Is there a uniquely British form of music?

The actual music of the music hall consisted of comic and sentimental songs, very visual with a high degree of audience participation. Was it "uniquely British"? No, it travelled widely - music hall was popular in the 19th century in Europe and America. It might have originated in Britain, though.

(I'm no expert on music hall - this is just what I've picked up and may be quite wrong!)

examples of british borrowing?

I love him.

OK i'm stepping away from the computer now. i have some playing to do.

play nice boys and girls

fine

"Because it seems that you guys specialize in making sub-par knock offs of American stuff."

http://www.jamesshuggins.com/i/hum1/burnout.jpg

-- from The ends of your fingers (lejospop...), January 21st, 2007. (prosper.strummer.)

grime

It's called jazz. Of course there's British folk, but I don't know of any specifically British genres in the vein of jazz.

That's arguable, but none of those acts "sound" British. All of their music is built heavily on (black) American artforms. Even going to an era that many would cite as a 'british' thing (i.e. post-punk), a lot of that drew heavy influence from funk, reggae, and other forms of music that has nothing to do with Britain. I'm curious as to what music reflects the sound of Britain, the plight of the British, anything really.

I know someone is going to say "all new forms of music take influence from something" and that's true and all, but Roots Reggae / Rock Steady is a uniquely Jamaican artform (and stuff like ska and whatever has come in it's wake are mere imitations and are indebted to reggea)... what do the British have that's on that level? I'm geniunely interested, I'm not trying to be a troll...

I think there are links to folk music too, though - lots of music hall hits are basically drinking songs, so the writers would fall back on the rum-te-tum rhythms their audiences knew.

The bit of music hall most easily available for lots of ILM readers is the sample of "Take Me Back To Dear Old Blighty" at the start of The Smiths' "The Queen Is Dead".

xpost yes vaudeville would have been the US name for it. I *think* it caught on in Britain first, but I'm really not sure.

James Joyce (I'm sure plenty of other writers too) makes it clear that in turn of the century Dublin the dividing line between Music Hall and "classical music" was very blurry. I figure that the situation isn't too different today - a big shared audience between, say, Radio 2 and Classic FM. Music Hall obviously became more "respectable", just as the (middle class) audience for light Classical probably expanded between the mid 19th and mid 20th century.

And I'm not reallt talking lyrically here, I want to know what Britain sounds like. Does that make sense?

I don't agree with this. It's still an American artform, regardless of what has resulted from it.

You're not wrong, but that's all beside the point. Jazz is universally understood as an American form of music because it originated in America as a result of the conditions and climate there. People might listen to danzon in Bangkok, but it's still a Cuban form of music.

Erm, where exactly are you drawing this line? Because you could equally disqualify jazz on the basis of its roots in African music. It's something of an artificial distinction to draw.

Any British music that draws from funk and reggae IS a uniquely British music because there's something in the way the blend of styles reflects the the racial make-up of, say, South London in the 80s. I mean, that's what Britain IS and therefore post-punk, jungle, UK Garage, etc are no less a unique British music than folk or music hall. If you're rejecting styles of music on the basis that they contain elements of, say, Jamaican music you're on very dodgy territory and you would make R0b1n C4rm0dy very cross.

No, it doesn't really make sense. Unless you believe music is all about "plight". Seriously, there isn't a simple answer because genres don't have simple boundaries. Don't the Beatles sound sufficiently like themselves to be unique?

I know that music *akin to* Music Hall - sentimental and comical songs - exists all through Europe, and it's been making me curious for a while, where did it *come* from, this music that most ppl (if they still know about it at all) just refer to as "songs"?

Maybe the whole question is coming from a bit of a U.S./post-U.S. pop sort of perspective, where connecting the dots between genres is much easier and a big part of the fun. Music Hall as an "event" of course has a birth date of sorts, but I suppose maybe that type of songwriting, backed with piano and those "character" styles of singing has been around for centuries and centuries? But it doesn't get much play in Folk music, as far as I can tell, not even amongst acts that aren't anti-comedy.

Surely the orchestras must have been a Music Hall innovation, did they use them for anything but classical music before Music Hall came along?

(perhaps it would help if I knew jack shit about classical music.)

xxxxxxpost!

No, it doesn't really make sense. Unless you believe music is all about "plight".

Well no, but I think that "plight" plays a huge part in the evolution of musical forms.

Don't the Beatles sound sufficiently like themselves to be unique?

No, not really. They used the same musical materials as other artists, and so one can trace the lineage of those techniques. They didn't invent the rhythms or harmonies that they employed out of whole cloth.

There's a lot happening here. Most reggae aficianados will be quick to tell you that it was rocksteady that evolved out of ska, not the other way around. For its part ska was largely an amalgamation of and response to mento, calypso, and the R&B and jazz sounds Jamaicans were hearing from American radio broadcasts.

I think I understand your question, and I'm definitely not the guy to answer it, but I wanted to clear that up.

many many xposts apparently

What exactly constitutes music of a particular nationality?

Ah, sorry about that.

I own a Music Hall box set:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/pop_albums/2/2/q/e22868pzrq8.jpg

Amazing presentation (Bear Family, natch), lots of wonderful photos. Problem is it picks up at the exact point where Music Hall songs started getting *recorded*, not the point at which it started to exist (and in fact makes some passing mention to a whole previous generation of apparently much stiffer and less bawdy performers), so not much help re: questions of origion. It does show that there was ample american influence by the early 20th century tho, Ragtime, blackface ministrely and there's a cover of "Ma!".

(I can burn copies of the choons if anyone wants 'em.)

What applies to Jazz? Jazz is a musical idiom which can be described in terms of its rhythmic, harmonic, and instrumental properties. It originated in the US in the 20th century.

The Beatles certainly innovated, and yes, I suppose that one could make a case that their work represented the creation of a new musical idiom, so if you'd like to make that argument, go ahead, but I'd say that the common thinking is that what The Beatles were doing wasn't original enough in a musical sense to consitute its own genre.

Your notion of "American Music" is really bizzare to me.
What exactly constitutes music of a particular nationality?

I think it's pretty straightforward, really. Jazz was created by Americans, in America. From there it spread elsewhere. See also: European classical music, Indian classical music, Javanese gamelan, etc.

Thus disqualifying country as an authentic American music! Hooray!

Kraftwerk to thread.

I agree with this too fwiw.

I think it does, it's just maybe a bit tautological.

I'm pretty sure no other european nation has come up with an unique musical style in the last century either, have they?

I don't know if I've ever seen it referred to as such, but it seems like one could say that serialism is Austrian. Schoenberg was Austrian and the style was developed by the second Viennese school of composers. But I think no one would say that because the music seems so unreflective of Austria; it's more in dialogue with the whole world of European classical music up to that point, whereas jazz was a music very much in dialogue with conditions in America.

But there haven't been all that many new musical idioms created anywhere in the last century.

And saying that a band like Gang of Four are uniquely British is not the same as talking about an entire musical vocabulary like jazz.

I think it does, it's just maybe a bit tautological.

That's just because there isn't a better name for it!

what do the British have that's on that level? I'm geniunely interested, I'm not trying to be a troll...

To be honest, there is a type of folk music that when I hear it it makes me think it is uniquely British. But maybe that's already been established here. It's something I just hear and feel in my gut when it happens.

I too have grappled with the definition of "music hall". I know sometimes the Kinks are supposed to do music that is considered music hall, but I remain confused as to what exactly would signify music hall if I heard it. I have a general idea from some Kinks songs, but that's about it. I'm glad someone mentioned 'vaudeville' that does help matters. Thanks Tom for the Smiths mention, as well. 'Drinking Songs' yes - I remember a good friend of mine talking about that as the foundation of British music.

My personal opinion is that one of the greatest things about British music is the propensity (or tendency, rather) towards the TUNE. The Beatles made their cash on TUNES. Simply the movement of the melody up and down in certain patterns. There is plenty of great British music that is rather tuneless, but well...it used to seem like the unique thing about British music. But I guess really it was just what often set it apart from US music for me.

Also...like there are bands from Australia and New Zealand who have good tunes as well, but they're not the same kind of tunes. But I realize this is all subjective in a sense. I'm just trying to answer the question.

They may have done it better than any American band (whatever, I don't listen to that shit anyway)

Hahaha! You bet they did baby! That's why I love 'em. Hail Led Zep!

xxxxxxpost

Post-punk, rave, jungle, Sarah records/B&S style twee indie pop, baggy, early grime, UK garage, dubstep, ambient (Brian Eno is upset with you for forgetting him), 80s new romantic/kitchen sink synthpop, FRAGGLE, folk, skiffle, maybe even trip hop, any traditional music from Scotland or Wales...

Okay, I'd be willing to withdraw ambient maybe because its so anonyous, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who could listen to, say, those early Roll Deep records and say they didn't sound British, regardless of the fact they've got rapping on them and the US invented that 20 years previously.

Could you elaborate? What sort of tuneless American music are you contrasting it with here?

xpost

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VSncATNWCQWweM:http://cheryl.dewolfe.bc.ca/baby/crying.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~driss.hodson/TENPOLE_TUDOR.jpg

And we've established 'the folk tradition' as a fair answer to the 'form' question. Plus possibly whatever you call the Music Hall fusion of folk and light classical, depending on where it started.

If you're asking "Is there a British equivalent of jazz?", I'd guess the answer is no.

(I'm interested in how the American-ness of jazz impacts on what American listeners get out of jazz, but that's a different thread.)

Yes, that's exactly the point. Obviously there is music made by British people. The question was whether there are any distinct musical idioms which originated in Britain.

plus, british can mean u.k. which can mean scotland and all that, right? it's a vague question.

Great Britain = England, Scotland, Wales
UK = Great Britain + Northern Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waulking_song

Yeah, this makes no sense to me either. But I'm American and I write for strings.

xpost

xpost

The free improv style of ppl like John Stevens, Derek Bailey, Evan Parker etc does, however, sound quite distinctive and 'individual', plus there are dadaist and marxist elements in a lot of UK improv that you just don't find in American jazz/free music

and euro improv in general, while rooted in jazz, isn't entirely quite the same.

the whole historical angle of origins, there are books for that.

http://www.classic45s.com/images/ianwhitcomb2.gif

i don't think you could make that case when you account for rockabilly. the "rock" v. "rock&roll" distinction i think has a LOT more to do with rhythmic emphasis and self-conscious intent than it does anything else, and although i'm not sure if i agree with the idea of "rock" originating in britain it's an interesting argument and i can see a lot of points in its favor.

Anyway, my principal point was that whimsical British music-- Half Man Half Biscuit is another good example-- has an odd quality that I don't see as an American stock-in-trade. Whimsy is just not a very American thing and in fact seems to me to be quite English. Distinctively.

Now, who is better, black people or white people?

-- Dan Selzer (danselze...), Today. (Dan Selzer) (link)

as i mentioned, there is tape / musique concrete stuff that predates the radiophonic workshop, but i doubt they had access to it at the time. maybe they did.

still, the radiophonic workshop, to this pair of ears, was much more about synthesis techniques. they relied on tape manipulation, of course, but they were primarily interested in synthesis, and used the tape samples to alter pitch and reach different notes, and then to arrange. it was more the medium than the musical focus, however.

Your search - deliaderbyshire.rar - did not match any documents :(

N: There is no uniquely British equivalent of Jazz.
Y: What about x?
N: X isn't uniquely British because it was influenced by American music.
Y: But Jazz is influenced by lots of non-American music!
N: Jazz is uniquely American.

-- caek (ung...), Yesterday. (caek) (link)

reupload expected: sounds of SANTANA vol. LVCMXXXXXIVIII

I haven't said anything about jazz, except that it was carribean influenced. But New Orleans was quite a cultural mish-mash at the time, much moreso than most of America, so if something unique came out of it that's probably why.

I have tried being less than willfully obtuse about jazz. It never works out...

Seems to me that early "britpop" bands like Chapterhouse, Pale Saints or Rollerskate Skinny are uniquely British somehow, regardless of whatever US counterparts you could name or how well you liked them (first EP for each really just about does it for me).

Obviously, they are all somehow post-Elvis, which gives them their obligatory debt to the US, but I think there is a complete disconnect in there somehow somewhere. Someone probably hit it best when they said the Smiths are uniquely British. Jazz Butcher and Monochrome Set same thing. Bands that wear sweaters are perhaps a good litmus test.

I think to a large extent Britpop is, not surprisingly, "uniquely British" regardless of whatever its convoluted lineage might be.

The answer is yes, there absolutely is a uniquely British music and not a one has even mentioned the Wombles yet!

Hooray! All this and Nelly Furtado too, we are one nation of happy thieves!

JOHN COOPER CLARKE!

― M@tt He1g3s0n: oh u mad cuz im stylin on u (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 22 January 2007 16:12 (nineteen years ago)