TS: Thriller vs. Purple Rain

Thriller vs. Purple Rain? Purple Rain wins.

"No, Prince, I fancy that sweet ass, ol' boy"
"Nuh uh, this fine ass is for funkin' til the dawn, Sargeant Pepper"
"oh, Roger, must we fight?"

Case made. Purple Rain it is.

Reasoning: As above, "The Girl is Mine" - blech (I'm sure I liked it in at the time, though). Plus "Darling Nicky" was one of the more memorable songs I remember from pre-junior high (at the time I'm sure I was thinking, "whaaaaa?").

"Bad", the song, was originally written by Quincy Jones intended to be a Michael Jackson/Prince duet. Sure, Prince may not have taken part of USA For Africa, but he and his band did contribute a song to the album, so he could be brought in to work with the King Of Pop, no prob! By the time Prince broke through, the next Michael Jackson album was going to feature Prince acc. to Jackson/Jones inc.!

So they thought.

Quincy got Prince and Michael together, and Prince quickly and politely bowed out and said "you guys don't need me for this song", so "Bad" ended up being Michael solo, and Quincy called Scorcese to do the video.

Welcome to the weird world of Michael Jackson's production team in a nutshell!

OMG. My heart just stopped.

PURPLE RAIN THRILLER

Purple Rain (no comparison)
Let's Go Crazy Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
When Doves Cry Billie Jean
Darling Nikki Beat It
I Would Die 4 U Thriller
Take Me With U P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)
The Beautiful Ones Human Nature
Computer Blue Baby Be Mine
Baby I'm A Star (no comparison)
(no comparison) The Lady In My Life
(no comparison) The Girl Is Mine

This gets kinda dodgy--honestly, "Billie Jean" isn't really the equivalent of "When Doves Cry," but then again, "Baby Be Mine" is considerably worse than "Computer Blue," which gets a bad rap anyway. So I'm actually less sure of my opinion than I was before, but nevertheless, Thriller has no song of epic perfection like "Purple Rain," they both have perfect, minimal pop nuggets, and Purple Rain, as stated above, does not have "The Girl is Mine."

Quite obviously there should be actual songs with these titles.

for unknown reasons, the song [Let's Go Crazy] was banned in South Korea. (from Wikipedia)

* 1. 1999
* 2. Little red corvette
* 3. Delirious
* 4. Let's pretend we're married
* 5. D.m.s.r.
* 6. Automatic
* 7. Something in the water (does not compute)
* 8. Free
* 9. Lady cab river
* 10. All the critics love U in New York
* 11. International lover

are you kidding? his shit just got even weirder afterwards!

I'm gonna need some backup on this one.

You simply must listen to 1997's ""Morphine." Holy fuck...

Tho I'll second the opinion that "Billie Jean" is the best thing on either. And I'll be petty and say that Thriller has the better drum sound; but I've almost NEVER liked Prince drums anyhow.

DEMEROL OHMIGOD SHE'S TAKING DEMEROL!

yeah, thank god Eddie Van Halen didn't guest on "Beat It" or anything

If by polite, you mean Prince apparently saying the song was "garbage" and Mike was "silly", then I guess he did bow out smoothly alright.

My fave story of that time was their two meetings - one in which they simply stared each other down and the other in which Prince apparently brought Michael a box of feathers and random jewelry or something. Naturally, what really was a loss was the video of 'Bad' not featuring an MJ/Prince dance-off.

Oh, and Thriller, barely - I made up for Purp's absence in my childhood big time recently.

I end up narrowly picking "Thriller", probably mainly because "Purple Rain" has a track or two that I am not too keen on while "Thriller" is great all the way. "Thriller" contains nothing as good as "Darling Nikki" though.

purp holds up better, i think.

Source for these quotes?

I'm not doubting you. I really really hope this is true, in fact.

Unsurprisingly, the "politely bowing out" comment came from Quincy Jones in the Bad CD reissue.

oh alright, Purple Rain. I wouldn't play Thriller at a dog.

Fuck Michael Jackson

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/Ramiella/Michael%20Joseph%20Jackson/drawing/dibujo_thriller-1p.jpg

The cartoons on the Thriller inner sleeve remind me of Rory Hayes.

omg i forgot about those..

The girl is mine pic is kinda gay

Purple Rain. I wouldn't play Thriller at a dog.

Fuck Michael Jackson

This.

Fuck people who don't like Michael Jackson's music. That basically how I break it down to an extent.

AiNYC used to talk more about disliking Michael Jackson than he talked about Killing Joke.

i dont think i've heard all of "thriller", which is embarassing. but i love purple rain, so i doubt the cuts i havent heard are gonna put it over the top

Fuck people who don't like Michael Jackson's music. That basically how I break it down to an extent.

cosign

Alex is a dude for whom I will rep any day all day & puts up with being given shit better than pretty much anybody I know, but we will never see eye to eye on the question of MJ. Prince is a genius but between the Jackson 5 & Off the Wall and Thriller & even a few of the later singles it's gotta be Michael Jackson for the permanent win. people should talk about him in the same way they talk about Stevie Wonder, because at his best that is the level of genius we are talking about.

Cover connection...

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/Ramiella/Michael%20Joseph%20Jackson/drawing/dibujo_thriller-1p.jpg http://eloco.comze.com/Sabbath%20bloody%20sabbath.jpg

Fuck people who don't like Michael Jackson's music. That basically how I break it down to an extent.

Here's how I break it down: STOP WOLFING DOWN THE SOMA AND THINK FOR YOURSELF! You just like MJ's music because popular consensus demands that he's a genius (though one could credibly argue that the genius in question, if there is one -- and I really think it's a deplorable misuse of the word "genius," and genuine geniuses like Einstein and Steven Hawking should fuckin' organize a beat-down -- is Quincy Jones, and not that over-celebrated, shrill, crotch-grabbing toddler-fondler). I'm not saying MJ's music (on Off The Wall , at least) is bad, it's just NOWHERE NEAR AS GOOD AS YOU ARE CONSTANTLY INFORMED THAT IT IS. It just isn't. Sorry. Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Oh yes, and fuck you too.

Also, for what it's worth, Purple Rain doesn't sound a fuckin' THIRD as dated as Thriller does (which is not to say, mind you, that the Rain doesn't sound dated).

I should shut up. My money's no good here, I know.

Dear Alex,

If everybody just likes Michael Jackson's music because the nasty evil herd mentality tells them to, how does the herd get started?

Love Noodle

omg lol

Satan

^^^ Diablocentrism imo

dude just had some killer tunes that got a lot of people feelin funky and good about themselves and life. live with it.

the thing is, those vocal performance that kid Michael did for the Jackson 5 - no herd mentality told anybody to love those. they're just possessed of an energy so pure & electric that they are irresistible. and this energy carries on all the way through much of Thriller, though that's the point at which that sound - the sound of pure engagement, total involvement with the song at every level (melodic, rhythmic, lyrical) - starts to fray, and things start to go to pieces.

when I saw the Billie Jean video in, what, '82, I had no idea he even still existed as an artist. I was only listening to Lou Reed and David Bowie. there was no herd to tell me "this is good." but me & my two friends with whom I talked about music could not stop discussing that video, airing not on MTV but on the meaningless zero-cultural-pull SoCal show MV3. the effect was natural, there was no hype for us. his power as a performer is and was legit. I don't side with pure popists who'll decry any claims of game-rigging as misinformed rockism (I think Britney's a real example of "we're going to make this one famous somehow, and people will learn to love it"), but in the case of Michael Jackson, any such claims are 100% bullshit that can't be backed up by anything other than "that's how it seems to me." his talent is truly incredible, and the tragedy of its total dissolution is terrible.

airing not on MTV

for some reason

well in my town it was because MTV came very late to southern California so nobody had MTV, I know there were other pernicious politics at work there but it didn't have anything to do w/our case - I was just pointing out that the growing influence of MTV's playlist wasn't a factor for me

Yeah I was just playing. I disagree about Britney tho, I know what you're driving at with the "we're going to make her famous" line but Max Martin for example was about the best that Tin Pan Fjord had at that time.

yeah I just think she's such a horrible singer & a dancer without character or style but I can get down with "Lucky" all the same so it's all good

I love a good blank canvas, me.

I think Britney's a real example of "we're going to make this one famous somehow, and people will learn to love it"

OTM. I'm more a rockist than a poptimist or pop-ist or whatever you call it, but I don't see how you can deny Michael Jackson's talent through Thriller, either as a performer or a songwriter.

I don't see how you can deny Michael Jackson's talent through Thriller, either as a performer or a songwriter.

It's not a matter of denying talent, it's a matter of putting that talent in perspective and not blowing it well out of fucking proportion.

Thriller. I cannot separate it from my childhood, it being my first exposure to popular music and, as such, pretty fucking monumental. Somewhere I still have a cassette that my one sisters made for me of singles recorded from the radio (I was not allowed to own the actual record for some reason) on which I recorded snippets of myself, at age 5, singing along to the choruses.

Let's Go Crazy Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
When Doves Cry Billie Jean
Darling Nikki Beat It
I Would Die 4 U Thriller
Take Me With U P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)
The Beautiful Ones Human Nature
Computer Blue Baby Be Mine

Quite obviously there should be actual songs with these titles.

^^^ tragically slept-on mashup concept.

Particularly good: "Take Me With U.P.Y.T."

also awesome: Darling Nikki Beat It and I Would Die 4 U Thriller

When Doves Cry "Billie Jean" - it's like The Wind Cries Mary.

the thing is, those vocal performance that kid Michael did for the Jackson 5 - no herd mentality told anybody to love those. they're just possessed of an energy so pure & electric that they are irresistible. and this energy carries on all the way through much of Thriller, though that's the point at which that sound - the sound of pure engagement, total involvement with the song at every level (melodic, rhythmic, lyrical) - starts to fray, and things start to go to pieces.

yeah and for the rest of his life he strove to vicariously recreate the magic he felt as an eleven year old, if u feel me

otm about "lucky" also

eleven year old, if u feel me

it had to come to that...

yeah so... i consider him my favorite vocalist ever because during the late 70's and early 80's he did guest singing and featured vocals on lots of songs that were crappy to begin with but suddenly got good when he sang on them (ie Torture, Somebody's Watching Me, that song from Captain EO), and in some cases ok songs that suddenly became kinda awesome (Say Say Say, State Of Shock) .. and similarly in the case of his own songs, a song like "Man In The Mirror" would probably be unlistenable if sung by anyone else..

I can't think of anyone else who did anything like that as many times as Michael, although this streak obviously didn't maintain itself forever since he was unable to save that terrible Eddie Murphy song from 1992 and most of the songs he sang on after 1987.

That was in reference to people blowing his talent out of proportion... had nothing to do with the question..

I think I actually like Purple Rain better than Thriller.. between the 2 I only dislike "The Girl Is Mine," and nothing on Thriller is as good as "Take Me With U" or "Purple Rain."

I don't think, though, I should say, that it's anything less than a fair and good point to say "yeah, but Prince wrote great song after great song, for a few years there he was a one-man guaranteed hit factory, many of them tracks on which he played most or all of the instruments." Prince's achievement, to me anyway, is considerably more impressive in that regard: its belongs to Prince. Michael Jackson's legacy belongs in part to Quincy Jones, and in part to Berry Gordy, and that's as true in miniature (on these two albums) as it is in the broader sense.

i'm definitely on the Purple Rain side of this argument but tonight i heard a DJ drop "P.Y.T." and damn if it didn't sound like the best shit ever in that moment

Thriller and especially Off the Wall are just so perfect-sounding it's almost unreal. Listening to Destiny by comparison was almost shocking: it's loose, kind of rangy, nowhere near as immaculately produced as MJ's solo stuff from that period, though Triumph is--of course, since it came after Off the Wall and the bar had been definitively raised.

What Prince did that MJ didn't was to seize on something resolutely imperfect and put it right in the spotlight: wiping the bass from "When Doves Cry," keeping the mistimed backing vocal of "Forever in My Life." When latter-day MJ is lousy (usually) it's because there's no air or life in the music anymore (not remotely true of Off the Wall or Thriller unless you're Alex in NYC); when late Prince sucks (hoo boy) it's because he (for the million-billionth time) needs a friggin' editor.

Okay look folks, not wanting to discount the MJ contributions, but Purple Rain shits all over him. Sorry.

And yes I did hear PYT at a club tonight, doesn't matter. Point still stands.

late Prince sucks (hoo boy) it's because he (for the million-billionth time) needs a friggin' editor.

Absolutely, but this isn't about that, is it.

Okay look folks, not wanting to discount the MJ contributions, but Purple Rain shits all over him. Sorry.

Absollutely.

"yeah, but Prince wrote great song after great song, for a few years there he was a one-man guaranteed hit factory, many of them tracks on which he played most or all of the instruments." Prince's achievement, to me anyway, is considerably more impressive in that regard: its belongs to Prince. Michael Jackson's legacy belongs in part to Quincy Jones, and in part to Berry Gordy, and that's as true in miniature (on these two albums) as it is in the broader sense.

textbook rockism (early 80s edition)

... yet still accurate.

reflexively dismissing an argument as rockism is every bit as much blinkered thought as people criticize "textbook rockism" for being

Amen

ouch, haven't been stung like this since sister m. aloysius rapped my knuckles w/a ruler in grade school

maybe rod tempterton should be credited w/michael jackson's legacy for his songwriting and arranging contributions?

god, I really need to get those Destiny and Triumph remasters.

textbook rockism (early 80s edition)

yeah it is! I'm not sure that that makes it asked-and-answered wrong, is the thing - I know for the last ten years or so, the trend has been reflexively (dare I say "knee-jerkingly") toward "if it smells of rockism, we know we don't want any" but I think we've kind of grown out of finding that an edgy postion, haven't we? at any rate, a non-/anti-rockist position on MJ would have to honestly say both "it doesn't matter that Michael Jackson's accomplishments seem tethered permanently to his surrounding supporting players" "he seems to have lost the ability to engage with them in a productive and meaningful way," which kind of speaks well of the auteur model - the likelihood of MJ ever getting his bearings seems slim indeed, but I don't think anybody really be all that surprised if the guy who wrote & produced Kiss managed to locate his genius again.

if MJ had done anything at all of value post-Man in the Mirror (corny song but production & performance-wise I'll rep for it), it's be one thing. but his late work fails by its own popism standards, and lacking any visible auteur chops on which to rely, the question of "which of them can write the better song?" seems a valid one - if you have a "that position was relegated forever to the dustbin of history" stance, then nothing anybody can say about it will sway you, but I think critically the pendulum has swung back a little toward credit-where-credit's-due for those who're capable of writing the material they sing, especially when - as in the case of MJ - their ear for what would work for them and/or challenge them to new heights seems to have gone completely deaf.

I say all this as a guy who (despite his day job) at one point considered himself the purist popist in theory and who routinely argues with his wife on the "no it doesn't" side of "does it matter whether an artist can write music"

(and m. coleman you're one of the smartest ppl on these boards as far as I know so if you wanted to really dive into a discussion which to me is an interesting one instead of reaching for one-liners in an ilx 3.0 style that'd be pretty awesome)

Why don't we just say, "Michael Jackson is a great artist, but Prince is greater." Rosanne Cash is a great artist, but Dolly Parton is greater. Let's not confuse taste with judgment.

Marlowe is a great artist, but Shakespeare is greater. Etc.

Why don't we just say, "Michael Jackson is a great artist, but Prince is greater."

Because that would end the discussion?

sorry for the snark. the feelings are mutual my friend. i pretty much agree w/yr post though I think prince has fallen off just as dramatically as michael music-wise in the last fifteen years. the bulk of prince's self-released music seems almost as vain and isolated as michael's.

I'll say that for the young the results of this TS are moot. If you're a club, watch the reactions when "Billie Jean" or "Let's Go Crazy" start to play -- the place goes apeshit. Speaking for myself, it's marvelous that these two guys were able to play out their psychosexual conflicts in front of a mass audience. It wasn't exhibitionisitic (yet), it was genuine drama, and it speaks to the strengths of MTV in its infancy.

Since we're talking side-taking post-drop-off: it would have been interesting to have seen both artists work in the context that a Ray Charles or Randy Newman, or even Dylan, was/has been able to work in, post-commercial-heyday. These latter artists were assured both of making of a living, and of not being part of the cutting-edge artistic conversation. So their art adopted to those circumstances: resolutely commercial artists in what amounts for them to be a post-commercial landscape. I don't get the impression that Prince or MJ has made those adaptations (though I think Prince has made these more than MJ). But I think it would have been interesting to see how their art turned out had they done so.

Okay, I'm playing the Purple Rain movie now and I need you to tell me what the hell MJ has ever done as good as that.

Beautiful Ones

Off the Wall

Purple Rain the movie is as batshit as "Captain EO" and "Moonwalk."

however, it has plenty of moments where you go "that guy is really cool," which one can't say about "Captain EO"

Thriller has four great songs on it: "P.Y.T.", which is as happy and fluffy as anything from Off the Wall; "Human Nature," which always makes me feel like having a cuddle; "Bille Jean," with that bass line and that truly chilling lyric -- fuck "Thriller," this is the record's scary track; and (drum roll) "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'," which is just mad, just incredibly fucking great, the paranoia ramped up to levels that would get most people committed to an institution, the beat sounding like an involuntary tic, the background singers shouting vaguely African nonsense... it's so intense. Just perfect.

But then there's the rest of the album. "Baby Be Mine" isn't bad, just very slight; "The Girl Is Mine" is painful; "Thriller" is nothing without the video; "Beat It" dates very badly, and the tough, rockin' Michael Jackson is always unconvincing; and "The Lady In My Life" is a lovely tune but an awfully schmaltzy lyric. "You're every woman in the world to me..." Who wrote this? Was he twelve?

Purple Rain is a much better album. Much.

Who wrote this?

a guy incapable of forming meaningful relationships with adults

Yeah, I guess in a way he WAS twelve.

Who wrote this? Was he twelve?

Mentally, Michael Jackson has never been older than 12. Sure, he has written some wonderful music, but so had Mozart at 12 too.

i choose nick cave

you and your goths

Hahahhah Oh man, Max. Come over here to my cave of Nick Caves man. It's alright. We'll prevail. We can get this shit straight. We can piss all over Modest Mouse. It'll be fun.

btw on that realness the only answer possible is michael jackson who i am more than willing to argue passionately is the most important artist of the 20th century on a geopolitical tip if nothing else

btw on that realness the only answer possible is michael jackson who i am more than willing to argue passionately is the most important artist of the 20th century on a geopolitical tip if nothing else

Someone go fetch a straight-jacket please.

sorry i meant second only to the killing jokes

for really realz though, when was the last time anyone actually listened to one of these albums? i haven't played either in years, but i know which one i would listen to first if i did. duh, prince. if i played mike it would be a choice track from off the wall.

i played For You a week or two ago for the first time in years and sheeeeesh did that ever sound friggin' great. just beautiful.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/364974038_b48f9abba9_b.jpg

as you can plainly see, michael DOES inspire me creatively...

cool painting

Not going to read this thread, and I like both albums a lot, but it's really hard for me to think of any level whatsover on which Purple Rain is the better record. (Off The Wall vs. Dirty Mind would be a much tougher choice for me. But I hear Purple Rain as detached and constricted in ways Thriller just plain isn't. And Prince got a lot colder later -- don't remotely agree that, of the two, he's the guy more likely to see his genius bubble back up, either. I'll take Michael's '90s over Prince's '90s. In the '00s, neither of them has meant anything to me.)

if MJ had done anything at all of value post-Man in the Mirror

"Give In To Me," "Who Is It," "Stranger In Moscow," "Little Susie," "Blood On The Dance Floor," "Superfly Sister," "Is It Scary," "2 Bad (Refugee Camp Mix)"

"Remember the Time", "In the Closet", "Scream"

But Matos, please. Surely you're in the Prince camp in this fight?

"Morphine" too, absolutely killer track that I only learned about b/c people on ILM repped for it

No, people. No, I have a real problem with this. I understand what Michael Jackson has done to the pop world. But I want you to tell me what in the living hell he ever did as good as the song "Purple Rain". Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.

Michael Jackson WISHES he were that good, okay? He WISHES.

Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.

Hahha look, I've put Off the Wall on my iPod now. I even woke up my friend in the living room to do it. Okay? I'm gonna put Thriller on here in a minute but still, still there is not a fucking way in hell that you are going to convince me that the best of MJ is as good as the best of Prince. No way.

I hear Purple Rain as detached and constricted

That is a surprising criticism. There's nothing detached about "When Doves Cry" -- I hear it as uncomfortably confessional and very needy. It's what it sounds like when Prince cries. It's anything but detached. And what could be constricted about "Baby I'm a Star"? The whole record is naked, sweaty, and loose.

Wait - this isn't a POLL???

I don't think ILM had polls yet when this thread started three years ago.

this whole revive is ilm three years ago

or six years ago tbh

haha I'm sticking to facts, not impressions, however correct

xpost Welcome back.

swear i'm not being contrary or joking but I prefer Thriller and always have (though I loved Purple Rain at the time). not sure I can justify.

haha there's really not a wrong answer here!

"ice cream cones vs. Popsicles"

The MJ/Prince debate should be settled by who looks better without a shirt.

The MJ/Prince debate should be settled by who looks better without a shirt.

Now or then?

Would it matter?

Haha. No idea!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/PegeenSwill/Crap/prince.gif

my friend Jenny: "I think that gif just got me pregnant."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/PegeenSwill/Crap/prince.gif

(oops)

lol

"Give In To Me," "Who Is It," "Stranger In Moscow," "Little Susie," "Blood On The Dance Floor," "Superfly Sister," "Is It Scary," "2 Bad (Refugee Camp Mix)"

one outta eight ain't bad in Vegas ('Blood on the Dance Floor') but the rest don't stack up for me

I'll stick up for "Give In to Me" and "Who Is It" -- Dangerous is a pretty excellent record, tbh.

yeah, Dangerous is fine. I gave up after HIStory, though.

Where would our culture be today if MJ had rocked buttless trousers on MTV instead of Prince?

Okay Kenan's gif thing rules here okay? Look I promise in the interest of science that I have added both Thriller & Off The Wall to my iPod now, and I will try, TRY too come to a different conclusion, just in the interests of being as objective as possible. But I'm not hopeful.

xpost: still in remission, I'd imagine

http://group.bmj.com/products/evidence-centre/shocked-orangutan.jpg/image

Also bonus points to anyone who skated in a dinky roller disco rink to "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" or "Rock With You". You folks are my bros.

Not excluding the ladies, either. Not at all.

I like a lot of nineties Prince -- Emancipation's in my car today -- but he hasn't written a song since 1997 I love as much as MJ's "Morphine" (ok, maybe "Cinnamon Girl" or "Chelsea Rodgers").

Anyone who remembers roller skates in connection with Michael Jackson can be my friend. I'm not choosy.

Oh dude, "Rock With You" was like, "Come on! You HAVE to skate to this one!"

did he cover Neil Young's Cinnamon Girl???

No.

an equally interesting TS, for people who aren't as interested in dull old "Prince is better/Michael Jackson is better" might be "Off the Wall vs. Purple Rain," though in my mind there'd be less contest there - the arrangements on Off the Wall are so in-the-pocket & the energy's so remarkable that even if "She's Out of My Life" creeps you out as bad as it does me, it doesn't end up dragging the album down the way that "Darling Nikki" does for me on Purple Rain

You know, I never really appreciated Rock With You in my life until I heard it randomly in a ramshackle porn store a few years ago and it just clicked.

I think "Darling Nikki" is funny!

Anyway it's a palette cleanser before the heaviosity of side 2.

Still not going to change my vote from Purple Rain, though. No freaking way. Sorry.

I think you've established that by repeating the point verbatim many times.

Oh I see! You wanna be a tough guy, eh? I was honestly trying to change my own mind and being objective about all this.

I think "Darling Nikki" is funny!

yeah it just never worked for me - I hear that its author is totally amused by it, but I kinda find that off-putting - "ooh, naughty me, I said 'masturbating'" - I like my Prince, to borrow somebody else's phrase from upthread, colder

Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.
Okay I need you to give me your best arguments because they are likely not going anywhere at all with me.

are we back in 1984 yet?

xpost to John D: See, I don't get that, "cold", "detached" -- when is Prince EVER that?

that's not what I mean by cold - I mean cold like Peter Tosh at his best, not detached but vicious

(Peter Tosh also a guy who when he's shooting for lols just doesn't work for me most of the time)

Ah so.

"Steppin' Razor"

xp

I'm grooving to "Get On The Floor" from Off The Wall right now, for what it's worth.

He'll never be as good as Janet, though.

Ok that's just ridiculous.

Not that I don't LOVE Janet. Rhythm Nation: so good.

now i wanna hear steppin' razor. i love that song. actually, now i wanna hear whale's cover of darling nikki. which i also love.

I love Stepping Razor but I think PT is going for "I will seriously cut you if you fuck with me" on that one

here is whale's nikki:

http://www.imeem.com/microskomp/music/AHu_uZJK/whale-darling-nikki/

xp "And laugh while I do it"

i prefer their version. i might actually prefer hobo humpin slobo babe to anything that prince or michael did in the 90's.

if MJ had done anything at all of value post-Man in the Mirror

If you can get past the pomposity of the lyrics, I seriously think this is one of MJ's best tunes ever. So minimal yet so forceful.

I hear that its author is totally amused by it, but I kinda find that off-putting - "ooh, naughty me, I said 'masturbating'"

I can't speak for Prince, but... I dunno. It's not funny in a pre-teen tittering kinda way, it's funny because it's a dirty joke.

"kick me, kike me"! i'd forgotten about that one!

There's also "Jew me, Sue me".

Classy choice there, Tuomas.

Well, like I said the lyrics are a bit rubbish, but I'm sure MJ meant the "kike" and "Jew" lines to be about victimization, not about antisemitism. It's just that he's not particularly good at writing socially conscious lyrics.

Oh, yes, I'm SURE. Stop this line of argument right the fuck now.

Eh, what? Do you really think the song comes off as antisemitist? I know "kick me, kike me" is not a good lyric, but to me it seems pretty obvious he means "you treat me like Jews have been treated by antisemites".

Shh. Relax. Let's all watch a cartoon.

'Darling Nikki' is a classic song bcz my friend Nikki, before she or I had ever heard it, picked up the album & announced to the whole store, "Look guys, they wrote a song about me!"

this thread just inspired me to buy Off the Wall. I still like Purple Rain better than Thriller, however.

Oh my gosh, Tuomas.

this thread just inspired me to buy Off the Wall

Any thread that does that to anyone is totally worthwhile. :)

The Stevie Wonder song on that is so fucking rad.

"I Can't Help It"

Eh, what? Do you really think the song comes off as antisemitist?

Yes.

Okay, but I guess you could also say John Lennon's "Woman is the Nigger of the World" is a racist song then, because it uses a racial slur in a similar way as "They Don't Care About Us", as a shorthand metaphor for discrimination. I know using racist words in this manner is a dodgy practice and MJ shouldn't really have done it, but that still doesn't mean the song has an antisemitist message. You can't just take those words out of context as a proof of MJ's supposed bigotry.

Of course I could be wrong about all this, but maybe you could elaborate your point of view beyond one word posts then?

Using ethnic slurs isn't necessary unless you're trying to get a rise out of people, and then it's just cheap. How's that?

This is the kind of thing that derails threads for months, obv, so I'm hesitant to play into it too much, but this:

to me it seems pretty obvious he means "you treat me like Jews have been treated by antisemites".

this is not obvious to me at all. And even it it was, who the fuck goes around saying things like that? It that a common rhetorical device where you come from?

I totally agree with that, I think it's a bad lyric and the same thing could've been said in a much more sensible way. But I still don't see the antisemitism there, unless you feel that using racial slurs is always racist regardless of the context. Which is a fair enough point, but I think sometimes a more nuanced analysis is more useful than a blanket judgement.

(x-post)

Using ethnic slurs isn't necessary unless you're trying to get a rise out of people, and then it's just cheap. How's that?

Extraordinarily polite.

And even it it was, who the fuck goes around saying things like that? It that a common rhetorical device where you come from?

No it isn't, like I've already said I think it's a bad rhetorical device and shouldn't have been used, but I think the message behind the lyric was supposed to be antisemitism. If you look at the whole lyric of "They Don't Care About Us", it's a song opposing discrimination and defining people through narrow, prejudiced categories. Having an antisemitist message in the middle of that would make absolutely no sense at all, and I don't think even MJ is that bad a lyricist.

"but I don't think the message behind the lyric was supposed to be antisemitism"

When the two choices of possible intent are "racisism" and "dumb as a tree stump," I tend to bet on "racism."

Anyway, sorry about derailing the thread, I don't really care strong enough about MJ or this song to go into some heated debate, so I'll stop now.

(x-post)

Fair enough, Kenan.

I will say though that I've always wondered if "don't you black or white me" was some kind of apology for the controversy over the video. Not likely, though.

I will say though that I've always wondered if "don't you black or white me" was some kind of apology for the controversy over the video.

I wasn't aware of controversy, but this made me lol:

To make the vandalism more palatable to viewers, racist graffiti was digitally added to the windows that Jackson smashes (reading "KKK Rules", "Nigger Go Home", "Hitler Lives" and "No More Wetbacks").

Ahhh. That feels so much better.

(Quote is from Wikipedia, btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_or_White)

michael was very publicly fighting w/his record company at the time of that "kike" lyric. we all know who runs the entertainment industry...

I have no recollection of such a fight, what was it about?

his career was on a major downslide at the time of hisTORY and he seemed totally oblivious. epic records reputedly spent $30 million on promotion for the album which was packaged w/his greatest hits as "bait" and when people didn't buy michael went ballistic on sony.

Isn't Sony a Japanese company? If he wanted to insult them in "They Don't Care About Us", wouldn't he have used some other racial slurs?

no wait...the 30 million and subsequent fight w/sony & tommy mottola was over Invincible. but history sparked a similiar controversy, i think the figure was 20 million at that time with the same disappointing result. I attended a record-company party where the new songs from history were debuted for journalists. the president of epic made a speech introducing the music and I've never seen anyone so uncomfortable.

tuomas: sony bought CBS records including the columbia & epic labels but americans still ran the company...into the ground.

I don't still understand the chronology of what you are suggesting... Even if Michael was angry with his record company because of the promotion/bad sales for HIStory, how could he have expressed that anger in a song which was on that same album, since the song must've been written months (if not years) before the album ever came out?

And his previous album was still a rather big success, wasn't it?

Oh, not that that matters. Didn't you hear? We're all out to get him for not reason at all.

I'm not anxious to pile-on or further derail the thread on this point. Nevertheless:

Pop superstar Michael Jackson must apologize for allegedly making a series of anti-Semitic comments on a voicemail message, the Us Anti-Defamation League (ADL) demanded on Wednesday.

On Tuesday, a tape purportedly featuring Jackson leaving a message for his former advisor Dieter Wiesner two years ago was aired on TV show Good Morning America. On it, the man - alleged to be Jackson - says, "They (Jews) suck. They're like leeches... I'm so tired of it... they start out the most popular person in the world, make a lot of money, big house, cars and everything. End up penniless. It is conspiracy. The Jews do it on purpose."

In response, ADL director Abraham H. Foxman said in a statement: "Michael Jackson has an anti-Semitic streak and hasn't learned from his past mistakes. It seems every time he has a problem in his life, he blames it on Jews." In his 1996 song "They Don't Care About Us," Jackson sang, "Jew me, sue me," and "kick me, kike me".

At the time, the singer apologized, explaining the lyrics had been intended as anti-racist. The controversial tape was released by Wiesner's lawyer Howard King. On Monday Wiesner filed a $64 million lawsuit against Jackson, claiming fraud and breach of contract. Jackson had no comment yesterday, according to his spokeswoman Raymone K. Bain, writes the New York Daily News.

Jackson's lawyer didn't deny the singer left the voicemail, but he insisted that Jackson isn't anti-Semitic based on the lawyer (who is Jewish) knowing Jackson for years.

FWIW, I am a fan of Michael Jackson's work up through Thriller. I am also Jewish.

Hasn't Jackson flirted with militant Islamism lately? In which case, antisemitism from his side would hardly be a surprise.

Not sure about the "militant" part, but it's been reported that Jackson has flirted with becoming a Muslim.

I don't get all this blah-blah-blah about the falloff of late/current MJ/Prince. Sure, it's diminished. But it's diminished from genius like Off The Wall or Thriller or Purple Rain or Sign O' The Times. To my ears, both have settled into good-not-great, formalist variations on their former selves. And there's even been some great along the way ("Morphine;" most of The Gold Experience). Are people really claiming this music is flat-out bad?

And will no one rep for Invincible? You want innovation? Well, for the first time ever, the ballads were the best things on the album. (!!!) If anything, there's a surfeit of air on "Butterflies." The entire production is high on oxygen. I have profound memories of hearing this song many times on a fantastic Sugar and Poison-esque AM radio station while crossing the lonely, snow-streaked Hoan Bridge late at night in Milwaukee.

As for the title TS, Purple Rain is much more consistent. But not even "When Doves Cry" can match the disco utopia of "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" or the freakish wonder of nature that is "Beat Me" (although it probably beats "Billie Jean"). So Thriller it is for me please.

hi dere new screen name

LOL. Hells yes! Spread the gospel!

lollll

I'd really rather not embed it in this thread but this is the only youtube result for Michael Jackson "Beat Me"

he really punched me haha

oh boy

Well, whaddayaknow? The Goo Goo Dolls have a song called "Beat Me." Huh.

Re Prince's coldness and detachment: I realize this will strike lots of people as crazy, and I'm willing to concede that maybe my ears are just screwed on wrong, but I've just never considered him all that soulful a singer -- well, maybe on first few albums he hints that he might be one, but beyond that, he's basically never made me care about his ballads. Feels like to me he puts an artsy kind of distance between himself and his material, but mainly he just doesn't have the voice for them -- certainly not like Michael does. I also wish "Baby I'm A Star" actually had the energy of the best Sylvester disco songs it hints at; as it is, it's always sounded held back, somehow. And though I like every track on Purple Rain, and have since I bought it the day it came out, I can't say I love any of them like I love at least half of Triller (or half of Prince, or pretty much all of Dirty Mind and lots of Controversy.) It's a consistent record, sure. Consistently... really good. Like say London Calling or something, which I also don't love any songs on. I even put Purple Rain in Stairway To Hell. But Michael does loud rock a lot better, too -- he rocks it harder, and he's more convincing, by which I means he pulls off its emotional diturbance better. (If you put "Beat It," "Dirty Diana," "Give In To Me," "Torture," on one album, I'd say that was a better rock/metal album than Purple Rain, too. Though I might take "Bambi" over any of them.)

("emotional disturbance", I mean.)

Prince definitely has more of a tendency to have an arch or artsy buffer that keeps him from being a traditionally sincere/soulful R&B vocalist, but he's still got a shit ton of beautiful emotional ballads where that doesn't matter at all.

But Michael does loud rock a lot better, too -- he rocks it harder, and he's more convincing, by which I means he pulls off its emotional diturbance better

I can't even process this - where does Michael "rock" better or evince "emotional disturbance" better than Prince's one-two punch of the Eddie Hazel homage + totally unhinged shrieking at the breakdown of "Let's Go Crazy"

Prince is (almost always) acting. Michael means it, man!

can't even process this - where does Michael "rock" better or evince "emotional disturbance" better than Prince's one-two punch of the Eddie Hazel homage + totally unhinged shrieking at the breakdown of "Let's Go Crazy"

Other than "Dirty Diana," all of Chuck's examples. I'd add "Morphine" and "Who Is It."

I think I can understand where Chuck is coming from (even though I don't agree) ... Michael exudes a purer form of rage because unlike Prince, he doesn't ever have to try to be sexy.

In other words, life imitates art and vice versa, film at 11 -- Michael is more convincing at "emotional disturbance" because he, uh, is more emotionally disturbed.

how "lolz rockist" is that - priveleging the perception of authenticity...

I'm pretty sure people are allowed to prefer music that they find more emotionally and viscerally persuasive. (If that's "rockist," so be it.) But I want to be clear that I'm talking about Michael's performance (what I hear), not his life.

"rockist" is a completely meaningless term at this point imo

I love Purple Rain but Thriller easily wins this for me. Yeah, 'The Girl Is Mine' is terrible but everything else on there is classic. I really think there's this joyful head-rush quality to Jackson's performance which makes the whole thing so compelling (although the material is obviously great too) - the sound of an artist at their absolute peak really getting carried away. I mean Prince does that too but Purple Rain feels more like a snapshot of someone still developing and working things out (which is still fascinating, and in a way this is sort of unfair to Prince; "Oh, just another great Prince record").

Also I don't know how much of it is down to the mastering on the CD version I've got (the 2001 remaster one, I'd only ever heard the songs on tape/the radio previously) but the production on Thriller really shines through, so many little details in the mix, it's almost like they're taking the piss with how good it all sounds.

my take on "they don't care about us" is that it's probably a garbled anti-racism message from a guy with limited real-world social experience (and thus inability to see that ironic use of "jew me" is as offensive as unironic use would be). on the other hand, if jackson actually is anti-semitic, then it's an anti-racism message garbled by actual racism. too bad, because it's got a pretty sharp tune.

last three posts otm

much as i love 'im, Prince is one cold, calculating mofo. i mean, for a guy that practically writes about nothing else (when he's good), sex almost seems like an abstraction with him; Professor Rogers Nelson's studies of homo pervertus in his (un)natural habitat: an post-ethical treatise. good or bad, Michael is always living (and dying, if you will) in the moment.