terror twilight

yeah, my least fave of the pavement catalog. easily.

xpost

it rocks!

Like Scott, I was really excited about the album, bought the "Major Leagues" single for the Echo cover, loved both. Not sure about the Echo cover now.

-- scott seward (skotro...), September 12th, 2006.

It does not. Now try harder

"major leagues" though, yeah, that one is also excellent - I wonder if a whole album of Wistful Steve would work

BTC is still my favourite one, but the fact that TT wasn't as overly clever kinda made it refreshing and a perfect 1-2 goodbye punch.

Pig Lib is awesome too.

WHATEVS, HATER

-- wogan lenin (doglati...), September 12th, 2006.

People don't like it because (I'm guessing the conventional wisdom here or speaking for myself) the tempos are dull and plodding the drumming is awful and it just sounds flat and devoid of any kind of energy or enthusiasm that the first three records had. Pavement were good at being a fake punk band (Serpentine Pad) country band (Range Life) and noise band (Fork Lift, Chelsey's Little Wrists) but they sound better when their prog is more Fillmore Jive than TT. They also sound better when it sounds like they are having fun, and this album--great lyrics aside--does not sound like they are having fun. It sounds like work.

funny stuff, keep it up ilm!

You have weird ears!

i can't believe i'm defending pavement on ilm, the home of pavementlove, but, really, ALL their albums are pretty good! i mean, if you like them, i can't imagine NOT listening to one or another. they are all very pavement-y and they all have their moments. terror twilight is hardly some aberration in their catalog. it sounds exactly like a pavement album!

You have weird ears!"

nah, that's pretty right on. i recall being excited, then hearing it, then loving it, then putting some between it. coming back to it a year later, it already sounded dull. there ARE some songs here and there, but they really didn't translate onto the album all that well. stand out would be Speak, See, Remeber/ the Hexx.
and a few b-sides, but, overall it's just pretty meh, and as was said 'out with a whimper'. it's just background.

"Watch out for the gypsy children in electric dresses, they're insane/I hear they live in crematoriums and smoke your remains"

???

-- Matthew Perpetua! (matthewfluxblo...), September 12th, 2006 7:46 PM. (Matthew Perpetua!) (later)

still selling those on ebay, matthew?

Scott OTM upthread. I never understood the massive contrasts in opinions about Pavement albums - they're all good and they're all Pavement-y. But maybe fans who came to them via their early stuff are looking for something else that they decided to shed after CRCR (or even Slanted). I'm not such a big fan of Slanted and Westing, but if you take each album on its own merit rather than comparing it to other works, you'll see they're all pretty good.

I know I'm pretty much alone with my opinion. But for some reason, Pavement never GRABBED me after CRCR. I can't put my finger on it. But at the time, I remember thinking they had turned into an REM - just releasing variation after variation of their theme. I guess I liked em better scrappy, when the post punk influences were stronger than the jangle.

as far as checking out other albums, i've never read anyone saying, "oh, this one is really something!" instead, it's "they're all pretty good."

Lip balm on watery clay
Relationships hey hey hey...

^^^best song on the album

platform blues

"Major Leagues" = my life after thirty.

people who don't like this album just because it doesn't sound like slanted and enchanted should listen again.

It's not one of their very best because it sounds cobbled together instad of conceived, hasty instead of thought-through, but I still love.

xp
Their worst. Some of the songs are among their best but as an album it sure sounds like they were having a miserable time.

awesome album!

that was me. though i think maria likes pavement fine.

haha, i love this album. might not be the pavement album i reach for all the most, but i like it whenever i do reach for it. looking at the tracklisting now, i don't think there's a single song I don't like on it ... which i can't say about BTC these days. though the live versions of some of this stuff might be better, esp. "folk jam."

pavement threads on ILM are always funny. WHAT IS THE BEST ALBUM!?

I feel I need to listen to this now. Oddly enough I watched Slow Century last night

I pretty much hate the Nigel Godrich production (I usually do!) and at least half the songs are either cringeworthy or aimless but "Spit on a Stranger", "Major Leagues", and "Carrot Rope" are all aces

yesss carrot rope

The Hexx is the jam too

I like Cream Of Gold. It is my least favourite Pavement album though. And not because it doesn't sound like S&E, I like Brighten The Corners just fine.

the problem with it is its the beginning of SM's guitar noodling-focused solo career and it sounds like it

Yeah -- BTE is my favorite Pavement.

(xpost)

Shakey, there's hardly any noodling on the first and third solo albums.

I think I like the first Malkmus solo better than TT. He saved all the good songs for that one I reckon

ugh I got rid of that first solo album almost immediately - altho I think it was the horrible lyrics more than the tuneless guitar playing that turned me off it.

Church on White was nice.

off came those awful toe rings = off came that awful record more like

I am a non-lover of Pavement (a liker, though) and I think it's great. I bought it because I loved "Spit on a Stranger" and wanted to put it on mixtapes (I was 14!! and had only heard Slanted). "Folk Jam" what is wrong with that? It's funny! I love the song "Billie," am i the only one? Once me and a buddy were smoking bowls and looking through old CDs and I pulled it and skimmed it looking for "Billie" and he says to me "This is easily the most boring thing that you listen to" and he may have been right. When the chorus came on he was nodding his head, though, cause man that chorus rocks!

"Billie" did the slow fadeout better than Radiohead at the time -- and it's funnier.

I forgot the line about architecture students! "Never build a building 'til you're 50, what kind of life is that?" This is so good.

My boyfriend & I in high school got in a tiff about whether "carrot rope" was about a wang. He'd asked me once if I thought it was about a wang and I had apparently said no in a manner that suggested he was screwy for even asking the question. But we were listening to it one day and when I said it was "an awesome song about a wang" he got mad and said I was always trying to make him feel like a pervert.

I pretty much hate the Nigel Godrich production (I usually do!) and at least half the songs are either cringeworthy or aimless but "Spit on a Stranger", "Major Leagues", and "Carrot Rope" are all aces

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 3:44 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

^^^this. the drumming didn't help either

This album is the pits. Listened to it on a road trip recently for the first time since it came out, and somehow liked it even less this time. What a mess.

love this album.

"the Hexx" also belongs in Shakey's good song pile.

Yeah, I gave this album yet another chance recently (don't hate it but also don't plan on playing it much) and The Hexx actually did stick out as good. Still like the Fall cover best of everything related to TT.

I always liked Ann Don't Cry. The melody gets me.

If it wasn't a Pavement album would more people not hate it so much? Assuming nobody would have an issue with how derivative it would be of Pavement if it were in fact somebody else's.

I like Terror Twilight great! I like it + S&E and the rest I never much tried to get into.

I really hope they end up giving this record the reissue treatment next year. Since the band is reforming, I'm guessing this will be a go. So excited!

"I like Terror Twilight great! I like it + S&E and the rest I never much tried to get into."

Either end and nothing in-between? Thats a strange one.

i think pavement should only play songs from this on their comeback tour

also: 'date w/ikea', 'hit the plane down', etc.

jesus, atp is starting to sell out already and they have announced no other acts

listening

such a great record

interesting full-circle level to it: godrich's production is basically adding a level of highbrow worked-over grot insted of the actual accidental grot of the early stuff

rocks in the old man sense of 'rocks': is propulsive and rhythmic, good chemistry; not rocks in the sense of 'it is loud and fast'. i mean it rocks like jefferson airplane or whatever

"your kiss like a rock but you know i need it anyway" etc etc i could quote a lot of malkmus but you all know how it works. anyway is the focus on this sort of thing* why ppl think it sounds like a first malkmus solo album?

*by which i mean 'admitted emotional referents'

nb. malkmus hasn't actually released any solo albums, so i'm kind of confused whenever people try that one

"Carrot Rope"'s arrangement was beyond Malk until 2003, so the argument that TT is an unofficial solo album mystifies me.

I'm hearing this as a really nice Abbey Road kinda sendoff.. lots of good stuff on here.

So I read that Perfect Sound Forever book over the weekend, and they had Noel Goodrich's song sequence. Apparently, he was surprised that the album producer didn't get to pick the track order.

1.) Ground Beef/Platform Blues
2.) The Hex
3.) You Are the Light
4.) Jesus in Harlem/Cream of Gold
5.) Ann
6.) Folk Jam
7.) Major Leagues
8.) Terror Twilight/Speak, See, Remember
9.) Carrot Rope
10.) Shaghag (dropped noise thing)
11.) Billie
12.) Spit on a Stranger

I'm kinda down with it starting out with Platform Blues, but I think in the end, Spiral knew what he was doing.

Might have been a more interesting-sounding record. Think that sequencing might actually work.

Still wanna know what SS's sequence was for a 12-track Wowee Zowee.

isn't that in that book too? or am i imagining it.

It mentioned it, but didn't list it.

still no word on what's going to be on the terror twilight reissue? would be cool if there were godrich-free early versions of these songs.

Godrich ruined this record

i don't mind godrich too much, but he seems wholly unnecessary here.

if there were a poll of producer/performer mismatches I would put this somewhere near the top

speaking of that perfect sound forever book, there's a funny bit about the TT sessions where it says that Godrich never learned Bob Nastanovich's name...

wonder if there would've been a good producer fit for pavement? Obv they got Mitch Easter, but he didn't really do all that much to the sound, I don't think.

David Briggs

i think david briggs would've scared pavement.

you say that like it's a bad thing

yeah maybe not they probably were not scared by nigel godrich. i guess briggs did that royal trux record, so it could have happened had briggs live long enough!

this is a band whose virtues were fuzzy edges and elliptical gestures, hiring a cold-blooded British robot that likes things sleek and shiny was a total head-slapping moment. Godrich's favorite record production job is Hunky Dory for chrissakes

Man, the live versions, and even the 7" version of The Hexx sound so much heavier than the album version.

godrich's second best production work imo

(#1 is the silver sun debut)

Cream Of Gold is underrated I reckon

whn's the redux out?

did the band know they were about to break up when they made this record? i remember every review of it at the time mentioned malkmus going solo. whatebs i still enjoy it quite a bit. "folk jam" "spit on a stranger" "major leagues" and "my dreams are beige" are all great.

"spit on a stranger" from the original tracklisting woulda been a great swansong. shame they had to change it.

What's My Dreams Are Beige?

Cream of Gold, I suppose.

Finding myself enjoying this record more than I did initially. Ann Don't Cry/Billie/Speak, See, Remember are closer to b-sides than anything, and no great producer could have saved that uninspired sequence, in my opinion. The rest is pretty good/excellent.

no great producer could have saved that uninspired sequence

agree w this. some terrible lyrics in these too

brighten the corners completely opened up to me after 7 listens or so.. this one not so much. second side is not good. "cream of gold" has a good riff. if i had to pick one, it'd be "you are a light".

"ann don't cry" was really really good when i saw them live on the TT tour, though, really pastoral kind of grateful dead vibe.

"Folk jam" all the way for me. I enjoy the buildups, jamming, and singing.

A personal go to.

"You are a light" for my least favorite song. All around good album imo, not sure why ppl hate on it so much.

because Nigel Godrich is horrible and half the songs suck

fuck it, I'm not going to defend this album. I'm not head over heels for it but I have enjoyed it from time to time over the years.

yes but do you believe in leprechauns

i remember being overly bummed out at the digital delay/pitch shifting on "the hexx", like 'ick gross, stick with the tube amps and such'

haha is the first verse of Billie a dig at Jeff Mangum or is that overreaching

I don't know whether I've listened to this since I did upthread but I am listening now and it is still effectively poignant and shit

musically the godrich noises at the end of the hexx do nothing for me but they work ~~conceptually~~ so

people overhate on this record, it's fine if uninspired

it feels like such an odd mismatch of band/producer i just wonder if it would've worked any better with a different producer

"Billie" is fine, knaves.

love the lyric 'sue the fortune-teller, rue the rising tide'

it's fine if uninspired

with friends like these

it feels like such an odd mismatch of band/producer i just wonder if it would've worked any better with a different producer

― some dude, Monday, July 7, 2014 4:46 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

or NO producer, as they had on every previous album

i remember being overly bummed out at the digital delay/pitch shifting on "the hexx", like 'ick gross, stick with the tube amps and such'

― brimstead, Monday, July 7, 2014 3:58 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes! the version on the carrot rope 7" is so dope

i was trading tapes of Pavement shows back then and The Hexx seemed to be an absolute beast when they were playing it live ahead of the release of TT. it got neutered in the studio, tho.

just listened to this album for the first time in, i don't know, a dozen years? it might actually be worse than i remember. little bits of good here and there, but mostly pretty forgettable.

I was disappointed by TT when it came out but I really like it now. "brighten the corners" otoh hasn't aged well. I loved it when it came out but it sounds so sluggish now.

I really like the Hexx. I really like this album.

The only reason I was disappointed by TT when it came out was because I'd already heard a lot of the songs.

oddly finding this album more enjoyable with the track order in reverse

Starlings of the Slipstream is the best track on BTC imo

it's weird how from Wowee Zowee on Malkie wrote so many ballads in the same plodding time signature/rhythm - I like a lot of them but really they all sound like variations on the same song

i like speak see remember. some fun lyrics on it

After slowly (!) making my way through many of Malkmus' solo albums, I'm amazed how much he improved after BTC/TT which were the nadir of Pavement. I was on a road trip and listened to WZ->American Water->Stephen Malkmus and it made a bit more sense.

https://i.imgur.com/5cNG9nI.jpg
La Grande Menace
Jean Lurçat
1957
440x900 cm
Les Musees d'Angers

!

oooooooo

Pretty intense:
http://musees.angers.fr/collections/oeuvres-choisies/musee-jean-lurcat-et-de-la-tapisserie-contemporaine/jean-lurcat-la-grande-menace/index.html

(via Google Translate:)

The "great threat" is the nuclear danger embodied by an eagle spreading its wings over the Earth. This one drops a bomb on our planet, symbolized by a circle on which one can recognize big capitals (bell-towers of Moscow, Eiffel Tower of Paris, skyscrapers of New York, pyramids of Cairo, pagoda of Beijing, temple ancient Athens or Rome). Through the flames of an explosion, one can read "HIROSHIMA". Under the Earth, a volcano is erupting. Jean Lurçat materializes here the idea that "the world lives on a volcano".
On the right, a man at the rudder of a boat moves away from the threat by carrying various animal species. Most are in grisaille. They are contaminated by the buffalo that spreads flames, symbols of atomic fallout.
However, a note of hope is emerging. Three animals stand out and seem to take care of the destiny of the man and his boat: the dog, the owl and the rooster, respectively symbols of loyalty, wisdom and hope. At the front of the boat, a vine takes root and seems to indicate that life is reborn.

With this vessel gathering the various species of creation, Lurçat resorts here to a biblical reference, the episode of the Flood and the ark of Noah in Genesis. Steeped in Judeo-Christian culture, he is inspired by it in his creation.
We also discover here the richness of his bestiary.

Sometimes I get in the mode of listening to “The Hexx” and the two versions of “And Then...” (its predecessor song), over and over. The studio take of “And Then” seems like the first time Malkmus is taking the band through the song (announcing the changes, etc.); and he’s basically singing “dummy lyrics.” The lyrics of the live take are more fleshed-out, but still pretty random and provisional-seeming.

By the time the song was reworked for “The Hexx,” however, Malkmus had written ornate and highly developed lyrics for the verses that were different from most his others (http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/43974/). It’s the only Pavement song where the lyrics don’t scan well for me; they feel belabored, like the song trips over them. (It also seems like a series of elaborate non-sequitors to me; but others seem to find “meaning” in the song.)

Maybe “The Hexx” was just overworked? I like what they did to it musically – it’s cool how the chorus comes just once, early in the song; and the vibe is unique – but I’m not sure it’s necessarily an “improvement” over the “And Then...” template.

always liked Silkworm's version

https://youtu.be/MrFpl6_Rq28

Nice, I'd never heard that. It's always seemed like a good candidate for covers.

Cool, they actually used the Godrich sequence for the new (LP) tracklist:

PAVEMENT ANNOUNCE
“TERROR TWILIGHT: FAREWELL HORIZONTAL”
 
4LP / 2CD EXPANDED REISSUE OF PAVEMENT’S FINAL ALBUM OUT APRIL 8TH pic.twitter.com/dh6YJSJWfs

— PAVEMENT (@pavement_band) January 11, 2022

Not sure I understand why they didn't use it for the 2xCD version as well, but still excited for this!

me neither, that’s a slight bummer

I mean, I can rip it and reprogram it but it seems like part of the point of this whole release is taking a fresh look at the album. Just seems like a weird choice.

they wanna sell more of the $75 LP set, would be my guess

I was just scanning that longish post about The Hexx upthread, thought “this is pretty good,” then realized I wrote it (duh/lol)

what is #shagbag ?

This is from the Pitchfork Sunday review of Terror Twilight from 2019:

(Only one, an instrumental freakout dubbed “Shagbag,” didn’t make the final cut.)

I’m so glad this is finally coming out.

What do you guys think of "Be the Hook"? Nice little jam...

It’s … it’s fun, you know? It makes me think of a day in the studio where the whole band is in a bad mood so the leader tries to instigate a party. Very very difficult from the ultimate form the song would take on the self titled debut Malkmus record.

Different, not difficult

Oh, I didn't know it was on there... will have to go back to that one.

Yeah, very different! I didn’t even realize it was the same song until I heard the guitar solo

Looks like they’re using the Godrich sequencing for the digital release too

...oh yeah, I know this song ("The Hook")

Let's just say... it's a Terror Twilight evening for me.

I've said it here and elsewhere: this is nowhere near my favorite Pavement record, and arguments about its place in the discographies are always a bummer.

BUT

It has some very strong and satisfying component parts that, when they're on, kick my ass. The 3-4 songs that (imo) don't work, or just feel too un-Pavement wind up overshadowing the rest, sadly.

Maybe not "un-Pavement" - maybe they just don't quite resonate for me or something. That's songs like "Ann Don't Cry," "Billie," "Major Leagues." (Brighten The Corners has a couple songs like this too.)

Eh, "Major Leagues" is pretty good.

I always forget about this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ1APx-M5UY

Glad the reissue is finally happening; I love this album. It was the first Pavement I heard, at age 13 when it came out. It was this blurb review in Time magazine that piqued my interest:

Listening to this avant-rock band's new album is like arriving late to a mystery movie. You wonder, "Have I missed something?" In the case of Terror Twilight, you haven't. About a third of the songs on this album lack musical coherence, substituting aimless dissonance and artless artiness for melody and emotion. On a few tracks, however, Pavement lives up to its cerebral reputation; these boast a smart mix of studied elegance and ethereal sweetness. Still, this is a band that needs to replace indulgence with consistency.
--By Christopher John Farley

I was starting to get into "the hard stuff" around this time, so "avant-rock," "artless artiness" and "aimless dissonance" sounded promising to me. When I finally checked the album out at a record store listening station I was very surprised to find that it was by and large mellow, pretty, and conventionally melodic, with only the occasional measured diversion into noisy weirdness (e.g. the deliberately ugly chorus of "Billie"). At any rate, I loved it and bought it and got really deep into Pavement shortly thereafter. I still think Terror Twilight is a better album than Brighten the Corners, though BTC has the higher highs.

In retrospect this whole episode taught me to read album reviews with a great deal of skepticism and to trust my own ears more. So thanks, Christopher John Farley, for missing the mark on Terror Twilight!

This reminds me a bit of the Rolling Stone review for Wowee Zowee. The writer was like the father of a misbehaving child - “I’m not angry, and just really disappointed” - and that bristling exasperation made me curious enough to buy that tape and ultimately become a big fan.

Farley! I remember that byline!

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/wowee-zowee-114288/amp/

the Nirvana-like “Kennel District”

Surely he meant "Flux = Rad"? How do you confuse those two songs

Only thing I was mad about WZ was that it only had three sides.

I remember the cool-guy record store clerk saying he didn't like it (and was only into their early stuff).

That review is a very one listen response to wz and of its time as I remember it being a high point of "alternative rock" popularity and people were expecting them to build on the "success" of cut your hair and they dropped this sprawling mass of a record & blasted through the songs in front of empty pavilion seats at daytime lollapaloozas. Looking back now, it's clearly a masterpiece and shows the band's progression as artists, but this is the terror twilight thread and that album is underrated, the production & sequencing were great on cd & hold up just fine.

terror twilight was actually the first pavement record i heard somehow, i was smitten with malkmus's songwriting and lyrics and esp guitar playing

WZ is my favorite now tho, most 'pavement-y' to me

wait that RS review of CR,CR mentions flying burrito brothers? what flying burrito brothers sounds like that record??

I guess "Range Life" could be construed as "a nod" to the Burrito Brothers?

I remember the cool-guy record store clerk saying he didn't like it (and was only into their early stuff).

When I bought the album the summer after it came out the record store guy excitedly told me "This album restored my faith in music!" (RIP Aboveground Records, Edgartown MA). I find it enjoyable enough but always felt sort of let down after that build-up.

"Speak, See, Remember" is resonating with me a lot more than it once did, particularly these lines - at points almost a "developers' aspirational prayer" or "developers' motivation" or something - and how their stresses fall:

"Buy now!
Develop the coast and raise the, sight lines
The oceans are moving out and, someday
Develop the coast and sell the air
You know if we could, we'd sell the air

Stand back!
Expansion is what we do the best
I don't see the grass and the fields
I see an epicenter with agendas
And you are aware, they must be next
I hope you're aware, they must be next"

A lot (not all) of Terror Twilight is for me about how certain songs present at first, and that presentation is was roots in memory, but the songs morph in fascinating ways when I revisit the record in real-time, like, "oh yeah, there's also this bit, that bit, a choice line rampaging in the late going."

Previous Pavement LPs exist in full form in memory for me, for whatever reason.

Also, the tenor of SM's voice in this part of the song is pretty interesting - hysteria, tedium, and flatness, sometimes in the same breath.

That is one of my favorite bits of the entire album, the way it shifts and accelerates from the previous parts.

Huh, that’s interesting… I’ve never parsed those lines. Thanx for posting that

I never did either, until pretty recently!

Yeah that part rules so much

do it do it do it do it

Speak See Remember is one of those songs that makes me realize the limitations of the band, esp. the drummer. Would be so badass with the "right" drummer/band

I like "speak see remember", definitely one of the more swingin' numbers in their repertoire

The built environment always figured into their lyrics a little bit (and in places like the Wowee Zowee liner art) – usually in a halfway romanticized way – but it seems most explicit on this album; in those lines above, and also "The Hexx" ("reeling in a parking lot" / "standing on the freeway")... like, if you ever wondered why the band is called Pavement.

the Cut Your Hair video, sliding down that freeway embankment

or wait ... was that not Cut Your Hair? Santa suits, bows and arrows, etc.?

Gold Soundz ... right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPvhKV3Yg2k

Was SM’s dad an architect or urban planner, or am I misremembering? I think Spiral Stairs actually did study urban planning after the band broke up.

Being Stephen Malkmus is … easy. You’re born upper-middle class in Los Angeles, the son of a general property/casualty insurance agent.

from https://magnetmagazine.com/2001/04/01/stephen-malkmus-being-stephen-malkmus/

Sounds like Kannberg never actually went to school for it

“I have a few blogs I look at all the time about city planning,” he says. “I get pretty excited about that kind of stuff. I lived in Seattle for a long time and I still follow what’s going on there. San Francisco too. I had the idea that I was going to get back into it but I just kind of let it go and kept making records.”

From https://www.popmatters.com/city-plans-and-vulcan-hands-spiral-stairs-scott-kannberg-speaks-2495400365.html

"there's blood in the butter the kitchen's are closed" always sticks in my head from Speak See Remember. Unhygienic!

xp And people call them slackers...! (ha ha)

I always heard "the kitchens are closed for the holidays" as referring to, like, a ski resort or boarding school... but not sure about that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Ww_O3ceKU

Very on brand to promote this web oddity

The track may be a significant source of $$ for them, considering its numbers (assuming streaming at that level does make money for artists)

weird turn of events! will there be a bunch of gen z kids at the pavement reunion shows? i'm guessing "no" but I don't really know.

Maybe with their parents

Nast really needs to write a memoir

http://vishkhanna.com/2022/04/05/ep-677-pavement/?fbclid=IwAR1IXLmY4sjqOV1EbV9P7ygxG9QzHMblmR3OgjcokUvKi3SATXU43nC9Zsg

he does. man he sounds bitter in that interview though. and he's living in a shack???? yikes. hope the dude is ok

The scuttlebutt for the 2010 reunion tour was that Malkmus did it to help out Nastanovich financially iirc.

yup

I remember that turning up in a MAGNET profile

Also

https://pitchfork.com/features/article/so-much-for-destiny-the-story-of-pavements-terror-twilight/?fbclid=IwAR3VxDN0JcOH7ZIukECQ7pBOFDDDKlSr97e4_QUfEovBhvNNIPXVqfp8zCg

That Pitchfork piece is a good read, but also annoys me all over again that they are only restoring the Gordich sequencing on the LP, but not the CD version. Seems dumb.

in that interview its funny to get godrich's take on the infamous forgetting-bob's-name issue. happy to have some closure on that one.

"Look, maybe I only forgot his name once."

Yeah, that's kinda weak, lol – "there’s five of them and just one of me"

I mean I'm sure he's a nice guy, etc.

he got paid very well for that gig, iirc. least he could do is remember the name of one of the nicest guys in music.

he does. man he sounds bitter in that interview though. and he's living in a shack???? yikes. hope the dude is ok

bob lives in a house, i think he just was recording the podcast in a shed haha.

yeah i wasn't sure.

that pitchfork article is kinda great. i dig the new sequencing too

really hope malkmus tours with the traditional techniques band next year, would love to see that live. seems like he recorded an album this past fall/winter with that crew too, so i hope it happens

Tix for the NY shows are more than $100 each wtf?

what's his name needs a new pair of shoes.

i dig the new sequencing too

It does seem pretty good, I just don't at all get the thinking behind hyping up the new sequencing as something they "fixed up" for the reissue if they were only going to bother doing it on one of the two physical formats. Just seems bizarre.

This version of stereo has me roflin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI5akIHu99E

no idea why they didn't just have Spiral sing lead at that gig

when we did our worldwide deal with Matador [in 2020]

kind of blown away by the economics of the tour, at least the NY dates
4 shows x 3000 capacity x $150 avg price = almost $2 million
songs mean a lot...to someone I guess

Mark Ibold's Kreative Kontrol out now.

Does anyone know other examples of him singing on Pavement tracks, than just Carrot Rope?

Some of the Coachella video comments are great - "Steve hates them so much, he won't play ball" etc

i had never seen that coachella video. . . yikes!!!!!

It’s weird to me how people in bands whose albums are coming out or being reissued are like “yeah, you know, I haven’t heard this yet” but maybe I shouldn’t be surprised

I agree - especially for something like this, which it sounds like the band had an active hand in "producing"

“Have you seen the liner notes?” (That you contributed to)

“No, not yet”

Anyway Spit on a Stranger is a bloody lovely thing and i never heard it before today, somehow.

imo best argument for the godrich running order is spit on a stranger makes for a wonderful closer

Tix for the NY shows are more than $100 each wtf?

Hey, you can buy a ticket or the vinyl (same price!)

Someone says online: I was surprised to see in the credits that Gary Young played drums on the 2 spiral stairs demos, stub your toe and time to...

I do like the Godrich track order. “Shagbag” is a neat little filler/transition.

I forgot about this song “Rooftop Gambler” – it’s a good b-side

It’s kinda funny that this set doesn’t include their viral hit “Harness Your Hopes” (even though it was on the “Spit on a Stranger”single). They coulda double-dipped and threw it on…

Track 24 (“You Are the Light,” recorded at the Portland studio) is a real treat… that classic Pavement vibe.

Don't think I'll ever be able to listen to this album again without agonising about but what the correct sequence should be (probably neither of the official ones)

I have always enjoyed this record which has that "a weird end of the band or first solo album in all but name" vibe, cf Trompe Le Monde, In Through the Out Door, Lamb Lies Down on Broadway... can't think of others right now but you know what I'm talking about.

I'll probably always prefer the original order - I think I get what the Goodrich order is trying to do, clustering the weird stuff at the front and the poppy stuff at the back seems like a reasonable plan to lull the pavement fan with spacy/noisy songs then blindside them with major leagues/carrot rope/stranger, but I like how the original order works, with those 3 poppy songs as first, middle and last tracks of the record, a bolder statement. Daring you to take Malkmus in heart-on-sleeve mode seriously. I love how Carrot Rope lurching in after Hexx just totally deflates that grand statement, and subverts the earlier love songs into something strangely lascivious yet silly. And I don't think Stranger works as a closer, really.

Not a ton of great outtakes compared to the earlier series, as expected based on comments back then. Not including the vocal version of Preston School seems questionable, I always liked those goofy harmonies. I need to sift through my old mp3s and pick out the essential random live tracks from the 90s that were never released, all those hilarious covers like Wonderwall and Love is Lies, and half written songs like the Mark E Smith tune. Never a very convincing live band, I think a live compilation of half-assed fragments from across the 90s would work better.

Also, Malkmus needs a single disc best-of covering his solo stuff with a bonus b-sides disc. Perhaps there'd be interest in ballot polling him? Having his top songs spread across three different spotify entries (Pavement, Stephen Malkmus and the Jicks, and Stephen Malkmus) definitely helps keep his artistic profile a bit artificially low which I assume is what he wants (slacker cred).

I don't care for the Godrich order. The most interesting thing for me to hear is the demos. The melodies are already so fully-formed, even with the lyrics being half-there or absent. Which isn't suprising, but it does shine a necessary light on the fact that SM's primary gift has always been melody, as opposed to lyrics, even though so much attention is paid to those, at least in the Pave era. It makes me wish he and Berman had combined their strengths more often with the Joos (see American Water, especially "Blue Arrangements")

my father came in
from wherever he'd been

I think the original order makes more "sense" and was probably the right one to go with, but the Godrich order breathes fresh air into the album, and it's cool they went with it now (and dumb they didn't with the CD; I would have bought it if they had, but don't see a reason now).

There are definitely some lyrics here where you can tell Berman rubbed off on SM.

Track 24 (“You Are the Light,” recorded at the Portland studio) is a real treat… that classic Pavement vibe.

Correction: this morning, it's showing up as Track 36 (don't know what I was looking at / smoking last night)

Only just noticed "you are a light the calm in the day" sounds a bit "like like the the the death"

Somehow P missed making the rotation in bar / coffee shop playlists. I never hear them in the wild

Nice ending to the Pitchfork review:

It was the album that brought Pavement full circle: dressed for success, but never quite sure if they wanted the job.

I don't care for the Godrich order. The most interesting thing for me to hear is the demos. The melodies are already so fully-formed, even with the lyrics being half-there or absent. Which isn't suprising, but it does shine a necessary light on the fact that SM's primary gift has always been melody, as opposed to lyrics, even though so much attention is paid to those, at least in the Pave era. It makes me wish he and Berman had combined their strengths more often with the Joos (see American Water, especially "Blue Arrangements")

Not sure melody is even one of SM's top 3 strengths (1. cool guitar tunings/chords/progressions, 2. general attitude/approach, 3. vocal delivery / note: idk if these are official, i just typed them out with 10 seconds of thought)

theres definitely a very specific feel to a lot of his melodies thats immediately identifiable as his musical voice. whether its necessarily his primary strength compared to his lyrics though, just bc the lyrics happen to come later in his songwriting process, is debatable imo.

this was cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkmgOjA1Hvc

Malkmus has written memorable melodies: "Major Leagues," "Shady Lane," "Here." I go to him for the pluses that alpine static mentioned.

xps I don't care for the Godrich sequencing either. It's like they told him the album was called Terror Twilight and he was like "got it - so side 1 is 'terror' and side 2 is 'twilight.'" I like/love those first four tracks individually, and I was totally on board with opening with "Platform Blues," but taken all in a row they come across like someone trying a little too hard to be a badass. There's almost an edgelordiness to some of the lyrics ("you're a nice guy, and I hate you for that," etc.) that never really jumped out at me when these songs were spread out across the tracklist.

Also I think the original order worked really well! "Spit on a Stranger" and "Carrot Rope" always struck me as being kind of similar, so I like them as bookends. "Folk Jam" is a great track two. I agree with this from upthread too:

I love how Carrot Rope lurching in after Hexx just totally deflates that grand statement

Bob mentioned on Kreative Kontrol that there were other future Jicks songs they worked on in those sessions, but I guess Malkmus nixed them for this collection, which is too bad. Cool to hear the full band versions of "Porpoise" and "Rooftop Gambler" - I had no idea they ever even attempted those. I'm excited to see what deep cuts they pull out on the tour this year!

YOu can see them rehearse Discretion Grove on the Slow Century movie. . . for a hot second

Didn't one of these (many) other recent TT retrospectives mention something about several band members complaining about leading off with a song that "none of them played on"?

(FWIW, I've never liked "Platform Blues" too much... if anything, I appreciate Godrich getting it "out of the way" early, haha)

I don't like "The Hexx."

It was better when they played it faster and it had a different title

also i think theres plenty of songs in their past that no one played on besides SM. . . . Steve West for example does not seem bothered by being replaced for two tracks in all the press I've read

He does indeed say he wasn't bothered in the Pfork piece ("The thing with Pavement is that some people would play on a record, and some people wouldn’t. It wasn’t really my place to be upset about it.")

I think Ibold and West played on most Pavement songs from Crooked Rain onward. Spiral not so much; he was a big part of Slanted and the early EPs but is basically inaudible on most of Malkmus’s songs on the last few records. You can hear Nastanovich dicking around here and there if you listen closely, but he was always more of a live member than anything else.

It feels like this album has been dissected & reflected more than the rest of the band's catalog at this point... I guess there's a little more to say about how it was recorded than the others (and it was their swan song). But it's kind of a funny example of a band's "no one's favorite*, but not a failure** either" type LP being so thoroughly discussed.

*I'm sure it's someone's favorite
**I suppose it was a financial failure, given the recording cost vs. sales

One of the biggest revelations I’ve had over the past few years is that this record is a LOT of people’s Pavement record.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that, so please don’t come at me

Malkmus' description of "Shady Lane" in the video posted upthread as a sort of bratty, nursery rhyme-type thing pretty much nails why I often dislike his melodies. On the opening verse of "Shady Lane," in particular, Malk sounds like a hyperactive child breathlessly describing to a patiently nodding adult his recent trip to grandma's house. By "Dutch! Dutch! Dutch!" I just want to say "OK, Stephen, very nice, now let's calm down a little and watch iCarly, OK?"

The other takeaway from that video: this band was really never good live, were they?

Shady Lane is awesome.

I don’t know if I’ve ever met a single person who claimed they were even good live. Fun, yes.

Not even "good"? That's a bit strong!

Sloppy but fun is pretty much their elevator pitch.

Just took another spin thru the Godrich tracklist, and the novelty has worn off... Kannberg definitely got it right.

Platform Blues is an inspired choice as an opener and the album always suffered from being too slow to mid-tempo overall (IMO), but yup, original was the way to go. The Hexx second is as daft as a brush.

they're great live. saw 'em 5 times. all great.

bad Pavement experiences are like the "fans of VU started their own bands" thing at this point. a handful of people saw them play badly back in the day, but now everyone on the internet is certain they were always terrible. whatever.

Man, amen to that. Saw em a few times in Chicago at lounge ax & metro & I thought their reunion show @ Millennium Park was just as great - different levels of fun and none of the sloppy to my memory.

who cares if they were good live

The Millennium Park show was transcendent. The Pitchfork set 3 months prior not so much.

saw them not long after slanted & enchanted came out with g.young I think handing out bananas after show, doing handstands etc its was unreal & felt like magic tall dwarfs & 3d's opened I seem to remember Chris Knox put his head through his keyboard but that seems crazy and maybe he just walked his head into it - the noise & the chaos & the melodies & zinging wigged out songs from pavement were sublime & I was enthralled with that whole album the evening was a joy - seen footage from only a few yrs later and they seemed absolutely banal & like it was forced fun in comparison - from my point of view it was all down hill once the unpredictability of Gary Y left -watery domestic a high point some good stuff after but they lost something somehow & then TT seemed like such a horrid artificial thing like a pavement covers band taking the Mickey

Saw them live twice - 1994 and 1997 - and they were good both times, and surprisingly 'tight' (I think having two drummers kept them pretty locked down).

Saw them on the S&E tour in Glasgow at a rubbish venue called The Cathouse, they arrived just as we were queuing outside and Gary was chatting with us all and showing off his new cowboy boots.

The gig was pretty great loose and a measure of fucking about and in-jokes. GY doing his shambolic brinkmanship thing, handstands on the drum stool, my memory tells me that he made cinnamon toast for the audience after the support act too, I remember loaves of Scottish pan bread on the apron of the stage and a toaster, did I dream that? idk

> Not sure melody is even one of SM's top 3 strengths (1. cool guitar tunings/chords/progressions, 2. general attitude/approach, 3. vocal delivery

For me it's how all the aspects of his appeal are part of this complete package - the talented but lazy irony-soaked hipster. Super memorable elegant long vocal melodies reminiscent of Neil Young or REM are there occasionally, like on all the slow songs on Brighten, or Gold Soundz or Trigger Cut. The verses on his best songs seem to tumble forward and take odd turns and then start making big leaps and declarations on the chorus, but with a lot of unexpected choices. But he wasn't interested in crafting a whole album of stuff like that or even a perfect radio-friendly song; that's been done. What we have here is burying these moments in noise or scattering them around silliness. A complete refusal to try to write a "Heart of Gold" or "Everybody Hurts", but to take what is great about those songs and refresh them with strange choices and a ramshackle approach appropriate to the times. And this was the problem with Major Leagues as a single; it was in the uncanny valley where maybe Pavement could be big and popular if I dunno, Better than Ezra could. It was polished too much and the lyric/melody pair were too clearly hopeful and romantic.

Malk's lyrics are occasionally brilliant, but often just cryptic or throwaway, and that seems so appropriate for an underground band in the early 90s with all these super hip production/guitar influences (the fall, bad moon/evol sonic youth, swell maps). Major Leagues could definitely have been arranged in a palatable way for die-hard Pavement fans with an approach that was typical of the band - undercutting the lyric and warmth of the arrangement with some crazy noise section or a scratchy riff, or pushing harder on the lyric to make it a bit weirder. I have come around to the song because I interpret the metaphor of "let's take this relationship to the next level like joining the major leagues" as Malkmus saying fuck it, let's try to make this band truly successful, let's go full Radiohead/Beck, and when that fails, he breaks up the band in resigned disgust. So I can handle this love song because in a sense, it's about loving the band, and wanting to make the relationship work, and that's the kind of thing you might do when your relationship is just about dead.

Did he want Radiohead or Beck's career? I wonder. He comes off like a more sober Paul Westerberg in his casual commitment to self-sabotage.

I don't think of any of those indie bands could have hit it big, anyway (Sebadoh actually did try to write an "Everybody Hurts," with "Willing to Wait"). FWIW, I feel like "Stereo" was a good attempt at an "authentic-feeling Pavement song" that may have had a chance at alt rock radio, but of course it did nothing.

Good post there MIG

I don’t think SM really wanted to take Pavement into some indie rock stratosphere. It was probably Nigel pushing for that and SM being like “yeah, sure, why not, but that’s on you, bro.”

^^^^^

The SM interview in the reissue (from TapeOP, 99) hints at this - trying something new and different, leaning on Nigel to help bear that load. From everything I’ve read this also happened to be the point that Malkmus realized in an undeniable way that he’d formally outgrown a band that wasn’t as into music as he was. (It didn’t help that they didn’t live in the same area, obviously.)

I’m a huge fan but can admit that Malkmus in that era particularly was kind of a petulant guy. (And he couldn’t be bothered to even do a fresh essay or interview as part of the reissue package!)

BUT

If you think about it, he did the right thing: he just ended the band. He didn’t do the thing where he fired everyone and hired session players (or underemployed indie royalty) and charged forward under the Pavement banner.

Breaking up the band preserves a certain sense of legacy and means “we can get everyone back together for a tour every decade or so and make lots of money.”

“This is fun, but I’m never recording with you guys again. Probably.”

idk. I have a different reading – I think he always wanted to push things further with the band, but he just wasn't good at communicating this in the end. He wrote a song making fun of Steve West's drumming... before, I used to think this was just a joke, but starting to think this was passive aggressive at least.

I think so too (re:pushing things further.) I never felt it was a case of Godrich the pop guy vs SM the petulant artiste. SM knew Godrich was a famous hi-gloss commercial producer when they decided to work together, its not like they were assigned to each other at random. i think he was clearly interested in what a polished version of Pavement would sound like, and at that moment it wasnt completely outside the realm of possibility to think such an experiment might have a chance of producing... if not a big hit, then at least a bigger hit than Pavement had seen previously.

i dont think he was racking his brain trying to write a chart topper, but I dont think he was consciously trying NOT to, either. to me it always seemed more like he saw the unique spot Pavement was in and was sort of setting up the right conditions. like "if i happen to write something that might connect, why not have it on a nice-sounding Nigel Godrich album with good playing and see what happens?"

I think the delusion by Westerberg, Mould, Hart, Malkmus, etc. that they could write a chart topper a charming thing. They could write catchy college radio hits. No way on earth "Cut Your Hair" or "Stereo" would've gone top ten no matter how many #1 singles Kurt Cobain earned.

^^This. I'm not a big Pavement guy or anything, but I do know they had a snowball's chance in hell of breaking through on Corporate Alternative Radio in 1999, when Nu Metal, Pop Punk and Guitar Pop with a capital 'P' ruled the roost, and most 'out there' band on tbe airwaves was Cake.

In the pitchfork piece Malk mentions that he conceived the songs on TT as being closer to WZ than BtC which struck me as interesting and makes sense, although I still think of the album as more the first Malkmus solo record that just happened to have Pavement as the backing band. Maybe half or more of the WZ tunes have multi-part structure or feel like two songs grafted together; some of the more "Pavementy" songs on TT have that feeling. Also WZ and TT seem to jump around from vibe to vibe a lot more than BtC, even though TT shares with BtC the "all the songs are slow to midtempo" problem that I attribute to Malk's lack of confidence in West.

> I think the delusion by Westerberg, Mould, Hart, Malkmus, etc. that they could write a chart topper a charming thing.

Well maybe, but it definitely does happen from time to time that an underground band after years of toiling has a top US hit. In the late 90s these include breakthough hits of varying size and quality by long timers Sugar Ray, Luscious Jackson, Chumbawumba, and the Verve; and Westerberg-lite Goo Goo Dolls of course had a string of hits. Major Leagues was never gonna be that, but you can make an interesting playlist of late 90s bands doing AOR sounding vaguely retro maybe Tusk or Nightfly influenced type stuff like it by Pavement's similarly melodically gifted reforming ex-slacker peers Mercury Rev, Flaming Lips, PJ Harvey, and of course Silver Jews.

I don't blame them for trying; it resulted in fascinating songs.

xpost

Sugar Ray, Luscious Jackson, Chumbawumba, and the Verve

Different ears, etc., but those bands had a better talent for radio fodder than Malkmus -- and even "Naked Eyes" didn't rise above the top 35.

I doubt he or anyone else then-living had any illusions about Pavement in the top 10, but I dont think it would have been crazy for Malkmus or Godrich to imagine them lucking into something that did as well as "Naked Eye" or "Pepper", with the right tune & production. Obv it turned out SM didnt have the goods, but I never bought the self-sabotage storyline that he was actively running away from that kind of success. I think he would have been fine if "Spit on the Stranger" hit the top 40.

He wrote a song making fun of Steve West's drumming... before, I used to think this was just a joke, but starting to think this was passive aggressive at least.

This was obviously a dick move by Malkmus if true, but when I listen to early Pavement I'm kind of floored by how great of a drummer Gary Young was compared to Steve West (see e.g. "Jackals, False Grails: The Lonesome Era" and the entirety of Watery, Domestic). Dude was solid as a rock and tasteful but could drop fills like an octopus at exactly the right moments. The way the drums are recorded on those records makes them sound thin and papery, but the playing is way tighter than West's would ever be. I still think the best Pavement mostly came after Gary left, but they lost a great player when they let him go.

Obv it turned out SM didnt have the goods, but I never bought the self-sabotage storyline that he was actively running away from that kind of success. I think he would have been fine if "Spit on the Stranger" hit the top 40.

Sure, but there was this bizarre self-sabotaging trope in Amerindie, especially with dudes, that you can't strive openly for hits. It wasn't a problem at all in England.

Xp I think that besides all of Gary's other baggage, Malkmus wasn't particularly into having Gary's octopus arms around anymore either though, lest they knock him off his bergeoning carpet ride guitar jams mid-flight. He probably thought that West + Bob's bizzaro bits would make up for what he lost in Gary & maybe sometimes give him that 2 drummer pocket like Jerry Garcia had.

Pavement w/ Steve and mark vs Gary is a completely different band

I'm a little stoned and I imagined Tony Hadley in Pavement.

"LISTEN. to. MEEEEE. I'm on the. STEREEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

No way on earth "Cut Your Hair" or "Stereo" would've gone top ten no matter how many #1 singles Kurt Cobain earned.

I doubt he or anyone else then-living had any illusions about Pavement in the top 10, but I dont think it would have been crazy for Malkmus or Godrich to imagine them lucking into something that did as well as "Naked Eye" or "Pepper", with the right tune & production. Obv it turned out SM didnt have the goods, but I never bought the self-sabotage storyline that he was actively running away from that kind of success. I think he would have been fine if "Spit on the Stranger" hit the top 40.

Feel like a lot of this is tied up in radio promotion and record/CD promotion. It doesn't seem crazy to me that Cut Your Hair or Stereo would have been hits, weirder songs have been big hits. . . I don't think it's "didn't have the goods" here it's all about them not being on a major label and getting the major label push. If you don't believe me. . . just think about Green Day for a second. Pretty big underground band that got MASSIVE when they moved to a major

Thats true, I can totally see a world where a major label push could have gotten those songs to crack the charts the late-90s charts to some extent. With "didnt have the goods" I was thinking more that the "SM as petulant, success-averse artiste" idea implies (to some extent at least) that he could have been writing more obvious catchy mainstream radio fodder but was deliberately withholding out of pride/indie cred/brattiness, which I never really bought - I think if he could have, he would have.

To my ears Green Day were better at writing scream-at-the-top-of-your-lungs radio choruses. Green Day mean little to me.

I was going to say that if a band like the Dandy Warhols could fashion a hit like "Bohemian Like You" than so could Pavement, only to find out that...Bohemian never even charted in the US.

Nor did Green Day until 2004.

You mean 1994?

Bohemian Like You b/w Bahamian Like Me

You mean 1994?

― klonman

They didn't score a top 40 hit in America until 2004. You're thinking of the modern rock chart.

Relevant quote from Malkmus in Slow Century re: Rattled by the Rush and Father to a Sister of Thought: "I was smoking a lot of pot at the time, but they sounded like hits to me."

Damn not even Good Riddance?

I think I have serious cognitive dissonance assuming the songs I heard in 90s that saturated modern rock radio were actually popular in the mainstream.

To my ears Green Day were better at writing scream-at-the-top-of-your-lungs radio choruses. Green Day mean little to me.

Great but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a band getting a push from a major label and having a "hit" so to speak and being massively popular etc. I think Pavement would have had a hit if they'd had the backing of a major label and a push etc.

That makes sense. And I wasn't contradicting nor arguing with you. I was making a point.

Damn not even Good Riddance?

I think I have serious cognitive dissonance assuming the songs I heard in 90s that saturated modern rock radio were actually popular in the mainstream.

― klonman

Billboard was unyielding about not allowing songs to chart without retail singles. It's possible that on airplay alone "Good Riddance" might've charted.

That makes sense. And I wasn't contradicting nor arguing with you. I was making a point.

totally. and share your non interest in Green Day

It doesn't seem crazy to me that Cut Your Hair or Stereo would have been hits, weirder songs have been big hits. . .

Weezer’s “Buddy Holly” (shudder) is the closest analogue that immediately comes to mind. Still, I think Pavement’s sound and lyrics were even “weirder” to non-indie-listening ears.

I was thinking Cannonball by the Breeders. Stereo has a similar vibe. There's a video of SM talking about the anniversary of Crooked Rain where he mentions that the Breeders were in the buzz bin on MTV and he wanted to get into the buzz bin but never did.
Last Splash went platinum!

Pavement also never wrote anything as good as Buddy Holly

Cannonball is a good call… But it’s tighter than Stereo, and has that hook

Not the point of the thread, but an elaboration of Alfred’s point: Green Day not charting on the Hot 100 until 2004 is entirely due to the old physical-singles-only rule. “Time of Your Life” was a radio hit just before Billboard allowed songs without a physical single release to chart. Longview, Basket Case, When I Come Around, J.A.R., Geek Stink Breath (!), and Time of Your Life all made the top 40 of the mainstream airplay charts. “When I Come Around” made it all the way to #6. None of the songs from “Warning,” in 2000, was a big enough hit to chart after the rule change. Anyway, carry on.

Pavement also never wrote anything as good as Buddy Holly

― PaulTMA, Thursday, April 14, 2022 11:44 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

That'll be the Day is a classic for sure.

https://i.imgur.com/HwQEVuY.jpg

Major label push

Don't Look Up

Gotta say, TT does feel a little ahead of its time in terms of the indie rock/jam band fusion thing it has going on at points. Feel like you could put a nice through-line from Terror Twilight > Ghost is Born > Garcia Peoples and other contemporary indie jam acts.

It's notable because in 99 most indie rock fans wouldn't caught dead admitting to liking jam band stuff and vice versa.

are we sure the title with "jam" in it doesn't refer to raspberry

That’s an interesting comment, because I feel like BTC actually gets closer to jam territory. (I feel like I knew a few Phish heads in college, around that time, who became aware of Pavement.)

(maybe through me, lol)

Could very well be the case, I haven't re-visited BTC in a long time.

Definitely met a few hippies that were open to Pavement, more-so than the Mercury Revs/Beta Bands or whoever else that was getting hype in 99/00.

they def had a jam trajectory. i'd argue some songs on WZ (half a canyon, fight this generation, esp live) edged toward jamming. also otm about it not being cool at the time. . . but man there is not much difference between late era pavement and some of the "newer" songs on Europe 72

Yeah, there are moments on BTC that sound like bits of Dead jams (right down to the shaggy timekeeping). I have thought in the past that Pavement could have evolved into a Bonnaroo mainstay act, if they had stayed together and gone in that direction (...of course they would have had to become "better players," and I'm not sure if most the guys had that in them).

It's funny because it's hard to recall many honest-to-god pure guitar solos in Pavement songs, but there's a lot of moments of half-solos, instrumental passages etc., where you get a glimpse that Malk is pretty skilled.

I assume this expanded in his Jicks work but to be honest I haven't delved into the catalog (I think heard Pig Lib once and that's it).

yeah, i'd say real emotional trash is the one that really expands on that idea

Getting back to the "why didn't they have hits like other offbeat bands" thing – it's kinda interesting that Sonic Youth had two higher-charting Alternative Airplay tracks (100% and Kool Thing) than Pavement's sole "hit" (Cut Your Hair, which reached #10).

Pig Lib includes the 9min jam "1% of One", which at the time kinda felt like him shedding whatever hangups he had about formally identifying as a jamming guitar guy

Pig Lib in many ways feels super jammy but also very controlled and concise. It was like he’d gotten the self titled debut out of his system and was ready to get serious, or “serious,” or however you wanna parse that.

(If I ever pitch another 33 1/3 book it will be for Pig Lib or Washing Machine.)

Pig Lib jams are his take on Pentangle/Mellow Candle.

I’ve often thought that late-Pave and solo Malk was on a collision course with Phish. Folk Jam could easily be a Phish song. I blv Phish covered Gold Soundz live at least once.

Mellow candle, really?

Pig Lib bonus EP even features a killer cover of MC's "The Poet & the Witch"

that ep is so good i always forget about it.

also, ha, has a song called Old Jerry!

I blv Phish covered Gold Soundz live at least once.

Yep, but just the once. Prolly because Trey had problems remembering all the lyrics. It's a fine version otherwise, kinda wish they'd have played it more often.

https://relisten.net/phish/1999/07/21/gold-soundz?source=163662

Woah, I didn't know that happened - he kinda flubbed the guitar part too. I always thought it would be cool if phish covered wowee zowee for a Halloween show, because it would confuse or piss off large portions of both fan bases, but there is definitely some common ground there.

Yeah Trey is a noted huge fan of Pavement (and My Bloody Valentine).

Which I would assume is the genesis of the "They've got a dog she named Trey" line in "Jenny and the Ess-Dog"

Ok, I love Platform Blues as the first track and that tight transition to The Hexx is pretty great.

Listened to TT for the first time in a long time tonight. I think its a challenge to find a good sequencing for the album because it just has too many draggy interchangeable midtempo songs. I think they should have gone further in the direction of trying something different with the arrangements. They do it a bit: the acoustic guitar, the harmonica, maybe a banjo at one point? And I think those are some of the better moments. The cringiest moments are when they dial up the distortion on the guitars to show they are still hard rockers, man, because it feels like their hearts are not in it.

Who’s fault is it? I think it’s sm’s…looking back to Brighten, the slog had started, eg “type slowly”

I think "Type Slowly" has real tension and musical interest, though (and that guitar break in the middle is really pretty). Even the final two songs on BTC, which have always felt draggy to me as a pair (and especially as an end to the album), work well individually – they're slow, but atmospheric.

Heck - if you want a real midtempo slog, look back to "Range Life." I always sort of forget/block out how weak Side 2 of CRCR is (after "Gold Soundz")... it's their weakest stretch, IMO.

The cringiest moments are when they dial up the distortion on the guitars to show they are still hard rockers, man, because it feels like their hearts are not in it.

That "Sue the fortune teller" bit in "Billie" always sounded like Pavement trying too hard to be Pavement.

I like all their albums, but I felt that this was the one where they weren't trying too hard, like they didn't feel there they had to meet a certain quota of irony or slackness, or cover up less-than-solid songwriting with weird arrangements or performances.

xxp Range Life is a slog? one of their very best, a roller.

without question ^^

also the "sue the fortune teller" part of Billie is a fleeting rad moment on an album with too few of those

I think the "Quarantine the Past" greatest hits comp did a pretty good job of cherry picking the best tracks. If you look at the album breakdown it's:

S+E: 5
CR, CR: 5
WZ: 2
BTC: 4
TT: 1

assorted early EPs: 6

These track counts make a pretty accurate measure of the relative consistency of the albums. WZ was the first slump, BTC a return to form, and then TT the sign of the end.

uh, WZ is their peak, lol

When WZ came out, I didn't really care for it. I made a point of not buying it for a long time, even though I'd been a huge fan up to that point. Too long and inconsistent, I think was my main complaint. The main problem was that everything up to that point had been so brilliant that almost nothing could have lived up to the expectations. However its got that classic Pavement sound and most of the songs are pretty good, so I like it better now.

WZ was where I got on, and as such it’s the measuring stick for everything else (for me).

That said, WZ and CRCR are neck and neck at the top for me now, though they achieve different things.

BTC has grown on me but it remains the beginning of the end imo. “Fin” is the standout there, on some Goldilocks shit, because it’s just right, existing at the perfect tempo and intensity. If it has a flaw, it’s that I wish it was longer! Everything else, in comparison, is either straining to hard or falls slightly flat.

(The BTC b-sides and Pacific Trim fare better that the album as a whole.)

Listening to WZ now after listening to TT, and the main thing that you notice is how much more present the lead guitar is. I think Pavement often works best as a dialog between Malkmus's slacker mumbles and yelps and the twisty, melodic lead guitar lines. The guitar needs to be there as a foil, to bring out the melodic content that can get lost in the mumbled vocals by themselves. On TT, the lead guitar mostly goes missing, and the tasteful more polished accompaniment leaves the vocals too exposed.

I think you’re into something there, o. nate.

yeah thats a great point. it's almost like TT is the sound of them trying to do a back-to-basics/"5 guys playing in a room" record focused on band interplay, while forgetting that Pavement is... not that kind of band

5 guys playing in a room, until Malkmus erases a lot of what those guys are doing and does it himself or brings in a session musician.

Yeah - "back to basics" is a curious characterization of TT, given how it was produced/recorded.

I've been listening to CRCR: LA's Desert Origins today. All the bonus stuff from that period is so good, the band was really on fire.

(It’s also true that Malk’s lead gtr playing in those days was just awesome, and that spark kind of dimmed after WZ, for whatever reason)

"5 guys playing in a room" maybe captures more of the idea, at least in terms of how the end result was supposed to sound, if not in fact how it was to be recorded. It does seem like they were going for a small-group ensemble sound with balanced contributions from each instrument, instead of a sound that was largely shaped around one instrument, ie the lead guitar. Not sure why Malkmus in particular wanted to do that. Later in his solo career, he embraced his inner shredder, so to speak, on guitar-dominated efforts like "Real Emotional Trash".

xp

Its fun to speculate about the psychology. Maybe Malkmus was feeling like he was outgrowing the band and experiencing some guilt about that. Indie rock culture in those days kind of fetishized subsuming your ego to the larger unit (all the abstract band monikers and the showy disdain for pecuniary motives). So it was almost like he overcompensated by trying to create a simulacrum of a happy balanced egalitarian band sound on TT, even if he had to play all the parts himself. Also maybe why his lyrics on TT sound a bit petulant and self-pitying.

It's hard not to wonder a little how the album would have turned out if Godrich had never gotten involved. Like, if things had worked out at the original Portland session, and the band had just rolled with it. As a non-musician, it's a little hard for me to understand why the guys had such trouble picking up the songs at first (beyond maybe just being out of practice). Are the compositions really so complex?

Like, just listening to this version of "Pueblo Domain" playing on my speaker now – this is the guys at a Peel Session, they probably didn't do a ton of rehearsing, and it does not seem like this song is much less complex or easier to learn than something like "Folk Jam"(?)

I’m not a musician but Folk Jam seems like it has way more changes.

Everything I’ve read - in the press, in the reissue- seems to boil down to this: Malkmus practiced, and was a never ending quest to become a better musician, and the others kinda didn’t.

Wow! Mangled language, but you get what I mean.

He probably felt like he was carrying the whole band (and surrounding enterprise) on his back, and had had enough. It seemed like this is part of why he brought Nigel in for the album, to help carry some of the load in a way.

Yeah - "back to basics" is a curious characterization of TT, given how it was produced/recorded.

sure of course its not actually that kind of an album, but o nate's observations got me wondering if that kind of a sound was in anyone's mind. but because pavement the band unit wasnt actually capable of that (see: portland sessions), the tastefulness of the arrangements almost seem like malk was trying to frankenstein that sound together post facto (alongside whatever else was happening with godrich.) he's certainly enough of a music fan to be aware of the trope of the tasteful mature "no fireworks" kind of mid-career rock album.

Maybe, but I feel like BTC already kind of was that album? TT felt very much like a self-conscious “studio product“ – with its psychedelic smears, guest musicians, etc.

It’s their Siamese Dream, lol

They should’ve work with Butch Vig; maybe Thurston & Kim could’ve helped negotiate a discount…

Who’s fault is it? I think it’s sm’s…looking back to Brighten, the slog had started, eg “type slowly”

It's all about the drummer--Steve is a naturally slower drummer, even Malkmus admits that on the new Matador podcast. Gary wouldn't have known what to do with the newer/slower songs on BTC/TT but I mean, imagine Janet W. on some of the numbers. . .

also it's OTM about Malkmus being the only person actively trying to get better at an instrument. Spiral even complains about all of the hard chords in the newer songs, think it was in the Pitchfork thing.

new LA Times interview w/ SM says they're bringing a keyboard player on tour! curious who it'll be.

Rebecca Cole (from Wild Flag and the Minders)

ah ... makes sense.

but because pavement the band unit wasnt actually capable of that (see: portland sessions), the tastefulness of the arrangements almost seem like malk was trying to frankenstein that sound together post facto

Otm

SM wearing same shirt as seen on back cover of Starlite Walker?: https://www.instagram.com/p/CcvpxHEPyxS/

"Folk Jam" is much more enjoyable on this tour, partly because Malkmus's become a much better improviser so it's now a showcase for some mellow jamming.

Right when they go into the "Marquee Moon" segue, it can get really nice. (Not sure if every show has been like that though.)

listening to malkmus's demos from the deluxe reissue and i'm really surprised how synth-heavy they are. makes me wish the final album had malkmus's synth noodling all over it too, some of these are really great

i have to say i'm devastated to learn that it's "lip balm on watery clay" and not "ripple on watery clay" which i really loved as a predecessor to "relationships hey hey hey".

I think I thought it was “pitcher of watery clay”

I’ve come to realize that I didn’t correctly parse many of the lyrics on that album.

Malkmus giveth & malkmus taketh away.

i can hear both, but have always heard lip balm but i get it i get it

it's like malkmus anticipated those tiktok videos wherein you "hear" the person saying whatever words you're looking at

either way she kisses like a rock, okay

it was seriously a couplet i found solace in when going through issues with my partner. it would repeat in my head

Ripple on watery clay
relationships hey hey hey

there's something so comforting in that

and yeah, "you kiss like a rock but you know i need it anyway" is a beaut