Russell Simmons calls for voluntary hip-hop moratorium on "nigger," "bitch," and "ho"

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http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/news/article2483858.ece

Stop using all this bad language, says hip-hop pioneer
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
Published: 25 April 2007

The godfather of modern hip-hop has decided enough is enough. Russell Simmons, the co-founder of Def Jam records and the inspiration behind bands as diverse as Run-DMC, the Beastie Boys and LL Cool J, is as sick of the lazy vulgarity of rap music as many of the rest of us.

Yesterday, he called for a voluntary ban on the three words he considers the most unacceptable, and among the most common, describing "bitch", "ho" and "nigger" as "extreme curse words" that were inconsistent with any sense of social responsibility by rap artists or their record companies.

"The words 'bitch' and 'ho' are utterly derogatory and disrespectful of the painful, hurtful, misogyny that, in particular, African American women have experienced in the United States," Simmons' organisation, the Hip-Hop Summit Action Network, said in a statement.

"The word 'nigger' is a racially derogatory term that disrespects the pain, suffering, history of racial oppression and multiple forms of racism against African Americans and other people of colour," it added.

Simmons' statement triggered an immediate debate about "political correctness". His suggestion was welcomed in many quarters but denounced in others as little more than a token gesture that would not end misogyny or racism, only alter the vocabulary with which it was expressed.

"This is like abstinence-only sex education," one reader wrote to the Detroit Free Press newspaper in an online discussion.

Simmons countered in an interview with the Associated Press, saying: "This is a first step. It's a clear message and a consistency that we want the industry to accept for more corporate social responsibility."

His statement summarises many of the frustrations he and others have felt about the direction rap music has taken. When it first burst onto the scene in the 1980s, it was a powerful, even revolutionary new medium of expression born of the frustrations and deprivations of the black urban experience. Simmons has consistently pushed that idea, organising "Def Poetry" sessions and mixing his music producing career with civil rights advocacy, including an energetic get-out-the-vote effort ahead of the 2004 presidential election.

The commercial success of rap has pushed much of it in an entirely different direction, fetishising black prison culture and a language of violence and hate. The gangsta rap movement of the early 1990s was primarily responsible for pushing the endlessly repetitive references to "niggers" and "hos", and they have not let up since.

The reaction has been building for some time. When Michael Richards, the white comedian best known for playing Kramer on the US sitcom Seinfeld, was recorded spewing a string of racial insults at an LA comedy club last autumn, it prompted several black commentators to wonder whether everyone should stop using the word "nigger" given its deeply offensive historical resonances.

Two weeks ago, the white shock jock Don Imus was fired from CBS Radio for referring to players on the Rutgers University women's basketball team as "nappy-headed hos" - an episode that once again raised the spectre of offensive language.

The standard practice of many record companies is to produce two versions of many rap songs - an unexpurgated version for CDs, often with a warning attached, and a "clean" version for the airwaves in which the lyrics have either been changed, erased or bleeped out. Simmons' suggestion is to ensure the three words are removed entirely.

He and the Hip-Hop Summit Action Network also recommended forming a coalition on broadcast standards, in which entertainment industry executives would draw up guidelines for lyrics and video imagery.

"We also recommend that the recording industry establish artist mentoring programmes and forums to stimulate effective dialogue ... to promote better understanding and positive change," the statement added.

― lfam, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:27 (nineteen years ago)

I have mixed feelings...

― NYCNative, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:57 (nineteen years ago)

can we still call guys bitches?

― cutty, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:01 (nineteen years ago)

What about dogs?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:16 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I have mixed feelings too. As Remy Ma pointed out yesterday, there's such a thing as context. And anyone who thinks, as the Independent's writer does, that there's no social relevance in today's music is simply full of it. I'm hardly an expert in hip-hop, but I know that: My favorite song right now is Ludacris' "Slap."

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:39 (nineteen years ago)

how about we just exempt r. kelly from moratorium

― cutty, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:08 (nineteen years ago)

cutty OTM!

― Tape Store, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:10 (nineteen years ago)

funny that the article doesn't mention that Simmons made a complete ass of himself on Oprah.

watch this guy try to wash his hands of the grime is hilarious.

― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:16 (nineteen years ago)

Who you callin' a bitch? (U.N.I.T.Y...)

― I eat cannibals, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 05:09 (nineteen years ago)

You know, I'm retracting my "mixed feelings." Simmons' request is kind of silly, potentially dangerous and, at best, a call for a Band Aid. I also note he doesn't call for a ban on the word "faggot."

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 05:15 (nineteen years ago)

was this written by a white or black person because i cannot tell at all from the article itself

― deeznuts, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 05:24 (nineteen years ago)

Does it matter?

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 05:24 (nineteen years ago)

(...whether it was written by a black or a white person)

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 05:25 (nineteen years ago)

If you dissin' the sisters then you ain't fightin' the power...

that shit is simple, my only disappointment comes at not finding the graphic I was lookin for.

It's a little late after SCHOOLLY DEE to put the toothpaste back in the tube Russie Man-Boyee. I think cop killing advocacy still resonates too.

How is Phat Farm doing though, alright?! Run's house appears smooth in syndication. Hope all is aight. (yo like you didn't sleep with the motherfuckin devil!) Oh did he say how Jay is cuttin wherever he is?

I bet that PERSON has some fly beats wherever the fuck he is...

FUCKING BULLSHIT IN OTHER WORDS! How is the Hamptons Rush?

― Saxby D. Elder, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:31 (nineteen years ago)

sarcasm rev

― deeznuts, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:33 (nineteen years ago)

'The gangsta rap movement of the early 1990s was primarily responsible for pushing the endlessly repetitive references to "niggers" and "hos", and they have not let up since.'

― deeznuts, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:36 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, be easy on Rush, Saxby. He's just getting old. It's natural.

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:37 (nineteen years ago)

btw rev wrong thread i guess but i think akons essential

― deeznuts, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:44 (nineteen years ago)

erm thats re 'soul survivor' if that wasnt clear

― deeznuts, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:46 (nineteen years ago)

Great:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/arts/music/25hiph.html?8dpc=&_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1177482869-fbBkct9YWI7u+iFNyfj/jQ

The strangest thing about the last few weeks was the fact that hardly any current hip-hop artists were discussed. (All these years later, we’re still talking about Snoop Dogg?) Maybe that’s because hip-hop isn’t in an especially filthy mood right now. It sounds more light-hearted and clean-cut than it has in years. Hip-hop radio is full of cheerful dance tracks like Huey’s “Pop, Lock & Drop It,” Crime Mob’s “Rock Yo Hips,” Mims’s “This Is Why I’m Hot” and Swizz Beatz’s “It’s Me, Snitches.” (The title and song were censored to exclude one of the three inflammatory words — proof that this snipping business can be tricky.)

On BET’s “106 & Park,” one of hip-hop’s definitive television shows, you can watch a fresh-faced audience applaud these songs, cheered on by relentlessly positive hosts. For all the panicky talk about hip-hop lyrics, the current situation suggests a scarier possibility, both for hip-hop’s fans and its detractors. What if hip-hop’s lyrics shifted from tough talk and crude jokes to playful club exhortations — and it didn’t much matter? What if the controversial lyrics quieted down, but the problems didn’t? What if hip-hop didn’t matter that much, after all?

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:47 (nineteen years ago)

Way off-topic, yeah, but on second thought and a listeniing, I think we're both right. He is essential to Soul Survivor, but still isn't the best thing about it. (That would be the randomly announced numbers.)

xpost: I wouldn't exactly cite "Pop Lock & Drop It" as an example of hiphop diverging from filth.

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:51 (nineteen years ago)

Now, to read Senneh.

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:52 (nineteen years ago)

And to make me a sammich.

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:54 (nineteen years ago)

Chorus)
Toot that thing up mamii make it roll
once you pop, pop lock it for me girl get low
if yo mama gave it to you, baby girl let it show
once you pop lock drop it for me maybe we can roll (oh)

Pop lock and drop it (8x)

(Verse 1): Baby Huey
Tonight its gon' be some changes
no acting sadity
so stop acting and get it clappin'
cause i'm knowing you feeling me
yeah you cute
but don't let that shit go to yo head
cause what this cutie won't do
pimpin' another one will
you prepared rockin' a skirt
and ya heels so tall
and we ain't with none of that trickin' but our bills so tall
i been peepin' you for a while and you throwin' it back
if you lookin' fo you a balla, we got dough in the back
look yo color carmello brown
and yo skin so smooth
i'm havin' fantasies about what you and me can do
and you an undercover freak
you probably thinking the same
i'm seein' light up on yo face because you peepin' my chain
and i ain't tryna put chu out there as if you a freak
so don't even take it that way just say you did it fo me
and yeah you probably roll with me cause its money in my pockets
so before then, i gotta see you pop lock and drop it

(Chorus 1x)

(Verse 2): Baby Huey
I ain't gotta be yo man
but i really wouldn't mind
we ain't gotta talk again i'm just tryna have a time
if you a balla pulla stack out and smack her on the ayyy
pop lockin' cock blockas get up out the way
let little mamii get low
giva space, let her sweat
[ Lyrics found on http://www.metrolyrics.com ]

the club turn into Hooters cause they shirts is so wet
from the window to the wall
little mama showin' her thong
the broad freakin' herself it's tellin' me that it's on
you ready then we can roll i'm tellin' you we can go
i'm thinkin' if i can handle it the way you make it roll
you groovin' and speedin' up
you right in between us
if you a stripteasa then baby don't tease us
at first i thought i was trippin'
but my vision gettin' clearer
you moving that thing around as if you practice in the mirror
she doin' a new dance
what the next man said
i'm like naw, she just pop locking on a headstand

(Chorus 1x)

(Hook)
Make it roll to the left (left)
roll to the right (right)
pop lock and drop it get low aight
Make it roll to the left (left)
roll to the right (right)
pop lock and drop it get low aight
it ain't tricking if you got it
we got it but i ain't givin'
just bounce it and roll wit it and maybe you roll with us
it ain't tricking if you got it
we got it and i ain't givin'
just bounce it and roll wit it and maybe you roll with us

Pop lock and drop it
now pop lock and drop it fo me
pop lock and drop it
say pop lock and drop it
whats yo name girl
never mind never mind
do you thing girl fire you ain't never lied
whats yo name girl
never mind never mind
do you thing girl fire you ain't never lied (Oh)

― NYCNative, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 06:56 (nineteen years ago)

HAHAHA:

Public Reaction

In response to the video, the Baltimore Police department created their own campaign, "Keep Talkin'", which used free DVDs and T-shirts in a method similar to that of the Stop Snitchin' campaign. [8] Its goal was to assure potential state witnesses of their safety from retaliation and stress the importance of cleaning up Baltimore's streets.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:00 (nineteen years ago)

I would like a poster of the graphic that accompanies the nytimes article

― A B C, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:12 (nineteen years ago)

That image is indeed amazing.

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:15 (nineteen years ago)

Simmons added, "Buy my book!"

― GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:16 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, seriously, lucky for him his book tour coincides with some opportunity to hop on the child-protectin' bandwagon.

― GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:17 (nineteen years ago)

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:20 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, they should probably do both.

― The Reverend, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:24 (nineteen years ago)

After seeing Anderson Cooper's thing on the Stop Snitchin' campaign, a report that I guess originally aired on 60 minutes and then he played on 360, I revoke Cooper's status as my favorite mainstream news guy. He is dead to me now. Every time his guests tried to bring the discussion back to the roots of the problem -- poverty, incarceration/police brutality, lack of education -- Cooper just ignored that side of the discussion and would come back with some statement basically blaming musicians.

― Maria :D, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 10:45 (nineteen years ago)

Everyone seems in a rush to blame the rappers, but not the white-owned corporations that make it sexy and profitable to sell words like "bitch" and "ho" to 14-year-old kids. Russell and Oprah need to hit up the CEOs instead of getting on Snoop's case.

i reckon this is a major part of the problem.
recent discussions with an ex-interscope artist recently revealed that the label have a ton of unreleased albums on the shelf as they were deemed too political/serious as opposed to the big selling booty/gangsta/club style...

― mark e, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 10:54 (nineteen years ago)

Everyone seems in a rush to blame the rappers, but not the white-owned corporations that make it sexy and profitable to sell words like "bitch" and "ho" to 14-year-old kids.

the rappers are only obeying orders?

how do white-owned corps make such words appealing/profitable exactly? it seems far too simplistic to implicate the supplier in this respect.

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 10:58 (nineteen years ago)

Even if Cam’ron is just doing what sells, the question remains: Why is this what sells? ....

You can scoff at Mr. Simmons’s modest proposal, but at the very least, he deserves credit for advancing a workable one, and for endorsing the kind of soft censorship that many of hip-hop’s detractors are too squeamish to mention. Consumers have learned to live with all sorts of semi-voluntary censorship, including the film rating system, the F.C.C.’s regulation of broadcast media and the self-regulation of basic cable networks. Hip-hop fans, in particular, have come to expect that many of their favorite songs will reach radio in expurgated form with curses, epithets, drug references and mentions of violence deleted. Those major corporations that Mr. Cooper mentioned aren’t very good at promoting so-called positivity or wholesome community-mindedness. But give them some words to snip and they’ll diligently (if grudgingly) snip away.

More K. Sanneh from that NY Times article

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 12:55 (nineteen years ago)

But it wouldn’t be surprising if the big record companies eventually decided that brash — and brilliant — rappers like Cam’ron were more trouble than they were worth. (Cam’ron’s last two albums haven’t sold well.)

sonned by a wite kid in a new york times beef

― and what, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:15 (nineteen years ago)

Control + f "Geir Hongro" = no results. Yet.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

I wouldn't mind a moratorium on "bitch" and "ho" when used by male rappers, but obviously banning words is hardly the way to change attitudes. Also, I think both true that many rappers are misogynic and that record companies cash on that misogyny: any analysis that doesn't take into account both sides is too simplistic.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:21 (nineteen years ago)

"I think it's both true"

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:21 (nineteen years ago)

so it's okay when chicks use em?

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:22 (nineteen years ago)

or is this some sorta "as a self-identified feminist, i don't want to say what women can and cannot say" bullshit

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:22 (nineteen years ago)

btw i look forward to the ever more creative ways pop cultural figures will twist hateful language into to avoid this ban

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:23 (nineteen years ago)

As a WMCM who hasn't actually bought a hip-hop album for over ten years now* I'm with Simmons all the way.

*except Speakerboxxx/The Love Below obviously

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:24 (nineteen years ago)

so it's okay when chicks use em?

I think with many female rappers "bitch" is used like "nigga" with black rappers: a derogatory term turned upside down to sign camaraderie. Listen to "My Bitches" by Eve for a great example.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

or is this some sorta "as a self-identified feminist, i don't want to say what women can and cannot say" bullshit

would this be like white men asking rappers to stop using n-word because it upsets THEM? roffle

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

"sign" = "signify". Damn I can't write.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:27 (nineteen years ago)

who is this eve of which you speak

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:27 (nineteen years ago)

Snoop goes home every night with a tear in his eye, wishing he didn't have to denigrate women to put food on his table. If only he could survive off his AOL ads. Get off his case, already!

― da croupier, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:36 (nineteen years ago)

this is how nazi germany started

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:38 (nineteen years ago)

Frank: You bet I am. Next issue: this crap with MTV. With the nudity and all. What is this crap? Sinbad O'Connor.

Sinead: Well, I think it's bloody awful. But it's typical of entertainment in a male-dominated society.

Frank: Boo-hoo. You had me and then you lost me. Billy Idol.

Billy: I think it's great-

Frank: Shaddap. Luther Campbell.

Luther: Well, that's my bread and butter, man-

Frank: Once more around, pal, Sounds like pops and buzzes from here.

Luther: I said, that's my bread and butter, man.

Frank: No, your'e wrong schoolboy. You don't need to work blue. You'll
never play the big rooms with that crap. Ask Redd Foxx. You don't need the blue stuff, kid, you got talent.

Luther: But I don't have talent.

Frank: You've got it, kid. You listen to me. You got a Ben Vereen quality, I can't put my finger on it. Take the high road baby.

Luther: I swear man. I don't have any talent. None. This is all I got.
Tell him, man.

Billy: Yeah, he sucks.

Sinead: He's not talented.

Frank: No. Bob Goulet-that's not talent. You got talent, you got a Dionne Warwick/Falana kind of thing goin'.

― da croupier, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:39 (nineteen years ago)

As with illegal drugs, this seems like the kind of thing that is best handled from the demand side.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

mark are you equating my god given right to call women slurs with heroin dealers?

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

― and what, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:44 (nineteen years ago)

i just wanna know why Tuomas reps for Gravediggaz so much? does anyone else rate '6 Feet Deep' at all?

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:45 (nineteen years ago)

From Lee Ioacoca to Tina Fey, white folks talking "street" is little more than a modern spin on blackface - even if is sometimes hilarious (see Ali G.).

But talk about a lack of conviction, now Luther Campbell himself says "...it goes too far and we need to do a better job of filtering to make sure the music is not offensive."

But hey, if the morality police has the support of Luther, that's good enough for me!

― christoff, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:46 (nineteen years ago)

Are you serious, Ethan? You have to dig sexism/misogyny to like rap?

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:46 (nineteen years ago)

idontevenknowanymore.jpg

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:46 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I like some albums with misogynic stuff on them; that's kind hard to avoid if you listen to a lot of rap. But that doesn't mean I like the misogyny. Usually I try to put in context, but if it gets too blatant, I tend to avoid such artists/records.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

all i know is we need more posts that begin "From Lee Ioacoca to Tina Fey"

― gff, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:51 (nineteen years ago)

they should only say 'bitch' when the man or woman really is being a bitch.

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:52 (nineteen years ago)

Are most of those columns on XXL's website about this subject supposed to be serious?

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

This might've been pointed out before, but the really bizarre thing about all this is that Simmons isn't even asking rappers not to use those 3 words -- he's saying those words should be censored in clean versions when played on the radio, which for the most part, they already are. That's why when you hear a rap song on the radio or on MTV, the chorus goes "I've got pros in different area codes" or "she ain't messin' with no broke, broke" or "it's me, snitches" instead of the words you hear when you buy the CD with the explicit lyrics sticker.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:54 (nineteen years ago)

He's a businessman trying to keep everyone happy (so that it keeps his bottom line financially happy).

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

Control + f "Geir Hongro" = no results. Yet.

You want me to post? Well, the thread is interesting enough, but I feel that comments about the lack of melodies in hip-hop would be a bit off-topic in a thread exclusively dealing with lyrics. :)

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

Is he, though? He sold off his stake in Def Jam almost a decade ago, and I'm guessing he makes way more money these days off of his clothing line than the Russell Simmons Music Group (which has never had any hits). (xpost)

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

And the radio edits are often better. The "broke, broke" sounds more unexpected and interesting than "broke nigger." Kinda like the pause in NIN's radio edit of Closer made the actual song sound more rote.

― I eat cannibals, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

I'm just glad Eazy's not alive to see this day.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:14 (nineteen years ago)

Goeffry Canada made an excellent point on 360 last night. I don't have an exact quote, but basically he said that suburban black men are being incarcerated at a much higher rate because they feel they need to prove their "blackness" by acting out/adopting the thug mentality. Perhaps it's time to question whether "gangsta rap" is reporting harsh realities or creating them.

― The Brainwasher, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

I'd love to learn the facts/stats behind that statement.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:45 (nineteen years ago)

I heart Geoffrey Canada but I'm not sure about his analysis there

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:45 (nineteen years ago)

"suburban black people" no longer necessarily means middle/upper class - lots of poor people are moving to the suburbs

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:45 (nineteen years ago)

suburban black men are being incarcerated at a much higher rate because they feel they need to prove their "blackness" by acting out/adopting the thug mentality

wtf

― and what, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:48 (nineteen years ago)

You can scoff at Mr. Simmons’s modest proposal, but at the very least, he deserves credit for advancing a workable one, and for endorsing the kind of soft censorship that many of hip-hop’s detractors are too squeamish to mention

Getting dragged to the negotiating table is barely worthy of credit, let alone a sign of endorsement.

What if the controversial lyrics quieted down, but the problems didn’t? What if hip-hop didn’t matter that much, after all?

GREAT LOGIC KALEFAH.

― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:51 (nineteen years ago)

wtf

Well, the fact that this really small/ limited idea of black masculinity is pretty much the ONLY one in pop culture sort of leads to results like that, no?

― The Brainwasher, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

bbc poll:

Should rappers clean up their language?
Yes
74.76%
No
25.24%
28783 Votes Cast
Results are indicative and may not reflect public opinion

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

that nyt pic is now my wallpaper. thanks for making it so big, nyt webdoodz!

― CharlieNo4, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 15:15 (nineteen years ago)

GREAT LOGIC KALEFAH.

how is it not?

― deej, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 15:38 (nineteen years ago)

How is a question "logic"?

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 15:42 (nineteen years ago)

It's not really the right question tho. What if they cracked right down on gun ownership but some kids still got shot?

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

x-post

Brainwasher, does Geoff Canada have any statistics or research to back up the suburban black men incarcerated theory? It sounds questionable to me.

How is a question "logic"?

C'mon you know what he means--how is the phrasing in K's question not logical? K probably did not have much space to spell out the underlying issues, but the substance is conveyed in part by the rest of the text.

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8674/ntory24bu7.jpg

― fandango, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:03 (nineteen years ago)

No, he didn't bring up any stats or anything... it was just something he said in passing during the interview. I was half-sleeping while it was on so I may be remembering it incorrectly..

― The Brainwasher, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:07 (nineteen years ago)

art of pretend forgetfulness

― lfam, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:13 (nineteen years ago)

Parallel discussion of this over on ILE. Re: this --

how do white-owned corps make such words appealing/profitable exactly? it seems far too simplistic to implicate the supplier in this respect.

-- well, Tom was getting on my case for putting things too sweepingly or generally on the other board, so I'll just say here that you can also look past "the supplier" to "the market"; what we might shorthand as Black + Behaving Badly is vigorously consumed and enjoyed just as much as folks are appalled by it.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

i can only assume russell is making noise about this so next time some imus-type bullshit happens people can't turn around and say 'but why does no one care about the rappers????' but who knows why he's calling for censorship really, he and common and oprah and bono can release a we are the profanity-free world for all i care and package it with Gap hoodies

― deej, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

seriously the sanneh article is good because it looks at the situation and is like 'what the fuck are you people talking about? What does imus have to do with current rap music?' but in polite new york times speak.

― deej, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

― and what, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

While I do agree that it was rather ridiculous how the blame was shifted from Imus to "horrible, crude rappers," it does raise the question of why it's okay for Snoop (or any rapper, obv.) to call (black) women hos, but it isn't okay for Imus to do it. Yeah yeah, context and all of that stuff, but Snoop's explanation that "he's talking about actual hos in the ghetto" doesn't really cut it. The "rap is fantasy" argument doesn't cut it either.

― The Brainwasher, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

For the record, I do agree with Imus'firing, and I think Russel's plea to band words is ridiculous and highly hypocritical of him.

― The Brainwasher, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

Fair point, but I think you're writing off Snoop's explanation a bit quickly! I mean, there's a difference between saying "I met this guy, he was a total dick" and saying "the Benson family of 213 Elm Street, who I saw on television playing basketball, are dicks" -- it's not surprising that the latter of those would call for a little more accountability.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

what about the 'snoop isnt don imus' argument? for the record i dont think imus should have been fired

― and what, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

Also you can't call the guy "hypocritical" so long as he's willing to live up to the standards he's preaching on the material he's involved with!

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:38 (nineteen years ago)

What are you getting at with "Snoop isn't Don Imus"?

I mean, there's a difference between saying "I met this guy, he was a total dick" and saying "the Benson family of 213 Elm Street, who I saw on television playing basketball, are dicks" -- it's not surprising that the latter of those would call for a little more accountability.

I totally agree, but there isn'that much of a difference. I can see why one is more acceptable than the other, but I don't see why one is TOTALLY acceptable and met without contest whereas the other is totally unacceptable.

Also you can't call the guy "hypocritical" so long as he's willing to live up to the standards he's preaching on the material he's involved with!

It just comes off as conceding to Oprah and the others calling for him to do something, and it sort of lies in conflict with his whole spiel about "poets" and "art" and all that stuff (see: his appearances on Oprah & 360). Not to mention the fact that he's made tons of money off of peddling music which usages the language he's proposing to ban (now that he has no actual say in the industry).

― The Brainwasher, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

(a) Dude I'd say there's a huge difference between those two things. I think you're focusing on the idea of the words used as inherently offensive (which is one part of it), and ignoring the level on which they're specifically insults. And there is a huge difference in responsibility between insulting people in the abstract ("man I hate people who are assholes") and insulting specific people who don't deserve it and are totally inappropriate as targets ("private citizen so-and-so who is just minding his own business -- you're an asshole").

(b) Conceding to someone's request that you solve a problem isn't "hypocritical." You can question his committment or opportunism or desire to look good, but when he follows through, he's not a hypocrite, just a guy who got convinced to take action.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

Pardon me, "acceding."

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

Benzino stated that Eminem can talk about emotions, while Black rappers are forced to talk about materialistic things.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 19:19 (nineteen years ago)

he's not a hypocrite, just a guy who got convinced to take action.

"convinced"

― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 19:43 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, you can be convinced by pressure as well as logic!

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 19:56 (nineteen years ago)

if people who think snoop's misogyny = he shouldn't be signed to a major are upset, they can do something about it - bring pressure on record companies. The problem is that those companies don't rely on advertising revenue like television - on the other hand, snoop does not have a daily television program, he's got CDs which you can choose not to buy. Its an entirely different situation and simmons' suggestion isn't even close to a parallel

― deej, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:00 (nineteen years ago)

it would be one thing if snoop was saying this shit on the radio, but he's not

― deej, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:01 (nineteen years ago)

just like if imus wants to make a racist record he can!

― deej, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:02 (nineteen years ago)

This Things I Believe

― da croupier, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:03 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

Seriously, I know this is kind of semantics, but ... eh. You can question his motivations or commitment all you want, but he's not exactly being a hypocrite until he fails to follow through, is he? And standing up for something good as a response to pressure and public outcry may limit your ability to strike a sanctimonious tone about it, but it's just pointlessly sneery to scare-quote the "convinced": whether it's through argument or pressure, the guy's come around to saying something about this, and he's probably best judged by whether he follows through on what he's preaching or not.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not really sure why I am supposed to have high expectations for this guy on this subject given his past track record. Did you see Simmons' performance on Oprah?

― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

and please, let's not get all flustered by scare quotes Nabisco.

― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

Grr I'm not saying you have to have high expectations, just that it seems really cheap and lame to sneer and call him a huge hypocrite or opportunist about this before even seeing what the result is. (And it's not like anyone here is congratulating Oprah et al for finally pinning down that hypocrite Simmons on cleaning things up!) I know it's kinda sneer-bait for someone to push for better "corporate citizenship" on this issue, but sneering at all parties involved and eye-rolling about actual outcomes isn't exactly any cooler.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

I can't speak for those who called him a hypocrite or an opportunist, nor have I been sneering at all parties or the actual outcomes. But it'd be a lot easier to congratulate Simmons on his newfound moral cause if he hadn't made an ass of himself defending hip hop in the way he did on Oprah. From that performance, I'm not really sure how much his heart is in it.

― Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:43 (nineteen years ago)

i just wanna know why Tuomas reps for Gravediggaz so much? does anyone else rate '6 Feet Deep' at all?

-- blueski, Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:15 AM (6 hours ago)

Is this serious?

― filthy dylan, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

nah

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 21:11 (nineteen years ago)

The founder of legendary hip-hop label Def Jam has called for three sexist and racist words to be banned from songs.

Russell Simmons said there was "growing public outrage" about the use of the terms, which he said should be viewed as the same as "extreme curse words".

He asked broadcasters and record companies to voluntarily remove, bleep or delete the words from music.

And he suggested setting up an industry watchdog to recommend guidelines for lyrical and visual standards.

This is worse than just putting a band-aid on the issue. Hidden racism needs to be confronted--not just swept under the carpet. We need an open and honest dialouge started about racism, not witch hunts, blame games and finger pointing. The fact is racism, sexism, homophobia exists. Education and experience is the only way to overcome these things--which means Censorship is NOT the solution!!!

― Tinky-Winky, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

broadcasters and record companies have already been censoring since day one anyway (as was pointed out upthread i think).

― blueski, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

Grrrr do people even know what words mean anymore? That reporting there is as bad as T-W about it: asking for "voluntary removal" is not the same thing as a ban and especially not the same thing as censorship. And black people saying "nigga" is not a matter of "hidden racism" -- it's being confronted here mostly on the level of just being vulgar and self-defeating culture.

And seriously, when it comes to the misogyny, it's kinda weird to focus on the idea that word-banning just sweeps it under the rug: the fact that a fairly major (if already mainstreamed) figure in hip-hop is ready to admit that it's an issue that needs to be dealt with is at least a start to confrontation right there! I mean, bitch all you want about the lip-service aspect of this, but there wasn't even that much lip-service before, so whether it's due to genuine feeling or pressure-based "corporate responsibility" issues, I'm not going to mind a growing norm that this stuff is (if nothing else) self-defeating and tacky and could stand to go.

― nabisco, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

nabisco has been growling a lot lately

― deej, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:42 (nineteen years ago)

seven months pass...

Benzino stated that Eminem can talk about emotions, while Black rappers are forced to talk about materialistic things.

― and what, Tuesday, 25 December 2007 21:52 (eighteen years ago)

santa gave ethan a hundred thread revives for Xmas

― J0hn D., Tuesday, 25 December 2007 23:11 (eighteen years ago)

what was the thread where you zinged someone (shakey?) w/ "i'll add you to the list of ilxors willing to drop the n-bomb to make a point"

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 25 December 2007 23:21 (eighteen years ago)

i found one where sterling c. lover chewed ethan out for using the n-word

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 25 December 2007 23:21 (eighteen years ago)

one of my professors regularly calls things "retarded" in class. he is a professor of education, mind you.

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 25 December 2007 23:23 (eighteen years ago)

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