The Clash: Classic or Dud

Another day, another Classic (Clashic?) or Dud. I don't like the Clash. I borrowed a couple of their records just after discovering the Pistols and just thought they were a muggy mess. Then I tried again. And again. And again, most recently last year. And I still don't like them. I hate their myth, of course, but I don't think much of the Pistols' myth and I like their music. So it's not quite that. And I admire all the styles and influences they absorbed, too, and their attempts to keep their music fresh. So I think it might be as simple a thing as the voice and tunes not suiting me.

B.A.D.'s "E=MC2" I think is ace, though.

Didn't know about the Manics remix, but that's the safe thing of commisioning a remix isn't it? You don't get your hands dirty.

Where to start? The debut didn't have the best production but it sounds bloody powerful to me. Great songs too. They were never a straight-ahead punk band to me - the different musical roots all showed - Jones' glam guitar and camp singing, Strummer's rockabilly past and Simenon's immersion in Brixton dub-reggae. The inclusion of 'Police and Thieves' (and working with Lee Perry on 'Complete Control') was a brave and interesting move for the times, and totally genuine. I really can't see that they were interested in 'being down with the brother'.

I never really liked 'Give'em enough Rope', but all the hype about 'London Calling' is, for me, justified. Great, great rock and roll. 'Sandinista' is flawed genius - the band doing what they wanted, rather than what they should. Sure there's some crap on there, but THIS IS WHAT I WANT from artists - surprise, risk, the possibility of something new. 'Combat Rock' hasn't aged well, and 'Cut the Crap' isn't the Clash at all.

The Live album is beyond fantastic - if you can't get the power of the songs through the 1977 production, just hear the first album songs on this! As for the live versions of 'Bankrobber', 'City of the Dead' and 'Armagideon Time' - words fail me - genius. It;'s possibly the best Clash album of all! No doubt there will be some who agree and some who don't. It'll be interesting to follow the thread. Me? I'm in love with rock and roll, whoa!

Anyway, The Clash has been my favorite band since I was 15. I won't try to explain why right now, and I'm not sure anything I could think of right now could quite explain their utter greatness. But in the meantime, a fucking C-L-A-S-S-I-C.

The voices sound perfectly fine to me - Strummer was, like Dylan, a limited singer whose voice was perfectly suited to his music - passionate and full of heart. And the way they integrated black music into their sound, especially reggae, feels more organic to me than any similar attempt by a white band - not that people try this sort of thing much lately.

Also, they were lots of fun - this is really important. Forget all the serious crap that everyone including myself always says about them.

Hmmm, I'll be back later :)

but the afghan whig's cover of "lost in the supermarket" is fab.

Anyhow, classic. I don't know why. I just love them. The voice works with the songs, in general. The music rocks. It might also help to note that I think the Sex Pistols blow goats, so maybe it's impossible to like both bands, since about half the people saying they dislike the Clash have mentioned liking the Sex Pistols (or are people I know like them).

And, for the record, I think the Repeat mix is better than the Repeat original, but it's not saying much cos Repeat is one of the Manics' most annoying pre-disappearance songs. It's probably one of the most obvious examples of the pedestrian cut-and-paste sloganeering, innit?

They continually evolved, which is more than I can say for 99% of the shite that people call "classic" these days. You know you're a Clash fan when you wish that SANDINISTA! was 4 records...

And how can you say they haven't aged well?!? Tell me, who in the last 15 years has gone down a similar path to the Clash and outdone them? That's right, nobody. Nobody has even come close.

This is strangely true. My opinions on these two bands have totally reversed. At the time the Clash were, for a period, virtually gods to me (but I was rather indifferent to the Sex Pistols who seemed musically conservative). Now the Sex Pistols seem the more god-like, and the Clash a contrived mix of political posturing and repellent, ugly music

FUCKING CLASSIC

And the Ruts doing white reggae better? "Jah War" versus "The Guns of Brixton" or "One More Time"? Come on, there's no contest.

As for comments about Strummer's voice - who do you fuckin' want singing then? Neil Hannon? Mr. Belle and Sebastian? Kiri Te Kanawa?

Anyhow, yeah, what the hell? How can the existance of Rancid make the Clash's music good or bad? This gets perilously into the territory of a previous thread about holding the bands inspired by someone against the original band - an idea pretty much everyone disowned because it would mean every band ever would be labelled crap because someone out there who is talentless is inspired by them. It's unfair.

And Rancid aren't that bad - they could be, like, the Levellers.

Anyway, both the Clash and Rancid come across as patent bores who can't do anything interesting to save their lives. On that level they're equally culpable. ;-)

Also a double lp was a bit of a bad idea, but a triple!?

Tanya: Well, if you are such a fan of Marillion, then you should be happy that they have aged well and nobody has surpassed them in recent years and made them look bad! ;)

Oh yes, and you can chalk me up as one who thinks both the Pistols (all 1 albums of them) and the Clash are brilliant.

Therefore, the Smiths are the worst band of all time because Gene suck.

Wire = Elastica = Crap. Madonna = Christina Aguilera = Crap. Clash = Rancid = Crap.

"we're middle class - yeah, yeah, yeah ----we come from public school - yeah, yeah, yeah" ;-)

"they told us to release complete control - so we DID!" x0x0

x0x0

I think I'd be fine with that, actually.

See, that sounds cool.

All those digs at the Clash: venomous hogwash. SCORIA. ALL OF IT!!!!!! TAKE IT BACK, SUCKAZ!

I love them so much,
always did and always will,
fun and cool and smart

I do prefer "London Calling", but their debut is also nice enough due to its great melodies and choruses.

Yeah, this = true, but at the same time, if you think a band sucks (like the clash, who i still think are totally dud) and there are a load of shit bands who copy them, then you can't help but hate them all the more!

(gier - the buzzcocks and the stranglers wrote better tunes than the clash or the pistols, as you must surely know!)

NB if you are near a branch of hmv, you can get the ruts' "the crack" c/w loads of bonus cuts for 4.99

i love the way strummer's voice sounds during 'train in vain' - what a great song.

perhaps you were'nt around in the late 70s, but the political situation was very different then. To ally yourself with black music was to be against the rise of the far right, who were on the march in London. Nobody disses the Slits or the Ruts for incorporating a lot of reggae in their sound. UK punk was forged in an alliance of outsider white music and outsider black music (reggae not soul/disco).
I'm all for re-evaluating sacred cows, but get the context right, and you'll never convince me not to love the clash..

The Clash are classic.

Of course the Clash were keenly aware that their fetischization of Reggae music was problematic - thus "White Man (In Hammersmith Palais)", "Safe European Home" and the tongue-in-cheek "White Riot" (well, I've always hoped that it was tongue-in-cheek, because taken straight-faced it is one of the dumbest songs ever written.)

Train in Vain and Lover's Rock are soul, Lost in the Supermarket is disco, and that's before Sandanista! and Combat Rock...

"White Riot" is a longing for white solidarity with black insurrection, which might be dumb as a newspaper editorial or thesis paper, when it comes to a riot, but was incredibly smart on a gut, emotional, rock&roll level. I still would have told the Clash to put down the bricks and organize, but it's not like they did much rioting after Notting Hill.

Ultimately, y'all heard them at an impressionable age, they had the right attitude and political agenda, and you are smoking crack if you don't think their reputation has been overblown a bit over the years. Not a dud per se, just an average band that somehow grew into a legend without the songs to really justify it. Sorry.....

White riot, I wanna riot
White riot, a riot of my own
White riot, I wanna riot
White riot, a riot of my own
Black man gotta lot a problems
But they don't mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick

[Emphasis added.]

How is this a "longing for solidarity" rather than simple envy?

Clash: Dud. Sorry.

Even if it were pure envy, it would be brilliant. How many songs are about something you want, whether or not you should have it? It's the exact opposite of the "being down" nonsense at the top. The song says, in effect, "I'm not black. I have my own struggle. But I wish I could lash out like that. I identify with that feeling."

Did any whites come close to being this honest in the universalist '50s or '60s? Did Dylan ever mention being white at all? Imagine Elvis putting images from the '68 Memphis sanitation workers strike that broke into riots on a record sleeve, and singing about how black men marching on Beale Street might be something a white truck driver should emulate, and you begin to understand the impact this song had for punks at the time.

I only came to deeply love the Clash in '88, at a cool distance from all that (and when I was 18), so I'm at least objective enough to hear that Strummer is singing in key, whatever else you don't like about his voice or delivery...

like everyone really.

it is a great song, but that's not strummer.

I had a long post here, but on review this is the most important thing:

Pash used to sign posts with "xoxo"?!!

Sex Pistols, Buzzcocks and the Damned.The Big Three

The Clash always were those annoying student union types.Posturing and homourless
Mick Jones had a way superior voice compared to Strummer's bark.

Overrated and embarrasing

That's a damn fine Big Three, but the first Clash album still sounds like balls-out Punk Rock to me.

Fer Ark OTM.

oddly enough these guys are somehow classic AND dud. I love stuff like "white man in hammersmith palais" and "this is radio clash". hell, I even liked rude boy.

but listening to an entire album by them is fucking tiring.

wikipedia rude boy lulz

In a rare interview, Ray Gange subsequently confessed that much of his dialogue contained thoughts and ideas that he felt silly voicing. Therefore the pivotal scene when Gange's girlfriend leaves him after he tells her: "Don't call me love, I don't believe in it," should not interpreted to mean that the actual Ray Gange ever lost his faith in love or romance, a fact which should offer massive reassurance to women everywhere.

I can't tell if the "Strummer can't sing!" posts are serious or not. I mean, OMG WTF that Albert Ayler sure hit a lot of wrong notes! And that Thelonious Monk, his chords are just incorrect!

Anyway, classic. Given their actual origins/upbringings, the whole "student union types" thing applies to them about as accurately as it does to Lynyrd Skynyrd.

Because on the first records the sound so terribly thin (so weak in comparison with say The Pistols)

Yeh, maybe the first album could do with a "Raw Power" style remastering but the songs still stand up. For me, 'Deny' captures the sound of hopelessness and nilhism more than anything the Pistols did.

Tommy Gun
safe Euro home
Complete control
White man....
garageland

classics

It's the reverence that does my head in.

the Ramones meant way more to me. As a Yankophile, that shouldn't be a surprise.

I hate shit Clash with a vengeance- the stuff that' made' them - 'Should I stay...' and that other shitter

Rock the Fucking Casbah - that one. DESTROY

"Give 'em Enough Rope" tho, apart from Safe European Home, is a load shit.

"of"

"this is radio clash" is one of my favorite videos ever. I grew up outside of nyc in the 70s/80s, and it captures in shorthand something essential about the feel of those times. a gritty vibrancy coupled with hopeless paranoia. yeah, they were posturing twats but all is forgiven in moments like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-t52zc8Ex4

I missed
'I fought The Law' from my shitty list. You out here must know what I mean? Fucking annoying overprived clash types

"Fucking annoying overprived clash types" - you're writing this from a Zapatista training camp, right?

^ do not understand? Is that a political statement? To change the world.

wasn't this kind of thing understood about the clash from the beginning? even in lipstick traces greil marcus calls the clash "the Yes to the pistols' impenetrable No" or some such, which is a polite way of saying what you're saying.

i think it's possible to understand the clash as sentimentalists, pretenders, counter-cultural dickriders, etc, and still want to bump them all the time. in their compromised way they were still very much the real thing, maybe even moreso

Soukesian
I quite like the Clash
Just get a bit annnoyed about their canonical status. Apologies.Each to their own

(not that lipstick traces is exactly "the beginning" of the discourse surrounding punk, but yougetme)

The Big Three: Metal Box, Black Market Clash, Pink Flag

The Big Three: Metal Box, Black Market Clash Cut, Pink Flag

If you're gonna start listing shit like Wire

Eddie and the Hot Rods
Eater
Johnny Moped
Adverts
Prefects
Suburban Studs
Lurkers
ATV

WIRE WERE FUCKING ACE.
Beyond those three

and the Boys.
top boys

i think it's possible to understand the clash as sentimentalists, pretenders, counter-cultural dickriders, etc, and still want to bump them all the time. in their compromised way they were still very much the real thing, maybe even moreso

^this

dylan was a big faker too but he either faked it so well or was so talented that it didn't matter.

next thing you'll tell me sid's name wasn't really vicious

but big ups for the johnny moped love

I'm a Hard Loving Mad ,Ted

Fer - re exasperation with 'canonical status', I totally understand. Actually feel that way about Wire myself, but let's not get into THAT.

x post
too true. Seriously

but listening to an entire album by them is fucking tiring.

-- Edward III

london calling??

especially london calling. by side 3 it's just fatiguing. woo hoo, stick around for "the card cheat"! the earnestness gets wearying, and frankly it's a mystery how they can make a 3:30 song feel like it's dragging on forever.

it's weird cause I'm not a clash hater, it's just that I can only take them in small doses.

its a mystery to me how you can feel like that (about LC)! the first half is a lot stronger, definitely (like, insanely, possibly unprecedentedly strong) but the 2nd half is still pretty great- its always been one of my favorite albums, & definitely my favorite clash album: there isn't the same degree of sameness as the first two or the schizophrenia of sandanista; maybe that's what you mean by 'earnestness' - they were definitely going for a beatles-like masterwork with this one, lots of mood & stylistic variance centered around seriously catchy songs.

so as far as the title track is conerned: are most of the haters here old-school punk fans who think LC was hypocritical, in that sense?

The Clash are the greatest band of all time

"Give 'em Enough Rope" tho, apart from Safe European Home, is a load shit.

Wrong.

The Clash are the greatest band of all time

-- admrl

quite possibly yeah

they were definitely going for a beatles-like masterwork with this one

fool's gold

as in impossible to replicate so dont try or as in not worth replicating because it sucks in the first place? i disagree 100% either way

that's cuz you haven't listened to enough johnny moped

I can imagine the clash sitting around thinking "man, let's go for the masterwork with this one" and then you sitting around listening to london calling thinking "man, what a masterwork this is" and that's a dynamic I can't really get wrapped up in but I'm glad you all are happy together

ive never listened to johnny moped (?!?) but will do

but in other words, youre mad because the clash mightve consciously decided to make a great album qua album? doesnt that seem kinda silly?

mad? no, just not that interested in an idea of greatness that never struck me as all that great in the first place. and it's not some intellectual exercise for me - the things that excite you about london calling seem to be the same qualities that instinctively make me reach for the eject button.

their girlfriends were making much more interesting music than they were at this point. one "newtown" is worth ten of "train in vain".

thing is im 100% a singles guy: i think whats remarkable about LC is that practically ever song is killer. THATS what it excites me about it - the fact that they all manage to somehow congeal while representing an astonishing kind of variety makes it all the more incredible to me. the accessibility of the album is ridiculous, i can play it for almost literally anyone & get a positive response. although its possible i guilt them into it w/ my enthusiasm.

xp id like to know more about that too! (btw i love 'train in vain', seems to get a bad rap as filler)

http://commercialzone.blogspot.com/2008/07/slits-cut-1979.html

Granted, some tracks (This is Radio Clash, The Magnificent 7) were really truly terrible.

'Combat Rock' hasn't aged well

CHALLENGING OPINIONS

Give 'em Enough Rope is just weak, man. Produced by someone out of Blue Oyster Cult for a start, and it also features 'Stay Free' - perhaps the most embarrasing song they ever recorded.

I can imagine the clash sitting around thinking "man, let's go for the masterwork with this one"

Yeah, that'd be why their producer threw chairs at them while they were recording. I believe George Martin employed the EXACT SAME TECHNIQUE on Sgt. Pepper.

Produced by someone out of Blue Oyster Cult for a start,

No, produced by BOC's producer, Sandy Pearlman. Do you hate the production, or just the association with (gasp!) BOC?

No, produced by BOC's producer, Sandy Pearlman. Do you hate the production, or just the association with (gasp!) BOC?

A bit of both to be honest. I dont hate BOC, just think it was a misjudged choice of producer, but maybe the same was thought about Guy Stevens producing London Calling. I can't say all of the production's to blame, as rickity as it is, it just sounds like a group who can't be bothered for the most part. Good album cover though.

Didn't one of BOC go out with Patti Smith?

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that I wished they had attempted a dub crossover thing much sooner, rather than merely hinting at it on the first LP then pussying out.

I was meant to be seeing Johnny Moped next weekend but the fucker cancelled.

that sucks, but I'm in the US so my chances of seeing him here are slim to nil.

I was just blasting V.D. Boiler when I was doing the washing up the other night.

"Produced by someone out of Blue Oyster Cult for a start,"

Where I come from this is definitely a good thing.

Yes, BOC's guitarist/keyboardist/weirdo Allen Lanier dated Patti Smith. She wrote a lot of lyrics on some early BOC albums.

I can imagine the clash sitting around thinking "man, let's go for the masterwork with this one" and then you sitting around listening to london calling thinking "man, what a masterwork this is" and that's a dynamic I can't really get wrapped up in but I'm glad you all are happy together

I don't LOVE the Clash or London Calling, and the record's relentlessly promoted "greatness" does tend to keep me at arm's length -- but it's nonetheless very hard to deny. And I don't think it helps anything to throw Johnny Moped or Cycledelic up against the Clash/LC. Different bands, different visions of "punk". Both great, but neither eclipses the other.

This thread has encouraged me to check out Johnny Moped, thanks ILM.

Incidentally, about 4 days before this thread was revived, I had a dream that I was watching a film of The Clash live, some kind of I dunno...live film of them or documentary or something. I woke up really puzzled about that.

I can imagine the clash sitting around thinking "man, let's go for the masterwork with this one" and then you sitting around listening to london calling thinking "man, what a masterwork this is" and that's a dynamic I can't really get wrapped up in but I'm glad you all are happy together

This is the weirdest thing I've ever read on this site.

Yeah I had to read that one a few times, but I'm okay with it.

30 years ago yesterday I saw the Clash on their 2nd US tour at the University of Maryland Richie Colisseum. Awesome show.

I'm 100% envious. Love those guys, together, separately...love em. I always enjoyed that quote of Joe's about Mick: "He wouldn't show up, and when he did it was like Elizabeth Taylor in a filthy mood." Always made me LOL. Someone said WAY upthread about how funny they were...it's true, everyone thinks of them as boring bolshy swots, or Rik from the Young Ones.

What do you remember of the show? Feel free to wax lyrical...living vicariously etc

two weeks from now is the anniversary of my seeing them in '82! I was very young and impressionable. a reggae band called the Mighty Invaders opened. They played "The Prisoner". We had to drive a couple of hours to get there. The guy I got a ride with had a Bush Tetras poster on his wall.

x-post. I had missed their 1978 DC debut as high schooler at mom and Dad's me could not get a car and it was a snowy night and the show was in a kinda bad neighborhood, blah blah blah. Bo Diddley opened for them on that tour. So in September 1979 when then 18 year-old me was just starting at the U of Md outside DC and the Clash were coming (with Screaming Jay Hawkins opening). I was there. Early. I went there with friends and met others who would become my best buds to this day. The sound was horrible in that ancient 1,800 seat (?)concrete gym, but the Clash had so much energy and charisma. Joe had various stickers on his guitar. We stood up front jammed in with many on the floor. It was hot and sweaty there but that did not matter.

The show so impressed us that come December (I think) when the Clash returned for a US tour that did not include DC, we did a roadtrip to Philly to see them. There they played some of the soon to be or just released London Calling album, which aggravated some punkers there. We stuck around afterwards and met the band and Ian Dury who was touring with them. They did not want all the food spread that was there for them and told us to take some of it with us for our ride back to DC. We did (plus a bottle of rum--that we barely touched but treasured as "the Clash rum.").

That is really cool. Great story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EUVImnHr48

I've seen tons of gigs since then, I've read Simon Reynolds and others badmouth and critique the Clash for various reasons, but those 2 gigs, especially that first one I saw, still retain a mystical memorable quality to me. I remember us going back to a dorm and just sitting there on the floor drained but ecstatic. Also, context-wise, the Clash were far from being a band that would get played on the radio then.

OTM. Hard to overstate the impact of the early singles and the first album, which still sound shockingly raw to me, even when stacked up against the big names of the first wave of UK punk.

I'm about three feet away from being immortalized on the back cover of London Calling--that pic of them at the Agora in Atlanta. We were trying but couldn't get any closer to the stage. I've always wondered if that pic was cropped and I made the original photo. The band was like a runaway freight train. I'll always rank seeing them as a highlight.

September '79 is when I saw them, too -- St. Paul (MN) Civic Center, with David Johansen and The Undertones. 1,000 people (probably every punk and new waver in the Twin Cities at the time) in a 16,000 seat hockey arena made the sound simultaneously tinny and cavernous. I wish I had pushed up closer to the stage. I can really only remember "Bored With the USA" and "White Riot." Yeah, they were doing quite a few unfamiliar-to-me "London Calling" songs on that tour. Quite honestly I thought Johansen (doing basically the set that's on the "Live It Up" album) came across much better.

wow. curmudgeon and ellagru, Dan...thanks for sharing! I love hearing about that stuff. And curmudgeon, your story probably highlights one of the big reasons that Clash are so so C in my book: I never got to see them, or even Joe ever, but the stories I heard, and the stories I read from people about the way they were with their fans, those reams and reams of stories about them giving food to kids, letting them crash, giving them rides, hanging out and talking to them...that's what keeps them from being crusty punk cliches for me. Aside from the music of course. Because there's such a huge oral history that goes with those guys, because SO many people got close to them in those early years, and those people help them still feel, I dunno...real? Sorry. Waxing lyrical too much.

worst "2001 ilx" way to start off a thread ever

Only discovered "Bankrobber" last year but MY GOD, what a song, a parallel-universe "I Fought The Law".

Classic, easy. What I find most funny about this band is how my opinion has pretty much flip-flopped on the various sides of their work since I first heard 'em. When I got really into the Clash at age 14, I could only be bothered with the first three albums and couldn't stand Sandinista in the least. Now I tend to shy away from the more classic "punk" stuff (though its good at times) and really like the dubbier experiments. Listening to "Mustapha Dance" right now and loving it.

And as I understand it, "Sandinista!" was written almost entirely in the studio, as the members filtered in and out between NYC distractions. Talk about a band at the peak of its powers, spilling over with ideas. Rarely get credit for being early (white, British) hip-hop adopters, too.

revisiting the first album...this will sound mega-goofball of me but it gives me goosebumps. It's just so 'turn everything up, go for broke'. Love it.

ugh at all the 'strummer can't sing' comments on this thread.

i mean give me 20 hours of joe barking the phone book over two seconds of jeff fuckin' buckley.

joe would have loved jeff tho

classic! (ecxept cut the crap obv)

It's better than its rep.

So my 17-year-old son likes The Clash's London Calling cd but this slightly older NPR intern is lukewarm about it (see below). They should get rid of this kid:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/allsongs/2011/02/11/133631581/youve-never-heard-london-calling

here's part of his review:

Ultimately, London Calling feels like a time-and-place album. If I'd been a teenager when this record dropped, I probably would sing its praises like so many others have. It's definitely a great entry point to one of the most important bands and periods in the last 30 years, and I plan on checking out the rest of the group's discography. I'm not giving up on the band, but I've come to love the subsequent bands London Calling inspired more than the album itself.

Um, that reads OK to me.

That's a bit like my take on "Big Star"...

What bands did it inspire? I preferred the Clash when they were a punk band personally. Coupla later singles aside.

Well, you have yer Alarm, yer Manics, oh god...

Yeah, I'd be curious to hear who he likes that were inspired by The Clash. If his only answer is Green Day, then I know to not take him seriously.

Well, you have yer Alarm, yer Manics, oh god...

Exactly, I don't think it inspired anyone good

It also inspired a lot of good bands that sound nothing like that album, so hey

No Doubt, sorry, no doubt

Yeah, I'd be curious to hear who he likes that were inspired by The Clash. If his only answer is Green Day, then I know to not take him seriously.

Rancid?

What about stuff like the Angelic Upstarts? Though maybe that's not what this kid is talking about. I'm thinking there were a ton of bands that sprang up in 77 from the Clash/Pistols emergence?

Yeah, I'd be curious to hear who he likes that were inspired by The Clash. If his only answer is Green Day, then I know to not take him seriously.

I hear The Replacements in "Four Horsemen" and Ted Leo and the Pharmacists in "Lost in the Supermarket." Other songs sound like they're laying the groundwork for the influx of pop-punk acts that spent the last two decades on the extreme-sports and music Warped Tour.

Grr at "if I'd been a teenager when this record dropped..."

(...unless he means "dropped onto my old-fashioned turntable", I guess)

The amount of music in London Calling is staggering, but the songs aren't all winners. For every "Spanish Bombs" or "Death or Glory," there's a "Rudie Can't Fail" or "Jimmy Jazz."

RIGHT THAT'S IT

I think I want to kill him. Not because he's not enthused, but...maybe it's the tone? agh.

Rudie and Jimmy aren't winners? GTFO.

Light your torches, people

Nah, I just clicked the link and read the whole thing. He's basically alright.

I'm okay with him being lukewarm

but Rudie Can't Fail...

I just can't

Tom's recent "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" is worth a read for the intelligent anti-Clash sentiments in the comments.

joe would have loved jeff tho

if only he'd lived long enough to hear him :(

i hope this kid gives 'london calling' a few more spins. i mean, i didn't love it all the first time i heard it either.

i'm sure the clash have had all sorts of influence on bands that don't actually sound like them, but most of the ones who actually tried to act and look like the clash were indeed pretty shitty, yes.

Rudie and Jimmy aren't winners? GTFO.

― Hardcore Bangage (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, April 13, 2011 1:41 PM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I'm still reeling over Rudie

It's just so sad, I want to help him...or beat him senseless, i can't decide

Tom's piece is fantastic and the comments cover the waterfront nicely. As someone who came to the Clash late and not wholeheartedly, I always felt that having reservations was crucial to liking them, and that the band themselves (or at least Strummer) would probably concur. They're a band who tried so many things that they were bound to fuck up some of them, but that gave their failures a certain nobility. People who profess to hate them seem to hate the myth more than the music.

watching clash live on youtube - they really seemed to not care how they sounded that much and it was still awesome - how inspiring

I love the way they look like they're going to leap into the crowd and start whaling on them, esp Joe

The Clash are probably my favorite live band ever, but is there any doubt that they did too many drugs in the studio?

As someone who came to the Clash late and not wholeheartedly, I always felt that having reservations was crucial to liking them, and that the band themselves (or at least Strummer) would probably concur. They're a band who tried so many things that they were bound to fuck up some of them, but that gave their failures a certain nobility. People who profess to hate them seem to hate the myth more than the music.

― Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Thursday, April 14, 2011 7:50 AM (1 year ago)

this really sums it up nicely!

I've been learning all of "London Calling" with my guitar teacher, track by track, which has forced a closer listen. Remarkable how much chorus effect is on almost all the guitars, also how so many of the simple chord progressions support some awesome arrangements (organ, horns, percussion, etc.). Also amazed to discover that, for some inexplicable reason, "Lost in the Supermarket" seems to be in open E tuning, which is weird and relatively rare outside of the Allman Bros. and, I dunno, "She Talks to Angels" by the Black Crowes.

Ooh Ooh Ooh, Complete CLASH POLL (that's a laugh) - ILX Artist Poll #41 (?) - Voting Ends July 9th at Midnight (EST)

super-mad to be travelling during Clash poll and disco poll and Neptunes results

Spanish bums

http://bandwidth.wamu.org/nick-hall-on-i-need-a-dodge-his-film-about-joe-strummers-soul-searching-years-after-the-clash/

In his first full-length documentary, I Need A Dodge: Joe Strummer On The Run, English filmmaker Nick Hall investigates what seems like a nearly impossible task to find Strummer’s car, a Dodge GT3700, lost in Madrid more than 20 years ago.

Why search for the Dodge? Because Strummer — who died 13 years ago — loved the car. It transported him from Madrid to Granada and the rest of Spain during his creative crisis. But the car is simply, well, a vehicle. The film’s real aim is to document Strummer’s search for a new identity. It captures his devastation as The Clash disbands for good, then follows his recovery as he dedicates himself to producing a record for 091, a young and unknown band from Granada.

The tale of Strummer’s 18-month “Spanish period” is told mostly through the memories of other musicians, who were first enamored by The Clash leader, then became his friends and collaborators.

Sounds interesting if a little reaching

Yep, that's how it was

Not all flattering re Strummer--he only races back to London from Granada at one point because his significant other has called him (via a bandmate) and said that she's about to give birth and would like him there in the hospital. He had gotten so wrapped up in doing something new musically (producing the obscure band 091) after his version II of the Clash disentegrated (and folks were giving him grief for the dismissal of Mick Jones and more) that he lost track of stuff.

Oh, and it does sound like "Spanish bums" sometimes...

Pleasantly surprised by "Janey Jones" at a Five Guys this morning.

Circa 1999, I was well known for my hilarious parody song, “I’m in love with the Jenny Jones Show!

Ha

I thought those were the actual words, for longer than I would care to admit.

My wife always thought Mick Jones was saying Oh my car is on throughout Spanish Bombs

shareef don't like it,
lock the taskbar

I used to think it was a song about walls.

The rock and roll wall
The Ghetty Stone wall
The ginnyjone wall

etc

lmao mark. that's good.

haha mark otm, i used to think that too!!

*bump*

classic

Always

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/sandinista-188352/

We can still use that stubborn Sixties morality, and we would do well to remember the missed opportunity of punk — the revolution that wasn’t — without the simple postures of either of those underachieved countercultures. But we also need these post movement, postideological, private and public “count me out — and in” complications of identification and distance, of participation in and respite from the varieties of violence in the world and the inequalities that cause them. If I were younger, I’d write something on a bathroom wall. It’d be a lot shorter and more to the point. Maybe Lennon lives, Clash rule and rock against Reagan. And I wouldn’t worry about the improbabilities.

I had a blast last night at an International Clash Day dance party & art show. Some local players did a one-off cover band focusing on material up through London Calling (plus the two hits).

classic, then and now

burn all early-ILX UK contrarians at the stake

Even Ned?

Lol

I said "UK", 1st poster "Omar" specifically

I'm sure Ned has realized the error of his ways :)

omar was dutch? or spanish iirc

I stand corrected, before my time. But yeah these old threads really double down on the sacred cow mutilation, to their detriment.

NED IS A CITIZEN OF THE WORLD

“ Why? Because the voices are shit” is one of my all-time favorite ILX lines

Did anyone listen to the Spotify miniseries history (hosted by Chuck D)? It was predictable hagiography, but still worth it imo. Lots of archival interviews. Last episode did a nice job of ending with the Joe/B.A.D. reunion, instead of the back-to-roots Clash mark 2 show. (I have a boot of the Latino Rockabilly War first show where they cover a few songs from the 2nd BAD record.)

Started to because a friend of mine mentioned it but got derailed/distracted. What I heard was pretty good. Obviously Chuck is burning his as well as their legend though.

Ha. Maybe. Both groups always wanted legend + mainstream success though. No doubt one of the reasons they're both interesting, but also why many the children of the double IPA generation are too good for them.

I liked that podcast in the predictable ways I would, as both a Clash and PE fan. I did learn a fair amount. My favorite episode was the recording of Sandinista, which made me revisit it. It sound like it was fun to make.

Burning=burnishing

what's the best book about the Clash

Last Gang In Town, probably

that was my guess but hard to tell from rando internet reviews

got it from the library - am learning a lot and generally enjoying it, but Grey's fixation on the band's various inauthenticities ("Joe Strummer's family life was not as terrible as he initially made it out to be!" or whatever) is kinda irritating/stupid

yeah I thought of caveating, but it doesn’t change the fact that the reporting is good

he gets really cranky & bitter abt selling out later on, iirc

lol I suspected as much

Yeah, but wasn't 'Sandinista!' their 'Kid A'?

― tarden, Wednesday, 6 June 2001 bookmarkflaglink

lol

I really don't want to hate-listen to Sandinista but this might've pushed me over the edge

Something interesting I just discovered: the US version of the debut album has been memory-holed.

To recap, for those who don't know... the Clash's debut came out in the UK in 1977, but CBS in America hated it, so it didn't come out here until after Give 'Em Enough Rope, and the track listing was radically altered. "Deny," "Cheat," "Protex Blue," and "48 Hours" were removed, and post-album singles "Clash City Rockers," "Complete Control," "(White Man) In Hammersmith Palais," and "I Fought The Law" were added, and the single mix of "White Riot" was swapped for the LP version. But if you pull the album up on Spotify in the US now, you get the UK version.

Black Market Clash gone too

Now you have to go into the comps and box sets to make a playlist version.

Although people already have

But if you pull the album up on Spotify in the US now

This is a very specific and miniature memory hole

Appalling. Here you go: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5JaaajKZNOxriOZCJIZqB7?si=8f3a26cf911c4341

needs the 7" version of White Riot

I wanted to check Discogs before saying that Black Market Clash was "memory-holed" twenty-eight years ago when Super Black Market Clash came out worldwide, but an Omaha bar / Star Wars t-shirt shop did license a 5,000 copy 10" pressing from Sony in 2011

The weirdest thing about Super Black Market Clash was that it left off so many tracks from the original. I love the meandering b-sides, but it seems like those missing tracks would have still fit on the CD.

I don’t remember the pretty intro to “Capitol Radio.”

Is there any specific reason why a band with six albums on the same label has such a confused discography? Are there any songs from 1977-1985 that never came out on CD, or are currently not available or anthologized?

Good point.

xp:
Talk about memory holes. One of VG’s absentminded thread.

Now I’ve been studying the charts
Using my mind and my imagination

I’ve got a version of “This is England” on Dutch 7” that never was repeated

Is there any specific reason why a band with six albums on the same label has such a confused discography?

Two reasons - CBS in the U.S. fucking around with their debut, and the fact that they released so many non-LP cuts (45's, EP's, etc.)

The same thing happened with their peers (see Elvis Costello), and even trying to simplify things with a compilation gets messed up because inevitably the U.S. label will fuck with the compilation due to the original tracklist including stuff they put on the American versions of certain albums (and excluding the stuff they dropped).

Are there any songs from 1977-1985 that never came out on CD, or are currently not available or anthologized?

Nah, their last big release made sure of that too - it was a box set meant to be the very last word on Clash releases. (As promised, I don't think Mick Jones has touched any part of their catalog since.)

Is that Sound System or something else?

Correct, Sound System.

Seems to have everything but The Clash SqueezeCut the Crap.

HAH, true, but that's like fake Clash. "This Is England" is great, but fuck everything else on it.

I don't why "This is England" is considered a standout. That cast-o'-thousands chorus is corny as hell. I mean, the album is a dud, but I actually appreciate the cluttered mashups of "Dictator" and "Fingerpoppin'" as a continuation of where Combat Rock was headed.

I liked "Dirty Punk" as well. The album is bad, but not "cast this out of the canon" bad.

Cut The Crap is...as good as any other Clash album, and better than some. Their whole discography is a goddamn mess, and as a strip-it-to-the-bone, no-pop-moves record it more than does the job. The guitar sound is ugly as shit, but in a really interesting way, and when you combine that with the Big Black-ish drum machine, the random stabs of ultra-80s synth, and the gang vocals, Strummer was actually really onto something. People who don't like it are too attached to the mythology of four dudes in a room makin' rock 'n' roll.

IIRC, I think Bernie Rhodes was the one who dubbed in the chorus without Strummer's approval. It's probably better without it, but I'm okay with it - it's an anthem, and it does feel like a stadium full of soccer fans singing it. (Not a bad song for soccer fans to sing in unison, if that ever happens.)

Sound System doesn't include everything, it's missing 2 tracks from the This Is Radio Clash 12" for a start.

i had never really been bothered to check before as my wife was the clash fan in this house.
but it turns out that my cd of the debut is the US tracklisting.
is that the standard edition these days, or, if i see it again will it be more likely to be the UK tracklisting ?

Looks like since 2002 CD reissues have been the UK version

I hadn't listened to the first album in ages until this revive. Hit the spot. It's remarkable how much the band benefits from better production. On the US version, "I Fought the Law" just pops right out for that reason.

Mark - the US version has the band name in the top right (and reddish), the proper version has the band name in the lower right, and more orange.

can't rely on that unfortunately:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Clash-The-Clash/release/16033574

Mark did ask "these days," ie in the 21 years since the remasters, not "if I'm buying loose CDs taken from mysterious European box sets and flogged individually second-hand"

iirc Mark likes to buy CDs from charity shops which means it's not unlikely he'd encounter something like that. there's more than just that one, also found a UK track list with a US cover from 2012

Sound System doesn't include everything, it's missing 2 tracks from the This Is Radio Clash 12" for a start.

Ah, my mistake. Truth be told I never bought it - I know Mick Jones supervised the mastering very closely, but he still had the whole thing crushed with additional compression (a fucking bane on modern digital masterings - I wish people would stop doing that for physical releases). I stuck with the original CD releases, but FWIW, here's what's missing that has been issued on CD elsewhere:

1. Justice Tonight/Kick it Over (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
2. Mustapha Dance (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
3. Robber Dub (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
4. Listen (Full version) (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
5. Radio One (from "Hitsville UK" 7" B-Side, available on Singles Box Set)
6. Radio Five (From "This Is Radio Clash" 12" B-Side, available on Singles Box Set)
7. Outcast Broadcast (From "This Is Radio Clash" 12" B-Side, available on Singles Box Set)
8. Janie Jones (Demo) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)
9. Career Opportunities (Demo) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)
10. One Emotion (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
11. Every Little Bit Hurts (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
12. Red Angel Dragnet (Edited Version) (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
13. Ghetto Defendant (Edited Version) (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
14. English Civil War (Live) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)
15. I Fought The Law (Live) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)

Also the version of "Clash City Rockers" included in the box set is the slower "correct speed" version. As detailed elsewhere, their manager thought it would help to speed up the record when it was originally released, even though Mick and Paul sounded like chipmunks on the backing vocals. The original 7" is sped up and many CD masterings kept it that way, but quite a few CD's even before Sound System have it in the original speed when they went back to the first-generation master tape.

Looks like since 2002 CD reissues have been the UK version

I remember when the Clash's CD catalog was remastered in 1999 (IIRC they took longer to appear in the U.S. and weren't released here until the following year), they advertised (at least in the US) that it was the first time the UK version would be available on CD anywhere. More accurately, if you were in the UK or US, it would be the first time both versions would be in-print on CD there at the same time. However, in the UK, the previous CD was the UK version, and in the US, their previous CD's were always the US version.

I still prefer the UK version. I love the stuff they added to the US version, but it sounds too much like they shoehorned in stuff from later sessions - it's recorded better, they had a different (and better) drummer. It feels less cohesive and more patchwork, so it plays more like a compilation which I guess it really is.

can't rely on that unfortunately

Much more succinct - thanks bovarism. This is what I have, and it's a great sounding CD, supposedly from the original master tape. No additional compression, no trebly-happy EQ, perfect if you want to crank it up.

The US edition of the debut >>>>>>>>>>>>> UK

However, in the UK, the previous CD was the UK version, and in the US, their previous CD's were always the US version.

I don't think this is right, I have the US edition on CD, which I bought in the UK in the late 90s, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't an import, although Discogs just lists it as "Europe".

Mark - the US version has the band name in the top right (and reddish), the proper version has the band name in the lower right, and more orange.

― bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Thursday, August 5, 2021 3:00 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

can't rely on that unfortunately:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Clash-The-Clash/release/16033574

actually, that's the cd edition i have.
will keep eye out in the charity shop bins for UK version from hereon though.

When they remastered and reissued them all back in the late '90s or whenever, they definitely re-released both the US and UK versions in the US.

indeed -- I own both.

When they remastered and reissued them all back in the late '90s or whenever, they definitely re-released both the US and UK versions in the US.

Yes, that's what I was referring to, but those came out in 2000 in the U.S. They were issued in 1999 elsewhere, so they may have been imported until they were formally released in the U.S. the following year.

I don't think this is right, I have the US edition on CD, which I bought in the UK in the late 90s, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't an import, although Discogs just lists it as "Europe".

I didn't want to confuse things further because it's really complicated, but to go into greater detail, both the US and UK version had been available on CD in the UK prior to the 1999 remastering campaign. I even remember thinking the UK version had never been issued on CD in the UK. But several years later I found out about the stock UK version that pre-dates the 1999 remaster. It looks like this:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8JE6nroVJG4/YGcmCmtvVzI/AAAAAAAABME/l4ltideIyR8DQWYCMbi9WRvbgKjo4Lh9wCLcBGAsYHQ/s0/IMG_20210402_1505214%257E2.jpg

ta all - I remember the orange-bottom red-top thing being codified with the 1999 remasters (which are good!). iirc they also say "remastered by Bill Price" or "Mick Jones and Bill Price" on the back, if mark's flipping.

(Mick did remaster them that round, but he might not have taken a credit.)

Two more "missing" tracks are "Do It Now" and "Sex Mad Roar" which are on cd in the singles box set, and nowhere else.

I know that's into "Clash II" territory, but as "Cut the Crap" is on cd, thought I'd mention.

Oh, and "Pouring Rain" on the Joe Strummer "The future is unwritten" but

I actually like all the songs on the This Is England single. But I've still never listened to Cut The Crap.

i never cared for english pop punk but dont rob the cash box and lydon calling are ok and didnt they do a rap song and a reggae song?!

This made me laugh:

"Mick Jones has joked that they were the kind of band that would record thirty songs and release thirty-one."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-clash-think-inside-the-box+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

https://trouserpress.com/letsagetabitarockin/

That's incredible.

Cool. Haven't really read it myself yet /pvmic.

that looks amazing, thanks. just skimmed a bit for now.

yeah it's a great read.

Bloody good, that. Seemed a little soft at first, but bears down more and more on particulars of the sound and how it got that way. I remember (in a Trouser Press ad) a 101ers LP or EP[, Elgin Avenue Breakdown w some of the songs mentioned here; an expanded reissue came out after Strummer died, but I never heard either version. Although I think there may have been excerpts in Julian Temple's good Strummer doc, The Future Is Unwritten.

yep it was released in 1981

https://www.discogs.com/The-101ers-Elgin-Avenue-Breakdown/master/193698

Post today (Saturday) by Glen Matlock.

Cool!

Mick's been keeping a very low profile for quite a while now.

?

Except for the Combat Rock reissue, I didn't think Mick had been very active, but apparently he's popped up in a few places in the past few years (recording with the Avalanches in 2020, the Flaming Lips in 2019, etc.) I think he just took a break after producing Kitty, Daisy & Lewis in 2014 - he did a ton of stuff in the first half of the '10s, so he probably needed it.

I just came across a book about The Clash in America that I hadn’t know about but feel like I will have to read right now.

What's the name?

I just learned that Elvis Costello's This Year's Model master tape had Costello and Mick Jones of The Clash playing tandem rhythm guitar on a coda to “Pump It Up,” that got edited out of the album release (but can now be be heard on Costello's Spanish Model version of the album with the guest vocalists ) and that Mick Jones played on the Costello song "Big Tears"

I knew the latter fact but not the former.

Stealing All Transmissions: A Secret History of The Clash, by Randal Doane.

https://artsfuse.org/117329/fuse-book-review-stealing-all-transmissions-how-the-clash-conquered-america/

Thanks---btw did I mention my Voice coverage of The Sandinista! Project, archived here w link to more TSP comments on my Nashville Scene ballot: https://myvil.blogspot.com/2016/06/clash-stash-actually-cuts-crap.html
Also, did yall see this?

The new Joe Strummer boxset, Joe Strummer 002: The Mescaleros Years, will be released on September 16th, 2022, as part of the celebrations honouring Joe’s 70th birthday year. The first-ever comprehensive collection highlighting Joe’s work with his post-Clash band, The Mescaleros, the collection includes remastered editions of all three of the band’s studio albums, plus 15 rare and unreleased tracks spanning the first demos Joe wrote for the Mescaleros, and outtakes of several tracks of Joe’s final recordings with the band...

Cool.

That book starts off talking about this, of course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyuGLHnZhOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDDZgEHaczA

toss up whether to put it here or on the kevin ayers thread.

Wow, guess I have to click to see.

Viz. Costello thing: yes! That Spanish This Year Model is super great. You also get to hear how No Action and I Don't Want to Go to Chelsea were recorded basically as one track. I was fearful of that project but it's so good. Now if we could only get the real Rat Patrol (which I know we won't).

Somewhere in the world there’s probably a kid named Topher Headon and neither he nor his parents have a clue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6onlQ2Kr-Vc