is rock REALLY dead? what makes it 'dead'?

So whatever Lenny says, everyone knows it's true.

That's what it comes down to, really. Some would argue that it isn't realy important at all in the grand scheme of things, and is merely treading water (see: that "Loveless is the death knell of rock" thread).

But even if everyone agrees on Lenny's word, he still listens to what his Mama Says.

shame he kept on rehashing old rock after he made that song in 1995. didnt really stand by his actions.

You make a good point, but I don't think Rock's detractors are saying that it has to be constantly innovative and growing and changing. BUT, if we hold it to be true that Loveless was the last really innovative thing to come of out 'rock,' than what is that.. 14 years without anything 'new'?

The Doodlebops are bringin' it back, Man. BRINGIN' IT BACK!!!

It all just boils down to marketing demographics. People say rock is "dead" whenever there's a dip in the youth market's interest in it. In terms of aesthetics, no art form ever truly "dies" unless people stop practicing it altogether. Which is obviously not the case with rock n roll. Whether anything "new" is happening in rock n roll is entirely a matter of perspective and personal taste. (I don't buy this "Loveless was the last time rock n roll produced anything innovative" bullshit. define "innovative")

some buncha clowns really SHOULD do this -- this could be this decade's dread zeppelin!!

They say the heart of rock and roll is still beating
And from what I’ve seen I believe ’em
Now the old boy may be barely breathing
But the heart of rock and roll is still beating

La, hollywood, and the sunset strip
Is something everyone should see
Neon lights and the pretty pretty girls
All dressed so scantily
When they play their music
That hard rock music
They like it with a lot of flash
But it’s still that same old back beat rhythm
That really kicks ’em in the

They say the heart of rock and roll is still beating
And from what I’ve seen I believe ’em
Now the old boy may be barely breathing
But the heart of rock and roll is still beating

Dc, san antone and the liberty town, boston and baton rouge
Tulsa, austin, oklahoma city, seattle, san francisco, too
Everywhere there’s music, real live music, bands with a million styles
But it’s still that some old rock and roll music
That really drives ’em wild

They say the heart of rock and roll is still beating
And from what I’ve seen I believe ’em
Now the old boy may be barely breathing
But the heart of rock and roll is still beating

I'm sure these guys have made some advances since Loveless?

is it doing this though?!

Yes.

what makes it 'dead'?

The fact that nobody's making good rock songs anymore!!

What, you actually expect me to ENJOY that new System of a Down album???

um sure man, like its abosorbed any of those things and made them great combined. rock hasnt really done anything strikingly different/new/radical en masse since post punk, arguably.

Nu-metal WAS new, Shaky's right....whether it was good outside of a few singles is vry debateable, but was new.

x-post

But anyway, when people say "innovative" they're usually just refering to new instrumentation. Real innovation comes in much more subtle forms, IMHO.

rock is now a more a matter of sublte, small ingenuity, rather than probably large scale "revolutions"...that time might be passed....although you could argue it always was! I mean, how innovative and "new" really was punk.....and, shaky's right, post-punk was more of a matter of assimilating these various influences, just like nu-metal...just like almost every musical movement ever, really....it's always babysteps rather than world-changing epic shakeups.....

i mean, has there been a big revolution in american hip hop that i've missed?

Since Shakey was OTM again, I thought I'd share this personal anecdote (that can later be laughed at on multiple boards)...

I used to spend a lot of time at this Jazz coffeehouse in Jax FL circa 1993, and I befriended all the rock dudes who were in the Jazz program at UNF.

Eventually, we'd vaguely talk about forming a band over pre-bedtime breakfasts. They all wanted to do what they called "heavy groove". I had no idea what specifically that was, but they cited Rage Agianst..., of course. They all knew I had a little rap career a few years prior - after a while they'd look to me and say "you know, it'd be cool if you rap on it." I'd laugh it off and say "no one wants to hear rapping on Rock music...oh, wait, Rage. Nevermind."

I always thought they were being half assed and somewhat joking. I never flat out said no, but it was pretty clear I wan't into the idea.

Eventually, the coffehouse closed down and I went my way, never taking the idea of their band serious. I bumped into one of the guys about a year later and he said "hey, we actually decided to have someone rap over our band since you weren't so into it. He's a tattoo guy named Fred."

Ladies and gentlemen, Limp Bizkit.

Specifically, Emu's SP12 in 1985, The Ultimate Beats and Breks comp in 1986, and Emu's SP1200 in 1988 caused the revolution.

Eric B, Marley Marl, and The Bomb Squad were the first to pursue those tools effectivly. Dre openly admits he switched from his SP12 hosted DMX + 808 beats to ripping off The Bomb Squad once PE hit.

-- Shakey Mo Collier (audiobo...), July 25th, 2005.

dude, you forgot to include mosh metal (pantera, machine head, biohazard, etc.) in that equation! thats like pizza with out sauce!

"when i was a young homeless bohemian in the streets of Vienna, i knew this struggling painter. he was a bit of a ranter with questionable views on things, but usually rather quiet. no one payed him much attention. later i heard he had left for munich, and the war broke out soon after. it wasn't until quite some time after the war i starting hearing about him again..."

A jazz coffeehouse?

The heavier stuff perhaps, but stripped down it all sounds like Black Sabbath or The Stooges so... RIP ?

yeah, but there are clear precendents to the synth-based/digitally composed stuff too....Afrika Bambaataa, Arthur Baker, Robie, etc.....Miami bass....Sir Mix-A-Lot (who always used mostly synths hardly any sampling on Swass and Seminar, very techno oriented)...and Lil Jon seems to be using alot of synth sounds and stuff that seem taken out of earlier techno....I guess what I'm saying is that stuff is as rooted in the past as, say And You Will Know Us By The Trail of Dead or Mars Volta is....(or whatever band really)

also, I'm glad this thread exists if only for PappaWheelie's Limp story. Wow wow wow.

There's several threads on this, but nothing active in the past five years, interestingly. Yet it still seems this is a popular topic in the media. This past month Slash wrote a piece for NME explaining why he went pop for his solo album, collaborating with Fergie.

I usually hate talking about the state of rock music, because there's nothing positive to say about it. The whole vibe of new, exciting hard rock bands seems non-existent right now. I always say that the heavy metal spirit is alive and well and holding its own, but that broader rock'n'roll thing of bands like AC/DC or Guns N'Roses seems pretty slim. The rock'n'roll spirit is extremely diminished.

He goes on to talk about how pop music is bigger than ever and he's learned to embrace it. Yet ironically he justified his admiration for Fergie based on the fact that she started as a rock singer, shared a similar past with sex, drugs and jail, and is now "doing a solo rock record." Sort of contradictory, Slash. But he brings up an interesting point in differentiating rock from metal.

I think it is true that the metal subculture enjoys a consistently loyal, steady following, even if sales of most extreme metal are unspectacular. Non-metal rock bands seem more subject to commercial whims and trends, with the possible exception of White Stripes and QOTSA, and all the side projects associated with White and Homme, that seem to maintain a consistent audience.

I just wonder why rock music is subject to so many eager declarations of its death, dating back all the way to the 50s when Buddy Holly died and Elvis was drafted. It can be easily argued that nearly all genres of music have reached their creative and commercial peaks in the past, from classical, opera, gospel, folk, bluegrass, blues, country, jazz, disco, techno, hip-hop, etc. Yet there isn't nearly as many enthusiastic declarations of their deaths.

A lot of explanations are available. One that comes to mind is that rock was a major cultural and commercial force from the late 50s through the 80s, but its impact became diluted from the constantly growing popularity of other genres such as dance music, hip-hop, pop, commercial resurgence of country, or at least country-pop, American-idol style showtunes, etc.

On the other hand, kids have been rediscovering rock via games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band, realizing that rock can be a lot more fun than watching amateur wanna-be Vegas performers warbling covers of mostly cheesy songs karaoke style.

I guess there aren't any new rock bands selling more than a million albums these days, though I haven't paid much attention for a while. But sales figures are becoming less and less relevant. Possibly major stadium tours are suffering, mainly because they refuse to lower ticket prices during a major recession. But I'm finding more than ever hard rock and metal shows to be the most vital live entertainment of all the genres I listen to. And most of the ones touring small and medium venues are consistently selling out. It seems to me that smaller bands can much more easily make money on the road than they could in the 80s and 90s, when the likes of, say, the Butthole Surfers were literally starving so that they could afford gas money to get to the next gig. Maybe the chances of winning the rock 'n' roll lottery and becoming millionaires is diminished, but I think it's more easily a sustainable career for more bands than ever.

http://stereogum.com/img/tapes_n_tapes-hang_them_all.jpg

guess there aren't any new rock bands selling more than a million albums these days, though I haven't paid much attention for a while. But sales figures are becoming less and less relevant. Possibly major stadium tours are suffering, mainly because they refuse to lower ticket prices during a major recession. But I'm finding more than ever hard rock and metal shows to be the most vital live entertainment of all the genres I listen to. And most of the ones touring small and medium venues are consistently selling out. It seems to me that smaller bands can much more easily make money on the road than they could in the 80s and 90s, when the likes of, say, the Butthole Surfers were literally starving so that they could afford gas money to get to the next gig. Maybe the chances of winning the rock 'n' roll lottery and becoming millionaires is diminished, but I think it's more easily a sustainable career for more bands than ever.

i assume slash means a dearth of rebellious, testosterone-heavy hard-ish rock. but someone's always bemoaning the "death of rock." this was a popular topic in around 1991, just before nevermind.

Paul Weller claimed rock is dead when he formed the style council in the early 80s.
He's been making rock music again since the early 90s..

On the other hand, kids have been rediscovering rock via games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band, realizing that rock can be a lot more fun than watching amateur wanna-be Vegas performers warbling covers of mostly cheesy songs karaoke style.

i take it you've never seen anyone sing on rock band b4

Punk, on the other hand...

fwiw rock will never die, it will live on like tithonus for all eternity wishing for death 2 come

yeah, punk's dead. it died in the late 70s, really (maybe very early 80s), yielding to new wave.

WHO MURDERED PUNK ROCK?

disco

lol, no jury (today) would convict.

who killed disco?

we need a family tree type thing of genres of music killers!

fwiw rockdisco will never die, it will live on like tithonus for all eternity wishing for death 2 come

the 80s and 90s, when the likes of, say, the Butthole Surfers were literally starving so that they could afford gas money to get to the next gig selling out four-figure capacity venues across the world and being one of the most notorious bunch of mercenaries in rock music

http://pitchfork-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/media/p2k/decade-headers/haag-centered.gif

the death of rock has been brought to us by haagen-dazs?

damn you, haagen-dazs.

thank you, haagen-dazs

i always liked ben & jerry's better. cold stone creameries, even.

yeah, punk's dead. it died in the late 70s, really (maybe very early 80s), yielding to new wave

false: dead or irrelevant, punk existed side by side with new wave - talking heads, devo, gary numan

yeah, punk's dead.

Rolling punk / non-indie underground thread 2010

wait, i'm not sure what you're saying. do you mean that new wave began during punk's late-70s heyday or that punk lasted into new wave's early 80s heyday?

either way, i'm probably not really disagreeing. there has been punk music made continuously since it arose as a genre, but it's moment of cultural significance really began and ended in the late 70s (that's been my impression, anyway).

now i see what you're saying and agree w/r/t significance
"new wave" is such a vague and meaningless term to me; if pressed i'd say it "began" with roxy music as much as anywhere.

http://dmhamby2.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/green-day.jpg

lol, green day doesn't help prove punk is alive.

http://www.fascinationst.com/productImages/rock_is_dead_O_LG.jpg

ksh on fire in this thread, I think each of his first three posts (Tapes N Tapes, Haagen-Dazs, punk thread link) have made me lol irl.

there has been punk music made continuously since it arose as a genre, but its moment of cultural significance really began and ended in the late 70s (that's been my impression, anyway).

By "moment of cultural significance" you mean "window during which journalists actively boosted the music in hopes it would prove lucrative to do so," right? Because punk is culturally significant as long as it inspires people to make more punk. And that's going on all around you, every day.

sure that's true, as far as it goes. but people still make new jitterbug music, too, and you wouldn't say jitterbug music has the kind of cultural significance today that it had in the 20s.

you're certainly right, tho, that punk music is still made today. i misspoke to suggest otherwise.

It has great significance to the people making it and listening to it, is my point. Who are you to suggest their interests are irrelevant? The mere fact that the critical class, with its magpie-like attention span, has sniffed and moved on from [pick a genre] does not bring that genre to a screeching halt. "Oh, the critics aren't paying attention anymore...might as well unplug and give it up, fellas."

https://www.edulink.networcs.net/sites/teachlearn/science/Image%20Library/skeleton_dancing_hw.gif

you're certainly right, tho, that punk music is still made today. i misspoke to suggest otherwise.

― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, June 6, 2010 7:03 PM (6 minutes ago)

i dunno, my feeling is that there are two different meanings for Punk Music, one is kindof a movement type things where it groups a lot of stuff from a partic period under the same umbrella due to a partic. attitude more than musical affinity (i mean: patti smith/television/blondie/clash/sex pistols) which had its own post-histories w/ hardcore, new wave, but also "punk" which is punk as a codified set of signifiers that mark out a partic. genre that depends on a particular ahistorical definition of orig. punk?

also ksh i am confused, i thought you came here to earnestly post baout wilco r whatevs but now that you have cashed in the things u like for lol ilx cred what are you actually getting out of dialed in meme-trigger posts

otm

Who are you to suggest their interests are irrelevant?

that wasn't my intent. i think it's fair to assume, however, that people making punk music today recognize that -- for whatever reason -- the genre doesn't occupy the same level of prominence in the public's mind as it did in the late 70s.

also ksh i am confused, i thought you came here to earnestly post baout wilco r whatevs but now that you have cashed in the things u like for lol ilx cred what are you actually getting out of dialed in meme-trigger posts

― plax (ico), Sunday, June 6, 2010 3:16 PM (4 minutes ago)

Rolling Metal Thread 2010

i think it's fair to assume, however, that people making punk music today recognize that -- for whatever reason -- the genre doesn't occupy the same level of prominence in the public's mind as it did in the late 70s.

Define "the public." I think you're confusing critics and music bloggers with the broader population, a common mistake.

In the 1970s, "the public" (think: your parents and grandparents) knew about punk because there was something about it on the news, maybe, describing it as a scary new musical trend imported from England. In the 2000s, "the public" (again, think: your parents and grandparents) knows about punk as the source of a Broadway musical.

punk as the source of a Broadway musical

punk ca. 1977 ~was~ all about diy spirit and kissing off bloated excess. a Broadway musical is pretty good example of "irrelevancy", imo. not calling the people playing and listening irrelevant, but the concept (caveat: there are always exceptions to blanket generalizations)

punk ca. 1977 ~was~ all about diy spirit and kissing off bloated excess

God bless you for believing this in 2010

hm. i will have to think about that, actually. i suppose you can say that an opportunistic and fickle press is the only thing that separates the punk scene in the late 70s from the punk scene today, but i think that's putting too much emphasis on the role of the press.

God bless you for believing this in 2010

yeah, really.

It's that time of year again for the punk wars discussion innit?

It can be easily argued that nearly all genres of music have reached their creative and commercial peaks in the past, from classical, opera, gospel, folk, bluegrass, blues, country, jazz, disco, techno, hip-hop, etc. Yet there isn't nearly as many enthusiastic declarations of their deaths.

THE WHIRLWIND OF BEEF I INHALE IT

http://diggin88nine.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/nashiphopisdead.jpg

I really hope you are all waiting for your laundry to dry or something along those lines.

^^^ waiting for dryer

have one load in the wash and the other in dryer right now, no lie

also: playing w/ Twitter

also ksh i am confused, i thought you came here to earnestly post baout wilco r whatevs but now that you have cashed in the things u like for lol ilx cred what are you actually getting out of dialed in meme-trigger posts

― plax (ico), Sunday, June 6, 2010 3:16 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark

making ilxor "lol irl" iirc?

yeah but

very good, ksh. you made my oblique reference not oblique anymore.

http://www.tiltstudioinc.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/p10100461.jpg

is there any partic reason y that was a picture also?

Excelsior syndrome.

Green Day died in 2001.

couldn't defend themselves, even w/ twenty-one guns u_u

Japandroids are keeping rock alive, for me at least.

is their collection of early EPs worth getting?

i like it better than last year's album, way more energetic and more of a post-hardcore sound

sorta kinda in that vein, the last No Age EP was great

yeah, i agree with that. no age seems like they'll mature into a noisy, catchy, shoegaze-y act.

two good examples of how rock isn't dead, btw, along with plenty of other acts.

they were pretty fun live when i saw them open for Liars in 2008(?) iirc

i was thinking about this recently, some dad came into the deli i work at, where they put on the top 40 soft rock station, and was like "man what happened to all the real bands?" i tried to console him, but like all the rock stuff i listen to is probably too noisy and weird and loud for a lot of older dudes. like this guy would love that purling hiss record if it wasn't all blown out, or maybe even mclusky or fotl if they weren't so loud. i guess he would like black mountain, but i don't even really love black mountain, partly because they're not really pushing it.

my gut instinct reaction was along the lines of fuck outta here boring old rockist fart, but would it be that hard for some band to make good and stylistically innovative rock music without making it inaccessible or alienating to more trad rock dudes? isn't that a worthwhile endeavour? is it even possible?

Spoon isn't really "innovative," but they're definitely a really accessible, good band that a dude like that might like

lol nah

wilco!

that's for kingshighway.

kidsmokehighway ;-)

original name was a Wilco reference \(^O^)/

Them Crooked Vultures

the raveonettes.

the raveonettes: more innovative than muse

just a smidge.

i was thinking about this recently, some dad came into the deli i work at, where they put on the top 40 soft rock station, and was like "man what happened to all the real bands?"

He never heard Coldplay?

Coldplay certainly did their best to kill rock.

He never heard Coldplay?

― Tied Up In Geir (Geir Hongro), Sunday, June 6, 2010 5:40 PM (12 minutes ago)

hahahahahaha, priceless

Coldplay certainly did their best to kill rock.

and they'll keep trying, bless their little hearts.

at worst, Coldplay is guilty of necrophilia ... not murder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlOyl8m5X00

daniel's argument about punk's diminished significance makes a lot of sense to me, regardless of the longevity of punk music & culture. i say this cuz punk, circa 76-78 was paradoxically both reactionary and radical. reactionary in that many of the most celebrated, most iconic and best remembered 1st gen punk bands (ramones, pistols, clash, birdman, etc.) were playing a music that owed a huge debt to the past. punk presented itself as a kind of dystopian futurism, but it tended to speak in the nearly antique language of rock's infancy. in this sense, it perhaps really was an early indication of the eventual death/irrelevance of rock, in that it reached backward rather than forward, rock consuming rather than recreating itself. perhaps... and radical in that punk predicated its validity on argument against - against complacency, against decency, against boring old farts and middle-class values, against hippies, against giving a shit, against not giving a shit, etc. punk wanted to shock, even to destroy, and that which shocks necessarily has a short shelf life. the surrounding culture adapts to the disruption, normalizing what once seemed outrageous, neutralizing the oppositional agent's ability to destabilize. as a result, any action that acquires its significance from its supposed outrageousness will necessarily become less meaningful over time. the music is still the music, and on that level, it's as valid as ever, but as force in the culture, punk seems to have been thoroughly defanged, made to seem rather dull. i say this as a fan.

was at a local "punk rock flea market" yesterday, and thinking about such things. a lot of nice crafts for sale, thrift store junk and some cool records, cool people in cool clothes with coolly clothed babies in punk rock strollers. and there was a good deal of interesting conversation and DIY enthusiasm and political commitment, but it also all seemed rather ossified. the memory of something interesting rather than anything interesting or active in itself. i dunno, i mean, punk scenes continue to attract engaged, creative, compassionate and intelligent people, many of whom do great work, both within the scene and without. i won't write that off, but in a broad sense, punk sort of seems like civil war reenactment at this point, not far removed from dressing up in a zoot suit to go see brian setzer or the squirrel nut zippers. and that kind of hermetic, behind-the-glass preservation of a bygone cultural moment does seem a kind of death to me.

draw some line here between what punk was (dead thing) and what people are still doing with punk ideas and aesthetics in a less formally conservative manner (potentially living thing)...

one indication of the slow (real) death of rock, is the erosion of rock's ability to define our understanding of ostensibly non-rock music. i.e., the death of rock is a product of the death of rockism, though there's a back and forth chick/egg thing going on there. in the 70s and 80s, and to some extent even in the 90s, rock culture and rock-centric criticism maintained rock's primacy by constructing all american music in relation to rock. pop, jazz, blues, dance music, avant-garde art music, etc., were described and understood by many only in terms of how they fit into rock culture and history, rock at times seeming indistinguishable from music in general. this is no longer the case.

rock's first big failure to assimilate, colonize & regurgitate was rap. it's telling that rap has assimilated rock much more effectively and elegantly than vice-versa. in the hip-hop era, perhaps coincidentally, it's become impossible to (pretend to) understand all music by understanding rock.

rock is fun. still fun. its just one form of creativity. its fun to get together with people and listen to punk or rock or punk rock. it changes worlds in smaller more local ways. i dunno, i've heard a lot of great rock/punk/noise/whatever in the last year and it was just a good time. local people and non-local people entertaining each other. getting together. putting on a show. no big deal, maybe, but big deals are overrated. met a lot of great people. and i'm, like, way old.

metal's doing pretty well too

Big Kids in my basement! yeah! they rule. good times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36hv6r0TYHk

it's all fun, yes -- i agree. but rock has become much more hermitic this past decade than it was even during the 1990s. i know, i'm turning into an old fart, and what i'm saying isn't profound -- but nowadays, it's not that much different than being a fan of jazz.

but rock is still everywhere in a way that jazz isn't. and more open to novices and kids in a way that jazz isn't.

jazz has been around (and been "dead") a lot longer tho. maybe rock now is more = to jazz in the 70s. agree though that it doesn't seem likely to become totally frozen in amber any time soon. agree, too, with yr previous post - i still go to tons of rock/punk/metal shows, buy records, even make rock music for fun. within the context of my own life, it's doing just fine.

rock has become much more hermetic this past decade than it was even during the 1990s

Once again, the problem is not with rock, it's with the people who are convinced (or convincing themselves) rock is dead. It's kinda like people who complain about what's on the radio. "How dare you spoon-feed me this crap! I insist that you spoon-feed me a higher quality of crap!"

i mean, i DO agree that as far as major label big name kinda rock goes this is a low point in, um, history. i've started threads about it and talked about it on the expiry thread, but, you know, fuck it, things change. the world changes. there is SO MUCH friggin' great music out there in the world, it seems petty of me to wish that it was the 70's again or something. its always the 70's in my head anyway.

i'm listening to rose tattoo right now and if there is a current hard rock band out there as great as rose tattoo was, i have yet to hear them. but that's okay. maybe next year there will be! who knows what will happen?

i thought led zepplin and/or black sabbath were the gold standard for 70s hard rock, and i do sometimes wonder whether there are current bands that compare favorably with the best elements of those two acts. but yeah, maybe next year (if they're not already out there, making music now)!

and, to be clear, i'm by no means a huge led zepplin fan. but when i think of those two acts, i remember my friends' stoner/zealot-like praise (e.g., "the musicianship, man! they're so awesome. none of your sh--y new bands rock like that, dude.").

my new bands, at the time, were r.e.m., the smiths and the cure, among others.

i remember bringing the album Love home by The Cult and my brother thought it sounded like led zeppelin. but not in a good way. little did he know they would turn into his favorite band ac/dc.

i actually got a little of the led zepplin guitar-sound vibe from that last dirty projectors disc, but there's little resemblance to the acts beyond that (dirty projectors don't sing about orcs often enough).

Bitte Orc

i don't know what to think when i see a band like mgmt on saturday nite live. they really did make me feel old. i had no idea what the hell they were doing.

neither do they

control yourself

take only what you need from me

i had the same reaction when i saw the talking heads on snl when i was a kid. woah, what is this? but that was in a good way. tina kinda freaked me out though. i thought she must be one of those new york "junkies".

yeah, early talking heads music sounded like it floated in from another planet. in a way, that band is a decent point-of-comparison to a lot of newer indie bands. a lean, jittery sound, rather than a thick, broad powerful sound.

i honestly couldn't grasp what mgmt was trying to do/achieve. which doesn't happen often, so, i dunno, maybe i should hear more? but i also thought it was kinda terrible, so, there you go...you can see the predicament i'm in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe4EK4HSPkI

^ That's MGMT's "Kids," which I like. It's from their first record. Joanna Newsom's in the video.

Uh, second record rather.

i'm not a mgmt fan, so i'm not the best person to comment. but i think a lot of people -- fans included -- feel the same way about the new album as you did about that performance (which is why my earlier comment was only half-sarcastic).

whereas, like, vampire weekend, they are easy to figure out and easy for me to like. cuz they are peppy like haircut 100 and i dig that kinda sound. i was a woodentops fan too. not that i would call them a "rock" band. pop rock. whatever. new wave. they are new and i don't hate them. it's a start. (just thinking of current popular stuff that is around...)

is it kinda like when the killers went from peppy new wave to weird U2 ballads or whatever they did? and people got confused. but people kept liking the killers, right? do people still like mgmt even though their new album is weird?

i grew up in the 80s. it's easy to draw lines between bands from that era and current bands, and consequently i find it easy to figure out and like a lot of current bands (like your haircut 100-to-vampire weekend comparison).

interesting, and yeah, the killers lost me when they moved from aping 80s new-wave to aping bar-band-type 70s springsteen.

best Killers stuff that i heard was the Hot Fuss singles

if they go back to the sound i remember on smile like you mean it, all will be forgiven.

Great song.

The concept of rock being alive or dead seems like such an arbitrary concept that has no relevance whatsoever to my musical life. OTOH I think musically for rock to be actually dead you would have to have the electric guitar & drum kit fall completely out of favor with all musicians.

or all of rock music to absolutely suck, which is definitely not currently the case

think daniel's right. the 1st mgmt album is very accessible & comprehensible. new one's more opaque. "brian eno" came off pretty well on SNL, though.

okay, so they were just doing the 80's thing before the new album. well, you can't do the 80's thing forever, i guess. (just watched that kids video. felt bad for little kid. song doesn't do much for me.)

:-)

mgmt should be boiled in oil for scaring an infant that way.

it's like i stepped into a gwar video, unwittingly.

I think the difference between the 1st and 2nd MGMT albums is often blown out of proportion. Aside from the dancey hits the 1st one is alot like the 2nd.

i checked out titus andronicus cuzza that thread and it was amazing how in one song (the video about new jersey from the new album) i could be reminded of ted leo, dropkick murphys, paul westerberg, bright eyes, lifter puller, and hold steady. all at the same time. was kinda hoping i would love them, so i would have a new love, but i don't think it happened.

wait wait! the hott chick in the kids video is JOANNA NEWSOME?

yeah, i see what people love about that titus andronicus band, but i don't share the enthusiasm (just yet, at least). i do like the kids song, tho.

video made me feel bad for the kid, too, but not in any kind of serious way. little kids get scared by lots of stuff, and mom/dad were likely right off camera, and i dunno, maybe the whole thing was cgi'd together in the 1st place. they are wizards nowadays. and "kids" is fantastic.

Aside from the dancey hits the 1st one is alot like the 2nd.

― Adam Bruneau

(i actually assume you're right about this being cgi'd together. at least i hope that's the case).

i could be reminded of ted leo...paul westerberg...lifter puller, and hold steady. all at the same time.

― scott seward

[cheated a bit by omitting murphys and bright eyes]

maybe the whispers of "bright eyes" are what kills the band for me.

currently rocking the fuck out to last year's Paramore -- rock is fine, thanks

jumping up & down and air guitaring and mouthing lyrics rules, btw

what do you think that whole tribal/campfire/singalong thing is about? its been happening for years. are the kids wanting to connect on some deeper folky level and thats their way of expressing togetherness? did it start with the polyphonic spree? or maybe flaming lips are to blame. you know, arcade fire, bright eyes, tht whole lift your voice up in song thing. of course i do like it better when it reminds me of oi! or the dropkick murphys and not so much like, um, the indie boy scout thing. (and when it works, believe me, i love it. i wish everyone had a song as great as the last film by kissing the pink in them, but sadly most don't. or for that matter, almost every rose tattoo song with its eminently singalongable group shout chorus. but, like i said, i'm an oi fan.)

(and needless to say i'm a huge melanie candles in the rain fan. and s folk fan! and a big folk metal fan where group chants are a way of life.)

flaming lips seem nothing like that to me, but i guess my current impression of them is from the yoshimi period.

it isn't an animal-collective/fleet foxes thing?

i like those two bands, btw.

what is the paramore to hear? cuz i tried listening to "misery business", but it made me not want to hear it very much.

i think its also where you see a desire for current rock to be "meaningful" and weighty and when its done right then yeah it can be dramatic and pretty, but too often its just shorthand for depth. or meaning. and a step away from a drum circle that i want to avoid.

for comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xB7Mw32ntk

yeah i meant more like soft bulletin and singing saw-era mercury rev. those guys have a lot to answer for.

and a step away from a drum circle that i want to avoid.

― scott seward

what is that band in the youtube clip? i kinda love that.

(and now stuff like akron/family and my morning jacket too maybe)

yeah i meant more like soft bulletin and singing saw-era mercury rev. those guys have a lot to answer for.

― scott seward

band is king tuff, song is sun medallion. love that shit.

yeah okay drumming with people is nice. but i just meant like the difference between a heavenly choir of voices snd people who can't drum too good drumming together. i'm sure the drummers are digging it, but i know what i'd rather HEAR.

what is the paramore to hear? cuz i tried listening to "misery business", but it made me not want to hear it very much.

― the other is a black gay gentleman from Los Angeles (contenderizer), Sunday, June 6, 2010 11:16 PM (10 minutes ago)

dude -- get their latest record, Brand New Eyes, immediately :-D

"misery business" is a classic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A63VwWz1ij0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH9A6tn_P6g

what do you think that whole tribal/campfire/singalong thing is about? its been happening for years. are the kids wanting to connect on some deeper folky level and thats their way of expressing togetherness?

I think it has to do with the Beat Happening, 80s & 90s DIY, early Beck, the Moldy Peaches, etc. Also it's another way to rebel and create in an idiom flooded by mass-produced and polished sound. Just in my local music scene in Atlanta there are lots of acoustic only shows, people playing ukelele, banjos, vocal-only compositions, playing under old train tunnels, etc. It's alot more exciting than going to the same 2/3 punk rock clubs every week!

I think popular folk music is some phantom that may have been killed by the creation of the music industry, but nonetheless is very powerful and ends up haunting every generation of musicians.

think popular folk music is some phantom that may have been killed by the creation of the music industry, but nonetheless is very powerful and ends up haunting every generation of musicians.

― Adam Bruneau

one indication of the slow (real) death of rock, is the erosion of rock's ability to define our understanding of ostensibly non-rock music. i.e., the death of rock is a product of the death of rockism, though there's a back and forth chick/egg thing going on there. in the 70s and 80s, and to some extent even in the 90s, rock culture and rock-centric criticism maintained rock's primacy by constructing all american music in relation to rock. pop, jazz, blues, dance music, avant-garde art music, etc., were described and understood by many only in terms of how they fit into rock culture and history, rock at times seeming indistinguishable from music in general. this is no longer the case.

rock's first big failure to assimilate, colonize & regurgitate was rap. it's telling that rap has assimilated rock much more effectively and elegantly than vice-versa. in the hip-hop era, perhaps coincidentally, it's become impossible to (pretend to) understand all music by understanding rock.

Hey.... Pssst! It isn't 1991 anymore. The world changed, and got back to rock again, whereas those "new" musical forms became irrelevant.

i honestly couldn't grasp what mgmt was trying to do/achieve

I'd say they are almost two different bands on those two albums of theirs. The first album didn't really work out, but I really like the prog/psych indie approach of the second one.

a lot of xp-s back re: punk - the backward look of punk - well, a lot of what went into the canon - that's something that Lydia Lunch will continually harp on - that punk was sped up Chuck Berry riffs. But then you have a band like Siouxsie and the Banshees, and at least from what I've read, when they started playing, they would just do a "cover" of "The Lord's Prayer" - whether it sounded like the version on "Join Hands" - I don't know.

No Wave did a lot more fucking up of the rock idiom, but it was never as well known.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziR2EaQOSjU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmfQAT3u7oo

Sorry but a lot of the examples posted earlier were just sad...

Xp re Butthole Surfers - I cited them because I recalled the chapter in Our Band Could Be Your Life when Gibby was literally weeping cuz he was so hungry. Po' Gibby. Perhaps it was earlier in their career like 83-85, before their indie salad days.

Who needs rock to be alive anyway? To be alive seems too vibrant and wholesome, loved by mothers, children, puppies, etc. I prefer the cold, clammy, creepy embrace of undead rock, like Iggy's writhing, rangy corpselike figure, Ozzy whispering foul, slurred nothings in your ear with breath that could knock out an elephant, you get the idea.

yeah, like what dubstep is for UK dance genres, except for rock. rockstep.

Who needs rock to be alive anyway?

I get a nice feeling from awesome new rock music.. and especially when there's an abundance of it at any given time, it feels like the world isn't so bad, and there's something right happening out there.. kind of a social commentary of sorts. When there's not as much awesome new rock, the world feels that much more empty.

rock music is fine everyone! seriously! you just have to look for it a little bit

Bon Iver killed indie rock

to be fair, it was a mercy killing.

there's so many records now, i bet even if stuff like indie rock or whatever seems lame if you dug enough you could find like 200 great records, just by little local bands

there's just so much of everything now

i agree w/ you 100%

not sure about the local bands thing tbh -- i don't know much about the music that's made 'round here -- but, I mean, there's more than enough good stuff coming out that if you're saying there isn't you're just not looking hard enough or in the right places

i saw that king tuff thing at the record store today. didn't know it was the dude from witch. didn't buy it, bought old records from 30 years ago instead.

i guess i just meant "local" in that there's tons of stuff made by bands that is hard to find or just pressed in less than 500 or 1000 quantities

true

xp Okay, well maybe I'm just annoyed that it's become more difficult to locate.. Obviously there's always gonna be cool rock if you search hard enough.

searching is fun, dude

or, can be

i saw that king tuff thing at the record store today. didn't know it was the dude from witch. didn't buy it, bought old records from 30 years ago instead.

― scott seward

it is the dude from witch (kyle thomas), and that first witch album is likewise awesome. totally worth checking out king tuff if you're at all curious, tho "sun medallion" is clearly the hit. dude's currently recording as happy birthday for sub pop, but i haven't been too into the happy birthday tracks i've heard. more into some ethereal, ariel pink type amalgam of 70s & 80s pop. prefer king tuff's stoner glam thing.

Searching is frustrating when it's taking forever to find something... where the fuck are my keys...

i want the happy birthday people to play at my store. they came in last week and they are all super-nice. so are the witch dudes. witch, king tuff, and happy birthday all being local bands where i am.

just listened to the witch debut, for the 1st time in quite a while. such a great album. weird how all the KT projects of the last four years are all so clearly separate from one another. feathers = psychedelic folk, witch = doom w/ epic solos, happy birthday = laid back glam w/ compact solos, happy birthday = ??? (not sure yet, but seem to be a weirdo pop outfit). the variety is interesting, and probably due to different collaborators and different times, but i wonder why isn't more of a sense of accretion. like king tuff wouldn't have been hurt by a few slow & low moments a la witch.

so you located in vermont, scott? always wondered what your store might be...

i'm in greenfield, mass. 20 minutes from brattleboro where witch are and mv & ee and big kids and dred foole and lots of other nice people. i'm so close to brattleboro and northampton and amherst that i just consider them a part of where i live. all three towns are 20 minutes from me in different directions.

just chiming in to say that the mgmt "kids" video works way better w/rob zombie "dragula" playing

As do most other things in life.

there's so many records now, i bet even if stuff like indie rock or whatever seems lame if you dug enough you could find like 200 great records, just by little local bands

I agree w this. In my town for at least 5 years or so there have been around a dozen or two really solid punk/garage/power pop bands playing shows constantly, putting out 7" and stuff all the time. I just got real bored and tired of it, is all.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jan/10/rock-n-roll-read-last-rites

"It is the end of the rock era. It's over, in the same way the jazz era is over," declared the veteran DJ and "professor of pop" Paul Gambaccini.

That article is such a bundle of received wisdom and knackered old tropes it barely deserves comment.

and yet:

Tony Wadsworth, chairman of the BPI, the record industry body. "We are seeing genres falling in place with formats. Rock isn't dead if you look at album sales."

Article summarised.

The other two rock songs to make it into the top 100 of the year were Train by Soul Sister and Dog Days are Over by Florence + the Machine.

18 Train "Hey Soul Sister" May 2010
24 Florence & The Machine Dog Days Are Over (re-emergence) Apr 2010

http://thequietus.com/articles/05506-2011-tips-brother
http://new.assets.thequietus.com/images/articles/5506/brother_cunts_1294254918_crop_550x349.jpg

One reference point that to me is pivotal is, when British radio ignored the Scandanavian Black Metal scene that sold millions globally in the late 90's.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2hz3dvr.png

Come on Geir, this is you isn't it?

Hibernica

10 January 2011 10:41PM

Rock n roll is dead because melody is dead.

Rhythym-based genres like RnB, hip hop and dance are all the rage. but they are all genres which use melody sparingly, if at all.

They are lesser art forms than more tuneful genres because they eschew the good old-fashioned tune so you need to be less talented to be successful than you did when melody was king.

What we're living through at the moment is an era where songs are easy to dance to but difficult to listen to.

The bad old days are here.

Nope. Melody is not dead. Melody will never die. :)

Also note that rock has been pronounced dead before as well, but has always made a comeback. There is actually a generation of kids who are into rock now, but it is of course a problem for rock that those kids tend to prefer old music by Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Guns'n'Roses and Metallica rather than checking out new rock.

My feeling is that of course rock isn't dead - look at all the 2000-capacity venues still being filled by rock bands, with no sign of that ever ending.

However, Geir, by your logic about indie, surely you would say that rock has been driven underground, in that rock No 1s are few and far between and are often reissued songs or ancient bands.

i wonder how many 'rock' songs were in the top 100 singles in say 1987 or 1992 or 2000. can't have been.. a crazy amount more than now can it?

However, Geir, by your logic about indie, surely you would say that rock has been driven underground, in that rock No 1s are few and far between and are often reissued songs or ancient bands.

Save for the 50s and a brief period in the late 60s/early 70s, rock music has never been the dominant musical form in the singles charts though.

All the above OTM. The whole story is limited to the singles chart - meanwhile rock bands sell out venues as big as the O2 with some regularity.

I don't know who Radio 4 had as their "expert" yesterday afternoon but his sole contribution was to claim that Kings of Leon aren't a singles band, when in fact they're probably the ONLY rock band with never-leave-the-chart megahits in the past two or three years.

Selling out venues is more dependant on older material though. It seems rock bands are currently having a hard time selling newly penned material.

But so they did in 1991, then stuff happened.

i wonder how many 'rock' songs were in the top 100 singles in say 1987

UK Top 100 Singles of 1987

1 Never Gonna Give You Up – Rick Astley
2 Nothing’s Gonna Stop Us Now – Starship
3 I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me) – Whitney Houston
4 You Win Again – Bee Gees
5 China In Your Hand – T’Pau
6 Respectable – Mel and Kim
7 Stand By Me – Ben E King
8 It’s A Sin – Pet Shop Boys
9 Star Trekkin’ – The Firm
10 Pump Up The Volume – M/A/R/R/S
11 I Knew You Were Waiting (For Me) – George Michael & Aretha Franklin
12 Under The Boardwalk – Bruce Willis
13 Let It Be – Ferry Aid
14 Always On My Mind – Pet Shop Boys
15 Got My Mind Set On You – George Harrison
16 Can’t Be With You Tonight – Judi Boucher
17 La Isla Bonita - Madonna
18 La Bamba – Los Lobos
19 Hold Me Now – Johnny Logan
20 Who’s That Girl - Madonna
21 Everything I Own – Boy George
22 Down To Earth – Curiousity Killed The Cat
23 When A Man Loves A Woman – Percy Sledge
24 Heartache – Pepsi and Shirlie
25 Always – Atlantic Starr
26 Whenever You Need Somebody – Rick Astley
27 Toy Boy - Sinitta
28 I Get The Sweetest Feeling – Jackie Wilson
29 Faith – George Michael
30 I Just Can’t Stop Loving You – Michael Jackson & Siedah Garrett
31 Live It Up – Mental As Anything
32 Love In The First Degree/Mr. Sleaze - Bananarama
33 Crockett’s Theme – Jan Hammer
34 Alone - Heart
35 Wipeout – Fat Boys & Beach Boys
36 Call Me - Spagna
37 Let’s Wait Awhile – Janet Jackson
38 Jack Your Body – Steve ‘Silk’ Hurley
39 The Great Pretender – Freddie Mercury
40 Male Stripper – Man 2 Man Meets Man Parrish
41 Lean On Me – Club Nouveau
42 What Have I Done To Deserve This – Pet Shop Boys & Dusty Springfield
43 Some People – Cliff Richard
44 A Boy From Nowhere – Tom Jones
45 With Or Without You – U2
46 Wishing Well – Terence ‘Trent’ D’Arby
47 Heart and Soul – T’Pau
48 Fairytale Of New York – The Pogues & Kirsty MacColl
49 I Wanna Be Your Drill Instructor – Abigail Mead & Nigel Goulding
50 My Arms Keep Missing You/When I Fall In Love – Rick Astley
51 Never Can Say Goodbye - Communards
52 Bad – Michael Jackson
53 You’re The Voice – John Farnham
54 Living In A Box – Living In A Box
55 Little Lies – Fleetwood Mac
56 The Way You Make Me Feel – Michael Jackson
57 Sweet Little Mystery – Wet Wet Wet
58 Reet Petite – Jackie Wilson
59 Shattered Dreams – Johnny Hates Jazz
60 True Faith – New Order
61 Criticize – Alexander O’Neal
62 Rockin’ Around The Christmas Tree – Mel Smith & Kim Wilde
63 Crush On You – The Jets
64 I Want Your Sex – George Michael
65 Love Letters – Alison Moyet
66 Jack Mix II - Mirage
67 If You Let Me Stay –Terence ‘Trent’ D’Arby
68 Labour Of Love – Hue and Cry
69 Running In The Family – Level 42
70 Almaz – Randy Crawford
71 (Something Inside) So Strong – Labi Siffre
72 Causing A Commotion - Madonna
73 My Baby Just Cares For Me – Nina Simone
74 (I’ve Had) The Time Of My Life – Bill Medley & Jennifer Warnes
75 I Found Lovin’ – Fatback Band
76 Weak In The Presence Of Beauty – Alison Moyet
77 FLM – Mel & Kim
78 Letter From America – The Proclaimers
79 The Slightest Touch – Five Star
80 What Do You Want To Make Those Eyes At Me For – Shakin’ Stevens
81 So Emotional – Whitney Houston
82 Mony Mony – Billy Idol
83 Somewhere Out There – Linda Ronstadt & James Ingram
84 House Nation – Housemaster Boyz
85 Heaven Is A Place On Earth – Belinda Carlisle
86 Animal – Def Leppard
87 Wishing I Was Lucky – Wet Wet Wet
88 Here I Go Again - Whitesnake
89 Is This Love – Alison Moyet
90 The Circus - Erasure
91 Crazy Crazy Nights - KISS
92 I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For – U2
93 The Living Daylights – A-ha
94 Coming Around Again – Carly Simon
95 C’est La Vie – Robbie Nevil
96 Another Step (Closer To You) – Kim Wilde & Junior
97 I Need Love – LL Cool J
98 Is This Love - Whitesnake
99 Jive Talkin’ – Boogie Box High
100 No More The Fool – Elkie Brooks

Have been pretty loose with my definition of rock... but it looks like a pretty moribund singles genre even then.

The Starship one was almost entirely based upon synths, and produced by Narada Michael Walden, so I don't know if I'd count that one even though "We Built This City" was rock.

Btw. I would guess there were probably fewer rock songs in 1983 than in 1987. 1987 was more or less the crown year of the hair metal genre.

Wow, chart rock was fucking awful in 1987 (cept for 34, 45 & 55)

xpost. Kings of Leon, Arcade Fire and Elbow all selling out O2 on strength of their last couple of albums.

Rock has never been as absent from the charts as it has been in the last couple of years, which is the difference between now and previous 'rock is dead' statements.

But the charts are more dead than Rock so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

xpost Yes, Geir, but nor was indie ever prevalent in the singles chart. Until the era you said it had been driven underground.

xpost Don't forget Coldplay as well, Dorian. And Muse selling out multiple nights at stadiums.

Kings of Leon, Arcade Fire and Elbow all selling out O2 on strength of their last couple of album

The first two I understand but Elbow seriously got that big?

Yeah, they're called "Big Elbow" thesedays...

The Killers are (regrettably) still very big too.

And that's leaving aside the countless big metal bands, not all of whom are Maidenesque veterans. Avenged Sevenfold, for example.

yeah Elbow's sales went through the roof when they won the Mercury in 09 and ever since they've been an arena type band. played up here at Manchester MEN (largest indoor venue in the country) a year ago. also The Courteeners; a down the line rock band from round here, also played Gmex late last year and none of them can be much older than their late 20s and have never had much chart action.

Courteeners are like a zillion times as popular in their home town as anywhere else tho right? Much more so than bands tend to be, even

Yes, Courteeners play venues four times bigger in Manchester than anywhere else in the country.

Yeah, they're called "Big Elbow" thesedays...

There was an arse joke waiting to be made there, but alas, the moment has passed.

"82 Mony Mony – Billy Idol"

This song makes me want to kill when it comes on the radio. Goddamn i hate it so much.

Speaking of huge rock acts, I am guessing Green Day and My Chemical Romance don't exactly struggle to fill stadiums either.

The former of course being an act that has been around for some time, but their last couple of albums are very important for a large part of their fanbase. They don't benefit all that much from "Basket Case" anymore.

PiscesX: The main guy out of the Courteeners is my age, whatever his PR and record label claim he is... he's not in his early 20s.

Patrick Carney Rips Nickelback: 'Horrendous Sh*t' Says Black Keys Drummer

"Rock & roll is dying because people became OK with Nickelback being the biggest band in the world," he told the magazine. "So they became OK with the idea that the biggest rock band in the world is always going to be sh*t - therefore you should never try to be the biggest rock band in the world. F*ck that! Rock & roll is the music I feel the most passionately about, and I don't like to see it fucking ruined and spoon-fed down our throats in this watered-down, post-grunge crap, horrendous shit. When people start lumping us into that kind of shit, it's like, 'F*ck you,' honestly."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/patrick-carney-rips-nickelback-horrendous-shit_n_1183950.html

Rock 'n' Roll Is Dead? Again?
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/column/158581-rock-n-roll-is-dead-again/

Using Scott's earlier litmus test of Rose Tattoo, I definitely like last year's Graveyard album and this year's Royal Thunder better than Rose Tattoo :)

lol that the idea of "rock n' roll" being alive comes down to "what jack black thinks" vs. "what dave grohl thinks"

in the sense that Jack Black = Pesci, Dave Grohl = de Niro and Rock'n'Roll = body suddenly making a lot of noise in the trunk of the car

http://static.nme.com/images/gallery/08128_102208_davegrohl_ge_L180907.jpg

"Go get your fuckin' shinebox, Jackie"

The enlightened Billy Corgan chimes in: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405788,00.asp - it's Facebook and Apple's fault!

Good thing too.

dead

it's UNDEAD guys! ZOMBIE ROCK DEATH MEME!

rock has been declared dead every few years since Elvis joined the army

i think the "rock is dead" narrative actually died for a few years, when the "hip hop is dead" one started picking up steam

RIP rock

http://on.aol.com/video/russell-brand-screams-we-built-this-city-on-rock-and-roll-517385489

The hero can't dead till the last reel!

Rock may not be dead in the same sense that jazz isn't 'dead' but it's getting to the point where I only hear new rock that sounds innovative or fresh about once a year.

I think that Rock of Ages movie is sort of 'file in rock is dead' category. Also that Twisted Sister and Poison still have careers.

what on earth makes it dead?

apparently when a critic decides they want a piece that'll generate buzz/draw readers

2019: when the guy from Superchunk thinks he's Harold Budd and the guy from Lambchop thinks he's Frank Ocean

Rock officially migrated to Australia

Died of the boogie-woogie flu, wasn't vaxxed

got @Metoo'ed