Best Female Recording Artist of the 80s

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Kate Bush, Sinead, Debbie Harry, Madonna, Tina Turner...
Who else was there?

― yoko0no, Sunday, 25 March 2007 02:15 (nineteen years ago)

Siouxsie Sioux? I'm no expert on New Wave, but I'm sure some would think she's up there.

― chap, Sunday, 25 March 2007 02:34 (nineteen years ago)

I'm almost tempted to defend Rosanne Cash.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 25 March 2007 02:41 (nineteen years ago)

Annie Lennox/Eurythmics should be in this list somewhere.

― Johnny Fever, Sunday, 25 March 2007 03:06 (nineteen years ago)

martika

― gershy, Sunday, 25 March 2007 03:21 (nineteen years ago)

Susannah Hoffs, Natalie Merchant, Johnette Napolitano, Chrissie Amphlett, Belinda Carlisle, Yazz*

* = kidding about that one.

― SeekAltRoute, Sunday, 25 March 2007 04:25 (nineteen years ago)

off the top of my head:

1. Teena Marie
2. Stacey Q
3. Joan Jett
4. Girlschool
5. Laura Branigan

(for starters; there are others that belong on the list, too.)

― xhuxk, Sunday, 25 March 2007 04:40 (nineteen years ago)

A few others not yet mentioned with at least one great album:

Pearl Harbor and the Explosions
Holly and the Italians
Charlene
Two Sisters
The Flirts
Salt N Pepa
The Cover Girls
Tiffany
Debbie Gibson
Real Roxanne
Roxanne Shante
Bananarama
Taylor Dayne
Company B
Gloria Estefan
Cyndi Lauper
L'Trimm
Seduction
Precious Metal

Never made a great album but still great:

Sequence
Sharrock (or however you spell it) from Funky Four Plus One

― xhuxk, Sunday, 25 March 2007 04:50 (nineteen years ago)

And Pat Benatar, Sheila E, Shannon, K.T. Oslin, Lacy J Dalton, Terri Gibbs, Fun Fun, Dimples D, Au Pairs, Delta 5, Bush Tetras, Raincoats....the list could go on forever if you wanted.

― xhuxk, Sunday, 25 March 2007 05:01 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.woebot.com/christianeF.jpg

― Stevie D, Sunday, 25 March 2007 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

the list could go on forever if you wanted.

Especially if the standards are kept low enough to include people like Roxanne Shante and the Bush Tetras.

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 25 March 2007 14:56 (nineteen years ago)

With Bush Tetras you may have a small point (though they made at least as much great music as Sinead or Natalie Merchant or Johnette Napolitano.)

With Shante, you're nuts.

― xhuxk, Sunday, 25 March 2007 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

Madonna or Kate Bush by MILES

― blueski, Sunday, 25 March 2007 15:12 (nineteen years ago)

Kristin Hersh in Throwing Muses

― tom, Sunday, 25 March 2007 21:34 (nineteen years ago)

I will see what Roxanne Shante songs I can find on youtube (or wherever). I have to admit it's been a while, and I may be remembering the Real Roxanne instead (although you like her too), or even some other person who jumped into the fray at that time.

If I had to pick one I'd probably go with Kate Bush. There are some other for art music sort of performers I like a lot at the time, but I don't necessarily listen to them much now (and yet I'm pretty sure I still like them): Meredith Monk, Laurie Spiegel (unless her working that I'm thinking of is from the late 70s), Diamanda Galás(who I definitely like, but realistically I don't go around listening to her 80s recordings).

The Puerto Rican singer Yolanda Rivera did a lot of good songs in the 80s too, but not as a solo artist.

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 25 March 2007 22:53 (nineteen years ago)

Roxanne Shante was one of the great voices of the decade.

But of the two, Real Roxanne made the better album. Which was great. (And better than any Kate Bush LP I've ever heard, easy. But to each one's own.)

― xhuxk, Sunday, 25 March 2007 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

And if people are gonna nominate Meredith Monk (hey, Dolmen Music was sorta fun) and Diamanda Galas (ick) and Kate Bush for that matter, maybe somebody should nominate Laurie Anderson? (Not that I'm going to. Though I'm still happy to own my "O Superman"/"Walk The Dog" 12-inch.)

― xhuxk, Sunday, 25 March 2007 22:59 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, just checked some Roxanne videos and I don't think I'm crazy. That choppy early rapping seems so clunky compared to what came just a few years later.

(I'm not going to nominate Laurie Anderson either.)

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:21 (nineteen years ago)

I am. Jeez, how did it take this long to get to her? Big Science is a superb record.

― unfished business, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

Company B

yes!!

― Curt1s Stephens, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:24 (nineteen years ago)

That choppy early rapping seems so clunky compared to what came just a few years later

Bull-oney.

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=16037

― xhuxk, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:26 (nineteen years ago)

Well it does to me. The rhythms of the rapping just hit you over the head, like you might miss it otherwise. (Hmmm. Kind of like that gated drum sound in rock.)

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:30 (nineteen years ago)

I was listening to some of that music at the time, but didn't really get blown away until Public Enemy, and then lots of other things from around the same time. (And then I pretty much lost interest altogether not that long after, for reasons better left in the archives, since I don't feel like having those arguments.) I don't think discussion can really do much to change my mind on this point.

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:34 (nineteen years ago)

Actually Run-DMC definitely had my attention to, but not in the same way Public Enemy eventually did.

(Sorry for the boring thread derailment.)

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:35 (nineteen years ago)

How could you people forget Terri Nunn?! Berlin rules all.

― Jeff Treppel, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:37 (nineteen years ago)

how you can just HEAR the genre being invented -- the rules just aren't THERE yet, so the rappers can do ANYTHING.

This (from your comments on that thread you linked to) to me is the main appeal, and it's not enough to carry it for me. It's almost like an intellectual thing for me now, like yes, it's interesting to hear this genre emerging historically. (At the time it was at least also new, so the novelty factor carried some weight as well.)

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:39 (nineteen years ago)

Mmm, Chrissie Hynde. Wendy O. Williams. The Slits. Yoko Ono.

― souldesqueeze, Monday, 26 March 2007 01:38 (nineteen years ago)

Ooh, and Concrete Blonde.

― souldesqueeze, Monday, 26 March 2007 01:42 (nineteen years ago)

chuck, would you defend Debbie Gibson's Out of the Blue? The album tracks on the second side are kinda slushy.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 01:43 (nineteen years ago)

LiliPUT = best female band ever!!
and how 'bout Exene?

― outdoor_miner, Monday, 26 March 2007 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

Neneh Cherry! "Raw Like Sushi" is still one of my favorite albums from that era or any other.

― Ben Boyerrr, Monday, 26 March 2007 16:23 (nineteen years ago)

Yoko Ono, Laurie Anderson

― outdoor_miner, Monday, 26 March 2007 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

I'm thinking it's gotta be Madonna, just based on sheer quantity of great songs. Which I will list.
1. Cherish (yeah, I'm a wuss)
2. Til Death Do Us Part
3. Open Your Heart
4. Material Girl
5. Burning Up
6. La Isla Bonita
7. Like a Virgin
(we could also count "Like a Surgeon" here--Laurie Anderson's status would improve markedly with a Weird Al parody)
8. Like a Prayer
9. Physical Attraction
10. Papa Don't Preach
11. Crazy For You
12. Lucky Star
13. Borderline
14. Express Yourself
15. Live To Tell
All monuments. This doesn't even take into account the You Can Dance album, which people swear by and I think is pleasant. Also several album tracks I can't remember. Untouchable, including by most of the men that decade.

― dr. phil, Monday, 26 March 2007 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

of all the decades and all the genders, this is the easiest one to answer. dr. phil OTM, even though he failed to mention "into the groove" (or "holiday" or "dear jessie" or...)

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 17:39 (nineteen years ago)

Throw in Dolly Parton, Emmylou Harris, Naomi & Wynona Judd, Reba McEntire.

― Pye Poudre, Monday, 26 March 2007 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

madonna is the obvious answer for "greatest" female recording artist, because the word by definition suggests magnitude, impact, significance, etc. "best" is a kind of narrower category more determined by tricky personal aesthetics. she's definitely a top candidate, but you can make a case for a lot of other people too. most of them have been mentioned, but JANET JACKSON belongs on the list too.

― tipsy mothra, Monday, 26 March 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

wow, took a long time to get to janet! i'd throw in alison statton, too, along with tons of people already mentioned.

but the question asked for "best," not "some of the best" or "arguably the best," and i stand by madonna.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

madonna and janet aren't really contenders for "best", because the writing and production on their stuff isn't well, theirs. i mean some of it is, sure, but you know what i'm sayin.

"greatest", yeah maybe they could contend, even though they are confections. i'm a huge fan of both but when it comes to giving one woman the credit for greatest or best, certain things must be pointed out.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

unless you have someone else in mind who wrote all her own music, arranged it, played all the instruments, engineered it and produced it, i'm not sure what your point is. (actually, i still wouldn't get your point even then, but at least i'd sort of know what you were getting at.)

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

kate bush and madonna could never really be nominated alongside each other in this category because they're too different - kate did everything from write to produce, madonna didn't. that's enough to make this 2 different questions: best original and best, i dunno, half-original?

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

you don't have to play all your own instruments to be more original than madonna. you do have to write all your own melodies.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:07 (nineteen years ago)

i think it's safe to say that no American mainstream pop sensation could be dubbed the "Best" Female Recording Artist of the 80s.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:13 (nineteen years ago)

Umm, why not? This thread dies as soon as people start trying to splain how this best is better than that best. Singer-songwriter best is 65% better than just singer best. But singer-songwriter-musician best is the bestest best of all. Especially if there's finger-tapping involved. Fuck that.

― Pye Poudre, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:16 (nineteen years ago)

you do have to write all your own melodies

oy

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

kate did everything from write to produce, madonna didn't

I guess you don't' spend much time reading record sleeves, do you, babe? Or maybe you just can't read.

i think it's safe to say that no American mainstream pop sensation could be dubbed the "Best" Female Recording Artist of the 80s.

Yes, you're too safe.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

I guess, then, the problem really is that the question leaves way too much open to interpretation. Best is wayyy to vague.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

You think Madonna wrote and produced all her stuff Alfred? Where you livin?

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:18 (nineteen years ago)

And let's not start calling each other illiterate, we're not in junior high =P

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

It's a very simple distinction - original vs. I-needed-help-writing-this.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

I'd advise you to consult the credits to her four eighties album on AllMusic, Surmounter, paying particularly close attention to Madonna, True Blue, and Like a Prayer.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:22 (nineteen years ago)

I don't need allmusic, I have all those albums right here. On Madonna, you're right, she wrote those songs. An all the others, she's co-author.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

and even so, after you've with that helpful consultation, i'd further advise you to consider that perhaps there's more to making great music than "songwriting" or "melodies." (even though madonna happens to have been pretty great at both, judging by the evidence of her records.)

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

Are you trying to be deliberately pedantic?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

And it shouldn't be considered a feat to write a melody all on your own, when you have other artists composing many other elements to their music besides the melody.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

lol making music IS songwriting...

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:27 (nineteen years ago)

(I asked surmounter, obviously)

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

And it shouldn't be considered a feat to write a melody all on your own, when you have other artists composing many other elements to their music besides the melody.

so basically you're ruling out anyone who's ever worked with anybody else on anything?

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

no i'm just trying to point out the obvious. madonna and kate bush don't belong in the same category. best is too vague. that's all.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

This is like a Geir Hongro debate at its surliest.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

i'm not Geir and i never will be, good or bad as that may be ; )

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

please, madonna was my first infatuation. but the funny thing is

my first favorite song ever, madonna or not, was material girl

and guess what?? she didn't write it!

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

so?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

so, "best" shouldn't be too hastily applied to that genre of music-making.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:32 (nineteen years ago)

my head just exploded.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:33 (nineteen years ago)

haha i think i came on here looking to start an argument, sorry boys and girls

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

Your intentions aren't the problem.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

No offense, Surmounter, but I hate this "making music IS songwriting" thing. Songwriting is an aspect of music-making, but it isn't the whole deal. Music is music. A lot of things go into it, and it can be evaluated a whole bunch of different ways. None of it is intrinsically "better" than the rest, unless you clarify your criteria. More influential? More popular? More technically demanding? More unique/original/"artistic" (blech)?

A bunch of people banging on a log with sticks are making music. They probably aren't writing songs -- just mushing familar rhythms together in familiar ways. But that isn't any less valuable than any other kind of music making. Same goes for singing stuff written by others, or adding vocal parts to tracks, or whatever.

― Pye Poudre, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

So you're saying you DO think kate bush and madonna can be judged by the same standards?

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

i think banging sticks on logs is songwriting. i think singing something someone else wrote isn't.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:36 (nineteen years ago)

meanwhile, back to the original question: while i continue to stand by madonna, that non-melody-writing charlatan, i'm saddened that no one has taken up alfred's challenge -- not even alfred himself -- and tried to defend rosanne cash.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:37 (nineteen years ago)

the question isn't 'who is the best female recording artist of the '80s who did everything in her basement by herself', u choad

― rps, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:38 (nineteen years ago)

....from whom i've always heard fantastic singles but spotty albums.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:38 (nineteen years ago)

(that was referring to rosanne, of course)

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:39 (nineteen years ago)

no the question isn't really anything at all, it's like that question a while back "who is the biggest genius in pop today?" or something?

you can't just ask "who's the best 80s female musician" and expect that there won't be massive disagreements w/regard to the standards by which we are to judge.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:40 (nineteen years ago)

Rosanne Cash's Rhythm & Romance (El Lay new wave with country inflections) and King's Record Shop are probably the best studio-rock albums of the decade.

I go into more detail here: http://stylusmagazine.com/reviews/rosanne-cash/seven-year-ache-kings-record-shop-interiors.htm

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

choad means penis, i didn't know that!

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:42 (nineteen years ago)

these questions of "who authored what" never really come into play on threads about dudes, huh. except w/r/t aerosmith maybe, i dunno.

― rps, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:44 (nineteen years ago)

i think madonna and janet would better fall under the Most Awesome Recording Artist of the 80s category.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:45 (nineteen years ago)

Surmounter:

You can go in with the unstated understanding that there will be massive differences w/regard to the evaluative standards, and therefore keep the "X is intrinsically better than Y"quibbling to a minimum. It never goes anywhere, anyway.

― Pye Poudre, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

point taken. so, without the unnecessary pedantics (though i strongly feel that authorship vs. co-authorship is no small distinction), here's my take: madonna could never win this title, based simply on innovation and originality.

of course, the crown belongs to kate bush.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

Without the unnecessary pedantry – in fact, following the thread title's qualifications – the sheer number of great Madonna songs is sufficient to rank her.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

granted.

― Surmounter, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

great rosanne cash article, alfred. i'm listening toking's record shop right now. your line about interiors being "too hushed for its own good"gets at a lot of what's bothered me about her in general, but i may have spent too much time with the wrong stuff and too little time with the right stuff. i don't think i ever owned rhythm & romance. i should hunt that down.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

Thanks!

Interiors got all the rockist support ("she wrote AND produced it herself!") but it's nowhere near as illuminating or fun as its predecessors.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

I agree with Surmounter in spirit (not in every specific claim he made).

I think "greatest" contains a lot of ambiguity. It certainly can include considerations of quality. So, if you found Kate Bush significantly better than Madonna, even if you agree that Madonna had more TIME magazine, Man of the Year type greatness (i.e., great like Hitler), then I can see how that would tip the scales in favor of Kate Bush. (Actually, that's pretty much how I weight things. I do like Madonna though.) Of course, the arguments over artistic quality do tend to dead end pretty quickly.

(Fuck the 80's anyway, I don't listen to very much music from the 80's, in any genre.)

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

i'm saddened that no one has taken up alfred's challenge -- not even alfred himself -- and tried to defend rosanne cash.

Seven Year Ache is all the defense she needs.

― m coleman, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

godwin in effect

― rps, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:09 (nineteen years ago)

If you can qualify on the strength of a single album, what about Kim Carnes and Juice Newton? Why discriminate against artists whose greatness comes neatly packaged in a single song?

― Pye Poudre, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

anyway SADE owns this this thread sorry boys she's brilliant

― m coleman, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

Yay! Hitler!

― Pye Poudre, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:11 (nineteen years ago)

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/T/P/hitler13.jpg

― m coleman, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

Listening to Madonna, obv.

― Pye Poudre, Monday, 26 March 2007 19:15 (nineteen years ago)

So is it safe to conclude that it is a tie between laurie anderson and yoko ono then?

― yoko0no, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:57 (nineteen years ago)

chuck, would you defend Debbie Gibson's Out of the Blue? The album tracks on the second side are kinda slushy.

No slushier than most of King's Record Shop, Alfred. And "Only In My Dreams," "Foolish Beat," and "Shake Your Love" (the latter of which is on the second side!) are better than any songs Rosanne Cash has done since "Seven Year Ache." And I had nothing against "Fallen Angel" or "Play the Field," last time I checked. And even if they did, inconsistent albums can still be great albums now and then. So sure, I'd defend it, why the heck not?

Yoko Ono did how many great songs in '80s? One or two, maybe?

As for Madonna, her '80s output is no match for Teena Marie's, and may not be a match for Stacey Q's, Joan Jett's, or Girlschool's, none of whom have been mentioned by anybody else on this thread, which I think is sad. (I'll concede Madonna probably wins over Branigan. But they all beat Kate Bush -- who, jeez, isn't even better than Lene Lovich or Grace Jones when you get down to it. Why do people here love her so much? She's ok, but..) (and she's also not nearly as "original" as Madonna, for whatever it's worth.) (Dave Marsh in 1978: "Not exactly new wave, not exactly art-rock. Sort of like the consequences of matting Patti Smith with a Hoover vacuum cleaner.")

I agree with Surmounter in spirit (not in every specific claim he made).
I think "greatest" contains a lot of ambiguity. It certainly can include considerations of quality.

I'm stumped by this. Surmonster is clearly a nutcase, no big deal there, and he's entitled to his goofy opinions, even if they have nothing at all do with why any music has ever been better than any other music in the entire history of the universe. But who here is not basing their picks on "quality"?

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:30 (nineteen years ago)

I think Bush's songs go to all kinds of more interesting places than Madonna's, but I'm really not interested in arguing. (Dave Marsh says. . . *shrug* you know? I have no interest in these guys.)

But who here is not basing their picks on "quality"?

I think some people are giving it less weight compared to the overall impact/high profile of the performer.

I was responding mostly to tipsy moth's comments below (and probably should have said so, though it seemed like some others were agreeing with him):

madonna is the obvious answer for "greatest" female recording artist, because the word by definition suggests magnitude, impact, significance, etc. "best" is a kind of narrower category more determined by tricky personal aesthetics.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:44 (nineteen years ago)

"(Dave Marsh in 1978: "Not exactly new wave, not exactly art-rock. Sort of like the consequences of matting Patti Smith with a Hoover vacuum cleaner.") "

It's a bit unfair to dismiss Kate Bush's nomination in this thread on the basis of a quote from 1978 - hardly any of her 80s music sounds like The Kick Inside.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:50 (nineteen years ago)

i was about get put off by your calling me a nutcase, but then i read: "and [kate bush] is also not nearly as 'original' as Madonna, for whatever it's worth"

and i decided it just wasn't worth it ; )

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:51 (nineteen years ago)

(Tim F, good point, I was too busy being annoyed by the mention of an Important Rock Critic.)

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:54 (nineteen years ago)

Nah, most of it sounds worse. (And I don't agree with Marsh, necessarily! She sounds nothing like Patti or a Hoover. I just thought it was funny,)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:55 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, are we really getting into an argument about the merits of the talents of kate bush v. madonna?

is that actually a question?

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:55 (nineteen years ago)

most of kate bush's later stuff sounds worse than the kick inside?

just wanted to repeat it.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:56 (nineteen years ago)

My view of the 80s is probably a little skewed, becuase there was a point where mainstream music really did get closely associated in my mind with lots of things I hated at the time, socially speaking, people I hated, trends I hated, etc. so especially for the first half of the 80s, that may create some knee-jerk reactions to certain things. (That kind of melted in college, but at first it was mostly dance-oriented things that got through, early electro and rap, and then, more rap. By the time I graduated from college in 1987, I was a lot more comfortable with mainstream radio again (e.g., Guns-n-Roses, Samantha Fox), and didn't have that kind of association of it with a world from which I felt alienated.)

But for example, I can't hear "Hit Me With Your Best Shot" without remembering some idiotic high school assembly inspirational movie, about trying your best and so forth, that used that song as it's theme.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:00 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, I really need to buy the Immaculate Collection. Maybe if I hear these scattered songs altogether that I haven't actually owned (except for the EP for "Express Yourself"--though I think it was a defective copy, since it never sounded right), but have had around me, on the radio, in a room-mate's collection, etc., I might rate them more highly. (I think I would defned Kate Bush more rigorously if there weren't things about her production that I'm not entirely thrilled about--but they are mostly typical 80s pop things.)

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:03 (nineteen years ago)

i guess it's interestin cuz u grew up then, but i find the 80s oddly appealing. they represent comfort to me - things both annoying but comforting. of course, the grass is always greener, but i kind of wish i had grown up in the 80s. it seems so wacky and innocent.

as for 80s music, it seems like there's a lot of stuff going on beneath the bodaciousness of it - a lot of beauty beneath the noise. it's the kind of thing i have to slow down to hear.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:04 (nineteen years ago)

right, well those 80s pop things, i mean - that's OK for me now. i used to retract but it's like, everything has SOMETHING. u know? and to be honest, they sound pretty damn good with what she does with them.

you should definitely have the immaculate collection, you'll get a lot of use out of it.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:05 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, truth to be told, Kate'd probably benefit from more Hooverness or more Pattiness, truth be told (pre-1978 Pattiness, anyway.) (But again, I have nothing against Kate Bush, honest! Her most memorable-by-far song ever "Running Up That Hill" was even, what, one of the 40 best singles of 1985 or whatever year that was, maybe? Which put it somewhat behind "Into The Groove" and "Crazy On You" [same year, right?], but that's still good!)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:07 (nineteen years ago)

No slushier than most of King's Record Shop, Alfred. And "Only In My Dreams," "Foolish Beat," and "Shake Your Love" (the latter of which is on the second side!) are better than any songs Rosanne Cash has done since "Seven Year Ache

I'd rank "Halfway House," "Never Be You," "Rosie Strikes Back," "Somewhere, Somehow," "Hold On," and "I Don't Know Why You Don't Want Me" as equals, Chuck. The arrangements are a lot more precise than the other stuff you mentioned (though as good as those three singles you mentioend, and I'm surprised you forgot "Out of the Blue," my personal favorite).

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:08 (nineteen years ago)

lol Crazy FOR You. and that is DEFINITELY not kate bush's most memorable song. it's her most COMMERICAL song, by American standards, which seems to be what you're impressed by.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:08 (nineteen years ago)

The Immaculate Collection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Whole Story, too (but the latter's not bad. I'm still happy to own a copy. Another difference from Madonna, though, is that that's all the Kate I'll ever need.)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:12 (nineteen years ago)

[i]As for Madonna, her '80s output is no match for Teena Marie's, and may not be a match for Stacey Q's, Joan Jett's, or Girlschool's, none of whom have been mentioned by anybody else on this thread, which I think is sad[i]

We'll have to disagree then. "Gambler" and a few tracks on Madonna's first album are just as good if not bettter than Stacey Q's even though they lack Teena's batshit hysteria (or the full-stop batshittiness of Grace Jones' [I'm Not Perfect] But I'm Perfect For You")

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:13 (nineteen years ago)

compillations aren't the point anyway. and that's cool for you and everything - you sound like a very happy person who likes to listen to fun music. that's neat!

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:13 (nineteen years ago)

it's her most COMMERICAL song, by American standards, which seems to be what you're impressed by.

Saying stuff like that is a mistake. I don't think xhuxk's taste is all that easily reduced, or if it is, anyway, that's not what it boils down to.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:13 (nineteen years ago)

calling me a nutcase with goofy opinions was mistake numba 1

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:15 (nineteen years ago)

Well, actually, "Running Up That Hill"'s not as good (hell, probably not even as Rennaisance-faire-worthy!) as Heart's "Crazy ON You," either. (Hell, Heart's Bebe Le Strange was 1980, right? Great album! I hereby nominate them for consideration in the' 80s ladies Top 50 or so, as well.)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:15 (nineteen years ago)

in any event it does seem like xhux is reeled in by fun, catchy songs, you kno like with beats. that kind of stuff is very commercially viable.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:16 (nineteen years ago)

"Crazy on You" is way earlier than "Running up that Hill" isn't it?

Haha, "nominate." This is not one of our great ILM polls. (I hope.)

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:18 (nineteen years ago)

yes.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:18 (nineteen years ago)

crazy FOR you was the same year as Running Up that Hill

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:20 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, I like songs with beats, Surmounter. Beats are indeed good.

Title: 80's Ladies lyrics
Artist: K.t Oslin

We were three little girls from school.
One was pretty, one was smart
And one was a borderline fool.
Well she's still good lookin'
That woman hadn't slipped a bit.
The smart one used her head
She made her fortune.
And me, I cross the border every chance I get.

We were the girls of the 50's.
Stoned rock and rollers in the 60's.
And more than our names got changed
As the 70's slipped on by.
Now we're 80's ladies.
There ain't been much these ladies ain't tried.

We've been educated.
We got liberated.
And had complicating matters with men.
Oh, we've said "I do"
And we've signed "I don't"
And we've sworn we'd never do that again.
Oh, we burned our bras,
And we burned our dinners
And we burned our candles at both ends.
And we've had some children
Who look just like the way we did back then.

Oh, but we're all grown up now.
All grown up,
But none of us could tell you quite how.

We were the girls of the 50's.
Stoned rock and rollers in the 60's.
Hunny, more than our names got changed,
As the 70's slipped on by.
Now we're 80's ladies.
There ain't been much these ladies ain't tried.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:20 (nineteen years ago)

i like beats too. woooooo a meeting of the minds! beats are good!

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:22 (nineteen years ago)

Surmounter, I like songs with beats too, a lot of the time.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:22 (nineteen years ago)

beats are having a good night =)

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:23 (nineteen years ago)

That was meant to be a response to your earlier comment. Some of these arguments would be better resolved by dance parties.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:24 (nineteen years ago)

lol! i knew where it was meant. dance parties or chat rooms at least.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:25 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, Kate Bush could have used more Patti Smith? None of the Patti Smith I've heard has excited me (except for "Gloria," briefly).

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:40 (nineteen years ago)

I love "Running Up That Hill," but it's no "Invincible" (Pat Benatar's) or "Gambler."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:43 (nineteen years ago)

mm hmm.

also, if someone is using top 40 as an argument for the merit of an artist, they WOULD seem to be impressed by commercial viability. i mean, i guess i'm impressed by top 40 but i don't think that makes something good.

it actually might meab it's bad.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:44 (nineteen years ago)

someone who says, "yah, that kate bush's career, it's pretty good - she was even in the top 40 once!"

does seem to be placing importance on commercial success over something else

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:51 (nineteen years ago)

Who is "using top 40 as an argument for the merit of an artist"?

I was the one who named the Delta 5, for crissakes.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:52 (nineteen years ago)

(But again, I have nothing against Kate Bush, honest! Her most memorable-by-far song ever "Running Up That Hill" was even, what, one of the 40 best singles of 1985 or whatever year that was, maybe? Which put it somewhat behind "Into The Groove" and "Crazy On You" [same year, right?], but that's still good!)

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:53 (nineteen years ago)

u know the forty best singles of 1985?

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:55 (nineteen years ago)

"40 best" =/ "top 40," obviously. Jeez.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:56 (nineteen years ago)

He said it was one of the 40 best singles, which to me means he thinks it was one of the 40 best, not just that it was in the top 40. (Did it make it that far? I think maybe it did.) But from what I've seen of xhuxk's opinions, they certainly don't slavishly follow the charts. If he finds a semi-obscure metal or country band he loves on cdbaby (or via promos, but I tend to remember the cdbaby examples), he's going to say so.

Why am I defending someone who can go overboard defending himself?

I am through defending other people on this thread.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:56 (nineteen years ago)

x-post

(like I said.)

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:56 (nineteen years ago)

true enough, rockist, true enough.

i just find it impossible to defend the belief that Madonna is more original than Kate Bush, or that Running Up That Hill is Kate Bush's most memorable song, or that she needs to sound more like a Hoover.

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:59 (nineteen years ago)

god i fucking hate this lumpen midwesterm schtick

― bobby bedelia, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 03:04 (nineteen years ago)

What?

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 12:15 (nineteen years ago)

Some props to Suzanne Vega too. Even though I may be even more fond of her terribly underrated 90s work with then husband Mitchell Froom.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 14:01 (nineteen years ago)

Tshala Muana from the Congo

― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

please don't feed the lions

― m coleman, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

Is there really no mention of Liz Fraser yet??? Definitely the Best Female Recording Artist of the 80s for me.

― LeRooLeRoo, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 15:28 (nineteen years ago)

That Patti Smith mating with a Hoover simile from Marsh has haunted me ever since reading it in the Rolling Stone record guide at age 13. What the heck do you think he was trying to say? Wuthering Heights sounds like Patti? I really can't picture Patti having anything to do with the Brontës or ballet. I really don't understand the the Hoover part...white noise? Screechy? Patti Smith is more like Kate Bush mated with a Hoover.

― bendy, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

lol i don't see it at all, any of it.

go suzanne vega! my family and i sublet a house from the Frooms once, we lived there for like a while. weird huh?

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

How soon they forget poor Annabelle...

― Saxby D. Elder, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 17:33 (nineteen years ago)

if you mean annabella lwin, i didn't forget about her.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

i could be here all day listing fave ladies of the 80's. the best though? i dunno. kate bush -vs- madonna is a pretty good battle though!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

i even have nice things to say about annabel lamb!

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGPORTRAITS/music/portrait200/drp100/p142/p14249k6wts.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.hilarykinetic.com/hilaryphoto1.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000000EM3.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

oops yeh annabella... Nice, Alisha! :-)

― Saxby D. Elder, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

this thread needs more pictures...

― yoko0no, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 19:56 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.perrific.com/cds/kate.jpg

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 22:36 (nineteen years ago)

The Whole Story, [...] is that that's all the Kate I'll ever need.

chuck doesn't even seem to like Kate that much! anyone who'd choose the GH over her albums, I don't think really appreciatives her a whole lot....

and ffs Apples and Oranges here people.

― fandango, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 22:52 (nineteen years ago)

yeah he's totally dissin. and he thinks she's less original than Mad. what do you think? Is Madonna more original than Kate Bush?

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

Pears and Grapefruits!

― fandango, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 23:24 (nineteen years ago)

On ILM we like both kind of music: Kate Bush and Madonna.

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 23:26 (nineteen years ago)

originality is different than preference though.

originality is more factual. you can like one artist more than the other, and that's purely opinion. but one artist can be more original than the other, factually.

the fact that kate bush wrote nearly all her songs while madonna co-wrote a large number of hers in and of itself indicates that the former is more original.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 00:37 (nineteen years ago)

it's easy to argue for a preference for madonna over kate bush - far, far more difficult, if at all possible, to argue that she is more original.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 00:44 (nineteen years ago)

FFS, give up on the "original" stuff!! What if we found out tomorrow that Kate Bush stole all her shit?!

I'm just amazed no one's mentioned the Go-Go's. And I'm down with Rosanne.

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 02:59 (nineteen years ago)

And I'm gonna go with Madonna here.

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 03:02 (nineteen years ago)

Well as it turns out, "best" doesn't have to mean most original, but you can't just say Madonna is more original than Kate Bush without expecting a fuck of a fight.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 03:04 (nineteen years ago)

Madonna kicks the shit out of Kate Bush, where's the issue?

thread says best artist... I ain't even a fan but Madonna kills Kate Bush.

VOICE of teh eighties = Sade, sorry bitches. Artist = Madonna. I don't make the rules (and I am all about Allison Statton!) but that is just the way that shit is.

You Kate Bush supporters are too gothy for me, out my face... ("Running Up That Hill" does not the 80's make). How about fucking SHANNON?! She was teh shitsore...

The fun is in the runners up! (Kendra, Alisha, Debbie)

― Saxby D. Elder, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 06:23 (nineteen years ago)

http://strawberryswitchblade.net/gallery/images/wappingback2back.jpg

― Mike McGooney-gal, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 07:21 (nineteen years ago)

http://xo.typepad.com/blog/images/sabrina-thumb.jpg http://www.postersultan.com/posters/fox_samantha+fox+1_23x35_7.99_06-24-04.jpg

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 08:31 (nineteen years ago)

heres one vote for elaine boosler!

― chaki, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 09:50 (nineteen years ago)

"I'm just a post-it note board for you!"

― Mark G, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 09:52 (nineteen years ago)

FFS, give up on the "original" stuff!! What if we found out tomorrow that Kate Bush stole all her shit?!

What if we found out tomorrow that there are thousands upon thousands of hack Lillith-wannabe singer-songwriters playing folk clubs and coffee houses around the world (right this minute, maybe!) who also "write all of their own songs." Which there are! Are they more "original" than Madonna too? If you say yes, you're clearly insane. But that seems to be the gist of your argument.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:50 (nineteen years ago)

how long has Marissa been going?

― blueski, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:52 (nineteen years ago)

why is "write all their own songs" in quotes? yes, if someone writes all their own stuff, that someone is more original

than someone else

who doesn't! do you know what original means?

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

it means, originating from here, starting here, coming out of this entity. MADONNA'S MUSIC DOESN'T ALL COME FROM HER. the music, itself, may be more original than some lilith fair bullshit music, but she, herself, isn't - because she doesn't compose a lot of the sound on her records.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

if you wanna call madonna's music original, you have to call a bucketload of other people who helped her do it original, not just her.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:55 (nineteen years ago)

I think "original" in the dictionary definition is being confused with creatively original, which is I think what ramzi wants to argue...

― fandango, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:01 (nineteen years ago)

and I think it could still be argued well without bringing the collaborator/producer/other writers argument into it, which is quite obviously a trap and totally played out already...

― fandango, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

I know what you're trying to get at ramzi but you're holding the wrong tool for this job here.

― fandango, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:08 (nineteen years ago)

"Running Up That Hill" does not the 80's make

Kate Bush is considerably more than "Running Up That Hill."

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

and I think it could still be argued well without bringing the collaborator/producer/other writers argument into it, which is quite obviously a trap and totally played out already...

Exactly, exactly. You need to talk more about the music, rather than getting into all the arguments about who should get credit for what, which is just going to be a dead-end.

(I still can't get my head around the "Running up That Hill" fixation. I was listening to Never For Ever and The Dreaming, which both are full of good songs, well before Hounds of Love came out.)

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

no, i do NOT mean creativity. i mean original as in, who created the music. not how creative is the music, but who created it. madonna did not create a lot her music - she cannot be credited as original in reference to a lot of her music.

and no matter how played out the collaborator/producer/other writers argument may or may not be, it's very important - it separates musicians from singers. madonna treds the line. kate bush is clearly on one side of it. i'm surprised no one else feels strongly about this.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:15 (nineteen years ago)

Ok, so Kate Bush is the best female recording artist of the 1980s.

― Saxby D. Elder, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

it's not really a dead-end. i think it's crazy that no one else on this thread has stepped up and said: yes, kate bush is absolutely more original than madonna. it strikes me as common sense.

again, the music in and of itself, like you're saying rockist, is a different issue. madonna's music can be considered more original while she cannot be considered so. but i'm responding to the claim that madonna, herself, is more original.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_music/bananarama.JPG

― scott seward, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

I think for the purposes of this thread it's better to focus on the originality of the recorded output, regardless of who is responsible for that originality. (Otherwise it would just be tautological that any singer-songwriter is "more original" than any singer who doesn't write her own songs.)

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:19 (nineteen years ago)

i'm responding to this:

Why do people here love her so much? She's ok, but..) (and she's also not nearly as "original" as Madonna, for whatever it's worth.) (Dave Marsh in 1978: "Not exactly new wave, not exactly art-rock. Sort of like the consequences of matting Patti Smith with a Hoover vacuum cleaner.")

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:25 (nineteen years ago)

some bullshit, dude. angers me.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:25 (nineteen years ago)

sorry that was just a comment from chuck(?) w/ regard to kate bush.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:25 (nineteen years ago)

There are people on this board who practically specialize in dismissing concern about songwriting and other credits, and I'm not interested enough in the whole issue to try to fight people who have spent a lot of time refining their arguments about it.

It does matter to me who wrote songs and whatnot, just because I like to give credit for songwriting because I appreciate it. It's just a fundamental recognition of skill: if someone can sing well and also write songs well, I tend to be more impressed than I am with someone who only can sing well, all things being equal. (Assuming they sing at about the same level.)

But on another level it doesn't matter to me, in the sense that I care more about what I hear than how it came about.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:25 (nineteen years ago)

yes rockist i agree with that. i wouldn't have even gone on about credit this, credit that, had i not been so maddened by that claim. geez my blood is boiling.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:29 (nineteen years ago)

The minutiae of who-wrote-what and who-collaborated-with-who is not knowledge to be dismissed, but it seems kind of immaterial at least insofar as the audience is concerned. Also, some pop artists are great artists because they're smart in their choice of collaborators. I don't see how, in any way, this detracts from what they do--I'd argue that it's part of what they do. (In the early years of Madonna's career, a lot of critics just assumed she was a producer's puppet. Everyone knows now that's hardly the case, but just because she didn't sit at a grand piano and compose all her songs from scratch doesn't make anything she put out have less of a personal stamp...god, I'm beginning to turn this into some sort of auteurist type argument.)

Anyway, that said, I'm kind of hard-pressed to agree that Madonna's more "original" than Kate Bush. It was initially much harder to peg Bush as coming from anywhere in particular, no obvious tradition that she emerged from. (Whereas Madonna, I think it's safe to say, emerged from disco/new wave's crossover moment.) I remember at the time being completely confused by Kate Bush: was she new wave? singer-songwriter? art rock? She got played on underground rock radio alongside the Sex Pistols, and yet she had Pink Floyd's guitarist--it didn't make any sense. Again, though, none of this has anything to do with who I think is the "best"--I'd take Madonna, but I probably listen to my three or four favourite Kate Bush songs these days more often than I listen to any Madonna.

― sw00ds, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

I'd love to see a similar thread on the '70s, btw. I think that one would be much more challenging.

― sw00ds, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

(And come to think of it, I can see the exact same arguments taking place re: Joni Mitchell and Donna Summer)

― sw00ds, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:00 (nineteen years ago)

Madonna is certainly an original. Lots of great music, and I am pretty sure in retrospect she will be seen as the most important female artist of the 80s, maybe the most important 80s artist of all (alongside Prince, U2 and some others anyway)

As for stealing other stuff, yes, she had influences, lots of them, but I would still say she mixed them creating something unique. There's no denying she has a lot to thank Cyndi Lauper for. Lauper herself didn't become the huge and important figure she looked like after her debut album, particularly because of a slightly disappointing followup, but her influence on Madonna, among others, is undeniable.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:01 (nineteen years ago)

ha! iiinteresting

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:02 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

http://pochettescd.free.fr/images/m/Madonna_-_Like_A_Virgin-front.jpg

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

fav madonna cover

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

if that's an argument in Madonna's favour--I agree! (Though Kate's pretty hot as well.)

― sw00ds, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

(Surmounter ffs, when are you going to check out Shiina Ringo? (I know I promised I was going to drop it, but I lied.) Jump in with Kalk Samen Kuri No Hana.)

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

More often transliterated as "Zamen," I think.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

"She got played on underground rock radio alongside the Sex Pistols"

i first heard madonna AND kate bush on the same college radio station alongside punk and post-punk and new wave and art-rock and EACH OTHER and i ran out and bought kate bush and madonna records not caring where they came from (madonna only had a couple of singles and the debut had just come out. i bought the debut first. i bought kate's babooshka single cuz that was the song i heard on the radio and it certainly puzzled me a little bit. as did the cover of the single. and the live version of james & the cold gun. madonna looking like madonna on the cover of her debut confused me a little too though. don't know what i was expecting...i had never seen a picture of her).

http://www.kate-bush.de/media/DIR_41601/minilpus.jpg

― scott seward, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:38 (nineteen years ago)

i know darlin i know! fine i'm gonna order it on friday when i get paid. where can i find?

love that kate pic - so insane. actually i've been known to draw comparisons between the music of the 2. i know that sounds weird but there are similarities.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/2/23/200px-Madonna_(album).jpg

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:45 (nineteen years ago)

I guess that confusion may have existed on both ends, though Madonna's music didn't initially, to me anyway, seem that much out of the ordinary. I think it took a lot of hearing it and seeing her and starting to make sense of the whole packag (the videos, the dancing, the hysteria) before I actually recognized how extraordinary she was--maybe because her music fit into the fabric so comfortably right from the start? (I took to Madonna much quicker than I did to Bush, who initially I couldn't stand....so I'm obviously projecting here as well.)

― sw00ds, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

x-post

― sw00ds, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

I should've said "fit into the fabric of mainstream radio," just to clarify.

― sw00ds, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:50 (nineteen years ago)

http://eroticafairy.castpost.com/Madonna%20-%20Justify%20My%20Love%20(uncensored).mpeg.jpg

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

yes i know, it takes a bit to find mad's nuances, she seems to fit in at first.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:53 (nineteen years ago)

(i know darlin i know! fine i'm gonna order it on friday when i get paid. where can i find?

It's going to be expensive, so you might want to preview it first. I gave you a link for that in an old e-mail. I bought my copy from cdjapan.com. I think you have to look under "Ringo Shiina" rather than the other way around.)

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

http://shinji451.free.fr/Virany/Karuki%20Zamen%20Kuri%20no%20Hana/

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:56 (nineteen years ago)

that's right - OK. i won't let you down.

― Surmounter, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 16:01 (nineteen years ago)

I'm kind of hard-pressed to agree that Madonna's more "original" than Kate Bush. It was initially much harder to peg Bush as coming from anywhere in particular, no obvious tradition that she emerged from. (Whereas Madonna, I think it's safe to say, emerged from disco/new wave's crossover moment.)

I'm not going to argue that Madonna was necessarily more musically unprecedented than Bush just because I hear way more life in her music (which I do), but I don't really get how Madonna was any more directly similar to the disco-via-new wave that came before her than Bush was to the Fripp/Gabriel/Roxy/Wyatt art-rock-via-new-wave that came before her. Kate emerged around the same time as people like Lene Lovich and Nina Hagen, and it's not like there weren't plenty of artsy singer-songwriting medievalist romantic ladies who paved the way for her. By no means am I saying she didn't come up with her own sound; she probably did. But do people really believe she was that big a departure? More of a departure than Madonna was from...who? Missing Persons? Miami Sound Machine? Berlin? Donna Summer? Who exactly is supposed to have made Madonna-style music before Madonna? (I mean, I guess you could make connections between, say, "Borderline" and "Let The Music Play" by Shannon [were they both 1983? I don't have a reference book handy...], but if anything, they were both paving the way for Latin freestyle. Which didn't really exist yet, did it?)

― xhuxk, Thursday, 29 March 2007 00:51 (nineteen years ago)

There's no denying she has a lot to thank Cyndi Lauper for. Lauper herself didn't become the huge and important figure she looked like after her debut album, particularly because of a slightly disappointing followup, but her influence on Madonna, among others, is undeniable.

I love Cyndi Lauper's first LP, but I don't get this, either. She's So Unusual was 1983 too, wasn't it? Same year as Madonna's debut, right? So... are you saying Madonna made Lauper-like music later? When? Or influenced Madonna's image, somehow? Or maybe Madonna like the Blue Angel album?

― xhuxk, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:01 (nineteen years ago)

("Lauper influenced Madonna's image?", I mean....So, hmmm, maybe "Time After Time" paved the way for "Crazy For You" or "Live To Tell"? I guess that's possible, but I never connected Madonna ballads with Cyndi ballads.)

― xhuxk, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:03 (nineteen years ago)

have you listened to The Dreaming or the 2nd half of Hounds of Love?

It's a departure.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:05 (nineteen years ago)

If you haven't, I strongly suggest you get The Dreaming and take some time with it.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:06 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, I've heard those. And a departure how? And how is Madonna not a departure as well? How is Sandy Denny (say) not as proto-Bush as Donna Summer (who really doesn's sound much like Madonna) is proto-Madonna?

By the way, it completely slipped my mind until I saw the sleeve that Scott posted earlier today that, in addition to The Whole Story, I also have a copy of that EP (with "Sat in Your Lap," "James And The Cold Gun," "Babooshka," "Suspended in Gaffa," and "Un Baiser D'Enfant") on vinyl. And it's good! But I have a few Madonna albums that are better.

― xhuxk, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

So you're saying you think Madonna has broken just as much ground if not more than Kate Bush has.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

lol I guess I already knew you were saying that.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:19 (nineteen years ago)

lol yoko must be proud for starting this.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:20 (nineteen years ago)

Probably way more.

But Kate Bush is fine! She is the missing link between Grace Slick and the Gathering, and the missing link between Curved Air and Mylene Farmer, and the missing link between the Velvet Underground's Nico songs and Jeanne Mas. Those are good things! She is also way better than Tori Amos. I have nothing against her. I just have trouble thinking of her as a major artist, is all.

― xhuxk, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:21 (nineteen years ago)

Again I just feel the need to repeat.

You have trouble thinking of Kate Bush as a major artist, and you think Madonna has broken way more ground than she has.

Damn. I mean at this point I think I'll just throw in the towel!

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:35 (nineteen years ago)

Cyndi and Madonna have nothing in common; and Madonna has more in common wiht "Let the Music Play," "When I Hear Music," and Miami Sound Machine's "Doctor Beat."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 29 March 2007 01:46 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, but of course only a small fraction of Madonna's repertoire (maybe the best part, but so what) is at all comparable to those great songs.

― xhuxk, Thursday, 29 March 2007 02:00 (nineteen years ago)

(I would nominate Debbie Deb for this thread too, but reportedly there were two different Debbie Debs.) (Then again, maybe they both deserve it.)

― xhuxk, Thursday, 29 March 2007 02:08 (nineteen years ago)

we have a customer at work named Andrew Andrew, and his boyfriend (I think?) is Andrew Andrew, too.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 02:16 (nineteen years ago)

Madonna has more in common wiht "Let the Music Play," "When I Hear Music," and Miami Sound Machine's "Doctor Beat."

Sure, if you pretend Madonna released nothing at all between "Into The Groove" and "Vogue".

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 29 March 2007 07:26 (nineteen years ago)

Who exactly is supposed to have made Madonna-style music before Madonna?

I think at the time I pegged her as fitting into the whole Brit synthpop line of stuff: Yaz, early Depeche Mode, Soft Cell, etc. Her early songs seemed to fit comfortably in that context, and I'm pretty sure I even thought she was British initially. (If I overstated the case about Kate being a departure, it's probably because her sound was a departure to my ears, but I can kind of hear a connection with Lene Lovich and the like.)

― sw00ds, Thursday, 29 March 2007 12:52 (nineteen years ago)

both kate and madonna were dancers and interested in using dance and theatrics in interesting ways. they definitely have some things in common.

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:01 (nineteen years ago)

wait, was kate a fan of Heart?

http://gaffa.org/wow/k33.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:05 (nineteen years ago)

woah--that photo's absolutely brilliant.

― sw00ds, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:07 (nineteen years ago)

young kate had kind of a paul kossoff thing going on:

http://gaffa.org/wow/k125.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:08 (nineteen years ago)

she was also viking metal before it was hip:

http://gaffa.org/wow/k132.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:10 (nineteen years ago)

love this one:

http://gaffa.org/wow/k338.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:15 (nineteen years ago)

wicked pics.

― sw00ds, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

kate and madonna are the same age too.

"Hounds of Love ultimately topped the charts in the UK, knocking Madonna's "Like A Virgin" from the number one position."

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:19 (nineteen years ago)

by the way, I wouldn't expect anyone to mention Valerie Day on this thread, but considering nu shooz released two or three of my favourite songs of the entire decade I guess I will.

― sw00ds, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:21 (nineteen years ago)

I'm familiar with what Madonna brought to pop in regards to dancing (insofar as I understand dancing to begin with), but what about Kate? My guess is that she was doing something much more theatre-based? I really have no clue--didn't know dancing was part of her thing at all.

― sw00ds, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:23 (nineteen years ago)

her live thing - when she had a live thing - was very theatrical/theatre/dance-oriented. she trained as a dancer. like madonna.

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

and mime. her and bowie have that in common.

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:26 (nineteen years ago)

her and bowie had the same dance teacher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Kemp

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:27 (nineteen years ago)

as far as madonna's thing goes, and i love madonna, kate had been there and done that:

http://gaffa.org/wow/k290.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:29 (nineteen years ago)

scott, definitely check out the wealth of kate bush youtube material. there is tons of great stuff.

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:30 (nineteen years ago)

i will--my interest is well piqued!

― sw00ds, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:38 (nineteen years ago)

the only thing I remember about kate bush, before finally discovering her somewhat through "running up that hill" in the mid-80s, is seeing her perform on SNL (in a leopard suit?) and not connecting to it or getting it at all.

― sw00ds, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:39 (nineteen years ago)

there was actually a kate/madonna thing in the u.k. telegraph newspaper:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2005/11/16/bacromp16.xml

"Both albums have a kind of confidence that seems rare in pop today. And when I think back, I am struck by how many original female voices pop spawned at around that time: not only Bush and Madonna, but Annie Lennox, Patti Smith, Debbie Harry, Siouxsie Sioux, Chrissie Hynde and others stood centre stage and claimed the right to be heard on their own terms.

I might be missing something but today's female pop stars seem manufactured and bland in comparison. Kylie, Gwen Stefani, even Alison Goldfrapp just don't seem to have the originality or the blazing conviction that Madonna and Kate Bush have always displayed. They continue to shine, but their legacy has, in pop terms at least, simply not been fulfilled."

― scott seward, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:54 (nineteen years ago)

thank you scott.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 14:27 (nineteen years ago)

yah the dancing + miming on youtube is a treat. even more of a treat to watch her talk about her music. lovely woman, and beautiful.

well it's funny cuz the last 2 albums came out in nov. 2005, i mean Confessions and Aerial. what a great few weeks. they both make me really happy.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 29 March 2007 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

Who exactly is supposed to have made Madonna-style music before Madonna?

Musically, Donna Summer.

Vocally, she was unique though, in that she came considerably less from the gospel/R&B/soul school of vocals than any female disco singer before her. (well, OK, there's always Bananarama....)

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 29 March 2007 20:35 (nineteen years ago)

Who exactly is supposed to have made Madonna-style music before Madonna? (I mean, I guess you could make connections between, say, "Borderline" and "Let The Music Play" by Shannon [were they both 1983? I don't have a reference book handy...],

madonna's initial sound was derived 100% from the post-disco NYC scene of the early 80s, the larry levan/paradise garage - frankie crocker/WBLS continuum. while dance music faded a bit from the nat'l charts after 1979 it continued to rule new york not only in clubs but on radios and boomboxes thru the city. there was literally no escaping it -- basically the Prelude Records catalogue predicts all madonna's early moves.

i bet madonna might even cop to some of this if you asked her nicely.

"borderline" and "let the music play" are roughly contemporaneous and for that matter the shannon classic is a pop/major label approx of the nyc last-days-of-disco street sound, a mix of synths and trad instrumentation, soon to be replaced by pure electro grooves like "hip hop be bop" in 1984/85

― m coleman, Friday, 30 March 2007 10:01 (nineteen years ago)

I don't doubt that Madonna was somehow inspired by the Prelude stuff (among other early '80s disco-that-wasn't-being-called-disco-anymore), but I don't buy at all that it "predicts all her early moves"; sounds like a gross oversimplification. Compared to, I dunno, D-Train or the Strikers or Sharon Redd or Secret Weapon or Unlimited Touch or even France Joli (or at least to the several singles and couple LPs I'm aware of by those acts) (ditto Taana Gardner or similar contemporarenous non-Prelude acts), she just feels more Top 40, more new wave, more concise, more suburban I guess, and -- as Geir suggests -- less r&b. "Material Girl" is basically a ska song; "Burning Up" has metal guitars. What are the Prelude equivalents of those moves?

And yeah, I can obviously hear connections between 1982-era electro stuff (and sundry other early '80s street sounds) and "Let The Music Play." But the latter still sounds to me more like the beginning of something (Latin freestyle) than the end of something. Or okay...it's a bridge. I'm not denying these acts had their influences, of couse. So does everybody--Kate Bush included, which was my point. But they are still departures in important ways.

(I was in Germany at the time myself, where non-r&b-oriented dance music was pretty common, at it no doubt had been since the mid/late '80s; I bought both "Borderline" and "Let the Music Play" as 12-inch singles. I'm don't doubt they both have Europop-dance antecedents, in some ways, as well. But I also don't think either of them really sound a whole lot like Europop.) (When do historians say "Italodisco" really kicked in? For some reason 1985 sticks in my head, though obviously Italians made lots of disco before that.)

One guy who I'm pretty sure would have writing brilliantly about both Bush and Madonna (both of whom I'm pretty sure he worshipped) at the time would have been Michael Freedberg, at the Boston Phoenix. I'd love to dig up old clips to find out who he would have been comparing them to.

― xhuxk, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:01 (nineteen years ago)

Speaking of non-"disco" early '80s disco, there was also the big (medium sized? small?) circa-1982 British funk boom: Linx, Junior, the Quick, Nick Straker Band I guess (the latter of which was released on Prelude in the States, wasn't it?) Which often had a certain light Jamaican lilt. So maybe that's one root of "Material Girl" etc? Or maybe there's no connection..

― xhuxk, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:08 (nineteen years ago)

"Material Girl" is basically a ska song

Is it? I'll have to listen again. I can't think of that song without remembering a niece dancing around to it while soiling her diaper, which put an interesting spin on it.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:08 (nineteen years ago)

taana gardner's "heartbeat" has a bubbling-under wah-wah guitar just for starters. and I don't know about ska but reggae was a huge influence on the post-disco scene -- "walking on sunshine" -- along with euro-disco which flavored singers like france joli as much as R&B. I actually think we agree here xhuxk!

I wrote about kate bush in 84/85 and then got postal-stalked by her crazed devotees, similar to what happened when I wrote about new order/joy division a few years before.

― m coleman, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:13 (nineteen years ago)

non-r&b-oriented dance music was pretty common, at it no doubt had been since the mid/late '80s

mid/late '70s, I mean (when there was plenty of non-blatanly-r&b-vocaled Eurodisco, no matter what Geir says.)

― xhuxk, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:13 (nineteen years ago)

the best of those british funk bands was Imagination esp. In The Heat Of The Night w/the great hit "Just An Illusion"

― m coleman, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:14 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe August Darnell/Kid Creole/Ze/Antilles influened Madonna some.

― QuantumNoise, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:17 (nineteen years ago)

reggae was a huge influence on the post-disco scene -- "walking on sunshine"

Good point. And also a fairly noticeable influence on early '80s MTV new wave: Musical Youth, Eddy Grant, even Culture Club. So there's that, too. (Though I don't want to overstate reggae's influence on Madonna, either! Now I'm even having slight second thoughts about calling "Material Girl" "basically ska." Though I've always sort of heard it that way.)

France Joli was sort of Irene Cara for French Canadians, I just realized (assuming she was actually from Quebec, which I think she was.)

― xhuxk, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:20 (nineteen years ago)

And right, Imagination were great, I agree. (And yeah, August Darnell does figure here, disco-reggae-wise, as well. I was even thinking of Cory Daye as a possible proto-Madonna a couple days ago, but I didn't say anything.) (There's also, Ze-wise, Material's work with Nona Hendryx, I suppose.)

― xhuxk, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:22 (nineteen years ago)

"Material Girl" grabs the bassline from "Can You Feel It" by The Jacksons, but other than that it isn't much of a typical dance song really.

Another point about "Material Girl" is that vocally and image-wise, it is the closest Madonna has ever come to the style of Cyndi Lauper.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 30 March 2007 11:28 (nineteen years ago)

madonna did vocals for italo-disco dudes before she made her own music. she was also a dancer for patrick fernandez at the end of the 70's. obviously all roads lead to "born to be alive".

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:08 (nineteen years ago)

and hey give credit where credit is due: early madonna = jellybean

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:16 (nineteen years ago)

Right. And "Sidewalk Talk" is totally "Wordy Rappinghood," so Tom Tom Club deserve a mention on the proto-Madonna list as well (and "Genius of Love" was of course yet another reggae-infused early '80s danceclub hit too.)

― xhuxk, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

IIRC jellybean came into the picture after/around madonna's debut. he was like the next wave of DJ after larry levan, his home club was the funhouse in chelsea, a hispanic teenagers' hangout where the pure electro sound -- Man Parrish, Mantronix, Planet Patrol, Arthur Baker John Robie -- ruled the roost.

― m coleman, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:27 (nineteen years ago)

jellybean had a hand in EVERYTHING on madonna's debut. and he produced lucky star and burning up!

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:29 (nineteen years ago)

three of teenage scott's very favorite things in 1983:

madonna's debut album

new order's confusion 12-inch

freeez's "i.o.u." 12-inch

ALL Jellybean-related!

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:31 (nineteen years ago)

all electro/freestyle madonna action came from him.

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:34 (nineteen years ago)

if you want a true old skool/new skool meeting of the minds though in 1983: get irene cara's flashdance 12-inch. moroder production. jellybean remix. all roads lead to giorgio.

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:37 (nineteen years ago)

Doesn't all synth oriented early 80s disco lead back to Giorgio anyway?

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:40 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't mean to slight Jellybean, he was def a playa back in the day. but his remixes were never my faves :-/

those 1983 things scott mentioned all made me very happy in my mid-20s too. but I think of NO's "confusion" as more arthur baker related than jellybean but hey IT'S ALL GOOD as they say

― m coleman, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:42 (nineteen years ago)

the best of those british funk bands was Imagination esp. In The Heat Of The Night w/the great hit "Just An Illusio

One of my favorite songs ever.

And "Sidewalk Talk" is totally "Wordy Rappinghood,"

My God, you're right; I never noticed this. Then again, "Sidewalk Talk" is often ignored.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:49 (nineteen years ago)

"but I think of NO's "confusion" as more arthur baker related than jellybean"

well, it is(and robey-related like i.o.u.). but jellybean mixed it with baker. just pointing out that he had a hand in three of my very favorite things from 1983.

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 12:53 (nineteen years ago)

you know who is on madonna's debut who made really good disco is norma jean wright. she made records with bernard edwards and nile rogers in the late 70's. (gwen guthrie and tina b also sing back-up on madonna's record. i like them too.)

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2007 13:06 (nineteen years ago)

Norma Jean made a Chic Organization-helmed solo record.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 30 March 2007 13:08 (nineteen years ago)

certainly miss nicky trax for the "acid in the house" track alone.

what about liz fraser and lisa gerrard, were they mentioned? kate is on there without even a hesitation.

so glad someone mentioned sheila e. lisa lisa surely, even as pop as she was, she certainly resonated with a lot of people.

― ebenoit, Friday, 30 March 2007 13:14 (nineteen years ago)

what about jade 4 u?

― ebenoit, Friday, 30 March 2007 13:21 (nineteen years ago)

this thread keeps going and going. it's fantasmagoric.

it should have been called Madonna And Other Things.

― Surmounter, Friday, 30 March 2007 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

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