Rolling Teenpop 2007 Thread

That being said, I wanted to start out the festivities by saying that I have been listening to the Vanessa Hudgens album lately and have been very surprised at how good it is. It was rushed, and it shows, but "Come Back to Me" is one of the 3 or 4 worst songs on the album, and there are several standout tracks. Including "Say OK" which is the next single to Radio Diz.

I don't know anything about Lindsay Lohan/Ashlee Simpson/Hilary Duff really- where should I start, if indeed I should start?

Also, are The Fray teenpop? They seem to be teen band of the moment in 'Merica at least, according to my intensive livejournal research. Well, teen band that isn't emo, anyway. They're sort of borderline emo borderline indie powerpop/soft rock and completely clean sounding thus could be on Radio Disney (in fact, I kind of assume they are?)

FeFe Dobson got dropped didn't she? Which is a bit rubbish- I thought she was great.

True. Even McFly, who could've got a number one by sneezing a bit a year and a half ago, are basically going down the pan. Charlotte Church was probably the last great British teenpop escapade and we all know where that went. (Actually I've noticed a correllation between British teenpop and terrible album names: Mcfly are probably winning with 'Motion In The Ocean' but Charlotte's 'Tissues and Issues' is almost as rubbish) Consequently it's a bit of a fetish, more than a genre over here, I'd think.

ashlee simpson: frank will recommend more and better than i can - 'boyfriend' is the acest thing ever, though

hilarity duff - has made my favourite songs out of all three! never heard an actual duff album but 'beat of my heart', 'the math' and 'come clean' are all INCREDIBLE

holla

I will! I bought her self-titled album from 2003 (debut, I assume?) for $3 at a thrift store down the street in early December, and I like it a lot -- a missing link between Alanis and Skye, almost, and I was surprised by how hard it rocks (there's even some Kittie in there, I think: those acts are all Canadian, right?) Favorite track is probably "Unforgiven" (her obligatory getting-revenge-on-daddy number, if I'm remembering right) with the first three tracks and "Rock It Til You Drop It" and "Give It Up" not too far behind.

But nope, I have no idea where she's gone too since, either. (I also heard a CD single from 2005 recently, "Don't Let It Go To Your Head," which I found on the free table at work, and wasn't all that impressed by it at least compared to the earlier stuff I heard.)

Also Lex OTM about Hil-D's "The Math," if that had been issued as a single it would have been my #1 of that year. Sadly, no.

when she appeared she conveniently vanished when gunge was flying around. she banned herself

Where does she go from here? Where does she find an audience? Whom does she model herself on? Are there any current adult rock-confessional singer-songwriters that aren't bullshit? (Well, Marit, maybe. I don't see her style as a pathway for Ashlee, however. Young 'uns like Skye and Brie seem more thoughtful than any of the grownups I can think of. Maybe they can model sanity for Ashlee, and she can model compexity for them, if they pay attention to each other, though I kind of doubt they will.)

Brie seriously needs to find this thread, guaranteed she'll take some pointers AND participate. This should be a two-way process. In case she googles her name impulsively: Brie Larson Henry Miller Bunnies and Traps (hey, they have a theme song).

Whom does she model herself on?

I imagine Ashlee models herself on Kara DioGuardi more than anyone else. Kara doesn't seem to be full of shit; her music (with Platinum Weird anyway) just isn't as good as her proteges'.

Fefe's new album, Sunday Love, was technically (accidentally) released before (or while) Island dropped her, but I haven't found a physical copy of it. Hopefully it will get properly released in 2007. A couple of the tracks are great, particularly "If I Was a Guy" and "As a Blonde." I have most of the album if anyone wants to hear it, or at least a couple of other tracks.

"The Math" got Radio Disney play (I think), which should probably be enough to count it as a "single," since they don't really operate on the same wavelength as Billboard...basically if they play it, it's a single.

Brie Larson isn't particulary earnest althought her latest songs have been. Hilary Duff is part earnest/part not earnest. But no more earnest that Britney or Xtina were. Ooh, Hope Partlow's "Crazy Summer Nights", you might like that Lex it's a totally non-earnest teen pop song. All about the fun! Although it does have guitars. Actually this is harder than I thought.

I hear it as "You will be desperate and dying inside." Lindsay does an amazing "I wanna see you CRAWLING." But basic point is right. "First" is incredibly funny, making a joke out of her self-involvement. (Of course, Kara and John wrote "First," but they did a great job of finding words to embody Lindsay's image. (Or, perhaps, to create that image in my mind in the first place, since that was the first notice I ever took of her.))

But anyway, dancepop is all over teenpop radio; problem is that most of it is mediocre dancepop, 'cept for stuff they pull in from outside the Disney orbit (Chris Brown, JoJo, Rihanna). There are some promising *NSync-like tendencies in Corbin Bleu and Jesse McCartney, but nowhere near *NSync's strength.

By the way, I'm not sure how to categorize Hannah Montana and High School Musical musically (I mean, other than as "teenpop").

Here's the Naked Brothers Band site on Nickelodeon. Two good songs out of four. "Cra-a-a-a-azy car, leads me nowhere."

Second: Is Taana Gardner teenpop? Obviously there are arguments why she isn't, but I hear teenpop in her music - and that sense of young exuberance that is especially in vogue in Disney. (btw; Frank, thanks for the recommendation - she's amazing.)

Third: There's a new High School musical out this year, right?

Kill Hannah "I Love You to Death"
Cartoons (?) "Witch Doctor"
Turtles "Happy Together"
Simple Minds "Don't You Forget About Me"
Cascada "Everytime We Touch"
Melody Club "Baby"
Richard Hell & The Voidoids "Blank Generation"
Paula DeAndra "Walk Away"
One had her song deleted by artist, but has McFly pics as her wallpaper (she's from Denver)
One just posted the lyrics to Evanescence's "Immortal" in a MySpace bulletin
One just posted how unhappy she was to be too young to go to the Fall Out Boys show.

Whatver--if she doesn't exnay te tabloid thing, she's fucked.

Btw, Luke hasn't scored a U.S. hit since "Behind These Hazel Eyes," though he's produced and co-written a number of great tracks (and some mediocrities and duds, too).

So where do those indie influences go?

Also -- Meg & Dia placed very high in Absolutepunk polls for 2006. AP is more open-minded than AlternativePress forums, but still, co-opting that album as a punk album is a stretch-and-a-half. So maybe there's a reverse influence we haven't noticed. Last year, the intro to this forum was talking about how pop-punk (like Bowling for Soup) was becoming teenpop. But what I missed was that pop was becoming pop-punk was becoming punk. (And now I see Absolutepunk.net posted the new Modest Mouse single, which just confuses everything.)

Looking forward to what Skye comes up with.

Impossible, because she's been trying to ixnay the tabloid thing. In fact, she's arguably been less successful by resisting them than Lindsay, who has for better or worse thrown herself into it and at least topped year-end lists for "Most Annoying" or whatever else. I mean, Lindsay could even go INDIE CRED at this point if she wanted to (which she very well might do with her film career). Ashlee will probably never have cred, since by all rights she should already have it (how much more "rock" could Ashlee even go?)

Unless you consider getting a nosejob "asking for it" in terms of tabloid coverage, I see Ashlee as a fairly resistant victim of tabloid culture who in her professional life (e.g. leading role in Chicago in London) is trying to gain "credibility" and very clearly shuns tabloid coverage (she never answers questions about the n'job).

As for UK teenpop, we have Lil Chris where Sweden has Amy Diamond and I think that pretty much says it all. Even teenage popstars have to get Jo Whiley's permission these days. I do think there might be a place for a pop group aiming at under-12s though, as High School Musical has been very successful here, and hideous childrens TV show theme songs (namely LazyTown, which I hadn't even heard of before I saw the music video) can still go top 5. I think Chipz should be launched here!

As for UK teenpop, we have Lil Chris where Sweden has Amy Diamond and I think that pretty much says it all. Even teenage popstars have to get Jo Whiley's permission these days. I do think there might be a place for a pop group aiming at under-12s though, as High School Musical has been very successful here, and hideous childrens TV show theme songs (namely LazyTown, which I hadn't even heard of before I saw the music video) can still go top 5. I think Chipz should be launched here!

I was going to say something about Lil Chris, then wondered whether he wasn't really teenpop but pop for older people to think was teen? Either way, I agree wholly about the Whiley Factor. Good god, I hate that woman. Not quite as much as I hate that Sportacus git from Lazytown (which takes over TMF for TWO HOURS every morning) but still.

Also must give thanks to this thread for making me stop and check out Brie Larson finally - going by all the subcult trappings of her nonmusic activities I bet she won't be making teenpop much longer, for better or worse.

I'd like to see a heightened youth-Musical vibe to teen-pop actually. I was watching Camp again for the umpteenth time last week and my boyfriend pointed out that no-one really tends to put out songs like "Here's Where I Stand" anymore (when did they?). The closest is Christina Aguilera but her big numbers don't grapple with youth in the same way.

I guess I'm asking for more earnestness! Sorry Lex!

The teens I know here do indeed like, say, MCR, Marilyn Manson, AFI and maybe some emo bands.

Back to blindiningly obvious--when does it stop being teenpop, I mean, especially considering that most of the first wave are all growed up and all? Is it an age, a marketing idea, a concept of an age group or an aesthetic that's temprally bound or, um, what?

Kelly Clarkson - "Because of You" (January 6, 2006)
Fall Out Boy - "Dance, Dance" (January 17, 2006)
Mariah Carey - "Don't Forget About Us" (February 6, 2006)
Madonna - "Hung Up" (February 6, 2006)
Kelly Clarkson - "Walk Away" (June 1, 2006)
Fall Out Boy - "A Little Less Sixteen Candles, A Little More "Touch Me"" (June 6, 2006)
Red Hot Chili Peppers - "Dani California" (July 10, 2006)
Fort Minor - "Where'd You Go" (July 17, 2006)
Christina Aguilera - "Ain't No Other Man" (September 26, 2006)
Justin Timberlake featuring Timbaland - "SexyBack" (October 10, 2006)
AFI - "Love Like Winter" (December 11, 2006)

Nothing too shocking here, Kelly Clarkson and Fall Out Boy are huge of course, as we all know. A bit surprised to see "Hung Up" and the Chilis here, but whatever, maybe it's just that the videos were great. And what's up with no Fergie-ferg. Screw you kids.

it is funny but - like a lot of their earnest material - it's funny precisely because it's over-earnest! and i love it but at heart it's a cathartic rock song which takes more cues from courtney love than anything else lohan has sung. essentially - i am fine with this being a key part of teenpop but it's ALL like this now.

I was going to say something about Lil Chris, then wondered whether he wasn't really teenpop but pop for older people to think was teen?

i think this is correct, he seems pitched very much at an older popjustice demographic. anyway don't get me started on lil fucking chris, everyone i know loves it but it just fills me with horror. more proof that pop has forgotten a key First Principle ie "we dance to disco and we DON'T. LIKE. ROCK."

I must say I don't really understand the rock/pop dichotomy Lex appears to use here much - at least not in relation to teenpop. "U + Ur Hand" is a good example of the murkiness of the divide at the moment: yes, the chorus is the big earnest rock soar, but it's simultaneously the big pop manoeuvre within the song (conversely the "mature" "Nobody Knows" is like Pink's rapprochement with Christina Aguilera).

Of course I'm sure no-one at this thread would be pleased if rocky teenpop came at the expense of stuff like, say, "A Public Affair", but as per Frank I don't think pop is currently so dominated by one idea that this could happen. The success of Fergie and Nelly Furtado last year show this - "Hollaback Girl" has become a pop sub-genre now in the same way that "Sk8ter Boi" became a pop sub-genre in 2003/4.

Lady Sovereign's "Love Me Or Hate Me" triumphed on TRL, but this didn't result in radio play; Pink's "U & Ur Hand" got only minor radio action; ditto Paris's "Nothing In This World."

Looking up the current TRL voting list, the first act I've found is a teen r'n'b boyband called 2Much. They're similar to B2K, who I know were successful - would we call this teenpop or is it just r'n'b marketed to a younger audience (or perhaps the usual audience, just with singers of their own age)?

Anyway: I loved Camp.

(Wikipedia: Got to #12 on Hot 100 in its second week, stayed in the charts from April to July, "Soundtrack to Your Life" hovered in the 50-ish range.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcEfQr4J6yo

The Corbin Bleu song is pretty likable, I think, but pallid not only in comparison to - say - JoJo or Chris Brown, but also in comparison to old *NSync and New Kids In The Block.

Jordan Pruitt, she of "Outside Looking In," a quite winning bit of teen-sensitive alienation, is now heading towards dance pop: "We Are Family" and the new one, "Step To The Rhythm" - which is not an amazing song, but her timbre is excellent in a way that I can't think how to describe. It's got enough burrs and bumps to give it character, but it still basically flows. Album due February 6. "Teenager," on her MySpace, has stereotypical words about supposed teen concerns, but the voice gives it feelings that the words only wave at.

Speaking of rock bands, Enter Shikari seems to be the big one for the UK in 2007. Their concerts often end in ambulances being called, so that will attract all the young lads who like to show off their bruises.

I think music for British teenagers is so much a badge of identity, that predicting who they'll like is just like predicting fashion trends. It's all part of the tribal thing that seems to be more prevalent than ever in schools. When I was there (and that wasn't long ago) I didn't have to choose whether to be a chav or emo, and now if you're 14 and you don't fit into one or the other you'll probably get beaten up by both sides. It's like hippies and punks and mods and rockers, and yet I don't feel any of the revolutionary spirit that was supposedly surrounding those tribes. I don't think these kids are going to look back in 20 years nostalgically at being emo... or am I wrong? It all just seems very negative, hating themselves, hating other people. A lot could be read into it sociologically.

Frank, I love Jordan Pruitt. And I agree that she's a really great singer (and not just good at singing but good at framing and phrasing the lyrics, if that makes sense), but that some of the songwriting is not up to snuff. Fortunately, "Jump to the Rhythm", her worst written song in my opinion, is not written by the team (Robin Scoffield and Keith Thomas) that are writing the rest of her record. "Outside Looking In" and "Teenager" are. Give this girl some great songs and that could be an outstanding album.

I have been a-scouting for the Jukebox, and have turfed up a fair amount of teenpop from Germany that I might get around to putting in here - none of it's wonderful, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYdc3-Kfu_Y

The pop music I like has never been so stupid as to say such things.

Personally, for non-sincerity-obsessed teenpop, I'd recommend that Lex maybe start with the Aquamarine and Darcy's Wild Life soundtracks.

Beyond that, this thread has already left me in the dust, after only three short days. If I'm this far behind now, where will I be come October?

Finally, has anybody listened to the Paula DeAnda album? Sounds as mediocre and forgettable and unexuberant and unbubblegum and fade-into-the-background-leaving-me-clueless-about-why-anybody-gives-a-flying-fuck as Ciara or Cassie or [fill in the blank] to me, but I'm willing to hear any reasonably intelligent arguments otherwise.

isn't criticising cassie for not being bubblegum or exuberant a bit like, i dunno, criticising ashlee for not being restrained enough? i mean, in naming cassie and ciara you've basically named my the two popstars who've stood head and shoulders above everyone else in recent times, so i'm confused as to why they don't grab you. certainly what they're doing is interesting enough to be admired even if it's not your thing.

fwiw cassie does get bubblegum in places on her album - the album tracks are much gentler than the singles. 'what do u want' sounds like one of paris hilton's rockier numbers, and 'ditto' is charming and girlish.

it should have been obvious to all that my call for less sincerity is actually a call for less bloody guitars.

(Fwiw, the teenpop album I've probably listened to most this week is Wild Orchid's debut album from, like, 1993 or thereabouts, featuring one Stacy Ferguson, which I found for $0.80 at a Half-Price Books in Houston last week. Their followup was good too, but my copy of that is in storgage apparently. At the time they seemed like not-quite-Latin-enough Latin freestyle, but now they seem a lot closer to the Latin freestyle era than this one. Or at least to the Seduction era.)

sincerity was a red herring i think. but comparing ashlee to britney - even when ashlee's being funny, singing about parties, the fact that she's doing it over instrumentation which owes more to heavy rock than any other genre, and in a voice which is very keen to emphasise how much genuine emotion it sings with...kind of puts her on the earnest side of things. whereas britney, even when she was singing about intense emotion, did it with...froth, and plastic, such that people sneered that she didn't know what she was singing about.

I also certainly think rock music can be great dance music.

And I think it may not technically be teenpop (since no doubt they'll bill it as mature etc) but the new Sophie Ellis-Bextor song 'Catch You' (Cathy Dennis) is a) absolutely brilliant and b) something I could well see Hilary sliding towards after 'Play With Fire' direction-wise.

i am one of her few fans around here I think.

not entirely convinced yet. the song itself is great and sophie too. but her voice doesn't really seem to suit the girls aloud-like production.

Jessie's got a little conflict, but she's not going far enough with it, but there's a glimmer of something interesting: "Don't wanna leave it up to my imagination/ Everybody's got their own interpretation/ Maybe I don't deserve an explanation/ I can't tell/ Is it real or true/ What I heard about you/ That you love me"

Jessie has commentary on every song, here's what she says about that one, "What I Hear": "It's hard to believe that God loves us as much as he does. People tried to tell me over and over again of the depth of God's love but I found it hard to accept for a while even though I truly wanted to. What you first hear about a relationship with God just seems too perfect. However, in the end, he really is everything they said and more."

And hey, she has a (slight) sense of humor in her earnestness: "A jerk ex-boyfriend or Satan = two people you don't want to see ever again but somehow always seem to resurface. Whether it's feelings for an old boyfriend or the temptation of sin -- It's nothing that I want to deal with anymore." Yo, temptation of sin = feelings for an ex-boyfriend maybe? That would be a great song! She could out-"Chemicals React" Aly and AJ!

Last thing: she has an ambiguous rapture song, almost as good as "Toodaloo Earth" by Cali.

But upthread you said that your call for fewer guitars was really a call for less earnestness. But anyway, calls by the Lex for less earnestness aren't necessarily a hundred percent in earnest. Also, earnestness and bubblegum are not mutually exclusive (viz. Cowsills, Melanie, Friend And Lover, JoJo, Jonas Brothers, etc.). Also, as we've been saying and as you've been not noticing, teenpop is swamped in non-Ashlees and non-Lindsays.

Personally, I think Ashlee might do a better version of "Stars Are Blind" - or anyway, an interesting one, since her voice is darker than Paris's and so rubs differently against island beats. She recorded a charming reggae number, "Fall In Love Me," which was only available in Japan, as far as I know, but it's a sweet beach song. The accompaniment was over-clumsy (don't know if it was Shanks; dance tends not to be his forté), but the song's got a nice feel anyway.

- a couple of Paula DeAnda singles: OK, a bit bland. Neither were as good as "Easy"

- Jordan Pruitt's MySpace songs: the three I hadn't heard before were all good (even the "We Are Family" cover was interesting, until it suddenly cut out after about 1'30"). Have now added her forthcoming LP to my Amazon wishlist. I see that "Jump To The Rhythm" is also on the soundtrack CD of the Jump In! Disney movie that Jessica mentioned upthread; the CD is out today in the US. Apart from Pruitt, Corbin Bleu and Jeannie Ortega, I don't recognise any of the artists. Anyone?

- Hellogoodbye: "Here In Your Arms" was cute, but not sure I ever want to hear it again

- Monrose: zzzzz

Keke Palmer is an actress in the movie. She was in Akeelah and the Bee

Drew Seeley wrote most of the songs for and did most of Zac Efron's singing on High School Musical

Those were the other 3 I recognized, but maybe someobdy else can fill in the rest. Presumably they are all just random filler "up-and-coming" Hollywood Record artists that Diz wanted to promote.

I was also kind of thinking of it as the only country where Us5 have ever had any success, or are likely to. Though if they're big in Germany, then it'll usually follow that Austria laps them up too...

For some reason, in terms of UK stuff to put on here, the first thing I thought of was Th e View's 'Same Jeans'. They're floppy-fringed teenagers from Dundee, who write songs about having worn the same jeans for four days in a row. Oh, and they've got guitars. I dunno, I can just imagine lots of the other people mentioned on the thread singing this song, given that it's a bit simple and has a kind of silly sped-up bit tacked on the end. I don't like it much, but it feels like it might fit on here, somehow.

Right, er, JC Chasez's 'Until Yesterday' - how long has this been knocking about, exactly? Was it discussed on the last thread? I only started checking Mediabase around the end of December, and was somewhat excited to see it turn up on their Pop Taking Off lists. Has it just not made any kind of ripples or somesuch? All the stuff on YouTube seems to have been put on about 3 months ago. It's quite good, anyhow.

Also - the new Relient K single. Have they always been The Click Five in disguise?

The Truth Squad is a vocal and dance hip hop/pop- “super group” -comprised of four uniquely talented young performers that individually have mad skills in dance, electric vocals, and an unbelievable presence. They also share a unifying desire to fight lies and expose dishonesty. Pledging to stick together through thick and thin, the Truth Squad has set out to show how friendship and trust are the keys to a better world and best of all, they do it all through phat beats and tight moves.

They all have acting/dance resumes, one of them was a dancer in a Missy video (forget which one) and "Hollaback Girl."

Q: If you could change something about the pop scene today, what would it be?

Miki: Not to make it as provocative as it is and to make it more kid friendly. That's maybe one thing to change.

BOOOOOOORING.

So, just listened to their single off the new album, "The River." Which sounds like they've evolved into P!ATD and MCR. Benji's vocals are completely inscrutable for me compared to Young and the Hopeless. I don't want to sound like G.C. can't do anything right, and in fact, the song is pretty good - well-produced, a nice amount of angst. Yet it's hard to take G.C. seriously.

I know people on the AltPress forums are going to hate G.C., just because of who they are. [Random Mosher from the AltPress forums: "Stick your head in a tub of water for 10 minutes please. Good Charlotte is the worst, worst, worst, candy coated, cookie cutter, Tiger Beat, Poser, TRL babies, Pop-f*gs, scene killing *ssh*l*s I have ever heard or scene...EVER!"] And certainly, there is something inauthentic about the style change. Yet I can't ignore the fact that they sound better, more cohesive, on the single than they ever did. I only wish they had retained some of the spunk from Young + Hopeless, instead of going for the easy push buttons of their audience.

"As I walk through the valley
of the shadow of LA
The footsteps that were next to me
have gone their separate ways
I've seen enough now
to know that beautiful things
don't always stay that way"

Didn't "Welcome to the Jungle" do the same sentiment, but make it fun?

"Baptized in the river (on my own)
Baptized in the river (on my own)
I wanna be delivered"

Thursday does the religious-social intersection so much more convincingly, too. (Sugar in Sacrament).

What Mordechai said about the clunkiness of Good Charlotte has always been something that bothered me. They're good for about three lines and then say something so cringeworthy I have to change the channel or whatever.

...wait, hang on, I was talking about 'Keep Your Hands Off My Girl,' I didn't realised 'The River' was the single. It's alright, it sounds like Funeral For A Friend crossed with Nightmare Of You.

Good Charlotte are sort of the in-laws of teenpop, I would've thought, since aside from the Hilary Duff connection (are they still going out?) they don't quite fit into the genre and are vaguely hated by it, despite having obvious similarities to a lot of teenpop.

This may be a really stupid question but I heard some Aimee Allen the other day- teenpop, yes?

Anyway, speaking of Charlotte, she says that 'Waste My Time' reminds her of Moby + Gwen Stefani doing 'South Side.' I hear what she means, in terms of Alexz Johnson's voice sounding like Gwen's in the chorus.

Most of the music on the first series (which is all I've seen any of) is ace, especially '24 Hours.' Some of it is hilarious. There's a fourth series coming out soon I believe.

Not really; he only wrote "Getcha Head In The Game," which was more a group song with (if I recall correctly) Corbin Bleu rather than Zac leading the singing; and the version that got airplay was B5's. Seeley did sing on all the Zac Efron songs, but what I read in Billborad was that Zac sang when the register was low enough but Drew did all the high register lines. So Drew's the one who's soaring and flying. Drew rather than Zac performed at the HSM show in Madison Square Garden.

Matthew Gerrard and Robbie Nevil: s/d and c/d.

They often write as a team, with Gerrard usually handling the production. They did two of the most popular tracks from HSM ("Start of Something New" and "We're All In This Together") and a whole bunch of the tracks on Cheetah Girls 2, which I saw last night. The thing is, their tracks are usually the ones I like least. My favorite song on HSM is "Breaking Free" by Jamie Houston, the two somewhat good Cheetah Girls singles are "Strut" and "Amigas Cheetahs," also by Jamie Houston. "Dance With Me" is on the soundtrack but performed by Drew Seeley and Belinda and written by Ray Cham (who cowrote "Getcha Head In The Game") and Charlene Licera, is heard in the film as a track that Sabrina and the teen count dance to.

But Gerrard actually has one of the better tracks (and one of the not better tracks) on the Vanessa Hudgens album, a good, somewhat dark-sounding dance track appropriately called "Let's Dance," and he co-wrote "The High Road," which is a nice (though below average for that very good album) track on JoJo's The High Road. (Crucial credit on that track, however, might be Jonathon "J.R." Rotem, who wrote and produced LeToya's really good "All Eyes On Me.") Gerrard also cowrote (w/ Avril Lavigne) Kelly Clarkson's "Breakaway," which is a good song despite having a line about spreading one's wings (but again overshadowed by other stuff on the album). Also wrote an unheard-by-me Lindsay Lohan track on the soundtrack to Confessions of a Teen Drama Queen, and one of my least favorite Hilary Duff singles ("Why Not"). He has something to do with the Bratz. And a lot more, I'm sure. Robbie Nevil had success as a singer in the late '80s, early '90s.

I wasn't a fan of Cheetah Girls 2 either, Frank. Still, it was better than the original.

Life is a work of art/ You gotta paint it colorful,
Can make it anything U want/ Don't have to stick to any rules
You don't need a high IQ/ To succeed in what you do,
You just gotta have no doubt/ Just believe in yourself.

(Nope, Gerrard wrote a different one. Jamie Huston is on this soundtrack, too, wrote "A Day in the Life" which I haven't heard)

And Jamie Houston wrote "Pumpin Up The Party" which is almost inarguably her worst song (at least, as far as I am concerned). So Hannah Montana turns the Disney world UPSIDE DOWN.

Then again "J. Lurie" (acc to Allmusic) has cowriting credit on my two favorite Hannah Montana songs, "I Got Nerve" and "This Is The Life". F. Lurie is cowriter on "If We Were a Movie"

Whoops, I take back what I said about V above. It's a good album, but I definitely like the Hannah Montana OST more. Neither are top 20 albums of the year.

A few recent articles about the HSM concert tour: One pretty good on Tom Breihan's VV blog, one not so good from NYT.

"Jump to the Rhythm" was by Robyn Johnson and Frank Fitzpatrick, not her normal songwriters, and nobody I've heard of.

Jamie Houston did "Vertical" which is kinda mediocre.

Gerrard/Nevil did "Push It to the Limit" and that Keke Palmer song which name I forget, which are the two pretty good songs from the movie. I'm starting to kinda like "Push It to the Limit", after initially hating it.

On another note, I'm not digging Ashley Tisdale's singles very much. "He Said, She Said" is OK, but I'm not into "Be Good To Me" (and does anybody know the songwriters on that?). Course I might change my mind on this, but neither is really grabbing me.

This is from one of Frank's posts on last year's thread. Just mentioning it because according to my Pandora station, it counts as teenpop! Updating it today, they've added a lot of artists recently. They even have Leslie Carter's "Like Wow!" and Daphne & Celeste's "U.G.L.Y." but no other D&C.

Does Bextor count as teen pop, or is she now artpop like Kylie?

Aliana Lohan released her Xmas album while ILM was down and it's...pretty strange. Video for second-most-resoundingly-"kicked"-on-RD-last-year single (don't know which was #1) "Christmas Magic" is actually kinda disturbing, watch for the weirdly sinister reindeer and snowman at the end that coulda been stand-ins for the dog-suit guy in The Shining. More interesting/WTF is "Lohan Holiday" feat. Lindsay somewhere in the background (I think?), available here.

I listened to/reviewed a whole boatload of teenpop Christmas songs this December. Here are links to some of the more notable ones:

Hilary Duff - "Santa Claus Lane"; Hilary Duff - "What Christmas Should Be"; Christina Aguilera - "Christmas Time"; Mariah Carey - "Miss You Most at Christmastime" (presumably you all know "All I Want For Christmas Is You" already, so I won't take the time to get a link); Cheetah Girls - "Five More Days Til Christmas" (This is the best Cheetahs songs that I've heard - er, sorry about the sound quality though); 'N Sync - "Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays"; S Club 7 - "Perfect Christmas". Those are all the songs that I reviewed that are worth listening that I could find on YouTube.

I wasn't a big fan of Hannah Montana's "Rocking Around the Christmas Tree", as I found that her voice didn't work well for the rocking tune they were going for. Maybe after she matures and her voice fills out more she'll be able to pull that stuff off, but right now it didn't sound great. Jordan Pruitt had a Christmas song too, and it was a really good little tune called "Santa Don't Stop", but for the life of me I can't find a free version for listening anywhere online.

Anyway: Was this album in production during HSM? And is it a Disney album? Who is writing the songs? I'm curious if this is a product of her (her manager, whatever) impetus V. the Disney machine's. Obviously for each of these Disney stars there's a point where they have to distinguish themselves from Disney - but I hadn't heard anything about Hudgens before HSM, so this sudden departure from the script feels... well... scripted.

*Also seen him spelled "Arnthor."

Kidz Bop - "Chicken Noodle Soup"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjr-bP-sSgs

(I jest. It's cute.)

Also, Frank, rereading your initial post in this thread (looking for a possible comment on Hudgens) I noticed you said: "Teen newbie Taylor Swift is on the country stations with teen confessional sounds and concerns and may have the talent to match Aly & A.J. if not Ashlee (yet)."

What I heard from Swift makes this statement really confusing. Obviously you aren't comparing styles, or genres (or even a vocal comparison)... is it just the confessional style?

Now that you mention it, her voice strikes me as almost having some of Amy Diamond's phrasing/affectation, the obvious difference being that Ali's way way more subdued (but not bad). I just can't imagine what the general idea behind this production was, since it doesn't seem to be in conversation with any recent music, teenpop or otherwise (maybe background music in a Hallmark commercial, but I bet even Hallmark's moved on to indie rock by now). Do keyboards even have those synth presets anymore? Ditto the costumes in that video...were those all lying around in some wardrobe closet somewhere near the shoot, or did someone actually design them?

(It was "I Like Christmas" that got kicked, can't find the number one most hated of the year yet.)

Mordy - Taylor does softer rock than Ashlee or Aly & A.J. or Kelly, but some of her songs make her emotional growth and personal experiences the issue; e.g., "A Place In This World" starts off, "I don't know what I want, so don't ask me/'Cause I'm still trying to figure it out/Don't know what's down this road, I'm just walking/Trying to see through the rain coming down/Even though I'm not the only one/Who feels the way I do." And the chorus - its melody and harmony - runs very close to "Behind These Hazel Eyes." Her vocal twang and the banjo or mandolin running through the chorus of "Should've Said No" doesn't make it any less a wailing rockin' teen rager on the order of Ashlee's "I Am Me." And "Tim McGraw" has smart smart smart lyrics. Not that there's no precedence for this in country: Deana Carter is a singer-songwriter precursor. (Not an age thing; Deana was already in her 30s before she hit with "Strawberry Wine." "Tim McGraw" is a variation on the first-love reminiscence of "Strawberry Wine." Strange that young Taylor is doing a reminiscence song. Also strange that the lyrics may be better than those in any of the hundred other first-love reminiscence songs in country since "Strawberry Wine.") I'll see if I can hunt down some of my December posts on Taylor from the ad hoc rolling country-in-email-exile substitution for a thread.

the jojo album is VERY good, having listened to it all weekend...

I wrote something about her current album here, if you're a)interested or b)very bored.

"Authentic soul" tedium for grownups with "good taste"

yeah she's pitched as this to various quarters because that helps her shift units. doesn't mean that's what she is.

and her single is about not being able to stop drinking or taking drugs, apparently, so that makes her Billie Holiday

no one's claiming she's billie holiday, and the single isn't so much about how she can't stop drinking boo hoo, it's that she's not going to stop drinking fuck you. ie what hazel said. (a side point about the drinking: i think we're pretty much past the moral censure of famous women who get pissed, in the uk, apart from the more right-wing newspapers. when chaz church and girls aloud go on benders, it's reported luridly, but there's a sense of "good strong healthy specimens of british womanhood" about it all. with amy winehouse it is different because...well she's probably approaching lohan levels of self-abuse here. there's no "apparently" about any of it, girl does need help.)

And what makes her authentic is that her singing strains all the life out, so see, she's obviously on her last legs and therefore highly moving.

the singing in 'rehab' is jaunty and jolly and cocking a snook at everyone who thinks she should be on her last legs! at no point does winehouse even try to move us with tales of alcoholism - the booze is incidental to what she does try to move us with, the heartbreak and vague self-loathing. she succeeds because she's genuinely witty - not waving a big HELLO I'M COMEDY sign around a la lily allen or mike skinner, but smart and self-aware and self-deprecating and assured. listen to the way she sings the couplet "i don't ever want a drink again - ooh, i just need a friend", the wink-wink at the audience of the first line undercut so effectively by the pathos of the second. and 'you know i'm no good' - which is basically my favourite song right now if only because it's a spot-on depiction of a situation i was in a while back - is all about how harmed/harmful she is, but it's full of references to, like, chips and pitta and stuff.

Jan 15, 2007 - Top 30: Usual suspects, plus new Ashley Tisdale at 30 with "Be Good to Me," "Kashmir"-pop. Corbin "Sacre" Bleu at #1 for the second or third consecutive week. Only major airplay discrepancy are two Keke Palmer tracks and Slumber Party girls climber "Countdown." Mailbag: Prude-rap wannabe and former incubatee Lil' Josh KICKED at 53%. Incubator: LAX (as in "Strap on your seatbelts and hang on, because LAX is cleared for take off."), very Cheetah Girls. (Last week was milk carton cover girl Britney Christian, does-a-body-good campaign crossover rock + power ballad "Make It Go Away" which might be about milk's power to combat calcium deficiency.)

but unlike others of that ilk, joss stone et al, both lauryn and amy i think are much better than that. (not that i think there's anything wrong with coffee-table diluted soul: i love me some sade.)

americans might not pick up on amy's dry humour but they'll probably pick up on the "boozy british chick" thing, which is if not humour than certainly black comedy.

1. eat more magenta colored foods
2. do a better job of protecting the rain forest.
3. finish composing my opus.
4. try to watch ALL the star wars movies in one day.
5. kick it old school by learning the running man
6. end my relationship with flava flav.
7. remember that my dog has feelings too.
8. respond to my hate mail more promptly.
9. create a DVD series that involves tai chi, chai tea, and tie-dye.
10. FINISH MY DAMN RECORD.

Open call for submissions for the March issue of Bunnies and Traps. Direct all mail to submissions at bunniesandtraps dot com. Just sayin'.

When I was in like 9th grade-ish, the two songs that were absolutely massive in my school, apart from the obv. Savage Garden, Spice Girls, etc. were "Barbie Girl" (by Aqua) and "Tubthumping" (by Chumbawamba). In the bus on the way to school, my friends and I would memorize the words to "Tubthumping" and sing it on the way there. I'm sure the driver was thrilled. Both still sound great to me today. Never heard another Chumbawamba song, though I'm kinda curious if they are any good. Aqua, I know, released a great followup single called "Lollipop (Candyman)", which I've seen Frank talk up and which my friends and I also loved. Anybody heard any other Chumbawama or Aqua know if they are any good?

Admittedly, I dunno if this is teenpop, but Frank on one of the Pazz & Jop Poptimist polls posted a link to Jimmy Ray's "Are You Jimmy Ray?", which I literally cannot stop listening to. Just wanted to post it here in case any of you missed it there and don't know it. The song almost defies description, but is great.

Xhuxk, you have to understand that the British charts now are terrible, so Amy comes on like a fresh breath of deliberately stale air. So far I find her singing way too mannered - and not mannered as "classy," but mannered as in she's trying to slur like Dorothy Parker. (Which may be exactly how she talks, but it still comes across as mannered.) But her Sade groove is, at least, a groove, in contrast with so many clompy British rock bands keeping it real by keeping it clompy. (Maybe one reason the Arctic Monkeys did so well is that they came on as good ole clompin' blokes but actually propelled the rhythm.)

You say this as though it were a bad thing! This line alone sold me the album. I'm grabbing a copy to listen to the first chance I get. Frank, I'm actually curious where you've heard Parker read -- I found a bunch of mp3s of her, but I'm always in the hunt for more. I love her voice. It sounds drenched in scotch and Lucky Strikes.

I liked the first Aqua album a lot- my little brother had a copy on tape and it used to get quite a lot of play in my mum's car on the way to/from school. There's a great song on there about a sort of fairytale princess who's generally making a mess of things.

I'm going to look up Toy Box now.

My hangover made me deeply confused as to what was going on with that Hilary Duff advert. Doesn't quite sound like there's a 'Come And Get It' in the air, to me but it does all sound rather promising, certainly.

Chumbawumba were horrible greasy agit-punks, e.g. they did an album called 'Pictures of Starving Children Sell Records', who occasionally did some rather sweet pop things -- I'm still fond of a song called 'Someone's Always Telling You How to Behave' which sounds a bit like Dubstar, or a more electronic Frazier Chorus.

i fucking hated chumbawamba. dreadful.

i have been recording the new record.

THERE! it was said. laugh you fools! curse you and your fists that shake and slam down on the table to disrupt my can of iced tea that sits on the table. i shant cower I say! i will rue the day! i might be your criminal. but at least im the one who calls you to remind you of the fact that everyone is jealous of you. if those calls mean nothing, dare i say, i will gladly withdraw and bend my head down as i count to three for the machete to come swopping over his head and slice into mine.

im scared of my brain.

I have yet to give Ms. Winehouse my full attention, knowing only two of her songs*. So far I like reading Moggy's description of her voice more than actually listening to the voice.

*Not counting her duet with Charlotte Church on "Beat It," which is a massive train wreck.

(Any Brits here want to make the case for "to"?)

Co-written with DioGuardi and whom else? So far Kara's always had someone helping with the music. (Maybe Hilary's helping with the music!) Thing is, Kara, appealing and ubiquitous as she is, has had almost all of her great moments with John Shanks on board. Great exceptions that jump to mind would be Kylie's "Spinning Around" (written with Paula Abdul and a couple more people), Kelly Clarkson's "Hear Me" (with Clif Magness, who seemed the key player on that one), Paris Hilton's "Jealousy" (w/ Scott Storch!), and Paris Hilton's "Not Leaving Without You" (w/ Greg Wells). In general, her work with Wells, while producing some good stuff (Lindsay's "Confessions of a Broken Heart" and "Who Loves You," for instance) isn't as good as the songs with Shanks (Lindsay's "First" and "Nobody 'Til You"). And of course, Kara's supreme moments with Hilary - "Come Clean" and "Fly," two of teenpop's supreme moments - are with Shanks producing and co-writing. Her own band, Platinum Weird*, has four songs with Shanks in on the writing credits, and those are four of the six tracks that are OK or better.

Don't know if "dance" is her strength (isn't Shanks's strength, either); I don't really think Kara's done a lot in that direction, other than her four with Paris (the other two are "Screwed" (w/ Wells) and "I Want You" (w/ Rotem, Gibb, and Bogart)). Mike Spencer was the producer on "Spinning Around." If you want to count Gwen Stefani's "Rich Girl" as dance - and why shouldn't you? - she's one of the cast of thousands in the writing credits, but I don't think she had a lot to do with the overall sound on that one. Her writing for Celine Dion has been OK but not amazing. (Um, there's been some good stuff with Anastasia too; don't remember how dancey it is.)

*On the regular Platinum Weird album, that is, not on the pseudo-throwback album w/ "Erin Grace," which I haven't heard.

Hilary has been co-writing every song with Kara Dioguardi ( Gwen Stefani, Pussycat Dolls , Kelly Clarkson...) so each song is very personal to her. She has been working with some excitng producers and mixers such as Richard "Humpty" Vission (The Killers, Sting, Usher), Tim and Bob (Madonna, Destiny's Child, Will Smith) and 4 time Grammy winner, Manny Marroquin (John Mayer, Alicia Keys, kanye West.

No idea where the production input is coming from yet ("Play with Fire" is Vission, I think?). But my impression so far is that the writing credits are all Duff/DioGuardi...has a nice ring to it, too. DuffGuardi...

"With Love" goes for official ads to mainstream radio February 6th 2007. With Love was recently released to Radio Disney on the week of January 15 sometime.

According to Wiki, the forthcoming album is called Confessions of Love. And the RD bit is accurate, "With Love" was surreptitiously slipped into voting eligibility some time in the last week or two. ("Play with Fire" was never made eligible through voting or otherwise.)

So maybe the post-Paris DioGuardi gets dance? And Hilary Duff has an edge of being ultra-adaptable -- she's got a kind of charming anonymity that I think might fit this kind of music nicely (and I like what I've heard so far). The fact that her voice fits songs like "Fly" and "Come Clean" so well actually seems a little counter-intuitive to me, and maybe effective in part because you're not expecting to be moved by a performer who's most striking trait is, arguably, being such an excellent chameleon.

They've got a very strong Chicago punk sound (The Academy Is..., Plain White T's) which makes their TRL status (or whatever status now that TRL is gone) more a coincidence. Or a broad appeal. Except that there is something very teenpop about their sound - the rushed delivery of super-articulate lyrics, the pop hooks. They remind of a highschooler I know who is quite intelligent, and very precocious, but comes off as a little precious because of it. There's something similar with Fallout Boy. Plus, they've got the word 'Boy' in their name. ;) Anyway, obviously this isn't traditional teenpop, though are they that far off from Meg&Dia, Avril (new album coming out!), or Duff?

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0037,eddy,18135,22.html

(I'd reviewed Tubthumping in the Voice a couple years earlier, but I can't find it in the web archives.)

They stand out from a lot of the rest of emo by actually being quite funny (MCR, for instance, take themselves more seriously than it's possible to believe) and also being a lot more normal-looking than most bands (MCR again) and, well, they got Babyface to produce their most recent album on the basis Pete Wentz (bassist/lyricist) liked the Josie and the Pussycats soundtrack. The new album is very ace, on that note- it's extremely pop with lots of clapping and sing-a-long moments etc. and as one of my friends pointed out, the single sounds like *NSync.

I mean, to me, the difference between them and Aly and AJ is that Fall Out Boy sound slightly more pop (Aly and AJ have some metallic moments, imo) and neither A nor A has ever got her cock out on the internet.

But I thought "Another Dumb Blonde" is THEE Cher cyborg effect Hoku song? Idolator even said so.

It's a teasing slice of kiss-off pop, and its smart-chick spirit isn't even marred by the vocoder drops that plagued so much of Billboard's Hot 100 during the post-"Believe" era.

Thing with that M2M line, "may not have the blonde hair you like," is that at the time Marit was the (smart) blonde! So the question is whether or not Marion sings that line. Actually, I think they BOTH sing it. (Although their wording kind of ruins my argument, because Marit could very well have blond hair without having the blond hair "that you like.")

And of course by the time Ashlee comes along, she needs to HIDE her (naturally) blond hair for fear of being tagged "light n' frivolous" (Stephen Thomas Erlewine called I Am Me "going goth by going blonde," except he follows that up with a totally dumb (not blonde) line like "no matter how hard Simpson tries, no matter how foreboding the surface, beneath it all she's still light and frivolous.") I can't figure out whether or not Marit is naturally light- or dark-haired, but if it's the former that's another example of blonde self-hatred.

Anyway, the song can be streamed here, apparently (though I'm not positive that E-40 is on this version, since I haven't listened):

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=43383393

Ashlee Wants Robert Smith from the Cure

When she returns to recording pop, Ashlee says she want the Cure's Robert Smith to help with her comeback. After he came to her last performance as Roxie Hart in 'Chicago', she says,"Robert Smith from the Cure came to my last show in London, and I don't know if I was more excited about him or that it was the last show! "To work with Robert Smith would be an honour."

Seems to me that it'd be Ashlee who could give him sophistication in his lyrics (though honestly I don't know many Cure lyrics, but what in the world is unsophisticated about Ashlee's "Say Goodbye," for instance)?

http://www.myspace.com/katenashmusic

Being hyped as the next Lily Allen. Teen enough for this thread, if perhaps not pop enough. Interesting though.

Her song "Shake Your Pants" ("All my girls grab a boy and take him by the hand/ drag him to the dancefloor and make him shake his pants!") was written by none other than Drew Seeley. Shades of P!nk-to-be (or Fergie-to-be?) in "Girlfriend"...which made me finally check out Stacy Fergie Ferguson on Kids Inc.. Hadn't seen it since the show was actually on the air.

There's also some strange feature on her page where a buncha fans call in, say hello, and occasionally submit demos by phone.

"Oh i miss the kiss of treachery the aching kiss
Before i feed the stench of a love for a younger
Meat and the sound that it makes when it cuts
In deep the holding up on bended knees the
Addiction of duplicities as bit by bit it starts
The need to just let go my party piece"

Obviously that won't do it for everyone. But hard verbs and nouns - solid words - do it for me far more than vaguer lyrics where your pointing at something, but lack the words for it. "Maybe you don't
Love me / Like I love you baby / Cause the broken in you doesn't make me run / There is beauty / In the dark side." Even as I write this, I'm not sure there's anything objectively better about the Cure song than the Ashlee song. Obviously a Springsteen song where everything is so specific - that's the height for me. And I feel like the Cure is somewhere in between. Like; let's get some synonyms for love, or at least an explanation of what makes this love more special than any other love.

(I don't think this is aimed at people like Jeff, who isn't comparing Kate to Lily but just mentioning that others are doing so.)

The Ashlee line ("Maybe you don't love me/Like I love you, baby/'Cause the broken in you doesn't make me run") tells as complex a story as any stand-alone line I've ever come across, from anyone, song lyric, novel, play, poem, aphorism. Shakespeare, Austen, Berry. And generous and sad, the story. You don't need the rest of the song, even. You get everything: the situation, her attitude towards it, her feelings. On last year's thread Tim illuminated those lyrics better than I could possibly do, so I'll just paste in what he wrote.

"Maybe/you don't/love me/like I/love you/baby/'cos the broken in you doesn't make me run"

Something about that line is so ace, maybe it's that it drags out the simple first part so much, then all the meaning is actually so tightly compressed in the second half.

Then he elaborated a couple of weeks later:

Thinking of that line in "Say Goodbye", I think one of the things that makes it work so well is that, yeah, at first glance it sounds pretty straightforward, but actually it's almost encoded. A straightforward line would be something like: "You can't handle me 'cos I'm complicated" or "You only like me when I make you look good." But instead she says:

"Maybe you don't love me like I love you, baby, cos the broken in you doesn't make me run. There is beauty in the darkness. I'm not frightened - without it I could never feel the sun."

It's a lot less judgmental and, I guess, more reflective, this way: like she's just coming to understand the difference in the way that she and her (soon to be?) ex approach questions of love and relationships. And she's not sure which is right or wrong (if right and wrong there is) but she's not sorry for being the way she is. And then on another level she's telling him that it's okay to be damaged.

And then, in response to something Don said:

I think Ashlee is saying "we're both broken (damaged, not heartbroken), but you want someone unbroken (maybe because you can't handle your own brokenness). Whereas because I know that I'm broken I'm willing to accept that dealing with your brokenness is the only way I could make this arrangement work. You disagree, so this relationship isn't gonna work."

Wrapped up in this is the belief that the notion of a "fairweather friend" being a bad thing holds doubly true for relationships: that it's only by understanding someone in all their complexity and difficulty (rather than some seemingly unblemished pedestal perfection) that you can make love really meaningful.

I think Tim's on the money, and that Ashlee* does all this in 19 clear words, not quite conversational ("the broken in you doesn't make me run" would be a little odd in casual speech), but straightforward, not dressed in poetry.

I am a bit puzzled how such a simply worded line pulled off so much. I ruminated a bit about this last year (linked here, if you want to ruminate with me).

(*or Ashlee-Kara, or Ashlee-Kara-John)

When the rain comes tumbling, tumbling down, will you be around?

Nicely sounded "tumblings," but the idea is clichéd.

Then you'll see my greatest gift
Is fallin' down and takin' it
'Cause everything is better when it hurts
My biggest thirst
Is happiness in all kinds of weather
For worse or for better
I have it anyway
But happiness can't last forever
You know there's never pleasure without the pain
Here it comes again

Now this doesn't pull together into any stories, and I'm not feeling its pleasure or pain. Given that Kara's a veteran songsmith, and Ashlee a youngster, one would have expected that Ashlee provided raw ideas, and Kara provided the craft and wisdom that turned them into art. But maybe Ashlee provided a whole hunk of the craft and wisdom as well, with Kara providing some of the ideas, or drawing them forth from Ashlee.

Really, there are some bad lines - way worse than these - on the Platinum Weird album.

Think it's better because in "Come Clean" Kara isn't using "rain" as a simple stand-in for "adversity," which is such a dead metaphor. Instead, rain buffets and cleanses. But actually, my listening to "Come Clean" is now enriched by knowing those Platinum Weird songs, since "adversity" adds something as subtext. E.g.,

Let the rain fall down and wake my dreams
Let it wash away my sanity
'Cause I wanna feel the thunder, I wanna scream
Let the rain fall down, I'm coming clean.

Imagine that the real first line is accompanied by a silent, alternate one:

Let the PAIN come down and wake my dreams

- which might even be what Kara had in mind.

(By the way, I think of Kara as the prime lyricist here, while she and John Shanks combine on the music; but I have no idea if that's true; in Lucy Woodward's account of working with Shanks and with Shelly Pelkin [Dave linked this on last year's thread], everyone seems to be throwing in ideas about everything.)

In general, it wouldn't be a bad idea for most songwriters to stop using weather imagery.

Then you'll see my greatest gift
Is falling down and taking it

How is this any less interesting than "the broken in you"? This is possibly my favorite lyric on the Platinum Weird album--whoever would think of the ability to take a beating as their greatest gift? There's something really striking there, in the double meaning of "gift" especially--submissiveness is her talent, her possession, and submissiveness is what she is offering. And while I agree there are some real clunkers on the album (and because they're mostly clunkers of the "crap, what rhymes with cloud?" variety, I'm going to guess they're all Kara's, although they may very well be Dave's), I also think there are plenty of evocative images. Frank, I believe you posted on last year's thread that "Mississippi Valentine" is one of your least favorites, but I like the photo album quality of it, and I also think "Crying at the Disco" and "When We Met" pull together very well. ("I may have said goodbye, but I never meant goodbye / They were only words, and some words aren't true" is another favorite. I can't think of a sharper way to say "but I didn't mean it!" As opposed to "let the rain come down and wake my dreams," which means...what, exactly?)

Also, the line in "Happiness" is "I'll have it anyway," which I think changes it a lot--it allows for the defiance with which she sings that line. In present tense, it's a shrug: whatever comes along, she's happy. In future tense, and in that tone, it's a challenge: hey, screw you, she's going to have her happiness, just watch.

Actually, overall, I think the thing about Kara writing for Kara is that she relies a lot more on her delivery--probably because she can, and probably because she doesn't have to tell the story of someone else's life. This thread seems to focus a lot on lyrics, which is fine, I love lyrics, but they're not independent of the music or the vocals. I think you can argue that, as text, Kara's lyrics don't read as interesting or as strong as Ashlee's or Hilary's, but together with the music and vocals, many of them are as good or better.

Anyway, nice to meet you all.

I think that Ashlee's a better singer than Kara, even if I'd trust Kara over Ashlee to hit a note dead center at 50 paces. Kara oversings. In fact, I think weak-voiced Lindsay - who pretty obviously models her phrasing after Kara's, and I wouldn't be surprised if she simply followed Kara's demos phrase-for-phrase in "Nobody 'Til You" and "First" - would have done a better job in "Avalanche" and "Somebody To Love," because she wouldn't have been able to bowl those songs over. My favorite moment on Platinum Weird is when Kara quietly goes "Your sorrow too" on "All My Sorrows."

tangentially related - i was thinking the other week about how the 'confessions' video completely cuts out all the "does she mean it? is she faking it? is she 4 real? is she being honest?" crap which is relevant to everyone else in pop music, from teenpop to indie to hip-hop, by virtue of her being a tabloid staple (ie the very thing which stops people taking it seriously). everything in that video is meant, is 4 real, is honest, and we know this because we've already read about it.

And no offense to David Moore, but an insight like: "Of course it would probably kill her music career, which too few people took seriously in the first place, usually because they took it way too seriously." just sounds like psychobabble to me.

My hero story for Ashlee has her writing continually self-analytic, probing, and restless lyrics for continually catchy songs, and dressing really well and really outrageously, and slowly gathering a new audience on her own terms; but in reality I have no clue where she goes next or what models she follows. There don't seem to be any. Dance and r&b aren't really her thing, and these days Singer-Songwriter, Pop Star, and Punkette all seem dumber and duller than she is.

I imagine as these (tablodish) things pile up higher and higher, it becomes harder for a Spears to emancipate herself from the role she's been thrust into. Ashlee can still reinvent herself.

But as far as almost all of this goes...I just don't see any of this happening at all. I do think Lindsay has more options and freedom (in her film career only), and that Ashlee is out in the cold. My main point is that her Disney/kid audience is crucial right now, and the recent tabloid stuff effectively kills her shot at "coming back" on Disney's terms (and, also importantly, that this didn't hurt Britney at all. But she certainly wasn't allowed back in the building -- "Toxic" could have been but wasn't shopped to the RD audience; this is the same company that five years ago could excise "I'm not that innocent" to make Britney OK for the kids...and I don't think they'd have to edit even that in 2004).

Another point I didn't really get to elaborate on is that Britney, by being in the limelight, gets to sidestep the tricky "authentic makeover" bullshit that Xtina just (successfully) went through -- so she gets to remain herself. Not to say that expectations of "authenticity" can't ever lead to great music, but that the expectations are idiotic and Britney transcends it, and so does Lindsay. But Ashlee doesn't, and we'll just have to see what Robert Smith has to offer her.

(If Meryl Streep says she can act, is anyone going to disagree?)

Well, this person disagrees.

Anyway, the Stylus is pretty funny - if not a little obvious. But I didn't catch a criticism of her acting chops. (I also read it during American Idol commercials - so I admit, I'm a little distracted.)

Can you please respect my privacy?" I don't know, LL-- can you please insult my intelligence? I mean, really, if you're going to put it that way, why not just put a "Kick Me I Like Swirlies" sign on the back of those jammies you wore to the last Hilton soirée? Yes, there's a fine line between being noticed and being watched, and a lot of celebrity reportage is just a few slime trails above Penthouse Pet photo captions; and of course no one's nip slips or panty peeks should find their way onto the Internet, but pointing out the injustice of it all isn't going to earn you Good Samaritan kudos or bonus Best Buy Bucks.

From Pfork at the time. The fact that rumors is kind of a fun dance song takes a backseat to the idea that Lindsay is really anguished about the rumors.

With Aly & AJ, I see it going in the other direction. As time goes on, I think they will start to incorporate more humor, lightness, and fun into their music, and phase out the acting. Which is a damned shame because Aly is a really great actress.

But maybe I didn't make my point very well which is that since Aly has more depth as a musician she's probably going to drop acting and since Lindsay has more depth as an actress she'll probably drop the music. Not that they aren't both good at acting and singing.

I'm wondering if part of the problem with Kara is that she has no identity, not as a a celebrity, not as an artist, not as a person. When Ashlee sings "I was stuck inside someone else's life and always second best," we can fill in the blank with the idea of Ashlee--black-sheep little sister, desperate to be seen and heard, because we've been sold that image alongside the songs. When Kara sings "so many nights I've heard you talk in delight about the promised land," we're left with the blank, because what is Kara beyond the song? You said it right there in your Voice review--there's no story to connect to.

Now, when you find out that Kara was raised by a religious, right-wing Republican congressman, does it make "Avalanche" any better? Or at least give it the possibility of being better? I think it does. We've both brought up "Crying at the Disco" as one of the better songs--is it maybe because it's so clearly tied to who Kara is? Maybe what Kara needs is not someone to turn her words and sounds into her words and sounds, but just a her to begin with.

Of course, at a certain point the music needs to speak for itself, and I do think Ashlee's music is more successful in establishing an actual identity--the story of that girl. But I don't think I would understand just how deeply Ashlee is (or wants to be seen as) that girl from the music alone. And then again, Ashlee is the focus of Ashlee's music, whereas Kara is ostensibly not the focus of PW's, so I'm not sure how much we can/should ask for PW's music to have a coherent personal identity.

Anyway, back to replying to your actual post: I don't know if I'd say Ashlee's a better singer. More distinctive, yes, and more contained (in a good way). Same goes for Lindsay and, to a lesser extent, Kelly Clarkson. But there are times when Ashlee sounds like she's struggling to sing bigger (the end of "Say Goodbye"), to the detriment of the song, and I don't think any of Kara's proteges are capable of, say, the eye-rolling sarcasm of "Is it finally gettin' to ya? Hallelujah!"

I do understand the disappointment with the PW album. I love "La La" about as much as you love Autobiography, and there is no "La La" on this album. But I do think it accomplishes more than you give it credit for, and I'd love to change your mind.

"Take seriously" and "earnest" are becoming bizarre, shifting code words on this thread, and I'm not following. I take Lindsay's singing (and what I've seen of her acting) seriously. And I think she's a lot of fun. I take fun seriously.

Lindsay brings lots of humor and enthusiasm to her singing, when she wants to. Talked about this last year here (scroll down to the third entry) and here and here, and talked about her acting here.

Comic acting is just as rich as dramatic acting; in fact, I doubt that there's much difference, since in good comedies the actors are playing it straight - the characters don't know that they're being funny - and allowing the situations to provide the humor. And in Herbie: Fully Loaded, the scenes between Lindsay Lohan and Michael Keaton (playing her dad) are played absolutely seriously, somberly, even, and they have to be or else there's no way to care about the rest of the movie (both she and her dad are undercutting her calling as a stock-car driver, and you have to believe in their reasons and their uncertainty or else there's nothing emotional at stake, and therefore no exhilaration or release provided when the film gets funny).

Saw one episode of "Phil Of The Future," Aly Michalka was on for maybe two minutes total, and she was absolutely incandescent.

When I first saw Freaky Friday, I knew basically nothing about Lohan. Half way through the movie, I was sold--this girl was often wiping the floor with Jamie Lee Curtis, whose no slouch, and doing a better Jamie Lee than Jamie Lee did a Lohan.

Her pratfalls in Mean Girls were brilliant--her delivery of the voice-overs uniquely droll.

The only problem with her in A Prairie Home Companion was that every single person aroud her was at least 30 years older--how could she not seem out of place? And even then, she fully ehld her own against the vets---I got this real sense of her existing within this very well-thought-out chracter space of her own, no small feat considering, again, the competition.

in Bobby--a dire film in every other way--she was the sole element of stillness, of, again, being in that space, that person's skin.

I completely agree with Frank with the Foster/Silence thing. If she gets her shit together, I see no reason for her not to emerge from the teen thing just as Jamie Lee emerged from the slasher queen thing as a highly credible actor.

On that note: I love Lohan's acting. And Frank, I think words like "sincere" or "earnest" or "authentic," when taken with acting, are absolutely absurd. They condescend to the actress (whether it's Lohan or Ali), assuming that her persona is far less fluid than a "real" "talented" actress. Which relates to Lohan's music career too. If an established actor/actress released a poor album (or a poorly received album), we'd feel comfortable saying that they made a misstep - or that the album is far weaker than their acting. But if Lohan is really an overarching persona, and not an actress, than we can't separate the music from the acting.

On that note: I found Lohan's singing unremarkable and unnecessary. I also found her acting excellent, and enjoyed watching every movie she's appeared in that I've had the opportunity to watch. And I don't feel one feeling necessarily has anything to do with the other.

Now I'm gonna go lie down in the bathroom and moan pitifully. This again has little to do with my enjoyment of Lohan's performances - except in the extant that I may even now be delusional. But that's a bad road to go down.

I take Lindsay's music seriously too (whatever we want to mean by "take seriously"), I just get the distinct impression that she doesn't seem to care about it too much one way or the other. And unless she shows that she genuinely wants it and she's willing to work her butt off for it, it'll never succeed. That's how JLo successfully made the switch.

For what it's worth, what I was trying to say before (even though what actually I wrote made no sense -- hopefully the change clarifies it) was that very few people do either of these things with Lindsay. They don't take Lindsay's singing or acting seriously (like in the review I linked; it's not so much that Lindsay's a bad actress, but that she doesn't deserve to be considered as an actress at all!) but they also take her, Lindsay the celebrity, VERY seriously, arms crossed, and they don't assume that she's funny or smart or self-aware enough not to be completely literal in, say, "Rumors." Or a magazine interview. "Confessions" is different, but it also isn't a representative example of her music and still needs to be understood in the context of her other work (and, like Lex said, the fact that the tabloid stuff was part of that context in this case can complicate reception of it, too).

haha, i know what you're saying, but this is ironic because lindsay's vocal srategy is heavily earnest, even when she's being funny - on the second album it's heavily cathartic and, as she tells us, RAW. (more playful on the first album.) whereas j-lo's vocals are the epitome of botherd-about-this can-we-hurry-up-my-car-is-waiting detachment. (both are v good at what they do.)

they also take her, Lindsay the celebrity, VERY seriously

people have odd attitudes towards celebrity - it seems to be treated in common parlance as some sort of prize, which one has to prove oneself for, by either obvious hard graft or obvious talent, and people like lindsay lohan, paris hilton, and jade goody (recently-disgraced-due-to-vile-bullying-and-racism uk reality tv star) are castigated by somehow being celebrities while sailing merrily and uncaringly through a series of parties and public appearances.

("singing teenpop songs" never seems to equate to "obvious talent" unless the singer has xtina-level pipes; lohan's acting DOES but she doesn't do enough of it) (i cannot believe i have yet to see mean girls)

And, for me, LL has only had three and a half good roles. (Granted, I haven't seen A Prairie Home Companion yet.)

Just My Luck was awful--the screenplay was the culprit. But even then, Lohan totally, almos recklessly, invested herself in it.

It was rather charming when she went on jay Leno and did everything she could do NOT to talk about it--her whole vibe screamed 'contractual obligation' and 'God, thos ine sucked'.

country

country w/ recurrents

mainstream top 40

mainstream top 40 w/ recurrents

Christian AC

Christian AC w/ recurrents

mainstream urban

mainstream urban w/ recurrents

alternative

alternative w/ recurrents

AC overall

AC overall w/ recurrents

CHR/pop (These are now labeled "Top 40" and are basically the same as the "mainstream top 40 lists," which are also labeled "Top 40" but have slightly different totals)

CHR/pop w/ recurrents(ditto)

CHR Rhythmic

CHR Rhythmic w/ recurrents

active rock

active rock w/ recurrents

Limitations of these numbers: Obviously, they only take into account stations that report to Mediabase, and the rankings are based on total plays without regard to the size of the listenership or what time of day a song is played (though info on that is included in the chart).

The basic Mediabase URL is http://w2.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess.

For KDIS in Los Angeles, click on "7-Day Reports," click on "Station Playlists," tick "Station" rather than "Market," then type in "KDIS" and hit "Go," then click on "7-Day Playlist" on the right. Radio Disney has 51 affiliates, I think, so multiply each song's number by 51 to get national plays.

If you want to know whois playing a song, find it on some list and then click on the song. For instance, if you go to the "mainstream top 40" list you see that Avril Lavigne's "Keep Holding On" is 25th with 2,134 plays. If you click on "Keep Holding On," you get a list of the 50 stations in the genre ("mainstream top 40") that are playing it the most. She's doing pretty well in Salt Lake City, Raleigh, and Wilkes-Barre. (If you want to see who's playing her in different formats, choose another format.)

"Celebrity" being a modern-day analogue to what "juvenile delinquent" was in the the '50s, perhaps? (E.g., mainstream culture didn't take rock 'n' roll seriously as music but did take it seriously as a potential cause of vandalism and crime. And now pop - with the aid of reality TV - is a potential cause of celebrity.)

Forget where it was (Poptimists?) but there was a discussion about artists coding male/female, and about the new crop of emo rock stars trying to have it both ways (or something)...anyway, I think the idea was floated, or at least I took from it, that Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton were the only two unapologetic rock stars to make any kind of impact in 2006 (Lindsay maybe tail-end of '05?), with Britney on the back-burner since it's been a while since she recorded anything.

*Me.

Paris and Lindsay are too apologetic. Rock stars don't play dumb and then insist they're smart, or confess to eating disorders and then take it all back. Britney comes closest to the kind of iconic, defiant rock stardom you're talking about, Dave, in that she seems to really not give a shit.

Not that I really value the rock star archetype. I'm just saying. I'm also saying that I have erred by helping to prolong a discussion that is way past its sell-by date.

Who are these "people" who don't want to Lindsay do that thing? Somebody bought her album. I'd also argue that plenty of people don't want to hear Mick Jagger, either--is that relevant to whether or not he's a rock icon?

Britney's apology was not really an apology. "Ha ha, sorry I didn't wear panties, y'all! But seriously, I'm just gonna go fuckin' crazy for a while. Laterz."

2. What was more popular, dance-pop Lohan or emo Lohan, is my point.

3. Check the record, yo. Just neglecting your children doesn't make you Courtney Love.

2. So if she's not popular when acting rock-y, she's not actually acting rock-y? Also, if you close your eyes, people can't see you. It's true!

3. Yeah, but neglecting your kids and getting lots of plastic surgery does. Dropping a baby is TOTALLY rock-n-roll, dude!

Vying with Stone for Worst Actress will be repeat offender Jessica Simpson (nominated this year for EMPLOYEE OF THE MONTH), teen-idol (and terrible role model) Lindsay Lohan in JUST MY LUCK, newcomer Kristanna Loken in BLOODRAYNE and spelling-challenged risible siblings Hilary and Haylie Duff in MATERIALS GIRLS.

What I heard, I liked. Though I'm not sure what makes her special -- didn't we also make the Arctic Monkeys famous? Or is Youtube more special than Myspace?

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2007/01/25/youtube-phenom-mia-rose-has-her-thorns/

The Stone writeup on Mia Rose is coyer and more irritating than she is, but in a dull journalistic way that tries to hide its tracks. "In the last few weeks, vlogs from Mia Rose, a disturbingly well-packaged 18-year-old singer-songwriter, have become some of the most-viewed videos on YouTube. Rose is a well-scrubbed but coy girl-next-door with decent guitar skills, a welcome-to-Hollywood worthy voice and a knack for bearing her midriff without seeming trashy (harder than it looks)." "Obviously this girl is manipulating the YouTube system for her own gain, but is there anything wrong with that?" Well, Elizabeth, I don't know, you're the one who called her "disturbingly well-packaged." Why don't you tell us why you think there's something wrong with it, rather than suggesting that there is and then covering your ass by rhetorically implying there isn't, and not giving a single reason one way or another? "And what do you think of the tunes?" Well, Elizabeth, what do you think of them? Pretend social analysis, pretending to rise above the slime sell while being a dull little slime sell all its own. Journalism seems full of this.

(Writers of "Lose You" are Linda Sundblad, Tobias Karlsson, Alexander Kronlund, Klas Åhlund, the last of whom is in Teddybears STHLM and produced a lot of the most recent Robyn album. Producer of "Lose You" is Tobias Karlsson.)

Anyway, I enjoyed a couple of the songs that were posted, and didn't like a few others. I think there is definitely something charismatic about the girl - very sincere. And part of why her music is interesting is because of that personality. And I think that her circumventing of the traditional artist/audience divide (which isn't unique, but nonetheless) is very charming. Though I think the question of "is she for real?" is important, just not for the reasons that RS states. I think it's important because a lot of her appeal is her authenticity - not because it's undermining expectations if she's not. (And if it turns out she's not 'real,' whatever that means, she'll be interesting for that reason instead.)

Posing pirates, pink perky riots
Big D.P. bottles about to pop
Flamboyant peacocks, straight out of detox
And total chaos, it never stops... right?
--Linda Sundblad "Pretty Rebels"

If RS asked the first question outright, would you still consider it muddled?

If it is a marketing plan by a major label (or something) it was pretty poorly thought out since Youtube tracks the number of videos you watch, making inflation transparent to anyone patient enough to compile a montage of it happening (that's a link from Idolator, less nasty write-up than the RS one). So I can't say that the "anti-manufactured" tone is justified, but it is justifiable to say that whoever's aiding her popularity is doing it by creating the false appearance of grassroots democratic consensus. I'll bet it offends people as vote-tampering as much as it might as a "just another coporate manufactured pop star" story.

kokokokoii (12 hours ago)
no matter what was really going out there, these are what possible to happen in the future:

1)She is a cheater, and will never release any album.
2)Her is talent and has a attractive voice. There will be a company to contact her soon.

The reason for one to subscribe is because of her singing not the numbers or ratings. Why you wasted you time doing this?

It was the commenters, not Elizabeth, who brought up the dummy sites and the inflated subscriptions (unless Elizabeth was using her code words to try to suggest those, as well). I think that the - good - question she's trying to ask isn't "Is Mia diy or is she corporate?" but rather "No matter whether Mia is an actress playing a part, a singer coached on how to present herself, or someone who's in charge of her own presentation - or is even guilelessly being 'herself' - what's wrong with her trying to appeal to an audience?" This is a good question because sometimes there is something wrong, and also there's a deep culture-wide uneasiness with anything being straight-up appealing, as if pleasing an audience contaminates you.

As to the first point (whether there's sometimes something wrong), I think there's something wrong with the way Elizabeth Goodman is trying to appeal to her readers, so I'm not averse in principle to claims that there's something wrong with how Mia Rose is trying to appeal to viewers. As to the second point (a culture-wide uneasiness, that I share), that's what a good deal of my book is about, and so I hope that if you find my posts appealing you'll go out and buy my book (I get a dollar for every copy sold, and I need the money).

There's no inherent problem with the question "Is she real?" The problems arise because the reasons given to justify the answer "No" raise a whole bunch of questions themselves, and most people are intellectually lazy and don't ask the follow-up questions. But the problem isn't with the original question.

Another good question is why the question "Is she real?" keeps popping up throughout pop culture. If you dislike the question "Is she real?" you nonetheless will want to ask why the question is so persistent. Why are people asking it?

If someone claims that the Monkees are phonies because "they don't write their own songs" [incredibly, people still say this], the obvious follow-up question would be, "well, if I consider the Monkees fake for not writing their own songs, why don't I think the Animals and Aretha Franklin - who've hit with songs by the very same songwriters the Monkees used - are also fake?" (I've never in my life heard someone argue that the Animals and Aretha Franklin were fake for not writing "It's My Life" and "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" and "Don't Bring Me Down" and "Natural Woman.") In the mid-Sixties an answer to the follow-up question might have been, "Aretha's real because she's black and sings the music soul; the Animals are real because they come on like hoods" - these responses, in their time, would not have been dumb at all, but are so problematic that they'd have inevitably provoked further thought.

THEY NEVER PLAY WEBSTAR F. YOUNG B'S "CHICKEN NOODLE SOUP."

No promotion at all for "Play With Fire" and now none for "With Love" either. I'm hoping, and choosing to believe, that they are waiting until it is closer to the release of the album before they start to push the songs hard. Maybe the sound of it is just so anti-American pop that they are just going to punt it in America.

I know.

other things wannabe pop stars and record companies can and do in fact do do: write their own reviews of their first records and send them to fanzines under pesudonyms (monster magnet did this, and i salute them for it; then again, monster magnet probably flunk every "authenticity" test you could come up with) ... "leak" their own records to the internet (pretty much every record company does this to one degree or another) ... request their own records on radio or anywhere else requests are taken (again, the whole industry can stand up and plead guilty to that one) ... acquire lots of "friends" in myspace who aren't really your "friends" and may not even have a clue who you are ... and so on and so forth. if mia rose is better at playing this game than other wannabe pop stars, then more power to her. in the end, either she's got it or she doesn't (i haven't heard a note yet), but what do a few thousand dummy accounts on youtube have to do with anything?

One thing that's interesting about Radio Disney is that, despite the fact that they could completely ignore their audience and plug whatever they feel like -- and I guess I have no proof they don't until I can figure out what they could possibly gain from keeping Hampton or Cha Cha or Crazy Frog in the countdown without popular support (maybe Disney owns the rights or something?) -- they do seem to actually count the votes. But they transparently stack the deck in just about every other way they possibly can.

Actually, one really interesting thing going on - particularly contrasting Burgess + Porcelana. Burgess lays it all out in the audition - her narrative is really out there. She's the hard luck girl, whose family isn't standing behind her. Porcelana keeps a little more back - because you know she's gotten here also against the odds, but it's not laid out there. Something is held back. You can hear it in Porcelana's voice, too. It sounds wearied - like it's been wrestling with life. That's why I'm rooting for Porcelana as my number one pick so far (but it'll definitely be an underdog rooting).

So yeah -- you might notice that all these people are from NY. That's cause... hometown pride. Heh. Actually, it's mostly because of Porcelana - who I've been searching for her name and only found tonight. So if you don't watch any of the others, watch hers. It's really great.

I'm on track five, which is the first one that makes me shrug, though it's not a bad dance track. In fact, as it's fading out, I'm feeling it more, a warm after-image. But now track six is really making me shrug. Slow jam. Doesn't have anything insinuatingly catchy, like, say, Ciara's "Promise" does. McPhee does seem anonymous, which isn't necessarily a criticism. Track seven, "Dangerous," is passionate, and I'm picking up. Chords of the verse initially reminded me of "Happy Together"/"Wild World"/"It's A Sin"/"Come Into My Arms," but they don't hold onto the pattern, unfortunately. Or maybe it wasn't there in the first place. Uh oh, Track eight starts off with sensitive piano. Her voice is warm, however. Something slightly Scottish sounding in the chorus. Or maybe that's in my imagination. Haven't heard a great song yet. Um, track nine, she's suddenly trying to be Kelis. A club banger. Also a shrugger. Her anonymity is going to hurt sales. Enjoying this overall, somewhat, but haven't come close to caring. Constant play of a hit could change that. Track ten, "Better Off Alone," warmth: early '90s mainstream r&bish slow pop may be her strength.

(Both the Natalie Cole and the Clint Black albums are entitled Love Songs. Unless AOL made a goof.)

on the other hand, advertising a concert as an evening of music by the jam and then standing by silently as your own fans trade tickets for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and then playing exactly 10 jam songs as part of a 27-song set -- i'm talking to you, ex-teen-popper paul weller -- that is wrong and evil and i hope he woke up this morning feeling like the dick that he is. i didn't go because i hate that kind of nostalgia as much as weller told the fans at last night's show that he hates nostalgia. but i'm not the one going around trying to drum up interest in my shitty little u.s. tour by lying about what i'm going to play. may he never sell out a show again.

"Anyone from the first hearing of Amy belt out a lyric with such rich soulful intensity knows that this woman is not from this era. She is effortless in her delivery and I love your comment about “confident without any obnoxiousness.” It is this quality that makes her work hauntingly genuine. Good article Lauren. Be very grateful for this opportunity to review genius like Amy. She as well as you are being watched very closely by this fan. Take care."

The comment was written by someone named Valton Morgan.

"Every step you take... every move you make..."

I love American Idol but just can't stomach the auditions. For fun, here are my favorite contestants by season. This is based entirely on what they did on the show, not what they did afterwards:

1 - Kelly
2 - Didn't really care for anybody
3 - JPL
4 - Jessica Sierra (boo, America!), Carrie Underwood
5 - McPhee

Winehouse loves the dramatics and borderline creepiness of 1960s girl groups, of which "He Hit Me " is an extreme example. It's an influence you can hear in the tambourines and innocent snaps of her new album, Back to Black. "My favorite band of all time is probably the Shangri-La's," says Winehouse. "I love them because they were kids, and it's so emotional. Loads of sound effects, loads of lyrics like, 'My boyfriend's so fine and I'm gonna kill myself for him' and ‘I'm gonna die' and oh, I love it, I love it."

The Shangri-La's sound oppressed by love, bound by expectations, suicidal in their devotion. It's the difficult parts about them that informed Frank.

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0704,linden,75600,22.html

2. Re: Michelle Branch - Any teenpop thread opinions on Ms. Branch? I, for one, have always found her inconsistent and have never been a big fan of any of her albums. But, she does have a great knack for kicking out some truly lovely singles (e.g. "All You Wanted", "Breathe", "Everywhere"). "Everywhere" is quite possibly my very favorite single of the decade to this point; it's in a cluster of about 5 or 6 songs that would have a reasonable claim to that title.

Carrie Underwood (American Idol = teenpop automatically, right?) scores the Number 5 single with "Before He Cheats" (shoulda been #1!) and scores as the #3 female vocalist and (incorrectly) as the #3 new artist. Kellie Pickler is the #7 new artist. And there've been plenty of country-folk trying out on American Idol this year too, so...

(Many Xhuxk thoughts on Taylor Swift over on rolling country.)

let's just end with the song of the day for December 6, 2006, Taylor Swift's "Tim McGraw." The subject matter's been run into the ground (memories of first love, coming of age), but her words are exceptionally precise and evocative - no line in particular, just the way the details pile up: little black dress, box hidden under her bed, etc. "September saw a month of tears/And thanking God that you weren't here/To see me like that." Very skillful, makes not-quite-in-the-vernacular phrasing ("saw a month of tears") feel normal in context (ditto for "the moon like a spotlight on the lake"). She's canny in balancing wistfulness and self-assertion. She hopes that when the boy thinks of Tim McGraw he thinks of her favorite song. She leaves a letter on his doorstep to make sure he does.

let's just end with the song of the day for December 19, 2006, Taylor Swift's "Tim McGraw," which I already did a couple of weeks ago, but the song keeps getting richer and richer the more I hear it. She uses the word "bittersweet," and she's not kidding. The first time she sings the chorus, "When you think Tim McGraw, I hope you think my favorite song," it means "I hope you have warm memories of me," but by song's end it also means "I hope I haunt you, fucker, the way you haunted me. Sincerely, your discarded girlfriend, Taylor." It doesn't abandon the first meaning, just layers another one on top.

But this is what I wrote on a comments thread in my livejournal:

Best new lyrics I heard all year, I think. They balance so perfectly that anything I say probably overstates the mood one way or another; but in the first chorus when she goes "When you think Tim McGraw, I hope you think my favorite song" it's simply sweet, but by the third chorus those words carry hurt and bitterness and a whole expanse of sadness, and a hint of aggression, as well (as if to say, "may that song haunt you," though that overstates it) - while retaining the sweetness.

let's just end with the song of the day for December 16, 2006, the Wreckers' "Stand Still, Look Pretty." "You might think it's easy being me/Just stand still, look pretty," sing a couple of gorgeous exteenpoppers. With looks like that they don't know if they have a right to their distress, but they're falling apart anyway. Interesting premise, which they don't take anywhere, so the lyrics feel whiny and empty. But with a quiet rasp in the voice and with the melody hanging around an irresolute "mi" note, the sound delivers some of the sadness that the words aren't up to.

(You can find my MySpace blog here.)

I read this as saying that with Mia Rose, even with Paris Hilton, the critique isn't of the music, but rather of the perceived inauthenticity. I definitely hear in arguments against Paris this assumption that the performance "will be at fault in other ways," even if the Critic can't point out what ways those will be. Obviously this differs from legitimate critiques, in that its merely the assumption of flaw, not the actual perception of it. So Mia Rose isn't who she says she is, so there must be something wrong with what's she doing. She isn't exactly who she purports to be (ie: the cute, young, charismatic girl unattached to corporation who inspired a following on YouTube) because she actually is attached to a corporation. So throwing that image into question assumes there is something wrong across the board. Even if you can't put your finger on it.

Obviously this isn't a justifaction of the critique, but rather an explanation of where it comes from. I'd still much rather hear someone speak directly to the music.

Possibly the most Cougaresque song on Taylor Swift's album (also my favorite at the moment, and the hardest rocking track I've taken note of so far, and a great revenge song, and maybe a good dance song too) is "Picture to Burn," where she lights things (namely a photo of her ex I guess) on fire. So it's her "Kerosene," obviously. And its arson sounded especially swell this morning in the random CD changer, seque-ing straight into Lily Allen telling some club dude "If you play with fire you're gonna get burned" in her probably most blatant disco homage (even though its beat always reminds me of "Abracadabra" by Steve Miller) "Friday Night." (And the melody in her "Littlest Things" sounds exactly like Michael Jackson's "Human Nature," by the way; not sure whether anybody on either side of the pond has noticed that before.) Also, oh yeah, most risque moment on Taylor's album I've noticed so far is the one in "Our Song" where she says "He's got one hand on the steering wheel and one hand on my....[notable pause]...heart." Charlie Feathers ("One Hand Loose") would be proud. (And oh yeah, she doesn't keep him out past curfew per se' in that song, it turns out; he's just talking slow to her on the phone 'cause it's late and his mama don't know. Pretty sexy.)
-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 25th, 2007.

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...though sometimes that line doesn't hit me as particularly sexy or risque (or especially paused) at all--just, um, regular. (even more regular but sometimes seemingly more so is the line in that other song where she says she's "never been on the outside." could mean a lot, if outside of society is where she wants to be. but i'm hardly convinced it is. apparently it's just {"just"} a breakup song.)
most country tune on lily allen's CD is seemingly "alfie," a sweet slowish one with alpine polka oompah beat. right now it reminds me of abba (who had verging-on-country moments themselves, of course.)

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 26th, 2007.

Unless the most country tune [on lily allen's album] is "Knock 'Em Out," with its blatant Professor Longhair second-line Mardi Gras piano rolls at the start. (Has anybody pointed that out? It's really cool. And for that matter has anybody pointed out that the Lady Sovereign album has a track that sounds like classic Les Rita Mitsouko? I haven't been paying attention to the discussion, which always seems to devolve into dumb horseshit about how "real" such artists are. What about their music?)

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 27th, 2007.

God I love "Picture To Burn" by Taylor Swift so much. What a catchy, rocking song. It sounds a lot like some other bubble-country gal hit from the past couple years, but I can't place it: Jessica Andrews? Cyndi Thompson? Meredith Edwards? Or maybe Rebbeca Lynn Howard, "Pink Flamingo Kind of Love" or something? One of those people, I think. (Which reminds me, I keep meaning to research this: Did Alecia Elliott ever make a whole album, or just her great "I'm Diggin' It" single? I should just look it up, but I'm lazy today.)

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 27th, 2007.

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(and a couple other cool things about "picture to burn" are taylor's "burn baby burn" disco inferno section and that out-of-nowhere mandolin-or-whatever break toward the end, which recalls the fiddles coming out of nowhere in britney's wacky hoedown-crunk ying yang twins collaboration "i've got that boom boom" a few years back.)
-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 27th, 2007.

picture to burn really pisses me off, because it does that whole gay as threatening to masculinity libel thing, i mean its a cute song, but that one line really ruins ti for
-- pinkmoose (anthony.easto...), January 28th, 2007.

The line in "Picture To Burn" Anthony's referring to, which I hadn't noticed because I rarely read lyric sheets unless somebody is holding a pistol to my head (since it's cheating, see) (or I'm just lazy, same difference) and I was busu getting off on the great fast rhythmic rush of words in that first verse instead, is: "State the obvious, I didn't get my perfect fantasy/I realize you love yourself more than you could ever love me/So go and tell your friends that I'm obsessive and crazy/That's fine, I'll tell mine you're gay." Which is...interesting. And may well be libel (well, if he wasn't gay, that is) (sung it'd be slander, but we're talking about a lyric sheet here remember.) Yet I'm not entirely convinced it challenges his masculinity. Off the bat, it reminds me of Tony Basil's "Mickey" or Josie Cotton's "Johnny Are You Queer." I'll have to ponder it some more before I decide if I'm offended.

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 28th, 2007.

Taylor Swift album sounds great. Apparently Frank wasn't fibbing. So far my favorite is the song where she keeps a boy out past curfew.

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 21st, 2007.

So I assume Frank or Jon Caramanica or somebody must have pointed this out sometime when I wasn't really paying close attention, but it's totally ingenious how the first and last songs on Taylor Swift's albums are actually about themselves, to wit:
"When you think 'Tim McGraw,' I hope you think my favorite song" (from "Tim McGraw")

"I grabbed a pen and an old napkin and I wrote down...'Our Song'"
(from "Our Song").

Is that a historical first?

"A Place in the World" is the most shemo-teenpop-sounding Swift song I've noticed so far, and also my least favorite (though it's fine, really, just not one of her best). "Should've Said No"/"Mary's Song (Oh My My My)"/"Our Song" at the end of the album totally kill.

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 22nd, 2007

A little late, but I just remembered an anecdote about J-Lo being the only person ever besides the queen to (demand to) be driven up right next to the BBC building so she wouldn't have to walk to the door.

But it's not like she's a Lily Allen clawing out the fellow's eyes. She's coming across as young and vulnerable, more sad than bitter - deeply sad when she's sad, but also bright and alive, ready for what's next.

Am I reading this correctly?

From the Interview with Linda if you can get past the interviewer.

Other fun facts:

"I was an albino when I was a child. ...Sometimes I look like a [Swedish word for "sausage with dots on it"]."

Last name pronounced "SOOND-blod," not "Sun Blade."

Interviewer's never heard of Max Martin when he plays "Bimbo." (Radio Dude: "So he's the talent behind Kelly Clarkson?" Linda: "Well, yes." ....grrrrr)

"The teenagers are mostly girls...I get messages like 'I listened to your song and now I don't want to kill myself,' you know, really deep things. Over 25, they're mostly men."

"Most of [the album] I've been writin' with a Swedish guy called Tobias...he took me here in his car." (No more info on Tobias, darn.)

"I like to tease people a little bit. I don't want to say 'fuck you' -- I just did it -- I just want to...tease people a little bit. P!nk is doing it good."

Linda: "I'm not saying I don't drink, I'm not an angel all the time...but the world is so fucked up today."
Dude: "Paris Hilton's got an album! That's how fucked up the world is!"
Linda: "That's fucked up. That's fucked up. I have to say though, she's kinda funny. I mean, she's makin' it! That's crazy."
Dude: "For it to be successful, I'm like does anyone in the world have a fuckin' brain?"

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

I definitely like the first McPhee single, "Over It," the "Too Little Too Late" soundalike that's written by Josh Alexander, Billy Steinberg, and Ruth-Anne Cunningham, who wrote "Too Little Too Late." Again, McPhee's anonymity pulls the song down (compared to "Too Little Too Late"), though I wouldn't call JoJo so unanonymous herself; but JoJo's song has more ache when it's aching and more zing when it's piercing.

Also like the penned-by-Kara-DioGuardi-all-by-her-lonesome "Home" ("Home" and "Over It" were two of those first four tracks that had misled me into getting excited about the McPhee album.) It does sound very DioGuardi, like Platinum Weird's "Mississippi Valentine"; is a show melody that has swells and troughs but doesn't make you seasick; warm-glowing-sunset piano-n-strings, gratitude in the lyrics, a trace of sadness that's in the melody but not in the words - well, the sadness is suggested by the words: what she's found with the guy is something she'd never found before, implying a lot of sadness in earlier pre-wonderful-guy times. "It's hard to see beautiful, oh it's hard to see beautiful in your own eyes, but you make me beautiful for the very first time." That's very skillful, three different bits of information with the three different "beautifuls," and if it's sappy I don't mind the sappiness - except that this theme was done ten times more effectively on Ashlee's "Pieces Of Me," with pacing and detail and drama and convincing wonder (he puts up with my shit and then he patiently brings me to orgasm!), not to mention the wonderful juxtaposition of fading out at the start and fading into his arms at the end. And though McPhee's singing is flawless and doesn't have Kara's sometimes irritating overclomp, it's still missing whatever it is that McPhee seems to be missing. I wouldn't mind this on the radio but won't find myself compulsively listening for it.

I do like the second "a" in Katharine.

Dave, more Mad Doll (or MaD DoLL, whatever) here. Skip the intro and click the music link.

Q: In what ways are you similar or different to your character, Sharpay?
A: I am not as sarcastic or a diva.

But what a talker!

Interestingly, as far as I can tell, there's nothing "inauthentic" about Paris Hilton - at least not in relation to the album; she's never made claims for herself or for the album that are untrue. But I do get the sense that the haters want to challenge her authenticity, even while having no idea what they might mean by "authenticity."

(Why I prefer the word "real" to the word "authentic": For some reason, in using the former term, people are less likely to evade their adjectival responsibility to say what "real" modifies. They're more likely to say "she's not a real _____.")

Ashley Tisdale's album is streamed at the AOL Listening Party for free. I am listening to it now, will report back on my thoughts after I'm done.

4 new songs from Jordan Pruitt's album are available for play at the myspace for Levosia Entertainment:

"Waiting for You" is a slow tempo acoustic number, more along the lines of "Outside Looking In", except way more boring. Jordan needs some lovin!

"Waiting for the Weekend" is the Target bonus track. Disneyfied R&B lite, consistent with her most recent songs. With a slight Cheetah-esque latin flair though, in the guitar sound, percussion, and horns. Like "Waiting for You" very yawn-worthy.

"Miss Popularity" is the best of the four. Lite-R&B again, but a nice melody. Lyrics talking about a popular girl, not much going on there. But a catchy tune. Probably the second best Jordan track I've heard, behind "Outside Looking In"

Finally, "Over It" is acoustic guitar based kiddie R&B as well, with some orchestral swells, etc. Very generic.

I'm getting less and less excited about this album the more time goes by.

Er, "you can be blunt." (No, she hasn't gone gangsta.)

Bonus ranking of 2007 teenpop "Over It"s

1. Katharine McPhee
2. Ashley Tisdale
3. Jordan Pruitt

I liked "Miss Popularity" as well, but it didn't make me hit replay immediately like "Over It" did.

I took Greg's word for it on the other two Pruitt songs (or rather, I'll wait for the CD to hear them).

A little underwhelmed by Ashley Tisdale, but the first few songs are really great! The first one, "So Much for You," might be my favorite. The ballads are awful, especially "Love Me for Me" which just goes to show that Ashlee could kick Ashley's ass. (Which one of these did Kara write?) I think it peters out around the sorta Lou Bega-sounding one, "Not Like That," which is a "jealous, bitch?" track with no teeth. So Paris could kick her ass, too. "Over It" is closest to bubble-Britney (haven't heard the other "Over It"s but I really like this one), but, yeah, Britney could kick her ass. And Lindsay'd kick her ass on principle for being such a goody goody. She's older than LL, too! That might make her the first Disney star to successfully and uneventfully weather the over-21 transition by default.

Ha.

(Allmusic.com doesn't list full writers credits and I'm not having much luck with Google, but Shelly Peiken (!) wrote or cowrote the boring "We'll Be Together," and Kara cowrote the likable "Be Good To Me." Need to learn more about J.R. Rotem, who keeps showing up on songs I like, this time "He Said, She Said." My favorite is "Not Like That," with Tisdale as cowriter, but I can't get any other credits. Storch is a producer on at least one track, my guess either "Be Good To Me" or "Not Like That." The Matrix did the pretty good "So Much For You." As for Diane Warren...)

So Ashley kicks Buster Poindexter's ass.

Tisdale is my favorite thing on the Suite Life of Zach + Cody, cause I can't stand those twins.

Strongly agree (though I like Brenda Song a lot too). In fact, I don't think there are any current Disney shows that I really enjoy. Hannah Montana the best, but still below the level of Disney's best work.

Yes, and it's therefore a conflicted song, since musically it's fundamentally a club track, it's there for struttin' and bumpin' and showing off, especially those gorgeous bouncing chorus beats: "All the girls in the club got their eyes on me/I can tell by their look that they want to be/be HOT HOT HOT like that/But it's NOT NOT no it's NOT like that."

But it is like that, of course, 'cause she is hot like that, even if she then claims that she's not that girl and it's not her world.

Wonder why she/they think there's a conflict between being the same blood and bone as everyone else and being hot and special.

I could accuse her of bad faith, trying to have her glamour and shun it too, but I think the track makes a case for both sides of her conflict, and she sounds good doing it.

so even if they are completely detached from the process, they are still living and dying by it.

But I think Ashley and Paris (sitcom?) will both do OK whether or not their albums succeed. The stakes are actually quite low for them! Ashley has a giant cross-platform safety net and Paris has being Paris, which is a 24/7 kinda job.

It's incredible - like she's finally ditched all the precious: I'm a little punk rocker - in favor of a much more teenpop approach to relationships. So where Sk8tr Boi was about how her relationships weren't conventional (they had emancipated themselves from the highschool set and were touring professionally) this is set in the standard context of boyfriend -girlfriends. But in doing so, it's the most punk song I've ever heard her sing. It reminds me of Blondie in terms of investing the mundane with attitude.

"Hey, hey, you, you, I don't like your girlfriend. Hey, hey, you, you, I think you need a new one," is far more aggressive. In contrast to Sk8r, where she steals the boy away from his old girlfriend is completely overlooking in favor of the larger tension (he's great, and you missed your chance), here she's actively stealing him. And the opening: Hey, hey, you, you, is almost like a faster: "Ai, Oh, Let's go," without the beat between the noise ("Hey" "Oh") and the narrative ("You, you" "Let's go"). So she's editing out the Ramone's pause in favor of thrusting herself forward. There's huge amounts of pose in here - down to the hand-clapping, which almost sounds as though she applauding herself as she sings. Or maybe even the Stones, singing: "Hey, hey, you, you get off of my cloud," which is probably the more obvious touchstone. Which is perfect! Because she's aggressively pulling you in like the Stone's song chases you away. It's the same attitude, but used to different means.

"Ok fine I want you mine you're so delicious. I think about you all the time you're so addictive. Don't you know what I can do to make you feel alright? (Alright, alright, alright)" Combining the speedy breathlessness of the first two statements, which the echoing 'alright' of the third, it's as though Avril is coming overwhelming the target (and us) by pounding us over and over with the Possibility of Her. By the time it gets to "alright, alright, alright," it sounds like we're responding to the song ourself (also through Avril's voice) agreeing to her. She's puppeting both the predator and the prey - so that she never has to fail.

And then the song launches into the greatest thing I've heard - certainly this year and possibly last as well. "Don't pretend I think you know I'm damn precious / And hell yeah, I'm the motherfucking princess / I can tell you like me too and you know I'm right. (alright, alright, alright)" She simultaneously needs this guy, and doesn't need him at all. She's fine without him - sneering: "You know I'm damn precious." - but she's only saying it because it'll let her get him. And when she sings "I'm the motherfucking princess," she completely slays the entire Paris Hilton album. Just the implicit contradiction of using the word "motherfucking" while describing herself as a "princess" is completely honest, jarring, confusing, and refreshing. It means that a "princess" can use the word "motherfucking." It also means she has a sense of humor about being a "princess." It also means that she's a "princess" /because/ she uses words like "motherfucking," which makes her "precious" which she also understands.

This is thus far my favorite song of 2007. And I predict it'll be in the top 5 if not at the top 1 by the end of the year. I can't imagine anything displacing it. It's much better than the Veronica's 4eva - which was near the top of my list last year.

Just the amount packed into those lines in terms of language V. action, and how pop music mitigates that divide - blows me completely away. I'm smitten.

Also like D4L's "Tatted Up," which we might as well talk about here, since the Rolling Snap Thread had become a silly bore last I looked.

Idolator says that "Avril allegedly wrote the song with Dr. Luke"; doesn't reveal the source of the allegation.

Today meaning "Feb. 5" as well as the first hours of "Feb. 6." Good night.

Also, instead of focussing on the chords and musical backdrop to be the thrust as in some of her previous tracks, this one really works the impact of vocal layering and how they strip the song back and let it stand. Eg, the "In a second you'll be wrapped around my finger/ 'Cuz I can, cuz I can do it better" when the second repetition kicks in, it's fuelled by the shift up (a key? not sure of specific technical term) of the vocal, rather than chords as we might expect from her, and then the "Hey you/ No way" layers stand again without much of a musical backdrop. It's definitely the most musically sparse track I've heard from her, but it really works for me because of the bratty enthusiasm the cheerleader chants evoke.

And when she sings "I'm the motherfucking princess," she completely slays the entire Paris Hilton album.

I think that line is terrible, but how does it even compare to the Paris album? Paris is the motherfucking princess, but that isn't really what the album's all about.

xpost

And before someone rubs my nose in "Nothing in This World" (I can do what she can do so much better), I'd argue that the song is much more complex than that, as much about the longing as the boyfriend-stealing. Whereas you get everything you need to know in "motherfuckin' princess"...and she kinda spoils that one early, doesn't she? Megan McCauley lets the tension build a little before she shows her hand (and then she gets shy again in the next section, which does something similar to the Avril build-up with a harmony instead of a higher-pitched shout "maybe we could do something that sometimes leads to other things").

xpost

Have you read this take on Paris yet? I don't think the album (after the first three tracks) is particularly ironic in the way you're suggesting (deja vu, think I said that last year, too), and that you have to project wink-wink into "Heartbeat" or "Screwed" or "Not Leaving without You" or even "Nothing in This World," in the same way I'm probably projecting humorlessness onto the new Avril (except I do think it's kinda one-note when it could be like one-and-a-half note).

But the palpable shift back to undergroundist values has been facilitated by the fact that overground pop is not coming up with the goods at the moment. Oh, you still get lone loonies claiming merit for Paris Hilton's CD while conscientious generalists urge us to check out modern country, but overall there's been a return to a default-mode rockism that prizes substance, complexity, edge.

-- Haikunym (zinogu...), February 7th, 2007. (later)

Et al. I could probably write a dozen more meanings. With Paris I feel like you get one or two. When you're lucky, two. You get the straight-forward meaning and the wink-wink. You don't get much emotion. You don't get much sincerity. (Even if it isn't ironic, though I believe it's very, very ironic music.) With Avril you get a whole range of meanings.

Upon reflection, I still like Katharine McPhee's "Over It" best, because it's going for a more wistful "I'm over the pain", while Tisdale and Pruitt are more confident and assured "I'm totally over this guy and will NEVER take him back" songs. A matter of preference I guess, but I like the melodrama of the former rather than the cattiness of the latter. Plus, McPhee has the music to back it up. It won't make my top 10 and probably won't make my top 20 singles of 2007, but it's probably one of my 5 favorite songs of 2007 released so far. (Umm, below "With Love" and "Catch You" and maybe one or two Tisdales).

I doubt it.

Avril's playing the cheerleader, inviting us to join her in her jump and stomp. A totally different feel.

Like Abby, I thought of "Hypocrite," since both "Girlfriend" and "Hypocrite" are power pop that's heard the Ramones. But Toni Basil's "Mickey" is "Girlfriend"'s obvious reference; deliberate, I presume.

The energy of "Girlfriend" is too much, too heavy (I had the same problem with Megan McCauley's "Tap That"). And overall, the track feels like a genre exercise. That may not ultimately be a flaw, but it puts me at a distance. What may save it for me is the prettiness of the harmonies. Chants usually aren't so pretty.

I'm trying to take in an awful lot of music right now; Ashley Tisdale's "Not Like That" seems the most comfortable in its bounce. Even though it's rock 'n' roll (or rock 'n' soul, since the rhythm feels a bit Holland Dozier Holland to me) rather than reggae, it has the same lift as "Pon De Replay," but attached to a bright bubble sound.

I sort of agree. What genre, though? "Exercise" is maybe the key term, anyway - I don't hear it as an inspired song in the least.

I do think the wit that Mordy sees in it is there, and the beauty in the harmonies that I perceive in it is there; but it's not taking me over the top. A good little song, though.

Seriously, though: And now I'm reading Avril's current song in the context of her last two albums - hasn't Avril always been the anti-Cheerleader? Sk8r Boi (or however you spell it), for instance. And I remember a Spin Magazine article that called her the anti-Britney. Is it the clapping that makes it fun sing-along? And it's fun for me, but I wouldn't say it's fun for Avril. There's a lot of tensions in the song. I think the sing-along part is just a smokescreen.

i find it bizarre to think that avril is MARRIED these days.

simon reynolds is insufferable, seriously. he only annoys me particularly because so many people i know and like still respect him from whatever good stuff he did fifteen years ago, but every word i've ever read by him has been smug, condescending, wrong-headed and completely phony.

i just heard the jessica simpson album which came out in the states last year - apart from 'a public affair' which is amazing, the rest is kind of...very bad. her voice really is peculiarly charmless and grating. also, she looks well rough on the cover.

overall, the track feels like a genre exercise

"Hi, we're Spinal Tap. Hope you like our new direction. This is JAZZ ODYSSEY"

It's funny how some acts carry more baggage than others. I too like the new Avril single, but knowing that it IS Avril means I'm asking myself: why this song, why now?

By contrast, all Girls Aloud singles are genre exercises in a way, but that's what I think a lot of people like about them. The only expectation of them is that they surprise us. I also remember a lot of poptimists - can't remember if Lex was one of them - saying the 2nd Rachel Stevens album was great because she was a blank canvas upon which producers could paint exciting ideas. (As it happens, I didn't agree with that take, but whatever.)

I thought the girls have split up, but then I saw that "walk this way" cover yesterday. so what's the deal?

i liked 'fired up' (storch!) and 'i don't want to care', but the former suffers from being an inferior version of paris's 'turn it up' (jessica even interpolates the melody of it) and the latter isn't quite as abject and nihilistic as it needs to be.

i really dislike everything else, the 80s production steez seems laid on a bit too thickly, she never convinces as a performer...as for the slightly mad country songs, it might be that i don't like country, but when she keeps yelling "yee-haw!" i just get this sense of TRYING TOO HARD.

(gave the album two stars in the end.)

Completely fail to see the appeal in this. Who freaking cares?

contra paris who IS the motherfucking princess and therefore doesn't need to say it - avril isn't any sort of proper princess, she's a punky brat who's staking an entirely illegitimate claim to princessdom (ie she is the kind of girl who says "motherfucking").

Is that Paris is the type of girl who says "motherfucking" (and more), and I don't see how her claim to princesshood is any more legitimate than Avril's. If anything, Avril's a better princess than Paris--she gets to spit on the paparazzi and then laugh about it, while Paris just thanks them for filling up her gas tank. (Plus they sell tiaras at Claire's now, and everybody's got a Balenciaga; "princess" as a female identity is commonplace; see My Super Sweet Sixteen for details.)

My favorite part of "Girlfriend" is the instrumental push at :09 and again at :21. The rest doesn't live up to that power for me. I can't feel her fully committing to anything within this track--the scrawly vocal is an affectation, and she doesn't seem entirely comfortable with the singsong and chanting, too halting or something. And the lyrics are dumber than usual ("she's like, so whatever"), to the point where this strikes me as a parody of...somebody. Not sure who. The opening shout and the instruments at :09 act like she's about to be a big deal, but they lie--she stays light and bratty through, vocally and lyrically.

Whatever. Now I'm just repeating myself.

I'm referring to her self-entitlement in the song. The fact that she's trying to steal someone's boyfriend. The very words: "I'm a motherfucking princess." Etc.

yeah, she's hanging out w/ the (can't quite make up her mind) the sk8er punks... unless it's the artsy fartsies she's hangin' out w/... or the singer-songwriters, the freaks, the quasi-intellectuals [it does get all mixed up].

But... OK, "Girlfriend" is generic "cheerleader" from 25 to 45 or 55 years ago; actual nowadays cheerleaders are going to be shakin' tushes to modern-day r&b. ("Girlfriend" draws on a long-ago r&b.)

(Hard to talk about being anti-mainstream when being anti-mainstream is so mainstream.)

xp

As for Avril, she's another teen-pop star I've never really got on board with, but I'm extremely surprised to find I may soon be changing my stance. What I don't understand is how she can sound younger and more fun now that she's grown up and married? Now she sounds about 12, like she's taken cues from Shebang, Kim-Lian, Shampoo or Blog 27! Certainly not what I expected from her new material. I don't know if any of you at all are familiar with Shebang, a female Swedish teen duo from a few years ago, but look them up if you like this. Romeo and Temple Of Love are amazing. How is she going to combine this with her new grown-up image? It's confusing but I'm not complaining. All singers should follow Avril in ditching all serious musicianship in favour of music aimed at the under-10s!

Damone - Out Here All Night
Young Love - Discotech (amazing song, surely has to be huge?)
The Hush Sound - Wine Red (old-ish but good)

Today's Washington Post has a rather sad profile of Amy Winehouse, the British soulstress whose voice sounds like it's been soaked in bourbon, and how she's made her way across the pond. (Idolator)

So we've narrowed it down...but Mordy gets the edge for not following up with this:

Sure, her label is going to try the Starbucks route, as well as the "blitzing every genre" route, but it's hard not to worry that her persona will overshadow all of those marketing initiatives---and that she'll become nothing more than the next Britney Spears, without even a "...Baby One More Time" under her belt.

(WashPost's sopping metaphor in "100-PROOF VOICE" -- "Hers is a voice marinated in regret and pulsing with pain, yet soaked in snarkiness while fully rooted in the saccharine sensibilities of '60s girl groups." -- is a distant third.)

Also - I was talking about Dorothy Parker (whom I love), and they were talking about Amy Winehouse (whom I don't). Also, I think I get an edge because of the Lucky Strikes, which Idolator totally missed out on.

I could see "Girlfriend" making a nice place for itself on the TRL countdown, actually, but I'm not sure how much life the show has left in it, either in terms of it sticking around or its power as a Top 40 crossover point. ...I'm also hoping that Skye didn't do anything remotely similar to this with Dr. Luke/Max -- ironic that by essentially moving closer to Skye (who was never actually Avril Lite), Avril might have put Skye in the position of seeming to be a copycat again!

Anyway, I liked that. But I haven't heard anything since then.

Or did Billboard suddenly decide to count Radio Disney plays in its Hot 100 formula? But then Hannah and Corbin and Vanessa would be up there, too.

"IT WAS A VERY GOOD 'YEAR': In 2003, the youthful U.K. band Busted had a No. 2 hit in Britain with "Year 3000," but the song, and the group, never crossed the pond to become a U.S. hit. Four years later, the song finally arrives on the Hot 100, but not by the defunct Busted.

This version of "Year 3000" is by the Jonas Brothers and is from their Columbia Records debut, "It's About Time," released in 2006. The act has already left the label and has signed with Disney's Hollywood Records. The brothers' Hot 100 debut at No. 40 is fueled by repeated broadcasts of the song's video on the Disney Channel. Only two songs have had higher debuts in 2007. Fall Out Boy holds the record, with a No. 2 bow for "This Ain't a Scene, It's an Arms Race." In second place is Corbin Bleu's "Push It to the Limit," which jumped on at No. 14.

The lyrics to "Year 3000" have been updated for the Jonas Brothers' version. A reference to Michael Jackson in the Busted original has been changed to Kelly Clarkson. "

Apparently not "Be Good to Me." Footage of Ashley recording that with Kara here. (There was a podcast? When? All my iTunes can find is some karaoke thing.)

There is a mystery of Kara. For me to say "Oh, she wants someone else to work through" seems too... I don't know... clichéd? And I doubt that working with Ashley Tisdale is much like working with someone like Ashlee Simpson, since with Ashley with a y there doesn't seem to be any persona or self-expression at issue, or even a vocalist's identity (though I find Tisdale pleasing as a vocalist). Kara's got a stronger personality with Platinum Weird.

(But then, I made the decision to deprive myself of TV in 1999, which means I've never seen the Ashlee Simpson Show, and never got a glimpse of how she, John, and Ashlee created the woman who sang Autobiography.)

One line in Nothing in This World stands out in my mind: "I can do what she can do so much better." That line would be ironic in its arrogance for anyone else, but for Paris it's sincere! She is overwhelmingly confident about her attractiveness, and this is in fact the REASON she's considered attractive by the mainstream (she's certainly not attractive from an physically objective standpoint)*. There's Paris-ness all over that record, and in a very frank and real way.

The Avril single is as invigorating as music gets. There may not be that much to sink your teeth into, but it's a wonderful opening salvo.

I like With Love, but to me it sounds like it could have been taken off any Cassius album. Hilary had seemed to be building a sound of her own, and that's gone from this song. And, more worryingly, I'm not sure Hilary's voice is up to the task of handling aggressive dancepop. The guitar fills on it are wonderful.

*This sort of media manipulation would have delighted Warhol, and will likely result in gay icon status for Paris, if she doesn't have it already.

Thanks to FT's Pete for pointing this out. Mind you, this Rubinoos song is itself sorta derived from The Ramones' "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend", so maybe they won't have the cheek to sue.

I haven't noticed anything like that on the Paris album, but then again I don't know her persona well enough to know when she might be playing with it. I wouldn't mind if she were (depends on how she does it); I'm just not noticing.

You're quite right that irony does not imply a lack of sincerity, but I do feel it is a barrier to it. It's not so much a safety net as a mask.

I like a lot of soulless pop records, but Paris isn't one.

(I know Frank, but it's legit online audio - I think - hosted by the band's own site so I thought it would be OK)

I don't think Paris's album is insincere in the least. I still think though that she has enough self-consciousness to play a little with her identity. I wrote a long analysis of the lyrics of Stars are Blind in last year's thread to that affect. Which is to say: She could be sincere about her identity ("imperious and arrogant," though I wouldn't use those particular words) and still have a sense of humor about it. To wit: I consider myself an Orthodox Jew, but that doesn't stop me from making jokes about it, or playing with the meaning of that identity. (Or more exact: I can make fun of my character traits, beliefs, etc.) Actually, I think part of presenting a persona is being able to play with it. My problem with Paris is that I find her particular brand of wink-wink very soulless. I understand you disagree ("...but Paris isn't one") and I'm not sure I could, or would want to convince you otherwise.

Which is to say, I think she's being ironic. And that has nothing to do with the reason I dislike her. Actually, the irony is part of the reason I can deal with Stars are Blind, but find some of the rest of the album absolutely humorless. It's also why I really love the Avril Lavigne song. I think her use of identity is much more conscious, fluid, and fun. By comparison: I love Kafka, because I find he's hysterical, even when he's discussing alienation. I can't stand Coetzee because though he deals with similar themes of alienation, he is completely humorless about it.

"I'm Over It" by Everlife. This video is set to Hannah Montana clips oddly enough. Anyways, like I've found with most Everlife it's an OK pop song but nothing to intentionally listen to.

"Get Over It" by Avril. Though, the "I'm Over It" implication of all the previous and "Get Over It" meaning of this one are kinda opposite. Anyways, not one of the better Avril singles.

I've always liked her a lot on That's So Raven even though I hate the show.

No, I hate Zack and Cody too, though I do like Ashley Tisdale and Brenda song. I watch Hannah Montana and reruns of Phil of the Future, Lizzie McGuire, and Even Stevens.

OTM! OTM!

Does it effect the discourse here the idea that it's very likely that nobody actually making the Paris CD were thinking about anything being read into her CD and its suggested intent, what with the high liklihood that the main thing on everyone's agenda was to record a zillion takes of everything, and try to find ones usable enough to then run through ProTools and a mess of other gear so as to approxiamte a listenable vocal track (and then, to be on the safe side, multitrack that four or more times whenever possible)?

My other point with this is that this is the reason I find it 'souless'. I hear the machinery of a studio processed a weak voice. Lindsay, Avril, even Mandy Moore, the fact that they can sing isn't a rockist sort of elitism. The fact that they can, unassisted, make coherent vocal sounds makes their intention unmediated, something you can read by its own merits.

(There's a funny bit in the Bonus Materials for the Buffy musical. Joss Whedon wanted everyone to really sing. Allyson Hannigan was terrified, as she can't sing at all, and begged Whedon not to write any songs for her. We see her in the studio, she gestures at the gear, notes its ability to make a sow sound like caruso or the like, and laughs, "What was I WORRIED about??")

The singer, now quite famous, couldn't yet sing--especially in the studio.

So he in some cases the producer literally crafted a lead vocal track from 20-odd other take,, sometimes literally building the vocal word by word, and then running that through the computer for pitch correction.

The result is terrific. But really, the singer is nothing more than a tone producer--the artist, the creator of sound and intent, was the producer.

Saying this record was 'by' the singer seem like saying an Eno track is by Robert Moog. Is what I'm thinking.

If I hear a complete vocal track made up of a thousand individually recorded syllables and it moves me, why shouldn't I credit the producer of the voice, with whom I'm primarily identifying (as opposed to, say, the producer of the beat, which I might not care about nearly as much)? But then I don't hear the machinery in Paris's voice, or if I am, it's not hitting me as "machinery."

I mean, if it's assumed that we're talking about an imagined persona/product or whatever, sort of like the most visible part of a large co-production effort, then those arguments work, I guess.

I'm not being this asthetic scold--absolute artificiality is, I think, often the apogee of pop wonder, and the reason I visit this thread.

But I feel like there's all this (wonderfully crafted) discourse about 'Paris' and her manipulation of image, and ironic iconic play, and so on, while I strongly suspect there actually is no Paris there--either in intent or in actual reality (who/what created her CD).

Which doesn't meanone couldn't write reams about absence and the manufactured pop identity and the real person sandwiched between.

And, further, I can be moved by "artificiality," too -- Margaret Berger in "Robot Song" moves me as both Margaret and her robo-lover ("another time, another place, another world"....wait, isn't that Van Morrison?) and in fact I'm moved because she's playing the robot, enacting the other side of her love story. I wouldn't make that argument for Paris, but I would say that whatever vocal effects are being made through computer multi-tracking whatever are the same vocal effects that are engaging me as a listener, and it's within those effects that I do hear sadness, humor, irony, along with the words on the page. The sadness/humor/irony's in what she says and how she says it. Unless that's really Scott Storch's processed multi-tracked voice, in which case it's how he says it.

Like--you're recording line after line of takes into your hard drive. Eventually, you composite the best versions, whether word by word, or whatever. At a certain point, the vocal becomes, like, nobody's vocal, or to look at it another way, as an archetypical vocal, a finessed version of an emotion--very distanced from direct expression.

Which i guess begs the question of what 'direct' means, and why it might be better than something else. It also applies to sampling--which is, I think, the most accurate way to think of her vocals. When does a james brown sample, after being cut and effected and EQed and so on, stop being a signifier of something else--James Brown--and an integral part of a new text? It varies.

I totally agree that one can be moved by 'artificicialty'. I'm not arguing against that. I especially like it when artificiality becomes part of the text, like with The Knife or "O Superman" (obvious instances.)

But I think there's diminishing returns. Or at least, what you end up with is very, well, mediated. (This is *really* hard for me to explain.) Really, if only to be contrarian, I wanted to find the Paris CD brilliant--instead, I just sort of get the wiggins listening to it. And of course, that's just me.

But if by indirect you mean it sounds like a sample...I guess I have two arguments, one being that there are ways to create new meaning in vocal samples even when the effect seems to be "disembodying" or "objectifying" a voice, or divorcing it from signifying the original person -- like in a French house song, which, depending on the song, might turn a gorgeous vocal into wallpaper or draw attention to a very specific vocal phrase, giving it new meaning through repetition (some are ambiguous, like Hi Tack's "Say Say Say," which kind of has it both ways -- you get Michael Jackson as wallpaper). And sometimes the song is so extended that over time you have both reactions alternately. So sampling someone's voice might make his or her voice just as human, or "more human," as it was in its original context (like improving an old song and making an old performance even stronger by giving the vocals a new context, though I agree with you that this all of this varies).

The other argument specific to Paris is that I don't think that her voice comes across as a "sample," though I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this sort impression in another context -- like Iggy's vocals in "Punkrocker," where I do kind of get that feeling. Actually, Eppy makes a similar argument convincingly re: "Fighting Over Me," which I've previously described (Paris's performance) as "wallpaper." Paris also doesn't come across (to me) as "android," which is a description I might use for Hilary Duff or Cassie, and here I mean a kind of impersonal effect of a voice in the spotlight (not necessarily a mechanically processed effect), not the same as an impersonal effect of a voice denied the spotlight (Basement Jaxx does this sometimes). I actually get a very (directly) personal effect from Paris's vocals -- precisely because they're so stacked-up and meticulous. (And I'm definitely not arguing that the album is brilliant, in the American sense of the word, but that there's genuine feeling in it.)

Ian, I'm really not grasping your point. I don't think how the vocals were recorded and how many takes there were and how it was pieced together has anything to do one way or another with whether someone's being ironic. The question of how it was made and the question of whether it's ironic are completely separate. Mr. Bennet in Pride and Prejudice is one of the most wonderfully ironic characters in all of literature, and he's fictional. And Jane Austen started the book when she was twenty or twenty-one or something and and finished a draft a year later and then put it aside and came back to it, and it wasn't published until she was thirty-seven, and we have no idea how many times she reworked and reworded the scenes featuring Mr. Bennet, and nonetheless he's being ironic all through the book.

I sometimes revise my pieces several times, and editors can be involved in the process and make suggestions and provide wording, but nonetheless that doesn't have any bearing one way or another as to whether my tone is being ironic. It might have some bearing on whether we should call it "my" tone or "our" tone, but it's still the writer's tone, despite the writer being something of a collectivity; and there's no reason that the collectivity that helps create "Frank Kogan" can't be ironic, and if there's a collectivity that helps create "Paris Hilton," there's no reason that that collectivity can't be ironic and can't play with her image. For what it's worth, even when I'm writing all by my little lonesome I'm busy filching ironic devices from Chris Cook and Phil Dellio and Luc Sante. And nonetheless, when reading me, you need to be attuned to when I'm being ironic, no matter how many hands went into constructing that "I." So I'm not seeing an issue here.

But I hope that you wouldn't argue this, because all you would accomplish would be to make the word "mediated" altogether vacuous and unable to be used to distinguish anything from anything else. I mean, you could argue that all sounds are loud and all temperatures are hot, if you want to make silence and absolute zero your criteria for softness and coolness, respectively. [Don't mind me. This is just a pet peeve of mine. For "mediated" to be an issue it has to make a difference. If "recording" technology makes me better able to achieve what I want to achieve, then it's not mediating my voice, it's helping to create it. Ditto for editing. And maybe Frank Plus Editor is a better voice and better entity than Frank alone. (But I wouldn't bet on it. And Frank Plus Word Limit is rarely an improvement.)]

One thing that impresses me about the sound is that it's simultaneously a good four-on-the-floor dance stomp and a rock bawler; as the latter, it makes its rolling sea of guitars vastly more effective and voluptuously rocking than are the similar roiling guitar choruses of more officially "rock as such" songs by, for instance, Daughtry and My Chemical Romance (which aren't so bad themselves). And yet it also has the same hazy feel as the more-dance-than-hard-rock "Not Leaving Without You." So you have rock pressure and dance sway going together. (Which is good, 'cause it helps the rock stop being so damned depressed.)

I'm not being confrontational, I'm wondering how so much can be read into this--trying to import engineering cpncepts into everyday use here--how such a 'degraded signal' can be parsed for depth-y meaning. How Paris herself can import much into the finished product considering how complicating the process is.

(None of this is really about doting on the idea of authroship although, just for my own organizational purposes, it's helpful to keep trackof producers in some cases to understand, say, asthetic continuity/developement.)

I shouldn't have said "the machinery of te studio", as that's an analog usage, as is the idea of Spears' being interesting in a 'robo-chick' way. Perhaps that's what's new and for me, really unsettling about Paris' vocals--that it's a new sort of detachment, a hyper-digitalized thing.

As we talk, I'm realizing the main thing here is how her vocals really do unsettle me. The sound, the out-of-phase-y high end, the inhumanly smoothed out vocal wash backgrounds.

I was listening to a remix of Roxette's "Dangerous" and there's AMS reverb on, like, everything. But there's a very live, 'warm' studio sound effect on the vocals (which you can, of course, recreate digitally.)

Whatever--the effect is that of two very live-sounding human voices almost sparring with the digital environs. With Paris, it's like she's been consumed.

Maybe that's what wiggining me.

Questions that I just sent to Xhuxk and that I'm now sharing with the masses: (1) Is there ever going to be a Paris Hilton album? and (2) are Kara DioGuardi and Scott Storch still involved? This may surprise you, but I've been negligent on keeping track of this story.
-- Frank Kogan (edcasua...), April 5th, 2006. (Frank Kogan)

The phrase "this may surprise you" is a direct rip from Chris Cook (about his cartoon band Yo Soy): "The drummer was Squiddo Octopie, and this may surprise you but he was an octopus." The interesting thing about my irony, which I assumed most people would get, was that on April 5th 2006 (and I'd said something very similar to Chuck a year earlier when I was first hearing about the Platinum Weird and the Hilton LPs) I was basically indifferent to there being a possible Paris Hilton album, since I didn't expect it to be all that good, though Kara's and Scott's association with it gave it the chance of having (in Simon Reynolds' words) merit. So, not only was I being ironic, but it's ironic that I'd said what I'd said and had the attitude I had.

Isn't your main point that there's a limit to how much the electronic tinkering can create something that wasn't there in the first place (in this case, a fully realized, characterful voice)? Whereas I'd say that there's no principle or limit that says that the tinkering can't create it, but also I don't know how much tinkering there really was, and anyway I do hear a fully realized characterful voice, and how they achieved it isn't a big issue.

It's more of an issue for me how Ashlee was achieved, since I need to determine whether I should fall in love with Ashlee, with Kara, or with whom? Falling in love with a multiplicity may be too confusing to me.

(I realize I'm giving John short shrift here, esp. since he's one of the most talented producers/instrumentalists/melodists of the '00s.)

But Frank is OTM about irony. In fact, Paris's irony (or lack thereof) and her coldness (or warmth) has nothing to do with her means of production. THAT SAID. Benjamin would definitely encourage a reading of aura that requires knowledge of her means of production. And I think he'd call her inauthentic because of her means of production - though I'd need to dig out my copy of Illuminations to prove that. And I'm on the road, so that isn't going to happen tonight.

Here's an interesting question: Following Paris Hilton until last year, the most important aspect of her name was Hilton. At least, that was the consensus - because she hadn't created anything that would distinguish her first name from her last (though she distinguished herself in other ways - but artistically, I don't think anyone thought about her as something other than a Hilton). But following the release of the album, with it's one word title, we now refer to her as merely Paris. Did she in fact transform in the terms of her art? If we talked about her cursing out Lohan, would we return to Hilton? Etc.

Newest single Heavy Starry Chain (there IS an apple in her hands!), harder rock + Teletubbie-lookin' baby dolls in "I'm Gonna Scream," Elfman Halloween theatrics in "Lollipop Candy Bad Girl." Good Matrix-balladish Xmas track "I Love Xmas." They remind me a little of Betty Curse.

Didn't read the piece, but Us Weekly's cover (and cover story) showed photos of various celebrities who'd recently gone through breakups and dropped a size or two in their dress sizes as a consequence and - said the subhead - were looking far sexier for it.

Disagree. We haven't gone into it deeply, but the rock star issue is where it genuinely comes up. E.g., this from Nia:

I think Paris and, to a lesser extent, Lindsay are iconic for sure--but I don't think that alone qualifies them as rock stars. The thing about rock icons, Mick Jagger or Debbie Harry or whoever, is that they either present an image of not wanting to present an image ("They're genuine!"), or if they do want to present an image, it's as negative an image as possible.

Paris and Lindsay are too apologetic. Rock stars don't play dumb and then insist they're smart, or confess to eating disorders and then take it all back. Britney comes closest to the kind of iconic, defiant rock stardom you're talking about, Dave, in that she seems to really not give a shit.

These days, to the extent that "authenticity" is an issue in popular culture and isn't just a buzz word floating in the breeze, it's about class relations and Relationship To Authority, with the premise being that Authority is irremediably illegitimate. Any other issue brought up in relation to "authenticity" is a stand-in for this one. (Not that what is meant by "Authority" and what is meant by "class relations" are at all clear. The advantage of discussing stand-in issues is that one doesn't get clear about one's actual issues.)

There is a mystery of Kara. For me to say "Oh, she wants someone else to work through" seems too... I don't know... clichéd?

Wants? Needs? Is afraid to be without? Her words: "I've loved [being in] the shadows. The shadows are great because you can hide there and do what you do, and if you're failing, no one knows." I can't tell whether she loves her place in pop ("I want to write the quintessential pop song...one of those moments in pop time that defines an era.") or loathes it ("Sometimes, when I enter a room [to write] with a girl who has had no pain, no sorrow, and no experience, I almost want to put a gun to my head."). Not that the things she says are mutually exclusive, really, but they have a way of undercutting themselves. (Now is this a discussion for this thread, or a tangent for elsewhere?)

By the way, I think she's learning how to live in the herd in "Avalanche."

Hilary Duff news, album is due in April, all songs co-written with Kara DioGuardi and dancey as previously reported.

Co-written with DioGuardi and whom else?

Looks like "Dignity," "Never Stop," and "Between You and Me" are Hilary, Kara, Richard Vission, and Chico Bennett; "Play with Fire" is Hilary, Kara, will.i.am, and James Everette Lawrence (is this Rhett Lawrence?); "Danger" is Hilary, Kara, Mateo Carmago, Julius Diaz, and Vada Nobles; and "Dreamer" is Hilary, Kara, and Frederick Nassar.