Who was THE r&b artist of the 90s?

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So the 70s clearly belonged to Stevie, the 80s were Prince's time, the 2000s are shaping up to be decade of Usher, but I can't really think of any single clear r&b singer/group who dominated the 90s either commerically or artisically. The best candidate I can think of is PM Dawn, who had a couple of hits and an excellent debut album, but I don't think many people even remember them anymore. Any other suggestions?

― graf cycliz (graf cycliz), Monday, 10 July 2006 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

BABYFACE

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

Toni Braxton

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 10 July 2006 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

I like PM Dawn more than most people, probably, but you're insane to suggest that they defined the 90s.

Commercially at least, it was probably Boyz II Men, Mariah Carey, and TLC.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 10 July 2006 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

(There is a common link between everyone mentioned so far; BABYFACE.)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

R. Kelly. AND he's the RnB artist of the 00's too.

― Ruairi Wirewool (Ruairi Wirewool), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think Usher has the 00s on lock yet.

Mary J Blige would be a good call for the 90s I think.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:07 (nineteen years ago)

Again, guess who's linked to R. Kelly and Mary J Blige during the 90s?

There really isn't any debate over this as far as I'm concerned; an absurd number of the R&B hits of the 90s can be traced directly back to Babyface as either a performer or a producer.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:08 (nineteen years ago)

props to Teddy Riley also tho

TLC sounds good to me.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:09 (nineteen years ago)

I think you could make a case for Teddy Riley. xp!

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

Bell Biv DeVoe!

― yer mam! (yer mam!), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

Dan is quite OTM. I'd also make a case for Mariah Carey, as her work with Narada Michael Walden, Puff, Jermaine Dupri, etc stands at the intersection between pop and R&B – it made them interchangeable, in fact.

(I love PM Dawn; I heard the 12" mix of "Set Adrift..." yesterday afternoon)

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

In the 2000s R Kelly is known more for his sex scandal and the weird, so-bad-it's-good "Trapped in the Closet," meanwhile Usher's pumped out a bunch of huge hits that are actually pretty good. I don't see any real contest for the r&b artist of the 2000s.

― graf cycliz (graf cycliz), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

babyface is right - who is THE r&b performer of the 90s now the crucial question!

en vogue.

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

I think when most people look back upon R&B in the '90s, they don't think of 'Face, nor certainly TLC (who are already fading from most fans' memories, I think - cf. the fact that they're almost never played on "jammin' old school" formats). Boyz II Men had the hits but no presence. R. Kelly? Yup. Mary J. Blige? Yup again. Call 'em King and Queen of the decade, whydontcha. Not just commercially, either: MJB's made some of the finest pure R&B of the past 20 years, and Mr. Kelly's influenced a generation like you wouldn't believe. 'Face is much more important as a producer/songwriter, a la Phil Spector and George Martin.

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:15 (nineteen years ago)

as an out front artist, I would say either Mary J. Blige or, yes, Whitney Houston -- say what you want about everyone's favorite cracktreess, but she had an amazing decade, what with the Bodyguard and Waiting to Exhale OSTs and even with her album late in the decade.

But as an overall figure in R&B, I'd say Babyface and Jermaine Dupri share equal billing there. Babyface for redefining the sound, Dupri for finding all kinds of pop crossover success (he's behind Kriss Kross, after all). As a third possibility, I'd offer Teddy Riley for blurring the lines between hip-hop and R&B most effectively. Then I'd put R. Kelly, though I'd say he's been much more influential this decade through his sheer audacity -- he's relly inspired a renewed cult of outrageousness.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:15 (nineteen years ago)

Jerkins is caught between 90s and 00s I suppose, but he'd the third great r&b producer behind Babyface and Riley perhaps?

but he did make Whitney cool (again) for a while, amongst other things.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:17 (nineteen years ago)

R's 'renewed cult of outrageousness' is unfair to his talent as a songwriter/producer/vocalist.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:17 (nineteen years ago)

nor certainly TLC (who are already fading from most fans' memories, I think - cf. the fact that they're almost never played on "jammin' old school" formats)

Bit unfair considering R Kelly and Mary J are still very active and the most talented member of TLC has passed away since. I know we're just talking 90s but people probably elevate Kelly and Blige simply because they're still forces now.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:19 (nineteen years ago)

I wouldn't say it's unfair deej ... what I mean is I think his infamy status really just gave him the courage to go for it ... and the results have been stunning. Just gives everyone a gold standard to shoot for in terms of inventiveness, craft and, yes, the reach of the subject matter. "Trapped in the Closet," to me is a challenge to all of R&B to step up to the plate.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:20 (nineteen years ago)

people probably elevate Kelly and Blige simply because they're still forces now.

No – they also scored the most hits in the '90s. Count'em.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

Teddy Riley's various incarnations had more hits in the '90s than Kelly, dude. So did Babyface as a solo artist. And Whitney also had numerous massive hits. Unless I be trippin' and you have the numbers to back that up.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:24 (nineteen years ago)

May be unfair, but it's what happens. (See also: En Vogue, substituting leaving for dying.)

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:25 (nineteen years ago)

I guess I'm confused by the original post, O'Connor. Are we talking about performers? producers? graf cycliz cited performers.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

No – they also scored the most hits in the '90s. Count'em.

TLC had a better quality ratio imo.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:30 (nineteen years ago)

We can count hits till the cows come home, but Guy isn't remembered by anyone but hardcore R&B obsessives (I count myself as a member of that club, btw), Wreckx-N-Effect had one hit, now basically considered a novelty, and when's the last time you heard a Blackstreet song not titled "No Diggity"? I'm not counting success as a producer because the question regarded who's the R&B artist of the '90s. (God this is so ILM!) Whereas R. spent the '90s becoming the King of R&B. Pretty sure 'Face didn't have more solo hits in the '90s than R., but I don't have my Whitburn book handy.

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

I'm still confused by the original question. In 1980 thte Vouice named Neil Young as the Artist of the Decade, when commercially Elton John and Paul McCartney/Wings were the two biggest.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

(excuse heinous typos)

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

'Face didn't have ANY solo hits in the UK incidentally.

I'm willing to accept R Kelly as winning performer, if only because Michael and Janet transcend the 'genre' so much more.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:36 (nineteen years ago)

actually i tell a lie re Babyface. he actually had three top 13 hits in 96/97. i'll be damned if i remember how any of them go tho.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

babyface's peak as a performer came during the 80s though as a producer he might have a slight edge in hits over kelly during the 90s. it's pretty slight though, mainly due to earlier start is my guess. as a 'performer' it very obv is either kelly or mary j though a case could be made for d'angelo maybe though it's a hard case. tlc obv have a case too. both had way way more hits as a performer than babyface that's for sure. considering how incredibly important and impacting l.a. reid's and babyface's move to atlanta was it definitely seems fair to annoint them for reasons that have little to do with anything they did directly. it sure as fuck isn't michael for the 90s (maybe in the uk though how the fuck that's relevant is beyond me), though janet's an interesting possibility esp if all those 90 hits from rhythm nation are factored in. she never really owned r&b radio though did she? the more i think about this the more it's obv it's kelly. interesting case for tony toni tone (similar but maybe stronger case as with d'angelo) could be made.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:56 (nineteen years ago)

R beats Teddy 16-15 if we're going by the number of top 20 R&B hits RELEASED by R. Kelly versus a combination of the same released by Guy, Wreckx-N-Effect and Blackstreet. (And it's not like Riley is THE face of all those groups' songs.) I am too lazy and on vacation to tally up Aaliyah and MJ and Sparkle and Puff Daddy and Changing Faces and Ron Isley and etc and weigh them against Hi-Five and the Winans and SWV and etc. If we're going by total records sold in the decade, I'd be extremely surprised if Riley came out ahead.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 15:59 (nineteen years ago)

i'm not into ANY of Kelly's 90s hits with the exception of 'Be Careful'.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:01 (nineteen years ago)

might be tricky to separate Puff Daddy R&B productions as opposed to moer straight up hip-hop ones, but how does he compare to other producers re total records sold in this vein? quite favourably i'm thinking.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:04 (nineteen years ago)

guy feels alot more 80s to me anyhow, the future was a victory lap.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

R. Kelly is a minstrel show for the modern man.

Also re: En Vogue, I think you really mean "kicked out" instead of "leaving", ha.

babyface's peak as a performer came during the 80s though as a producer he might have a slight edge in hits over kelly during the 90s.

As a solo artist, he had 1 hit during the 80s! (Granted that hit was "It's No Crime" so your point may still stand...)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

(FWIW: http://www.rockonthenet.com/artists-b/babyface_main.htm)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:07 (nineteen years ago)

I knew it was a matter of time before Andy stepped in.

(I'm listening to "Tender Lover" and "It's No Crime" for the first time in aeons).

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

Babyface on a strictly solo basis peaked '89/'90 ("Tender Lover," "My Kinda Girl," "Whip Appeal," "It's No Crime").

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:12 (nineteen years ago)

ha - i forgot "when can i see you"! i think my brain is permenantly wired to hear "nobody knows" in its stead now. i do like "it's no crime" and esp "whip appeal" (90s hit apparently! babyface back in the race!) more than any of his other hits (unless you count his backing vocals on the madonna hits being so upfront they count as his too). also surely babyface was more 90s minstrel show than kelly. i mean shit - which one worked with ron isley and which one worked with eric clapton?

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:12 (nineteen years ago)

Plus: Having a pretty good memory of what sold in the record stores I worked at during the '90s (urban and suburban), the obvious king and queen are Blige and Kelly -- no question, not even close. And Babyface roughly half the time was more AC than anything else.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

queen and king, obv

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

i'm trying to remember if whitney and bobby moved to atlanta cuz of l.a. reid and babyface or if la face moved to atlanta cuz of whitney and bobby.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

Blount, which one released "Bump N Grind", "Sex Me" and "You Remind Me Of My Jeep"?

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:18 (nineteen years ago)

And Blount, since Isley covered Seals & Crofts a couple decade prior I think yr Clapton-Babyface argument might be faulty.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:20 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, now that I really think about it, it is not at all.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:20 (nineteen years ago)

seals & croft were nazis????

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

What about Mariah Carey?

I'd rather it be R. and Mary J., but Mariah seems the elephant in the room.

― EZ Snappin (EZSnappin), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

Though JD makes a very valid point.

Mariah: I count 18 top 20 R&B singles with a two-year head start on Mary.

Mary: something like 12 or 13.

Hm.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

btw plz for someone to revive 70s isley tradition of transforming contemporary wimprock into great r&b (ie. maybe anthony hamilton can redeem oberst?)(babyface sorta did the bizarro version of this in a way didn't he?).

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

Teddy Riley had but a few hits, yes. But they were huge, enormous, mondo-fabulous hits, the kinds of songs that'll be on Remember the '90s comps for eons. New Jack Swing, the Wrecks-n-Effect tune, No Diggity plus a couple he produced/wrote for Michael Jackson.

I guess this question is a bit of a conundrum, as Alfred points out. Depends on what we're counting and how we're counting it. If you go by just the artist, then Whitney, Mary J. and R. Kelly cross the finish line first. If you add writing, producing and hell, even executive oversight, then that's where Puffy, Riley, Dupri, Babyface and even Dr. Dre enter the picture.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

^ clueless

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:49 (nineteen years ago)

I would list Mariah WAY before both R. Kelly and Mary J, FWIW. Whitney was successful in the 90s but I think is more identified with the 80s.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

For some reason I always forget Mariah, even when I'm posting in a thread where she is mentioned. Why this is, I do not know.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

mariah's case is alot stronger than whitney's though if it was whitney's move that got industry in atlanta than she's got a helluva case. mariah never quite owned r&b radio like mary j (and definitely not like kelly) really though right? 'vision of love' and 'fantasy' are the only ones that seemed unavoidable 'o shit this is my jam right here' (cf. for me 'written all over yr face' for the 90s) to me at least. some notice must be paid for putting out that song and kelly and mary put out that song's routinely. on that basis en vogue (who had 3 that song's - 'hold on', 'never gonna get it', and 'don't let go')(thinking of a 'peak value' argument here obv).

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

bah 'on that basis en vogue might have a stronger case than mariah'.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

Time forgot JODECI?

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

R&B's never forgotten Jodeci, RPW, but their tenure was all too brief: 3 albums, and they were gone. :(

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

...And the less said about their subsequent solo careers the better.

― EZ Snappin (EZSnappin), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

the black crowes

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

no wait lenny kravitz

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

white town

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

Jodeci definitely wins on widespread influence.

Jodeci and K-Ci & JoJo's numbers would be impressive combined.

K-Ci & JoJo would probably win if only proms, weddings, and courtship mixtapes counted.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

are r kelly and babyface really analogous to prince and stevie wonder???

i think r kelly might be closer to al green.

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:21 (nineteen years ago)

In those terms, Vahid, I might say R = (or at least approximates) Barry White.

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

did barry white flirt w/ religion?

my money is on r kelly becoming a televangelist by 2015

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

R. Kelly is more like Rick James (aesthetically if not quite commercially).

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

early kelly is total aaron hall but he became sam cooke somewhere around the middle of the decade.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

who was "THE r+b artist" and who was the stevie and who was the prince seem like three separate questions to me!!

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

in that prince wasn't a stevie and vice versa and neither was really an r&b artist

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

early kelly = orly kelly?

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

Alf OTM.

And Vahid, yeah, those are, kinda, though I see the orig. poster's point.

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

I'd say Babyface is a lite combo of Leon Ware and pre-'84 Narada Michael Walden.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

does everyone really agree with the stevie/prince assumption in the thread question? xpost - vahid sorta otm

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

And maybe there's some Gino Vannelli in there too.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

The '70s belonged to George Clinton, not Stevie, duh.

Babyface is hard to argue with, but personally/aesthetically I'd go with Tony Toni Tone (House of Music is one of my favorite albums ever and I like the two others from the decade as well) and Timbaland (who deserves love on this thread despite a relatively late start).

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

(those are personal choices, btw; it doesn't mean I think Babyface is wrong by any means.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:33 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, the late start hurts Timbo; I don't start hearing his influence until '98 or '99.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:33 (nineteen years ago)

AndyK totally OTM re: 'Face/Vanelli.

Actually I might argue MJ for the king of '80s R&B, as far as commercial success especially (that's pretty indisputable). But artistically, I mean, yeah, it's Prince.

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

yeah the thing i was thinking about with tony toni tone earlier is that they have a toe in new jack swing and seem to anticipate the new retro-soul. so you're talking kinship with riley and d'angelo plus you know babyface dreams of 'anniversary'. remarkable group.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:36 (nineteen years ago)

I'm pleased most of the Back & Forth contributors are here.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

you can pinpoint timba's entrance pretty easy, one in a million was like hiroshima or some shit. to take a kelly scrap and do better with it? helluva entrance, immediate impact.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:39 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, the late start hurts Timbo; I don't start hearing his influence until '98 or '99.

Alliyah and Ginuine's Timbo work were both 1996. Missy Elliot was 1997.

I see Tim more as the jumpoff point for the 00's Hip-Pop/R&Bling thing, paving the way for Neptunes et al.

Toni's House of Music was a fave of mine too, but I worked in a Black record store when it came out, played it all the time, and sold only about 3 copies that whole year.

Hitwise, Little Walter and Feel's Good were their heights, which were outshined by my contenders (Jodeci), no doubt.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:39 (nineteen years ago)

you're talking kinship with riley and d'angelo plus you know babyface dreams of 'anniversary'. remarkable group.

really really true. Saadiq is my favorite '00s-R&B secret hero as well.

I know Jodeci were more influential and popular, etc., that's fine. I wouldn't say Timbaland and TTT are obscure choices by any means, but in an aerial-view sense they're a bit more marginal. That's why I say they're personal/idiosyncratic.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:42 (nineteen years ago)

So Mariah doesn't merit widespread discussion/consideration? She absolutely dominated the nineties - both in pop and r&b - and seems to have a good amount of critical acclaim as well. Hell, she popularized the whole "rapper in an r&b remix" thing, and took the Whitney melisma-shtick to a whole other level.

I'd much rather it was Tony Toni Tone or even PM Dawn, but I just don't see it.

Clinton dominates the 70's only in retrospect - at the time Stevie was a diety.

And, as much as I prefer Prince, Thomas may be OTM with MJ.

― EZ Snappin (EZSnappin), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

I'm pleased most of the Back & Forth contributors are here.

So am I; I just wish for more posting over there, too.

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

Hell, she popularized the whole "rapper in an r&b remix"

Like inna 2nd time around stylee. That R&B/Rapper thing was a marketing brainchild of Puffy during his A&R years. This defines Uptown Records, no?

Nice to see PM Dawn's popularity come full circle this month.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:46 (nineteen years ago)

Mariah didn't have any critical acclaim during the '90s at all, though; that came later, with reevaluation and a generation of crits who grew up on her. The rapper/R&B remix thing is of course very crucial (and haha xpost), but I've only sporadically cottoned to her records and I don't seem alone in that, at least on this thread.

Stevie may have been a diety but Clinton by dint of his 80 gazillion projects was nobody's obscurity in the '70s either.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

i don't really remember any pm dawn on r&b radio besides 'i'd die without you' though to be fair i only like/can stand one other pm dawn song besides 'i'd die without you'. they seem to me more of a gnarls barkley thing where billboard's slotting them in r&b for some reason (well we know what reason) but i'll be damned if i've heard them on r&b radio.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not saying Clinton was obscure by any means. Just not quite as "godly" at the time. Big difference.

I totally forgot about the Uptown Years, as Heavy D still inspres nightmares. I saw him perform and was drenched by a spash of flop sweat when he took a fall. Brrrr. Nasty.

I don't cotton to Mariah, she just seems impossing on the landscape of 90s r&b.

― EZ Snappin (EZSnappin), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:58 (nineteen years ago)

Diety > Ratpure

There were roughly 20 Parliament and Funkadelic albums within the R&B top 20 during that decade.

they seem to me more of a gnarls barkley thing

Yes, and at least PM Dawn were funny.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Monday, 10 July 2006 17:59 (nineteen years ago)

PM Dawn>>>>>Gnarls Barkley

― EZ Snappin (EZSnappin), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

re: P-Funk

I think the liner notes to that Skanless/Rhino Electro comp series says it best. The writer thinks back to his mom's disdain for the "new" music happening between the late 70's and early 80's. She loated P-Funk, but the writer saw P-Funk as the beginnings of what would become Hip-Hop and Electro. This is how I felt about Timbaland. That which signaled the changing of the guard.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:01 (nineteen years ago)

Mariah, from what I remember, did OK with critics, Matos -- I mean, she wasn't roundly panned until the immediate pre-Glitter phase. Though yeah, Emancipation of Mimi elevated her to a new level of respect.

And yes, Mariah was nearly on a par with Whitney in the 90s in terms of chart success. I hope, btw, we don't offer any less respect to Whitney's achievements because of her personal deterioration. I sense a firm desire to cut her out of the discussion on this thread. But she does belong in the discussion, no matter our personal view of said crackness or even the quality of the music (which was really so-so following I'm Your Baby Tonight).

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:02 (nineteen years ago)

she wasn't roundly panned until the immediate pre-Glitter phase

I dunno; most of the stuff I remember reading about the debut was pretty damning.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:04 (nineteen years ago)

I totally forgot about the Uptown Years, as Heavy D still inspres nightmares

At least Heavy D had his Hurby Luv Bug years. It's that damned Father MC that I feared.

Whitney immediate makes me think "I Wanna Dance with Somebody" or "Children are the Future", which is 80's top 40 to me. Anything she did after the fact...

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

You know what will determine this? A quick glance at my Billboard end of the decade issue once I get home.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

In one sense, Alf, and only one, really.

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

I think to the contemporary R&B fans, Mary J is considered the elder states-woman queen now, amirite? Shouldn't that weigh?

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

You're right, Matos -- in looking it up, Mariah's never gotten more than three stars from RS and has barely gotten that high. She was never really disrespected as being less than a talented singer, the same way no one would say Christina Aguilera CAN'T sing (though I personally wish she'd cool it with some of the vocal gymnastics).

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:10 (nineteen years ago)

though I personally wish she'd cool it with some of the vocal gymnastics

doesn't this define 00's R&B en masse?

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:11 (nineteen years ago)

50's more than 00's

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:14 (nineteen years ago)

doesn't this define 00's R&B en masse?

dunno, seems the opposite is true -- lots of singles with a little tiny voice buried under a mountain of effects, as in Furtado's vocal treatment on "Promiscuous." That could anybody under there, right? Even Beyonce darts in and out of full boom.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:15 (nineteen years ago)

and great comment by James ... Aguilera does have a certain kinship with the powerful doo-wop singers of the '50s.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:16 (nineteen years ago)

50's more than 00's

Confusion over who their audience was (i.e. how much to tone down lewdness) defines 50's R&B thanks to Dewey Phillips/Alan Freed et al.

Furtado /= R&B

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:18 (nineteen years ago)

Well, Promiscuous definitely counts as an R&B song, even if Furtado is normally classified as a pop/world singer.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

dunno, seems the opposite is true -- lots of singles with a little tiny voice buried under a mountain of effects, as in Furtado's vocal treatment on "Promiscuous."

Rihanna to thread.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

how was the 80s princes decade? when it comes to R&B, the decade belonged to michael jackson, easily!

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

Calling MJ master of 80's R&B = calling Hammer king of Hip-Hop

For every black man wearing eyeliner in the 80's, we welcome Prince.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

Michael Jackson was everything in the '80s -- sun, moon, water, air. Seems limiting to contain him to R&B, doesn't it. Because his songs are among the best orthodox pop songs and best rock songs of the decade as well as R&B. How, really, to classify "Wanna Be Startin' Something?"

While we're at it, let's give a little love to Lionel Richie, too.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

Comparing Michael to Hammer, btw, is like comparing an elephant to an ameoba. Just insulting, bro ... :-)

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

Mary J Blige keeps coming up but I don't really see it. The only song I know by her off the top of my head is "Real Love" which is certainly one of the best R&B songs of the 90s, but one classic does not a decade-genre defining artist make.

Was R Kelly ever a respected singer critically? I remember hearing that "Trapped in the Closet" was his desperate shot at critical acclaim (worked like gangbusters) that he'd never had.

Do any of the frequently mentioned artists on this thread (Mariah, R Kelly, MJB, Babyface, etc) even have a non-greatest-hits classic album in their legacies, the way Stevie/Clinton/Prince/MJackson do?

― graf cycliz (graf cycliz), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:32 (nineteen years ago)

R. Kelly has Chocolate Factory. Mary J. Blige has What's the 411? which love it or hate has reached iconic status -- I was a senior in high school when that came out, and you just couldn;t avoid it for months. Really reshaped female black music tastes for kids that age.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:37 (nineteen years ago)

Hammer had one album that was underground Hip-Hop: Feel my Power. This was followed by one classic album: Let's get it Started. he followed with huge poppy albums that alientaed his old fans, gained more new fans than he could dream, then became a joke.

MJ's debut was 1978. His breathrough that made him everything was 1982. I was one of many who always thought Bad was just that...Bad.

In other words, he had one good album in the 80's to many people, and the only black dude copying his style was goddamned Alfonso Ribiero.

Prince paved the way for 80's druma machien driven R&B by empoying one of the first ever produced Linndrums. By the time 1999 came out, he was eclipsing Zapp. When Purple rain came out, he was the new King in the ghetto (see Dr. Dre pretending to be prince, or better yet, Charlie Murphy sketches). He was still cool as fuck when he and only he could get away with usiung that decade old linndrum on Kiss.

MJ is king of Pop.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:38 (nineteen years ago)

mary j - queen of the 90s, most influential female artist, by far. if you dont see that then perhaps you need to investigate more.

babyface might be the most influential male.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:40 (nineteen years ago)

Good inarguable points, Poppa. Clairfication appreciated. Also agreed that Let's get it Started is pretty good.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

Mary's definitely influential, but I think ever since the No More Drama comeback of this decade, people seem to forget that she released about a dozen completely boring and forgettable singles in the 90's and maybe a couple that were anywhere near as good as "Real Love." people respect the size of her back catalog but I sure as hell wouldn't want to listen to it all.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:44 (nineteen years ago)

Your knowledge =/ Mary's influence

seem to forget that she released about a dozen completely boring and forgettable singles in the 90's and maybe a couple that were anywhere near as good as "Real Love." people respect the size of her back catalog but I sure as hell wouldn't want to listen to it all.

My Life is like a near perfect album though.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

Good inarguable points, Poppa. Clairfication appreciated. Also agreed that Let's get it Started is pretty good

Thank you kind sir...of course, not saying there isn't plenty of MJ that I dislike. I just never got the reappraisal of Bad, and I haven't seen anything form him after that moved me either. But for that matter, much of Prince has been applauded needlessly too.

Hammer kicked ass for a couple years :-)

And for all my Mary J touting, I've never been a fan of hers. I was one of those ridiculous "keep it real" Hip-Hop purists who thought it was blasphemous to resample the Daddy O treatment of Impeach the President (Top Billin') beat. I've since gotten beyond that, but I've never been personally convinced with her gravily voice.

Still, soooo many R&B fans think she's the new Aretha or something, so I could see her being crowned on this thread.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

The fact that R. Kelly could even be considered the R&B artist of anything makes me physically ill.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

[i]Your knowledge =/ Mary's influence[/i]

By all means then, educate me. I'd like to see a real argument, with reference more to her own catalog than her influence on others, as to why Mary J Blige is THE R&B artist of the 90s. I admit I'm fairly ignorant of 90s R&B (the main reason I started this thread.)

So far the upshot of this seems to be that the 90s were not a good decade for R&B, as there don't seem to be any artists that can compare with the titans of the 70s and 80s. Or am I wrong?

― graf cycliz (graf cycliz), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:16 (nineteen years ago)

a.) I agree with you that the 90's R&B doesn't live up to the 70's

b.) ILX will begin a manhunt for both of us for suggesting that.

As far as the 80's goes, Keith Muthafuckin' Sweat. Otherwise, I loathe the 80's.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:21 (nineteen years ago)

(and by thew 80's, I'm being stupid and only thinking mid-to-late 80's)

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:22 (nineteen years ago)

gah so just how do you italicize on ILM?

― graf cycliz (graf cycliz), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

< i >

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:24 (nineteen years ago)

i forgot, like him or not, r kelly IS the king of R&B since 12 play

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:27 (nineteen years ago)

T/S Honey Love vs. Bump and Grind

When these came out, I confused htem all the time. Seems Honey Love has been forgotten now.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:31 (nineteen years ago)

Anyway if yr just looking for recommendations I think there are a bunch of threads in the ilm archives on 90s R&B (and there's tons of great 90s R&B out there, don't worry). I think yr not getting a good picture because everyone's gotten hung up on yr 'big central figure' question which is sort of inherently anti-depth, so you aren't getting a good picture of 90s R&B if you want the 'equivelent of stevie wonder or prince' (auteur-star?) where in the 90s it seems like many of the stars and auteurs had gone seperate ways? That Mary J's in a different tradition than stevie or prince (I don't even know that I consider Prince R&B as someone stated above.) I'd help you find some threads on 90s R&B but the search engine seems to be moving slowly.

As for Mary J, her first album is good, My Life is GREAT, and she's been pretty successful if inconsistent since (although Breakthrough is probably her best since My Life)

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:31 (nineteen years ago)

I wasn't just looking for recs, I've been enjoying this discussuion on the major players of the 90s and learning a lot from it, exactly as I wanted. What surprised me I suppose was the lack of a clear answer the way there were in the previous generations (or at least a few clear contenders to whom all others paled in comparison.)

― graf cycliz (graf cycliz), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

no offense graf but there sure as hell weren't clear answers for previous generations either.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 19:55 (nineteen years ago)

As far as the 80's goes, Keith Muthafuckin' Sweat. Otherwise, I loathe the 80's.

Keith Sweat had ONE album in the 80s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Sweat

Seriously guys, check your chronologies before advancing your arguments.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:01 (nineteen years ago)

so? - d'angelo had ONE album in the 90s

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

Two, actually: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27angelo

He's a bad example anyway because he's only had 3 albums total and, creepy naked video aside, I don't think anyone would dispute that people cared about him more in the 90s than they did in the 00s, whereas most of Keith Sweat's hits occurred in the mid 90s.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:09 (nineteen years ago)

(Seriously, I know that people like to be all "Wah wah, ILM discourse has gone downhill since (insert arbitrary year here)" but I'd like to think that basic factual accuracy would be something that people still think is worth preserving.)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:11 (nineteen years ago)

some random import-only live album doesn't really count, though.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

Because...?

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

(Not that it is even my central point, namely "D'Angelo's first album is remembered more than his second album so it makes more sense to talk about him as a 90s artist than a 00s artist at this point in time"; if there is actually an entire body of D'Angelo work that I've missed in the past 6 years since Voodoo, please point it out.)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:18 (nineteen years ago)

basic factual discourse would suggest keith sweat = 80s artist since his biggest hit was in the 80s and he's spent the rest of his career coasting on heat generated by the debut. shit al b. sure! might've charted more singles during the 90s but that sure as fuck doesn't mean he's not now forever always an 80s artist. "twisted" was the only 90s hit approaching "i want her". sweat's primary 90s contribution = moving to atlanta like everyone else, discovering silk. you might as well say tony bennett's a 90s artist.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:20 (nineteen years ago)

Is Brown Sugar more remembered than Voodoo?
Maybe I'm too young.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

Okay dan, I'll take the bait...

My point is, there was a period where Keith Sweat was considered the main shit in R&B. Yes, he straddled the 80's/90's boarder, which sort of disqualifies him from being the main man of either decade. But my point is, all the 80's R&B stuff after the so-called "boogie" thing died kinda was just okay to me...then Keith came along and heightened the excitement not only for me, but for most of my R&B loving friends.

But he doesn't represent the 90's for sure, despite when he charted.

He's srota on point with Public Enemy in this sense. Do PE represent the best rap group of the 80's or 90's? Neither, but easily one of the top 5 greatest Hip-Hop acts ever, and being they came at the tail end of the 80's, I'll call them the best of the 80's out of ease. that sorta discredits the earlier movements though, which isn't fair.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:23 (nineteen years ago)

D'Angelo's done about an album's worth of guest appearances and soundtrack one offs and two great live albums. But yeah, mostly he's just been a total fucking mess.

And for sheer exposure, notoriety, popularity, longevity, talent and sales; I think you have to go with R. Kelly on this one.

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:23 (nineteen years ago)

D'Angelo's done about an album's worth of guest appearances and soundtrack one offs and two great live albums in addition to his first two albums, I mean.

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:24 (nineteen years ago)

(I should mention that I rarely define decades of music by the 9/0...but rather, when a sweeping trend changes things. The 60's to me didn't begin until 1962/1963), making 1961 firmly in the 50's soundwise)

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:24 (nineteen years ago)

Is Brown Sugar more remembered than Voodoo?

deej and I often represent the generation gap on this board...

I remember brown Sugar and baduizm as the two albums that brought neo-soul to the mainstream. I only cheked voodoo with a lazy eye as by then I had wore out the neo-soul thing mostly.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:27 (nineteen years ago)

yeah it's weird cuz if you ask me 'is new jack swing 80s or 90s' i'll say 80s like that but when i do feel any 90s nostalgia it's always for summer 90, summer 91 music, which includes alot of new jack swing (and public enemy!).

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

On that score, Reverend, the 90s don't start until Metallica/Achtung Baby/Nevermind hit the store shelves ...

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

I think my point for Keith was really that he didn't represent the 80s, either; also the first song of his that came to mind was "Twisted", mostly because the environment I was in when that song came out made it inescapable.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:31 (nineteen years ago)

or for our thread's purposes, you can say that the whole New Jack movement kicks off the decade, as James has pointed out ...

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:31 (nineteen years ago)

o'connor it may blow yr mind but there were alot of people for whom metallica/achtung baby/nevermind didn't really matter.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

and new jack DOES NOT kick off the 90s as i pointed out. johnny kemp = 80s DECIDEDLY.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:34 (nineteen years ago)

Well, nevermind was absolutely inescapable for anyone with any media whatsoever...but yeah, still, it represents a time. The day Paula Abdul dropped off the charts, etc. Late 91 at earliest.

Keith Sweat's make it Last Forever was an anthem in my circle/school/city, and his 2nd album was highly anticipated. All that predates my awareness of Smells Like Teen Spirit and the subsequent changes.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:37 (nineteen years ago)

fine, feel free to kick off your 90s any way you want to ... remind me to give you a shout out when they start I Love Assholes ... I might be a charter member myself, mind you. :-)

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:37 (nineteen years ago)

O'Connor, I thought we were in aggreance? And ILX, as long as I've been on it, has always been IAAA (I am an asshole). We both teeter...

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:39 (nineteen years ago)

soirry, Rev., comment was intended for James, not you. But hey, it's all an all-inclusive club. Bring beer and dip, yo ...

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:40 (nineteen years ago)

anyway, let's get back to R&B ... fun music for people who need not take thselves too seriously. Yay!

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:41 (nineteen years ago)

(I think the "what songs/movement kicked off x decade" could be a great thread if it doesn't already exist discreetly in teh archives)

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:47 (nineteen years ago)

sorry if i don't think metallica are r&b!

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 20:57 (nineteen years ago)

metallica is race music

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:03 (nineteen years ago)

(and they had a "black album")

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:04 (nineteen years ago)

'hit the lights' = totally an r&b song title
'ride the lightning', 'metal up yr ass' = hello mr. kelly
'am i evil' = jill scott's attempt at 'tyrone'
'jump in the fire' = jill scott's ode to how good her man is at cunnilingus/tribute to pointer sisters
'enter sandman' = candyman obv
'the unforgiven' = mary j over the top dramatic slam at ex, built around 'days of our lives' sample

not going near 'blackened'

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:13 (nineteen years ago)

point very well taken ... in the pantheon of great R&B crooners, I think Green, Cooke and Hetfield ... doh! :-)

sometimes i gotta remind myself of what time zone I be in ...

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:16 (nineteen years ago)

'the shortest straw' = particularly vicious tlc track, what if timba produced gillette's 'short dick man'
'wherever i may roam' = too cute shanice/hi-five teamup
'sad but true' = the 'not gon' cry' of 'terry mcmillan's the interruption of everything ost'
'one' = mary j obv (pretty sure she'd cover the same segar too)

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:20 (nineteen years ago)

R&B always be talkin' bout rockin' and rollin'

Wild Bill Moore - We're Gonna Rock, We're Gonna Roll
Wynonie Harris - Good Rockin' Tonight
Jimmy Preston - Rock the Joint
Ivory Joe Hunter - Rockin' Chair Boogie
Big Joe Turner - Shake, Rattle, and Roll
The Treniers - Rock-A-Beatin' Boogie
Etta James - Roll With Me Henry
The Treniers - Good Rockin' Tonight

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

until schooly d said ENOUGH!

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

(we have destroyed a perfectly good thread)

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:31 (nineteen years ago)

NO MORE…ROCK AND ROLL!!!!

somebody go get Nelson George on this thread!

R Kelly, no question. went from a by-the-book new jack dude undistinguishable from Aaron ("I Miss Yoooouuu") Hall to the most influential artist in his genre.

anybody else love "She's Got that Vibe" with Public Announcement? "VIIIIIIIBE…VIIIIIIBE…she's got that VIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIBE!!!"

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

prince = the white beck of the 80s

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:44 (nineteen years ago)

oops, i mean the black beck

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

david byrne = the white fela kuti of the 70s

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

prince = the white beck of the 80s

that just reads hilariously ...

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

02/99:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/1101990208_400.jpg/250px-1101990208_400.jpg

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 10 July 2006 22:08 (nineteen years ago)

is that oprah?

― the fuckablity of late picasso (vahid), Monday, 10 July 2006 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, if oprah were 150 pounds lighter and had perfect BJ lips ...

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 22:36 (nineteen years ago)

anyone using the term 'the black Beck' in any way probably needs a slap around the face with a giant trout.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 10 July 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

somehow, those last two posts together...

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 10 July 2006 22:41 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, bad spot for a trout-slapping mention ...

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Monday, 10 July 2006 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.73.com/a/ha019.gif

― trees (treesessplode), Monday, 10 July 2006 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

You guys are horrible for starting this thread without me! Pricks.

― It's Rodney, chocolate-covered, freaky, and habit-forming! (R. J. Greene), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 00:27 (nineteen years ago)

How many people are in graf cycliz?

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 01:45 (nineteen years ago)

just one at the moment (and I hope to keep it that way)

― graf cycliz (graf cycliz), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 04:05 (nineteen years ago)

r&b must have been on its' last breath in the 90's. I guess that why the hip-hoppers muscled in. Or did hip-hop muscle r&b out? It's just sad we can't have mre than 5 or 6 credible candidates for a whole decade.

― nicky lo-fi (nicky lo-fi), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 06:15 (nineteen years ago)

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I think the confusion for people looking in from the outside is that they are looking for auteurs and 90s R&B is not auteur-driven in the slightest. It has much more in common, creative process-wise, with 60s Motown than with 70s Stevie or 80s Prince. People (generalizations ahoy) weren't trying to make giant artistic statements, they were trying to make great pop songs.

― It's Rodney, chocolate-covered, freaky, and habit-forming! (R. J. Greene), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 06:42 (nineteen years ago)

And R&B sold waaaaaaaaay more records in the 90s than hiphop did. If you were a big R&B singer in the 90s you did 5 mil, if not 8. In the 90s hiphop really didn't dominate the mainstream (or even black) culture the way it does now. The kids of the 90s (my generation) had parents who grew up before the hiphop revolution, whereas todays kids are growing up in rap-dominated households.

― It's Rodney, chocolate-covered, freaky, and habit-forming! (R. J. Greene), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 06:46 (nineteen years ago)

I actually can't believe that we're considering anyone besides Kels.

― max (maxreax), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 06:47 (nineteen years ago)

the question was "who dominated the 90s either commerically or artisically"

artisically, the 90's had way more top rated hip-hop albums than r&b albums. this is why we still only have 5 or 6 credible candidates for THE artist of the decade, unless people in-the-know start adding some more

― nicky lo-fi (nicky lo-fi), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 08:46 (nineteen years ago)

remind why albums are a criteria again?

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:50 (nineteen years ago)

In the 90's, rappers wanted that R&B money, so the core Hip-Hop community became divided. Some "sold out" to the R&B, and the rest cried "keep it real".

1996 was essentially the year that Puffy and Timbaland showed Hip-Hop what they were missing out on money-wise, and flashy, tuff talking solo acts overtook groups in a slow process.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 13:12 (nineteen years ago)

I'd say that was more Puffy than Timbaland, actually ... Tim's stuff was never quite as deliberately flossy, I don't think.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 13:23 (nineteen years ago)

remind why albums are a criteria again?

Arbitrary.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

I'd say that was more Puffy than Timbaland, actually ... Tim's stuff was never quite as deliberately flossy, I don't think

Sorry...my points were all jumbled. Timbo and Missy certainly blurred the line between Hip-Hop and R&B, sans all-out-glam...but you have to admit, even they were subject to the Hype Williams video treatment, unlike say, Mobb Deep.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 13:58 (nineteen years ago)

Tim's stuff was never quite as deliberately flossy, I don't think.

Are you kidding?

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, no offense, but Timbo produced for most huge mainstream rap artists during the height of flashy jewelry...even puffy's shiny suits don't match the opulence of Jigga and Dame on that cruise ship. I mean I guess you could say tim wasn't 'deliberately' flossy but his sound seems sort of 'one' with hip-hop's wealthy opulent peak, high-class bounce. Saying he wasn't deliberately flossy seems more like some sort of attempt to sanitize and make safe for fans of producer-auteurs. Cuz to me he and Mannie Fresh epitomize 'jiggy'

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

(i don't mean that as a negative thing)

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

does anyone think that Tim and Kelly could work together, or would their egos be too big for each other?

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

Is this where I bring up my obligatory Mannie Fresh started out as a raw Miami Bass producer in 1987 schtick?

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

To clarify, I just mean that Tim's music itself is subgenre-agnostic. If anything, his stuff is really just eccentric and flat-out weird (and the videos, fwiw, come as a natural outgrowth of that wackiness), and it must be the exoticism that attracted the guys like Jay-Z to commission his beats. Puffy's output, on the other hand, leans more heavily on the use of deliberate samples and in call-and-response chorus. It's much more orthodox, much more intended as thugged-out club music.

Think about it: Tim takes a lot of his artistic chances on outcastes like Missy, Bubba Sparxxx, Nelly Furtado and Petey Pablo. Puffy signed Biggie, the Lox and Black Rob, safer bets for street ears.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:21 (nineteen years ago)

Manny, btw, is the flossiest of the bunch ... that guy is great. Just a flat-out party producer.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:22 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah this rewriting of Timbo as just 'weird' is whats distasteful to me. He made pop songs and had a very unique style, but those artists you listed are hardly representative of his most well-known or accomplished work and Puffy's bad boy stuff wasnt any more 'flossy' to me; it was more disco, maybe.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

deej, be fair. something like Big Pimpin' is unusual to say the least, which can be interpreted as weird. It's 134 bpm, but sounds slow. The snares are no where near 2 and 4, etc.

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 15:13 (nineteen years ago)

Weird is actually meant to be a compliment, not a denigration ... Timbaland is one of those rare pop geniuses with the creative freedom to change up the formula. He exists in his own realm. He makes great and wholly unique, exotic pop music. Exotic is actually a better term than weird.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 15:24 (nineteen years ago)

Oh I'm well aware you mean it as a complement, I'm just saying that it distorts his actual contributions and minimizes the contributions of other producers in hip-hop when he's singled out all the time as 'rare pop genius' or whatever. I think Timbaland was(is?) great but you don't have to seperate him from certain artists and culture (of which he was very much a part) in order to recognize that.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

Or not so much 'singled out' but seperated and praised in opposition to 'generic radio pabalum' or whatever.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 15:45 (nineteen years ago)

90s R&B is not auteur-driven in the slightest.

sure it was. it was the producer-writers as auteurs, not that different from the '70s (hello Clinton/Gamble and Huff) or the '80s (Jam & Lewis), up to and including the fact that the most convincingly argued-for people mentioned on this thread (Babyface and R. Kelly) are both producer-writers and performers. (just as Prince and Stevie and, sure, Clinton were also performers.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

not trying to do that, actually. the analysis was framed in terms of flossiness and vs. Puffy, who I also happen to admire a lot more than some others. His influence on hip-hop and R&B culture is enormous ... you're right, Timbaland belongs to hip-hop culture as much as anyone. he's just more of a gifted musical mind than a lot of folks, I feel.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

I knew I was going to get called out on that. What I really meant was auteur/artists. Babyface and R. Kelly both apply, but weren't really the types of folks I was trying to get at, people who really view themselves as "artistes" (although Kells, perhaps, has morphed into that.)

It was a badly presented (still not presented quite as well as I want) argument.

― It's Rodney, chocolate-covered, freaky, and habit-forming! (R. J. Greene), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

I would be surprised if Babyface didn't view himself as an "artiste" as well as a businessman.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 10:25 (nineteen years ago)

But does he still consider himself really 'babyfaced' after all these years?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 10:31 (nineteen years ago)

HE IS TEH TRIFECTA

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 10:36 (nineteen years ago)

"outcastes like Missy, Bubba Sparxxx, Nelly Furtado and Petey Pablo"

nelly excepted, cos shes not a rapper, but you say outcastes, i say hit and miss, somewhat peculiar and distinctive but not really all that amazing rappers. the artists timbaland picks to work with or sign to his label or take under his wing are those that dont take too much attention from his production (mainly cos theyre just not that great as rappers).

its funny that timbaland is thought of as being opposite to 'generic radio shit' as well, cos hes seen as being just that by a lot of hip hop fans, despite his brilliance. he ushered in the jiggy/hiphop-R&B era with missy, just as much as puffy and jay-z did.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 11:14 (nineteen years ago)

Which is the point I made when introducing him to this arguement

― Rev. PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie 2), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 12:28 (nineteen years ago)

I disagree with the notion that Timbaland's collaborators and proteges are second rate. Petey and Bubba are both fabulous ... unorthodox personas but highly skilled rappers. Missy just has an old-school creative freedom to her and can definitely write songs. Nelly also is a talented songwriter and quirky speaksinger. So all of these people *share* in the musical product.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 13:05 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.usaweekend.com/06_issues/060709/060709poll.html

"Carey knows how to create lyrical magic by writing incredible songs that really speak to the masses."

Guess that's that, then.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

and Coolio at #7 ... wow.

― O'Connor (OConnorScribe), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 14:24 (nineteen years ago)

seven months pass...

8. "Missing," Everything but the Girl (1994)

wtf is that

― deej, Thursday, 1 March 2007 23:55 (nineteen years ago)

Hahaha what an odd list.

― The Brainwasher, Thursday, 1 March 2007 23:57 (nineteen years ago)

"We don't need no hateration, holleration" isn't exactly the essential MJB lyric.

― The Brainwasher, Friday, 2 March 2007 00:00 (nineteen years ago)

how the fuck did this turn into another timbaland debate...jesus people shut up about timbaland.

― artdamages, Friday, 2 March 2007 00:36 (nineteen years ago)

yeah you fucks, go back in time and clean up your act!

― PappaWheelie V, Friday, 2 March 2007 00:37 (nineteen years ago)

i dont know what that means, but I'm so sick of every discussion of r and b or hip hop turning into a timbaland circle jerk

― artdamages, Friday, 2 March 2007 00:42 (nineteen years ago)

i think we can eliminate Timbaland from the running for best R&B artist of the 90s.

― artdamages, Friday, 2 March 2007 00:43 (nineteen years ago)

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