Uncritical acceptance of an artist's entire body of work

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This kind of approach to music (or film, or any creative endeavour), wherein the audience or fan refuses or is (claims to be?) unable to make value judgements regarding the relative quality of an artist's work over their whole career, does my head in almost more than any other attitude.

It strikes me as such a bizarre approach, to refuse or be unable to seperate wheat from chaff, and yet I know an awful lot of (generally casual, compared to ILMers for example) music fans who follow this pattern.

Perhaps it comes from a state of extreme deference to the creative process / artistic 'character'? If so, I see that attitude as one which misunderstands the creative process / artistic 'character'.

Emails just arrived and totally distracted me from where this question was going, so I shall end it here...

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno how common it really is. The poll threads are interesting in this regard (no honest!) - some people pay a bit of lip service to "O NOES THIS CHOICE IS TOO HARD" but hardly anyone is actually saying "All good - won't choose."

Maybe the generally casual vs hardcore plays a part, with the casual not having the urge to sort through (or to hear the shite stuff).

Once you've decided that yr interest is in the creator and their thought processes/artistic decisions then it's possible to think "Well it's all interesting".

Which bands/acts get this the most? The Fall? Jandek??

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

the 'argh this is too hard i can't pick' thing does bother me a bit or at least the whole in-public play up of it. yes it's hard, that's the point (or should be)!

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

no, i think even jandek fans make distinctions between the albums.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

(blue corpse 4eva.)

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

Steve actually the dismissive "Not even close" pffft-ism is more annoying!

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

Bit of snobbery going on here with the "casual" aside, as though only ILx has a privileged understanding which the lumpen common mass lack.

Part and parcel of the mechanics of pop, surely, is the love and uncritical loyalty of a musician or group's following come hell or high water. You love them, adore them, worship them; that's the whole point. If you don't get that then you don't really get pop.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

I get in this argument all the time with friends who should know better. They read my published reviews or blog posts and remark, not always jokingly, "Oh, yeah, Alfred hates everything." The only possible response is, "Well, you're just a twat."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

Steve actually the dismissive "Not even close" pffft-ism is more annoying!

"obviously the correct answer is X"

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

i think that some people convince themselves to like every little thing in an artist's catalogue just so they can achieve a level of completism in engaging with all that the artist has produced. these types will probably try and sap as much enjoyment as they can out of something distinctly lacking in merit.

i dunno. just a thought

― Charlie Howard, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

ILM is the pffftimism community.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

there's also a difference between saying "they've never made a bad album" and "each and every one of their albums is a perfect masterpiece."

― Edward III, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

the love and uncritical loyalty of a musician or group's following come hell or high water

this is how i felt when i was an adolescent - it doesn't equate to accepting everything an artist does as 'good' by any means though. i guess a more thought-out position is that, even if you don't necessarily enjoy the current work of yr chosen artist, they still retain something which keeps you interested in them and their artistic development.

i don't really feel like this any more, at least i have my artists that i feel loyalty to, but no one in that unquestioning teenage way. this is healthy, obviously.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

This has kept Oasis in business for over ten years now.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

(I meant this phenomenon, not The Lex)

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

Is there a workable correlation between the screaming McFly fan and the Keiji Haino analist (for want of a better word I made one up) who has to have every last limited edition 3" memory stick and has to clean up the mouse droppings regularly (cf. Keenan in the Wire end of year round-up a few years back)?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

I've had "everything they've done is good OMG" phases but not "everything they've done is equally good".

Alfred: I've noticed in terms of feedback that "They are good at this, they are bad at that" might as well be "They suck" as far as fans are concerned.

Nick come back and explain what you're actually talking about pls!

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

i don't really feel like this any more, at least i have my artists that i feel loyalty to, but no one in that unquestioning teenage way. this is healthy, obviously.

altho i don't recall you citing any Madonna song as bad (but may be forgetting something here).

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

No don't come back just yet, I want to half-arsedly mock your Embrace fandom first.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

Making distinctions isn't the same as identifying Wheat and Chaff tho, is it? I don't think I'd be happy neatly filing away albums in some sort of number-rated order.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

Which bands/acts get this the most? The Fall? Jandek??

ZAPPA!!!!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

"everything they've done is equally good"

surely nobody says this about anyone?

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

I think once you listen to and like an artist enough, there's something to be interested in even when the work isn't great.

Like, even with mediocre Prince, it's still Prince who is singing, who thought through the tune, etc., and I respect him enough to at least be interested.

― Jordan, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

auteur theory to thread

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

Part and parcel of the mechanics of pop, surely, is the love and uncritical loyalty of a musician or group's following come hell or high water. You love them, adore them, worship them; that's the whole point. If you don't get that then you don't really get pop.

OTM. Sometimes it's like supporting a football team - you just hang in there through the doldrums in the hope that the spark will reignite. I'll defend certain bands to near-fisticuffs even though i know they made some less-good albums, and that's what it's all about, really. Dropping bands you've loved for years off your list just cos they made a clunker just doesn't make sense.

― CharlieNo4, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

NEIL YOUNG

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think I'd be happy neatly filing away albums in some sort of number-rated order.

dude what the hell are you doing on ILM?

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

... no (xpost)

― Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

no, i think even jandek fans make distinctions between the albums.

-- strongohulkington, Tuesday, May 1, 2007 9:59 AM (11 minutes ago)

i have friends that are super into jandek and the def. have favorite periods and albums, etc...i think even the most hardcore ones find his acapella period really hard to take.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

neil young was not my "choice" in this matter. (though i like neil young a lot.) but dude does attract the committed nutjobs.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:13 (eighteen years ago)

dude what the hell are you doing on ILM?

...the question we all aks ourselves at least once a week.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:13 (eighteen years ago)

"Even a bad [x] is still better than [vague handwave at rest of human culture]"

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:14 (eighteen years ago)

i hate it whan that argument is applied to The Simpsons

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:14 (eighteen years ago)

I'm telling you, Zappa pwns this thread

― Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

I feel that th uncritical-acceptance approach is the only way forward for all artists ever and should be extended into other fields as well - it makes record shopping incredibly easy, what to speak of getting the groceries

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

if anyone i'd pick maybe a middle of the road type dude...like i bet there are a ton of people that love absolutely everything john cougar mellancamp has ever done.

the fall wouldn't be a bad choice either.

neil's close but i don't know anyone that really like Everybody's Rockin' or This Note's For You...but yeah lots of suspect shit like Landing on Water will get defended (by me)

― M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

Akshully what bugs me about the initial question is the militancy of Nick's wording. You really can't understand how people might have uncritical crushes? Or an approach to music that doesn't want to keep score? You almost make it sound like people who don't want to judge music in the same terms as you are being deliberately perverse or feeble-minded.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

"I don't see how you can like [genre] and not like [X]."

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

altho i don't recall you citing any Madonna song as bad (but may be forgetting something here).

madonna's done plenty of shit songs! most of her singles are great though. 'hollywood' is a notable exception.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno, dudes, the first thing this made me think of was Googlers on the Dave Matthews Band: Why are they so bad and hated thread.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

jaymc is right: jam bands are the terminus point of this phenomenon

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

phish live double CD series to thread

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

Haha I am switching between finger-wagging on this thread and gushing over Girls Aloud album tracks on the one next to it. A hypocrite is I.

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

Which bands/acts get this the most? The Fall? Jandek??

ZAPPA!!!!

-- Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:10 (2 minutes ago)
NEIL YOUNG

-- strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:11 (1 minute ago)

The exact 2 names that came immediately to mind when I saw the thread title. They're both so fucking wildly inconsistent as well! The hard-core Zappa-ists I've known have been the worst, b/c as well as the uncritical acceptance thing, there's this tendency to look down on other artists as being intellectually inferior, and to assume yer hating on the guy ("hating" = "I like some of his rekkids, but not others") b/c you just don't "get it" yet.

― Pashmina, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

STEELY DAN.

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:20 (eighteen years ago)

Lou Reed owns this concept, many many Lou Reed fans will tell you that they have a special place in their hearts for Lou at his very worst, when they/we know it's awful e.g. Growing Up In Public - with artists whose work encourages you to feel like you know them personally, even the warts become charming if you're invested

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:20 (eighteen years ago)

bjork fits actually! her fans might say things like they admire medúlla rather than love or even listen to it, but it's still a worthwhile thing for her to have done

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:22 (eighteen years ago)

tom and lex both otm

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:22 (eighteen years ago)

though steely dan really did never release a bad album

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:22 (eighteen years ago)

I kind of get the feeling that a lot of those Azerrad bands fit in here too. Maybe that's just looking at the poll threads for them.

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

phish live double CD series to thread

-- strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 Ma

"phish double live series" vs "shut up & play yer guitar vol n"

Also, Grateful Dead?

I dunno if Steely Dan fit too well, because their back catalogue is pretty small?

― Pashmina, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

Lou Reed owns this concept, many many Lou Reed fans will tell you that they have a special place in their hearts for Lou at his very worst,

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, "The Raven"?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

... and "Growing Up In Public" is not awful!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

The first example that jumps into my head of the kind of thing I started the thread meaning, is someone I know vaguelly who refuses to draw a preference between the three Verve albums - given the radically different sounds, approaches, songwriting styles etcetera of these three records, it strikes me as utterly bizarre that this person won't express a preference, and won't identify any given song as bad or even just "not to my tastes".

I have a very atypical approach to supporting a football team so that analogy doens't wash with me!

I agree to some extent with Marcello's 'unquestioning love is part of being a pop fan' but I don't think I'm talking just about pop. I dunno. can anyone name a Miles Davis fan who really, genuinely refuses to choose between the nasty 80s slap-bass dross and In A Silent Way or the 50s bebop?

A FUCKING LOT OF X-POSTS HERE.

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

Where you immediately fall down is categorising Miles' '80s work as nasty slap-bass dross, which it isn't.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

What's the impulse behind it do you think? A feeling that admitting preferences would be to give ground to "the enemy" (whoever they may be)

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

It also demonstrates a lack of understanding of the lifelong relationship Miles had with the pop song, from "My Funny Valentine" to "Perfect Way"; the surroundings change but the central art doesn't (self xpost).

My take on the Verve is that when they were THE Verve they were phenomenal, as opposed to when they were Verve and turned into the Hollies circa 1974. But I can understand folks sticking by Our Dickie regardless, even onto the arid deserts of his solo work.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

someone I know vaguelly who refuses to draw a preference between the three Verve albums

ok this is mental behaviour - most of the real obsessed fans of any artist i know spent their lives ranking and re-ranking and analysing the differences between every item in their favourite artist's discography

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:31 (eighteen years ago)

I think you have that reversed there, Marcello.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

i mean, it's how i've developed my stock answers to "what's your favourite madonna/kate bush/tori amos/bjork album/single"

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not sure whether there's anyone whose work I've ever followed absolutely uncritically. Kate Bush had The Red Shoes and Lionheart, which weren't so good, Scott Walker had his early '70s cabaret hell, Robert Wyatt...well End Of An Ear or Dondestan are OK but they're not Rock Bottom or Schleep, nowhere near either. Maybe Ornette comes closest but there's a patch in the early-mid eighties which is a bit meh.

Morrissey, of course, pwns this thread.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno. can anyone name a Miles Davis fan who really, genuinely refuses to choose between the nasty 80s slap-bass dross and In A Silent Way or the 50s bebop?

Right here. And though I "genuinely refuse to choose," I like some of the 80s albums (We Want Miles and Tutu in particular, but Decoy, too) than the Gil Evans albums, which I admire in theory but which in practice bore me.

― unperson, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

That could be, Tom. Not wanting to get into Carmody territory but wouldn't there (in the past) be an identifiable portion of 'the working class' who would unthinkingly vote Tory historically out of a sense of deferentially knowing one's place? Is it a similar instinct to that.

See, Marcello suffers from this...

FOR FUCK'S SAKE STOP IT WITH THE X-POSTS

― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

Tom D. Growing Up in Public is at least as bad as the Raven, and I have love for them both, as do several fellow Reedophiles I know

the pow-pow-pow-pow power of positive drinking

God just the cover of GUIP makes me giggle

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

Marcello spot on re: The Verve. Early records and performances a far far cry from the smugness of the last 10 years or so.

― whatever, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

Morrissey, of course, pwns this thread.

-- Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, May 1, 2007 10:33 AM (2 minutes ago)

i dunno, man like Maladjusted, Kill Uncle, and Tormentors seems to be big disappointments to most people i know that love moz, myself included.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

Tormentors was a number one album in Britain so there's definitely a hardcore of fans there who will not yield no matter what.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:37 (eighteen years ago)

See, Marcello suffers from this...

uh?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

Yes Nick - but it's more like current Labour activists who simply will not admit that Blair has done some wrong things, because if you do admit that you're giving succour to the Tories or Lib Dems or SNP or whatever.

My experience of Moz fandom was kind of like that!

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

oh morrissey is definitely one of these types

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

oh and THE CURE

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

basically any thread about band's new album where ned raggett and dan perry will both be posting overheated anticipatory rhetoric

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

embracing (not just accepting, but embracing) an artist's entire body of work signifies a genuine understanding of what that artist is about...pathetic as they may be, those hard-core Oasis fans are happier than pigs in shite when Noel and Liam drop a new record...and don't you envy them at least a tiny bit?...whatever it is they're after, they've found it...honestly, isn't love itself irrational?...would you not want to be in love?...

now, me: there's no way you're telling me that Laura Nyro ever recorded anything less than completely stellar...

― henry s, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

ha every moz album has a least a few gems on them! only tormentors and quarry are really problematic cos of the horendous mastering. it's strange but i really enjoy auto-pilot morrissey. his most slight songs are sometimes the best cos they don't trip over themselves reaching for importance.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

x-post to Jess: ...rhetoric which is accurate.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

as in "how sweeeeet to be an idiot" ?

(c) Neil Innes

― Mark G, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:40 (eighteen years ago)

This thread's subtext: WE ARE CRITICS, THE REST ARE SWINE.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:40 (eighteen years ago)

basically any thread about band's new album where ned raggett and dan perry will both be posting overheated anticipatory rhetoric

Tool?

― Jordan, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

number of emails received for my "this isn't bad but it's not as good as lateralus" tool review for p-fork: 186, at last count

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)

I think most people can identify if not completely agree with the sentiment especially looking book on their adolescent years (as stated enough already). One thing that hasn't been mentioned is once you latch on to an artist, it's like going to school. You get into every single thing a particular artist has done because it is *building your knowledge & understanding* of not just that artist but music, and listening to music. If you learn one two or three albums by someone, it's easier and interesting to listen to number four and understand technical & formal differences between them. It helps you become a better listener, especially at an early age, to really grapple with an entire catalogue, I think

― Billy Pilgrim, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)

tori amos was like this until her last album finally tipped even the most rabid fans away from her

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)

I'm guilty to some degree here with regards to the Pet Shop Boys. I give them a free pass for almost everything and will happily continue to do so because...they're the goddamn pet shop boys.

― sw00ds, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)

tori amos fans otm until 2001, i think

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

tori amos fans are terrifying. scariest concert i've ever been to.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

Hmmm.

Actually the Bonzos probably come closest AFAIC; not one duff album as a band (I even liked the last one, if we're talking contractual obligations), great solo albums from Stanshall, Innes and even Roger Ruskin Spear...and of course the Rutles...a faultless catalogue!

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

I honestly didn't do that as an adolescent! Maybe I was a born critic :( I think probably it didn't help that the first act I ever really got into was pop chameleon David Bowie and his current album at the time I got into him was Never Let Me Down. I did try, though.

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

PSBs I happily gave a free pass towards until Nightlife and then I just had to bow my head and admit it.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

Honestly I can't think of a single one of my favorites whom I've exempted from the critical treatment. At the very least it obviated nitpicking from my friends, e.g. "Yes, I know Bowie can't sing."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:48 (eighteen years ago)

Well my point isn't quite responsive to the original question. I don't approve of uncritical acceptance of anything.

xpsts making it hard to follow all this...

― Billy Pilgrim, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

not sure if this is relevant, but is their an analogue in literature? shakespeare?

i guess there's a difference, as noted above, between fandom/uncritical adoration and something like "all of X's output is interesting and worth close attention"

id also say that the latter approach is actually really good in most cases because engaging with the entire range of an artist's work can really enrich the experience of their best stuff. understanding titus andronicus can improve your experience of hamlet, or something like that.

and surely there's something to be said for really trying to like something? or would that just be silly?

― ryan, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

xposts

You get into every single thing a particular artist has done because it is *building your knowledge & understanding* of not just that artist but music, and listening to music.

otm

Sometimes it's like supporting a football team

that too. some people wear bulls jerseys, some people wear sweatshirts with the mascots of their alma maters, some people wear terrastock t-shirts. if i could post a picture here of drunk alpha kids at a dave matthews concert, with university of south carolina gamecocks hats on, i would. the phenomenon isn't much different at morrissey concerts, where the disaffected hero gets showered with gladiolas whenever he strikes a matador pose

― kamerad, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

Also when you're young group & artists become like footballs you kick back and forth. Beatles! No, Stones! Biggie! No, Tupac! etc. People get tempted into abandoning a critical posture when you get involved in that. By now, I'm lucky if even my closest friends have even heard what I'm listening to, and vice versa.

― Billy Pilgrim, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

If we're talking literary crossovers, then 2Pac is the Catherine Cookson of pop.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

i.e. even after they're gone new records/books come out and they still get bought!

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:00 (eighteen years ago)

I guess all I'm saying in regards to the PSB and maybe a few others i can think of is that I love such an overwhelming amount of what they've done that I can't be bothered to nitpick too much at this point--if I were asked to review a shittier record by them, I'd probably just focus on the two or three songs that would (almost inevitably) interest me. Given that, it'd probably be a lame review, so I'd rather just leave it alone at this point. (The story would also be a lot different if the PSB still mattered as much as they once did; that they don't makes such "uncritical acceptance" a whole lot easier.) (And "uncritical acceptance" to me doesn't mean "love everything unconditionally" it means something more like "endure some of the failures.")

― sw00ds, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:00 (eighteen years ago)

I don't see Neil Young and Zappa as particularly good examples, as those albums tend to have been well-received also outside the most loyal legion of fans.

However, it is fairly clear to me that Rush and Grateful Dead fit into this category very well. Others may also add Marillion and Squeeze, but even though I am not a huge fan of either, I still feel Marillion are still capable of releasing great albums, while Squeeze were too for the entire 90s.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost

Nah, that's Virginia Andrews.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

Tormentors was a number one album in Britain so there's definitely a hardcore of fans there who will not yield no matter what.

The last two Morrissey albums have both been excellent. Much better than anything he ever did with The Smiths.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

i think half of uncritical accepatance is sort of reflection. you can connect the dot emotionally from how this, possibly inferior, piece is affecting you to the one that snared you in the first place. it's perhaps that thing which moz articulates in "rubber ring" that fidelity to music that once meant so much to you that hearing even echoes of past glories can take you back to those lost moments.

― acrobat, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

so what's more important, the art or the artist? if an artist in any medium makes one amazing thing followed by 10 years of crappy things, are they a good artist? Does it matter? Shouldn't we take each peice of work individually?

― King Kitty, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

9 and 3/4 times out of ten, the art, absolutely.

― sw00ds, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

you can connect the dot emotionally from how this, possibly inferior, piece is affecting you to the one that snared you in the first place.

v otm. sometimes it works the other way round - when the artist you used to love finally releases something indefensible, all that is shit about it infects everything you used to love

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

Sometimes your grow out of your anal phase, kiddies

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

be careful not to put two of those words in the same sentence

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:14 (eighteen years ago)

woo woo juggalo

― PappaWheelie V, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

I don't see Neil Young and Zappa as particularly good examples, as those albums tend to have been well-received also outside the most loyal legion of fans.

What? Is this the same Frank Zappa, Geir? It seems to me, that most of his albums from ca. 1970 onwards have not been very well-received outside his loyal legions of fans.

― Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

xp: sp: you grow out, of course

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

I seem to recall "The Yellow Shark" receiveing good reviews, for instance. "Joe's Garage" surely did.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

He has put out about a million albums, Geir

― Tom D., Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

Shouldn't we take each piece of work individually?

but surely we don't do this, or i dont know anyone that really does it, though they may claim to. you might say it's impossible.

― ryan, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

good example of this: everything written about Timbaland in the past year, even the fairly negative reviews of Shock Value

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

to clarify: i don't mean to take the work "out of context". Who made it and when and with what is obv. very important. But I try to do my best not to be loyal to something as fickle as an artist. The work, once it's done, never changes really, just it's context and our perspective of it (disco music now vs disco music then)-and that includes the person who made it!

― King Kitty, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:29 (eighteen years ago)

What liking an artist tends to create isn't "uncritical acceptance" surely, just "goodwill" - I like the Pet Shop Boys, therefore I will give them another chance or two when they make records I don't like. If they make too many bad records I will stop bothering when they make new ones.

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

what's the diff. between doing this with artists and doing this with entire genres/approaches/philosophies? because He Who Shall Not Be Named some people on ILM work the latter all day every day long.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

ha ha ignore the He Who Shall Not Be Named bit - it doesn't apply to just one person (but there are one or two usual suspects).

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

entire genres/approaches/philosophies

what's nice about the "goodwill" approach above is that it applies nicely to these things too!

― ryan, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

good example of this: everything written about Timbaland in the past year, even the fairly negative reviews of Shock Value

-- Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, May 1, 2007 11:25 AM (11 minutes ago)

really, lots of shit written about him always. people say he's a genius and talk about some of his worst stuff all the time! cf dirt off your shoulder being kind of average as a beat

― deej, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

what's the diff. between doing this with artists and doing this with entire genres/approaches/philosophies?

well, for one thing, dogmas/genres and philosophies are usually, at least somewhat, defined in some predetermined, collective way, to let you compare the thing with the ideal of that thing. (everyone agrees that x=y=z = "Punk", a+b+c= "Adult Contemporary") An artist isn't static, they're a person making choices based on value judgements just like anyone else, be it critic or fan. When they decide that they are more interesting than the music (see:American Idol), music looses, I think. Of course, this all subjective...Maybe the artist IS the art.

― King Kitty, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

In which case criticism must wait until they are dead

― King Kitty, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

I really don'#t see how American Idol gets in there!

― Groke, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

surprised no one mentioned Tom Waits yet

― dmr, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

The initial premise of the thread 'uncritical acceptance' is the problem though, I don't even think anybody has that level of purity over anything more than a couple of albums, even the most rabid obsessive fan.

There are loads of people who are rather blind to the faults of their hero's lesser works. I couldn't pick a Velvet Underground album that I wouldn't run into a burning building to save (well, not counting squeeze or some of the live stuff), but ask me to critisise them and I could spend hours detailing the faults track by track...

Mind you, I might just be placating myself. I would have no problem ignoring logic and making statements like "well, Pale Blue Eyes is simplistic, manipulative and maudlin... and astonishingly perfect in every way" (and probably have). Or... "Black Angels Death Song is clearly the ultimate achievement of all human civilisation, but it goes on a bit and would be improved with some singing, besides, European son is better".

I'm also quite close to thinking this way about PJ Harvey but I have some issues with Dancehall - though its pretty great here and there.

― Sandy Blair, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

surprised no one mentioned Tom Waits yet

-- dmr, Tuesday, May 1, 2007 12:02 PM (4 minutes ago)

I was just thinking Tom Waits, though I think he is a unique case because even critics tend to praise everything he does as fantastic, rather than just the fans.

― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

I can think of a few bands where I wouldn't want to choose between their albums, but I'm sure if they made a few more there would be some iffy ones, so it wouldn't come from uncritical acceptance.

I kind of agree with people who are saying that the more you care about a band the more likely you are to want to rate and rank their records, but I'm not really a rating and ranting (as opposed to ranting and raving) kind of guy. I couldn't and wouldn't tell apart my favourite Go-Betweens records, but there are some I find hard to love.

The Pixies are maybe the only band where all their albums seem REALLY good to me, but I'd admit they have some ropey old B-sides and that.

So basically I don't really recognise the phenomenon Nick's asking about. Maybe I should get out more!

― byebyepride, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:18 (eighteen years ago)

Kinda like Jordan said, I assume this is often just a matter of liking the artist as a character, in addition to as a music-maker -- even when they're not successful, you're just sort of interested in what they're doing. So it might be more precise to say "I'm invested enough in this artist to find this interesting," rather than "this is really good" -- but that just raises the standard objectivity/subjectivity questions about what the difference between those two things really is.

That said, there are totally people who just like a given artist enough that ANYTHING by that artist sounds better to them than anything else -- maybe you just find someone whose voice or style appeals to you on that kind of level! Nothing really strange about that, though I suppose it requires having "narrow" tastes -- or not "narrow," but just not being the sort of critic/messageboard type who's aspiring to follow everything on a broad, analytical level. You meet plenty of people when you're young whose scope of music-following is basically "stuff on the radio" and "this one other artist I found who is my everything."

― nabisco, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

If any album by the same act sounds roughly the same, I find it not at all surprising that the act's fans like all of them.

If the act varies stylistically from album to album, it seems strange if the fans love of all them though.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

You find this all the time on bands' official messageboards. Serious criticism is often met with hostility in such places.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:56 (eighteen years ago)

I have been having some weird discussions with Michael Jackson fans claiming that "Dangerous" and "Invincible" are both masterpieces.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:59 (eighteen years ago)

please. "off the wall", no contest.

― félix pié, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

"Thriller" sure represent contest in that case. I'd even rank "Bad" ahead of "Off The Wall". But putting "Invincible" up there is blindness.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:10 (eighteen years ago)

Umm are they young people? If you're young enough not to have experienced Jackson's career as an ongoing decline, I can completely see why you'd rank latter period Jackson-with-modern-production up there with the 80s -- I mean, for people of the right age, the 80s albums are going to sound like "the old stuff"; if not outright dated, at least a little dusty and classic-sounding.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:16 (eighteen years ago)

ICP !!!!! hahaha

― earinfections, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:14 (eighteen years ago)

The Church?

― mrlynch, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:54 (eighteen years ago)

Umm are they young people?

They are old enough that they must have known him from "Dangerous" at least.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:01 (eighteen years ago)

For me: Pavement

Zappa def OTM. I have met those Zappa fans. If you don't like it, you're either not intellectual enough or you're just no fun.

― sonderangerbot, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:15 (eighteen years ago)

two years pass...

How about *critical* acceptance of an artist's entire body of work...?

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Friday, 12 February 2010 20:47 (fifteen years ago)

prefer blanket rejection of an artist's entire body of work regardless of what it sounds like

― Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Friday, 12 February 2010 21:00 (fifteen years ago)

^^^ I call this "the Keith Urban Approach"

― your extra awesome blossom (HI DERE), Friday, 12 February 2010 21:01 (fifteen years ago)

seems more like something Morbz would do

― Wrinkles, I'll see you on the other side (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 February 2010 21:03 (fifteen years ago)

How is it possible that Dylan hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet? I even like the records he doesn't like, like the S/T. I even like the Christmas record. I have a illness.

― Hardcore Homecare (staggerlee), Saturday, 13 February 2010 05:24 (fifteen years ago)

Also how is it possible that Van Morrison hasn't been mentioned here?

― Sean Carruthers, Saturday, 13 February 2010 22:27 (fifteen years ago)

Hmm i think most van morrison fans, even the biggest know he comes out with a fair amount of shit.

Funny thing about Keith Urban is there's soooo little difference between some of his stuff and Ryan Adams/Paul Westerberg, but it comes from such a supposedly different world and some of the surface details are so glossy that most people will refuse to hear it.

― Jamie_ATP, Saturday, 13 February 2010 23:38 (fifteen years ago)

See, I just don't listen to Ryan Adams or solo Westerberg. Consistency of mind!

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Sunday, 14 February 2010 00:50 (fifteen years ago)

Hmm i think most van morrison fans, even the biggest know he comes out with a fair amount of shit.

Really? Have never ever heard a bad word against the guy from any of the people I know who are into him. Maybe my experience is odd in this regard.

― Sean Carruthers, Sunday, 14 February 2010 01:37 (fifteen years ago)

Zappa's an interesting example upthread - didn't he make a big deal about considering everything he did as part of the same project/body of work, making no distinctions (in terms of worth) between the modern classical stuff/jazz fusion stuff/pop stuff? Obviously you can see why that would encourage fans to look for value in all of it.

Funny that some people describe the approach as an adolescent fandom-type thing 'cos I was exactly the opposite - as a teen I was perplexed by, say, Q magazine fawning over then-recent Dylan albums, thinking "why can they not just let it go?". Yet in my 20s I've found myself drawn to the minor records in peoples' catalogues - Neil Young and the Stones are the big ones right now - and I'd put it down to becoming more interested in the narrative of a life of making music. I like the idea of figuring out how and why the mis-steps happen and, like someone said, joining the dots to the rest of the artist's work.

― Gavin in Leeds, Sunday, 14 February 2010 19:23 (fifteen years ago)

I was a Zappa completist from 1979 to about 1995, but definitely wasn't uncritically accepting of the whole body of work. (Hated Flo & Eddie, most of his synclavier works, his crueler comedy songs.) I actually agree with Geir for once -- Rush and the Dead are better examples.

― blow it out your bad-taste hole (WmC), Sunday, 14 February 2010 19:32 (fifteen years ago)

uncritical acceptance vs. completist OCD

― M.V., Sunday, 14 February 2010 21:42 (fifteen years ago)

prefer blanket rejection of an artist's entire body of work regardless of what it sounds like

My relationship w/ Neil Young in one.

― Mark G, Monday, 15 February 2010 10:04 (fifteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

Hmm i think most van morrison fans, even the biggest know he comes out with a fair amount of shit.
Funny thing about Keith Urban is there's soooo little difference between some of his stuff and Ryan Adams/Paul Westerberg, but it comes from such a supposedly different world and some of the surface details are so glossy that most people will refuse to hear it.

YA EXCEPT KEITH URBAN IS A FUCKING TOSSER AND WESTERBERG OWNS YOU

― iiiijjjj, Sunday, 7 March 2010 04:40 (fifteen years ago)

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