101 reasons why punk sucks

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Punk annoys me. Musically I find it boring and unsubtle, but I also hate the elevated sense of cultural hegemony that it's arisen to. Old punks are starting to become part of the political and media establishment in just the same way as the Baby Boomers have been, and I find their lording it over of popular culture really fucking annoying. Has any musical movement had as many books written about it, aggrandising it as some kind of revolutionary force, as punk? For all its revolution punk strikes me as the most capitalist of genres these days, its supposed Situationist roots now completely and utterly lost. I was born in 1979 and punk has never been anything to me other than a distasteful product.

Do you hate punk?

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:34 (eighteen years ago)

Nope, but I hate Sex Pistols. The Clash did have a lot to offer musically although they weren't neccessarily punk at their best.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:35 (eighteen years ago)

Get off my thread, you weird psycho bot thing.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:37 (eighteen years ago)

Surely The Clash had too much reggae and Motown going on by London Calling for you, psychopath.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:43 (eighteen years ago)

I knew this would be a Louis Jagger thread.

― DJ Mencap, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:50 (eighteen years ago)

I'm gonna email Louis and try to tempt him back.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:52 (eighteen years ago)

How old are you again Nick? I was wondering the other day whether critics a bit younger than me just weren't bothered by punk's cultural presence any more. I think I was thinking of the Lex/Cis/Swygart generationlet though.

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:52 (eighteen years ago)

I'll be 28 next month.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:53 (eighteen years ago)

It does say I was born in 1979 in the original post though!

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:53 (eighteen years ago)

Sicko, we've done this a few times now but whatevs, can always give it a go.

I think like all genres, it's very easy to misunderstand Punk. God knows I've never really had much time for listening to endless three-chord songs about frustration and anger, but you can't really boil Punk down to that. Only a few years ago I was saying exactly the same thing as you "Punk is music who still think it's exciting and rebellious to play regressive aggressive dork music for people with no new ideas" etc... I also got fed up with the way Punk has been assimilated with almost every facet of modern culture and has become the status quo as far as things go.

But soon after I wrote a post on this a few moons ago, I came around to exactly what "Punk" could mean. Yes you've got the Sex Pistols and the Ramones and Sham 69 - all who have a few good tracks but I'd never want to listen to more than three songs in a row. But then it could be argued that Television, the Talking Heads, the Ruts, the Slits count as Punk, and they're all about as far and away from the mindless three-chord anarcho-dirge of their predecessors.

Really it depends on what is defined as Punk. It seems that some people will use it as a catch-all to describe everyone from As Mercenarias to Converge to LCD Soundsystem to Blink182. Others might say that true punk music is the Damned and Black Flag and pretty much on one else. I have Punk friends who claim that the Clash were never a Punk band, which I find remarkable but can sort of understand.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:55 (eighteen years ago)

xposts

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:55 (eighteen years ago)

Ah OK.

I feel it as a bit of a weight, anyway.

xpost I am very dim.

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:56 (eighteen years ago)

do you hate punk?

most of it. but then again, some of it was great. (note past tense) stock genre answer no. 54, but still true.

I've said it many times, but most UK punk sounds really tired and dull now, and I'm too young to know how exciting it was at the time. but the best of the US punk bands - black flag, bad brains, dead kennedys, minor threat - still sound incredibly vital.

what was exciting about punk was its oppositional stance to tedious, complacent mainstream music and culture. it wasn't the first to do so, and certainly not the last. other genres expressed the spirit if not the musical style. rock'n'roll, free jazz, early disco, hip hop in the '80s, then rave, arguably grunge in the '90s, noise these days, and countless others.

but these things in time all become assimilated, become part of the mainstream culture and eventually become bland and predictable. punk was not revolutionary, but just one expression of the inherent urge to find your own culture, one that's more thrilling and fulfilling than that served up by the mass entertainment industry.

― m the g, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:56 (eighteen years ago)

My oppositional stance to tedious, complacent oppositional stances has itself become tedious and complacent by now. :(

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:00 (eighteen years ago)

Apologies for the awful grammar in my last post.

How old are you again Nick? I was wondering the other day whether critics a bit younger than me just weren't bothered by punk's cultural presence any more. I think I was thinking of the Lex/Cis/Swygart generationlet though.

-- Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:52 (2 minutes ago)

This is interesting too. I'm in my mid-late twenties as well and while I understand the cultural significance of the Sex Pistols, I don't think they strike me in the way as they might have struck their original audience. When I was growing up, I saw punks and skinheads just walking around town. A little older and Nirvana and Green Day were staples of mainstream radio. By now, I've gotta say that I find the whole Punk thing incredibly boring and would welcome some more challenging/interesting/less conformist music from the mainstream (I use the word "mainstream" meaning stuff people generally listen to and accept).

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:01 (eighteen years ago)

xpost:

then you have achieved nirvana, my son.

― m the g, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:01 (eighteen years ago)

I would welcome some more challenging/interesting/less conformist music from the mainstream (I use the word "mainstream" meaning stuff people generally listen to and accept).

punk as fuck!

― m the g, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:02 (eighteen years ago)

The problem with conformity and non-conformity is that it's incredibly easy not to conform to a "them" you construct according to yr own specifications, and way harder not to conform to an "us" that becomes your comfort zone.

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:04 (eighteen years ago)

Some punk does actually wrestle with this, it seems to me.

Certainly some punk-inspired writers do.

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:04 (eighteen years ago)

Well you know, when I listened to a lot of Black Metal, I found myself getting desensitised to the initial impact of it. Arguably, with that style of music you kind fo do need to break down a few sonic barriers to get to the meat of it, but after a while it becomes sheets of noise. With Punk though, it's pretty much everywhere these days - in adverts, in people's haircuts - it's unavoidable. But like Kate's post on a different thread about being inspired by 60s music because of its reactionary stance and it's sonic endeavours, as opposed to wanting to go back to the good old days of guitar/bass/drums, Punk is kind of the same isn't it?

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:08 (eighteen years ago)

Surely The Clash had too much reggae and Motown going on by London Calling for you, psychopath.

Well, the use of reggae and Motown (besides pop/pubrock influences) was exactly why "London Calling" was a great album, much better than any punk. But then it wasn't punk anymore.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:10 (eighteen years ago)

It is, if you take it as a philosophical movement rather than a musical / cultural one. What irritates me is how the word "punk" is used in modern discourse; I adore Talking Heads, but when people talk about punk, using it as a signifier for things beyond just music, they sure as hell don't mean what Remain In Light is as a cultural example of open-minded post-modern cultural emancipation 9 times out of 10.

Yes, the idea of "punk" as post-modern force revealing the redemptive obverse of music and of revolutionary culture is appealing to me; but most people do not understand it in that way, which is where my frustration rises from.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:14 (eighteen years ago)

X-post there, obviously. Just assume I am ignoring Geir from now on.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:15 (eighteen years ago)

yeh that makes sense. when you say the word "PUNK" people don't think of David Byrne in a big suit, they think of that guy out of Rancid with the mohawk and the tattoos.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:17 (eighteen years ago)

When you say the word "PUNK" people don't think of David Byrne in a big suit, they think of that guy out of Rancid with the mohawk and the tattoos.

Those who were around during the original punk movement think of neither. But surely not Rancid.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:18 (eighteen years ago)

It's the fact that the canonised version of punk that has seeped into culture with a similar ubiquity to, say, The Beatles's music, is a very dull, unadventurous type of expression in purely formalist terms, however exciting it may once have been philosophically. That philosophical slant has been almost completely absorbed and refracted by capitalism, into revolution-as-product. I've been reading Debord lately and attended a conference on digital copyright in higher education which featured an alarming presentation on identity authentification (essentially national biometric ID cards that combine educational online rights, social network logins, bank details, etcetera will probably be snuck in via the backdoor of higher education), and was having a discussion with my girlfriend's brother (who's a student) about riots, demonstrations, etcetera, and I just cannot see something like France in 1968 (talking about workers' strikes rather than student riots, really) happening today, no matter how bad the economic or political situation is.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:27 (eighteen years ago)

Yes. It's uncool to protest now for young people. Punk and anarchy are for the Dads.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:30 (eighteen years ago)

DAMN! YOU'RE FUCKIN DUMB.

XPOST

― chaki, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:31 (eighteen years ago)

Is that aimed at me?

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:37 (eighteen years ago)

It's aimed at society!

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:40 (eighteen years ago)

Yes. It's uncool to protest now for young people. Punk and anarchy are for the Dads.

Why is this? Is this because kids have been entirely disenfranchised from anything that's come before (by capitalism's instinct to never repeat in order to always generate more product and thus more markets [obv. capitalism allows, loves even, repetetion with variance on a physical level, because it is cheap manufacturing])? Have they seen their dads talk about revolution from their Mondeos once to often and thought "where the fuck did it get you?"

I need to read Stelfox's article now.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 09:49 (eighteen years ago)

1. Is it arguable that today we have a more fragmented society...that makes targets less easy to attack/rebel against

2. rebellion itself is co-opted. and capitalism can benefit from visceral/cultural rebellion as it is not a structural threat to capitalism itself. if it can be bought, repackaged, sold as well, then so much the better. and diy aesthetic isnt opposed to capitalism, it is encouraged. you dont necessarily need to 'sell out', in fact its better if you dont! that way can be co-opted

3. apathy/cynicism. kind of realisation of above

4. many cultural 'battles' merely that, debate of such issues keeps political engine running without disrupting the business of capitalism

5. punks aesthetic never a rebellion against the liberal/capitalist project, but against traditionalist society. punk as vanguard entrepenurial capitalism aesthetic, attack on moralism that inhibits capitalism

― frankie driscoll, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 10:19 (eighteen years ago)

That's what I'm looking for. Point 5 is terrific.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe it's because the Punks won in the end. As above, Punk is now so integral to modern culture that in a strange way it has taken over. But no we don't live in an anarchist state or are even close to the ideologies of Punk. Instead now it's just fine for people to go round with piercings and tattoos and not be considered anti-social. It's a shame how a lot of vast poiltical movements can be accepted so wholeheartedly into a capitalist society.

To derail just slightly but to make a point, take women's lib. The idea was that women would have the right and choice to vote and work. They fought long and hard to achieve this. It made sense - why shouldn't women be allowed to work in the same jobs as men? But these days women DON'T have a choice to work, rather they HAVE to work because it has become the norm. And so now rather than a family surviving on a single income and a full-time parent at home bringing up the children, families sturggle to get by with two overworked parents. If anything this altruistic movement has rebounded by being so accepted.

Going back to pop culture. The hippie movement was run by future yuppies. The Punks of yesterday are now media moguls and fashion designers. They are talking heads on TV shows. They're everywhere, ubiquitous. But they're either not talking about Punk Politics any more (Henry Rollins, Ben Elton), become disgustingly dire and preachy (Bob Geldof, Bono), or they've become cartoon characters (Johnny Rotten).

Young people who protest are mocked by their peers. They come off as uncool flakes who are too busy hiding up trees and eating lentils to relax and have a good time. There is no status in looking at the world through idealistic eyes any more. Nobody has wild hippie orgies any more. Only speccy twots get in moshpits these days. It's just not cool any more. What is cool is driving a bimmer with your sunglasses pushed up on your head and drinking Moet with six nubile models squirming around in the back seat. Why get your hands dirty when you could be living for the moment?

Arguably it could be said that TV programmes like the Young Ones (written by punks but taking the piss out of them at the same time) could have been the nail in the coffin. They became their own worst enemies without knowing it. And this is being reflected in the original post. People under a certain age are sick of their predecessors harping on and on about a revolution that never happened. About how music could be made in a garage on a broken guitar and a drumkit with a hole through it. It's been done before.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

Hooray!

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.altmanphoto.com/Yeah.jpeg

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

are you intimating Lex/Cis/Swygart are representitive of their "generation"? cos i am about the same age and have met plenty of young folk still, to varying degrees, have some degree of veneration for the ideals of punk. though uk '77 seems to have been claimed by "indie" folks, whilst the hardcore kids don't actually really consider it punk!

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:14 (eighteen years ago)

I have no idea how representative they are - they're the first three early 20something critics who sprang to mind (and who I admire).

Remember though that I'm talking about critics, who often aren't representative of anything much.

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)

You are making 'punk' sound like there was a big meeting sometime in 1976 and everybodt agreed an agenda.

It was never as coherent as that and soon fragmented into thousands of pieces - often contradictory.

To castigate such a loose rag-bag of a genre for not overthrowing capitalism misses the point - indeed one of the more common memes was a rejection of the 60s counter-culture claims of peace and love were not to be trusted.

To move more specifically to the music. Yeah a lot of it sounds lame - but recognising that pop music could be a transatory thrill is probably the best legacy. Music in the mid 70s was often thought of as mature and destined to be something that would have a long life - a typical dismisal of bubblegum pop was that, unlike (say) Mike Oldfield, it wouldn't stand the test of time.

The 'test of time' wasn't a common claim for a lot of punk, its suprising that some of it (Buzzcocks, Wire, Adverts) actually still sounds so good to many people.

As for 'punk' in the last 10 years, well I don't like it much, and don't get the point of it so I find it hard to defend. Not sure the problem is that they have hijacked the definition of punk into something less interesting and much narrower or that its just that the bands are all rubbish.

― Sandy Blair, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:16 (eighteen years ago)

Often?!

X-post.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:17 (eighteen years ago)

They're not early 20somethings any more.
xxpost

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:17 (eighteen years ago)

They're all under 25, no?

(HI DERE Lex Cis and WBS)

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:18 (eighteen years ago)

they're no Rod, Jane & Freddy.

― blueski, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:19 (eighteen years ago)

My ten favourite punk records of 1977:

1. Ornette Coleman - Dancing In Your Head
2. David Bowie - Low
3. Kraftwerk - Trans-Europe Express
4. Culture - Two Sevens Clash
5. Brian Eno - Before And After Science
6. Wire - Pink Flag
7. Isipingo - Family Affair
8. Anthony Braxton - The Montreux/Berlin Concerts
9. John Martyn - One World
10. Fleetwood Mac - Rumours

That's punk as I know and understand it.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:24 (eighteen years ago)

but you are suggesting young critics today and then giving those three as an example seems odd. i guess if you threw a cat into the nme office it would run into someone for wh0om an idea of punk, possibly nothing more than "oh yeh man revolution", would mean something. people are still being brought up being told band x is the new punk rock, maybe it means less. grime was the new punk rock wasn't it? i don't know. the thing that makes those three bad examples is that they come from the ilx world, they have been involved in the kid of discourse that reflects on the usefulness of ideas such as punk.

woops i have mis-interpereted what you meant. ah well. i think "punk" the "event" in some senses shrunk in significance a little but then indie writers particuarly seem imo to be in a mindset atm which is not paticuarly backward looking. the music maybe be retrogressive but it doesn't seem like the past itself is being venerated much.

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:37 (eighteen years ago)

Only what sells is venerated.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:39 (eighteen years ago)

no has noticed Maximo Park are the new Inspiral Carpets. they may never write a song as good as "She Comes in the Fall" thou.

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:42 (eighteen years ago)

Well I don't know any NME writers so I didn't want to generalise about them. The impression I get though is in line with yr second para - punk is something obviously cool but not really important, it just happens to align a bit with what they enjoy about now.

There's a definite sense of conviction and belief in the NME's support of the stuff it likes, which there really really wasn't during previous punk 'revivals' and 77 lookbacks, much though we all enjoy S*M*A*S*H now I'm sure.

― Groke, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

there's at once more and less at stake now.

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:45 (eighteen years ago)

only what sells is venerated

velvet underground to thread

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:55 (eighteen years ago)

The VU "sold" Lou Reed, Andy Warhol, Goodyear tyres, sunglasses, the romantic junkie boho artist loft myth, records for current bands, etcetera, just not their own records.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:02 (eighteen years ago)

Thank you for your tedious, simplistic generalities about 3 decades of music made by countless diverse people all of the world, who as noted above, did not get together and have a meeting where they decided this is what "punk" will mean. Using the word "situationist" and mentioning Debord is not enough to make your theory coherent. As for your critique that it is all "boring" and "unsubtle," what do you like Scik?

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:16 (eighteen years ago)

Thank you for being kneejerkingly reactionary about it.

I'm not trying to start a discussion about punk, punkrock, hardcore, postpunk, etcetera, etcetera, as a loose genre of musics made around the world by disparite entities focused on a DIY aesthetic and loud guitars amongst other things, etcetera, etcetera, or whatever. I am talking about the notion of "punk" as adopted and expressed and used as a signifier by the mainstream (British, essentially, what with me being British) media.

On an aesthetic musical level I don't like what that usage of the term "punk" represents, whether it be The Sex Pistols or Green Day or Avril Lavigne. I do like, as mentioned, Talking Heads, Wire, Fugazi, blah blah. And I was also not positing a theory either; I was requesting theories, which we got.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:21 (eighteen years ago)

We did this already:

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=55719

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

YEAH!

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

And this year, too! I think I thought that was in the Sandbox.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

and here: http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=47110

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

Oh there's probably countless other threads doing exactly the same! This one is great though because it has been fun and stimulating TODAY!

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:38 (eighteen years ago)

I just feel like talking about that one bit on Stay Hungry when David Byrne screams "I FEEL LIKE SITTING DOOOOOWWWWWWWWWNNNN!" now. Dunno why, except that it's brilliant.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

I meant "New Feeling" not "Stay Hungry"

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

what was the last major pop-cult / counter cult movement? that pre 9/11 moment when post rock, no logo and actual riots seemed to, impressionable 17 years olds, all be part of the same thing?

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:36 (eighteen years ago)

9/11 may have been the crux really. Suddenly everyone's like "Oh well, we're fucked now and we know we can''t do owt about it".

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:38 (eighteen years ago)

9/11? What's that got to do with anything?

― Tom D., Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:41 (eighteen years ago)

i'd say that the strokes were important on one level. i think post 9/11 a lot of the counter cultural energy was channeled into stop the war stuff but that never seemed cool, no "modern", "hip" bands really spoke out, it was 90s and 80s people who spoke out. remember jack white's "i'm just a musician" quote?

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

Oh there's probably countless other threads doing exactly the same! This one is great though because it has been fun and stimulating TODAY!

-- Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:38 AM (52 minutes ago)

well then let's summarize how they all end up:

guy #1: punk is 3 chord idiocy, and doesn't deserve the props it gets
guy #2: punk is diverse look at bands x,y, and z
guy #1: band x is punk, but band y and z aren't
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
[image flood]

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

(except for that beales thread, that thing is in a league of its own)

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

a '101 reasons why Pink sucks' thread would be better.

― blueski, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

who needs punk when you can listen to embrace?

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

alternate ending

guy #1: punk is 3 chord idiocy, and doesn't deserve the props it gets
guy #2: punk is diverse look at bands x, y, and z
guy #1: band x is punk, but band y and z aren't
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: yes they are
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: paul edward wagemann
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: paul edward wagemann
guy #1: no they're not
guy #2: PAUL EDWARD WAGEMANN

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

9/11 may have been the crux really. Suddenly everyone's like "Oh well, we're fucked now and we know we can''t do owt about it".

-- the next grozart, Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:08 AM (16 minutes ago)

yeah before you mentioned this everyone had been forgeting about 9/11

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

The real problem with our generation is not that rebellion has been co-opted, it's that we can't separate aesthetic-based rebellion from other kinds of rebellion so we fall for the bullshit line that all rebellion has been coopted. If I were to imbue capitalism with motives, I would say it WANTS you to feel like your rebellion has been coopted so you throw your hands up and join the party.

It's arguable that music, art, clothing etc. can never again be rebellious (though there will always be aesthetics popping up that are at least temporarily shocking). But one's ability to refuse, resist etc. can never be coopted, so long as one is willing to differentiate between resisting and being "cool."

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

However, grime.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

I mean the problem is that we can't let go of the idea that rebelling has something to do with the t-shirt you wear and the CDs you buy, that political resistance should come with fashion and sex-appeal. This was ALWAYS a capitalist idea, it just took a couple of decades for most people to realize it.

Meanwhile people are busy rebelling in all kinds of ways that have nothing to do with what body part they pierce.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:07 (eighteen years ago)

For example, the grime movement.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:09 (eighteen years ago)

i think the problem with our generation is there is no public forums to discuss our problems.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

Do I post that we're too busy talking shit about it online to be OUT RIOTING or is that predictable?

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

Neil Fontaine, Terry Winters and The Mechanic to thread.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:13 (eighteen years ago)

If we take Punk as a category that gets filled in, it could be argued that the current mainstream embodiment of Punk is Emo. Is Emo a particularly rebellious form of music? Yes and no I suppose. It's rebellious because:

Parents don't understand it
There's a lot of self-loathing involved (self harm/anorexia)
The kids wear daft clothes

It's not rebellious because:

It hasn't really got a political agenda, unlike most other forms of Punk
At least they're beating themselves up and not the po-lice
The kids wear daft clothes, but this has to be the first time I've seen middle-class well brought up under 16s with lip-piercings, ear tubes, tattoos, expensive clothes and where their parents seem fine with all that.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

remember when the clash started that riot? they really changed things for the better. i think people weren't on the dole so much after that. or else more people were on the dole. which ever is good, i forget. they really changed the world though with their music.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

Hate to disillusion you, but the Clash never started any riots.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

uhhhhhh White Riot, hello???

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.ucscfootball.com/lol.JPG

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

Who is artdamages and why is he trying to destroy this thread with the usual ILX-brand snarky sarcasm, which has thus far been absent?

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

I think you'll find "White Riot" was the title of a song, rather than a riot, as such.

Coxhill, Creme or Tolhurst?

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

It hasn't really got a political agenda, unlike most other forms of Punk

Yea I remember the ska punk aktion of 97 mannnnn

― JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:22 (eighteen years ago)

no the Clash actually had a riot in the studio when they recorded White Riot.

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

who the fuck cares who i am. i don't have to have name recognition to post on ILM.

you started a thread about how you hate an entire genre because it is the most establishment and capitalist of all genres. was i supposed to take that seriously and do a thousand word post about how i disagree?

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

most

who the fuck listened to ska-punk anyway. oh yeah, everyone who wasn't on ilx.

~~wasn't~~ isn't

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

the clash seem to have had quite an effect on (now) middle aged british trade unionists.

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

i still think it's mean that the clash didn't invite the mekons to their riot

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

when i was rioting in the streets where were you

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

when i was eating steak and kidney pie where where you

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

hey man there was no time to be considerate in 77

― pretzel walrus, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

everyone, just Stay Free okay?

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

who the fuck cares who i am. i don't have to have name recognition to post on ILM.

you started a thread about how you hate an entire genre because it is the most establishment and capitalist of all genres. was i supposed to take that seriously and do a thousand word post about how i disagree?

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

sly stone really jumped the gun on that one, i mean he musta been hanging around rioting by himself for like six years before the clash even got there.

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

And then Atari Teenage Riot turned up and were all "Huh?"

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

That's not what the thread's about if you've read any of it, and yes, I would much have preferred it if you had taken some time to put together some reasoned points rather than surfing in and acting like a total fucking prick in the midst of what has been a preety interesting discussion.

-- Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (7 minutes ago)

ok well i most of the thread and wasn't surprised to find it interesting at all.

i think genres and movements in art all have life cycles and don't find it particularly surprising that punk and old punks would become the establishment cuz they are old. i also don't understand what you mean when you say punk is or became capitalist. what else would it be? wasn't punk pretty entrepreneurial from the start? etc.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

see i can be literate. i tried.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

I think Scik Mouthy's more annoyed with the fact that since Punk broke it's become this de facto aesthetic that has to be adhered to to be cool. I.e. DIY, anti-establishment, anti-intellectualism, pro-simplification, conservative sound is cool. Excessive production, intellectual lyrics, prog guitar solos, weird instruments etc aren't seen as cool.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:51 (eighteen years ago)

That's what I find interesting; the juxtaposition of punk being both entrepreneurial from the start, and also anti-establishment. Isn't the biggest and most insideous establishment, the most dehumanising one, capitalism? Obviously we're past overthrowing it (or are we just saying that because rebellion's been co-opted, as suggested?), but can and does punk work within it (Fugazi, Dischord, etcetera) and if it does, and is successful at that (where success = not just financial solvency and growth but the maintenance of some level of idealism within that), why is the mainstream media's projection of punk, and I'm thinking of comfortable British 40&50-something music journalists who would have considered themselves radical and revolutionary, etcetera, in their punk youths, now so content to write columns for The Times or bad lad-lit. or self-indulgent books about their relationship with Kylie Minogue? How is that punk? Do these people still self-identify as punks? They seem to. How is that possible?

I admit I watched The Edukators and read some Debord and had a weird dream prior to starting this thread!

I am not anti-punk (the thing about it being predictable and unimaginitive is a red-herring, and refers to the musical signifieds that "punk" has come to represent, not a lot of the actual music that stems outwards from that); I'm just intrigued by these hypocricies and developments and wanted to start a thread with a hook to get people in.

Double x-post.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, grozart OTM. (Who are you, too? I lost track of everyone in nu-ILX.)

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

For all its revolution punk strikes me as the most capitalist of genres these days

you guys seem to be discussing british punk more than american, but i don't find this to be true today in america at all...most of the hardcore scene, at least here in minneapolis is really not looking to engage the mainstream at all...most "big" punk shows don't even happen in "proper" venues, it's mostly kids running house basement shows or weird art collective spaces...lots of times promoted through this bookstore called Arise! which sells leftie propaganda, etc etc...lots of CD-R, handmade artwork or still 7 inches...we have a non-profit store here called Extreme Noise that runs with all volunteer workers.

I have a lot to say about this, but I'm not sure I have time to write it out, and also I guess my viewpoint is way too Midwester and American for what you're talking about on this thread.

But, to be brief, punk means a lot to me, not because I'm still listening exclusively to like Dag Nasty or Circle Jerks records, but because it made me feel like making music was something accessible to me on a small, local level and that I didn't need to be a "professional" musician to do it. All of my friends (which is a lot) that play music here would agree, even if now they are doing techno music, or noise rock, or folk, or new wave, or weird math metal, etc etc.

I hate stupid crappy "street punk" junk as much as anyone, like shit like this:

http://www.angelcityoutcasts.com/

So...I guess I'm not going to be brief now, but I know a lot "first gen" older punk dudes here and they are by no means as stereotypically narrow in their tastes as this thread seems to claim...the older ones were already into Bowie and Alice Cooper etc etc before punk, and we often talk about weird obscuro 70s rock like Sir Lord Baltimore, Edgar Broughton, etc....they all seem to like reggae and synth pop and prog and (esp) krautrock and jazz and free jazz..

I guess I don't really know who people are talking about on this thread, because there's been some good discussion but none of it really rings true for me, at all. There are those knucklehead Social D worshipping dudes but they are a small, small crowd.

AND...there's also a ton of great stuff being made to day that does fall under the hard, fast, loud more trad punk or hardcore traditions.

people have brought up a ton of it on my Rolling Punk thread, which I'd encourage people to check out and see what's going on. It might surprise you.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

OTM. i think we are talking about a mythical punk strawman and old punk in england neither of which i am familiar with.

<i>I think Scik Mouthy's more annoyed with the fact that since Punk broke it's become this de facto aesthetic that has to be adhered to to be cool. I.e. DIY, anti-establishment, anti-intellectualism, pro-simplification, conservative sound is cool</i>

my point still stands. this always happens w/everything.

<i>Excessive production, intellectual lyrics, prog guitar solos, weird instruments etc aren't seen as cool.</i>

yeah, but theres always been punks who thought this stuff was cool, too. didn't this all go down like the minute after punk happened?

sniffin glue--->alternative TV.

are sweeping generalizations are cool?

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:00 (eighteen years ago)

I think American and UK punk are totally different, but equally interesting. I think the geographical scale of the US means that things can exist on microcosmic levels, and that kind of local punk community thing you describe, people making their own music outside the business, is possible in a way it kind of isn't over here. It tries, but ultimately towns and cities are so small and so close and the country physically and population-wise so much smaller than the US that anything getting any kind of attention or making waves is suddenly national. Arctic Monkeys!

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:01 (eighteen years ago)

you guys didn't have a hardcore equivalent (unless you count 'ardkore i guess?). i will never understand british people.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

Man, British music is so fucked up right now compared to the states it makes me sick. Matt's post makes me wonder what the fuck we're all doing lauding it over all the bullshit that comes out in the UK right now.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

or post punk. i guess that and hardcore officially ended around the same time. but yeah, different. (xpost)

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

hardcore exists in england nick! small scenes which have fuck all to do with 77 style mythologising.

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

Like I say, people have tried, but anything we have had has been filtered through from America, and our cultures and landscapes are so different it can't work in any comparable way.

Triple X.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

Where, Paul?! I don't see them! I don't hear about them. Touches, yes, but not much.

It just struck me that a comparable might be something like the F-ire collective - Acoustic Ladyland, Polar Bear, Fulborn Teversham, etcetera.

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:06 (eighteen years ago)

uh also huge differences in perceptions and realities of enterpenurialism and capitalism in england and us (small biz=/capitalism or at least Capitalism or Late Capitalism or whatever). im really not into talking about it and being all serious and have to eat lunch now.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:06 (eighteen years ago)

Well I'm about to leave work to go home, so there we go...

― Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

Nick: The Exploited, Discharge, GBH. We have metalcore nowadays instead. That's a good genre.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

most major towns have a DIY scene. i don't think you'd like the music but it's there. swygart knows people in leeds who are very into it all and yes it is very political, though it seems a bit libertarian for my tastes.

― acrobat, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

most

who the fuck listened to ska-punk anyway. oh yeah, everyone who wasn't on ilx.

wasn't isn't

-- the next grozart, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:25 AM (57 minutes ago)

Dear sir,

Please list forms of punk and their political agendas

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

That's what I find interesting; the juxtaposition of punk being both entrepreneurial from the start, and also anti-establishment.

don't forget capitalism itself was pretty anti-establishment. by 1977 that establishment had largely been subsumed, but its image, its standing, its illusion, still loomed large. the deferent society! this was not a facet of capitalism, but internalized trappings of the establishment...know your place.

punk was against all this

so was capitalism. the deferent society...is not good for business!

― frankie driscoll, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

I'm thinking of comfortable British 40&50-something music journalists who would have considered themselves radical and revolutionary, etcetera, in their punk youths, now so content to write columns for The Times or bad lad-lit. or self-indulgent books about their relationship with Kylie Minogue? How is that punk?

As a 40&50-something who self identified as a punk in 77 let me explain the above phenomenon. These people are arseholes. Within their strident self-aggrandizement they may include their life-style choices as part of their definition of punk.

You don't need to include writing a column for the Times as being part of your definition of punk, most people don't.

― Sandy Blair, Thursday, 19 April 2007 06:42 (eighteen years ago)

who the fuck listened to ska-punk anyway. oh yeah, everyone who wasn't on ilx.

I listen to ska-punk. My wife and I had our first date at a Ska Is Dead show.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Thursday, 19 April 2007 06:48 (eighteen years ago)

The problem in the UK is that the definitions of punk that I've exressed above, those things ARE seen as punk, and that kind of punk is now seen as establishment.

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 19 April 2007 08:47 (eighteen years ago)

people are using 'capitalism' to mean 'money economy'.

do you really feel punk is that 'present' nick? it seemed worse during britpop. i guess i've unplugged a bit but the kind of punk signifiers you get from razorlight or babyshambles or donny tourettes are so far removed from the late '70s it's unreal. in a way i think those bands make it *easier* to like actual punk records.

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 19 April 2007 08:54 (eighteen years ago)

"What is cool is driving a bimmer with your sunglasses pushed up on your head and drinking Moet with six nubile models squirming around in the back seat."

wish i was cool :(

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 19 April 2007 08:56 (eighteen years ago)

We might be getting some snow over the May bank holiday.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 19 April 2007 09:05 (eighteen years ago)

drinking while driving is NOT COOL

― blueski, Thursday, 19 April 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

but is it punk rock?

― the next grozart, Thursday, 19 April 2007 11:49 (eighteen years ago)

Ask BBC 6Music, currently celebrating the 250th anniversary of the release of the first Clash album.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:09 (eighteen years ago)

Funny, I've been thinking of listening to that album again, I haven't heard it in centuries

― Tom D., Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:11 (eighteen years ago)

The classic Clash album which was played so much on BBC radio when it was new.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:12 (eighteen years ago)

I like the concept of punk, but find 90% of the so called punk bands just boring. And the first Clash album was of course punk, and I loved when I was 17, but now I'm over 30 and haven't listened it for years. So it goes.

― zeus, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:34 (eighteen years ago)

No, "So It Goes" was Nick Lowe, also much loved on BBC 6Music.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:36 (eighteen years ago)

I like the concept of punk, but find 90% of the so called punk bands just boring

So 10% aren't boring? That's a pretty good strike rate!

― Tom D., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:46 (eighteen years ago)

Erm... 90% of the punk bands I've heard.

― zeus, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

When released in April 1977, The Clash reached #12 in the UK album charts.

Among the artists who kept the record out of the top ten were Barbra Streisand, Mr Acker Bilk, Smokie and the Muppets.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:09 (eighteen years ago)

I wrote a long intelligent post about a minute ago, but the internet ate it. The basic gist was: punk in it's ideal form didn't suck, but the repercussions of telling untold legions of special-ed students that "anyone can play music" are grievous.

I then found this snippet about the drummer from the Germs (underneath the Fallout Boy piece):

http://www.sdreader.com/published/current/blurt.html

It's the final quote that gets me. He sort of encapsulates the whole spirit of punk right there.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

1. Because it's pop music, but too many of the people who play it pretend it isn't.

2. Because instead of being the bold new revitalization of rock music that it promised to be, it was really just a reductive reaction to the more ambitious rock acts of the time.

post-punk is a different story. But is post-punk just punk music by people who can play their instruments?

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)

is no wave post punk

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

ts: ilm "debates" on punk rock vs. ile "debates" on gun control

― pretzel walrus, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:59 (eighteen years ago)

ts: people posting generalities based on received "wisdom" about shit that happened 30 yrs ago vs. people that have actually been to an actual "punk" show in the last 5 years

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:21 (eighteen years ago)

ts: people using quotes for no reason vs. people actually responding to the thread's title

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:23 (eighteen years ago)

people who say "ts" but know the answer

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)

transsexual?

― pretzel walrus, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)

"people who say "ts" but know the answer"

vs. ?

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)

mothra?

actually fake quotes are a bullshit tactic! i shouldn't have used them.

if anything, this thread to me just proves that saying any genre is "dead" or "sucks" is generally wrong...it always seems to me that most of the people that thing [Genre X] is "dead" are people that don't pay attention..like people thing modern country is some sort of vast wasteland, except all the dudes actually discussing it on the rolling country thread or my friend nate who just made me a mix CD of a bunch of good modern (not alt) country doodz that's actually really great....Jazz is "dead" except to everyone freaking out about the new Ornette Coleman record....metal "sucks" except to everyone who actually knows what's going on in the rolling metal thread...

so yep, punk sucks, except there's like 8 million punk bands making music now that DON'T suck and bunches of cool people doing cool things all over the US and around the world. The only punk that sucks is the punk that...sucks...and just ignore that shit and yr fine.

fuck, i just used a bunch more fake quotes, i gotta damn problem with that :(

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

2. Because instead of being the bold new revitalization of rock music that it promised to be, it was really just a reductive reaction to the more ambitious rock acts of the time.

Isn't this a myth too?

In fact, punk was considerably more of a reaction against Stadium AOR than against progressive rock. Plus, to most punk fans, it was first and foremost an alternative to disco.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

"alternative to disco"

I'm sure all those punks would be listening to Sabbath if punk wasn't around, not disco.

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

"In fact, punk was considerably more of a reaction against Stadium AOR than against progressive rock. Plus, to most punk fans, it was first and foremost an alternative to disco."

I consider stadium AOR and disco to both be very ambitious.

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 19 April 2007 21:44 (eighteen years ago)

punk isn't a style of music, its a method of production

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 22:31 (eighteen years ago)

six months pass...

gay

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 02:22 (seventeen years ago)

(directed at the thread, not the genre)

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 02:24 (seventeen years ago)

punk is gay too, though.

― pipecock, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 02:45 (seventeen years ago)

Only if you're Pansy Division

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 02:45 (seventeen years ago)

or any number of other flaming bands. though it is gay in the other bad way, too.

― pipecock, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 02:47 (seventeen years ago)

I like Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Black Flag. Most punk is dull and drunk and thuddy. I prefer taut and sinewy and volatile. In college I used to get annoyed at the cultural hegemony of punk among non-frat white kids, but I went to school in lolJersey.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 03:19 (seventeen years ago)

Every once in a while I'll throw on ramones first album, dead boys, stooges, germs. It's all dumb fun, and mixes things up from the other stuff I listen to.

― filthy dylan, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 04:33 (seventeen years ago)

I obviously missed this thread (I was out of the country) but I would have said probably a lot of the same stuff I said here:

are there still punks?

I think USA people have a really different experience of current punk subculture because our scene's origins and history are as much 1980 hardcore explosion as 1977 Britain. Also, especially in the peace punk world there have been a lot of feedback loops over the years between scenes. I like hurting's analogy and prefer stuff of a similar stripe, or else weird political peacecore like Crass or Poison Girls.

The house I co-own booked all-ages alcohol-free punk shows for the last six years. We just stopped (not really for any particular reason other than general burnout) although we would still do some shows under very special circumstances. It has been very interesting for me as an older dude (41) to deal with shows involving lots of kids (and their parents! and grandparents! and younger siblings!) and to watch them grow up and find their own voices. The punk experience is in large part what you make of it and it was cool to watch these kids check it out. Lots of frustrations (drunkenness, apathy, boring bands, idiocy, but notably almost no violence) but also rewards (successful benefits for people in prison, great random bands, turning people on to information/history/music).

There are many reasons why it sucks. It still has a lot to offer as history, as music, as philosophy and aesthetics. And perhaps more importantly, it is a potential gateway to a vast world of subculture, some of which might still have something of value to offer in the face of world-blighting commodification.

― sleeve, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 04:50 (seventeen years ago)

it is a potential gateway to a vast world of subculture

― robotsinlove, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 04:58 (seventeen years ago)

yeah, dada, situationism, that whole weird Autonomous Mutant Festival thing, you know.

― sleeve, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 05:03 (seventeen years ago)

Another reason punk sucks is this horrendous new CD single by Mick Jones and Tony James' new band whose name I will not speak.

― sleeve, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 05:06 (seventeen years ago)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/1978-Now-Subway-Sect/dp/B000PHVXTA

― dan selzer, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 05:10 (seventeen years ago)

I was born in 1979

Well, there's your fuckin' problem right there, twerp.

― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 15 November 2007 00:13 (seventeen years ago)

Yeah real punks are old and reverent for old music

― filthy dylan, Thursday, 15 November 2007 00:59 (seventeen years ago)

I don't recall saying that.

― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 15 November 2007 01:06 (seventeen years ago)

Has any musical movement had as many books written about it, aggrandising it as some kind of revolutionary force, as punk?

Try Hip Hop.

― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 15 November 2007 01:07 (seventeen years ago)

the idea of not liking genres is sort of weird in itself.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 15 November 2007 01:08 (seventeen years ago)

"Punk."

Lol @ "hating punk."

― roxymuzak, Thursday, 15 November 2007 02:08 (seventeen years ago)

a young kid starting a crappy punk band and calling it Minor Threat without having heard of the more famous Minor Threat is way more punk than anything on this thread will ever be.

― latebloomer, Thursday, 15 November 2007 02:19 (seventeen years ago)

you know what really sucks though? getting ebola

― latebloomer, Thursday, 15 November 2007 02:23 (seventeen years ago)

you know what sucks brilliantly? bobby joe ebola and the children mcnuggets

― roxymuzak, Thursday, 15 November 2007 02:30 (seventeen years ago)

I like it.

― DustinR, Friday, 16 November 2007 22:38 (seventeen years ago)

punk was once an answer to years of crap a way of saying no when we'd always said yep

― scott seward, Friday, 16 November 2007 22:55 (seventeen years ago)

five months pass...

Old punks are starting to become part of the political and media establishment in just the same way as the Baby Boomers have been, and I find their lording it over of popular culture really fucking annoying

ok by this logic the Smiths fans should just be creeping up on us.

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=91275&rendTypeId=4

oh shit

― Thomas, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 11:25 (seventeen years ago)

Punk sucks because we WANT you to hate us! NYEEEEAAAAHHHHH!

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 11:47 (seventeen years ago)

(psyche. I don't care much for anything outside of the Ramones, but I was channeling someone whose voice needed to be heard)

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 11:48 (seventeen years ago)

This thread blew. He1ge50n was pretty alright.

― RabiesAngentleman, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 11:49 (seventeen years ago)

people thing modern country is some sort of vast wasteland, except all the dudes actually discussing it on the rolling country thread or my friend nate who just made me a mix CD of a bunch of good modern (not alt) country doodz that's actually really great

I'm interested in this^^^
What was on it? Apart from one or two select tracks by Brad Paisley and the Dixie Chicks I've had a rough time breaking away from all the old outlaw stuff and into what's currently going on. Where should I look? (that is if you come back around this thread's way, M@tt)

― RabiesAngentleman, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 11:54 (seventeen years ago)

I am really, really, really bored by most punk rock these days.
I was way into punk in high school, but now so much of it sounds the same, the politics are bland and unconvincing, and the whole thing seems like a lame pose. Also, it's too fast most of the time. And recorded poorly.

― ian, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 14:00 (seventeen years ago)

Most punk is dull and drunk and thuddy. I prefer taut and sinewy and volatile.

There's so much great punk stuff that fits both these bills, new and old. And both can be done badly or, er.... radly. Overall, the points about dismissing shit according to genre pretty much sum things up.

― gnarly sceptre, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 14:11 (seventeen years ago)

xpost Rabies/Matt..... I've also been curious about which new country stuff is great. I live in the UK, but it seems that many people who consider themselves country fans need to add a disclaimer about '....but none of this slick new stuff etc.'. It seems like one of the most (presumably unfairly) maligned musics out there. Which typically means there's load of great stuff going unnoticed!

― gnarly sceptre, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 14:25 (seventeen years ago)

wrt new country stuff...most of my experience w/it is from a good friend of mine that only listens to country and he really keeps track of stuff, he doesn't really like "alt country" at all, so it's mostly mid to low level new country dudes from the south....here's the tracklist of a mix he made for me that i really enjoyed, might give you some stuff to seek out (obv a few you've probably heard of but most probably not)

Longfall - Lost Trailers
Out of Here Tonight Great Divide
Jar of Clay - Pinmonkey
Another Six Pack Under - Rick Trevino
Georgia Hard - Robbie Fulks
Hair of the Dog - Shooter Jennings
10 Years Pass - Sunny Sweeney
18 Wheels - Fred Eaglesmith
Empty Seat Behind Me - Chris Wall & Reckless Kelly
30 Years Crazy - Cisco & the Reasons Why
Houston - Doug Moreland
Showman's Life - Buddy Miller
Devil Behind the Wheel - Chris Knight
Really Never Loved Her Anyway - Trent Summar
I Hung My Head - Blue Highway
Vegas - Two Tons of Steel
Calling All Cars - Mike McClure
Different Today - Hacienda Brothers
State Line - Cooder Graw
Whiskey Wings - Dean Miller
Low Down - Hank Williams III

― M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:00 (seventeen years ago)

30 Years Crazy - Cisco & the Reasons Why

this song is so fucking great i love it.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:00 (seventeen years ago)

And recorded poorly.

that's pretty harsh coming from a siltbreeze fan!

― Edward III, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:03 (seventeen years ago)

I stumbled across some thrashy punk record label from arizona on myspace recently and friended them. it's fun, like finding a stegosaurus in your rose bush.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:08 (seventeen years ago)

Haha, I was reading the titles/artits backwards and I thought there was a Jars Of Clay song on there. M@tt, thanks, this should be awesome. I'm not really into alt-country either, so possibly his tastes and mine are somewhat aligned.

-- ian, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 14:00 (2 hours ago) Link

I can't stomach most of the political soapboxing in punk so I avoid that stuff. There's a ton where that's completely non-existent so it's not an issue. I guess if you don't care for the fidelity that can be a problem, it's pretty much an intentional aesthetic a lot of the time... unless you're Turbo Negro (these days) or the Black Halos or something. And if you can distance yourself, which is pretty impossible sometimes, the lame pose is part of the appeal, part of the charm.

I went through a similar trial, I got into punk initially in high school (lol punk-o-rama), and like a lot of people I became disillusioned. You know, the big mistake of trying to take 19-year-old Ian MacKaye seriously, and, for me, getting out of my town of 4,000 and meeting "punks" did not help. It really took some years, and it took discovering some new bands (and bands that were new to me) to get back into it. Basically it was finding Killed By Death comps and termbo, and some of the weirder-flavored bands that sparked it again for me.

― RabiesAngentleman, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:43 (seventeen years ago)

that should read, "titles/artists"

― RabiesAngentleman, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:44 (seventeen years ago)

reason numba' one-oh-one: sid vicous's mum

― t**t, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 17:00 (seventeen years ago)

punk's DIY philosophy = classic
punk rock = meh (for the most part)
punks = super duper dud

― rockapads, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 17:29 (seventeen years ago)

three years pass...

Is rave now becoming part of the political and media establishment?

― Scary Move 4 (dog latin), Wednesday, 2 May 2012 12:00 (thirteen years ago)

~~it?~~ It is.

― how's life, Wednesday, 2 May 2012 17:24 (thirteen years ago)

thanks punk rock you did a good job and often still do

― l0u1s j0rdan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 2 May 2012 17:46 (thirteen years ago)

good posts in this thread, matt :)

― flopson, Wednesday, 2 May 2012 17:48 (thirteen years ago)

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