jarvis cocker "pop is dead"

Haven't people been saying this about pre-fab pop, since, well, the Motown girl group era?

Actually,no! Since Frank Sinatra!

Since the birth of recorded music!

Pop music has always been an industrialised process.

I'm glad of Pop-X-factor-stars adacemy, as it makes it plain.

If people want to do it differently, that's what to do it differently from.

xpost exactly.

Many years from now:

"wow, do you remember all those talent shows? They'd sing Abba songs! Grease! Elvis! Beatles! How old fashioned/naff it all seems now!"

i thought jarvis cocker was dead

Jarvis Cocker really should fuck off and do more adverts for multinational banks.

weirdly i think pop is more alive than ever. im more worried about everything else.

As a wealthy tax exile in Paris I would say that Cocker has forfeited the right to comment about anything like this and should shut the fuck up before he makes an even bigger embarrassment of himself than he has done over the last year or so.

well that's something.

people who worry more about pop than about 'everything else' worry me.

xpost

At least Cocker goes after the tough targets. First Razorlight, then The X-Factor. I'm eagerly awaiting a stinging attack on Milli Vanilli by the year end.

(particularly in view of his fondness for up-to-date cutting edge acts like Motorhead and the Jesus and Mary Chain) (self xpost)

JARVIS BLASTS VIDEO CULTURE
"I can't get my Betamax to work."

Downloading: all well and good but you CAAAAN'T HOLD IT IN YOUR HAND EH

ah look.

He's still in that position where someone asks him a question "so what do you think of x factor" or suchlike, and his response is headline news.

These things always remind me of John Lennon's book, where vox-pop interviewer asks people on the street about various things, and they all answer back "but on the other hand, who are we to judge? I mean, who are we?"

I kinda feel like you should go after the Guardian and/or RFH for continuing to hold him up as this enduring pop-intellect Great British Figure, rather than the guy who gets asked questions and offers pat but, really, not very outlandish opinions

guh xpost

He's still in that position where someone asks him a question "so what do you think of x factor" or suchlike, and his response is headline news.

is this actually in the paper (i'm betting it isn't actually a headline) or on one of the guardian's blogs though? they seem to have a lot of space to fill. they do it all for us.

Also I really want to get to the Devo thing

My guess this is from his front page Radio Times interview this week. Can't they go back to putting John Thaw on the cover each week?

I'm going to the Devo thing. Would like to go and see up-to-date cutting edge acts Motorhead and the Jesus and Mary Chain as well, but not at seated venue for £45.

JARVIS COCKER BLASTS MODERN DAY COP SHOWS: "I find that a lot of police dramas on TV nowadays use actors rather than real policeman which detracts from the power of a good cop show. When I was growing up, people like Bodie, Doyle, and Dixon all meant so much more than any Gene Hunt ever could"

JARVIS SAYS "I LOVE POP MUSIC"
"It was terrible that it was kept off the top by Bright Eyes."

Seriously, though, why does the media continue to give any space to this clapped-out one hit wonder? What next - Althia and Donna on the Putin nuclear threat?

ironydetector.jpg

JARVIS BLASTS "THIS NEEDLESS WAR"
"I mean, it's only a few sheep, isn't it? The Argies might have a point, you know."

get used to it chaps, old-timers like bryan ferry and david bowie and john lydon and and and still get column inches, and they still seem to have years left in them. we have, what? 40 more of jarv, potentially.

My definition of hit:

a track that you can play to most anyone and they will say "ah that's ....." and be correct.

Jarv = "Common People", "Disco 2000" and that's two.

babies goddammit

if you sang "you could be my girlfriend, yay yay yay yeah yeah yeah" to yr mum, would she go "bzzz: Pulp!" in a pub quiz?

"most anyone" not "indie kids" Louis

No, she'd section me for attempted incest (xpost).

Ask the man in the street and they'll say:
(a) Michael Jackson, arse
(b) Britpop
(c) Common People
(d) who?

In tomorrow's Guardian: Scatman John's views on the McCann search.

COCKER BLASTS LACK OF RESPECT IN MODERN DAY BRITAIN
"The Aretha version was number eleven this week in 1967 but Dale didn't play it."

that's you, that is!

ok ok, hes taking easy potshots... BUT is he that wrong? whats on mainstream music programmes and on the radio is fucking boring. i know cos i have to listen to radio 1 all day at work. its soul destroying. then again, radio 1 has probably been soul destroying for decades.

COCKER BLASTS RADIO ONE
"Can't they get someone a bit younger than Jimmy Young in the mornings?"

He has a point that reality TV pop shows aren't set up to reward idiosyncratic vocalists. But on the other hand the UK indie sector isn't producing that many memorable new vocalists anyway - Arctic Monkeys fella I suppose counts but then who?

Also the last time there was this much music from the "independent sector" getting into the Top 40 was....Britpop!

COCKER BLASTS BRITPOP
"The Love Affair don't play on their own records!"

Jarvis Cocker, winner of Stars In Your Eyes, having a go at X-Factor lolz

Haven't people been saying this about pre-fab pop, since, well, the Motown girl group era?

JARVIS BLASTS MANUFACTURED POP
"I got a scratch on my Corgi Monkeemobile and the newsagent wouldn't give me my money back waah!"

# of singles by Reality TV winners in current UK Top 40: zero.

# of singles by stars in yr eyes winners in current UK Top 40: zero.

Pop Idols/Fame Academy/American Idol whatevah aren't half as omnipresent on the charts as people seem to think; I can still go through hours of MTV without seeing a talent show contestant. Plus really before they were around you'd have just as many generic blah ballads, these shows have only really succeeded in putting that sort of music into focus enough for people to whine in more concrete terms.

xpost what Groke said

haven't people been using the trite motown example as a counterpunch since, well, the motown-era. oh yes. and it still blows.

I agree. There are decades and decades of post-Motown awesome manufactured pop to hold up as examples instead!

The last appearance by a Stars In Their Eyes winner in the UK top 40 was last December, when "Another One Bites The Dust" by Queen vs Miami Project saw a placement for SITE's 2000 winner Freddie Mercury.

(I don't mean that Motown blows, of course, just saying that there have been hundreds of awesome pre-fab teen idols both before and after the Motown heyday.)

COCKER BLASTS STARS IN THEIR EYES
"That Just Jackson record has nothing to do with the programme I was on. I say, bring back Karl Denver!"

hang on.

So, the last hit single that has "Queen" as artist, actually features a freddie mercury impersonator?

in (semi)defence of jarvis, do you think that *english* pop music has lost (some of) its own voice/distinctiveness? and that the music he grew up on had this characteristic of 'englishness', and thats what he is missing?

tough shit innit. times change.

I dunno 696, it seems to me there's quite a lot of self-consciously English music around atm: Lily A, Arctic M, Kaiser C etc etc to name the really obvious ones.

Well, again, if someone asks you "what do you think of reality TV pop shows", what do you say?

1) yeah
2) noh
3) goh awaie

?

I say "their time has gone. Variety acts are the future. Plate spinners, jugglers, comedy dogs, that sort of thing."

all those things are correct groke, im just wondering if his dream top40s (late70s early80s i guess??) had a much higher percentage of english, or perhaps...englishy music in them than today?

'englishy'? like britpop?

i wouldn't have thought so, the charts seem as british as ever. you might be right re idea of 'british characters' absence tho (the Allen & Winehouse Revue is not we have in mind).

yea like britpop i guess. are you saying you think jarvis thinks a time when jarvis was in the charts is better than a time when jarvis isnt in the charts

its possible

Ha Ha Ha, Jarvis Cocker is living in the past!

Because he ripped into an obvious target that's been 'round for a few years now!

Oh, I get the joke now!

did you laugh out loud or just on the inside?

maybe swap english for idiosyncratic and english or maybe just idiosyncratic.

KNOCK KNOCK!

WHO'S THERE?

JARVIS!

JARVIS WHO?

THAT'S SHOWBIZ!

"the Allen & Winehouse Revue is not we have in mind"

why not? not 'ye olde english' enough?

i thought jarvis might like winehouse for her slightly kitsch 60s-isms (ditto for candy payne although she is awful). either way, jarvis just seems to be suffering from a bit of musical menopause - i like the fact hes at least honest about his 'grumpy old man' status.

I expected better of him.

Isn't life just full of little disappointments?

I know I'm still trying to get over the crushing blow of Kevin Shields saying he didn't really like any dubstep.

Who?

Does Jarvis not know that THERE'S A NEW MUSIC TAKING OVER THE COUNTRY?

Quipped Jarvis at a specially arranged press conference: "What, you mean like Tammy Wynette and that?"

I generally don't laugh much before 7am but Marcello is making me giggle quite a bit.

Mr. Cocker played a show last month at a venue where my friend works, and I went over when he was having drinks with some people afterwards...I bet my friend (who LOVES him) $100 to call him "Jarv" without laughing or apologizing. She couldn't do it! Ha.

as far as people who jarvis likes thats are **new**, he likes this band called the hour. i saw them live once and thought were shit. but they might be good on record.

*the hourS

obv didn't give them the time of day.

Jarvis likes The Gossip and Cancer Da Da Sexy and many of the other worst bands of the day as well.

The Hours featuring Anthony Genn, whom Cocker has known since he was thirteen, and they are awful.

JARVIS DIGS THE GOSSIP
"They always get me going when they come on the Kenny Everett show."

JARVIS ON THE FRONT OF RADIO TIMES (this is true)

"POP STARS ARE ACTUALLY INFERIOR TO NORMAL PEOPLE"

MARCELLO SAYS: "GIVE US YOUR MONEY THEN"

JARVIS SAYS: "AMERIE IS COOL!"
"I've always loved his impressions, especially when he does Ooh You Are Awful."

Kudos.

i guess it's just lucky no one told marcello about the simon reynolds / john harris conference.

Why? Do they think pop is dead as well?

one the wrote a book about the "death of british rock" the other invented a "genre" called "hauntology".

because they're so in touch with what kids on the street are thinking.

Next year at Hay-on-Wye, Ken C and I are booked to do some ventriloquist spinning. It's a Julio Cortazar deal.

This is poptimism gone crazy. The GB charts are lame at the moment!! The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes. Meltdown may be k-lame, but don't let your enemy's friend be your enemy just for the sake of feeling smug.

But if ILM didn't have it's regular smugathons how would the world know of Marcello Carlin?

lol fanboys

The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.
The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.

Meltdown line-up does look pretty amazing to me, but then I suppose I'm an unreconstructed rockist.

Comical to watch people flipping out over the 'pop is dead' statement in the same way I find myself doing over the recurring 'punk is dead' threads.

You can like the bands playing Meltdown and be into Pop at the same time. What's sad is seeing Jarvis, who I always thought of as a Pop performer, increasingly behaving like a sad, bewildered ex-Rock Star dick. Thanks for ruining Pulp for me dude.

Comical to watch people flipping out over the 'pop is dead' statement in the same way I find myself doing over the recurring 'punk is dead' threads.

ha ha yes I hadn't thought of it that way!

The guy is just factually correct, and has done more for pop in seconds than all of you added together have done in your lifetimes.

haha actually this might be right, but not because j cocker has done much of any import for pop at all

I produced Orange Orange's debut single.

I read that as "Orange Juice's debut single" !

being old and irrelevant is not the same as behaving like a dick. let people be out of touch in their dotage.

Why would anyone prefer V Deep by the Boomtown Rats Jarvis Cocker's solo album to "Umbrella"?

And clearly people out of touch in their dotage should not be allowed if it undermines civilisation.

logans-run.jpg

'umbrella' aside no-one here has actually named a current pop song they like.

"Loop Duplicate My Heart," "Your Love Alone Is Not Enough," "Take Control."

Aside from Umbrella I like "Transylvania", "Sirens", "Take Control", JoJo's "Anything", Unklejam's "What Are We Fighting For" and Mutya Buena's Groove Armada collab (not in the charts yet tho) - some stuff from earlier in the year (Avril, Nelly) that's still hanging around but no, the current Top 40 isn't brilliant: lots of OK stuff, not much genius.

HOWEVER my point is simply that the reasons it's bad are nowhere near the reasons Jarvis is giving - reality TV? barely any impact on the charts any more. Lack of individual voices? Hellogoodbye, Gym Class Heroes, Calvin Harris, Reverend and the Makers - none of them generic manufactured pop types, all in the Top 20. If anything I'd argue that there are *more* acts with a Jarvis influence in the current charts than a Reality TV one.

'umbrella' aside no-one here has actually named a current pop song they like.

but you haven't named a current pop song you like for 3 years now.

But not actually any "Jarvis" in the current charts which I think is his real beef (xpost).

ok, these people are all on one thread, now let's blast them out the airlock!

jarvis cocker "pop is dead"

-- latebloomer, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 08:50 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

i like half of the jarvis album but umbrella is great. jay-zs verse is pointless though and ruins it. at least the jarvs album didnt have guest MCs.

songs which i like in the top 40:

mutya buena - real girl
beyoncé & shakira - beautiful liar
booty luv - shine
ne*yo - because of you
armand van helden - nyc beat
dizzee rascal - sirens
gwen stefani ft akon - the sweet escape
justin timberlake - what goes around...comes around

songs which i LOVE in the top 40:

rihanna-anna-anna-ay-ay-ay ft jay-z - umbrella
akon - don't matter (moved from like to LOVE due to calypso rmx!)
avril lavigne - girlfriend
mims - this is why i'm hot
nelly furtado - say it right
r kelly ft ti & t-pain - i'm a flirt
fergie ft ludacris - glamorous
amerie - take control

total around 16, half of which i wholeheartedly adore - that's a good number i think! it's probably been a rough constant since i started listening to the charts.

fwiw rihanna-anna-anna's WORST single AND her mediocre new album >>>>>>> all singles and albums j cocker has put his name to

the "jarvs" album didn't have any sales either (i've heard figures like 500 being bandied around).

Jarvis Cocker is completely right.

And, no, pop hasn't always been manufactured. There is a very important difference between writing your own material, deciding your own style and not giving a damn whether it will sell or not vs. letting other people write songs for you and decide your style manufactured to sell.

nah, don't believe that:

37 Jarvis Cocker Jarvis Album Nov 2006 Notes
36 Jarvis Cocker Don't Let Him Waste Your Time Single Jan 2007 Notes

By that reckoning, the forthcoming "ILX has a bucket" will be top 200 no problem

xpost Why do you come here, when you know it makes things hard for me ...

i love rihannas singles and various album tracks (really like coulda been the one right now) but she will never make a different class.

"There is a very important difference between writing your own material, deciding your own style and not giving a damn whether it will sell or not vs. letting other people write songs for you and decide your style manufactured to sell."

that second method has created some of the best songs ever known to mankind.

"There is a very important difference between writing your own material, deciding your own style and not giving a damn whether it will sell or not vs. letting other people write songs for you and decide your style manufactured to sell."

So acts like The All Seeing I, Nancy Sinatra, Marianne Faithfull, and The Lovers must be especially loathed by Cocker oh wait.

number 37 in Nov 2006 - I'd say 500 was a fair estimate, given that the average number of sales to get into the Top 20 is about 1800.
number 36 in Jan 2007 - 36 copies sold

The man's appeared on the same fucking album as Javine and Liberty X, remember.

i like mims, steve.

xpost, then again, jarvis will never make another diff class. its the only brilliant back to front pulp album they made IMO.

speaking of whom, 'best of my love' and 'just a little' respectively also >>>>>>>> entirety of cocker's output

xps nrq likes mims! hurrah!

There is a very important difference between writing your own material, deciding your own style and not giving a damn whether it will sell or not vs. writing material for other kinds of voices and making enough cash to boy a little place just off the pacific coast highway

admittedly a boy might not come cheap

That hasn't really worked for JC either, though...the Charlotte Gainsbourg record (much better than his own, largely because he's not "singing" on it) didn't exactly fly off the shelves.

Different Class was a bit of a mish-mash; half very good and half rubbish, and most of it we'd already heard on singles and B-sides already. His 'N' Hers is probably Pulp's most consistent album.

ur all projecting things that aren't there. jarvis doesn't say all pop is shit or that reality tv acts dominate the charts. here is my breakdown:

TV talent shows produce winners with "zero personality" who never have "good voices", according to ex-Pulp frontman Jarvis Cocker.

TRUE

In an interview in this week's Radio Times, the 43-year-old singer criticised shows such as X-Factor and Pop Idol, saying: "It saddens me because I love pop music and these shows prove that it's become an industrialised process. The kind of pop I was brought up on is over."

TRUE -- KKKKKK POP WAS ALWAYS AN "INDUSTRIALIZED PROCESS" BUT, WELL "NOW MORE THAN EVER", AS EVER; HIS "KIND OF POP" HAS GONE

"The pop charts used to be where everything happened," Jarvis went on. "Now the most interesting stuff is happening outside in the independent music sector."

ECH

Cocker, whose band Pulp were one of the defining groups of the early-90s Britpop era, also admits that were he to participate in a TV talent contest he'd be "straight out", but that "a great voice expresses something and gives you some idea of the personality behind the voice. There's zero personality in the voices of any of the people who sing on these shows."

TRUE

Elsewhere in the interview Cocker confesses he regrets the publicity surrounding his infamous Michael Jackson stage-invasion at the 1996 Brit awards and lays into the obsession with celebrity in this country, saying: "I would rather people remember me for what I create."

FAIR ENOUGH

Cocker is directing this year's Meltdown festival at Royal Festival Hall that runs throughout June. The singer, whose solo album Jarvis was a huge critical success when it was released last year, will be playing the festival alongside several hand-picked acts, including Motörhead and the Jesus and Mary Chain.

thats not quite true eiter, they weren't actually hand picked. he used a mechanical claw

independent music sector /= indie

provided by Rough Trade PR (xpost).

JC at the Brits 2007: "remember me?" from someone who doesn't want to be remembered for the MJ incident.

like the '60s pop process wasn't industrialised and mechanised by 10 billion to the power of xxxxxxxxxxxxx lolz simon napier bell memoirs to thread

JARVIS BLASTS INCREASING STREET CRIME
"I went into this mobile phone repair shop in Tottenham and this guy behind the counter demanded that I give him my mobile phone with my wife's pictures on it what's the world coming to they should be sterilised."

Cocker, whose band Pulp were one of the defining groups of the early-90s Britpop era, also admits that were he to participate in a TV talent contest he'd be "straight out", but that "a great voice expresses something and gives you some idea of the personality behind the voice. There's zero personality in the voices of any of the people who sing on these shows."

TRUE

Jarvis Cocker _did_ compete in a TV talent contest and he won, though. So FALSE.

So what we're "projecting" is the links between the statements right? Whereas actually none of Jarvis' comments relate to each other. Thanks for clearing that up!

He's right about the kind of voices Reality TV looks for (though actually if you look at RTV shows the things the judges are criticising singers for are fairly non-technical). I don't think those voices are always bad - Kelly Clarkson, Will Young, Leona Lewis all have really strong, expressive, voices, and they won their particular RTV shows. (They also all took an album to find material that suited them - jury still out in Leona's case).

But I do agree that the chances of a Jarvis type voice appearing on one of them is minimal.

The non-English language versions of X-Factor/American Idol et al though produce a much wider range of voices than yr "strong but neutral power balladeer" ones though. The Belgium one was one by some Eddie Vedder soundalike, for starters.

the trouble w/ cocker's argument is that he hasn't bothered to find out what's actually in the charts (as opposed to on his telly of a saturday evening). reality tv pop and pop idol contestants don't dominate the charts at all. the only ones who've actually carved successful long-term careers out of reality tv beginnings are precisely those who have buckets of personality - girls aloud, will young, kelly clarkson and uhhh...that's about it.

if anyone's personality-less in the charts it's the identikit shit brit indie bands, who are actually the only sort of act whose presence in the top 40 has markedly increased in recent years! and who are presumably cocker's 'type of pop'.

if anything there's TOO MUCH personality in the charts. mika, calvin harris, hellogoodbye...all of them have personalities, but repellent ones.

I don't think GA have buckets of vocal personality Lex, and I really like GA.

But I do agree that the chances of a Jarvis type voice appearing on one of them is minimal.

jarvis type voices are all over the charts though, SAD TO SAY.

xp - GA as a group have definite personality! i mean they're certainly not 'bland'.

i think jarvis' problem is that, because of compression, he cant tell the difference between any music

How much currency is left in this notion that British pop singers have by necessity to be moulded into the "strong but neutral power balladeer" template to appeal to "international audiences"? In particular, why has this misguided (?) thinking killed Mutya Buena's career stone dead before it's even started?

Whitney and Mariah are "dead" and the British music industry needs to come to terms with that.

"all i see is bare pop on the TV"

dizzee (who ironically just made his most pop album ever) clearly not in agreeance with jarvis.

like the '60s pop process wasn't industrialised and mechanised by 10 billion to the power of xxxxxxxxxxxxx lolz simon napier bell memoirs to thread

yeah but it was more of a crapshoot lolz andrew loog oldham memoirs to thread

if anyone's personality-less in the charts it's the identikit shit brit indie bands, who are actually the only sort of act whose presence in the top 40 has markedly increased in recent years! and who are presumably cocker's 'type of pop'.

well obviously they're shit. dunno if they are his thing though. as dom says look at his pre-shit solo lp collabs, they don't really fit yr profile.

jarvis never says that reality tv acts dominate the charts does he?

jarvis type voices are all over the charts though, SAD TO SAY.

srsly? i guess arctic monkeys are northern.

Perhaps Dizzee only has a basic Virgin Media package and thus only receives TMF and The Hits?

xp

Dom that is a really good point - maybe if Cowell was out of the process we'd get a broader range of voices coming through: I get the impression that his personal aesthetics (and/or commercial sense) shape our versions of the shows enormously.

xpost Mutya's voice isn't the issue - it still sounds like herself on "Real Girl" - but it's just a terrible song and a bad choice of material. She's back to her usual self on "Song 4 Mutya" I think.

xxpost I can hear echoes of Jarvis-ishness in Revd and the Makers too, and Calvin Harris plays off height and gawkiness in a similar way though it'd be a stretch to find much sonic similarity.

Channel U darlings N-Dubz female vocalist has a real case of the Mariahs but it's wisely wrapped up in hott urbanz beatz with male MC counterparts, and they are inching closer and closer to top 40 (but probably won't be able to sustain the momentum).

That was Dom's previous point about furrin Idol winners, not his point about Dizzee's home entertainment system.

xp

The Mutya album is essentially Whitney Wannabe.

Of course it can't be easy for Jarvis to keep up with current pop trends living on the edge in his luxury Paris penthouse.

I _think_ that over the coming series of X-Factor we're going to hear, if not "indie" per se vocallist, then guys copying Paolo Nutini or Mika affectations.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cocker wasn't, at least briefly, considered for the vacant judge spot on X-Factor.

it's between him and Jonathan King.

Might be tricky when they do the Rat Pack episode (xpost x 2).

i meant voices which are clearly "untrained" and make a virtue of this re: "jarvis type voices", rather than voices which do exactly what he did. i presume what he's attacking are "trained", technically competent voices which aren't v expressive - though, as much as these voices do exist, i get annoyed when anyone who displays a modicum of technical skill gets written off like this - eg kneejerk anti-mariah prejudice upthread! mariah has a tremendous voice when she's on form, and its expressive power is v much a result of her technical talent.

Are _any_ reality TV pop winners clasically trained vocallists?

I was going to say G4, but they didn't win.

Mariah is melismatic hell, singing 3000 notes when she only needed two. She's worse than Ritchie Blackmore. Wankery for its own sake.

she doesnt go into melisma overload on every song though, and her last album is one of the best R&B albums of the last few years, the past 20 years even.

although for some reason i cant really listen to it anymore - maybe cos even when shes trying to be subtle, she cant help showing off.

her last album is one of the best R&B albums of the last few years, the past 20 years even.

-- titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, June 6, 2007 11:08 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

although for some reason i cant really listen to it anymore - maybe cos even when shes trying to be subtle, she cant help showing off.

-- titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, June 6, 2007 11:10 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah that makes a whole lot of sense. if you mean the lp she released in 04/05, it was fucking dire!!!

i mean the emancipation of mimi album, which isnt dire at all.

The war in Iraq would have ended in 2004 if it hadn't been for The Emancipation Of Mimi.

yeah the emancipation of mimi is brilliant, mariah herself v controlled - she doesn't really oversing on ANY of the songs, and she fucking nails the emotional nuances of most of them. 'we belong together' is one of the greatest pop songs of this decade, and there's hardly any melisma on it.

As a wealthy tax exile in Paris I would say that Cocker has forfeited the right to comment about anything like this

i didn't know you'd moved to paris, marcello! </grammar pedant>

despite his increasing knobbery, i do still have a soft spot for jarvis. hell, i even quite like his solo album (esp "fat children"). but quite why he's bothering to plough this particularly tedious furrow is a mystery; and it's profoundly depressing that the guardian are bothering to "report" the, umm, radio times cover story.

i mean, really, who gives a fuck what jarvis cocker thinks about ye state of ye moderne chartes? (apart from us with our 100+ posts ... er ...)

many rock/pop stars out there would agree with Jarvis, esp. those who were at their height of popularity and critical adulation at the same time as he was.

her last album is one of the best R&B albums of the last few years, the past 20 years even.

-- titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, June 6, 2007 11:08 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

although for some reason i cant really listen to it anymore - maybe cos even when shes trying to be subtle, she cant help showing off.

-- titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, June 6, 2007 11:10 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

These seem to contradict a little. "It's amazing! Don't like listening to it, though."

maybe the album tracks were amazing but the singles were horrible.

I bet my friend (who LOVES him) $100 to call him "Jarv" without laughing or apologizing. She couldn't do it! Ha.

b-b-but everyone calls him that!

anyway, in summary: jarvis, you're moaning about something that doesn't really matter, and furthermore you're offering nothing by way of an alternative. please to spend more time with bob stanley.

or richard x. btw what happened to all seeing i?

They became I Monster.

Second question: btw what happened to i monster?

many rock/pop stars out there would agree with Jarvis, esp. those who were at their height of popularity and critical adulation at the same time as he was.

of course they would. bitterness, jealousy, egotism, being stuck in the past ... all this is nothing new in pop music, is it?

i guess i just expected a little better from jarvis; moaning about how the charts ain't what they used to be is lowest-common-denominator ageing-pop-star shtick.

xpost: they became i don'tcare.

My problem with the charts is that they're not yet as brilliant as they can be. (Because I'm not on them.)

you mean under them

moaning about how the charts ain't what they used to be is lowest-common-denominator ageing-pop-star shtick.

pretty much everyone on this thread has said the same at some point or another tho.

unless you believe everything just gets better and better and better it's not exactly an unusual thing to think.

"we belong together' is one of the greatest pop songs of this decade, and there's hardly any melisma on it."

it is, but the second verse with the quoting and namechecking of babyface and bobby womack ruins it a little for me.

""It's amazing! Don't like listening to it, though.""

well i do like it, and loved it for a long time when i got it, but i just dont seem to want to return to it very often. too much sugar or something. plus her vocals are a bit shot now compared to before. sounds like she does a lot of punching in.

pretty much everyone on this thread has said the same at some point or another tho

yes, but this is ILM! we're just mooks chattin' about music and shit.
nobody expects better from us. the guardian isn't going to quote us (well, unless it's an exceptionally slow day on the arts desk).

i do, however, fondly (and perhaps mistakenly) recall a time when jarvis used to come out with funny, witty comments about life and music and stuff. he's a "clever pop star (TM)"; it's his job. this is beneath him.

or not; i guess i'm just pissed off that jarvis is becoming a tool. hey ho.

unless you believe everything just gets better and better and better

that's an interesting point: musically, i actually do.

it is, but the second verse with the quoting and namechecking of babyface and bobby womack ruins it a little for me.

ha that's one of my favourite bits of it, it's just...so true to life! captures a lot about how people relate to/use pop songs, as well as being a particularly heart-tugging way for mariah to say "i am sad and lost without you and don't know what to do". plus there's that thing of, when you're feeling like that, every song in the world is suddenly ABOUT YOU.

i like the way it's in real time too. "wait a minute this is too deep, too deep - so i turn the dial, tryna catch a break..."

forget realism! if she had just quoted the lyric off hand from those two songs that would have been okay but its like she was trying to be 'clever' by quoting just who the artist is as well. kinda takes the song into 'slow jam role call' (or slow jamz a la kanye) instead of just sticking to the topic. i dont like that much 'self consciousness' in R&B. in hip hop its cool as rappers are always getting all meta but theres something i dont like about it when youre suddenly made conscious of it by mariah or r kelly or whoever. almost seems like a lazy short cut to express what she wanted to say rather than coming up with something herself. and she does it not once but TWICE in the same verse! dont wanna be made that self aware of me being the listener of her being the listener in a ballad - i demand earnestness!

but it IS earnest - it's referencing a song she loves deeply, which at this dark dark time for her suddenly means everything to her. and yeah there's that second-hand "i'm referencing this song as shorthand for my own emotions" thing but that rings true as well, the whole thrust of that verse is how she's on the edge, emotionally, and she's desperately trying to keep it together, so she's flicking through the radio and reeling off a list of songs to try to keep her emotions in check...

forget realism!
i demand earnestness!

which is it?

i mean, i get what the point is, i just dont like it. i suppose im just not into R&B artists trying to be all pop-culture referential in their ballads. if it was a song about flicking through the radio when youve had a bad breakup and every song makes you sadder that would be a better song ;) im sure theres been songs with that concept before though...

anyway, circles from the mimi album is better than we belong together. fact!

"which is it?"

theyre not the same

when will teenpop put down the guitars, is my prime concern right now to be honest.

-- lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:35 (5 months ago) Bookmark Link

or...the earnestness, at least.

-- lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:35 (5 months ago) Bookmark Link

earnestness goes somewhere cheap

not sure what youre saying. we belong together is neo-realist po-mo R&B or something?

Be realistic, demand the impossible.

oh i love guitar teenpop now. kelly clarkson's new single! and ashlee obv.

But there are men with guitars playing on them! They're out to kill you, you know.

xp - GA as a group have definite personality! i mean they're certainly not 'bland'.

-- lex pretend, Wednesday, June 6, 2007 10:51 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Link

So Mika=bad sort of personality, Girls Aloud=Good sort of personality?

Also, this seems like a long thread if it really is based on the opinions of someone who isn't relevant any more. I'd suggest people still care what Jarvis thinks.

I'm sure he's right that the sort of pop he grew up with isn't made any more. How many Picketywitch and Edison Lighthouse inspired bands are there out there? I suspect they might not be ILM favourites if they did exist.

don't think it really matters that it's Jarvis saying it. ppl just want to chatter about state of pop as per.

ppl just want to chatter about state of pop as per

exactly!

but am i wrong in expecting jarvis to have something interesting to say?

In actual 1970 Jarvis would have slagged off Pickettywitch and Edison Lighthouse, said that pop is all manufactured now not like Jethro Tull Principal Edwards Magic Theatre Edgar Broughton Band zzzz

Really, he could have made identical comments about Opportunity Knocks or New Faces. That side has always been there. Deal with it.

why has there only been one Leona Lewis single?

Tonsilitis + working on debut album due in september. Gary Barlow and Danny McFly keen to write for her.

(lucky girl)

Leona Lewis should get Fennesz and/or Leafcutter John to write/produce her album.

Would that be progress or novelty?

insanity

Commercial suicide

all of these things and more

Because it's all about money.

In actual 1970 Jarvis would have slagged off Pickettywitch and Edison Lighthouse, said that pop is all manufactured now not like Jethro Tull Principal Edwards Magic Theatre Edgar Broughton Band zzzz

-- Marcello Carlin, Thursday, June 7, 2007 11:53 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Link

I genuinely think he'd have loved them. He's never seemed ashamed to embrace the mawkish - for example quoting the words from "music was my first love.." at that award ceremony. He's celebrated this in the past, and I doubt he's turned into some sort of horrible rockist now. This is the guy that said Whigfield's Saturday Night was his favourite record of whatever year it came out in, and swiped from Laura Brannigan to make Disco 2000 (which I'll take over "Umbrella", nice though that is, any day, ta). To cast him as some sort of 00s Paul Weller is undeserved.

Who is Jarvis Cocker and why should I care what he thinks?

If Jarvis Cocker had said the same thing about Herman's Hermits or Edison Lighthouse, he would have been right.

But pop in the 60s and 70s wasn't only Herman's Hermits and Edison Lighthouse. It was also The Beatles, David Bowie and 10cc. Who are the Beatles', Bowie's and 10cc's of today's single charts?

The Cribs, Paolo Nutini, and Bellefire.

sol campbell & his riverboat gamblers?

So, Sol Cambell is a highly respected acts with lots of musical skills, writing his own song, having a lot of artistic control over his own output, and receiving a combination of great sales and critical acclaim at the same time? Like Beatles, Bowie and 10cc, I mean?

I mean, which of the acts in today's single lists fit with that description?

Coldplay and shit like that.

So, Sol Cambell is a highly respected acts with lots of musical skills, writing his own song, having a lot of artistic control over his own output, and receiving a combination of great sales and critical acclaim at the same time? Like Beatles, Bowie and 10cc, I mean?

-- Geir Hongro,

i think you've described him pretty well actually. though i think the other riverboat gamblers deserve credit too, its kind of a collaborative thing, right the way across the back four, i wouldn't say its a one man show by any means

i think its harsh to say he has just the one song though. they have 2 really, the upbeat one, and the slow one, but you can say that about most bands

Sol Campbell is first and foremost a great football player. Period.

working with producer harrington redknapp gaves his career a new lease of life id say.

Coldplay and shit like that.

Coldplay are an albums phenomenon more than a singles one. And while their albums tend to get good reviews (if the reviewer has a positive attitude towards that genre, which he usually does), they do get a lot of shit from other critics who are not at all into the genre.
So, no, Coldplay aren't the Beatles or Bowie of today. Even though they would have deserved to.

in addition to the riverboat gamblers, i would say the band Coldplay fit this bill. Haven't really seen anybody refute this so i think they're a good bet

Last night I had a little altercation
They wobbled menacingly
Beneath the yellow street light
It became a situation
Well, they wanted my brand-new phone
with all the pictures of the kids and the wife
A struggle ensued and then
Fat children took my life

^^^ lyric of the year, Jarvis Cocker, I kiss you.

What year? 1861?

That is a terrible song, made worse by the pro-eugenics rant in the next verse.

He's a rich bastard who lives in Paris and doesn't pay any taxes - what the fuck does he know about Tottenham, or did he just pick that at random out of Damien Hirst's chauffeur's London A-Z?

How unsurprising that when he actually did like pop music and wrote great songs he was still living in Sheffield. These days he probably gets his butler to tuck in him at ten p.m. sharp.

Yknow, you can live in Paris and make great pop songs...

http://members.iinet.net.au/~michaelbolger/mp3/Gainsbourg_presentgun.jpg

"Mr Cocker - you're no Serge Gainsbourg."

man like Carlin has boasted of his salary and put down others for not earning as much in the past - will he engage butler upon merging incomes? shock probe forthcoming on Cocker's blog.

"in the past"

well, quite.

my butler has a signed photo of bob lind. eat that jarvs.

I can barely imagine hating Jarvis Cocker.

Once upon a time, people could barely imagine hating Gary Glitter.

naah, people have always hated GG.

obligatory Hitler mention

Cocker is steering clear of Dumbo on the night, leaving the elephant-inspired tunes to singer Beth Orton. Instead he will perform one of Disney's best-loved sing-a-long numbers, I Wanna Be Like You from The Jungle Book.

the pro-eugenics rant in the next verse

overstatement of the day, i think :)

Carlin's in an over-statement contest with himself on this thread.

http://craigboldman.com/04%20-%20Fear%20of%20Success.gif

Cocker is steering clear of Dumbo on the night, leaving the elephant-inspired tunes to singer Beth Orton. Instead he will perform one of Disney's best-loved sing-a-long numbers, I Wanna Be Like You from The Jungle Book.

-- Mark G, Friday, June 8, 2007 4:05 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Link

Will he? What in.

I can imagine this will probably be quite good.

Oh, his Disney night at the Royal Festival Hall.

Google "Doherty" and "Disney" for more info.

Once upon a time, people could barely imagine hating Gary Glitter.

Other than the critics you mean? After all, they hated him in the 70s already.

cite your references, Geir.

overstatement of the day, i think :)

Oh rly?

"Oh, the parents are the problem
Giving birth to maggots without the sense to become flies"

Yeah, working class solidarity eh Jarvo? Pillock.

It's a joke ya fule.

...plus "working class solidarity" is bullshit.

It's a good job Jarvis didn't call for that in any of his songs oh wait.

Cocker made a career out of banging on about it.

xpost

Fair enough.

But who believed him?

When you see the full Radio Times interview, it's clear he was asked his opinion about a range of topics - and he also says re: TV talent shows:

"I can't say I'm annoyed about it. It's just changed. I'm old. For me to get annoyed would be like a pensioner being annoyed Glenn Miller is no longer in the charts. Things move on"

ilx's take on 'working class solidarity' is always a joy.

It's a joke ya fule.

yeah no shit, it's this surreal little story about how fat children are more than fat, they're actually DANGEROUS. Of course it's a joke. Do you also think the Irish should eat their children?

here is el jarv in today's 'independent on sunday': "Kids nowadays are better off financially, but worse off spiritually. I think if you have to rely on government intervention then that's a sad state of affairs. There are certain times when they have to intervene, but it's up to the parents, really. I blame the parents every time. I know what they're like -- I am one."

so home-schooling and rudimentary medical care all-round.

Also: "I think Britain on the whole is an integrated place - there's just pockets that have people who aren't tolerant". Good to see him pick that up from living in Paris.

south bank show on jarvis tonight.

This thread reminds me of the good old days when Marcello used to accuse John Peel of being an washed-up irrelevance whose comments about his wife were worthy of the Taliban, until the point when he suddenly died and became a hero again.

This documentary shows that JARVIS COCKER has NOT FORGOTTEN HIS ROOTS and has OPINIONS 4 U regarding STUFF.

That was actually a bit painful to watch.

An avuncular Melvyn Bragg smiles indulgently, but half-heartedly, as Jarvis tries to rely on charm to cover up his thin and inarticulate interview responses.

Gary Glitter was until his ill-advised trip to PC World pretty much loved and cherished, particularly by students.

Glenn Miller was in the charts in 1976, the year of punk.

it is unfortunate that jarvis is now thought of in the same way that glitter is, but really, he only has himself to blame in the end

Yeah, what a bastard. I even heard his computer files at home contained criticisms of Simon Cowell, and a 2007 Best-Of list that only contained 3 albums before being abandoned. Twat.

Gary Glitter was until his ill-advised trip to PC World pretty much loved and cherished, particularly by students.

by 'pretty much' you mean...?

When I was a student in the late 80s, Gary Glitter tribute acts were the most popular draw on the University circuit.

I had tickets (won as a prize) for what turned out to be GazGlit's final UK gig.

Didn't go.

When I was a student in the late 80s, Gary Glitter himself was a popular draw on the University circuit. I don't recall any tributes.