"Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness" by the Smashing Pumpkins

SIDE B:
Love

and maybe some other songs too

Thirty-Three

My 1999 take. I don't feel like updating it.

I relate to a lot of what Ned says in his review. Having Alan Moulder involved on this probably helped big time!

I think the exclusion of "Stumbleine" on the original list is a crime (as well as the two songs I mentioned upthread).

But.... It would have worked better as a 70 minute plus single album rather than an overlong double CD.

It's a true stunner - just pure indulgence from start to finish and yes, at the time I would listen to it from start to finish. I tried listening again the other day - some bits stuck out and others faded into the background, but that's merely from having heard it so many times that it's been etched upon my eardrums like a hot pie or a pasty. No mainstream rock band is doing something this big at the moment. It seems that after OK Computer and Mellon Collie, people decided to go back to just drums/guitar/bass punk singalongs as they knew they couldn't compete. I even like the jokey tracks at the end. "Beautiful" just sums up mid-teen crushes so well. "We Only Come Out At Night"; "Lily My One And Only" - these are awesome fun tunes like those on the White Album. Then you've got wicked rockers like "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" and "Love". It's too too good.

But to a 15 year old kid, this tastes like candy-apples. It is a decade old album, and in the same way that at the time we laughed at the Human League, the Smiths and Big Daddy Kane, so to do we about this in 2006. This is why it'll be critically re-evaluated in another ten years and top many a best-of list.

Hmm. I was 24. Maybe it's an American thing. ;-)

Cheers to Charlie.

entirely OTM.
i still go back to this one occasionally, but end up only listening to rough 1/2 of it. otherwise, it's a total nostalgia trip and not entirely a worthwhile one.

as far as the singles go- i can really only listen to 1979+33 (odd, both the number name ones!). zero's alright on a drunken night. BWBW's=blech. even as a fan.

Siamese Dream still destroys this album for me. Picese, too.
Adore= dreck of drecktown.
Machina 1= only slightly better.

I don't have a particular CD80 version in mind (yet), but I know that I'd cut "Zero" and "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" in a heartbeat. I don't particularly care for either.

And I could take or leave "Tonight, Tonight," but "Thirty-Three" and "1979" would be essential.

This gets my award for worst lyrics ever:

"Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanliness
And cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like me (dumb)
Intoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness (peeee-YUKE!)
Bullshit fakers (like Billy?), enchanted kingdoms
The fasion victims (Oh, like Billy?) chew their charcoal teeth" (dumb)

I'll never forget seeing the debut of the "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" video on Much Music. It would have been October 95.

The lyrics, the riffs, the imagery in the video - all of it made me nauseous. I was extremely disappointed with the album, and I didn't pay attention to them from that moment on.

I think Wogan made a good point. Probably would have sounded great had I been a teenager. I was 23 at the time.

@ concept of this thread

------

01 Where Boys Fear to Tread
02 Bodies
An excellent start to disc two of Mellon Collie; my version keeps both tracks intact, mirroring the one-two punch of "Cherub Rock" and "Quiet, rocking out at the start and avoiding the singles so far.

03 Muzzle
This should have been a single from Mellon Collie; it would be the lead single (and prominently placed third track, like "Today") on my version.

04 1979
05 Here Is No Why
A good spot for a couple strong songs (think "Hummer" and "Rocket") which deserve to come sooner than later in the album; "1979" would be the second or third single, along with...

06 Thirty-Three
07 We Only Come Out at Night
The last of the three singles from my version gets the spot of "Disarm" here, with an excellent low-key song (a la "Soma") to follow it and complement its mood perfectly.

08 Jellybelly
Lest the album go soft before its time, "Geek USA" is mirrored by this one.

09 Galapogos
The epic song, like "Mayonaise," that would rightfully be a fan favorite comes at this point; too far back in the track listing for fair-weather fans, just right for those who learn the album front-to-back.

10 Stumbleine
11 Thru the Eyes of Ruby
12 Lily (My One and Only)
Following the path of "Spaceboy"-"Silverfuck"-"Sweet Sweet" comes this trio of songs; the album's ambitious, lengthy, epic song bookended with a couple shorter, prettier ones.

13 Farewell and Goodnight
The closer on Mellon Collie stays where it should be, closing the album (like "Luna") with subtlety and beauty.

------

I don't really miss anything from the original Mellon Collie with my version, either.

> The ridiculous RAWK songs - "Zero," "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," "Fuck You," "Scorched Earth," and "XYU" - would be perfect for '90s alt-rock bands who actually deserve to suck, not the Pumpkins.

> The slower discarded songs - "To Forgive," "Cupid De Locke," "Take Me Down," "In the Arms of Sleep," "Beautiful," and "By Starlight" - are sappy and forgettable to my ears, especially compared to similar songs that made the cut.

> "Mellon Collie," the instrumental intro, was appropriate for an ambitious double album, not for my version.

> A couple songs in particular - "Tonight, Tonight" and "Love" - just didn't fit the overall mood of my version of the album.

> Two epics on my version would be excessive, so "Porcelina" was left behind in favor of "Ruby," which works better in context.

I've never had any use at all for "Stumbleine." You're probably right about opening with "Where Boys Fear To Tread" - I thought about doing it that way too, I mean that opening bass slide is such a fabulous stage-setter! Something appeals to me about cutting straight in on the out-front riffing trudge of "Zero" though - it sets up an idea of what the album is that will then be immediately blown to pieces by what follows.

Glad to see "Thru The Eyes of Ruby" and "Galapogos" getting their due in any case. And my local alt-rock station actually played "Muzzle" so much I thought it was the final single!

No mainstream rock band is doing something this big at the moment. It seems that after OK Computer and Mellon Collie, people decided to go back to just drums/guitar/bass punk singalongs as they knew they couldn't compete.

This is interesting! I was satisfied thinking of these albums as unique for the period, but has mainstream rock really not produced anything in this vein since? I'm racking my brain and I'm sure we're missing something really obvious. Granted, there have been "ambitious" mainstream rock albums - I guess American Idiot is being viewed this way - but not with this much sonic variety and sheer quantity of different ideas and hooks in play. Who'll be the next to try? For some reason I think Modest Mouse could have it in them - they've certainly done huge widescreen albums before, and have shown at least some willingness to bend on the guitar-band format. Dunno, though.

I don't really like the kitchen sink approach, though - Cave's album is more sonically cohesive than Mellon Collie could ever claim to be, and a lot stronger for it. I much prefer Mellon Collie in its truncated form; I would skip around anyway listening to the whole thing.

What would you suggest to take the place of "Stumbleine" as a slower transitional track to "Ruby" anyway?

second the praise of abbatoir blues/lyre of orpheus.

Interesting that you draw a comparison between "Soma" and "We Only Come Out at Night," b/c "Soma" = EPIC GUITAR FREAKOUT. "Porcelina" would seem like a more obvious choice, but I think I understand yr choice.

HOLLA BACK STAN I GOT U COVERED!!!!!!!!

They supposedly had 45 songs going into the studio.

Just a totally played out venture, Darcy and Johnny Aha were nowhere to be heard from.

I think "We Only Come Out at Night" relates more to the first 3:00 and last :45 of "Soma" than to the guitar parts in the middle - I was really trying to capture the overall mood of the song, and I remember "Soma" as a come-down in the wake of the bombastic high of "Disarm" more so than a guitar song, believe it or not.

No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em.

28 songs on Mellon Collie, plus 21 Corgan or Iha songs that ended up being b-sides . Damn, that's enough songs for four full length albums!

But yeah, they needed an editor for this album. I always thought the second disc was much stronger than the first. I would take...

Cupid de Locke, Galpagos, and Porcelina off the first disc.

Thirty-Three, In the Arms of Sleep, 1979, Stumbeline, X.Y.U. (maybe), We Only Come Out at Night, Lily, By Starlight off of the second.

That comes out to about 52 minutes, and a much less rocking album. But to my ears at least, the more rocking Pumpkins songs are the ones that have dated the worst. The guitar histrionics don't really blow me away like they used to, and that's when Corgan tends to bust out his most embarassing lyrics. My version would come out closer to the mood of Adore, which is fine with me because I always liked Adore better than Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie or Gish.

I haven't listened to either disc of this album in forever, however, I do often listen to a mix CD I made a few years back containing a short list of their longest, most overblown songs (which are invariably my favs) - "Porcelina..." and "Through The Eyes Of A Ruby" are included (as is my other favorite ginormous Punkins jam "Starla").

Thru The Eyes of a Ruby
Soma
Silverfuck
Starla
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans

"(Aeroplane Over the Sea or something like that)"

Even better!

this is, obviously, crazy talk.

if you do not concede that Siamese Dream's roar+bluster demolishes Adores faux-goth leanings and electronic feel, you, sir, are missing out on the whole sheebang.

"No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em."
happily, after all these years, i think i've heard a good amount of em, and have em in high quality (thank you Gravity Demos!!!! that thing slays me in many ways, but none as better {or as telling as where MCIS would go} as the indominateable 'Jackboot') which, ya know,i got that goin for me...

But Adore can never be the bad Smashing Pumpkins album because "Appels + Oranjes" PWNS PWNS PWNS

I guess I am missing out of the traditional appeal of the Smashing Pumpkins. I do have to admit that I didn't start listening to music, not even radio, until early 1998, so except for hearing Bullet with Butterfly Wings blasting out of a car passing by, I have no idea what it felt like to listen to the music when it was contemporary. By the time I got around to listening to Siamese Dream around 2000, a lot of it already sounded dated to my ears.

If there were ever an album that needed trimming more than those off Mellon Collie, it's fucking Adore for those four yawnfest songs at the end.

Agreed, except for "For Martha". That's been one of my favorite Smashing Pumpkins songs since I first heard it.

Not sure how much it counts as mainstream rock, but Worlds Apart reminded me of this album quite a bit.

i almost feel bad for people who got into SP during MCIS, they missed the good part of their career (and many will say "there's a GOOD part?!"). after the whole JImmy Debacle, it was only downhill for them to me.

"Worlds Apart reminded me of this album quite a bit."
a little, i guess. or maybe MCIS reminds me of Worlds's Apart (and quite possibly why i don't dig that album as much).

OTM
sucked then, sucks now

Ok maybe Ned or someone wld know this, but was Corgan a stan for Japan? I'm listening to "Fall in Love with Me" and it sounds like the mother source of half this album.

Been a while since I heard said song so I'm giving a listen now -- good catch! I remember Corgan mostly talking about things like Joy Division, Bauhaus and the Cure when it comes to the goth/proto-goth stuff he loved most but this would make perfect sense as something else in the mix.

For those wondering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvxrfCm0I0s

Glad you hear it too.

The earlier Japan stuff is sometimes a blind spot for me so this is v. helpful (it's a bit like how I keep forgetting how good/weird/potentially inspiring Adam Ant's Dirk Wears White Sox is).

I can't get into Japan's first two albums at all.

ha that japan track. the round lead guitar tone + bratty vocals are v Pumpkins indeed

"Set The Ray to Jerry" is pretty Japan-ish, if I remember, in a more contemplative mode. One of two Smashing Pumpkins songs I remain nostalgic for (along with "Glynis").

When it breaks down in the chorus it isn't as evident, but the verses on that Japan song Ned posted really does sound like Smashing Pumpkins.

anyone who hates "Zero" hates rock and roll imo

fuck you if you disagree

relax your vagina Curt1s

THOSE FUCKING HARMONICS!!!

Hoo damn, "Porcelina," what a grower - - skipped the shit out of it when I first got this, seems like the best song on the album to me now.

2nd behind Ruby which I was rocking earlier - long-form suited these guys

relax your vagina Curt1s

― Turangalila, Sunday, 18 April 2010 05:03 (10 months ago)

anyone who hates "Zero" hates rock and roll imo

― babbylon falling (Curt1s Stephens), Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:45 PM (11 months ago) Bookmark

what i dislike about "Zero" is how little it rocks, has such a steady metronome feel and static guitar arrangement that only leaps out for a few seconds for that goofy solo, whereas most of SP's best aggressive uptempo songs really jump out of the speakers and swing and breathe

I wonder if adults felt the same way about something like The Cure's Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me when it came out? There may be some similarities between them. Except that I'm drawn to The Cure's album, flaws and all, whereas even the supposedly strong moments on the Pumpkins album repelled me. I actually was able to listen to it all the way through for the first time recently when I was working on my 90s thing for the first time since it came out. 15+ years later, it doesn't give me hives anymore. Anyone else liked the Pumpkins through Siamese Dream, then hated them beyond reason, and came back round to grudging acceptance?

"Porcelina" has always been my favourite on that album along with "1979" and "Tonight Tonight".

A patchy album it is though. And obviously way too long.

Coincidentally I was just reading Jim DeRogatis' Milk It, and got to the chapter on his contentious relationship with Billy Corgan. He absolutely hates the lyrics of the first three albums, but was actually pretty positive about the music on Mellon Collie:

Corgan and James Iha stretch out on several fiery guitar workouts, covering the gamut from Tom Scholz-style studio perfection to Sonic Youth noise-rock skronk. The Pumpkins deftly swing from unapologetic art rock (the nine-minutes-plus "Porcelina of the vast Oceans" to pop metal in the Boston or Journey vein ("Tonight Tonight"), and from techno-industrial lullabies ("Beautiful") to twisted cow punk ("We Only Come Out at Night"). Brimming with hooks, the songs quickly work their way into your subconscious, making the album seem a lot shorter than it is...

Musically, Mellon Collie solidifies Corgan's position as one of his generation's most ambitious songwriters--no one else in alternative rock's superstar stratum has attempted an album of such length, let alone scope, and it may even match The Wall in its sonic accomplishments. But his lyrics don't fare nearly as well in comparison. It may be too much to ask that Corgan be as poetic as Kurt Cobain or as earnest as Eddie Vedder, though his therapeutic self-examinations could at lest probe as deeply as Trent Reznor's. But while Waters's tale of the rock star Pink only reached the literary level of a comic book, "We don't need no education / We don't need no thought control" seems deeper, more universal, more entertaining--and heck, a lot more inspiring--than, "Living makes me sick / So sick I wish I'd die."

Crap production. Crap lyrics. Crap singing. Crap concept. Great album though.

Got reissue if you want it:

--

MELLON COLLIE AND THE INFINITE SADNESS

DELUXE BOX SET:

– 5CD +DVD

– Physical Tracks: 106, Digital Tracks: 92

– Original album remastered for the first time

– 64 bonus tracks of previously unreleased material or alternate versions of Mellon Collie era songs

– DVD featuring live show filmed at the Brixton Academy, London (1996) and bonus performances from Rockpalast (1996)

– Housed in a 12 x 12 lift-top box with magnetic closure, reimagined cover art and velvet-lined disc holder

– 2 books containing personal notes, lyrics, new collage artwork plus a Decoupage kit for creating your own scenes from the Mellon Collie universe.

VINYL

– 4LP (180gram), Original album remastered for first time, 28 tracks

– Remastered vinyl features the original record spread out over 8 sides (4 LPS) for the first time to ensure the optimum sound

– MCIS never before released on vinyl in the US (original vinyl previously released in the UK)

– Housed in 12x12 rigid slipcase with 2 books containing personal notes, new collage artwork, lyrics and more.

2CD

- Original double album remastered for the first time

- Physical and Digital Tracks: 28

TRACKLISTS

Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness

Dawn To Dusk (CD1)

1. Mellon Collie And The Infinite Sadness

2. Tonight, Tonight

3. Jellybelly

4. Zero

5. Here Is No Why

6. Bullet With Butterfly Wings

7. To Forgive

8. An Ode To No One

9. Love

10. Cupid De Locke

11. Galapogos

12. Muzzle

13. Porcelina Of The Vast Oceans

14. Take Me Down

Twilight To Starlight (CD2)

1. Where Boys Fear To Tread

2. Bodies

3. Thirty-Three

4. In The Arms Of Sleep

5. 1979

6. Tales Of A Scorched Earth

7. Thru The Eyes Of Ruby

8. Stumbleine

9. X.Y.U.

10. We Only Come Out At Night

11. Beautiful

12. Lily (My One And Only)

13. By Starlight

14. Farewell And Goodnight

Morning Tea (CD3)

1. Tonight, Tonight (Strings Alone mix)

2. Methusela (Sadlands demo)

3. X.Y.U. (Take 11)

4. Zero (Synth mix)

5. Feelium (Sadlands demo)

6. Autumn Nocturne (Sadlands demo)

7. Beautiful (Loop version)

8. Ugly (Sadlands demo)

9. Ascending Guitars (Sadlands demo)

10. By Starlight (Flood rough)

11. Medellia Of The Gray Skies (Take 1)

12. Lover (Arrangement 1 demo)

13. Thru The Eyes Of Ruby (Take 7)

14. In The Arms Of Sleep (Early Live demo)

15. Lily (My One And Only) (Sadlands demo)

16. 1979 (Sadlands demo)

17. Glamey Glamey (Sadlands demo)

18. Meladori Magpie

19. Mellon Collie And The Infinite Sadness (Home Piano version)

20. Galapagos (Instrumental/Sadlands demo)

21. To Forgive (Sadlands demo)

High Tea (CD4)

1. Bullet With Butterfly Wings (Sadlands demo)

2. Set The Ray To Jerry (Vocal Rough)

3. Thirty-Three (Sadlands demo)

4. Cupid De Locke (BT 2012 mix)

5. Porcelina Of The Vast Oceans (Live Studio rough)

6. Jellybelly (Instrumental/Pit mix 3)

7. The Aeroplane Flies High (Turns Left, Looks Right)

8. Jupiter’s Lament (Barbershop version)

9. Bagpipes Drone (Sadlands demo)

10. Tonight, Tonight (Band Version Only, No Strings)

11. Knuckles (Studio outtake)

12. Pennies

13. Here Is No Why (Pumpkinland demo)

14. Blast (Fuzz version)

15. Towers Of Rabble (Live)

16. Rotten Apples

17. Fun Time (Sadlands demo)

18. Thru The Eyes Of Ruby (Acoustic version)

19. Chinoise (Sadlands demo)

20. Speed

Special Tea (CD 5)

1. Mellon Collie And The Infinite Sadness (Nighttime version 1)

2. Galapagos (Sadlands demo)

3. Cherry (BT 2012 mix)

4. Love (Flood rough)

5. New Waver (Sadlands demo)

6. Fuck You (an ode to no one) (Production Master rough)

7. Isolation (BT 2012 mix)

8. Transformer (Early mix)

9. Dizzle (Sadlands demo)

10. Goodnight (Basic Vocal rough)

11. Eye (Soundworks demo)

12. Blank (Sadlands demo)

13. Beautiful (Instrumental-Middle 8)

14. My Blue Heaven (BT 2012 mix)

15. One And Two

16. Zoom (7 ips)

17. Pastichio Medley (Reversed extras)

18. Marquis In Spades (BT 2012 mix)

19. Tales Of A Scorched Earth (Guitar Overdub mix)

20. Tonite Reprise (Version 1)

21. Wishing You Were Real (Home demo)

22. Thru The Eyes Of Ruby (Pit mix 3)

23. Phang (Sadlands demo)

DVD

Live at Brixton academy, London, 5/15/96

1. Tonight, Tonight

2. 1979

3. Zero

4. Here Is No Why

5. Thru the Eyes of Ruby

6. Porcelina of the Vast Oceans

7. Jellybelly

8. Silverfuck

9. Disarm

10. Bullet with Butterfly Wings

Live at Rockpalast, 4/7/96

11. Fuck You (An Ode To No One)

12. Muzzle

13. Cherub Rock

14. X.Y.U.

well hey..!

Release date early December.

Remastered vinyl features the original record spread out over 8 sides (4 LPS) for the first time to ensure the optimum sound

hahahaha holy fuck, no way would i ever listen to this behemoth but that still sounds kinda awesome

that is some enticing looking bonus material. I don't know why they keep plopping b-sides in these, they should just compile them all in the same package and be done with it.
but man, discs 3-5....just... damn. Full length "zoom"! And what on earth is "Pastichio Medley (Reversed extras)"?!

Musically, Mellon Collie solidifies Corgan's position as one of his generation's most ambitious songwriters--no one else in alternative rock's superstar stratum has attempted an album of such length, let alone scope, and it may even match The Wall in its sonic accomplishments. But his lyrics don't fare nearly as well in comparison. It may be too much to ask that Corgan be as poetic as Kurt Cobain or as earnest as Eddie Vedder, though his therapeutic self-examinations could at lest probe as deeply as Trent Reznor's. But while Waters's tale of the rock star Pink only reached the literary level of a comic book, "We don't need no education / We don't need no thought control" seems deeper, more universal, more entertaining--and heck, a lot more inspiring--than, "Living makes me sick / So sick I wish I'd die."

I don't know why they keep plopping b-sides in these, they should just compile them all in the same package and be done with it.

well, they already compiled all the Mellon Collie singles once on the Aeroplane Flies High, plus there was Pisces Iscariot, so in a way i think it makes more sense to put the era appropriate b-sides in with the album reissues instead of collecting the b-sides in yet another distinct package.

Sure but why include any of them at all, so many full length pastichio medley numbers still missing ;_;
Just feels weird to cherry pick em is all

i just want a Pistachio Medley box set, really

otm

It would be nice if they put the iTunes "rarities and bsides" thing out on cd. I think it took care of every bside and compilation track.

http://www.crestfallen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/MCIS_bundel1-300x300.jpg

so the reissue comes out next week

http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/store/mcis-reissue/#!/175307
4LP is $75 ,uag

Mellon Collie? More like Smellin' Collie.

a tote bag! nobody has ever wanted a tote bag! carry around your trader joe's produce in this fashionable tote.

Come now, remember Billy's other big venture lately. Clearly that bag is for...

*drum roll*

Tea-Tote-ellers

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wNJtF1XNe8Y/S13sdXNJipI/AAAAAAAABys/TaEgm_mHkYg/s400/rim-shot-.jpg

disarm me with a pun

body face and soul of you is gone down that deep black steep
aa

despite all my rage, I am still gonna print on that tote

This is by far my favourite Pumpkins album, definitely. I've always been into the excess and sprawl of it.

I bought the Gish and Siamese Dream reissues. I will buy the Pisces Iscariot reissue when I find it for a good price. '1979' is all time, but I've never liked this album. I should revisit it, though.

Weirdly, I've never been as into '1979' as others seem to be, and tend to overlook it a lot of the time in favour of other tracks. This isn't necessarily down to overplay either, because if there was any track off this album that got the hell played out of it here, it was 'Tonight, Tonight' and I still really really love that song. But I guess that's the beauty of this album, there's so much stuff on it that everybody seems to have different favourites.

Smashing Pumpkins are good at the melancholy and quiet stuff. When they rawk, it sucks horribly. Whittle this album down to the quiet stuff and you have a pretty good album. Crap like Jellybelly or whatever needs to die.

you guys have interesting opinions

Polio, do you hate 'Cherub Rock'?

1979 was the only track i ever liked, and i never liked it that much. The cover convinced me I had bought some embarrassing prog, so it was filed away in a box where its stayed.

i seriously can't imagine the life of the person who only likes the quiet smashing pumpkins songs. they probably put salt in their coffee and live in a tent in a tree

Tristessa, Cherub Rock, Frail & Bedazzled > 1979 >>>> all other quiet pumpkins

I have more than a lot of time for the quieter Smashing Pumpkins songs - 'Thirty-Three' is one in particular I find to be absolutely gorgeous, but I could never just have the Pumpkins in quiet mode and nothing else. I fucking love 'Jellybelly', fwiw!

I like 1979, but I actually like Zero better. /shameface

Every song on this album is Classic for me (OK, except Take Me Down). Can't wait to hear all the studio ephemera on the deluxe edition. This reissue is ridiculously expensive though.

rank the singles?

1979
Zero
Tonight, Tonight
Thirty-Three
BWBW

Muzzle should've been and almost was a single. Canned when Jimmy got kicked out, 33 happened instead.

http://991.com/newGallery/Smashing-Pumpkins-Muzzle-74899.jpg

yeah "Muzzle" was a moderate radio hit, definitely wish it had been given a full radio push, some days it is my fav SP song

full single push

Bullet With Butterfly Wings is great imo. The whinier the better.

I even like 'Take Me Down'. Sorry, folks!

33 > tonight > zero > 1979 > bullet

this is also probably my ranking of the individual discs in the aeroplane flies high

'Muzzle' definitely deserved to be a single, in my humble opinion.

If the world is a vampire, the narrator in Neil Young's "Vampire Blues" must be its maker. Unless the world already was a vampire in Neil Young's song. I do not know the True Blood rules for that scenario.

tonight > 1979 > bullet > zero > 33

zero > 1979 > bullet > tonight > 33 (which is still great obv)

1979 > 33 > zero. My preferences are mathematically accurate

I can think of a handful of songs that should've been kicked off of the Mellon Collie tracklist to make room for some of the b-sides instead like Pennies or Set the Ray to Jerry.

muzzle on conan early 97 is oen of my favorite band on tv performances of all time

http://vimeo.com/45282876

AND IN THE EYES OF THE JACKAL I SAY KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-BOOM!

lol @ andy richter, melissa joan hart and james iha chillin on the couch together

compared to other horse races like "is it gonna be Mitt/The Artist? is it? it might not be! ...yep, it is" this stuff is an unpredictable thrill ride

ugh wrong thread sorry

zero > 1979 > bullet > tonight > 33 (which is still great obv)

― crüt, Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:14 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ gets it

"zero" feels so rigid and restrained compared to their other heavy songs

bullet is so much fun. i remember lovin that when i was about 14.

I love 'Zero' for its compactness.

Polio, do you hate 'Cherub Rock'?

It's okay, definitely would be on a compilation I'd make of SP, but in my view, much of SP's rawk repertoire is lazy and forgettable. There are exceptions (ironically, "Quiet" is one of them), but generally, I prefer their ponderous songs like "Mayonnaise", "33", and "1979."

^

Good SP rockers: Love, Bullet, Where Boys Fear, Tales Of A Scorched Earth... But I find a lot of the rockers on Siamese to be pretty drudgeful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggH5-vLlUQ

Fantastic Four!
Don't need no more! (that's ungrammatical)

oops wrong thread

but i do think corgan's work on the fantastic four theme song gives the lie to the idea that the uptempo SP work is somehow drudgeful

haha this is a wrong-thread magnet this morning

I'd cut out Love and replace w/ Cherry, altho that song is Corgan-admittedly underdeveloped and 'prob should've been on the album.'

13-year-old me LOVED X.Y.U.

i like the flangey effects on Love

was that song actually about Courtney Love?

smashing pumpkins tracks poll might be fun at some point, lord knows they have enough songs to make it interesting

Love, X.Y.U., Luna, Silverfuck, and Fuck You are all about Courtney Love

It amazes me how Courtney Love managed to get through so many prominent figures in "alternative rock"... I mean, you're in a successful band, you probably have chicks throwing themselves at you every night, and you choose to go with Courtney Love? Christ, I wouldn't even touch her with the cock of my worst enemy!

yeah some people just have no class huh

I remember a time in my uni days when getting hold of another couple of Pumpkins B-sides was a real thrill--some of their best stuff. Haven't listened to anything they've done from Zwan on, though.

i burned out on this album, maybe i should revisit it now. loved this record, at the time, but always felt that two disc was too much by the Smashing Pumpkins at one time.

I remember a time in my uni days when getting hold of another couple of Pumpkins B-sides was a real thrill--some of their best stuff. Haven't listened to anything they've done from Zwan on, though.

― ornamental cabbage (James Morrison), Thursday, November 29, 2012 2:17 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I've listened to both Zeitgeist and Oceania in full a couple of times each when they came out, but neither of them really stuck with me and I haven't felt like listening to either album since. Bit of a shame really, because I played the hell out of each of the initial run of Pumpkins records... even MACHINA/The Machines Of God which I still feel has some great songs on it, even if it is a bit overdone.

even MACHINA/The Machines Of God which I still feel has some great songs on it, even if it is a bit overdone.

my thoughts exactly (specifically glass and the ghost children, wound, imploding voice, everlasting gaze, with every light, try, i of the mourning), can't wait to hear the resequenced reissue with combined MACHINA 1 & 2 tracklist and possible remix of the whole thing.

oh is that the plan for those? i would be curious at a chance to hear that stuff in a new light

It amazes me how Courtney Love managed to get through so many prominent figures in "alternative rock"... I mean, you're in a successful band, you probably have chicks throwing themselves at you every night, and you choose to go with Courtney Love? Christ, I wouldn't even touch her with the cock of my worst enemy!

yeah those poor defenseless guys at the mercy of Courtney Love, putting bunnies in microwaves.

xpost:

Is Corgan actually going through with that? I mean, I've heard talk about him wanting to revisit the project and 'do it properly', but do you think that'll actually happen? I hope so, I'd be very interested in hearing what would come out of it...

The MACHINA/The Machines Of God tracks you've listed are mostly the ones I'm particularly fond of - especially 'Wound', 'With Every Light' and 'Glass And The Ghost Children'. I'd definitely add 'Stand Inside Your Love' and 'Age Of Innocence' to the list too.

The three on there that I'm the coldest on would have to be 'Heavy Metal Machine' (I understand it's meant to be colossally heavy, but I just don't think it's much of a song), 'The Crying Tree Of Mercury' (meh), and 'Blue Skies Bring Tears'.

this is the only place i've seen muzzle love. song rules

this is the only place i've seen muzzle love. song rules

― fauxmarc, Thursday, November 29, 2012 2:55 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Really? I've always found it to be one of the more favoured non-single tracks from Mellon Collie whenever the album has been discussed elsewhere?

i always think that but then there are so many lists of the best SP songs where it's not even mentioned and i'm like what the hell

how do we feel about "Bodies"? That's one that'll just jump in my head.

(just the chorus; I don't remember the rest)

Stepping back a bit:

Today I listened to an Arising! tour bootleg which previewed a lot of scattered Machina tracks from both albums, reminding me why I liked that final active year of the actual band. It just felt like a good extended conclusion, pureeing their entire past and going out with a slew of new songs that just kept coming from all over the place, in combination with the various bootlegs Billy more or less officially sanctioned via net distribution. A lot of the best songs seemed very elegiac, a knowing look back and wrap up, and I still wish D'arcy had been able to hang around that one year just for the full lineup to see it all out. Probably one big reason why the 'reunion' pissed me off when it happened!

"Bodies" is pretty cool

Yeah, I agree Ned - in hindsight when the band finished the first time around it would have ended on a pretty much near-perfect note. I feel it was probably the right time for them to do so, and I thought 'Untitled' (with its look back to a more Siamese Dream-like sound) was a great song to go out with. Also agree about the whole D'arcy thing, it would have been nice for them to finish up with the original four.

A friend of mine saw them on the Sacred And Profane tour and had nothing but good words to say about the gig, and if I recall, he wasn't particularly fond of MACHINA/The Machines Of God, so they were clearly still kicking all kinds of ass live!

"Bodies" is pretty cool

― some dude, Thursday, November 29, 2012 3:41 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Agreed - one of my favourite songs on the second CD!

any love for Tales of a Scorched Earth? the most angsty and tortured vocal of the entire Pumpkins oeuvre!

also, 1979 into Tales of a Scorched Earth has got to be one of the most jarring transitions ever on a major rock record

'Tales Of A Scorched Earth' was the last-minute inclusion on Mellon Collie, wasn't it? Yeah, I like how overloaded and furious that one sounds!

http://bystarlight.org/photoarchive/albums/Group/mcis%20era/groupmcis16.jpg

I saw them on one of their last shows before the split and I was less than impressed, but I remember it as a sound issue - Billy's guitar sounded buzzsaw-thin for some reason.

Hey, I had no idea the Rumpies made a new album this year. Any good? I still haven't listened to Machina!

While I don’t mind some of the music they put out towards the end my feelings about that period of the Pumpkins before they split are severely embittered by a gig I saw at the Glasgow SECC in 2000 which probably ranks amongst the worst performances I’ve seen by any band. From what I remember the tour was sold to fans as a ‘final farewell’ and as such expectations were high that we would be treated to some of the hits. What we got instead was Billy dressed in a frock ranting unintelligibly at the audience for extended periods, a set list made up primarily of Machina II tracks and, when they finally did play something recognisable, a slowed down version of Bullet with Butterfly Wings and a sped up take on Today.

Brutal experience that really tainted my opinion on the band. The gig itself is the stuff of legend on account of how bad it was. Throughout the years I’ve met several others who were there that night and they’ve all felt the same.

Anyway, regardless of that I’m picking this up on vinyl. I’ve been after a copy for years but it’s been selling for stupid money. Managed to snag the reissue from Amazon.ca for £26 delivered.

Managed to snag the reissue from Amazon.ca for £26 delivered.

Wait, what? I'm not seeing that on there!

yeah, amazon.ca fucked up for a while and was offering the boxset for 26 bux but they fixed it a week or so ago, but all orders placed under that price are valid because of their store policy. altho iirc a lot of people on netphoria got their orders cancelled and had to get em again under the regular, insane price

also, does anyone have the bonus discs in non-watermarked form and is willing to share?

I've been listening to this since the thread revive, and I've changed my mind. I was ten years old when the Smashing pumpkins were huge, and my first exposure came from my older brother's cd collection. He had Gish and Siamese Dream, so I suppose I had sentimental reasons for favoring those two so heavily over Mellon Collie. I also had a friend in high school that would make Jack Black-esque hand gestures and faces to "Here Is No Why" in his car. That always bugged the hell out of me.

hahaha weird, one of my fave songs!

here is no why might have the best sp solo

The "Here is No Why" solo is very melodic. Corgan's solos on Gish are amazing, though they unravel into rapid fire muscle memory at times. The first part of the solo in "Bury Me" is great, but the part after the 3000 bpm picking of the same note sounds more like a fretting exercise than a contribution to a song. The "Tristessa" solo has an interesting mixture of 80s guitar virtuoso and melodic Corgan guitar solos. He does many interesting things while keeping it melodic. It's possibly my favorite.

Okay so here's one for everyone -- who here tuned into the radio broadcast of the album release show in Chicago, with Cheap Trick (who opened) joining them on the encore to do three of their songs?

I also remember them or something blowing out the power about five seconds into "Zero" so they had to pause the show and say something to the audience and/or the listeners about the glitch. I think they played the studio version of "By Starlight" as a stopgap on the broadcast.

'Here Is No Why' is definitely a gem - like 'Muzzle' I definitely feel that could have been a single too. The solo on 'Soma' from Siamese Dream is probably my favourite solo of his overall.

who here tuned into the radio broadcast of the album release show in Chicago

KROQ simulcast it, didn't they? I listened to it.

http://archive.org/details/tsp1995-10-23.flac16

ha, listening now to "4. (power failure) 7:51"

"people will remember it as like a mythic show, even though we didn't play"

and she was right

Hahah. I should go back and relisten.

The Cheap Trick choices were inspired too -- "Baby Loves to Rock," "If You Want My Love" and "Auf Wiedersehn."

Giving MACHINA/The Machines Of God right now. 'Glass And The Ghost Children' is a masterpiece, isn't it? Yes, it is! Some incredibly Jimmy Chamberlin drumming in the first part... and I love that weird section that links the two parts together.

*incredibly good

man waiting for this to leak suuuuhckxs

I feel like there's a Louis C.K. bit to be written about that

Omfg found the bonus discs dl'ing now will report back shortly

btw in case you missed it, here's what's on offer:

MORNING TEA
1. "Tonight, Tonight (Strings Alone mix)"
2. "Methusela (Sadlands demo)"
3. "X.Y.U. (Take 11)"
4. "Zero (Synth mix)"
5. "Feelium (Sadlands demo)"
6. "Autumn Nocturne (Sadlands demo)"
7. "Beautiful (Loop version)"
8. "Ugly (Sadlands demo)"
9. "Ascending Guitars (Sadlands demo)"
10. "By Starlight (Flood rough)"
11. "Medellia of the Gray Skies (Take 1)"
12. "Lover (Arrangement 1 demo)"
13. "Thru the Eyes of Ruby (Take 7)"
14. "In the Arms of Sleep (Early Live demo)"
15. "Lily (My One and Only) (Sadlands demo)"
16. "1979 (Sadlands demo)"
17. "Glamey Glamey (Sadlands demo)"
18. "Meladori Magpie"
19. "Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness (Home Piano version)"
20. "Galapagos (Instrumental/Sadlands demo)"
21. "To Forgive (Sadlands demo)"

HIGH TEA
1. "Bullet with Butterfly Wings (Sadlands demo)"
2. "Set the Ray to Jerry (vocal rough)"
3. "Thirty-Three (Sadlands demo)"
4. "Cupid de Locke (BT 2012 mix)"
5. "Porcelina of the Vast Oceans (Live Studio rough)"
6. "Jellybelly (Instrumental/Pit mix 3)"
7. "The Aeroplane Flies High (Turns Left, Looks Right)"
8. "Jupiter’s Lament (Barbershop version)"
9. "Bagpipes Drone (Sadlands demo)"
10. "Tonight, Tonight (Band Version Only, No Strings)"
11. "Knuckles (Studio outtake)"
12. "Pennies"
13. "Here Is No Why (Pumpkinland demo)"
14. "Blast (Fuzz version)"
15. "Towers of Rabble (Live)"
16. "Rotten Apples"
17. "Fun Time (Sadlands demo)"
18. "Thru the Eyes of Ruby (Acoustic version)"
19. "Chinoise (Sadlands demo)"
20. "Speed"

SPECIAL TEA
1. "Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness (Nighttime version 1)"
2. "Galapagos (Sadlands demo)"
3. "Cherry (BT 2012 mix)"
4. "Love (Flood rough)"
5. "New Waver (Sadlands demo)"
6. "Fuck You (an ode to no one) (Production Master rough)"
7. "Isolation (BT 2012 mix)"
8. "Transformer (Early mix)"
9. "Dizzle (Sadlands demo)"
10. "Goodnight (Basic Vocal rough)"
11. "Eye (Soundworks demo)"
12. "Blank (Sadlands demo)"
13. "Beautiful (Instrumental-Middle 8)"
14. "My Blue Heaven (BT 2012 mix)"
15. "One and Two"
16. "Zoom (7 ips)"
17. "Pastichio Medley (Reversed extras)"
18. "Marquis in Spades (BT 2012 mix)"
19. "Tales of a Scorched Earth (Guitar Overdub mix)"
20. "Tonite Reprise (Version 1)"
21. "Wishing You Were Real (Home demo)"
22. "Thru the Eyes of Ruby (Pit mix 3)"
23. "Phang (Sadlands demo)"

This was the first album I ever bought that wasn't a Now! compilation. Rocking from an early age

That's a lot of tea, innit?

This thing is so ridiculous and wonderful:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/374489_10151316598296136_419070252_n.jpg

wow!!

Four decoupage sheets in total in a lovely envelope, the CD/DVD holder as noted, reproduction of the lyric booklet, full annotation booklet etc with photos and a slew of early art design concepts, the whole kept in that case in the upper right, which really looks lovely. Think I'll drown in the sound of this all week.

That indeed looks awesome! This album was all about excess and sprawl, and now it's got the packaging to match!

Need to pull the trigger and order that damn thing.

i would love a mix of just the rarities, WOW

again, i will say it, and loud: I WANT MY PISTACHIO MEDLEY BOX SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

yeah only 7 pistachio songs out of the 70-something pieces, none of my favorites either

And into the listen. Damn, it might just actually sound better, this remaster!

agreed, it cuts more and it's a little less muddy on the low end. all the heavy tracks sound glorious.

That box sort-of reminds me of the Andy Partridge "Fuzzy Warbles" total-box-set..

It has stamp-sheets, an envelope that says it contains 'hinges' but in fact it has another CD..

And 9 other CDs.

And a 'best-of' in a envelope..

And a book...

Listened to the first bonus disc yesterday, on the rest today. Loving all this. It'll never fully replace all the bootlegs because it's more like a wide sampling of so many different tracks as opposed to an every-last-track thing but it's just great hearing so many of these songs all the more cleanly now.

Also "Set the Ray to Jerry" remains one of the best things they ever, ever did.

Okay this 'barbershop' version of "Jupiter's Lament" is lovely.

favorites so far - Dizzle (didn't stand out to me on the gravity demos, but this home demo is just gorgeous), the 1979 demo (the one that billy made the afternoon after flood told him the song wasn't ready for the album and got to change his mind), Phang, Knuckles, Ruby take 7, Jellybelly pit mix, Bagpipes drone, Cherry remix, Wishing You Were Real, My Blue Heaven remix, Isolation cover, Autumn Nocturne.....so many great nuggets on here!

The first line of "Stumbleine" sounds like "Subterranean Homesick Blues." Ha!

ha! Johnny's in the basement, mixin' up the loose teeth....

could actually be a cool Dylanesque way of expressing that the guy was shooting dice down there actually

Ordered this last night, can't wait to get it.

Spazz can you make me a copy

I'm hoping Santa Claus drops the vinyl set in my stocking this christmas

i dug out mellon collie last night. it's a rare example of a double album with very very few bad moments on it.

yup, the only replacements i would make are "The Boy" instead of "Love," and "Meladori Magpie," "Jupiter's Lament," or "My Blue Heaven" instead of "Take Me Down."

i like both those songs. i always loved the guitar sound on Love especially. And Take Me Down is slight, but nice and it has Iha singing on it.

billy could've kept the band together by promising iha 2 songs no questions asked on all future albums. then he'd be able to say he gave him a shot, and that iha wasn't really a "repressed talent" like he thought and people would stop jumping to the conclusion that billy was an asshole for not putting any shite songs on his records.

xp Is it confirmed that all the Pistachio Medley bits were pulled from full-length songs?

i don't think the seeds of resentment against Billy from fans or bandmates really has much at all to do w/ whether he let other people write SP songs (xp)

-not all the pastichio medley bits are full songs, many are likely culled from longer jams
-most of james' resentment was a result of being put down by billy continually

if he was trying to get his songs on the albums all the time maybe he deserved to be put down?

xxp But it is interesting how much of the popular disdain for Smashing Pumpkins has to with Billy Corgan as a person, and the dysfunctionality inherent in the Smashing Pumpkins narrative. There's really nothing sexy about their story at all. We have a fairly unattractive egomaniac with a penchant for publicly berating his enemies, two people who supposedly couldn't play their instruments very well, a junkie drummer. There's really not a good story in there, and there are certainly no heroes-- unsung or otherwise; it's all ugly.

poliopolice...otm?

oh come on, i can be right some of the time

apparently!

Obviously, it's hard to have the right opinions on subjective things 100% of the time.

I can't understand how the dysfunctional relationships between band members, or really any of what you cite beyond "Billy Corgan as a person," could breed popular disdain. "Man, Billy had to play D'Arcy's bass lines? She's just like Craig at the office. I hate Craig. I hate this band now."

xp I don't agree, I find their story to be very romantic and almost regal. abused, misunderstood boy escapes the suburbs to make transcendent, spiritual, and extraordinarily evocative rock music thru unwavering dedication, gumption, force of will, and ballsiness. he finds three bandmates who's sensibilities add up to something greater than billy alone could ever be, the friction and edginess of those personalities together made the band what it was. chamberlin was a hard partier but he was and still is one of the best rock drummers in the world. watch any live show from 92-96 and tell me james and d'arcy don't hold their own even against billy's guitar histrionics. so they come close to breaking up after SD - they keep it together long enough to make what amounts to a final statement and epitaph, Mellon Collie. it's their biggest hit yet, and eight months into a huge worldwide arena tour, they implode, jimmy's fired, touring keyboardist dies, they keep on but the last four years of the band, 96-2000, are a sustained death march into oblivion as billy becomes totally disenchanted by being in a fractured, non-existent band. they went from being a dysfunctional family to not communicating as anything but business partners. Adore and Machina are funereal, elegies to billy's mom, the band, and the sadness of hope lost and what almost was. it's a beautiful story to me from beginning to end.

xxp and i'm not saying i agree that billy was wrong to leave james' songs off the records, but it was certainly a cause of resentment from james

maybe it's his voice then

People hates Corgan because he was pretty arrogant and outspoken about shit. After the band's popularity started to wane, he seemed to become ... Even more curmudeonly.

That interview he did with Q Magazine circa MACHINA/The Machines Of God which resulted in Sharon Osbourne calling Billy "a baldy twat in a dress" springs to mind.

Typed up here:

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=6225

interviewer also sounds a bit dickish - "nice skirt" is not a very warm introduction

interviewer just asked a bunch of celebrity culture bullshit, when clearly Billy wanted to talk about the music. Interviewer didn't get the hint.

agreed. you gotta talk some astrology with billy before you sprinkle in the celebrity stuff.

My MCIS box showed up in today's mail, this thing is gorgeous.

apparently the mastering job on the vinyl reissue is shoddy, particularly on 'zero.' I do not know this from my own experience, however.

i have it, zero is a tad overcooked but otherwise the set sounds phenomenal

Brutal experience that really tainted my opinion on the band. The gig itself is the stuff of legend on account of how bad it was. Throughout the years I’ve met several others who were there that night and they’ve all felt the same.

Had forgotten the awfulness of this gig. The encore was a a noise-fest painful in its total shiteness.

this is where someone says we're now as far from "1979" as "1979" was from 1979.

Who is the “BT” credited on a few of the outtakes and rarities, e.g. Cherry (BT 2012 mix)? Google hasn’t been helpful.

Billy Torgan. No, it's Bjorn Thorsrud, who was an engineer they worked with a bunch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjorn_Thorsrud

I wish I could afford this reissue.

Bjorn Thorsgud?

despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a
CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

fuiud

question: is this album Billy C's interpretation of the "the heart music, Echo and the Bunnymen," or is it a two-disc concept album composed in furious response to Kim Thayil? Or should we assume the latter is the "Iscariot" in Pisces Iscariot?

Adore is the Echo & the Bunnymen album obv.

Yeah, that's what's funny - that so clearly lives up to that mission, but it's delayed by one album, as if Billy suddenly had 40+ tracks of non-heart-music that he had to get off his chest.

Mellon Collie is a good album and some of the band's finest moments are on there, but like with every long album there can be some filler in places.

I much prefer Siamese Dream, which is one of my favourite albums of all time. Hell, I think I prefer Gish to Mellon Collie.

Still, Bullet With Butterfly Wings, Tonight Tonight, 1979, Jellybelly, Zero, XYU, Here Is No Why, Thru The Eyes Of Ruby, Where Boys Fear To Tread, Cupid De Locke and Love are wonderful.

Oh, and We Only Come Out At Night.

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1185689_10151895694472328_1380969732_n.jpg

<3

“You are trying to use your intuition to guide you through this interview but, if I may say, it’s not guiding you very well. You’re not listening to what I’m saying. You are trying to look into my eyes to see my soul.” He sighs. “Well let me tell you, you won’t find it.”

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=6225

Yeah this interview is hilarious.

“Go ahead and ask me any thing you want,” he says, “but you won’t get it. I know what you’re after: the story behind the story. Which is a shame. Everyone has lost sight of the real story, which is the music itself. It’s like a train - music is the engine, but other people appear more interested in the other carriages.”

LOL

NEW MELLON COLLIE C-SIDE!! WOW!!! FUCK. full length "In the Arms of Sheep," featured for like 3 seconds in the pastichio medley
could there be more leaks???????sooon??????

https://vimeo.com/98218010

good song, has melody that ended up in "The Last Song."

Can't believe nearly eight years have gone by since I started this thread. Presumably the influence on the young bands of today has to be happening by now, right? Right?

i don't know about artists, but this album has influenced me to not listen to people who say that the smashing pumpkins aren't a good band. a narrow influence, to be sure, but still.

absolutely. mcis never gets old, and it's easily the best and most accomplished thing they did. the white album of the 90s

I for one love this album... as said upthread many years ago, one of the few double albums to justify its length. There's only like 2 or 3 clunkers on each disc; still a solid 20 or so songs.

I especially love the lullaby-esque denouement of the final side... We Only Come Out at Night, Beautiful, Lily, By Starlight, Farewell & Goodnight (intentionally or not, always reminds me of "Good Night" on the White Album).

always happy to be reminded that i will likely never hear this band again if i make wise choices. it's similar to remembering that i have some control over the events that might lead to me wanting or needing to induce vomiting.

btw they will pretty obviously become the Kansas or Styx of future Classic Rock, which is probably exactly what Billy Corgan always wanted.

did they ever cover "Take It On The Run" live?

btw they will pretty obviously become the Kansas or Styx of future Classic Rock, which is probably exactly what Billy Corgan always wanted.

more like Boston or Queen imo. Kansas and Styx is like....silverchair or something

RHCP is Queen, Lemonheads are Boston

I almost threw Boston in there. I feel like the Pumpkins' proggy "art" aspirations take them a little bit towards Styx territory, but clearly Billy had truck with Scholz's guitar landscapes and Delp's yearning dreaminess.

RHCP is Lynyrd Skynyrd but only because I really hesitate to make them the Eagles. Reliable good times, delivered on the road as needed - but not to the exclusion of heartfelt sensitive ballads.

really though i'm pretty sure billy was big fans of boston queen kansas AND styx!

which one the pumpkins best correlate with 90s wise hmmmmm idk

which one the pumpkins best correlate with 90s wise hmmmmm idk

ELO

Led Zep = Pearl Jam
Stones = RHCP
Beatles = Nirvana
Springsteen = Green Day
Pumpkins = Eagles

in terms of size/number of hits, not drawing any deep parallels or anything

the smashing pumpkins are not the eagles. fleetwood mac

i think SP is more like Led Zeppelin in terms of deep parallels.

yes

Cant hack Corgan but one of my favorite things about this band is the guitar tones....in terms of influence that has to be a 'thing'

Still a fantastic (and in light of their earlier catalogue) underrated album. Almost certainly my favourite - just the right balance of pomp and rawk. OK Computer two years before the fact and twice as long.

I especially love the lullaby-esque denouement of the final side... We Only Come Out at Night, Beautiful, Lily, By Starlight, Farewell & Goodnight (intentionally or not, always reminds me of "Good Night" on the White Album).

― LimbsKing, Monday, July 7, 2014 10:51 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah this is one of my favourite stretches of the record.

20 years ago today: the first MCIS pajama show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nccgtJ8DaY

Tonight, Tonight
In the Arms of Sleep*
Cupid de Locke
Thirty-three
Today
Lily (My One and Only)
Take Me Down
Beautiful
Rocket
Galapagos
========
Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness (over PA)
Where Boys Fear to Tread
Zero
Fuck You
To Forgive
Bullet with Butterfly Wings
Thru the Eyes of Ruby
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans
Jellybelly
1979*
Disarm
X.Y.U. (Intro cut on master)
=========
We Only Come Out at Night*
Muzzle
=========
Geek U.S.A.
Cherub Rock

* - First Time Played

http://s3.amazonaws.com/production.mediajoint.prx.org/public/piece_images/421900/mcis3.jpg

Listening to this back to back for the first time in eternity tonight. And it still holds up, even after twenty years, which is baffling in itself. This album was p much the bane of my existence when I was 16/17 years old. Very formative.

Never mind Corgan having gone completely bonkers and insane after Adore, this is still the shit. Wondering if it has the status today that it really should have. Or did this sublime album kill the double concept rock album for good? No idea, but if this was the last, it was a helluva last pompous double rock album. Unique.

has the best flow of any double i've ever heard. 2 hours go by quick. i've burnt this album out so hard, these days i'll play XYU or Fuck You over anything else.

yeah we know, billy

Hard to wrap my head around this thread being as distant from the present as it was from me getting the album for Christmas. Aside from your basic "where did the time go?" feelings, it also seems like nothing whatsoever has changed in terms of the reputations of either the band, the album, or Billy Pumpkin himself. I should give it one of my infrequent full listens and see if it sounds any different to me.

As I recall, my mom bought this for me to cheer me up after my first orthodontic appointment. So yeah, it's very much connected with teenage misery for me.

Nice gift! That guitar solo on Zero reminds me of a dentist drill

"... but remember what I said about flossing, and no more chewing those charcoal teeth!"

Dr. Corgan: "I'll pull your crooked teeth. You'll be perfect just like me."

"Okay... now rinse... okay. Shake out those loose teeth and we'll take a look at that bumblebee mouth."

and in the eyes of the jackal i say you may need to have your wisdom teeth removed soon

And she gnaws, and she gnaws, and she gnaws

All I think when I listen to it now is, "Wow, Courtney Love really did a number on you, didn't she Billy?"

Seriously, I think she broke him.

On the original vinyl release, all the songs about Courtney are on the same side (Midnight):

Where Boys Fear to Tread
Zero
Fuck You
Love
XYU

lmao get wrecked bill

just wanted to second brad from another pumpkins thread that "Galapagos" is a perfect song and I've never encountered any other like it, so emotionally specific yet elusive

maybe my favorite jimmy drum track other than “porcelain” also. so subtle and tasteful and extremely complicated

er. “porcelina”*

porcelina, another perfect song

There's many songs on which Jimmy's playing blows me away - he's a huge reason I took to this band in the first place. It's hard to pick just one. 'Galapagos' or 'Porcelina...' wouldn't be the first to spring to mind, though.

Jellybelly, too. that's the one that consistently blows me away, really everyone's playing on it, the most 'pumpkins as paramilitary assault group' of all the heavy songs on MCIS. can't find the interview, can't remember if it was 90s or recent, but Jimmy said that he only got the drum part right once on Jellybelly, and that's the take that's on the record.

the choruses in porcelina are crazy drum-wise. i guess a favorite of mine that’s a more obvious exhibit of jimmy’s abilities is “geek usa”

'Jellybelly' absolutely cooks! It's easy to paint Jimmy as a particular type of drummer, but really he uses a wide range of approaches throughout the record.

He would have been great on Adore, I think.

but adore would’ve been a totally different record

I'm not so sure, since portions of Mellon Collie were near enough pointing the way to Adore - songs like 'Stumbleine' pointed the way to 'To Sheila', 'In the Arms of Sleep' to 'Once Upon a Time', '1979' to the more metronomic stuff such as 'Ava Adore' and 'Pug'... Jimmy could be very light and jazzy, which would have suited the tracks. In the case of 'To Sheila', he wouldn't have needed to play at all.

ok but... most of the reason that record was written the way it was is bc of what happened with jimmy and also billy’s mom dying. it would’ve been different had either of those things not happened. also i think the end of mellon collie might be more tranquil than the rest of the record but it doesn’t really sound like adore at all

i also don’t think 1979 -> ava adore is a straight line

enjoy your ideas though

Doesn't make sense to think about 'Adore' with Jimmy, precisely for the reasons Brad mentions.

i'm listening to Galapogos for the first time in years now and you're right. It sounds as good as ever. Better, even

before Jimmy was fired they had already planned to make a drastic change for the fourth record. this interview is from December 1995, at 14:50 Billy talks about how they've considered "just making records," doing very minimal touring, press, etc. Around this time he also said that songs like "1979" (and later on, "Eye") pointed the way to the future of the band. Of course that wasn't the case because as Brad said, you can't imagine Adore without Jimmy OD'ing, or Billy's mom dying, or him getting a divorce, or the increasingly fractured and acrimonious relationship between Billy & James/D'arcy.

I think one of the more overlooked and immensely sad aspects of Billy's personality is that he's pathologically incapable of living in the present. again, this interview was recorded two months after Mellon Collie was released, they're one of the biggest bands in the world, they've won, they climbed whatever mountain they thought might be insurmountable before Siamese Dream. The record debuted at #1, and as Billy said in that Joe Rogan interview, when his manager gave him the news, Billy replied earnestly, "Is there a position higher?" All of the press leading up to the release of Mellon Collie is not triumphant at all: it's dour and sad and pessimistic and full of doom. Besides the whole "Rock is Dead" thing he'd been going on about since 1990, he recognized how precarious and volatile the band's relationship was and how it could all explode at any moment, which it did. I honestly find that really relatable unfortunately, being unable to enjoy the present because of some guaranteed miserable future. as unpleasant it is to be around and to sit through if you're not in the mood, it rings true for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NhTBjk58mw

^^^ thanks for clarifying flappy, i didn’t know all of those details

I think the death of Billy's mother was a big driving force behind the record - but yes, they were planning on making a different record prior to the Jimmy situation and that's precisely what they did except without him. They were going to further explore some of the "newer" ideas that cropped up on Mellon Collie anyway, and Jimmy wouldn't have sounded out of place on that material.

Adore really isn't the drastic U-turn you lot are making it out to be - you can hear it coming a mile away if you're remotely familiar with what came before it.

i agree sonically, but emotionally Adore is on another planet than 1979, Eye, TEITBITE, We Only Come Out At Night, and Lily. death and loss and grief inform every second of that record. it's not the drum machines and acoustic songs and electronics that separate Adore, it's the really dour vibe of the whole thing. it's a sustained sadness, which is stranger considering how diverse the record actually is musically. yet for me it's as monochromatic as Siamese Dream. as far as the the public & critical reception is concerned in '98, the drastic u-turn of Adore is that there are no rock songs on it. to many people (millions probably), the smashing pumpkins = RAWK, therefore Adore = bomb.

also more trivia- most of the record was written & recorded after all that stuff happened, "Tear" was written for Lost Highway (Lynch didn't like it so Billy gave him "Eye" instead) in the summer of '96), and the guitar break in "For Martha" was demoed during MCIS writing sessions in the fall of '94. they teased a lot of the songs and i think played Ava Adore and

Adore really isn't the drastic U-turn you lot are making it out to be - you can hear it coming a mile away if you're remotely familiar with what came before it.

― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Friday, November 24, 2017 12:02 AM (nine hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

who are you talking to, your friends who didn’t like it

jimmy missing as a rhythmic engine in the songs means i think the songwriting is distinctly different than it would’ve been had he been there imo

they were going to make a different record anyway but that was billy’s plan for literally every sp album

it's pretty common to run into people who argue with imaginary people in their head and then map the arguments of those imaginary people onto people they meet in real life. i can't count the number of times i've been in what started as an actual conversation, but gradually morphed into the other person yelling at an imaginary person but actually just staring and yelling at me in real life, as if i held the opinions of the imaginary person.

Opening lines to Billy’s new autobiography there. (Title: “Why Am I So Hated?”)

who are you talking to

It's pretty damn clear.

jimmy missing as a rhythmic engine in the songs means i think the songwriting is distinctly different than it would’ve been had he been there imo

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, November 24, 2017 4:54 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I disagree, I think the real difference was Billy losing his mother, which - it goes without saying - is the prime reason why Adore has this vibe which, as flappy bird has said, revolves around loss and death. These songs more or less would have been written whether or not Jimmy was in the band, really. If Jimmy had remained in the band then he would have handled the material sensitively - he was, after all, capable of more than the 'Geek USA' or 'Silverfuck' style of drumming.

idk, this is obviously projection (as is thinking that the songs would’ve been the same had jimmy been there) but i think billy writing with the expectation he’ll be playing off of jimmy is probably different from billy writing to the total absence of that expectation

September 1998:

THIS IS YOUR FIRST RECORD WITHOUT DRUMMER JIMMY CHAMBERLIN. HOW DID THAT INFLUENCE THE SOUND?
BILLY: We made the decision to change the approach on this record before we put out *Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness.* We saw "1979" as a real jumping-off point for what the next record might sound like. But would the shift had been so radical if Jimmy had stayed in the band? I don't think so.

http://www.starla.org/articles/request.htm

oh cool i’m not projecting

Yeah, he's implying that Jimmy getting kicked out enabled them to broaden their range, but I'm not convinced that that's the case, and I'm not convinced it was that radical a shift. This is all before we get to the fact that it's Billy Corgan talking, and he's full of shit pretty much most of the time.

oh ok

ok if you don't believe the guy that made Adore idk what to tell you

I generally take anything Billy Corgan says with a pinch of salt, as does any sensible person.

April 1998:

Addicted To Noise: Basically, you pretty much reinvented the Pumpkins sound with your new album, Adore. Tell me about that.

Billy Corgan: (laughs) Well.

D'Arcy Wretzky: Take a deep breath.

James Iha: Take out one drummer. Take out the guitars.

Wretzky: Get another drummer.

Corgan: That's it. Add some keyboards. Play some lame- ass tunes.

Wretzky: (laughs)

ATN: What are some of the things that you went through between the completion of Mellon Collie and recording this album that you feel had a strong impact on the songs and the sound of the album?

Corgan: Well, Jimmy's departure is the biggest, #1 thing. And then I would say just the general decision to let go of the rock sound, even before Jimmy Chamberlin left the band. So I would say those are the two major things. As far as things that went on in our lives, I think James summed it up a little bit. There's a certain kind of mental pounding that goes on when you're playing arena rock and loud music. There's kind of an almost innate desire to want to move to the other end of the spectrum just to achieve a new feeling. I think we naturally gravitated toward something a little quieter and something a little more textured. Now that we've done that, we're ready to rock again.

(laughter)

Corgan: Which of course can be amazing, because if this album does really well, then everyone will question our return to rock. (laughs)

Iha: I love it! 'Why are you rocking when you made such a nice last record?'

Wretzky: 'But you said rock is dead!' Iha: Yeah. 'Why are you going back to rock?'

Corgan: Ooh la la.

Iha: Why don't we do the interview for the next album? Right now!.

http://www.starla.org/articles/growup.htm

bless D'Arcy and James

i can't count the number of times i've been in what started as an actual conversation, but gradually morphed into the other person yelling at an imaginary person but actually just staring and yelling at me in real life, as if i held the opinions of the imaginary person.

― Karl Malone, Friday, November 24, 2017 9:34 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my dad does this to me all the time, it's funny because he always punctuates it with this bug eyed stare at the end like "REALLY, I'M NOT KIDDING", as if he's not totally preaching to the choir

I love Tonight Tonight but that bald chap who appears to be a complete crank (in a bad way) has the worst 'singing' voice this side of Kelly Jones.

"Well, Jimmy's departure is the biggest, #1 thing. And then I would say just the general decision to let go of the rock sound, even before Jimmy Chamberlin left the band."

So Jimmy's departure wasn't the #1 thing, then - they already had a direction in mind.

:/

my all time favorite james interview moment, from this july 99 web chat:

<g60girl> what kind of cars do you guys drive?
<James> I have a Volvo.
<lunatriste> Whats the new album going to be called?
<James> I have a Volvo.

lmao love james and d’arcy

jimmy is also pretty hilarious in the zwan doc

Have any of you ever seen Vieuphoria?

vieuphoria rules

Honestly, the Frogs interlude is my favorite part

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsL-5YjD9Pw

pulseczar rules
french movie theme rules

vieuphoria kicked off a series of events that ended with me singing "Grandma in the corner with a penis in her hand going no no no no no" in my head on a fairly regular basis for several years

i love vieuphoria though parts of it are ponderous

though when i was a kid the dvd release of vieuphoria was like a major event in my life, a real holy grail moment lol

1994 amirite

(this vhs tape was part of my Christmas present that year, I think?)

i never owned it but my friend had the VHS in high school and we'd watch it all the time after school

the thing i remember watching that really got me hooked was a "videography" show on MTV where billy/james/d'arcy ran through and talked about all the videos up through melon collie.

this Apathy Video channel keeps delivering. after a 2 week break, they're back with some more gold. afaik the full tape of this show has never circulated, and the quality is much better than the only clip of it I've ever seen (Fuck You).

this show has always confounded me. they get a 40 minute set at a benefit show, play 3 singles in a row, then Fuck You... then a 20 minute Silverfuck. the swagger and gall of the Pumpkins at their peak right before the OD in New York is just stunning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u589RhkuJN0

As the original poster says, the reason it gets put down is because of Corgan's unwillingness to make an album for adults. If I had been 25 when this came out I'd probably have hated it - the bawling vocal, the post-grunge/proto-emo "you don't understand me OR MY MUSIC" white middle class ethic; the Queen/Prog-inspired pomp and circumstance. It's enough to make a man sick.

But to a 15 year old kid, this tastes like candy-apples. It is a decade old album, and in the same way that at the time we laughed at the Human League, the Smiths and Big Daddy Kane, so to do we about this in 2006. This is why it'll be critically re-evaluated in another ten years and top many a best-of list.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:54 AM (eleven years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dog Latin was wrong - this album has never went away. It's been in "best albums you must hear before you croak" type of lists since ever.

flappy thanks for that video. hadn't heard this since i was there
27:15>29:50 wowowow

ah awesome! that must've been a crazy show, lineup was stacked

i seriously can't imagine the life of the person who only likes the quiet smashing pumpkins songs. they probably put salt in their coffee and live in a tent in a tree

― congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:52 AM bookmarkflaglink

i can play "here is no why" on the drums now :D

of course, next to "1979" that is probably the simplest non-synthetic drum part on this record

Tribute cover version of the full album next

the hi-hat accents on "1979" seem like they'd be tricky to pull off!

oh i guess it's the drum machine that does those:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuOFL_XU7jc

^^

and even then, hard to pull off with the same feel (drum-machine assist in the original I guess)

according to leading randos, Chamberlain didn't bother trying to do the hi-hat accents live, either

xp

i tried to drum along to "geek usa" yesterday too and it was hilarious. chamberlin is a tank

Nah JC is playing along with the drum machine on 1979, I can't listen to confirm but iirc the hi hat accent only comes in after the first stanza?

Here is No Why is so much fun to play, Brad

these are things i already implicitly knew but there's an extra reality to it when i'm trying to make my idiot arms and legs do anything he does, especially at that speed

i can play "rhinoceros" too, primarily because it's slow. it's also a blast xp

what about To Forgive? that's a great drum part

iirc the hi hat accent only comes in after the first stanza

yep

SP has like 10000000 great drum parts

hearing what JC can do with just a lil trap kit in the first sets of the pajama shows is so valuable. I think they played To Forgive in that set? or no, they alternated.

what about To Forgive? that's a great drum part

― flappy bird, Wednesday, July 15, 2020 10:16 AM (forty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

i played along with it yesterday too but i'm pretty sure i severely bowdlerized it, gonna have to study further

i'm honestly proud of myself for even being able to suss out how he's playing what he's playing without drum cover videos, when i first started drumming jimmy's playing made absolutely no sense to me

i tried to drum along to "geek usa" yesterday too and it was hilarious. chamberlin is a tank

one of several SP songs I can't even passably air drum

when i hear drum rolls, i know i'm either about to cherub rock or watch pocahontas on disney+

those snare rolls during the second and third choruses of Here is No Why >>>>

great use of the Ab octave pumpkin chord in that part!

that song kicks so much ass

I haven't drummed in forever but I would love to attempt drumming 'Muzzle'. At least that first bit. I assume the logistics are a little something like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV5JOQyUYNg

The drums on "Jellybelly" are maniacal.

Years ago I had friends that put together a Pumpkins cover band for a benefit and I hung out at a bunch of their practices. Even just watching someone else try to learn Jimmy's parts brought me a whole new appreciation.

did they try Jellybelly? lol

yeah even the "simple" parts are deceptively complex (like To Forgive, or even the straightforward electric version of Disarm where he comes in on the second verse)

tomorrow’s just an excuse away

my 6 yr old loves "an ode to no one"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBPX0TVjyc

I love that Drumeo series

This album. You have to absolutely be 15 years old to listen to this album and as such it's the best album to listen to when you're 15

It’s one of several albums I remember actively trainspotting for as a teenager, just thirsty as hell for any and all news

When it came out I was a few months from turning 19

I loved Eden's take. Continued thanks to ilxor ivy for expanding my love to the wider album during the poll.

Eden also dressed for the music video and tour

the night has come to hold us young

It’s one of several albums I remember actively trainspotting for as a teenager, just thirsty as hell for any and all news

this was the first album where i actually called a record store to see if they had it.

pumpkins/virgin weren’t available on the bmg/Columbia house music clubs and it definitely added an air of exclusivity or something

when i put on music while my family has dinner, i usually just tell the amazon echo to shuffle songs by an artist, and it'll usually play a few of their most popular songs. the other day i put on smashing pumpkins and the second song it played was, surprisingly, mellon collie's title track, and i was like "well, yes, track 1 on one of their biggest records, but no, this sucks." i always love "tonight, tonight" and thought it did a decent job of setting the table for that, but in retrospect, it kind of sounds like shit, adds nothing of value to the album.

This album came out 2 weeks after I turned 15. So, yeah