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Is music journalism really a career for an adult?

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It seems that that's the direction I'm going in at the moment. Things seem to be working out for me in that someone seems to have recently decided that it's in their interest to start paying me to write reviews/features/interview bands etc.

However, I'm starting to have doubts and I'm not entirely sure this is what I want to do.
a) I feel like something of a fraud, having a somewhat shallower musical knowledge than I feel I should have for this job.
BUT more importantly
b) Is this really what grown-ups do? Making a living vicariously through the success (or lack thereof) of pop bands seems a tad juvenile to me.

Don't get me wrong I love listening to music but I'm not entirely sure I want it to become my life and/or become one of those types of cunts from the NME or wherever that appear as commentators on these god-awful top-100 whatever programs on Channel4.

it may not work out for me anyway and I may thus be forced to redirect myself anyway, but as things are, this seems to be the proverbial path of least resistance.

This has become a far longer introspective than I had planned. Well, no matter.

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)

Making a living vicariously through the success (or lack thereof) of pop bands seems a tad juvenile to me.

Making a living as a sports writer is the zenith of juvenile. But there's tons of adults doing it.

― George the Animal Steele, Friday, 25 November 2005 19:21 (twenty years ago)

Indeed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:24 (twenty years ago)

"adult" is a pretty meaningless and subjective term once you get past the legal definition.

― the jews (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:26 (twenty years ago)

LISTEN TO THE JEWS

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

BTW I didn't mean that as an attack on music journalists per se - there are a great many that I have a lot of respect for, including yourself Ned, although there are a few that I regard as essentially the embodiment of everything I loathe in the world - just that maybe it's not really for me.

As for the semantics debate of my use of the word "adult", maybe that wasn't really what I meant.

I suspect yez understand me anyway.

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

well you did say "is this really what grownups do?"

― the jews (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:38 (twenty years ago)

True. I did indeed use the term "grown-up" based on the assumption that y'all wouldn't get bogged down in it. But c'mon, help me out here. I'm just looking for a "yes, a career in music journalism is a perfectly appropriate long-term professional pursuit" or alternative response.

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

Don't worry too much about the longterm. If you're good and ambitious, you can write about anything, music's as good a thing as any to start with.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

It doesn't sound like this is the job for you. I suggest you immediately contact the editor you were submitting stuff to, and tell him you're out of the game and that he should get reviews and whatnot from me, instead, for the foreseeable future.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

What your basically saying is that you write shitty reviews for your student newspaper and a fellow idiot has decided to give you £5 to review the latest We Believe In Lucy EP for his equally dreadful fanzine, right?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

On a moral scale, it's not as admirable or useful as teaching school in rural Kentucky or helping indigenous labor organizers in Bolivia. But it's a lot better than doing public relations for ExxonMobil or writing legal memos justifying the use of torture.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

If you're a journalist, you're a journalist. It doesn't matter what you're covering, so don't feel bad you're writing about music versus, I dunno, the murder beat. If you're a critic, then as long as you direct people to albums and acts they may have missed, or good records they may enjoy, then it sounds sound to me. Plus, if you feel unqualified, consider it a challenge and opportunity to expand your horizons even as you attempt to expand those of others. But if all you do is serve as a buying guide, focusing on albums everyone has heard of or will hear about from everyone else, then yes, the job will eventually weigh on you as unsubstantial. In other words, like many things in life, it is what you make of it.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 25 November 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

I'd point in Huk's direction. Writing solely about music strikes me as a risky long-term career path -- but if you can make music just the first thing you write about, and push as much as possible into other areas, you stand a much better chance of having a proper career. Part of what this means might involve being willing to do a little bit of rote, unstylish journalism along the way. I think part of the attraction to music criticism, for a lot of people, is that you can slang and be abstract and all that, pretty much right from the start, without having to do the journalistic grunt-work that other topics might require to get a foot in the door; even within music writing, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor by getting used to concrete newspaper style, getting really good at constructing features, etc., and using all those concrete non-musical journalism kills to leverage yourself in other directions.

― nabiscothingy, Friday, 25 November 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

rote, unstylish journalism can be really sexy!

― the jews (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 November 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

rote, unstylish journalism generally pays a lot better, too!

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 25 November 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

That's my whole point! And I get the feeling that some (aspiring?) music writers get focused on what they can do within whatever music circles they came up through, and wind up either neglecting that journalistic stuff or actually writing it off as staid and boring. (This is a limited group I'm talking about here; I'm sure most people who actually depend on the writing for rent-paying are more than happy to shoot for newspaper pieces and journalism as proper work/career.)

― nabiscothingy, Friday, 25 November 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)

Appreciate the thoughts - except Dom's of course which is a somewhat prickish comment to make. Regardless of the (in)accuracy of the comment, that's not really the point is it?

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), Friday, 25 November 2005 21:55 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, I'm trying to work out if this is a course worth pursuing before I commit myself one way or the other (although I recognize that these days there's really no such thing a commitment to a particular career). Writing and music are my passions so i've naturally lead myself in the direction of combining the two. Maybe I just haven't really thought about the options I have.

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), Friday, 25 November 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

It's not a career for an adult if you sit on your ass complaining about how shit it is and doing nothing, no matter how true that is, and I don't mean that in a superior way either, talking from experience.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 25 November 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

JtN to thread!

― the bellefox, Friday, 25 November 2005 22:09 (twenty years ago)

If you're really looking for "what is this career like" advice: I don't think music writing is a very good gig. You're up against hundreds of people who all want to write about the same record as you, there are fewer markets and most of them are dumbing down, and it doesn't pay well, even if you're an editor. I've worked for music editors in their mid-twenties who handle the music section for an entire weekly newspaper, but still pull in dishwasher money. And if you ever landed a steady gig it would be hard to walk away from it, even if you were sick of covering eight skater-rock bands and a Kenny Loggins concert every week for the Daily Yawn or wherever you lucked into a salaried job.

So if writing, and not specifically music writing, is your passion, you'll want to start thinking about other things you could cover to supplement or replace your music work.

But you know, you're not exactly "committing" to it - you could try it and just see where it leads. You might end up writing steadily for one of the three or four music publications that are worth reading, and really enjoy it. You might do it for a few years and decide to get into the industry. You might have a lot of fun and see a ton of free concerts and then go to law school.

― save the robot (save the robot), Friday, 25 November 2005 22:11 (twenty years ago)

I thought the whole point of Dom's comment was to goad the Spinal Tap loving aspiring journo into naming names. Daerest faliure.

I'm not entirely sure I want it to become my life
If you already have doubts I'm afraid they will only get bigger...

― blunt (blunt), Friday, 25 November 2005 22:18 (twenty years ago)

Getting paid to think about music is a fucking privilege. The important thing is to actually think about it - what it means, why we should care, where does the music fit into the wider scheme of things - all that malarkey. If you're just going to write the same old, irrelevant shit as Mojo, Q, NME, Observer Music Monthly (ugh) and whatever their equivalents are outside the UK - then go find something else to do. The world doesn't need more muso journos. Good luck.

― 11V (11V), Friday, 25 November 2005 23:21 (twenty years ago)

If by "adult" you mean "someone who has listened for years with an open ear and been interested," then yeah. Sometimes it comes down to whether reading a review where a high school kid is talking about pop rock is better than a 40 year old reviewer talking about it from the perspective of a teen, though. But the more "objective" reviews usually work a little better when they're by someone who's been around a while.

― mike h. (mike h.), Friday, 25 November 2005 23:36 (twenty years ago)

As someone who cruises these pages as a non-writer I always appreciate reading someone who has something to say and who obviously enjoys saying it. I will always read someone who obviously has a passion for music and surely that's what brings us all here. Lifetime career? Fuck, what's that! I've been struggling as an artist for years and often ask myself if I'm fooling meself, but whatever else I do to pay the bills the bug still gets to me which has me walking out on well paid jobs to pursue what I regard as my 'true' career. You'll never lose that but it doesn't mean you can't go looking for other avenues to express yourself. You don't stop being an artist in whatever area you've chosen. Sometimes you wish you could and live a 'normal' life of just living without the questions, but look at those lives closer and you soon realise you wouldn't want to go there.

As Kafka had it "I live for the struggle for it is all I know." Sure his novels aren't exactly a laugh a minute but it's what drove him beyond the paperwork at an insurance company for chirstsake!

― tolstoy (tolstoy), Saturday, 26 November 2005 00:24 (twenty years ago)

in russia-land - no
no matter how sure i am that this is what i want to do
sadly

that's why i'm currently switching to be an interfax news agency correspondent/translator, ha ha

― nique (nique), Saturday, 26 November 2005 00:25 (twenty years ago)

Nice thread by the way. Good to hear the doubts expressed.

― tolstoy (tolstoy), Saturday, 26 November 2005 00:26 (twenty years ago)

You could start a blog, post your thoughts, a listener's diary, see how it goes. See if you bore yourself shitless, that's a bad sign. Ask your friends to read and post comments, ask us too. See how your opinions of your opinions (and your opinions of music) compare with those of your readers. You may not get any intelligent response; you may not get any. That happens sometimes. Writing is creepy that way. See how you feel, if that's the way it goes (or doesn't go, in effect). You may not mind so much after all. But if you find you do mind so much, better do something else. (PS: writing features has only taught me how to write features, not to be a better reviewer, mush less critic.)

― don, Saturday, 26 November 2005 00:30 (twenty years ago)

no one who isn't working toward the overthrow of bourgeois hegemony, and the advent of marxian 20 hour work weeks, is an "adult" in our "culture"

― louie shelton, Saturday, 26 November 2005 00:54 (twenty years ago)

If it paid more it'd probably be considered more "adult."

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:14 (twenty years ago)

oh so true abbadabba

― nique (nique), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:36 (twenty years ago)

Hey, congratulations, you snort cocaine, run around in a big room screaming numbers, and use your earnings to buy prostitutes. You're a fucking adult!

― Abbadabba Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:38 (twenty years ago)

all "adult" means in our "culture" is how much you get laid and how hot the layers are. if you're good looking, be a rock critic, fuck it. if you're not, go to law school! and vive la revolution!

― louie shelton, Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:39 (twenty years ago)

layers? good looking? what?

― athol fugard (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 26 November 2005 02:53 (twenty years ago)

ha ha, now go turn this "culture" into Culture if you're forced to work with morons, who don't know a shit, don't do a shit and don't give a shit.....

:::(((

― nique (nique), Saturday, 26 November 2005 03:45 (twenty years ago)

No disrespect meant to the many talented writers plying their trade in this field, but I could never do it. The rewards (fiscal, artistic) are too small for me.

Instead of hunting and scraping for work that I'm not always thrilled with, I work in administration for an art school. I receive a solid salary with benefits, and I never have to worry about hunting for work.

There are certain people who thrive off of this particular hustle, but I'd just like to point out that there are plenty of fulfilling writing jobs out there that don't involve journalism and allow for some artistic license.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Saturday, 26 November 2005 04:12 (twenty years ago)

It seems you're too ambivalent to make a go of it, really. Too many basic doubts that would get in the way of "just writing," and that could undermine you. There's a self-consciousness about whether you "should" do this...framing up the question in terms of what grown-ups do.

Society at large and most grown-ups will tell you not to be a music journalist. And, no, being a music journalist isn't Something Grown-Ups Do. If you're looking for any kind of acceptance from grown-ups (even if you do become "successful" many grown-ups will not acknowledge it as true success, but success as graspable and relevant to them as building a really intricate sand castle or something) from current or future grown-ups, you are not likely to get it. If that kind of acceptance is important to you--if you do not want to be considered eccentric or an outsider by respectable normal grown-ups--do something else.

To be successul as a music journalist (and many other vocations) you pretty much have to be obsessed with it--and in that case you pretty much don't have a choice but to become a music journalist.

I guess I heard more about why you wouldn't choose to be a music journalist than why you would...

― limeginger, Saturday, 26 November 2005 06:08 (twenty years ago)

I'd just like to point out that there are plenty of fulfilling writing jobs out there that don't involve journalism and allow for some artistic license.

especially with organizations that publish research reports -- it's a great way to get that urge out of your system without any of the pressure that comes from being "a writer."

― athol fugard (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 26 November 2005 06:19 (twenty years ago)

Fuck music journalism. Find yourself some rich parents. "Trust fund recipient" is the career you want. Put yourself up for adoption to test the market...

― Reggie, Saturday, 26 November 2005 06:35 (twenty years ago)

Music Journalism is an unworthy use of a human life. You will die having accomplished nothing and your soul will descend to the lower planes.

― Kapec, Saturday, 26 November 2005 10:21 (twenty years ago)

It really is a horrible way to make a living. You don't make much, and writing is pure agony all the time (writer's block, deadlines, dissatisfaction with everything you write if you're any kind of a perfectionist, subpar pay, etc.). It's not worth it.

― grant, Saturday, 26 November 2005 11:08 (twenty years ago)

There's a self-consciousness about whether you "should" do this...framing up the question in terms of what grown-ups do.

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I think my peers and social superiors would probably have more respect for me for doing this than say, pursuing a more typical "grown-up" path. It's more about whether I would find it rewarding enough to do it long term, or would simply get tired of churning out the same mind-numbing bullshit about records I couldn't give two fucks about.

I suspect I may have just answered my own question right there.

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), Saturday, 26 November 2005 16:39 (twenty years ago)

It's more about whether I would find it rewarding enough to do it long term, or would simply get tired of churning out the same mind-numbing bullshit about records I couldn't give two fucks about.

Again, what's the "long-term" anymore? Do it for a couple years and see where it takes you. You'll probably get more real world experience having to interview bands and write under deadlines than at most of the office jobs out there.

― save the robot (save the robot), Saturday, 26 November 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

and also, don't forget about the free concerts and all the fun music's about

― nique (nique), Saturday, 26 November 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)

Dom OTM

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 26 November 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

Music journalists write about music. Not neccessarily young people's music, but music. A 50 year-old music journalist may well still write about music, if he writes about music that other 50 year-olds tend to like.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 26 November 2005 23:24 (twenty years ago)

yes, as a journalist i find it is vital that i only write about things in which people of my age will be interested.

and, like, only other oldsters listened to john peel, didn't they? daddio.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 27 November 2005 00:15 (twenty years ago)

Again, what's the "long-term" anymore?

this is very true. most people don't follow one career path anymore; that's a holdover from the days when there was such a thing as job security.

― athol fugard (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 27 November 2005 00:21 (twenty years ago)

although when you're young there's that nagging feeling that if you even waste one year, your whole future is ruined.

― athol fugard (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 27 November 2005 00:24 (twenty years ago)

And if you ever landed a steady gig it would be hard to walk away from it, even if you were sick of covering eight skater-rock bands and a Kenny Loggins concert every week for the Daily Yawn or wherever you lucked into a salaried job.

OTM

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Sunday, 27 November 2005 02:42 (twenty years ago)

although when you're young there's that nagging feeling that if you even waste one year, your whole future is ruined.

I wish I had had that feeling!

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Sunday, 27 November 2005 02:46 (twenty years ago)

four years pass...

I got forwarded a posting about a music blogging job opportunity and one of the stipulations was that you had to read 200 blogs on google reader a day

sounds like some sort of personal hell, tbh

― Oh boy, ILX! That's where I'm a Whiney! (dyao), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:00 (fifteen years ago)

how often are you allowed to pee?

― cool and remote like dancing girls (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:03 (fifteen years ago)

What, exactly, were the other stipulations?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:06 (fifteen years ago)

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2009/04/prison.jpg
read yr blogs

― tylerw, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:07 (fifteen years ago)

You couldn't date, you need fresh sand in your litter box, and contact lenses are not included.

― cool and remote like dancing girls (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:07 (fifteen years ago)

hmm you have to oversee a couple of interns, be able to write on a deadline (not too pitchfork-y or press release-y), work at an office in NY

― Oh boy, ILX! That's where I'm a Whiney! (dyao), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:10 (fifteen years ago)

not too pitchfork-y or press release-y

Just kind of journalist...y?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:10 (fifteen years ago)

i'd be very interested to see a list of music journalists who aren't the editor of something, who currently, in 2010, live off of it.

― black sheep boys and chips ahoys (kiss out the jams), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:14 (fifteen years ago)

you are in a field

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:30 (4 months ago)

it is dark now

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:30 (4 months ago)

you sleep

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:30 (4 months ago)

it is day

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:30 (4 months ago)

you take out your notepad

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:30 (4 months ago)

on it, you find a picture of your face

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:30 (4 months ago)

the notepad, you realize, is a mirror

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:30 (4 months ago)

you write a note

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:31 (4 months ago)

it is night

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:31 (4 months ago)

you are sleepy

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:31 (4 months ago)

you look at the notepad

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:31 (4 months ago)

you fall into the notepad

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:31 (4 months ago)

into the notepad

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:31 (4 months ago)

in front you, you see your wife

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:32 (4 months ago)

your child is in your arms

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:32 (4 months ago)

your face is covered with blood

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:33 (4 months ago)

you write on your notepad

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:33 (4 months ago)

you are a journalist

― super sexy psycho fantasy world (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 December 2009 23:33 (4 months ago)

― sausage s4rgent (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:16 (fifteen years ago)

the job descript says "show that you can write in an animated, intelligent way" that's not too "insider-y, pitchfork academic, or brainless PR"...y

anyway if anyone's interested on this board webmail me and I can forward you the posting. it's for /\/\TV but tbh it sounds like it's for a fresh grad who's willing to live off of cheerios

― dyao, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:17 (fifteen years ago)

Not much different from any other grad.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 15:19 (fifteen years ago)

My friend Polly of the Popinjays always said being in a band was for people who hadn't grown up yet

― Dr X O'Skeleton, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 18:16 (fifteen years ago)

is music journalism really a career for an adult?

― emotional radiohead whatever (Jordan), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 18:24 (fifteen years ago)

is music journalism really a career for an adult?

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 18:25 (fifteen years ago)

is music journalism really a career for an adult?

― ksh, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 18:41 (fifteen years ago)

one of the stipulations was that you had to read 200 blogs on google reader a day

what a disaster for Net News Wire users

― ksh, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 18:43 (fifteen years ago)

Congratulation to 200 blogs for their extra 1 reader per day.

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 18:44 (fifteen years ago)

four years pass...

Classic Pop Magazine

6 hrs ·
.

Classic Pop is looking for regional correspondents (with some experience in journalism) to cover live shows and festivals in the North and North East.
Anyone interested? Let us know here asap!

(The link doesn't look like it has worked but if you can't figure out how to contact them ... )

― djh, Thursday, 5 June 2014 17:23 (eleven years ago)

answer to q is no, obv

― dn/ac (darraghmac), Thursday, 5 June 2014 17:54 (eleven years ago)

shit we can't all be project managers and scrum masters

― j., Thursday, 5 June 2014 17:55 (eleven years ago)

all careers are careers for adults

― mikelovestfu (wins), Thursday, 5 June 2014 18:04 (eleven years ago)

that's what makes them careers

― mikelovestfu (wins), Thursday, 5 June 2014 18:04 (eleven years ago)

but not every career has an adult

― dn/ac (darraghmac), Thursday, 5 June 2014 18:22 (eleven years ago)

three years pass...

http://crackmagazine.net/opinion/opinion/when-did-music-journalism-stop-wielding-the-axe/

― djh, Saturday, 29 July 2017 07:33 (eight years ago)

seeing that url I thought piece would be about how music journalists no longer hold authority to wield the axe

― niels, Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:19 (eight years ago)

big data's a more scientific era. it's guillotines now.

― difficult listening hour, Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:21 (eight years ago)

it's p easy to rip things to pieces - that piece is guilty of the old assumption that negativity is somehow more intellectually valid than positivity. in a world where i can just go and listen to anything instantly it's not that worthwhile to have somebody telling me "don't listen to this", i mean except occasionally on some deeper level about a scene or whatever, or as a form of entertainment, or for people who can't see beyond the inherent discrepancy in power between the language of invective and the language of praise.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:34 (eight years ago)

even talking about "bootings" - you're a middle-aged man sitting typing at a computer, there's nothing violent about criticising music made by some relative children, and if there was, that'd be nothing to feel macho or proud about.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:38 (eight years ago)

Negative criticism is as important as positive criticism - I'm utterly bored with reading critics that apparently like everything. Nobody likes everything!

― The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:49 (eight years ago)

it's not as if there isn't still negativity around, or negative reactions to things, it's all still there in abundance, just that not many people need to read one man's big theory of why something is crap.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:50 (eight years ago)

all rippings are not equal. I cld use a lot more negativity in music criticism, even hyperbolic/one-sided pieces when done well. there's so much stuff which is sufficiently niche that anyone who goes to the trouble of writing about it is cheerleading. liking things is cheap, doesn't require much investment, but I love reading about the things ppl loathe when they really engage, the more specific the better

― ogmor, Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:52 (eight years ago)

^^^

― The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:54 (eight years ago)

it's the joy of dialectic; negative takes on things I love often clarify and harden my love more than a positive piece

― ogmor, Saturday, 29 July 2017 09:54 (eight years ago)

in a world where i can just go and listen to anything instantly it's not that worthwhile to have somebody telling me "don't listen to this"

otm, but the accessibility also affects positive criticism - most people prefer listening to music to reading about it, robots can do a lot of the curating

― niels, Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:02 (eight years ago)

the more specific the better

i'd agree if it was common for negative reviews to be well-executed, but a great many negative reviews end up sounding the same. wildly different things from food to movies to music get criticised for the same reasons.

there's so much stuff which is sufficiently niche that anyone who goes to the trouble of writing about it is cheerleading

i think with this stuff it becomes less and less likely that a hugely negative review has any kind of impact or even veracity. someone can hate it, sure, but it's incredibly difficult to connect it to anything.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:06 (eight years ago)

a lot of ppl never had a lot of use for personal essays and could only really get on board w music criticism through the ideal of the objective consumer guide/product tester who'd keep their biases in check to save you time

obv most music writing is bad, always has been, but that seems besidea the point. idk what impact or veracity you'd want to aim for exactly, it's all just helping ppl make sense of things, hear them differently. I think it's natural with anything you really love to notice all the senses in which it fails, all the paths it doesn't take and so on, the idea that negativity is some distinct part of the listening/critical process is nonsense

― ogmor, Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:14 (eight years ago)

On his side initially, but when he started off on how much he missed the tedious "bootings" of Johnny Cigarettes etc. in the late 90s I lost all sympathy for his argument - it was that sort of thing that put me off music journalism for a decade. I have literally never read one of these "bootings" which is not just an ego trip for the writer to show off his stock of elaborate synonyms for "this is bad, I didn't like it"

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:22 (eight years ago)

obv most music writing is bad, always has been, but that seems besidea the point. idk what impact or veracity you'd want to aim for exactly, it's all just helping ppl make sense of things, hear them differently. I think it's natural with anything you really love to notice all the senses in which it fails, all the paths it doesn't take and so on, the idea that negativity is some distinct part of the listening/critical process is nonsense

i mean, your points here are a lot more thoughtful and reasoned than someone talking about "bootings" etc in such an aggrandising and childish way.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:30 (eight years ago)

In these unsteady times, the role of the critic in rocking the boat is more – not less – important. Contemporary trends in advertising and the corporate hollowing out of the media are so dire that in a decade you, the reader and consumer of music, are likely to be faced by an endless spew of clickbait and commercialised dross. It is our responsibility as critics to join the rearguard action against the age of beige, to call out its musical enablers, and start fighting back.

i mean... ffs. yeah cos otherwise we sheeple will be brainwashed by the media men. seriously - imagine having that level of self-importance.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:31 (eight years ago)

likely to be faced by an endless spew of clickbait and commercialised dross

what does this actually mean? "faced by" - ie it exists. "an endless spew" - on... sites i don't read? doesn't seem endless.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:32 (eight years ago)

this is "i don't like pop" volume 2,000,000 and that obvious vibe undermines anything thoughtful that could be said, ogmor much more reasonable on here tho

― put your hands on the car and get ready to die (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:37 (eight years ago)

I think lgs and ogmors good thoughts on things above are separate to the real issue

Music writing is or may be ok but music writers are bad and should not exist

― jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:55 (eight years ago)

I was pondering this last night, while drunk.

Or, rather, I was pondering someone's response to it (before I'd read the actual piece).

I find Mr Agreeable style "bootings" a bit boring. I think the struggle is to say something is *okay* (and to engage with it in an interesting way) rather than declare it as great. I do wonder if there's been a slight shift towards positive reviews (that I get to read) because people are quite attached to the idea of free music (from PRs).

I was also reminded how irritating I find it when people tweet their positive reviews to the artist (which I think leaves you in a position of having to write a positive review because you want to tweet the artist).

― djh, Saturday, 29 July 2017 10:59 (eight years ago)

I've lost count of how many vitriolic Charlie Brooker style "this made me want to rip off my own testicles and eat them" rants I've read in my life. They're always the same and they're always so boring and they always end up telling you more about the writer's own biases and viewpoints than anything insightful about the work.

― boxedjoy, Saturday, 29 July 2017 11:58 (eight years ago)

I've never heard negative reviews referred to as "bootings" before, but this article is completely OTM. When was the last real "booting"? The Jet review of the gorilla pissing into its own mouth?

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 29 July 2017 12:05 (eight years ago)

modern life is snrubbish

― mark s, Saturday, 29 July 2017 12:32 (eight years ago)

this is "i don't like pop" volume 2,000,000 and that obvious vibe undermines anything thoughtful that could be said

nonsense. Most of the music luke takes down is boring indie approved shit.

― Odysseus, Saturday, 29 July 2017 12:46 (eight years ago)

it's all pop

― put your hands on the car and get ready to die (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 29 July 2017 12:46 (eight years ago)

nonsense. Most of the music luke takes down is boring indie approved shit.

most of the music anyone "takes down" is "boring something approved shit"

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 14:25 (eight years ago)

it's not about liking or disliking things, it's about the level of engagement

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 14:54 (eight years ago)

ime it is hard to really hate something and describe it honestly

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 15:04 (eight years ago)

I don't really need anyone to "take down" anything tbh. But the last 2 bits of music writing I really enjoyed(Adam Shatz on Mal Waldron + Craig Taborn) were in the realm of boring old music for boring old tossers. And both were longform pieces of gushing praise for two extraordinary artiste types I really dig, written by a writer I usually thought was a bit of an arse, tbh. But there is an almost infinite space for whatever people want to write about music, and it doesn't really matter what approach they take. I wouldn't go as far as Dmac, but I would say what music writers do is of very little importance (which Luke doesn't seem to grasp going by the piece linked upthread) and lots of successful ones are very bad! Mind you, maybe a moratorium on all these shit Blair apologist music hacks from the 90's wouldn't go amiss.

― calzino, Saturday, 29 July 2017 15:10 (eight years ago)

Is this the same Luke Turner yhat used yo write for PlayLouder.com back in the fay? Now that was a site that knew how write a goddamn "booting" review. They were funny as hell.

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 29 July 2017 15:33 (eight years ago)

Jesus I can't type today.

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 29 July 2017 15:33 (eight years ago)

où sont les bootings d'antan?

― put your hands on the car and get ready to die (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 29 July 2017 16:49 (eight years ago)

it's not about liking or disliking things, it's about the level of engagement

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, July 29, 2017 3:54 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ime it is hard to really hate something and describe it honestly

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, July 29, 2017 4:04 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think the main issue I have with negative take music writing is just this. A lot of it comes off as very dishonest, disengaged, and hyperbolic. Most vv negative reviews I read are extremely terrible, they make me want to refer the writer to a psychiatrist.

― nomar, Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:26 (eight years ago)

i agree with that, a lot of negative takes are crucial misunderstandings of what's actually there, or wilful/accidental inability to see what the defining characteristics or purpose of the music is, ie "why does this not have the properties of another entirely different thing that i like..."

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:29 (eight years ago)

i don't need anybody to tell me what to hate. negative criticism: "this record is bad! you shouldn't listen to it!" ok, then, well, i won't? for the same reason i don't often write negative criticism. if i think an album sucks i don't see the point of drawing attention to it unless somebody is paying me to (nobody is paying me to.) if i'm going to be cruel and vicious, i can think of better things to be cruel and vicious about than some stupid record.

― The Saga of Rodney Stooksbury (rushomancy), Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:36 (eight years ago)

I've never written a record review, but the only sort of negative review I can imagine wanting to write would be one of an artist whose work I've previously liked. I'd need to have that much investment in the material.

― jmm, Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:41 (eight years ago)

also like it's fine to say you'd like to read more negative reviews of stuff that's so obscure it only gets written about by people praising it, but how is a publication supposed to organically find this sort of review? sounds like a recipe for infuriating hot-takes. what if there aren't people out there who actively hate a given thing? it's prob pretty likely for obscure stuff. i think if the original piece had called for better quality of negative reviews as some itt have, that'd be interesting, but as it stands now things most likely to get slated are the things which have been hyped. these "bootings" are just the other side of the same coin.

xpost

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:42 (eight years ago)

i also think the original piece carries an implication, all too common, that somehow other people's positive opinions are deceitful, fraudulent, or not to be trusted.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:43 (eight years ago)

That opinion is like the version of the Yelp reviewer who rails against a new restaurant and suggests all the positive takes come from friends of the owner or are bought and paid for.

― nomar, Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:46 (eight years ago)

when i hate music, it's generally because somebody is making me listen to it when i don't want to. i mean i could write a review about how gary wilson is a total creeper, but when i go on the train nobody is blasting "6.4 = makeout" at me.

― The Saga of Rodney Stooksbury (rushomancy), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:09 (eight years ago)

I want a good writer to explain why h/she finds an album, film, or book terrible. That's what I want from criticism.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:13 (eight years ago)

to add to that - it can be a lot of fun to pan a record, more than it can be to praise a record you like, and when i was younger, before i got burned out on the genre, i enjoyed a good critical lashing as much as anyone. these days i find it more interesting to write mixed reviews of albums that acknowledge both their flaws and successes. such reviews are harder to write, less fun to read, and often lack a "hook", though.

― The Saga of Rodney Stooksbury (rushomancy), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:14 (eight years ago)

it's way more fun cos it's so much easier

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:17 (eight years ago)

a thoughtful negative review may be even harder than an interesting positive one though, granted, at least it'd appear that way given rarity.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:17 (eight years ago)

That some people just want to flex their arch-cynic persona, rather than honestly engage with Shed 7 - The B-sides, is quite understandable. But Luke seems to be asking for f/t "whistle-blowers" on everything that he thinks is shite in that piece.

― calzino, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:22 (eight years ago)

Are record reviews qualitatively different than film reviews? The most famous movie critics from the '60s and '70s, I could cite any number of negative reviews that are among their most passionate and well written.

(To answer my own question, there might be. Music is more abstract, more subjective I'd say, and harder to pin down with explanations.)

― clemenza, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:24 (eight years ago)

i think actually a lot of negative film writing is garbage, for example there was this recent shitty Dave Holmes piece about Valerian kind of epitomizing a lot of what i dislike about that kind of take on movies, and a lot of film writers are just wholly trash (Armond White a prime example), but i think really nasty film reviews can be better are their targets have it coming more often, since there are fewer movies, they're usually representative of something beyond themselves, and especially when the work is a cautiously released and corporate-tested entity i don't have the same level of sympathy or empathy and don't feel the need to meet halfway, say, Michael Bay's racist characterizations in a movie about giant robots.

― nomar, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:32 (eight years ago)

This piece was whatever, and Brad's point about true engagement almost automatically torpedoing the binnings of yore is a salient one. (I often dive into archives for my teaching gig, and trust me: Music writing is so much better than it was even 15 years ago, even if it still has a lot of problems.)

As far as "where did all the negative reviews go" musings, there are a couple of factors at work here.

• The way not just music, but all journalism has developed since the rise of real-time analytics—and, more crucially, the altering of browsing habits so that most peoples' "homepage" is a platform (usually Facebook, sometimes Twitter, maybe even Instagram?) that they lazily scroll down looking for bits of news on their friends and the world outside their friend group—means that promotion is just as important as actually filing a piece, maybe even more since going "viral" can potentially increase per-piece ROI. The best ways to promote are then:
a) position it with a headline that prompts the sort of sharing that will double as a badge of identity ("we need to talk about," etc - this is where most of the truly bad thinkpieces have their origins)
b) overblow the opinion in one direction so that it gets a clickable headline, since 'this record is fine, whatever" isn't exactly an enticing stance. inchoate anger is great, and so is fawning praise, because the third option is...
c) get the subject(s) to retweet the piece, since people following them presumably *want* to read the results of successive 15-minute phoners / praise and justification for their fandom.

• The collective effect of neutral-to-sorta-positive reviews being collected (on aggregate sites like Metacritic and in the minds of people reading a lot about one album at a time), where a lot of "this is ok-to-good" reactions can feel like an overbearing "LISTEN TO THIS NOW." This has only gotten more cacophonnic with album release day being a worldwide thing.

• The absurd workloads of editors, who need the copy they work with to be clean, concise, and not bogged down by argument-related shittiness (unless it can be parlayed into stoking the fires of anger, in which case bring it on)

• The "pivot to video" resulting in outlets needing to play even nicer, since it's not like you'll get a lot of ad revenue from having writers on camera, so you need to play nice with "talent" (the MTV News anecdotes are a harbinger of "cultivated relationships" to come)

• Money and the ever-increasing reliance on freelancers. Why would publications, all of which are having their editorial budgets crushed in some way or another, want to shell out cash for something that—and this is a mercenary way of looking at writing, I know, but you have to be when your bosses are giving you barely enough cash to publish four pieces a week, let alone 15 or more—would either amount to the shruggie emoji or trash something that few people don't *want* to see ripped to shreds? And see the aforementioned tweet, and think about how freelancers are more disposable and if they fuck something up big (either on a factual level or a "we'll never work with you again" level) they can have bait cut on them way more easily.

It all sucks, I know. (Sorry for chiming in, I know I shouldn't exist. But there are a lot of market forces at work here that go way beyond "wow sellouts.")

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:35 (eight years ago)

https://twitter.com/search?q=arcade%20fire%20sucks

so ded

― sleepingbag, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:39 (eight years ago)

The collective effect of neutral-to-sorta-positive reviews being collected (on aggregate sites like Metacritic and in the minds of people reading a lot about one album at a time), where a lot of "this is ok-to-good" reactions can feel like an overbearing "LISTEN TO THIS NOW." This has only gotten more cacophonnic with album release day being a worldwide thing.

^ this

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:43 (eight years ago)

what examples of honest/thoughtful negative reviews would ppl suggest? ppl seemed to like that Laura Snapes review of the Ed Sheeran album in Pitchfork, imo that didn't come off as dishonest, disengaged or hyperbolic (but I guess an Ed Sheeran fan may feel differently?) (that review is all about Sheeran's alleged dishonesty and disingenuous) (I think that, in that case, after reading dozens of ppl saying that Ed Sheeran was awful, it was nice to read someone put into words exactly how and why he is awful?)

― soref, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:44 (eight years ago)

Jeremy Larson's dismissal of Arcade Fire yesterday.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:47 (eight years ago)

yes

― nomar, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:48 (eight years ago)

He presented himself as a betrayed lover, but he likes them more than I ever did.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:51 (eight years ago)

In my very humble opinion, and being mindful of my own hypocrisy, any critic of any human effort should probably keep the 10/80/10 curve in mind - most things are okay, some things are truly reprehensible, some things are stupendous. And secretly, when everything seems to be awful and uninteresting and rote, hold to the hope inside of Sturgeon's Law - 10% of everything is (probably) not crap.

A critic's careful judgement and adroit penmanship should be deployed when gross perspective is wrong about something - when a popular thing is actually in the bottom tenth of terrible, or when something goes ignored that deserves acclaim. Don't waste all that thought and energy on reminding people that the 80% that is middling is merely middling. We know.

― El Tomboto, Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:02 (eight years ago)

what examples of honest/thoughtful negative reviews would ppl suggest?

I'll go back to old film reviews--sorry, just don't keep up with record reviewing any more.

Pauline Kael on A Clockwork Orange, The Exorcist, Raging Bull, Roger & Me, Born on the Fourth July...there are so many. I don't agree with all of those, but I think they constitute great writing.

A bunch by Stanley Kauffmann, too, but I'd have to give that more thought.

― clemenza, Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:11 (eight years ago)

Tom I think you're right to a point. And unfortunately the mechanics of publishing mean that space needs to be filled on a regular basis.

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:16 (eight years ago)

that's where i definitely don't know what i'm talking about. i should probably thank some animist deity on a periodic basis that i don't have to chase the clicks.

― El Tomboto, Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:23 (eight years ago)

i should probably thank some animist deity on a periodic basis that i don't have to chase the clicks.

Yeah, I'm really glad I don't have to worry about that stuff. I mean, if enough people aren't reading my jazz column for Stereogum, they'll stop publishing it, and that's fine, but that's as close as I get to market-based writing at this point.

As far as that "write more negative reviews!" piece, it's a bunch of insecure posturing from a dude whose own site is full of shit more often than not. I've told the story here before of how they only wanted me to review the new Metallica album if I could guarantee that I'd put the boot in. (I didn't get the gig. Someone else did.)

― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:36 (eight years ago)

As the arc of my career-as-such has gone, it went from college paper reviews and features to the AMG reviews and via that the various scattered reviews and features I've done as a result. The AMG work, in a way, illustrated the 10/80/10 split Tom noted -- difference being that the very nature of the AMG invited coverage of the 80 in detail as well, to have an accounting for, well, all music, or as much as could be found. Reviewed a LOT of middling indie rock of the 2000s, but I didn't rant about them, more like 'how many ways can I say "meh."'

Of course I did have my vivisections. My Stylus column was about looking at the leftovers, but if something provided an honest surprise I happily said so. But there was a lot of junk, and unlike the AMG approach, I could avoid an objective tone in favor of "ARRGH." I remember both Momus and Grady talking on here about not fully being on board with that but as Alfred said, there's a value in explaining why you hate something if you can do it well. (See also the Neil Tennant essay from 92 re the power of hate as a focus, artistically and elsewhere.)

As my post AMG writing career has settled into my groove of a few pieces here and there per month -- backed up, as I have always been, by the luxury of my full time job, utterly unrelated to music criticism or the for-profit world -- I can afford to pick and choose, quite literally, and these days I'm simply not interested in chasing everything down to opine on it all. Or more accurately there isn't time for it. (The fact that I can't easily listen to albums as much at my SF job as I used to in OC also is a big factor.) In ways I think I've explained my aesthetic enough on the one hand -- as much to myself as to any regular readers I have -- and on the other I'm much more content to read others' writing on music new and old (especially when talented younger writers take a look at older music and its accompanying cliches and assumptions around it to ask if it shouldn't be viewed differently instead -- an important part of sociopolitical evaluation and review well beyond music).

So sure I could write something about how, I don't know, I'd rather have my ears ripped off than have to entertain [insert EDM macho bro of choice here] any more than I have to, or how I wish Father John Misty did his trip to Big Sur, had a revelation that he was on the verge of being an obnoxious mediocrity, and chucked it all in to settle down and raise bees. For a start. But I don't feel like wasting more words than that on the matter and I'd rather do something like my NPR Algiers piece and try and unpack the context and creation of what I feel is a remarkable album in detail.

Negative criticism absolutely has a place. It simply can't and shouldn't just be schtick.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:42 (eight years ago)

is it too obvious to point out that assigning value on a scale is among the least interesting or even helpful things a critic can do? (worth remembering anyway, maybe). i can't get enough of reviews that help me hear what fans of a musician hear, even - especially? - when i'm not a fan myself

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:54 (eight years ago)

Having to assign values (stars, numbers, whatever)...just horrid. Have always hated it, and am glad I barely have to do it anymore.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:56 (eight years ago)

I've only ever had to do it at two places - Alternative Press and AMG - and in both cases, I can't remember a single numerical rating I assigned anything.

― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:57 (eight years ago)

Part of me kinda wishes The Wire would assign numerical scores to albums, just because it would be hilarious.

― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 19:57 (eight years ago)

"284.15, as scored in the hexadecimal system on the planet Tharg."

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:00 (eight years ago)

It's even worse for writers, since hardcore fans latch on only to scores and have their angry tweets at the ready if they feel their fave has been slighted.

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:04 (eight years ago)

(I got slammed for being a "longtime Lana hater" because 3.5 stars appeared above my LUST FOR LIFE review in RS.)

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:05 (eight years ago)

You're not? (Seriously; I feel like everything I've read about her with your byline has been "meh"-to-"ugh.")

― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:07 (eight years ago)

Ha, Maura's story reminds me of something I was thinking about last night at OMD -- when I reviewed this album for Pitchfork:

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/17843-orchestral-manoeuvres-in-the-dark-english-electric/

I spent nearly all of it pointing out how it was simultaneously a really lovely album and ultimately one that didn't develop their now considerable legacy, merely providing refinements. It came out and a slew of OMD fanatics only noticed the score and had a meltdown. Still irritated about that.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:08 (eight years ago)

It's even worse for movies.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:10 (eight years ago)

Imagine explaining how some terrible movies should be seen and argued about.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:11 (eight years ago)

i actually gave HONEYMOON a good review when it came out.

also this should go without saying but being a "hater" and being "meh to ugh" are not the same thing.

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:13 (eight years ago)

Well, I can't stand the term "hater" anyway; anyone who uses it falls into the same bucket of slime where I leave people who refer to women as "females." But (and I haven't read your Honeymoon review but would love a link) what I have read of yours re LDR has always given me the impression that you strongly dislike her work and creative persona but are occasionally able to muster grudging respect for an individual track or something, here and there. In fact, I admit to having wondered why you keep engaging with her work. If I felt about an artist the way your writing makes me think you feel about LDR, I would simply stop listening, and certainly stop writing about them.

― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:19 (eight years ago)

Ha, Maura's story reminds me of something I was thinking about last night at OMD -- when I reviewed this album for Pitchfork:

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/17843-orchestral-manoeuvres-in-the-dark-english-electric/

I spent nearly all of it pointing out how it was simultaneously a really lovely album and ultimately one that didn't develop their now considerable legacy, merely providing refinements. It came out and a slew of OMD fanatics only noticed the score and had a meltdown. Still irritated about that.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, July 29, 2017 8:08 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You shoulda seen how the OMD hardcore reacted when John Doran didn't like the album before... he was essentually accused of having an agenda, despite writing about the band positively elsewhere as you have done...

― The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:25 (eight years ago)

xp

My opinion on her has changed since the early days of Interscope trying to play pretindie with their "secret shows" at Glasslands and Insta-filtered live shots. I thought people were being too harsh on her SNL performance, although I also loathed how laconic her vocal approach was on BORN TO DIE.

Probably notable: When I was more alienated from her work I had a staff job and a place where I could contour out my opinions more freely. As this exchange indicates, it's much more difficult to build a body of work and a critical profile when one's pieces are scattered all over the place.

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:27 (eight years ago)

*essentially

(xp)

― The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:28 (eight years ago)

(And why do I write about her? Because that's what editors want.)

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:28 (eight years ago)

lol "pretindie"

i didn't even mean star ratings or scores as such, just the whole concept of "good" vs "bad" consumer reports style is so weird to me. i guess it made sense when people had to buy music unheard. but the idea of proclaiming a "verdict" on like, the new rae sremmurd or LDR album is so ridiculous to me

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:37 (eight years ago)

I really like in depth music criticism and history and over time have come to value the opinions of young people as expressed though professional writing less and less. I know we're not talking about it now but the original thread topic had me thinking: I almost only want to read music writing from adults

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:57 (eight years ago)

Not adults who pose as Adults in the sense of inveighing on the pop of the day in a condescending bourgeoise tasteful sense but like as an example, a Brad Nelson review I will probably read and enjoy. I mean unless ur the next Carson McCullers your opinions are great but I probably won't glean insight from your efforts to articulate them

This is probably not a v popular opinion but I'm ok w it as polemical ilx posts go lol

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:00 (eight years ago)

*your efforts to articulate them *at age 22*

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:01 (eight years ago)

Obv I encourage young ppl to work at it, I'm just saying I think this thread has the dynamic of criticism upside down

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:02 (eight years ago)

Agree with the above 100%. When I read a headline like "We Need To Talk About (Album)" my immediate response is, "I had that conversation 20 years ago, thanks but no thanks."

― grawlix (unperson), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:15 (eight years ago)

you guys hate millennials, it's ok you can say it.

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:19 (eight years ago)

i'm cool w/honest well thought out responses from "millennials" but hot takes without actual intelligence behind them are basically "we showed these four year olds modern art and this is what they had to say"

― nomar, Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:22 (eight years ago)

I am a millennial

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:36 (eight years ago)

When I think about the best critics I've read in any field, their best/most interesting/well developed stuff was largely produced in their 30s +

I mean idk what say Richard Brody's movie reviews were like in his 20s but I love them now & I don't see age being a barrier for me to keep reading him as he gets older

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:38 (eight years ago)

i'm cool w/honest well thought out responses from "millennials" but hot takes without actual intelligence behind them are basically "we showed these four year olds modern art and this is what they had to say"

― nomar, Saturday, July 29, 2017 4:22 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I too am cool w those well thought out responses *in theory* altho I think they're a lot less common than ppl would like to believe. Also, tbf, the editorial hand is very weak right now and a great editor would probably be key in younger writers developing their critical voices early

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:43 (eight years ago)

Phil: I sent you an email entitled: "How do you feel about the new Metallica album?" setting out why - on first instincts - I totally thought it should get a negative review, in what I felt was a jokily OTT manner - hoping to have some sort of discussion with you about it but definitely expecting you to respect a writer/editor relationship and for it to go no further. I was genuinely up for having you change my mind on this matter though - I'm not saying it happens on a weekly basis but it does happen, say, once a month. I had every right to be nervous about you as a potential first time writer for us given that I know you don't really like or respect tQ or me (as a writer or editor) and have been vocal about this in the past. And there it was literally the same day - your issue not taken up with me in the first place but taken straight to a thread for Metallica fans on a message board. I like you as a reviewer, I totally get that you're committed to what you do and I'd still like you to write for us in an ideal world but you insisting on treating this incident like it's Watergate is weak sauce imo. Regular and trusted writers for us get total free reign. Loads of them post here. Go ahead and ask them if you want - there are probably in the region of 15 people. (Any kind of interference is extremely rare. I'm still trying to live down the shame I feel that we ran an absolute drubbing of a really good documentary THAT MY FRIENDS MADE simply because I didn't want to stick my oar in.) None of us interfere with any of the columns at any level - and next to none of the reviews (but there are obvious cases where it would be mad for us not to know in advance what the reviewer thinks of an album, if Luke and I think Monoliths + Dimensions is a clear shoe in for album of the year, we'd be idiots to give the review to someone who hates it). I absolutely have to tread gingerly round new writers for obvious reasons and make no apology for sounding them out thoroughly in the first, second and third etc instances. We've done everything on a position of trust at tQ - I already work an 80 hour week, paying myself less than minimum wage to do the tQ portion of that [world's smallest violin etc.] and yet, even though we're closer to a fanzine than we are to P4k or Uncut, I still found myself having to learn about adding legal disclaimers to emails after this incident. You know - clearly, in retrospect I overstepped the mark and disrespected you as a professional which I'm deeply regretful about - but you not coming to me in the first place and twisting this to make me look like some dead-eyed moral bankrupt is bang out of order, not to mention extremely hurtful.

To the poster above: those negative reviews are the hardest to write. I had to do a Q and A onstage with Andy McCluskey after the OMD drubbing. It was one of the most difficult hours of my professional life. And then there was the Simple Minds review... Jesus. Apparently some Australian radio DJ read it out to Jim Kerr and they had an actual fight on air. And the worst thing about all of this stuff is these people are my childhood heroes. I take absolutely no pleasure in it whatsoever. In fact I find it quite distressing.

― Doran, Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:54 (eight years ago)

Ok what

― El Tomboto, Saturday, 29 July 2017 21:57 (eight years ago)

I think millennials are fine. I'm more wary of people in my generational cohort and older treating them as if they're The Blob.

― maura, Saturday, 29 July 2017 22:00 (eight years ago)

Do you know what? I'm actually really struggling at the moment due to a recent diagnosis of Mild Traumatic Brain Injury, which I only received on Friday after a road accident last November, which has put my ability to keep on doing tQ or carry on writing full stop into question, hence me getting upset in public about something I should be ignoring. I'd really appreciate it if someone could delete this post and the post above. I'm genuinely not in my right state of mind at the moment. Thanks.

― Doran, Saturday, 29 July 2017 22:10 (eight years ago)

Hey, I'm sorry. I was just being an Internet Dickhead because I don't know enough of the context to connect your last post to what others were talking about. I don't know you from Adam or Eve, but I do hope your days get better from here and I didn't really mean anything by that post. Should have put it on the "second thought about" thread. Or nowhere at all.

― El Tomboto, Saturday, 29 July 2017 22:30 (eight years ago)

No foul. I shouldn't be on the internet at the moment. It's my own lookout. And thanks.

― Doran, Saturday, 29 July 2017 22:34 (eight years ago)

I'll just say I really love the Quietus and appreciate what you do

― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 30 July 2017 00:16 (eight years ago)

<3 JD

― maura, Sunday, 30 July 2017 01:43 (eight years ago)

Heavy third to that.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 30 July 2017 01:53 (eight years ago)

Though it's written by a movie critic, I thought this article provided some interesting insight into the reviewing/rating process. He talks about exactly what the difference is between a two-star and a three-star movie, etc.

― grawlix (unperson), Sunday, 30 July 2017 14:02 (eight years ago)

Speaking as an "artist" in another medium, I love good journalism and criticism. It has regularly opened my eyes to seeing things differently and informed my creativity. Carry on, jurnos.

― yesca, Sunday, 30 July 2017 14:14 (eight years ago)

how much of "music journalism" is album reviews at this point, anyway? It seems like what people pay attention to (or at least what I see people post about on fb) are interviews or concert or festival reviews. The only album reviews I see getting shared are by obscure acts mostly in the vein of, "Hey someone actually published something about us!"

But I'm not a music journalist, so *shruggy emoticon*

― sarahell, Monday, 31 July 2017 01:15 (eight years ago)

... okay, also obituaries and "scene reports" -- but seriously, I don't really think very many people I know read reviews of widely available popular music, because they can just listen to it themselves for free with nominal effort. Who cares what some writer thinks.

― sarahell, Monday, 31 July 2017 01:20 (eight years ago)

^ yeah. Only time I read a review of something is if it's a new record by an artist I'm psyched about and cannot help but want to know what it sounds like ahead of time.

― Week of Wonders (Ross), Monday, 31 July 2017 01:44 (eight years ago)

Obituaries, definitely. Number-one growth industry after wind power.

― clemenza, Monday, 31 July 2017 01:46 (eight years ago)

the original piece sort of tiptoed around this, but there's something very demoralizing about how how this whole discussion cycle started with Kings of Leon and Chance waging proxy-wars-via-employers on twentysomething writers over some "offensive" mildly critical reviews of their work, yet music writers receive far worse pretty much every time they publish anything that isn't glowing (or if it's glowing about the "wrong" artist) and they're told to just get a thicker skin

― sick, fucking funny, and well tasty (katherine), Monday, 31 July 2017 01:54 (eight years ago)

Whoa man

Brutal words from new MTV president Chris McCarthy re: MTV News, whose staff he fired. It's from this NYT profile: https://t.co/u7aottjQmX pic.twitter.com/9IGAJIviCs

— Andy Dehnart (@realityblurred) July 30, 2017

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 31 July 2017 03:14 (eight years ago)

Though it's written by a movie critic, I thought this article provided some interesting insight into the reviewing/rating process. He talks about exactly what the difference is between a two-star and a three-star movie, etc.

― grawlix (unperson), 30. juli 2017 16:02 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wow, I hated hated hated that article. Zero stars. So wrongheaded about criticism. Though I guess I'm lucky that I pick and choose my reviews as well, so I don't have to think about how Kevin Smith would fit into my rating system. But this description of a four-star film is horrible and convinces me I never need to read that critic:

Every so often, though, I don't have anything to complain about. (It's rare, I know.) The movie starts clearly, and with a strong point of view. The actors disappear into their characters, and the characters have their own emotional logic. The plot is intriguing as it unfolds -- and yet afterwards, often seems inevitable, because it springs directly from the way these people would act. The cinematography and editing and music are both artistic and modest - serving the story stylishly while never only calling attention to themselves.

― Frederik B, Monday, 31 July 2017 09:46 (eight years ago)

i bet that guy's a blast on tindr

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 31 July 2017 19:40 (eight years ago)

... okay, also obituaries and "scene reports" -- but seriously, I don't really think very many people I know read reviews of widely available popular music, because they can just listen to it themselves for free with nominal effort. Who cares what some writer thinks.

― sarahell, Sunday, July 30, 2017 9:20 PM (six days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Reviews, historically, were probably only useful within the narrow purview of music nerds - and most people aren't hardcore music nerds - but I still utilize them to figure out who to check out among the vast array of new-to-me artists. I kind of agree with you about artists you already have affection for; no matter what the reviews are for the new War on Drugs record, for example, I'm going to check it out.

― Rod Steel (musicfanatic), Saturday, 5 August 2017 23:21 (eight years ago)

three months pass...

welp looks like MTV.com laying off good writers and pivoting to video is really paying off!!

https://s7.postimg.org/oio71kbuz/mtv-stats.jpg

― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 28 November 2017 21:01 (eight years ago)

three years pass...

Cool, cool

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/23/rolling-stone-magazine-culture-council-publication?fbclid=IwAR130Avc5Rgsem1uKWf6l3HLnB70iSzBvzVaqI9Nx0n6WFoNEA1aTz1OSTo

― Everything's Blue In This Whorl (Raymond Cummings), Saturday, 23 January 2021 11:43 (five years ago)

Ugh

― Next Time Might Be Hammer Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 23 January 2021 11:51 (five years ago)

At least they've been marking them off separately.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 23 January 2021 13:33 (five years ago)

Rolling Stone seeks wallet council to submit for inspection

― the scamp has a thousand fries (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 23 January 2021 13:42 (five years ago)

Every thought leader needs their thought sheeple tbf - just boycott this shitrag and encourage everyone else to do so imo

― imago, Saturday, 23 January 2021 13:44 (five years ago)

wow going the Forbes route

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 23 January 2021 15:00 (five years ago)

One of the best writers I know is an editor at Rolling Stone right now. I honestly feel bad for him, going down with the ship like this.

― but also fuck you (unperson), Saturday, 23 January 2021 15:04 (five years ago)

I dealt with a couple of RS contributing editors recently and they seemed liked pretty good guys as some others that knew them confirmed. Hint: the two of them are best friends since college.

― Next Time Might Be Hammer Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 23 January 2021 15:10 (five years ago)

i think im gonna do it

― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Saturday, 23 January 2021 15:17 (five years ago)

idk just for a year or two, see if it gets my followers up

― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Saturday, 23 January 2021 15:18 (five years ago)

O_O

― Inside there's a box and that box has another box within (Sund4r), Saturday, 23 January 2021 15:30 (five years ago)

https://amp.?fbclid=IwAR130Avc5Rgsem1uKWf6l3HLnB70iSzBvzVaqI9Nx0n6WFoNEA1aTz1OSTo


man I hate it when journalistic outlets run into financial straits in the current publishing environment

― shivers me timber (sic), Saturday, 23 January 2021 17:00 (five years ago)

lol

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:27 (five years ago)

The answer for this thread title is “no but it should be”

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:48 (five years ago)

Otm.

― meticulously crafted, socially responsible, morally upsta (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:48 (five years ago)

Looked up the lyrics for "Cover of the Rolling Stone" and made an attempt at a Rob Sheffield-style rewrite. ("Thoreau is like Ralph Emerson/Ralph Emerson is what I read!") Quickly gave up--virtually impossible to work in "Just to be clear, you'll be paying them."

― clemenza, Saturday, 23 January 2021 19:14 (five years ago)

Rolling Stone rescinded my job offer after I attempted to negotiate the salary. https://t.co/FVRCQRKaaN

— kate lindsay (@kathrynfiona) January 22, 2021

― Everything's Blue In This Whorl (Raymond Cummings), Monday, 25 January 2021 13:22 (five years ago)

I don't know if anyone gets Todd Burns' Substack newsletter, but this was pretty funny in this morning's:

Corrections Department

Last week, I wrote that Rolling Stone is paying thought leaders to write for them. It is, in fact, the opposite. Rolling Stone is asking thought leaders to pay Rolling Stone to write for the magazine. Which is, uh, quite a difference.

― clemenza, Monday, 1 February 2021 16:06 (five years ago)

three months pass...

OnThisDay 1978: The Clash’s Joe Strummer and Rick Wakeman from Yes discussed the press with music journalists Nick Kent and Ray Coleman. pic.twitter.com/dGfF2SbX4e

— BBC Archive (@BBCArchive) May 20, 2021

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 May 2021 13:35 (four years ago)

three years pass...

https://variety.com/2024/digital/news/mtv-news-website-archives-pulled-offline-1236047163/

― Marten Broadcloak, mild-mannered GOP congressman (Raymond Cummings), Monday, 24 June 2024 22:40 (one year ago)

Not good

― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 25 June 2024 13:26 (one year ago)


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