Smooth Jazz or Christian Rock

no seppuku, no credibility

Smooth jazz includes CTI recordings, which are awesome, so smooth jazz

Ya coming at this honestly I can say I'd have to go with Christian Rock cause I've heard a lot more awful smooth jazz than awful Christian Rock.

what about a hollow tip bullet to brain of the people who play christian rock and smooth jazz?

Winner is obviously christian gospel-jazz.

Well, that's just it. I think that in any case where you can honestly drop any of the scare quotes (ie: it really is smooth, or it really is jazz, or it really is Christian, or it really is rock) you have something that is probably pretty acceptable, if not necessarily the pinnacle of musical achievement. BUT! Most stuff proclaiming itself to be 'smooth''jazz' or 'christian' 'rock' fails on both descriptive counts.

Smooth jazz rocks!

Could you share some definitions or examples so I can determine if we are talking at cross-purposes or if you are in fact delusional?

He's the rock that doesn't roll!

I'm voting "Christian rock" because some of it is good and a lot of it is no worse than its worldly counterpart. Most smooth jazz is really awful (unless we mean all music played in the "smooth jazz" radio format, in which case "smooth jazz" would win because it includes: Stevie Wonder, Steely Dan, Anita Baker (maybe she really is smooth jazz), and others I am forgetting).

couldn't you say that like "kind of blue" is smooth jazz?

Smooth jazz. Rock that doesn't rock is a far worse crime than jazz which is, uh, smooth.

Not really.

I picked smooth jazz because some smooth jazz covers of r&b songs are really great, and also it would include first wave stuff like Grover Washington. And every now and then you'll be walking down a quiet hallway in the mall and hear a smooth jazz soloist who can really play and is obviously just slumming for $$.

xpost to Matt

I have to admit I forgot about Grover Washington, Jr. I like some of that stuff.

I've been forced to listen to both at different clients' offices and unquestionably smooth jazz is preferable to Christian rock. Smooth jazz at its worst is just sorta there, after a while you don't notice that it's playing. Christian rock is actively irritating and every once in a while one of those songs will get stuck in your head.

"Feels So Good" will make this poll a landslide.

("for what choice?" you ask)

Listening to the smooth jazz station isn't bad, actually. Makes me feel like I'm in a penthouse apartment, about to open a cask of 20 year old scotch and look at a collection of 18th century lithographs with my elegantly dressed ladyfriend.

There is some monumentally kick ass Christian rock, starting with "After Forever" by Black Sabbath, and its descendants like Sleep. So Christian rock wins.

I would take any of the above over that horrible pan-flute music that is always being buskered at tourist traps...

Ugh, the "contemporary" andean flute bands that play in the Subway are possibly my least favorite music ever.

Xtian rock gets you Kansas too, which is good for some fun. And Prince, which even if you ONLY allow his indisputably "rock" and/or "xtian" tracks, is a major and major enticement.

And Current 93!

haha there's an Andean Flute Group that plays the Riverwalk in San Antonio like eight days a week. Every tourist has gotta buy a CD cause they're so AUTHENTIC, maaaan.

xpost

Jammin with the Lamb, man!

I can't get enough of this magazine.

xpost Man, I want so badly to throat-punch that guy who plays* pan flute on the Lorimer platform.

*actually just playing orchestral pan flute CD through a speaker while occasionally adding a few desultory notes himself.

anyway I go with smooth jazz as preferable - its practitioners are actually invested in a MUSICAL aesthetic, and not some proselytizing agenda that has nothing to do with music.

x-post

CD 101.9's current top 5:
1 RICK BRAUN SAO PAULO
2 JEFF LORBER ANTHEM FOR A NEW AMERICA
3 PETER WHITE MR. MAGIC
4 EUGE GROOVE BORN 2 GROOVE
5 PAUL BROWN THE RHYTHM METHOD

I listened to samples of all of these on iTunes, and I found all to be better than almost any Christian rock I've ever heard.

(lol at "Euge Groove")

I already spent a few years of youth listening to Christian rock, and smooth jazz makes me want to put sharp things in my ears...so Jesus wins this one.

Wow, Jeff Lorber, making smooth jams for like thirty years. I wonder what his life is like.

How about Christian smooth jazz? My brother once gave me such a CD. I don't think he realized it was going to be smooth jazz though.

If smooth jazz encapsulates Go West, Sade, Donald Fagen, and George Duke, then I vote for smooth jazz.

Then again, I really like the latest Relient K single.

smooth jazz is generally really pleasant - only old man punx think there's anything wrong with stuff that makes good background music

go back to the retirement home aging punx! smooth jazz is great with a margarita, decent while you're working the crossword, great for housecleaning

I'd probably have to go with Christian rock here. I don't think Steely Dan or Fagen solo really qualify as smooth jazz, though there some obvious affinities. As far as true smooth jazz goes, I can't remember hearing any that really did much for me. Whereas I've heard at least a few Christian rock songs that I liked.

i listen to the smooth jazz station i the car all the time. so fucking smooth.

what does Pat Metheny count as? and are we employing an "if it's good, then it doesn't count as smooth jazz" criterion? 'cause that kinda criterion is bogus

Smooth jazz, at least in its most burbling, 'tasty-licks' form, makes me laugh out loud more than almost any other genre... maybe in that respect I'm actually a fan. Hmmm.

what does Pat Metheny count as?

Well, the only time I've heard Metheny he was playing with Derek Bailey and two drummers, and that definitely wasn't smooth jazz.

Larry "What About This Love" Heard pops up on smooth jazz stations from time to time, and you wouldn't hold that against him...

I hate the term "smooth jazz", but I LOVE the term "quiet storm"...

Metheny definitely has smooth jazz albums. His trio albums = no, but when I worked in a bookstore there was one called 'We Live Here' I think that was out-and-out smooth.

I am baffled that folks would prefer a "genre" of music whose only defining characteristic is the aggressive marketing of a loathsome ideology, as opposed to music that sounds relatively harmless and bland. wtf people.

I guess it comes down to priveleging form over content (ie "sounds good and I don't care what its about")

What about Christian jazz? Smooth rock? Jazz rock? Smooth Christian?

The Christian rock I referenced doesn't involve either "agressive marketing" or a "loathsome ideology". I didn't see that the thread is called "Fundamentalist Christian Rock", pal.

double xpost to the ignoramus post made about three posts up.

To be fair, praise songs suck furious ass.

What do you have against The Lord?

there must be some sweet christian bands though, aren't there? i mean there's tons, i always figured there would be these sweet bands i never heard of...

i liked danieleson famile, but i could never figure out how serious they were about it or if it was a weird joke.

The early super-Catholic stuff U2 did was pretty sweet. I also liked "Flood" by Jars of Clay.

Larry Norman is cool. There must be other ones.

haha Danielson's are not "christian rock", neither are U2. Christian Rock is a self-proscribed ghetto delineated by how carefully a band hews to a very specific dogma. Neither Danielson nor U2 ever did this... unless we're gonna include any rock music that references jesus/religion as christian rock (which sorta renders the term meaningless, the themes are so prevalent). Perhaps I am operating from a different genre definition than others are... too much reading HM Magazine I guess

I mean c'mon Sabbath are not "christian rock", neither is Sleep (and I love both bands! And they're jesus-themed songs!)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/InAnotherLand.jpg

they're their

Don't you like gospel music, Shakey?

I do indeed! But songs about jesus /= Christian Rock.

"I mean c'mon Sabbath are not "christian rock", neither is Sleep (and I love both bands! And they're jesus-themed songs!)"

If they're Jesus themed, how is it not Christian rock? If there is some genre definition I'm unaware of, then feel free to enlighten me. I'm confused by the definition of "indie" used here too, so it may just be my ignorance.

don't make me post the wikipedia "Christian Rock" entry

x-post

Go look up the definition of Christian. That's just silly. You could have a book entirely about Jesus (i.e., "Jesus themed"), but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a Christian book. (It could be a book by a non-Christian arguing that the historical Jesus was not what Christianity claims he was, for instance.)

"After Forever" is a slam-dunk, unironic, pro-Jesus tune, according to both a plain reading of its lyrics, and interviews with its writer, Geezer Butler. Therefore its Christian rock. Plus it kicks about as much ass as any song ever put to tape.

I shouldn't have to add this qualifier, but I will-I'm not religious at all.

I think the Christian rock here in question is typical "CCM." From Michael W. Smith to Amy Grant to Petra (as you can see, I obviously haven't followed its progression over the last 20 years), none of whom are sickeningly preachy and all of whom have at least one album's worth of good songs.

Christian Rock as its own genre didn't really exist until sometime in the early/mid-70s and didn't really take off til the 80s. Obviously there are lots of songs about Jesus that predate those eras and belong within the framework of other existing genres.

Christian Rock sucks for the same reason anything that places ideology first sucks - their first mission isn't making good rock, it's spreading the gospel

that right there is a recipe for some shitty rock

xpost Christian Rock is a specific genre Mr. Magill, mainly consisting of CCM. It is chiefly characterized by an evangelical Christianity, and by being horrible.

people from my sunday school were always trying to talk me into liking Petra. I never actually got around to listening to it.

Yes CCM-style is what I'm talkin about. (quality of said music is debatable)

but yeah Master of Reality on the whole is an explictly Christian album, I am actually writing every single day about exactly that aspect of it!

J0hn D OTM thank you

Likewise, there is a higher, ideology-based Smoothness to which the true Smooth Jazz act must swear fealty. Just because it's smooth and it's jazz doesn't make it Smooth Jazz.

Yeah, rockist, but the song, and a lot of the Sleep catalog, is not about Jesus the historical figure, but Jesus the spiritual/religous one. I think arguments about semantics and categories like this are silly, yet I'm drawn into it.

xpost

If there's a "genre" that I am unaware of, and that's what this poll is about, then I will move on.

M@tt, slsk dearch for "Rose Colored Stained Glass Windows." Great calling-out-the-pious-radical-right-Christians kind of song, about 25 years ahead of its real need.

I don't know what CCM is.

JohnD, what kind of writing are you doing that you mentioned above? I'd be interested in seeing/reading/ hearing it.

CCM = Contemporary Christian Music

It's basically their MOR radio format.

the devil made me do it

I think some people are being cunty for the sake of being cunty.

I'm writing a 33 & 1/3 book on Master of Reality

also I think some people are saying cunty just for the sake of saying cunty & who can blame them

holy shit J0hn that is great news!!!

I think some people are being cunty for the sake of being cunty.

-- HI DERE, Wednesday, June 6, 2007 8:59 PM (1 minute ago)

isn't that usually your department?

I love that album so much it almost makes me believe in a God. I can't wait to read it, John.

Do bands like Candlemass, Trouble, and Maylene and the Sons of Disaster count as Christian rock? How about the new Type O Negative record? Because those are pretty awesome.

The early years of CCM, popular artists always had a secular doppelganger. Petra = Kansas, 2nd Chapter of Acts = (a really lame) ABBA, etc.

yup, the "if you like those heathens, listen to THIS instead!" phenomenon

I admit to being "cunty" for calling another poster an ignoramus, when it was in fact me who was ignorant of whatever this CCM shit is. I apologize to the target of my ignorance (I forget who it was, either Rockist or SMC).

I forgot about Trouble. And they were proseletyzing too.

cuntycuntycunty

also I think some people are saying cunty just for the sake of saying cunty & who can blame them

ok that was supercunty with a side of bitchcakes

(Actually, the Christian proselytizing parts of the new Type O Negative are the worst parts, including the song about how if you have an abortion you go straight to hell, so nevermind.)

Scattered, smothered, covered.

(the bitchcakes, that is)

hmm...okay i believe you guys that this shit sucks, but couldn't there be like an AWESOME christian band that was all hardcore, like lyrics about how much god hates sinners and yr all going to hell fuck you you heathens rot in hell, etc etc, but the music is super awesome and rocking...i could just see the offensive super batshit bible bangers stuff being an asset (or it could be an asset)...like how some superviolent lyrics in metal or rap is sort of thrilling in a way...but you'd have to be super old testament, fire and brimstone...

I aspire to maintain high levels of cuntiness in my daily life

can a mod plz retitle this thread Smooth Jazz or Christian Rock or Cunt

M@tt the sentiments you desire to see expressed are pretty much not allowed in CCM-type stuff. So, no.

(altho I totally agree that said hypothetical album could be great)

now that I think about it that album is actually Master of Reality

One of the worst summer gigs I ever had involved singing praise songs at a Presbyterian church. I wanted to dig my ears out with a spoon every Sunday.

cunt jazz or cunt rock

Oh shit dudez! I just remembered Barren Cross...they had the Iron Maiden sound perfected, but I'm sure the lyrics were just as corny in a biblical way as Maiden's are in a fantasy realm kind of way.

Also, Whitecross sounded just like Ratt.

WIKI Barren Cross: "In 1989 the band appeared on The Morton Downey Show alongside members of KISS and Anthrax.[1]"

Plz God, might I ask you to miracle this on to Youtube?

One of the worst summer gigs I ever had involved singing praise songs at a Presbyterian church. I wanted to dig my ears out with a spoon every Sunday.

conversely one of the best gigs I ever had was when I popped into a C.O.G.I.C. in Pomona one Sunday and they asked me to play the organ

haha I've been by there

smooth jazz, definitely. sounds great in the back of a cab racing down broadway in the middle of the night

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

shakey mo there are lots and lots of cogics in Pomona

there was one near my temple, that's what I was thinkin of

on Holt? that's the one I'm talking about, Holy Ghost Temple

Not that it matters too much, but my question is more or less about radio formats, not so much musical genres.

I think we all know that Master of Reality is never, ever going to get played on a Christian Rock station (KNLE - The CANDLE!) any more than Charlie Haden's Liberation Music Orchestra is going to be played on a Smooth Jazz station. As I said waaaaaay upthread, the scare quotes in the poll are critical.

Not that it matters too much, but my question is more or less about radio formats, not so much musical genres.

If I had known that, I definitely would have gone with "smooth jazz," since I've actually heard some pretty decent music (as mentioned above) on smooth jazz stations. (Not that it matters much.)

hmm...okay i believe you guys that this shit sucks, but couldn't there be like an AWESOME christian band that was all hardcore, like lyrics about how much god hates sinners and yr all going to hell fuck you you heathens rot in hell, etc etc, but the music is super awesome and rocking...i could just see the offensive super batshit bible bangers stuff being an asset (or it could be an asset)...like how some superviolent lyrics in metal or rap is sort of thrilling in a way...but you'd have to be super old testament, fire and brimstone...

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Wednesday, 6 June 2007 21:12 (3 hours ago)

Horde is an "unblack metal" band (ie Christian black metal) whose album "Hellig Usvart" is pretty fucking wicked. Viz decidedly UNblack song titles:

"Blasphemous Abomination of the Satanic Pentagram"
"Behold, the Rising of the Scarlet Moon"
"Drink From the Chalice of Blood"
"Silence the Blasphemous Chanting"
"Invert the Inverted Cross"
"An Abandoned Grave Bathes Softly in the Falling Moonlight"
"Weak, Feeble, and Dying Anti-Christ"
"The Day of Total Armageddon Holocaust"
"My Heart Doth Beseech Thee (O Master)"

Mortification's "Scrolls of the Megilloth" is pretty straight ahead Christian thrash, viz album cover:

http://www.myonlineimages.com/InstantUploads/702231834699__mortification.jpg

Living Sacrifice's album "Nonexistent" is also pretty fuckin dark xtian death. Lyrics to "Haven of Blasphemy":

Hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared
Deny consideration of the One to be feared
Abandoning the faith to follow spirits of deception
Their unsound teaching produce sowers of confusion
Prophets of dceit the word of God
Sowing wickedness reaping trouble from the rod
Though they claim to be the ones to obtain salvation
Their form of doctrine denies Christ's foundation
Haven of blasphemy
Hollow philosophies
Captives remain unfree
Slaves of depravity, whose destruction draws near
Secretly introduce the lies some long to hear
Hanging over them are the scales of condemnation
A false balance of weighted abomination
Haven of blasphemy

on Holt? that's the one I'm talking about, Holy Ghost Temple

yeh I think so, my temple was (is?) on Towne

I'll be damned

well, I grew up in Upland. Franklin Bruno had awards named after him at my high school. Viva Shrimper etc

Christian Rock...

http://www.woebot.com/images/kraut/vuh.jpg

... to name but one of their albums

I thought Florian Fricke was more of a pantheist.

Look at the song titles!

Yes I know, but he also did stuff ripped out of Hindu traditions, etc. I thought he was one of those "all religions are equally true" types.

Well, yes, he was but the Christian elements are pretty overwhelming

this thread is hopeless

I love how no one bothered to vote after the first dozen or so posts.

I mean please to read thread re: what kind of genre definitions we're talking about, per the thread starter ("Not that it matters too much, but my question is more or less about radio formats, not so much musical genres")

x-post

Kind of a dud thread, when you consider that Steely Dan get the "Smooth Jazz" label slapped on 'em (even though it doesn't really stick), and that bands like Copeland & Anberlin are both pretty damned rockin'. At least I think so, and I'm about as lapsed as a Catholic boy can get.

I wasn't disputing whether PV made any Christian Rock as defined by this thread (they didn't.) I was wondering whether Tom D knew something I didn't about Florian Fricke.

smooth jazz easy

ctrl+f "jordan"

otm

"this thread is hopeless"
OTfuckingM.
Sabbath-Not "Christian Rock"
Ditto Popul Vuh.
Ended up wathcing the Dove Awards on TV the other night. CCM based. Total fucking garbage obv. No contest here. We're not talking Mahalia Jackson vs. Miles.

maybe we should have a separate thread: Songs About Jesus vs. Songs About Being Quietly Seduced by Yanni

Thanks for your input, bear, you've totally convinced me.

There's nothing wrong with Mahalia Jackson.

I think that's his point, that some people are acting like the definition Christian rock can be expanded to any music that's inspired by Christianity (including Mahalia Jackson, U2, Danielson Famile), when that's not what this poll is supposed to be about.

I think that's his point

Oh you mean like the part where he said (my emphasis): "We're not talking Mahalia Jackson vs. Miles." Whoops, I think I'm too tired to be skimming and replying to things. Sorry.

Is George Frideric Handel rock?

He's closer to rock than Beethoven and Mozart.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

can't fuck wit the smoothness

Album reviews of smooth jazz on eMusic are kind of the greatest thing ever

I love a lot of xian rock now tho too I can't lie

Is Xian rock something you are likely to be exposed to without seeking it out in the US? because - maybe U2 apart, and the Osmonds - I don't think I've ever heard any.

No, you have to seek it out. At least where I live.

I think production on smooth jazz has gone a lot more too my liking. The stuff I hated most was always that super-icy sounding early digitial stuff with uber-compressed and gated drums, nasaly soprano sax, slap bass, and chorused-out funk guitar. Sort of like shittier versions of late Miles.

christians love coldplay in my experience