New BBC Series: 'Seven Ages of Rock' starts May 19th

Just skip the program about the blues then. It looks like the least interesting part of the new series, as there was nothing geniuinely English about bluesrock.

What defines Indie?
Pundits and bands alike try to sum up what exactly indie means today.

jus watched this clip and i have a bad feeling marcello sees it there will be nulear holocaust in... etc

Indie=a kind of music that appeals to a special (ever growing) type of fans.

rap=a kind of music that appeals to a special (ever growing) type of fans.

bluegrass=a kind of music that appeals to a special (ever growing) type of fans.

darkwave=a kind of music that appeals to a special (ever growing) type of fans.

honky tonk=a kind of music that appeals to a special (ever growing) type of fans.

blog house=a kind of music that appeals to a special (ever growing) type of fans.

You can mock it, but the point is, indie did start out as "underground". Today it isn't anymore, and it hasn't been since Nirvana and Blur/Oasis set the charts on fire in the 90s, but it still appeals to the same type of fans. Only there are more of them than there used to be.

You can mock it, but the point is, rap did start out as "underground". Today it isn't anymore, and it hasn't been since Run DMC and Dr Dre/Ice Cube set the charts on fire in the 80s and 90s, but it still appeals to the same type of fans. Only there are more of them than there used to be.

You can mock it, but the point is, bluegrass did start out as "underground". Today it isn't anymore, and it hasn't been since
Ricky Skaggs ashared the stage with the now defunct jam band, Phish, but it still appeals to the same type of fans. Only there are more of them than there used to be.

"Seven Ages of Cock" more like

no, i enjoyed it, largely, lots of rare footage i hadn't seen before, hendrix as a backing musician for instance. surprised they didn't show the lulu footage (although lenny henry obliged on sunday night).

two things i didn't like - JRT's voiceover. it needs something with a bit more gravitas, i think

and, more importantly, the way the bbc obviously restaged the burning guitar incident and then used their new mocked-up footage endlessly in the last 3rd of the program.

Yeah, Good ol' Len!

SAOR: "BBC LIBrary, Can we have that Lulu show footage?"
Lib: "Sorry, it's been booked out to Channel 4/ Lenny Henry."

Yes, to the restaging which was very "color supplement". Also, stop all this "defining moment of the sixties" bol. Had enough of 'em!

seeing people leaving as Hendrix played the national anthem was pretty funny, and the place really did look like a warzone.

It was sort of Adam Hart-Davis: What Has Hendrix Ever Done For Us?

Cue Jeff Bridges: "Jimi Hendrix...phew! He's given us so many great PERFORMERS!"

There's nothing more boring than hearing that gasbag Eric Clapton go on and on about the Blues.

-- Bill Magill, Friday, May 18, 2007 4:16 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Link

i know it was taken from that 74 doc on Hendrix, screened on bbc4 at the same time, but i found that footage of clapton talking about the left handed he bought hendrix days before he died, and then beginning to cry, really affecting - not least because clapton looks about 5 minutes away from his own death. i really enjoyed the show - i already knew all the stories, but the footage (which i'd already seen) was such a joy; i got shivers from the Lulu show performance, and 'wild thing'... the who stuff, again all familiar, was a thrill to see again.

(hang on koogs, did i imagine some of that old lulu show footage on there?)

yes 8)

i don't remember it being shown as part of '7 ages...' but there was the bbc4 thing (which i didn't watch) and the lenny henry thing as well.

I only saw the last bit, but it seemed terribly dull, and didn't show anything new to me at all (bleh, maybe the Clapton was new to me, but seeing as I wish fiery death upon the man it's not something I'll use as a positive). 'Wooo, the 60s, weren't they all about love? But then they got.... DARKER (scary)... ooooh ALTAMONT was the end, oh how sad...' And that about sums it up.

CSM made my girlfriend feel ill. charles cross did the same for me.

Naah koogs, that Lulu footage was definitely in there (the Hey Joe bit, rather than the Sunshine Of Your Love bit). It's the segment where Jimi looks across to the drummer & laughs while trying to retune his guitar, and then goes into the riff from I Feel Fine.

How come I know this? I hate Jimi Hendrix, and the programme itself was desperately dull.

there was a good clip of ringo being ringo as HISTORY happened round him.

Also: agreed on CSM, what a dreadful dreadful man.

that's it, the laugh... i love that bit.

i mean, the narrative was kind of predictable, okay. but moments like jimi's laugh on Lulu, the wild thing performance at monterey... i've seen them before, but like the who footage, they still thrill (if you like that sort of thing, i guess)

Yeah, that Ringo bit was priceless! Where did that come from?

yeah, you're probably right - i would've only recognised the lulu bit if they'd've specifically said it was a lulu bit. or if it had included the 'lets stop playing this rubbish bit'. was a lot clearer on sunday night.

lulu > hendrix anyway 8)

no point or fun being popist just for the sake of it. don't be ridiculous.

thoughts?

I lasted about ten seconds with the second episode until Worzel came on and that was it.

I DVD recorded it only to find the sound hadn't recorded.

Happily, "Psychomania" was alright.

ha. my main thing was that the presence of john harris and charles sharr murray made roger waters and phil collins seem y know decent human beings. i wish these programmes would dispense with having critics as talking heads, surely a voice over could parrot the kind of trite observations they dish up? also the narrative was a little skewed, jumping from dark side of the moon straight to the wall. is the wall as awful as i think it is? (i thought all the songs sounded horrible)

is the wall as awful as i think it is?

Worse

surely a voice over could parrot the kind of trite observations they dish up?

This was the great thing about Dancing In The Streets: A History Of Rock & Roll. One bland narrator only, and only the people who made the music appeared on camera. Perfect.

I thought The Wall was quite good when I was fifteen, but then I suppose that applies to everyone.

Never mind the underemployed actor voiceover; get a proper, Kenneth Clark/David Starkey-style figure of authority to present the thing and stride purposefully around fields, etc.

Jeff Bridges?

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/arts/authorpics/alexis_petridis.jpg

Never mind the underemployed actor voiceover; get a proper, Kenneth Clark/David Starkey-style figure of authority to present the thing and stride purposefully around fields, etc.

Marcello Carlin, of course. Or Geir Hongro.

I am of course available at competitive market rates...

My presentation style is equally influenced by the Orson Welles of F For Fake and the Kenneth Griffith of Hang Out Your Brightest Colours with a touch of John Grieve.

"Rock 'n' roll - phew! It's thrown up so many great PERFORMERS! Like Pat Benatar!"

yeh but didn't they do that with JOHN HARRIS PRESENTS JOHN HARRIS' STORY OF BRITPOP AS TOLD BY JOHN HARRIS on bbc 4?

I suppose the participation of Comstock Carabinieri is out of the question?

Marc: I'm calling you out! You have that VHS documentary of the "Prisoner" from the 6 of 1 appreciation society, right? (The one narrated in style by K.Grif)

Louis Jagger's History of Rock

If I introduced Comstock into the equation I'd have to go down a Jonathan Meades route which might not be entirely apposite.

I'm afraid I must plead guilty to (a) ownership of said VHS doc and (b) membership of 6 of 1 gulp...

it is a weird and scary thought that rock criticism has yet to produce someone with the authority to carry one of these programs. i mean charles shaar murray is meant to be one the godfathers of british rock writing isn't he and all he brought to the table was "everyone who heard the velvet underground formed a band". maybe paul morley could do a decent history of pop.

I don't mind CSM but he made a bit of a howler in Episode 1, saying that when Hendrix died, Jim Morrison was already dead!

I sacked the membership after a year or so.

Funnily enough, I got talking about it at work and my immediate colleague said "Oh my uncle was the 2nd unit director" and so I brought in the same vid doc, and Robert Monks (for it was he) is all over it, interview-wise.

I suppose it could have been worse, e.g.:

Bob Mills
COMEDIAN

"Eh eh? Them flying pigs, what was that all about, eh eh? Playing behind a wall? When I was a kid we got arrested by the local copper if we got caught doing that, oho space hoppers Alessi etc."

In Bed With Medinner > all music criticism ever.

"That's what I don't want"!!!

Also, another "Prisoner" fan.

I treasure my vhs 'offtelly' of his "Graham Taylor" documentary assass...

GINA YASHERE
Comedian

"Eh, what about them BIG WHITE BALLOONS eh? And they used to chase him about the place and then she woke up and he was in the shower oh no that was the other one innit."

trying to play 'spot the reconstruction' this week as well. my money is on either the velvets playing at the therapists ball OR david bowie doing Space Oddity, i can't decide.

punk next week.

i will take 'to sir with love' over anything hendrix ever did.

How about "Guess the reconstruction" for next week then!

a) "Bob Harris gets beat up by Sid Vicious"

original space oddity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67kmFzSh_o

looks nothing like him!

i thougt i might have been over reacting to the voiceover but seems everyone feels the same. he's all over the place.

i do love the idea that 15-19 year olds country-wide tuned in and among the usual classic rock suspects and whatnot, they saw VIRGINIA PLAIN and thought 'woah what the...' and have gone and downloaded a stack of that stuff.

More likely they thought, ugh, Scissor Sisters' grandad.

i will take 'to sir with love' over anything hendrix ever did.

Nice to see poptimism continuing to dig its own grave.

there was a pretty nice documentary about the old grey whistle test on last night. mark radcliffe, paul morley and charles shaar murray amongst others did the talking head thing and were informative rather than annoying. thou it must be stated again and again that punk is not the be all and end all of rock culture in britain. freebird is not to be scoffed at! camel though probably is. also jarvis cocker could possibly do a decent "story of pop" series.

No! We don't want greasy old Steptoe grandad Jarvis doing the Story of Pop!

"Freebird" is guttate gristle.

The Snow Goose was a pretty good album.

did you not think much of that one where he went and met loads of old folks from the history of british pop tv?

ENOUGH OF OLD FOLKS

Get Lex to present it.

someone who likes music, perhaps?

Not all music likers are televisually compatible.

THIS IS HOW FEARNE COTTON STARTED

http://www.elbowsteve.co.uk/ferncotton/fearne%20cotton%204.jpg http://indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/may2006/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_nazipriestssalutehitler.jpg

Well, exactly. I've no idea why the granddaughter of Bill Cotton Jr has come so far in her career.

Hello children. "I'm a little teapot, short and stout"

>Well, exactly. I've no idea why the granddaughter of Bill Cotton Jr has come so far in her career.

Except she's not.

Where did I say she was?

No doubt they'll hire Danny Baker to do the Story Of Pop: "redoubtable redoubtable Donald Fagen and Anthony NOOley you nasty Nazi..."

http://www.elbowsteve.co.uk/ferncotton/fearne%20cotton%204.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Rogerdaltrey-ridearockhorse1.jpg

Hmm, "Ride a Fearne Cotton"..

haha is that real? 'ride a rock horse'?? 1:40 am is no time to be laughing out loud.

It is kind of real, yes.

So I finished watching episode one of this series this morning and thought it was a load of old rubbish. I think some of the geezers wilfully misunderstand the songs, ie, Sympathy for the Devil really is an attempt to big up Beelzebub ratheer than an anti-war song, or an anti-bad things song.

SFTD was pure poetry. They never bettered it. Who could?

Sandie Shaw's version was better.

yeah. Only album to have "SFTD" *and* Love me do?

I have got that album. I like her Led Zep best.

Well, that was a suprisingly bland canter around the punk age of rock, hardly straying at all from punk orthodoxy established in previous documentaries.

I find the narration quite irritating, particularly where subjective and questionable opinions are presented as fact.

The 'rock family trees' series was a lot better.

The 'rock family trees' series was a lot better.

otfm, sooner it gets repeated, or even better , some new ones made the better.

That was awful. CSM is this moldy old hag who trundles out the same dross year in, year out - which would be good if it was the Truth, rather than one truth amongst many - HIStory. Oh well, roll on Metal - he knows even less about that.

nice to end with poptones but yes pretty much the same old, same old. i thought jon savage was david byrne at first glance.

Yeah this was pretty tedious orthodoxy - I even said to the missus before it was on it would be. This stuff is usually enjoyable to watch but even I'm tired of constantly regurgitated Punk 76-78 programs - I was much more interested in the disco/hip hop/proto-punk program on BBC4 after it.

It's always same old self-congratulatory Johnny Lydon clips.

who would win in an arguement lydon or mark e smith?

*argument

I would like to think Mark E Smith would tear JL to shreds. What I really dislike about JL's punk-related rants is how he positions himself as this visionary who basically invented the whole thing and how they were the "real thing" while also dismissing any other bands who share the claim as primitive bashing. Of course they were primitive bashing, that's the whole fucking point! I have no problem with him not liking punk rock and going into PIL instead, I love PIL, at least the 1st 3 albums, but he acts like he's the beginning and end of punk rock and anything after him is irrelevant or just copying him.

That said, I do like his insect progammes.

I was much more interested in the disco/hip hop/proto-punk program on BBC4 after it.

its been on a couple of times, but its very good. this new series seems to use huge chunks of already existing documentaries - it seems very lazy. and its very much a 'dummy's guide' with no new revelations, just a retelling of the Received Wisdom.

HAI GUYZ ONLY A FEW PEOPLE HEARD THE VELVET UNDERGROUND FIRST TIME ROUND.................

BUT THEY ALL WENT OUT AND FORMED BANDS!!1!!!

BY THE MID-SEVENTIES, PROG ROCK EAGLES SELF-INDULGENT SONGS ABOUT TOURING GOBLINS BIG COUNTRY HOUSE COCAINE..............

Its a shame they didn't use Captain Sensible instead of Brian James...His 'old man steptoe singing over a heavy metal riff' description of Anarchy In the UK would have provided a necessary counterbalance to Lydon's unchallenged claims...

i switched over when matlock started talking about the three day week and bodies piling up in the streets... the three day week was in 1974. the gravediggers' strike (or whatever it was; it didn't affect london) was 1978-9.

Oh my god, the episode on "Alternative Rock" is the shittiest rock doc i've ever seen, those late night infomercials of classic rock box sets are better...they should have called it "Michael Stipe and Kurt Cobain". I really don't think I can bear to finish watching the punk one...(find these on youtube if you dare) Are the earlier episodes any better?

i dunno but the one they showing RIGHT NOW (on indie and britpop) is lollerlicious.

wow john harris could've been culture secretary under john majors.

According to Mani, the Roses were 'the blackest white people ever'.

qft

this is basically the same as that other britpop doc. lameness.

tina turner getting much hate.

OH MY GOD COUNTRY HOUSE VS ROLL WITH IT

i may start a poll on killing myself.

i had kind of managed never to hear the libertines till this evening. what a load of shit.

the libertines' neighbour took umbrage when they were playing a gig in their fucking flat, and they all, fans and band, laughed at her, the cunts.

this series certainly seems to excite you...I've already given up on it.

'Rock is now like other artforms - where innovation occurs under the influence of what went before'

this programme was so many kinds of wrong.

Indeed.

It was called "British Indie" yet it wasn't really about indie, rather a few bands who crossed into the mainstream.

There was no understanding of the community that drove indie, no attempt to get into the subculture as they did with the punk docs.

Charles Shaar Murray's hand is all over this - the classic rock canon established, now young bands can carry on in this great traditon, while middle aged men can tap their toes to bands who remind them of their youth. It was so cosy!

As for the notion that the Libertines brought things back to being rebellious, brought the true indie spirit back - what rot. That spirit has never died, it just remains underground.

yeah it barely covered what i think of as "indie" -- c86 and aftermath basically, stuff i don't know very well but surely merits a documentary more than the boring roses-oasis axis. maconie and harris dominated the episode and their 'formative' bands were the smiths and the roses. of course they're comfortable with the idea that music doesn't need to advance. it saves them time.

Surely any look at British indie would have to start with the less abrasive side of post-punk, ie Orange Juice? But then that would undermine the attempt to fit The Smiths into the classic rock canon.

I didn't really expect them to go into C86 in great detail, although it would have been nice if they'd at least acknowledged it. Likewise, why no mention of Belle & Sebastian, a band who defined a different kind of indie to Britpop? But then that wouldn't fit their thesis. Pulp got short shrift too - lumped in with the inconsequential likes of Echobelly (WTF?)

And what about the complete absense of the Fall? MBV?

That Live Forever doc wasn't great, but to its credit all it claimed to be was about Britpop. This was just awful.

not sure what you guys were expecting from this show. the Libertines house gig footage was strange. altho their behaviour was obv. selfish it did bring home how relatively novel they were in some areas (none musical alas). i think a Liberteensy concept in nu-rave format minus heroin could have potential

This was not the story of UK indie, it was the story of indie into mainstream.
I appreciate it's unrealistic to expect a comprehensive in depth look at the history of British indie - that would require a series - but they could have done something far richer than this, something that actually reflected the diversity of indie. I also resented that fact it boiled everything down to London vs Manchester, when surely one of the defining characteristics of indie, and one of its strengths, is its roots in local scenes, and the networks between these scenes.

I really hate the trend for music docs that discuss acts in terms of their mainstream impact than their musical innovations. It's such a boring way of looking at things, as if the programme makers don't credit their audience with the intelligence to think about art critically.

if they can have a show about punk, why not one about c86/shoegaze/tru-skool britpop/belle & seb, ect?

Missed this, might watch for lolz. Last week's "Kurt Cobain was a bit troubled, shit happened round about it, oh aye, and the Pixies existed somewhere and, hey, they didn't really do choruses but they did quiet bits then loud bits, cor, that's revolutionary" was the worst bit of allegedly-serious music commentary I think I've ever encountered.

I've only seen the metal one and that was crap. Metallica were the last metal band apparently.

Cos Charles Shaar Murray and his peers don't have a clue about anything after punk probably.

I don't get why the house show thing is such a novelty. Plenty of underground bands do this, have been doing so for years. It's just that the Libertines were savvy enough to use the internet to spread the word and then present it as something radically new. Also they were a bit more mercenary about it, asking people to pay for the privilege so they can pay their dealer, ahem, I mean landlord.

Also, why no Riot Girl? Come to think of it, was there a single woman featured on the show, bar Sonya out of Echobelly?

I missed the US indie one, but am I right in thinking the missed out Sonic Youth? I mean, WTF?

Have Dinosaur Jr, Sebadoh, Primal Scream, JAMC been mentioned in any?

JAMC were mentioned in this one, on UK indie.

haha, did they not mention Sandi Thom on "house shows promoted via teh interwebs"?

Also, yeah, they did the whole American 1990s grungetastic thing last week like Sonic Youth didn't exist.

(plz to explain why Sebadoh should rate a mention?)

JAMC were on it very briefly. Admittedly great clip of In A Hole with Bobby G banging away on drums, with commentary over much of it. I guess it was there to represent the edgier side of indie. Cocteau Twins were mentioned in passing - blink and you'll miss it clip of them without any music.

No Primal Scream, which I thought was odd. You'd think they might have mentioned Screamadelica when they were running through the baggy era.

The lack of critique in it too. No mention of the fact that Country House and Roll With It were such weak singles, something the bands themselves admit.

Ignoring SY is inexplicable! Huge influence on Nirvana. I mean, it was them getting signed to Geffen that led to Nirvana following them. Huff puff etc.

It's a shame they can pump the programme up as "from the makers of Dancing In The Street", which was beautifully made, eclectic and distinctly un-rockist. But then it had Tony Palmer as the main writer and people like Donn Letts directing - people with a much more interesting take on pop history than Charles Shaar Murray.

(plz to explain why Sebadoh should rate a mention?)

I'm just about to watch the US alternative rock one on youtube. My bets are that Pavement aren't in it!

I wonder who is!

You do have a TV, right - didn't you see any of it? (don't think Pavement were mentioned either - it was tremendously revisionist and glossy, so I don't get why, reading this thread, you think the kind of bands that don't sell papers - this totally wasn't about the music - might have warranted a mention)

So, yeah, it was about Big Old Radio-Friendly Music, don't think lo-fi Sebadoh shit that didn't do big business in the UK was on the agenda at all. It was Nirvana, Pixies, REM and Neil Young (via suicide note) mostly.

"when a handful of bands restored authenticity, meaning and passion to rock music."

A handful? A handful? Aarrrrgggghhhhh!!!

Who are the morons writing this shit? Do they know anything?

And oh christ, here's Charles Cross "Kurt was the last great rock star." Fuck off you boring old fart, you wouldn't even put him on the cover of your paper and now you're setting yourself up as the authority.

(that's Kurt Cobain's suicide note, before some pedantic wanker points out that Neil Young hasn't left a suicide note what with not being dead and all)

xpost

That was rubbish. You can understand why Everett True was compelled to do his "reclaim Nirvana for punk rock" book.
Such huge assumptions made - Nirvana would have turned into REM, they would have become a nice mature rock band etc.
No mention of Olympia. But then the whole revisionist Rolling Stone version of rock history keeps that as a footnote. They couldn't even bring themselves to say who Kathleen Hanna was. She was just a friend of the band. Would it really have been so hard to say, "Kathleen Hanna of the band Bikini Kill"?
Wrong headedness aside, it was quite a badly made series at times. Too many talking heads going over the same minor points. I mean last night, how long did they spend going over Blur jumping on the baggy bandwagon? Must have used about four talking heads plus voiceover to get across a simple point.
Or the pointless in the studio with Scott Litt stuff. Here's how they tracked the harmonies on The One I Love. Woo, big deal! Show me Lee Perry or Holger Czukay at a mixing desk - fine. But a fairly standard rock production? Why? What insight is to be gained in hearing a guitar and mandolin part broken down?

im kinda enjoying this despite myself. i mean its not geared at the buffs who have read all the books or whatever but theres a lot of people out there who dont know that REM have been around since the early 80's and so on.

a brief aside to sonic youth is inexcusable though

i mean its not geared at the buffs who have read all the books or whatever but theres a lot of people out there who dont know that REM have been around since the early 80's and so on.

not being funny like, but does every television programme have to appeal to everyone, have to assume zero knowledge? sports coverage doesn't take this LCD approach.

That one guy OTM. I'm aware the show wasn't aimed at the buffs, but it could at least be intelligent.
The US one was promising for the five minutes it spent on Black Flag and the establishment of the indie rock circuit, but then it briefly mentioned Husker Du, before getting back to REM and Nirvana.
Dancing In the Street pulled this off beautifully. Of course there was lots of stuff left out, but it covered the obvious stuff, while still managing to get in a few lesser known names. I was 15 when it aired and it basically got me started on everything from the Velvet Undeground to Stevie Wonder to Kraftwerk to Public Enemy. It was also beautifully directed and well written, with quite an idiosyncratic take on things. I've got most of them on tape and watch them every so often and they're still interesting cos they have great interviews, amazing footage and let the artists tell the story - there's a voice over, but it just sets things up, it doesn't peddle any particular line.

That doesn't read quite clearly. I added the second sentence, so the link between "intelligent" and "Dancing In THe Streets pulled this off" is lost.

iirc the only talking heads in DITS were actual artists, producers, figureheads like Mclaren etc. - NO CRITICS

Johnny Marr still the coolest man in rock, Alex Kapranos/Kaiser Bods bunch of twunts (though I do like FF).

No Radiohead unsurprisingly, but their story doesn't fit with the retrofitting approach of the narrative.

Will someone moan if i say that The Melvins should've been included in the us altrock one? They're still an influence on bands today nevermind 20 years ago.

o god right radiohead! fucking hell, i had sort of forgotten. so so so weak spending all that time on oasis.

There were fuckloads of bands that could/should have been included in every episode I've seen of this programme(I think I missed one, and haven't seen this week's). It's basically been completely oversimplified rubbish all the way through.

I did skip lightly over the surface, this series. Another squandered chance. But I still kinda enjoyed the brit indie one, for the footage of the Smiths and wotnot. And I really really enjoyed the blipvbert length clip of the Wedding Present, so quick it was almost subliminal.
Brett Anderson was talking bollocks, "the squares at The Brit Awards were scared out of their posh tuxedos at our subversive amazingness".
Yes dear. That's right.

The ending was wierd as well. "But indie is stronger than ever in the hands of the Arctic Monkeys, and... er... franz... ferdinand... Arctic Monkeys everyone!"

The metal one was more entertaining, but this this was watchable at least. Unlike the stadium rock episode which focused on Bruce 'interesting' Springsteen. That was mind-shatteringly dull television.

I'm glad I missed them then.

I seem to have enjoyed this series more than anyone else round here; certainly the US/UK indie docs -while telling me nothing new- seemed quite well put together. Maybe I had lower expectations.
However, the thing that irked me most about the UK indie programme was the incessant "The Smiths were a bolt from the blue" hype. What nonsense. There was plenty of literate, witty, guitar-based music around in the charts pre-Moz (Orange Juice, Associates, Aztec Camera, Teardrop Explodes, Bunnymen), and, while The Smiths were obviously better than all these bands (yes they were), they weren't alone, and they weren't the first.

But they were the only one who sold records in America.

Even with that in mind, though, I can't imagine how you could do a documentary of this kind and not mention Radiohead or the Manics, or give Pulp or Elastica nothing more than a cursory, nanosecond-long mention, but they managed it.

So this great half-century journey culminated in F Ferdinand doing "Take Me Out." Needn't have bothered, need they?

Pulp? One-hit wonders, apparently...

Ask Marcello!

'Rock is now like other artforms - where innovation occurs under the influence of what went before'

-- sonofstan, Saturday, June 30, 2007 9:27 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Link

And you lot! moaning about how 'no mention of the Melvins' seems to confirm that your viewpoint of 'each new big successful band is the sum of various parts of the bands that were previous' math work.

Can't you give 'originality' at least some space?

I watched the Heavy Metal one, it's the one ep where I know little about the subject.

I still felt that the story was only half-told.

But one-hit wonders the Inspiral Carpets got a full minute! (yes, I know they had more than one hit but off the top of your head etc.)

Ah, but Noel "worked in their office"!

John Humphreys on the Nine O'Clock News spitting out the words "Blur" and "Oasis" as though they were musical expectorant.

At that point, they zoomed in on the very point-of-sale display place where I bought the Blur single(s). Possibly even the very copy itself.

Another reason why they should have done an episode on New Pop; to explain the TOTP wasteland in which "This Charming Man" arrived (and even then it only peaked at #25 behind such worthies as Roland Rat Superstar and Dennis Waterman And George Cole).

The metal one was more entertaining, but this this was watchable at least. Unlike the stadium rock episode which focused on Bruce 'interesting' Springsteen. That was mind-shatteringly dull television.

I actually thought the exact opposite of this. According to the show, all the metal bands that ever existed were Black Sabbath, Ozzy solo, Poison and Metallica. At least the stadium rock one looked at why it happened, and in concentrating on Springsteen showed how one person exploited it to his own ends, while having pretty healthy contempt for having to do it.

And another thing - Seven Ages Of Rock and they ignore the one band which has existed and prospered throughout all seven of these ages.

Whither Status Quo?

They already had Oasis

i missed one of these due to usual bbc1 repeat being bumped to the following friday by glastonbury.

i did catch the Don Letts punk think which was remarkable if only for shots of Rollins with long hair and wearing nothing but swimming trunks at a black flag gig. my eyes. (always tickles me that he ended up presenting a tv show alongside Cathy Heavenly)

> if they can have a show about punk, why not one about c86 / shoegaze / tru-skool britpop / belle & seb, ect?

the whole thing was very much intended for american audiences. shows highlighting the brilliance of The Sweetest Ache wouldn't play well in minnesota.

libertines playing impromptu gigs to raise instant money for 'rent and gas bills'. yeah, right...

but worth watching for another couple of seconds of the mary chain, the Whistle Test(?) performance that split the sixth form common room down the middle the day after it was originally aired. i don't remember jim stopping the song like that.

Ramones story on more4 tonight btw.

They couldn't even bring themselves to say who Kathleen Hanna was. She was just a friend of the band. Would it really have been so hard to say, "Kathleen Hanna of the band Bikini Kill"?

haha, yes. Already tired of how narrow its focus was, I was pleased to hear that namecheck, then baffled by her being no more than "Kurt's friend". And there I was thinking it was already kind of stupid that past Nirvana documentaries had mentioned "Kurt's friend Dylan Carlson".

I missed the first five or ten minutes of the indie one, so for me British indie was The Smiths splitting up, The Stones Roses existing for a while, then Oasis battling it out with Blur. Huzzah!

Any chance this will be released on DVD? (I imagine the licensing for all the video footage, live recordings and so on would be pretty impressive, but this is the BBC...)

J&MC Whistle test: Stopping the song like what?

Jim shouted "stop! stop!!!" at one point, whereupon the horrible racket they were making ground to a thankful halt. Koogs is right; this wasn't in the original broadcast. I'm assuming this was a tape of the "rehearsal".

Unless it was another of the programme's ill-advised "reconstructions".

this ep was 'how indie killed itself'. i only caught the last 40 mins or so. i'll watch the rest later.

ooh! want! want!

(pssh, what are the chances? They probably used that by mistake!)

Although, how do they do those shows? They ask for the video, they get it onto a copy tape, then drop the segment in, right? (I used to work in these places)...

>the whole thing was very much intended for american audiences. shows >highlighting the brilliance of The Sweetest Ache wouldn't play well in >minnesota.

How is this show meant for an American audience? What American will ever see it? It's BBC produced anyway... I doubt the American funding stipulated 4 mentions of the Pixies, but no mentions of Pavement, etc.

Metal: no ACDC, no Whitesnake
Glam: no Marc Bolan
Indie: no Dog-Faced Hermans, no Death By Milkfloat

The series is a US/UK co-production and most of the finance came from the US side.

"The true banner of indie is carried nowadays by Rascall Flatts and Dave Matthews Band"

where was steve albini? how come we had to sit and suffer scott litt banging on every 10 minutes and no mention of him?

the whole 'kurt had the UNPLUGGED venue dressed like a funeral...' spiel and then the scott litt waffling that 'it had to end there with that scream...' on the last song etc felt like a stupid and dangerous thing to do. suggesting to a new audience that may not know the whole story that he maybe planned to kill himself afterwards and so on.

they made it sound like that was the last ever nirvana gig and it wasn't.

Never mind Albini - just the one, very brief, passing referral to C**rtn*y L*v*? Were the producers feart of her lawyers?

>>ooh! want! want!

>>(pssh, what are the chances? They probably used that by mistake!)

Unlikely in the extreme. For a clip such as this one, they would normally just call up the completed programme as broadcast. It would be a very vigilant film researcher that would call up rehearsal/insert tapes too (which, by rights, shouldn't even exist). But, judging from some of the hyper-obscure Smiths footage also included, the film researcher *was* very vigilant.

The series is a US/UK co-production and most of the finance came from the US side.

-- Marcello Carlin, Monday, 2 July 2007 11:31 (1 hour ago) Link

Yeah, but that's still irrelevent when it's made exclusively for the UK audience and written/produced by the BBC (it's British, I hear), thus making the "made for the American audience" argument invalid since no US audience is ever going to see this.

There's probably some cultural diplomacy involved (rock = something from America that's not war, etc.), but I doubt some American government agent was rubbing his hands like "yeah, more Pixies, less Pavement... yes... excellent..."

Well, the Jesus & Mary Chain "In a hole" footage was originally shown twice. (yeah, I know, contradition in terms there)..

So, my guess is that the whole thing is filed under "J&MC Session" and the OGWT progs dropped in the completed song as per performance, and the 7Ags show just picked a satisfactory part of the whole session as illustration.

ooh what was the hyper-obscure smiths footage?? didnt see the last ep.

The point is that the BBC made the programme with a view to selling it overseas, so they have to concentrate on acts who are "internationally known" on a major-selling level.

did no one else think it was a bit of a dour ending that they basically admitted at the end that nothing new can be done, the best you can hope for now is just reassembling elements of the past (and thats it, more or less)?

the kind words from john harris and noel gallagher about the libertines seemed a bit forced.

As regards the Smiths footage, it seemed to consist of a snatch of their TOTP appearance with "This Charming Man" followed by an extract from the Hacienda gig which they allegedly played later the same night.

> Yeah, but that's still irrelevent when it's made exclusively for the UK audience and written/produced by the BBC (it's British, I hear), thus making the "made for the American audience" argument invalid since no US audience is ever going to see this.

a quick google says that the north american rights for the series have been sold to VH-1

wasn't there also dressing room footage of the smiths?

It was all fashionably smudged up.

"Fashionably smudged up"!!! It was probably shot on domestic equipment (which in 1983 meant a VHS camcorder), then passed through over-compensatory video noise reduction to make it watchable. This process -while removing noise- makes the picture rather smeary. Priceless stuff, nevertheless.

In terms of removing noise, it's a pity they couldn't remove Julian Rhind-Tutt's hugely irritating narration.

were the housemartins in it?

No.

But a generous amount of time was devoted to the Libertines, so that's near enough.

that's very unkind marcello. paul heaton is surely the melodic elephant in this almost empty room.

Unfortunately he didn't sell in America.

And also, unlike Tommy Doherty, he is not a "character."

Isn't he the only convicted football hooligan to have a #1 single, though?

surely the housemartins were the first "indie" act to get properly big, first to get a no 1 single anyway?

Unfortunately they didn't sell in America.

marr has always said that HAPPY HOUR was a rip of I WANT THE ONE I CAN'T HAVE. he sort of has a point.

ha. i read marr as andrew marr and thought you were making a zing about some of his *alleged* revisionism in his history of britain program. happy hour is about thatcher thou innit...

Uhhhh10 is a moron. They said American funding, not funding by the American government (we don't have anything really equivalent to the BBC). And we get a lot of BBC shows over here. The rest of the post was too stupid too even bother with.

Intended to market overseas doesn't/shouldn't mean 'can only focus on bands known/successful outside the US and UK'. do they really base it on the logic that less people will watch if they haven't heard of everyone being talked about? it'd ridiculous.

Sorry Bill Magill, but you can choke on my hairy, foul-smelling balls. Are you one of those Brit-appeasing paste-o-philes? the only British shows we get here are those dusty Britcoms 60 year olds watch on the PBS affiliates. Otherwise, only a handful of digital cable owners get BBC4 if they select it as part of their package.

But, if the intention is for the BBC to sell it overseas, then that makes sense.

Not sure what a Brit appeasing past-o-phile is, douchebag. I've actually seen some recent music-related BBC stuff on my tv, which does't happen to get BBC4. I don't know where "here" is for you but it sounds like the tv options are about as good as the education you received.

And no thanks on the offer re: your balls-I'd like to instead take the opportunity to kick the living shit out of you.

take it outside, you two!

not in MY gym!

Henry S Cooper?

lol noobs

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_query=seven%20ages%20of%20rock&search_sort=video_date_uploaded&search_category=0&search=Search&v=

there's your last episode right there in full. well 9 parts, but 'full' if you get me.

Is there a DVD version of this yet?

That kind of stuff rarely makes it here, but as I will be in UK next week I thought there might be a chance to pick it up, if available. I really want to see this series.

Looks like these people finally realise there's more to DVD entertainment than rock history programs. Now good and about time.

fap? (x-post)

Finally managed to find these as a Torrent, and have subsequently burned them to a DVD to watch in calm. Have already seen the indie episode, and it was ace. I never get tired of this kind of series, and in this case, he covers a lot of genres who have been sort of skipped in earlier series. (I guess the first and third programs are the only ones covering genres that have largely been covered very comprehensively by similar documentaries earlier)

this is basically the same as that other britpop doc. lameness.

I would say no. For starters, the other doc completely ignored Suede. This one, on the other hand, has none of Liam Gallagher, whose statements are entertaining and fun, but completely uniformative as the guy cannot possibly have an IQ of more than 50 at most.

Plus you have the entire indie history here, not just those few years from 93-94 until 1997-98. And there's also less of that other contemporary stuff such as Brit Art etc. This one concentrates on the music.