The Guardian insinuates that Bryan Ferry a Nazi

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Yes, it turns out that the Roxy Music frontman, most recently found releasing an album of Bob Dylan (né Zimmerman) covers, has been giving remarkably ill-advised interviews to the German press in which he reveals, in decorous language, a certain amount of admiration for old Adolf and his crew. And the fact he calls his home office the Führerbunker. The quotes run thusly, translated from the German:

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Interviewer: Do you have a German work ethic?
Ferry: I want to be able to look back on a life in which I have accomplished things. That's why I call my West London studio... actually, wait a minute. I can't tell that to a German...
Interviewer: Fürherbunker?

Ferry: You caught me there. Normally I always make out to German journalists that I call my studio the HQ. That's less objectionable. But the way in which the Nazis stage-managed and presented themselves, my gentlemen! I'm talking about Leni Riefenstahl films and Albert Speer's buildings and the mass rallies and the flags - simply fantastic. Really lovely.

Sadly, Ferry seems to have chosen not to share his views on the aesthetic impact of Bergen-Belsen. But still, there's time. Here's his manager's response to the remarks:

"To suggest a certain appreciation of art and architecture that happens to be associated with the Nazi regime means condoning the actions of that regime is illogical."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:49 (nineteen years ago)

"actually, wait a minute. I can't tell that to a German..."

Why would you tell anyone that? Or name it that in the first place?

― Alex in SF, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:55 (nineteen years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6561177.stm

Singer Bryan Ferry has apologised for an interview in which he praised the iconography of the Nazi party.

The UK star is reported to have told a German newspaper that the "mass marches and the flags" of Hitler's regime were "just fantastic - really beautiful".

Jewish leaders in Britain condemned the comments, and called for Marks and Spencer to drop Ferry as a model.

"I apologise unreservedly," the singer said in a statement, adding he found the Nazi regime "evil and abhorrent".

According to press reports, the 61-year-old told the Welt Am Sonntag newspaper last month: "The way that the Nazis staged themselves and presented themselves, my Lord!

"I'm talking about the films of Leni Riefenstahl and the buildings of Albert Speer and the mass marches and the flags. Just fantastic - really beautiful."

'Deeply insensitive'

Riefenstahl was a German film-maker who became notorious for her Nazi propaganda films. Speer was Adolf Hitler's chief architect and minister for armaments during World War II.

In a statement released on his behalf, Ferry said he was "deeply upset" by the publicity surrounding the interview.

"I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused by my comments on Nazi iconography, which were solely made from an art history perspective," he said.

"I, like every right-minded individual, find the Nazi regime, and all it stood for, evil and abhorrent."

"We do welcome the fact that he has issued a swift comment that there was no intention to condone the Nazi regime," said Jeremy Newmark, chief executive of the Jewish Leadership Council.

"Nevertheless, his choice of language was deeply insensitive," he added.

Lord Greville Janner, vice-president of the World Jewish Congress, told Reuters news agency: "His apology was total, appropriate and absolutely necessary.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

to be fair alfred, this was dim of him.

that said anyone who likes soviet art can line up with ferry.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:58 (nineteen years ago)

I wonder what his son will say about it.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

lol at john harris discussing it on front row.

― acrobat, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

His son will send him to the camps.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

To kill foxes?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

"Foxes are very much the Jews of the animal world"

― Dom Passantino, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:12 (nineteen years ago)

Nazis would shop for clothes at M&S tbf.

― Mister Craig, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

soviet art?

― RJG, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

yeah. is there a big difference between eisenstein extolling "collectivization" and riefenstahl's films?

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:29 (nineteen years ago)

depends whether you want there to be or not, I suppose

― RJG, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:32 (nineteen years ago)

There's quite a lot of difference between admiring their art and being pro-genocide.

― Noodle Vague, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:32 (nineteen years ago)

when the art is in favour of the political programme of the regime that funds it, it's a pretty fine distinction?

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's fair to judge that one can separate intention and commision from the artefact itself. Distasteful, yes, but possible. I'm not a Christian but I find Exeter cathedral to be a magnificent piece of architecture.

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:44 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not a hooligan but I've owned a 70s style Roma shirt for years.

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not a hooligan but I've owned a 70s style Roma shirt for years.

wait explain

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

Roma fans causing trouble at the games with Man Utd over the last fortnight - me being a Roma fan and not condoning that behaviour.

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

um TS directing film to glorify regime + policies vs wearing a football shirt.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

what do the roma shirts look like

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:56 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not saying that they're equal gestures in any way whatsoever; I'm just saying that one can separate what somethings means and was produced for and represents from both what it is and other things which it represents. We are human beings, we can distinguish between intellect and emotion.

x-post; um, crimson, with some gold. Nice.

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:57 (nineteen years ago)

was bryan ferry ever interviewed by don imus?!?

― Eisbaer, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:58 (nineteen years ago)

OK, more apt would be to say "I can recognise that Paulo Di Canio is [was] a very talented footballer who scored some sublime goals, even though he is also a referee-shoving fascist".

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:58 (nineteen years ago)

the easiest way out would be to claim "my sarcasm was lost in translation"

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

There is that too.

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, to be honest I kinda do think being all enamored of fascist aesthetics does start you down the road to actually being a fascist. Aesthetics aren't meaningless! Fascism has been fairly aptly described as "the aestheticization of politics!" Obviously you can find the architecture or the uniforms well-designed without endorsing genocide, but being stirred by something like a torchlight rally actually does mean responding positively to a bunch of stuff beyond aesthetics, like the presentation of people as a uniform, disciplined force, cleansing itself of "impurities," vigorously striving toward the exaltation of its central uniform character ... and seriously, even if you're totally ignorant of history and politics, how good you feel about those gut-level fascist ideas is going to inform whether you watch the Nuremberg rally and think it seems "amazingly cool" or "amazingly scary."

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

I think if we start ignoring art produced by unpleasant people/societies/cultures then we mightn't find much art left to appreciate.

― Noodle Vague, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:09 (nineteen years ago)

Or name it that in the first place?

don't lots of people refer to isolated locations in which they do stuff and go a bit mental as being bunker-like, implying an association with Hitler going mad at the end of the war in his bunker?

Or maybe not.

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:11 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

I mean, anyone with any kind of modern democratic spirit, when confronted with the image of interchangeable volk subsumed into this giant heaving fervid Fuhrer-loyal monster-truck of POWER, should be totally creeped out. And you can't really separate any purely "aesthetic" element from that, because that IS the aesthetic.

Haha Noodle that's irrelevant -- Ferry's not saying "oh well certain artists produced great work during this era," he's specifically saying the overall aesthetic style of German fascism appeals to him. Again, that's not exactly an endorsement of genocide, but it's an endorsement of aesthetic messages that get there eventually, which is just lame and evidence of really bad aesthetic taste.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

Post your Laibach pics here.

― Jena, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

Being impressed by Nazi rallies is a bit fucking lame.

I have no problem with aesthetics removed from their source and appropriated, but saying, essentially 'them Nazi's sure knew how to put on a rally!' I mean, ffs. It's not just aesthetics, he's admiring their balls.

― Mister Craig, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:19 (nineteen years ago)

xxpost

I don't know. I think that one of the creepy things about totalitarian ideologies like Fascism or Soviet Communism is that their utopian elements can appeal to something in people who're repulsed by their racist or murderous consequences.

― Noodle Vague, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

Ferry is a total control freak about image, presentation, and the power of performance...just like the Nazis. I think his fascination/interest goes beyond politics in the sense that, Ferry is impressed by the same thing American ad execs in the 50s were impressed by: the Nazi's ability -- through ritualistic marketing, self-promotion, and spectacle -- to make a mass of people believe and do certain things.

I know that sounds like fruity occult talk, and I'm not condoning Ferry's opinions; I'm not mentioning an angle.

― QuantumNoise, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:42 (nineteen years ago)

goes beyond politics in the sense that

this sounds vague in retrospect. strike it for now, because it's more complicated then that.

― QuantumNoise, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:43 (nineteen years ago)

I'm JUST mentioning an angle...thanks

― QuantumNoise, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:44 (nineteen years ago)

poor bryan, always trying to catch up with bowie

― chris, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:55 (nineteen years ago)

[image][Removed Illegal Link]

Second from the left?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:03 (nineteen years ago)

bah

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133p/133p04papers/133p04papimg/HitlerYouth.jpg

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:03 (nineteen years ago)

But Noodle, exactly how firmly can you separate the "Utopianism" from Nazi Germany from the "racism" of Nazi Germany? The removal of "impure" elements from the body politic was PART of the Utopianism -- it was a racist Utopia! The genocide wasn't like collateral damage in the search for a Utopian end, it was part and parcel of the Utopian vision. And I think that sort of thing is totally present in the aesthetics and the iconography: there comes a point in exalting the uniformity of the "pure" where any halfway non-ignorant observer goes "WTF, what are you guys about to do with things that deviate from this?"

Hahaha similarly, umm, not that I've seen it, but this is why I imagine that anyone who thinks The 300 is just flatly OMG cool has just had his/her fascist centers tapped into.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:07 (nineteen years ago)

the Nazi utopia/aesthetic being inherently racist differentiates it from Soviet utopia/aesthetic. just a minor point I felt compelled to make, as a lover of soviet propaganda art/design/film.

(note: Shakey Mo does not endorse starving Ukrainians or party purges)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:14 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

300, like Starship Troopers, is an example of how Fascism can be portrayed glamorously without making its racist centre immediately obvious, just like the Nazis did. Of course it's ultimately repellent but I don't think we should deny that there's something there designed to seduce people's basest longings - even when those base longings are confused with "nobility". QuantumNoise is getting at part of what I'm thinking - there's a horrified fascination in just how effective Nazi propaganda was. I'm thinking in terms of the way it warped the people who experienced it first hand rather than modern day teenagers trying to be shocking.

― Noodle Vague, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

Hahaha Noodle possibly we are in agreement. You're describing them as "people's basest longings" -- I think my point here is that when someone is really uncritically into that shit, it's not entirely out of line for us to imagine they have some seriously base longings!

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:29 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/books/review/James.t.html?ex=1332475200&en=91ddf535e40e2ce1&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

― m coleman, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:34 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think we're seriously in disagreement. Ferry certainly doesn't seem to have been uncritical here, he was very quick to unambiguously denounce Nazism, unlike some other pop cultural figures that spring to mind.

A problem I guess is that Nazism proper didn't produce much important culture - except in terms of people like Lang or Brecht reacting against it. But Sparta, for instance, indirectly produced Plato and all his crypto-fascist admirers down the centuries. And I feel like his work is serious and seductive enough that it ought to be engaged with, even to the point of trying to empathise with it, if only to reject it.

― Noodle Vague, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:39 (nineteen years ago)

I remember Accentmonkey once saying that the thing with, say, Queen's One Vision is not that it is like a Nazi rally, but that Nazi rallies are like big rock concerts.

300, like Starship Troopers, is an example of how Fascism can be portrayed glamorously without making its racist centre immediately obvious, just like the Nazis did.

eh, the racist centre of Starship Troopers is actually very obvious to anyone with half a brain. This is largely the point of the film.

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

was bryan ferry ever interviewed by don imus?!?

Come on, man! Would Ferry ever be seen next to a creature with such appalling hair and clothes?!

I mean, anyone with any kind of modern democratic spirit, when confronted with the image of interchangeable volk subsumed into this giant heaving fervid Fuhrer-loyal monster-truck of POWER, should be totally creeped out. And you can't really separate any purely "aesthetic" element from that, because that IS the aesthetic.

Songtag's "Fascinating Fascism" tries to parse this notion, and ultimately she doesn't answer the question either.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

I think she kinda does, actually!

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:49 (nineteen years ago)

I kinda do think being all enamored of fascist aesthetics does start you down the road to actually being a fascist.

Nabisco! I think it's dangerous to place oneself outside of the possibility of being enamored of aesthetics that lead to fascism. I don't think that people ultimately complicit with fascism, even those as smart as you, necessarily knew what they were getting into - and we might not either. Torch rallies and massive architecture are now both fascist and caricatures of fascism, and I'm going to assume that's the level at which Ferry is approaching them (note also New Order's tricky relationship with certain imagery and terms). However, who knows what might stir the dormant fascism that I generally believe is potential in all of us? I think it's generally harder to see than renting a Leni Riefenstahl.

― Spencer Chow, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:53 (nineteen years ago)

I'm sure you know all this, just sort of saying it for the record I guess.

― Spencer Chow, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:12 (nineteen years ago)

The fascination with fascism is the fascination with power; that's the virtue its architecture and art incarnate. Look at neo-fascists like Ayn Rand.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

i'm too tired to argue about the politics of the aesthetic (or indeed the aesthetic of politics); suffice it to say that i consider myself an intelligent enough human being to be able to temporarily divorce eye from brain and appreciate something on a purely aesthetic level for a couple of moments before sense and "meaning" and associated horror kick back in. but it's a very fine balancing act and, much as i love new order and their own early austerity, it still makes me kinda uneasy after all this time. "start you down the road to actually being" ... yeh, the more i think about that, the more i suppose i agree.

however, let's not overlook the fact that this isn't simply a question of ferry having a bit of a sneaking admiration for the buildings of albert speer. this is a man who calls his fucking office the fuehrerbunker. which makes him a towering phallus.

― grimly fiendish, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, well, I should admit that I was 3/4 kidding about "does start you down the road to actually being a fascist." But seriously, though, I'm interested in the way the aesthetics of this stuff, or any ideology, aren't just a whole separate issue from the political/ideological stuff -- I'm not pretending there's not loads of slippage and room for smart, critical people to see the "beauty" of the aesthetic, but there's a definite connection. (This is why Nazis would totally not work in UN peacekeeper unforms, and UN peacekeepers would totally not work in S.S. uniforms.)

Part of it is that we can have aesthetic appreciations for ideals we don't actually have, or even things that frighten us or make us uncomfortable, or things that are fantasy -- we're constantly enjoying the aestheticization of "power," even though most of us don't actually want to or condone kicking people's asses or whatever. And in the world of aesthetics we sometimes like things that are fearsome, in part because they're not real, and I think lots of people now start to watch Nazi footage in that way. All, yeah, understood.

But really -- I know that hindsight and caricature play into this -- but Nazi iconography really does seem linked with Nazi ideology. Not even by planning: it seems like a natural expression of a whole public aesthetic ideal that led to fascism! Because something like fascism doesn't succeed by convincing people ideologically, it succeeds by convincing them aesthetically -- through images of power, nationalistic tradition (often agrarian), and threatening impure elements, images of striving and purification and ... well, all the Utopian stuff discussed above.

(An interesting difference between German fascism and Soviet communism, actually: the Germans succeeded in their aesthetic appeal to themselves, and the memorable focus of their slaughter is actually the people they set out to slaughter. Communism made an ideological appeal, much more than the aesthetic one, and the memorable focus of its slaughter is exactly the opposite -- it had to slaughter its own dissidents, those insufficiently in line with the ideology!) (Though to be fair the German appeal was an easier one, being essentially conservative, whereas the Soviet appeal was for sweeping change, which is always harder.)

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

{i}Nazi iconography really does seem linked with Nazi ideology[/i]

That's the nature of totalitarianism, right -- the subsuming of all facets of humankind before the will of the Leader?

We're making too big a deal of Ferry's statements. Like Bowie's absurd comments in the mid seventies this is another case of a rock star thoughtlessly expressing admiration for really cool uniforms and hair. That Ferry, more than other stars, seems more susceptible than others should be no surprise.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:00 (nineteen years ago)

I think we all agree this is much ado about nothing insofar as nobody expects Ferry to advocate the murder of Jews or lament the passing of Oswald Mosley or anything - but it does raise interesting questions about fascist aesthetics (which I am about to get into big time with Moorcock's "The Vengeance of Rome") so I'm glad its fostered some of that discussion.

Nabisco OTM about (one of) the essential differences between German/Russian aesthetics.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:16 (nineteen years ago)

We're making too big a deal of Ferry's statements. Like Bowie's absurd comments in the mid seventies this is another case of a rock star thoughtlessly expressing admiration for really cool uniforms and hair. That Ferry, more than other stars, seems more susceptible than others should be no surprise.

8080

i mean, i'm interested to read about the aesthetics of fascism, but for anyone to suppose that Ferry is an out and out fascist is totally fucking bonkers

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:28 (nineteen years ago)

It's still touching to still read his rather strained assurances that he remains a Geordie at heart.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

Calling yr office the fuhrerbunker just strikes me as the kind of dorky joke someone of a certain generation or older wd make, the other stuff doesn't strike me as being particularly contentious either, & I suspect that if someone other than Ferry were to come out w/it (like iggy, or bbby glssp, for example) it would be seen as charming, or passed over w/o much comment. Ferry is an easy target b/c he seems like a daft old tory fart & also seems to be a bit of a crepe & a dickhead. It seems to me to be a double standard. A "cool" person would get away w/this, and uncool person is bordering on being Rudolf Hess, or summat.

Ridicule is and always has been the best weapon against fascism, I think. Hilter-eating-watermelon.jpg is a better response to the nazis that writing copy for the guardian or the bbc about how unacceptable it is for ferry to dig reifenstahl or speer. (anyway, "Triumph of the will" is shit, and so were speer's building designs, feh)

Yours, posting loaded again...

― Pashmina, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:43 (nineteen years ago)

It's political correctness gone mad!

It's patently fucking obvious what Ferry's getting at here. Anyone that says otherwise is so obviously lining between the reads.

― Huey in Melbourne, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:04 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.throbbing-gristle.com/tg/pics/tg1981.jpg

― am0n, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:10 (nineteen years ago)

brits get irony except when its nazis

― am0n, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:12 (nineteen years ago)

*it's ;*)

― am0n, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:15 (nineteen years ago)

The Guardian is such a rag.

― Huey in Melbourne, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:27 (nineteen years ago)

"I think if we start ignoring art produced by unpleasant people/societies/cultures then we mightn't find much art left to appreciate"

so OTM: for example, "I don't like Aztec pyramids because lots of people were sacrificed there".
Its obviously true that 20th century totalitariansim has always been very interested in creating powerful, fascinating aesthetics - still, Riefenstahl and Eisenstein are excellent directors despite the fact they supported horrible regimes. This makes their work at the same time beautiful and dangerous but art very often is ideologically slippery.
Also, I'm not really convinced that "something like fascism doesn't succeed by convincing people ideologically, it succeeds by convincing them aesthetically". Nazi ideology was cruelly simplistic, just like Leninism was a simplistic departure from Marxist orthodoxy: still, both Nazism and Leninism were so successful because of their political contents. And I think this says a lot about Europe at the time.

"(Though to be fair the German appeal was an easier one, being essentially conservative, whereas the Soviet appeal was for sweeping change, which is always harder)"

Frankly I find quite hard to define the Nazi regime a "conservative" one: the way Nazis approached power, politics, violence and aesthetics was authentically modern and totally in line with the then current Zeitgeist. Nazism, unlike other European fascisms, wasn't simply reactionary: it was a rejection of the status quo and the promise of a new world. Some of its ideological elements could have been "traditional", but the synthesis was completely, scarily new.
Totalitarianism is the real face of the last century and its cultural temptations.

― Marco Damiani, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 05:48 (nineteen years ago)

I have no problem with aesthetics removed from their source and appropriated, but saying, essentially 'them Nazi's sure knew how to put on a rally!' I mean, ffs. It's not just aesthetics, he's admiring their balls.

I think it's more like admiring someone's rhetoric while still thinking it's utter nonsense.

the Nazi utopia/aesthetic being inherently racist differentiates it from Soviet utopia/aesthetic.

No, it doesn't really and they both have similar backgrounds. Red China initially had a lot of racist rhetoric going for it (one of its flags had five stripes for the very reason that the Chinese bought into the idea that they were of five superior races) and Stalin even appealed to it when he dismissed conflicts of race by saying, "Am I not a fellow Asian?" as opposed to whatever the Chinese thought made you a racial brother.

Also, without Lenin there is no Hitler from a historical perspective. Lenin's theory of imperialism also comes directly from his reading of J.A. Hobson's book Imperialism: A Study, which is viciously anti-semitic and whose author was known to blame wars on, "a small group of international financiers, chiefly German in origin and Jewish by race." Why does that sound so familiar!?

Lenin's very own comment that antisemitism is the poor man's socialism also means, when you flip it, that socialism is a more sophisticated form of antisemitism. It just substitutes illogical theories about class in favor of illogical theories about race. Why one gets you put in the sinner's bin and the other to the top of the class we'll never know.

The Nazis are thought to be different, if not totally opposite, from Communists in the same way protestants are taught to believe Catholics aren't Christians. One side considers the other to be a complete heresy and thus calls them the total opposite of what they are, even though they look like twins from anybody looking at the outside in.

*this isn't to say that every communist is a nazi or a jew-hater necessarily but if you spend any time looking at the origins of either, like Christianity, you'll notice more similarities and brotherhood than any denominations wants to admit*

― Cunga, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 07:50 (nineteen years ago)

I can't stand it when people refuse to make distinctions for political reasons -- do we have to be for-it-or-agin'-it? The aesthetic and the mass murders are separate things. And that domino theory upthread, that the aesthetic leads to the atrocities, that's just really stretching it.

― Rich Smörgasbord, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:04 (nineteen years ago)

It's a bit like Tim H liking that C&W song about having a US Marines sticker on the back of her SUV for its emotional conviction despite its politics.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:39 (nineteen years ago)

Lenin's very own comment that antisemitism is the poor man's socialism also means, when you flip it, that socialism is a more sophisticated form of antisemitism.

How so? Funny how Socialism has proven to be so popular among Jews.

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:53 (nineteen years ago)

Huey in Melbourne: OTM
Does anyone think that someone in Germany would be crucified, if he'd said he likes the book of Winston Churchill, despite totally destroying Dresden and some other German cities?

― zeus, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:03 (nineteen years ago)

These days you have more chance of being crucified if you say you like the records of Gary Glitter.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:07 (nineteen years ago)

Ferry may be a fox-huntinting obsessed Tory, but it is stretching it a bit too far using those quotes to stamp him as a nazi. Is David Bowie a nazi too? After all he went way further than Ferry in his admiration of Hitler.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:14 (nineteen years ago)

You ought to know.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:15 (nineteen years ago)

re coolnazi lovers getting away with it: bowie has apologised, described himself as "solipsitic twerp", joy div / new order came in for stick... context is important it's not like ferry is some 17 year old! i mean somewhere else i read someone say that if chappelle had said what imus said no one would have cared... like duh. the context here is dude is in cahoots with in no way incredibly right wing country side alliance.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:18 (nineteen years ago)

His ex-wife said publicly that all striking miners should be shot.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:19 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, obviously he is very much an extremely right-oriented Tory. Not doubt about that. But that doesn't make him a nazi.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:21 (nineteen years ago)

And you ought to know.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:22 (nineteen years ago)

Now now

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:26 (nineteen years ago)

Marcello Carlin insinuates that Geir Hongro is a Nazi.

― blueski, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:29 (nineteen years ago)

i don't think ferry's a nazi. i think he's a cock. and maybe an arsehole too.

i still like roxy music, though. i wonder if that's me on the road to becoming a cock, and maybe an arsehole?

The aesthetic and the mass murders are separate things

you might think that. others might find the appropriation of that aesthetic substantially more offensive. i'm sure you understand that.

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:29 (nineteen years ago)

But ILX Admins get accused of being Nazis every day and who is looking out for those little guys?

― blueski, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:30 (nineteen years ago)

Man did talking melody on one song "To Turn You On". Well done!

― the next grozart, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:31 (nineteen years ago)

Marcello Carlin insinuates that Geir Hongro is a Nazi.

That's hardly newsworthy, is it?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:33 (nineteen years ago)

Not when there's Kate Middleton's nik-naks to be fretting about.

― blueski, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:33 (nineteen years ago)

"the Nazi utopia/aesthetic being inherently racist differentiates it from Soviet utopia/aesthetic. just a minor point I felt compelled to make, as a lover of soviet propaganda art/design/film.

(note: Shakey Mo does not endorse starving Ukrainians or party purges)

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:14 AM (13 hours ago)"

right so there was nothing at all racist about the soviets extending their empire into the baltic states, finland, and the ukraine?

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:37 (nineteen years ago)

"I think if we start ignoring art produced by unpleasant people/societies/cultures then we mightn't find much art left to appreciate"

these are three different things, aren't they? riefenstahl, speer, eisenstein, vertov, were all working directly for evil political regimes. not just unpleasant either. but there are artists who while working in a given society have made art at odds with the regime, or with the general culture. just they're more likely to exist in relatively free societies, less likely in countries where they lock you up/exterminate you for saying the wrong thing.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:45 (nineteen years ago)

right so there was nothing at all racist about the soviets extending their empire into the baltic states, finland, and the ukraine?

I don't know, was there? Stalin wasn't a Russian after all.

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:49 (nineteen years ago)

Relatively free societies. A few countries for a couple of hundred years, at best. Everything else evil and worthless, right? Yes Totalitarianism is bad. But your argument seems a bit Panglossian?

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:52 (nineteen years ago)

not really, it's a good achievement that a few countries have had relative freedom for a few centuries.

bolshevik imperialism started way before stalin: the russian civil war wasn't just white v red: the bolsheviks also had to neutralize (destroy) leftists in other countries, ie the ukraine. that was circa 1919, well before the imposed famine. it doesn't really matter if a theory of racial inferiority was involved: in theory soviet communism valued all humans equally.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:01 (nineteen years ago)

But what does this have to with music?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:03 (nineteen years ago)

Lucy Helmore was a Tory; is Ferry?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:07 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah this is the worst Roxy Music thread yet. Boo hiss!

― the next grozart, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:07 (nineteen years ago)

Well, if a strong dislike for anything non-melodic makes me a nazi, I guess Bryan Ferry is a nazi too.

Personally, I would say there were other things considerably more nazi about Adolf Hitler than the fact that he loved Wagner and hated Schönberg, but it is no news Marcello is unable to distinguish between music and politics.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:11 (nineteen years ago)

We know Lucy Helmore is a Tory, and Otis Ferry a twat; but is Ferry a Tory? He's been very careful about making statements.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:13 (nineteen years ago)

"But what does this have to with music?

-- Tom D., Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:03 PM (10 minutes ago)"

it's more a general "why do artfags always get politics wrong" thing.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:14 (nineteen years ago)

He's been very careful about making statements.

Errrrrrrrrr, not that careful it seems

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:15 (nineteen years ago)

A bit less careful than other family members, but I seem to recall he did say something in support of the Tories after the latest fox hunting controversy.

You know, his entire image character with expensive suits and all that high-society "style" suggests he's a Tory. Not that that gives it away though - after all the Kemp brothers participated in Red Wedge (Tony Hadley is a Tory though).

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:17 (nineteen years ago)

you know who'd make sense of this? robin carmody.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:18 (nineteen years ago)

Geir's not a Tory or a racist; just a lunatic with hideously limited taste.

x-post YEAH WHY DON'T WE GET CARMODY HERE, THEN I CAN BE A NAZI TOO.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:19 (nineteen years ago)

me a nazi

-- Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:11 (5 minutes ago)

Condemned out of his own louche mouth.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:19 (nineteen years ago)

Limited? Why? Unlike most people on ILM I love a lot of the white guys with guitars stuff that dominates the front pages of UK music mags. :)

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:20 (nineteen years ago)

"No no, no no no no, no no no no/ There's no limit!"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:24 (nineteen years ago)

Limited, Geir, because you refuse to listen to anything where the emphasis is textural or rhythmic rather than melodic, and you kneejerkingly dismiss almost all African-derived music because of this.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:24 (nineteen years ago)

Limited tastes
Limited perception
Limited imagination

there is no limit to the limitations

― blueski, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:26 (nineteen years ago)

What exactly is "a gottle of Geir" as popularised by generations of ventriloquists?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:29 (nineteen years ago)

geir loves the hip-hop though?

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:32 (nineteen years ago)

and you kneejerkingly dismiss almost all African-derived music because of this.

All of today's popular music is African derived. But the stuff I like is European-derived in addition

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:38 (nineteen years ago)

It's not the opinions, it's the way they're expressed.

― blueski, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:40 (nineteen years ago)

it's more a general "why do artfags always get politics wrong" thing.

Often, yes (I mean, Bryan Ferry, Phil Collins, Rick Wakeman), but Peter Gabriel doesn't seem to have gotten politics very wrong to me.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:44 (nineteen years ago)

Isn't it just that prog-rockers generally are tories by proxy?

― the next grozart, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:48 (nineteen years ago)

Peter Gabriel doesn't seem to have gotten politics very wrong to me.

And what are his politics? Independence for the Colony of Slippermen?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:48 (nineteen years ago)

"out-dated class warriors" and nazi's aren't the same thing southall!

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:49 (nineteen years ago)

Anyway, Ferry is definitely in charge of the advisory panel on Tory celebrity recruitment for the next election, since they can't rely on fading Sunday Night At The London Palladium stars forever.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:51 (nineteen years ago)

His dad and his pit pony will be spinning in their graves

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:52 (nineteen years ago)

When all the world was very young
And mountain magic heavy hung
The supermen would walk in file
Guardians of a loveless isle
And gloomy browed with superfear their tragic endless
lives
Could heave nor sigh
In solemn, perverse serenity, wondrous beings chained to life

Strange games they would play then
No death for the perfect men
Life rolls into one for them
So softly a superGod cries

Where all were minds in uni-thought
Powers weird by mystics taught
No pain, no joy, no power too great
Colossal strength to grasp a fate
Where sad-eyed merment tossed in slumbers
Nightmare dreams no mortal mind could hold
A man would tear his brother's flesh, a chance to die
To turn to mold.

Far out in the red-sky
Far out from the sad eyes
Strange, mad celebration
So softly a supergod cries

Far out in the red-sky
Far out from the sad eyes
Strange, mad celebration
So softly a supergod dies

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:53 (nineteen years ago)

Oh yeah, he's great, I've got all his records at home...

...sorry who is it we're talking about again?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:59 (nineteen years ago)

http://futility.typepad.com/futility/images/nazi1_1.jpg

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:00 (nineteen years ago)

that's interesting marcello. i wonder which way elton john votes. but then social mobility! meritocracy for all! britain is a classless society now! who's looking forward to the concert for diana!!

xpost

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:00 (nineteen years ago)

Conor Oberst

― the next grozart, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:01 (nineteen years ago)

lol phil collins is an artfag?

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:03 (nineteen years ago)

In Geir's world he is

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:05 (nineteen years ago)

Elton John is Tory. He was involved in a Conservative environmental group imaginatively named Conserve along with Sarah Brightman, John Mills and similar.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:07 (nineteen years ago)

"You don't have to be posh to be Tory." That should be their new motto.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:10 (nineteen years ago)

... you just need to be rich"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:12 (nineteen years ago)

Will Carol Thatcher stride out onto the Cameron rally platform, to stand alongside the alleged likes of Charlotte Church, Graham Norton and Ben Elton?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:13 (nineteen years ago)

I like to think that if Paul Weller was a posh Tory, then the Jam would have been called Conserve.

― NickB, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:13 (nineteen years ago)

I suppose they might be able to get Bruce Foxton at a pinch.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:16 (nineteen years ago)

Will Carol Thatcher stride out onto the Cameron rally platform, to stand alongside the alleged likes of Charlotte Church, Graham Norton and Ben Elton?

... and can we arrange for the earth to split open and for the entire platform to disappear down a disused mineshaft (disused because there are no miners anymore)?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:20 (nineteen years ago)

Bryan Ferry set to portray Ron Dixon in revived soap Brookside next year.

"Honest Mich, I'm Nora Nassy."
"Calm down Ron. 'Ey you've dropped something like!"
"Whoops, Scotties!"

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:23 (nineteen years ago)

Jimmy Nail set to portray Bryan Ferry in Roxy Music: For Your Pleasure

Bryan: "Why aye, Eno man, ah cannat believe the noises yor gettin' oot o' that synthesizer. Ah divven't kna how you dee it, man!"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:27 (nineteen years ago)

With Chic Murray as Brian Eno:
"I do it by chewing this brick. But it was a wee bit too orange."

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:32 (nineteen years ago)

Bryan: "Aye, but this is only the forst album Eno, so don't go getting any big ideas like, I'm the main blerk in this band and divven't ye forget it!"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:33 (nineteen years ago)

Tom D just saved the thread.

― the next grozart, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:34 (nineteen years ago)

"these are three different things, aren't they? riefenstahl, speer, eisenstein, vertov, were all working directly for evil political regimes. not just unpleasant either. but there are artists who while working in a given society have made art at odds with the regime, or with the general culture"

This makes them great people, not necessarily good artists. That said, I think that an intellectual (just like everybody else) should be considered responsible of his political positions.

"it doesn't really matter if a theory of racial inferiority was involved: in theory soviet communism valued all humans equally"

Well, that's arguable: Lukacs tried to sell the Russian experience as the birth of a new kind of humanism, but I doubt that Lenin valued ALL humans equally. What happened soon after the October '17 was only the obvious consequence of his political (sorry, "scientific") theories.

― Marco Damiani, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:34 (nineteen years ago)

Enter Terry Sullivan Out Of Brookie as Andy Mackay:
"Calm down, calm down lads! It were that lad Bobby what gave our Brian the funny Bontempi like."

Enter Bobby Gillespie as That Lad Bobby:
"Aye, I built that synthy thing for him when ah was four years auld, just after ah'd exchanged ma Broons annual for the entire Nonesuch electronic music collection. Ma maw gie me a right skelpin'!"

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

Ferry: "Aye and go a bit easy with the feather boas, Eno, we divven't waant people thinking we're a bunch o' porvorts"
(Ross Kemp as) Brian Eno: "Leave it ahhhhhhhhhhtttttt, Bryan!"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:42 (nineteen years ago)

It's James Bolam as Sting!

"I hear youse lot ur havin' truuble findin' a decent bass player, like."

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:07 (nineteen years ago)

Don't give up the day jobs.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:12 (nineteen years ago)

Enter Pam Ayres as Robert Fripp:
"You'm been aaaaavin' trouble voindin' a baze player? That don't zeem roight... whoi don' oi give you John Wetton's vone numberrrrrrrrrr..."

Rodney Bewes as John Wetton:
"No don't do that, I'm not scheduled to join them till 1976"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:15 (nineteen years ago)

"No I can't go to Asia! What'll I tell Thel-ma? I'll feel so geeeel-ty!"

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:05 (nineteen years ago)

Enter Jimmy Clitheroe as Jon Anderson

"By 'eck as like, yer not scheduled to join Asia till 1982, ya daft 'apporth!"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

Isn't it just that prog-rockers generally are tories by proxy?

-- the next grozart, T

No, I don't think so.

― Pashmina, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:35 (nineteen years ago)

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/6243.jpg

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:40 (nineteen years ago)

There's been proles voting for the Tories as long as there's been proles voting, non-shockah.

Cue Robson Green as Fripp.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:16 (nineteen years ago)

responding to some stuff upthread:

there's no question that Soviet Communism was deeply intertwined with racism, anti-semitism, and ethnic rivalries. But there was no consistent racist ideology at all, especially under Stalin (himself a Georgian, who had Ukrainians, Jews, and cossacks serving side by side in his inner circle). The racism expressed under Soviet Communism was of a much more chimeric and opportunistic nature than the Nazism - it changed to suit the circumstances and goals of the Soviet party, and if it was expedient to vilify Jews, or Ukrainians, or Estonians, or whoever, than it was done without a second thought. But that is quite different from the inherently racist ideology of the Nazis.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.angelfire.com/ct3/eternalrequiem/Goggles.jpg

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

nooo :(

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

bandwidth nazis

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:49 (nineteen years ago)

And what are his politics? Independence for the Colony of Slippermen?
You mean you never discovered his work against Apartheid in the 80s?

Oh well, maybe you are one of those who think that you aren't truly radical unless you start playing "black" music. Well, Peter Gabriel did that too. Only his "black" influences were African rather than African American.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

Isn't it just that prog-rockers generally are tories by proxy?

Wrong and nothing but wrong.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

Oh well, maybe you are one of those who think that you aren't truly radical unless you start playing "black" music.

And maybe you're a fucking cretin... no maybes about it really

― Tom D., Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:40 (nineteen years ago)

This week's Geir trolling is so poor that even that fake Comstock last week was better.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:42 (nineteen years ago)

"fake" Comstock

― blueski, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:43 (nineteen years ago)

"Fake" Alexander O'Neal

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:51 (nineteen years ago)

And maybe you're a ~~fucking~~ faking cretin... fixed

― Tom D., Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

"there's no question that Soviet Communism was deeply intertwined with racism, anti-semitism, and ethnic rivalries. But there was no consistent racist ideology at all, especially under Stalin (himself a Georgian, who had Ukrainians, Jews, and cossacks serving side by side in his inner circle). The racism expressed under Soviet Communism was of a much more chimeric and opportunistic nature than the Nazism - it changed to suit the circumstances and goals of the Soviet party, and if it was expedient to vilify Jews, or Ukrainians, or Estonians, or whoever, than it was done without a second thought. But that is quite different from the inherently racist ideology of the Nazis"

I completely agree with you, except for the fact that part of the very essence of Soviet communism was based on the notion of an Enemy (true or imaginary) menacing the purity of the revolution: so it wasn't (at least consciously) racist in a Gobineau/Chamberlain sense, but at the same time it didn't value all humans equally, simply because it couldn't. There was always an Enemy out there to be destroyed: Kerensky, the Kronstadt sailors, the Jewish doctors... - its a long list.

― Marco Damiani, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

Bryan Ferry is on the cover of this month's (or quarter's, or whatever) Saga Magazine. Is this "I like Hitler" thing a desperate attempt to make himself seem "edgy" in the face of the fact that he's a pensioner?

― Scik Mouthy, Saturday, 21 April 2007 06:17 (nineteen years ago)

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