Cannibal Ox - C or D

That said, I've accepted The Cold Vein as a challenge, and will keep listening until, hopefully, it will all click into place.

most of that i chalk up to el-p's very layered, analog sounding production. it's very unique and different from the jazzy, digital production that seems to be driving hip hop this year and last.

of course vast aire is completely insane and doesn't leave you much room to think but i guess that's just his style.

definitely not dud, but way too early to say classic.

but el-p's solo, erm, lp is even better...

In other words: AESOP ROCK I WANNA HAVE HIS BABIES HE'S SO DREAMY OOO OOO

From what I've heard, El-P's "Fantastic Damage" is even harsher... somewhere between Cannibal Ox and Techno Animal, which is somewhat of a thin space to begin with. Most of the time it sounds like El-P's rapping in an electric chair or a trash compactor or both or something or another.

Also, there's something about 'Cold Vein' makes me think that it would appeal less to seasoned 'trad' hip-hop listeners, who seem to prefer Aesop Rock - the lyrical trickery on a lighter production. Reynolds described C.O. as like a sort of heavy metal group in VV review. And there's definately elements that appeal to the WIRE crowd in there. Personally, I find the darkness of C.O. makes the record, best thing on Def Jux so far...

!!!

Compared to Company Flow's MCs, especially El-P, Vast and Vordul are like liquid butterscotch! Plus El-P's production is 8.7 times better on 'The Cold Vein.'

I was disappointed by "Labor Days". For some reason I thought that, after Cannibal Ox, the Def Jux label would carve out this intricate masterpiece with Aesop Rock in their hands but the album isn't that much of a departure from "Float". As much as I enjoy Aesop's idiosyncracy, his tracks too often come across as fancy (and forgettable) mic gymnastics beating around vague themes. Too much circumventing, I suppose.

I feel like the Cannibal Ox MCs have a bunch of lines that are incredibly potent, but about half are really tossed off. Aesop Rock hits damn close to 100% for me-- I can always understand where his lines are coming from rhythmically, and every word seems carefully chosen to fit into a larger context, with syllables strategically placed for emphasis, alliteration, etc. I appreciate that Aesop Rock seems like by far the most meticulous of the three MCs.

I think that's the reason I like him *less*, interestingly enough. The "tossed-off" lines from Can-Ox MCs make the great ones all the more crushing. Honda is pretty OTM with his "mic gymnastics" comment; listening to AR can be like watching a really skilled gymnast: "Oooh, wow, another perfectly executed double flip with a half-twist! Oh, look at that perfect form!" It can get tiresome, at least to me.

Otie, I swear I'm gonna finish that Susie Ibarra review.

i seriously have no idea how you could say that. this might be cannibal ox's first full album but i understand they're definitely not to it (i read 8 years with the atoms fam in an interview). i love aesop but cannibal ox just grabs my attention more... in my opinion this is the most listenable cd since 3rd eye vision.

i think you should listen to it for a while or leave it alone and come back to it, cuz i didnt like the cold vein when i first heard it. once you catch the groove of it its the freshest shit in the universe...

WHAAT!? how much farther from gangsta rap could cann ox possibly be? some people on here have pretty strong opinions for how well they can reason... vast aire and vordul grew up in uptown new york, they have a right to talk about it, and they present a different viewpoint on it; besides that, its not really their main topic.

As for the gig, my heart sank for first two minutes ... "YEAH YEAH CANNIBAL OX CANNIBAL OX MAKE SOME MOTHERFUCKIN' NOISE! ETCET" ... but it soon got going. Good, but not great. Main problem: Vast Aire has a really unique voice which I really enjoy listening to, but when he's bellowing into a mike he sounds like Heavy D or summat.

Watch as I get pointed and laughed at as I say that The Cold Vein was my favorite album of 2001, though I'm not 100% sure why beyond "wow it's like Wu-Tang only with Philip K. Dick instead of kung-fu" and "damn El-P makes some crazy sounds" and "'life is mean/and death is the median/and purgatory is the mode that we settle in'- oh damn".

"boy meets world, of course his pops is gone, what you figure? that chalky outline on the ground is a father figure? so he steps to the next stencil, thats a hustler, infested with money and diamond cluster..."

Rhymes this dense and textured you can never get bored of, or tire of their endless invention.

I found Can Ox to be quite easy to listen to. I mean, their melodic and repetitve in all the right ways, its just some of the verbosity in the lyrics and the un-hip hopness of the sounds in the production which could be off putting. To be honest, although he's in danger of becoming a bit of a cliche, EL-P is a genius, a producer on the level of the most hardcore abstract electronica (i read somewhere Autechre were big fans of co. flow) but with the funk element never missing.

Think what you like, but "The Cold Vein" is imho a masterwork to which nothing can compare within hip hop.

Fantastic Damage sounds fucking excellent as well, with Step Father factory standing out as possibly the best track EL-P's ever produced. Dripping with sadness and mechanised horror, like Grandmaster Flash's brave new future turned to shit.

Aesop Rock? a bit cleaner, more positive, less transcendental. less dense, i guess it all comes down to which aesthetic you prefer. Aesop is good, damn good, and no doubt about it, but the harsher, darker vibes of co.flow/ can ox/ EL-P just suit my personal tastes. out.

According to hiphopsite, Cannibal Ox have LEFT Dex Jux and Vast Aire's solo record is coming out on Chocolate!

http://www.hiphopsite.com/NEWS/

Merz for Cannibal Ox = a lopsided trade of Kenny Williams proportions

(I need at least one person to get my Kenny Williams joke.)

Arg.

The Madlib joints are nice though...all 3 of them.

-- Ethan Padgett (...), May 21st, 2004.

They seem to lack the basic flow and listenability of Company Flow, Aesop Rock, etc.

That's one of the things I like about it.

I don't know if I'd like the new album as much as their first even if it dropped next week, mostly because the circumstances under which I got into The Cold Vein (shitty Minnesota Winter + immediate post-9/11 nerves + unemployment) are sort of an unreplicatable confluence of music/bad feelings working with each other.

google turns up nothing.

ive tried to love cann ox as much as i love the beats but i just think vast is one of the worst rappers ever. much much too smug. i like him more now, like on the songs hes done with dabrye, but he sounds so annoying on the cold vein. shame, cos i think vordul is amazing (even though he sounds a lot like scaramanga, but not in a derivative way, just a similar style of flow).

el-p is an absolute genius on the production though. the instrumentals of TCV get more play from me than the proper album. i almost want to put some raekwon (or someone equally dense) accapellas over the instrumentals.

Pigeon is in my all time top hip-hop songs at this point

Am I a terrible person for thinking this is some of the more compelling hip-hop I've heard? Jess to thread maybe, with guns

yeah I mean they have highly experimental production and weird noises so it's fucking indie isn't it ban me from ILX and throw away the key

the Sonned By A White Kid In A AOL Beef thread should bring you all the context you need.

...on ilx whiteboy hardman identity crises

Cold Vein is a great album, just don't fret about contextualizing it. Perhaps it'd be safest to say it's a LJ-friendly sound right?

hahaha and now my hip-hop-mad brother has just played me some Dalek as well with the assurance that it's 'my kind of thing'....yes it is

There's a bunch of the denser-produced Indie stuff you'd probably enjoy if you haven't heard it. I think shit only gets heated when people start making grand pronouncements about its relationship with lol Real Hip Hop but then most of those MCs spend most of their time doing just that.

yeah I'm not gonna do that. great thing about jagger jr is that he listens to all this stuff, Indie or no, with the attitude that if it's good he'll like it, while remaining keenly aware of the context it's made in - dude knows his shit

LJ it hardly needs to be said if you dig this you should also check Fantastic Damage, a record some ppl absolutely despise for its pretensions but is in fact hella awesome.

shall do. and look, ethan's not around to rip me!

Don't worry, deej will be by in a minute

man this Dalek shit is so awesome; not trolling

Fucking KNEW this would be Louis going DefJux nuts.

Have you heard Synthesizer by OutKast off Aquemini?

If you like Cannibal Ox and Dälek, you should check out Divine Styler - he does some excellent dystopic/psychedelic sci-fi rap, though his work is also very much influenced by Islamic mysticism.

^^^will be on it

My brother has hooked me up with all sorts of awesome-sounding hip-hop including Outkast's early works, Dr Octagon, CunningLynguists etc...along with some more 'classic' stuff...will work my way through it!

Speaking of CanOx, The Cold Vein is really, truly awesome...Iron Galaxy especially is just...wow

soundbombing vol 1 imo

sole's pretty good too

I know Tuomas would 2nd recommendation for Rubberroom's Architechnology, which ups the intensity. The team who produced it, The Opus, have put out a few solo albums, but I haven't gotten around to checking them out. Can you do instrumental stuff? If so, search Blockhead.

so lj hasn't heard labor days yet?

um...no...

great record. you'd probably like it.

it's added to the list

Don't know why I assumed you had. (It's produced by Blockhead)

I know Tuomas would 2nd recommendation for Rubberroom's Architechnology, which ups the intensity. The team who produced it, The Opus, have put out a few solo albums, but I haven't gotten around to checking them out. Can you do instrumental stuff? If so, search Blockhead.

Yeah, Architechnology is a pretty intense album indeed! If you want to listen to some heavy and aggressive sci-fi rap, that's definitely recommended. I have the first album by The Opus too, but it's not particularly good. I don't think their beats just work that well without rappers. There's one dope tune with Slug from Atmosphere on that album though.

On the instrumental tinge, there's also Little Johnny from the Hospital by Company Flow, which is a full album of instrumentals by El-P, the guy who did the beats for Cold Vein. Personally I don't much like El-P's pre-Cold Vein beats (and I've never liked him as a rapper), but I know some folks rate the Company Flow stuff pretty high. (Anybody want to buy my copies of their two albums?)

Still amazed at that Rubberroom album making it's way to Finland, pre-MP3 era. It was out of print and impossible to find even in their hometown Chicago almost immediately after being released.

I bought it at a local record store which specialized in experimental and underground music (and which sadly doesn't exist anymore), I have no idea how the album ended up there. Maybe the record store guy heard the Rubberoom tune on this compilation and got interested? That comp was where I first heard of them, I really liked the tune on it, so I went looking for the album.

Fucking KNEW this would be Louis going DefJux nuts.

^^^^^^^^^^^

it's got interesting production, but the songs are totally forgettable IMHO. Works best as an instrumental soundscape to accompany long nighttime walks through post-apocalyptic wastelands.

yeah The Cold Vein is straight incredible

Don't worry, deej will be by in a minute

― batlike darkwing cartoonduck (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 1 April 2010 21:04 (3 days ago)

damn what is with you always having my name in your mouth lately? u sound hella insecure. fyi i dig can ox & fwiw always liked fandam more. you still have shit taste in rap, though

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YOU GONNA TAKE THAT?

while i'm glad to hear you like canox, the last zing doesn't really fly because we like a lot of the same stuff iirc

guyyyyys

dammit nothing like finding out a major fight isn't gonna ensue after I already bought the nachos...

you're counted in that

whineys huggin it out is simply delaying the inevitable conflict

cold vein is brilliant, and fandam is top stuffz as well. everything vast has done since cold vein, save for his guest spot on the second quasimoto album, has really disappointed me.

I have a soft spot for his ridic cartoon swagger guest appearance on that horribly-named Fantastic Damage track but can understand people not 'feeling' it

also recommended for LJ, albeit in a very different [much 'warmer' lol] vein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P__LuA0vPLU

why does that cut out in mid-awesomeness?

very good though, great use of samples

actually I'm pretty sure that's where the song ends on the album; the youtube vid just has a couple minutes of silence tacked onto the end for some reason

The way they break down/build up the beat over that lovely bassline is U&K

I know many people didn't much care for them, but if you want some deep, off-kilter, soulful rap, I would definitely recommend the two solo albums by Cee-Lo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yDXm9cZ7aA&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNp15l_rcjE&feature=related

They're much better than the albums he did with Gnarls Barkley.

Seconded (xposts); Edan well worth checking out, LJ.

The first album (Cee-Lo Green and His Perfect Imperfections) especially sounds like few other rap albums I've heard (the only thing that comes close is Aquemini): Southern funk mixed with all sorts of eccentric but cool sonic tricks and some mind-blowing lyricism.

(x-post)

yeah I bet LJ would dig Edan's Beauty and the Beat

edan's beauty and the beat is great, esp 'science of the two'

"fuck 'em/fuck 'em/fuck 'em/fuck 'em/fuck 'em/fuck 'em/fuck 'em"

Albums that got me into hip-hop:

Paul's Boutique
Ghostface - Fishcale
Endtroducing (even though it bores me to tears now)

PB was one of these albums that genuinely blew my mind and opened up new musical possibilities. Jaw-droppingly creative sampling, sharp/cute lyrics. A whole different ball game from the Beastie's you might remember lumped in with 90s alternative rock.

I was into Madvillain and El-P for a bit but they had no staying power for me. Not a fan of 00s purist nerd-hop, as appealing as it seems in some ways.

Also if you like Dalek, Acoleuthic, check out their collaboration with Faust. You like Faust right?

Yes, I do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0MDxRqE-YA

Edan's doing amazing DJ sets at the moment featuring a lot of Finders Keeper style psych/funk.

Beats are cool but i don't like the rapping.

Also another vital vital hip-hop gateway I've forgotten: J Dilla - Donuts. It's phenomenal.

donuts is boring corny nerd shit imho. like chillwave for backpackers.

Disagree. One of the best (mostly) instrumental hip-hop albums money can buy (or that you can download for free).

fyi only a corny nerd would even use the phrase "like chillwave for backpackers"

so there

Dilla reminds me of chillwave in that it's always struck me as uncritical nostalgic recycling of "old shit that sounds cool". I like Madlib better for this kind of thing; he seems to have more of a sense of humor about his material (although it's quite possible that Dilla is funny in a way that I just don't get).

god does every thread about 'alt' hip-hop have to devolve into this sorta sniping

have also gotten mitts on 'madvillainy', let's drink that critical consensus down eh lads

xpost but I wouldn't recommend either of them to LJ, honestly, because I just don't think their aesthetics would jive with his

FJ reckons I'd dig Madlib

Talk about critical consensus all you want, but Madvillainy is utterly fantastic.

get quasimoto's 2 lps, louis...

^^^way ahead of you, they were in the first consignment. Bro knows what he's talking about. Also gave me loads of CunninLynguists and older-skool, more mainstream stuff.

god does every thread about 'alt' hip-hop have to devolve into this sorta sniping

inevitable result of nerds trying to distance themselves from other nerds

Any of the "older-skool, more mainstream stuff" grab you?

gimme a chance.... :D

Donuts is really just a dj mixtape, a medium that oftentimes doesn't try to be anything more than uncritical nostalgic recycling of "old shit that sounds cool".

hell, a large % of the basis of hiphop is uncritical nostalgic recycling of "old shit that sounds cool".

a medium that oftentimes doesn't try to be anything more than uncritical nostalgic recycling of "old shit that sounds cool".

It's all in the sequencing, the way the whole thing flows effortlessly like the greatest mixtape of "old shit that sounds cool" ever curated, packaged and sold to the unsuspecting nerd public.

having a hard time what a dilla album would sound like that was more critical in its recycling of old shit that sounds cool.

I guess I just want him to sound more like Madlib! for whatever reason, Donuts leaves me cold.

like, what I was trying to say earlier was as much about "nostalgic" as "uncritical" -- it feels, to me, like Dilla's aiming (at least part of the time) for pathos, as opposed to the goofy stoned fun of Madlib; however it is v. possible that circumstances surrounding Donuts are largely responsible for my reaction.

That's funny cause I've pretty much stopped paying attention to Madlib cause his high volume of output in the last 5 years or so seems to be little more than "ok here's 2 records I bought yesterday...and here's 2 more I bought the day before that...now here's 2 INDIAN records I bought just today..."

Have not been able to warm up to Madlib or MF Doom tbh, in collaboration or seperately.

I want to lol @ "dilla reminds me of chillwave" but I saw that deakin dude from animal collective play a few weeks ago and he was playing dilla before he got on stage

Jon have you heard KMD?

i think that madlib is basically a genius but do not feel at all compelled to listen to everything he puts out

No it's on eMusic (or was last time I checked) but I haven't got around to DLing it. I would probably get better mileage on that one as I generally seem to have my head stuck in the 90s wrt hip hop.

also dilla's massive influence is less about his sample sources and more about his approach to rhythm and sound (ie loose, unquantized, dirty in a way that takes real effort/intention to achieve)

I know Mr. Hood is on Emusic (cause I got it there), but is Black Bastards? (site is blocked here at my work) That's one of my fav 90s hip hop albums.

xpost: interesting; will have to re-listen at some point with this in mind

Black Bastards was there awhile ago, not sure at the moment. If they took it off then i guess I might have to tragically DL it off some blog.

The 12-credit album cap has been a good thing for hip hop on emusic. No more having to meticulously cherry pick only the non-skit tracks to save credits...

yeah, those skits add a lot of value and richness to the albums

bruce hornsby - chillwave for mulletheads

in a silent way - chillwave year zero

debussy - chillwave abraham

listened to this for the first time since year-of-release today! neither of them can really rap very well, can they

beauty and the beat was my favorite record ever for like a week and then i never listened to it again

you have heard paul's boutique, right louis?

listened to this for the first time since year-of-release today! neither of them can really rap very well, can they

I think Vast Aire has a very distinctive ultra-slow flow that sounds cool, and (I would assume) is not that easy to master. But it's true Vordul doesn't sound like a particularly good rapper technically: his flow is mostly just word after word after word, without much emphasis on rhythmic nuance or pauses.

love vast's flow. some of the most memorable lyrics i've ever heard, regardless. cold vein is still like a punch to the throat.

I saw Cannibal Ox at ATP about 8 years ago, El-P fell off the stage, then later in the bar he gave me a dirty look for wearing a Rawkus t-shirt :-(

he would rather be mouth-fucked by nazis, unconcious

you have heard paul's boutique, right louis?

um

let's just say that this is the start of a long and beautiful voyage

holy crap...

what amazing discoveries lay before you.

http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/references/YoLaTengoSugarcube.jpg
"I envy you... So much rocking left to do..."

loooool love that video

i have 'ill comm' and 'lic. to ill' on my itunes, but yr saying paul's boutique is the one?

Paul's Boutique is easily their best IMO- amazing, kaleidoscopic production and their best rapping too. Produced by the Dust Brothers at the height of their powers.

Paul's Boutique is just one of these albums that lives up to the hype. Get it get it get it, preferably in the remastered edition that came out this time last year.

Or acquire it as a rar, however you roll.

"I envy you... So much rocking head-nodding left to do..."

LJ I think you will probably fuck with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8byoPkPe0

Basically I just put on the new album by The Herbaliser whom I have never really been into, which remains the case EXCEPT it has three tracks w/ Jean Grae on, which get me recalling that Jean Grae is awes, which got me thinking about her bonkers guest spot on that Mr Len album that probably sold about 12 copies

There were about two tracks by the herbalizer with scratching on in the early 90s that were alright. Was one called The Blend? They were Ninja Tune's house band right?

this is a) fucking gripping, and b) approximately 37589x better than 'Frankie Teardrop'

"Taco Day" is like Jean Grae's least favorite song

I still fuck with the Very Mercenary album

xp while googling it just now cos I couldn't remember the title, I found some lyrics where she calls out Chris Lombardi from Matador, so idk if that has something to do with it? I mean it would be a shame if she just thought it sucked

Basically I just put on the new album by The Herbaliser whom I have never really been into, which remains the case EXCEPT it has three tracks w/ Jean Grae on

i think that new herb album is a career-spanning comp

Have been listening to TCV on repeat. Holy shit this is good. Best fucking gateway drug ever.

yea you said it sausage s4rgent

Forget Nas, forget Tupac, forget Public Enemy: rap does not get better than The Cold Vein.

oh dear.

Yes, it's a dude proclaiming a relatively obscure critic's fav record is better than records by a bunch of less obscure critic's fav acts. In the Guardian, no less.

article coulda been worse. I still like that record. 7/10

its a cool record with truly incredible beats but i could never 'feel' anything vast aire says.

which negates the rap part of the album for me

hence why i would rather listen to fantastic damage (or one of the rappers which cold vein is apparently better than)

not sure how you're using "feel" there; but I do understand complaints about the rapping failing to live up to the production

btw totally offtopic but have you listened to/do you like Food For Animals?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ9HUB6sC6I

^^^reminds me of some El-P shit

not heard that but will check it out. but yeah i meant i thought the rapping on cold vein was a bit weak compared to the album. i just hear it and think how amazing it might have been with say, wu-tang on it. do like vordul though - always felt he was slept on compared to vast aire.

*compared to the beats

its a cool record with truly incredible beats but i could never 'feel' anything vast aire says.

― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Monday, August 15, 2011 10:14 AM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark

i was basically ambivalent about the raps on this, but the yeah the beats were p amazing

i think the lyrics are pretty stunning. i dunno. if your whole beef with the feature is the guy has a different opinion to you then i don't know what to say. maybe other people like different stuff? LALL.

i dont have beef with the article. its a good piece. i just have beef with the ending. i know its about favourite albums and thats all subjective, but it just seems like a typical thing people who dont really like or listen to much hip hop say.

the last sentence of the article doesn't follow from all of the preceding sentences

When will massively underrated cult heroes Nas and Public Enemy receive their due from the critical establishment?

Cannibal Ox
The Cold Vein
Def Jux
2010

"When will massively underrated cult heroes Nas and Public Enemy receive their due from the critical establishment?"

lol fair point

PE almost exist in their own universe in these discussions but i wouldnt be surprised if more guardian/nme/wire/plan b/quietus/stool pigeon etc readers had heard cold vein then they had illmatic

i'm so bored shitless by this whole "if you love can ox then you can't have heard/loved much hip hop" bullshit, it is so tired. it's elitist, it's knee-jerk, and its beneath a dude who i know loves erykah badu and is therefore rad.

like, engage with the text, critique it. but while criticising them via their audience will doubtless win you kudos from the ilm peanut gallery, its pretty fucking lame.

that first el-p elpee is pretty glorious - 'toj' is as good as emo-hip-hop (ew) gets, 'stepfather family' is still heart-stopping. but 'cold vein' is still better to me: the extended pigeon metaphor, 'scream phoenix', etc (though i'm not sure if big juss's first LP, the one with gaffling whips and dedication to peo on it, isn't bettter still.)

i've probably mentioned this upthread, but i interviewed vast on the day the gulf war began (i think? maybe the first attacks on afghanistan?). he was staying in the columbia hotel in london, with his dj cip asleep in the bed next to him. the tv was running on the background throughout, and he sat there with three texts open before him: a copy of the bible, a copy of the Mirror, and a really graphic porno magazine. he was a really great interviewee (i wish i knew where that tape was now).

Anyway if this record has a flaw, it's not the rapping, but the fact that like seemingly every other late-90s/early-00s hip hop record it's a million hours long.

So stevie what youre saying is you havent heard illmatic. :-P I get what youre saying, maybe rap nerd hangups are hard to shake. Im going to do a fandam vs cold vein poll tho as fandam really
is the best rap album ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igS6u1bF9zw

weird that nothing ever came of this track, at least that I know of

So stevie what youre saying is you havent heard illmatic. :-P

ha! no, i have, and i think its sublime. but is there not the possibility that i love cold vein as much or more, that it touches different parts of me, and that that opinion is not invalid because i'm an 'NME reader' (which I haven't been for almost a decade now, though I wrote the NME's original album review of the Cold Vein ten years ago)? i know you're just yanking my chain here, but the "its rap for pitchfork readers" volley closes down the discourse in a way that's depressing.

am into this new album. vast i actually like more than i ever did before for whatever reason, vordul has lost a step or two, but there is some really good stuff on here. obv its not the cold vein, but theyve tried to keep with that sound, and maybe its better el-p isnt involved these days, im not sure he could go back to his older style, hes gotten more 'normal' with RTJ.

i listened to cold vein yesterday, it still sounds pretty good. some awkward turns of phrase but great sounds. they should reissue it again.

^^^ correct

some pretty great turns of phrase too

"fuck five mics, i want 108"

Album is great, I loved it then, I love it now