on ILM. I would say that vivisectionists are indeed evil and considering that undercover footage was released in 1985 showing a doctor and his helpers in a lab mimicking and laughing at brain damaged primates... and the documentary "A Dog's Life" in 1997, as well as the recent undercover expose of xenotransplantation, seems to show that vivisectors are miles away from the rest of us when it comes to showing simple emotions like compassion.

As for the sleeping around comments that Matt (XthingyX) made... I don't think you can be happy sleeping around either. I'm pretty romantic when it comes to that.

One of the things you realise as you get older — I think this is also what Stewart is alluding to, though I don't want to put words in his mouth — is that some (often basically very conventional) people gravitate towards seemingly radical political stances precisely because they're underpopulated: it's an arena where they can act as top dog, and generally boss colleagues around and guilt-trip them about their moral unworthiness and enjoy feeling superior. Where this gets particularly ugly is where you suddenly realise that SOME of people, far from (say) fighting to right the wrong they make such a noise about, are in their heart of hearts EXPLOITING this wrong because it gives them a get-out-of-jail-free justification for behaving so jerkily. They say they want an end to ________, but then conduct their campaigns exactly to alienate waverers, potential supporters, newcomers generally, with the result that ________ carries on, and so does the mini-reign of their total jerkiness.

What you have to ask yourself is, does the cause matter more to you than your feelings about how you're perceived? If it's genuinely the former, then an ability to humble and to apologise sometimes and to actually respect and build bridges towards those who don't yet agree with you is essential. Hard work maybe, but essential. If in the end it's all about your ego, then in the end you will end up betraying the cause, either by undermining it by yr behaviour or by switching sides.

I have no interest in a discussion with Calum about this subject bcz actually I think it's a serious and difficult issue, and I think his posturing and general look-at-me wankiness are always just a step away, the only debating tactic he actually knows. To be blunt, I think he instinctively picked this political topic bcz it allows him to bully ppl very effectively, something he enjoys a lot too much, and he'll have to do a lot of work to convince me (and many other contributors to this board) otherwise.

When he proves he's learnt to take responsiblity for the consequences of his own past behaviour — the consequences include the general attitude towards him manifested here — and to cut out his adolescent bully-moves, and demonstrate that his political poisition ISN'T purely a pretext for him to be an overbearing prick, then I think we'd see a very different kind of debate. One actually worth having. (Somehow I doubt it will ever be on a Manics thread, but there you go.)

A couple of times he has posted something where he allowed himself to seem a bit vulnerable, where he wasn't simply braying about his intrinsic moral and intellectual superiority to everyone else on the planet, and these moments made me like him a bit more. I don't know why, but I am inclined to believe his claim that he's more charming in real life. I don't understand his campaign to present himself as totally charmless to the whole of ILX: it seems be very self-defeating, especially now, when he wants to discuss something that matters to him.

Then again, there are a lot of things I strongly believe in. I'm opposed to the death penalty, foreign sanctions, protested against the Iraq war... the world is fucked up and sawing open the heads of wild caught primates and then giving them electric shocks straight to the brain is but part of a very large problem.

I do, incidently, take full responsibility for my posts. And my friends found the amusing and so did I - which doesn't excuse why hundreds of posts would follow a simple "wind up" topic such as "Alison Moyet's bum must be a bit sweaty on a hot day eh?"

I mean, if you guys can't see that this is simply someone have a bit of a laugh I do worry, and as I've explained I find the graphic posts by ILMers about their personal sex lifes far more dubious than any joke thread I can come up with.

fine, you worry. just understand that many people here will worry about you as well, except they probably don't care that much.

and the fact that anyone ever decides to just try and negatively 'wind people up' that they don't know is actually yet another reason the world is like it is. there are better ways to entertain yourself and others.

And this is a serious topic, and posting some joke threads most certainly does not forfeit my right to be concerned about serious issues. Where is that written? In some sort of fucked up mental Bible you've just invented in your head?

they were mean spirited and had nothing to do with content music wise. and the fact that you don't post much on other ppls threads just fits into that.

"If you make a superhuman effort — over many months — behave towards a group of people in a way they consider stupid, rude, thoughtless, cruel and lame, WHEN YOU ARE PERFECTLY WELL AWARE THIS IS WHAT THEY THINK, you are in no position to complain when they laugh and jeer at you in return WHATEVER YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY. Take responsiblity for the consequences of your behaviour to others: treat them as you have no problem yourself being treated. You intensely dislike being wound up about your beliefs, or having them doubted or sneered at — so why not extend the same respect to others?"

Calum, if this is genuinely not part of the "Bible that you have just made up in your head" then you will continue not to be taken seriously: in other words, you will have forfeited the right to lecture people etc etc. You can go on lecturing people, but they will simply stop listening. If you are serious about yr cause, then this is actually a principle that matters: if you treat your potential audience with total sneering contempt, not just momentarily — we all have lapses — but on a consistent and sustained basis over a very long time, then you are sabotaging your own side.

Which would you prefer to achieve here? Getting us all to admit that we are rubbish for failing to see how marvellously light-hearted and clever your many many prank threads have been, or persuading a few more people to think hard about vivisection, to change their minds, even their behaviour?

Because it seems to me that you are quite prepared to sacrifice the latter to ensure the former: in other words, to ruin your ethical campaign to shore up your ego. Like I said, I don't really understand this. You may think we are all dreadful fogeys for not finding you a funny guy: OK, fine — you're dealing with an audience of fogeys. So IF YOUR MESSAGE MATTERS AT ALL TO YOU, then it to your audience. Your strategy seems to be: insult the audience, then get upset when they get annoyed. This is not serious politics, in any shape or form.

I am trying very hard to discuss this with you seriously: to take you seriously, in other words, and to ignore all your bullshit grandstanding and distortion. It would be nice if you did the courtesy of actually reading what I've posted, and not just replying to selectively misread easy-target versions. If you can't be bothered, so be it.

*I have, from time to time, commented on other people's threads and posted serious discussion threads about music (do a search and you'll find many of them). I have also posted what I consider to be "funny" threads. You obviously did not find them amusing - many of the ILMers that contributed to them did with comments like "best thread ever", "funniest thing written on ILM" etc etc. Therefore, because my humour did not sit well with you - this does not give you the right to assume that my character does not have ethical and moral points to it as well. Otherwise, by your reckoning, a guy like Chris Morris would be the most evil man alive.

*I am very serious about this topic. I have not posted sludge on this thread for this very reason, but instead attempted to enter into a reasonable discussion about it and draw people's attention to the innate hypocrisy of the Manics (a band I once followed as well I should add, much regrettably) and why it is not wise to support a band of such moral disrispute.

I hope that this line of talk can continue on this thread at least, but I find it strange that you like "being funny/ unfunny" with "having no morals".

Only if you count your phoney identities. Perhaps you do think they are real, though.

I'm not continuing this, I've said my piece here. I've made a repeated point about why your strategy to seize the moral high ground keeps misfiring and you seem determined to keep on finding new (well, old) ways of missing it.

Precisely Mark; it doesn't matter whether the tactic that's being used is bombarding the board with puerile sexist "humour"; making unpleasant aspersions about and launching vitriolic attacks on other posters; or this latest game of extravagant DRAMA-QUEEN weeping and wailing histrionics about the plight of animals that are used for experiments; or any combination of the above; it's transparently clear that the psychological sub-text is at all times "LOOK AT ME, EVERYONE, PAY ATTENTION TO ME!"

I remember the Manics getting some flak for playing a gig in aid of Cancer Research. A dumb thing to do, in my opinion, but there are better reasons for hating them. I also remember that Bernard Butler joined them at the gig. The Bernard Butler who happens to be one of Calum's faves.

controversial!

http://www.geocities.com/wintermute_v031/somi1.txt

http://www.geocities.com/wintermute_v031/somi2.txt

http://www.geocities.com/wintermute_v031/somi3.txt

http://www.geocities.com/wintermute_v031/somi4.txt

http://www.geocities.com/wintermute_v031/somi5.txt

No it does not excuse the very stupid decision. As Matt stated, how many of you know about the steps forward made by charities that take the more expensive route of bypassing animal experimentation for other, more effective, means like Lord Dowling's research fund? My father died of cancer, so I think I'm a pretty good position to state that I do not believe millions upon millions of dead monkeys, killed in a vile and disgusting manner, is excusable... and that's before you take into account the fact that animal experimentation has not done anything to find a cure for cancer anyway. Human cancer is VERY different from a cancer which is humanly engineered in a lab to take control of an animal.

Bernard's response may have been emotional, considering that Mr Butler is a vegetarian and very vocal about being such, I would find it hard to believe he'd be pro-vivisection or was well-read enough on the topic to know about the charity behind the gig.

The Manics, however, were warned - well in advance - by their own fans about this gig (many of whom deserted them) and came out with very loud and obnoxious statements about not giving a shit. Even recently Sean Moore mentioned that the current protest against HLS is misguided as the protesters have probably been saved by animal experimentation at some time or another and the Manics STILL to this day give donations to charities such as The Spastics Association which are notorious for their use of animal experiments.

So... I'd say they are very pro-vivisection the sick fucks.

And I reserve the right to take the moral high ground to a dumb fuck like Ally who, in the time of all these posts, can only say that this debate is about "monkeys being more important than humans".

Jesus, she's so dim it really makes you despair. Yeah Ally, and remember - they're "bred for vivisection" too aren't they? If Ally ever leaves her back yard to experience someone else's culture I only hope she's intelligent enough to enter into ill-informed debates such as this without at least reading a little about the subject, because people this stupid are a fucking plague.

Grow up Ally, get a brain and make us all happy.

No it does not excuse the very stupid decision. As Matt stated, how many of you know about the steps forward made by charities that take the more expensive route of bypassing animal experimentation for other, more effective, means like Lord Dowling's research fund? My father died of cancer, so I think I'm a pretty good position to state that I do not believe millions upon millions of dead monkeys, killed in a vile and disgusting manner, is excusable... and that's before you take into account the fact that animal experimentation has not done anything to find a cure for cancer anyway. Human cancer is VERY different from a cancer which is humanly engineered in a lab to take control of an animal.

Bernard's response may have been emotional, considering that Mr Butler is a vegetarian and very vocal about being such, I would find it hard to believe he'd be pro-vivisection or was well-read enough on the topic to know about the charity behind the gig.

The Manics, however, were warned - well in advance - by their own fans about this gig (many of whom deserted them) and came out with very loud and obnoxious statements about not giving a shit. Even recently Sean Moore mentioned that the current protest against HLS is misguided as the protesters have probably been saved by animal experimentation at some time or another and the Manics STILL to this day give donations to charities such as The Spastics Association which are notorious for their use of animal experiments.

So... I'd say they are very pro-vivisection the sick fucks.

And I reserve the right to take the moral high ground to a dumb fuck like Ally who, in the time of all these posts, can only say that this debate is about "monkeys being more important than humans".

Jesus, she's so dim it really makes you despair. Yeah Ally, and remember - they're "bred for vivisection" too aren't they? If Ally ever leaves her back yard to experience someone else's culture I only hope she's intelligent enough to enter into ill-informed debates such as this with at least reading a little about the subject, because people this stupid are a fucking plague.

Grow up Ally, get a brain and make us all happy.

Again, if your analysis of "Archives of Pain" is that it is condoning human torture and the death penalty, then I see no reason to have any sort of debate with you on my intellectual merits--clearly yours are a bit AWOL.

So...

lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of laughter @ Ally...

Dumbest postee on any message forum ever and unable to even know what the songs by the band she is defending are about.

HAHAHAHAHA.

"You gots to chill."

Your friends,
http://www.cheebadesign.com/dengamleskolen/epmd.jpg
Erick and Parrish, making dollars.

Simon Price, I also have it. If you read it a bit more thoroughly, you'll note that Richey contradicts said statement in yet another interview. Richey in being a dickhead contradictory liar SHOCKER. Try actually listening to the lyrics sometime, you moron--they're rather obviously from the point of view of an extreme rightist but also rather sarcastic ("All I preach is/Extinction"). If I tape a picture of Belinda Carslyle naked to the lyrics sheet, will you pay attention? I'm afraid I'm all out of Emma Bunton.

Actually, thinking about the implications of that a bit more, no I didn't.

the freakiest thing just happened - i refreshed the thread and two thirds of it was temporarily exposed as Matrix code - no bullshit! i think they are coming for me now. Calz is clearly a rogue program.

(Spoken bit: I wonder who you think you are
You damn well think you're God or something
God give life, God take it away, not you
I think you are the devil itself)

If hospitals cure
Then prisons must bring their pain
Don't be ashamed to slaughter
The center of humanity is cruelty
There is never redemption
Any fool can regret yesterday
Nail it to the House of Lords
You will be buried in the same box as a killer, as a killer, as a
killer
A drained white body hangs from the gallows
Is more righteous than Hindley's crotchet lectures
Pain not penance, forget martyrs, remember victims
The weak die young and right now we crouch to make them strong
Kill Yeltsin, who's saying?
Zhirinovsky, Le Pen,
Hindley and Brady, Ireland, Allit, Sutcliffe,
Dahmer, Nielson, Yoshinori Ueda,
Blanche and Pickles, Amin, Milosovic
Give them respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Execution needed
A bloody vessel for your peace
If man makes death then death makes man
Tear the torso with horses and chains
killers view themselves like they view the world, they pick at
the holes
Not punish less, rise the pain
Sterilise rapists, all I preach is
Extinction
Kill Yeltsin, who's saying?
Zhirinovsky, Le Pen,
Hindley and Brady, Ireland, Allit, Sutcliffe,
Dahmer, Nielson, Yoshinori Ueda,
Blanche and Pickles, Amin, Milosovic
Give them respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they d e s e r v e

MANICS REVEALED IN WANTING TO COMMIT GENOCIDE AGAINST ALL IRISH EVER SHOCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Furthermore, from 'The Manics Encyclopaedia', a website I feel guilty/glad to now discover, a Nicky Wire explanation of the song:

""That was the song that me and Richey worried about the most, and did the most work on. It was written as a reaction to the glorification of serial killers. In 'Silence of the Lambs', Hannibal Lecter is made in to a hero in the last scene of the film - people feel sorry for them. It's like that line from Therapy? 'Now I Know How Jeffrey Dahmer Feels' ('Trigger Inside' - Troublegum). I don't fucking want to know how Jeffrey Dahmer feels, and I think it's quite appalling to put yourself in that position. Everyone gets a self-destructive urge the urge to kill, but I don't particularly like the glorification of it. There's a book by Marcel Foucault with a chapter called 'Archives Of Pain'. Richey and I did that book at university, and it had quite an influence on us. It talks about the punishment matching the crime. But the song isn't a right-wing statement, it's just against this fascination with people who kill. A lot of people don't like to see rapists getting off with a £25 fine.
That line: 'Kill Yeltsin, who's saying?' - well, Yeltsin is a figure of hate to us. A person who's basically an alcoholic... that's a personal, petty manics thing."
(Nicky Wire; Melody Maker 27.8.94)

And an explanation of 'Ireland':

"IRELAND, COLIN

Serial killer - killed 5 people
Known in London as the "Gay Slayer", Colin strived to be known as a serial killer. For this purpose he strangled five homosexual men. Robert Ressler states in "However Fights Monsters" that one has to commit five murders to become a serial killer. Colin read the book and used it as a manual. He meticulously planned each murder as he set out to become a famous serial killer. He chose gay sado-masochistic men because they were willing to get tied up. Also, he believed that the public would feel less sympathy for them. Before his arrest he taunted the cops with rambling calls claiming responsibility for the murders and threatening to keep striking once a week. He even stated "I have got the book, I know how many you have to do...""

I was once into the Manics as it so happens, when I was younger, more stupid and far less well read and poilitcally aware. Once I left my teens I kinda started to see why they might the thickest band on the planet, and really rather offensive.

The mind reels.

Therefore the mind is Irish.

"(wow, that would sound really weird out of context)"
-- Justyn Dillingham (aubade8...), July 28th, 2003 8:54 PM.

"Even IN context it's weird, I think you're the only person in the world who has said that ever."

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), July 28th, 2003 8:55 PM.

Actually I have been known to say something remarkably similar (just the one word different in fact) on more than one occasion....

Chicks!

http://www.ruetihofeier.ch/images/Timo%20Gade.JPG

It is not better to keep shtum and have everyone think you're an idiot.

Anyway, I am not quite sure how the first quote contradicts what I said about it not being a black and white pro-torture/death penalty statement and that quite a bit of the song comes off sarcastic and bitter. Calum in not understanding shades of grey shockah, is what I was getting at...

And as for the comment:

"Humans are antithetical to other species. If you're for animal rights then you should be in favour of capital punishment too!"

That is even stupider than any of Ally's comments. As you may or may not know most of those involved with the animal welfare/ anti-vivisection cause are also fiercly opposed to state executions and Ally, your country should be ashamed to be the only Western nation to still carry out this barbaric outdated process. You should move on with the rest of us.

The only thing that worries is me is that I seriously believe a Brit-twat like David Blunkett actually WOULD install a death penalty here if that right wing cunt got the chance.

Jesus, she just gets more and more amusing...

http://www.bubblegun.com/images/manic1.gif

http://www.hunde-fan.de/CrazyDogs/CrazyBilder/Schnee.jpg

Your Love Alone Is Not Enough = #1 single of 2007

Yep. I'm calling it now.

someone else has already noticed

16. MANIC STREET PREACHERS ft. NINA PERSSON - Your Love Alone Is Not Enough

Theory - if Kelly Clarkson did a record with the Manics, it would be brilliant. This springs to mind because of the part of this song where Nina Persson gives a shout-out to 'You Stole The Sun From My Heart', a song which I had always thought was rubbish, but whose inclusion here somehow elevates it to heroic status. With Kelly singing... it might work, you know. I can hear her ripping into the "YOU! stole the SUN FROM!" bits, and it sounds fantastic. "Drinking water to stay thin, or is it to pee with? I love you all the same." "I paint the things I wanna see, but it don't come easy." I can really see this coming off. I'm a fucking genius, I am. Obviously, the rhythm might need some perking up...

I keep missing the context lecture on the Manics - the first time I took any notice of them, it was 1996 and all the historic bits of their history had happened while primary school me was wondering why they were always screaming and topless and so on. All I got left with were various Radio 1 presenters saying "Obviously, 'Motorcycle Emptiness' is a great pop song", a statement that, being 13-year-old me, I completely agreed with, despite not having any conception of what 'Motorcycle Emptiness' or 'great pop song' might consist of (I was a 13-year-old private school kid, so I was already very familiar with 'obviously'); that, and the conviction that 'A Design For Life' was entitled 'I Desire Four Lights'. This was also obviously a great pop song for reasons that were obvious (who was I to question Teletext?) The Manics I got left with were not the ones people keep talking about, but the ones that sell out the Millennium Stadium every other Thursday, the ones with beer guts and stretchmarks, the ones that came up with hideous cack like 'There By The Grace Of God' and, indeed, 'You Stole The Sun From My Heart' - big, anthemic numbers that they would play on telly and always look and sound incredibly bored by. They just skulked about and looked a bit miserable. And their records all sounded the same. It was the sound of Virgin Radio, unwelcomingly loud, cloddy stadium-fillers. They never meant anything, cos by the time I noticed them they were pretty much treated as just being part of the furniture.

And that's why I'm so shocked, so overcome by this record. Sonically, it sounds nearly regressed to that late-nineties torpor, the kind of sound that gets people asking "Why aren't they big in America?" The drums are all thud and cymbal. There's violin sweeps (note: not the same as in the Biffy Clyro single, not by a long shot). There's Nina Persson, for pity's sakes (obviously, The Cardigans may as well not have existed after 'Erase/Rewind' - great pop song though). Everything's as anthemic as ever - difference is, there is a fucking ANTHEM! And Nina Persson's the key - not that she's especially great vocally, but just the insertion of another voice, aside from the one in James Dean Bradfield's head that keeps telling him he's too old for this shit. For the first time I can remember, it feels like he's singing to someone other than himself.

But maybe it is her, too. Their voices sound great in unison, doubling up to smack home lines harder - that would be dynamics, wouldn't it? And there's dynamics all over the place - the drums may slop about for much of the song, but that just serves to make the bits where they wake up all the more thrilling. They serve as launch pads for the guitars and orchestral swoops, they take off for that universe, that world:

NINA: But your love alone won't save the world
You knew the secrets of the universe
JAMES: Despite it all you made it worse
It left you lonely
NINA: It left you cursed

I've spent two days now trying to unpick that. It sounds impossible in scale: the world and the universe and the possibility of one's existence within them - I honestly, really cannot remember the last time I heard a pop song deal with them so... I don't even know how. I'm just left gasping. Sitting here getting washed over, again and again, looking for the handle. There's so much feeling between the two voices; if this is disintegration, it hasn't ever sounded less bitter or hateful - "through all the pain" (hear him fucking roar that bit) "your eyes stay blue, they stay blue, baby blue".

Not even mentioning this:

JAMES: I could have left us in exile...
NICKY: I could have written all your lines...
JAMES & NINA: I could have shown you...
NICKY: I could have shown you...
NINA: How to cry...

It's the way Nicky Wire forces himself into the narrative, off the rhythm, the lyricist sticking his head through the page - if it's meant to be an in-joke, it certainly doesn't sound like it. He sounds cragged, bitter, like the stories he's written are falling to pieces before his eyes, the happy ending suddenly impossible so let's slip off the mask. The show is over. The world just ended, didn't it?

It makes tears well up in the corners of my eyes for reasons I will never be able to explain, possibly cos they don't exist - it feels like the natural reaction, like how Dimitar Berbatov makes me cry sometimes with his perfection (that really is the best analogy I can come up with, I'm sorry). It's too much to take in, even if it feels like it shouldn't be. I'm exhausted, overcome and delighted all at once.

I'm a sentimental bastard, as I said before. The thing is, I don't think that has anything to do with it.

(I've just been watching the video for 'Everything Must Go'. James Dean Bradfield falling to his knees in a hail of pink petals, screaming "HAPPY, HAPPY" - it's pretty awesome)

I just checked these guys out for the first time on youtube (never heard any Richey stuff, just some boring thing from "This Is My Truth" and Know Your Enemy back in college) and judging from the opening riffs and opening culture quotes they'd come off like the best band ever, the whole Clash'n'Slash thing, and then lose me by the second chorus. I'm fascinated enough to dig deeper and try it again, but on first listen EVERY song had the same effect.

At the very least, I love the idea of this band to death.

OK: piece of namedropping follows which makes contributing a JPEG to AICON look like getting yrself entered in the phone directory, in terms of self-destructive vainty and cool/anti-cool ambivalent gesture: here goes
Simon Price once remarked to Steven Wells and me, over a curry in Harlesden (see what I mean) as follows — pause for effect: "It is reMARKable [imagine a slight Welsh lilt here] that the three most important and influential bands in rock'n'roll history are British."

So who d'you mean, said Swellsy and I, agog — well, perhaps not agog, but certainly intrigued (bearing in mind that SimonP was at this time still in his High Peacock-Goth fashion phase, all gold and blue and bigt hair and time-consuming facepaint).

"The Beatles, the Sex Pistols aand — " and here SIMON paused for effect, " — Visage."

After this, I can forgive him anything, frankly. And who cares if he meant it or not?

-- mark s, Thursday, April 5, 2001 1:00 AM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

actually remember reading this about six years ago, still makes me chuckle.

thing of it: at the time i would have been lol visage, but -- challenging opinion ahoy -- visage > sex pistols.

Reviving the general Manics thread to share a bit of history...

http://thequietus.com/articles/17436-manic-street-preachers-holy-bible-james-dean-bradfield-interview

This is cool. Thanks for sharing.

You're welcome! (A little surprised at the quiet reaction here, I admit!)

I can't imagine even attempting that interview after only having had time for a half-listen. Must have been quite a day.

Fascinating little piece of history. So if I read the introduction right, James was supposed to be heading to the US with Richey, but he didn't show up (and would never show up again), so James travelled by himself, talked to you and some others, then came home to... everything that happened after? Did he say anything about Richey not coming along? The album had been out since the previous summer in the UK - how come you hadn't heard it before then? I realise things were different in the 1990s, but I also know you were listening to a lot of UK stuff in that period. Anyway, it's great you still had the tape.

Pretty much what you see in the interview about Richey is what he said -- no direct mention of him not coming along, and I didn't have any sense of why he would or wouldn't be there. I would just have been "Oh, okay, James is doing a promo tour and I have a chance to chat, cool." That's it, really. James I gather headed home precisely because Richey in fact had not only gone away but had simply disappeared, and had been contacted about it.

And yup, it had been out buuuuut you are talking about a poor grad student at the time who was doing music writing and college DJ work as I could. Some things simply weren't easily affordable; I'm sure the baseline price around then for the import would have been something like $22 or the like. And that's a chunk of change! So yeah, didn't have it yet.

awesome read, thanks for posting that, ned -- i recall you mentioning the interview a long time ago but couldn't remember ever reading it. iirc richey had actually gone missing for a couple days a few weeks previously before turning up again, so that might explain why james went ahead with the interviews, assuming richey was just having a bad day or something.

Wow @ the timing of that interview. James is such a smart, honest interviewee.

Might as well revive this thread too, having done that for the Suede one -- US coheadline tour in November.

https://americansongwriter.com/the-london-suede-manic-street-preachers-tour-north-america-in-2022

So I posted that Quietus piece with my JDB interview from 1995 ten years back upthread a little bit...and now, if you subscribe to Rock's Backpages, you can hear it too.

https://rocksbackpages.com/Library/Article/manic-street-preachers-james-dean-bradfield-1995