http://music.guardian.co.uk/rock/story/0,,2102991,00.html
Sgt Pepper must die!
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? It's meant to be a classic album, but all you can hear is a load of boring tripe ... we've all felt that way. And so have the musicians we asked to nominate the supposedly great records they'd gladly never hear again
Interviews by Paul Lester Friday June 15, 2007 The Guardian
Tupac Shakur All Eyez On Me Nominated by Mark Ronson, producer
This was Tupac's biggest record, and is seen by rap fans as the greatest latterday hip-hop album. But I've never got the cult of Tupac. Sure, he was in a lot of pain but he never said anything particularly clever - Notorious B.I.G. was far superior. People really related to the emotion in his voice, but it didn't resonate with me. No one would doubt Tupac's "realness" - he was shot nine times, for God's sake, and he began recording this album hours after being released from prison - but it doesn't compare to Biggie. Dr Dre produced it, and I didn't rate his production, either.
Problem was, Tupac was so prolific. He would write 50 songs in a weekend. Maybe he knew he was going to die, so he recorded relentlessly. I bought it at the time because it had one song on it that I'd play in clubs, but one out of 20 isn't great. In fact, there are 27 tracks on it - it started the trend of putting loads of songs on rap albums. Tupac wasn't up there with Dylan - Dylan was a brilliant poet. Eminem is probably the Dylan of rap, whereas Tupac just sounded like he was whining.
Nirvana, Nevermind Nominated by Wayne Coyne of the Flaming Lips
It's better to be overrated than underrated. Besides, it's not the musicians' fault Nevermind is overrated - it's the public's, or the critics'. But you don't find yourself ever longing to listen to it, because there were - still are, in fact - so many mediocre bands that sound like it, that you're constantly experiencing it. I never get out Nevermind and think: what great production, what great songs. Nevermind had a poisonous, pernicious influence. It legitimised suffering. The sainthood of Kurt Cobain overshadows the album: Kurt's lyrics, his attitudinising and navel-gazing, were hard to separate from the band's image. You can never just hear the record. For me, Bleach and In Utero are superior. Even the album cover seems cheap: that stupid dollar bill just seems to have been airbrushed in there. If Alice in Chains had done it, we'd have thought it was a joke, but because it was Nirvana we thought it was oh-so-clever. If you think you're going to hear an utterly original, powerful and freaky record when you put on Nevermind, as a young kid might, Christ you're going to be disappointed. You're going to think, "Who is this band that sounds just like Nickelback? What are these drug addicts going on about?"
The Beach Boys, Pet Sounds Nominated by Luke Pritchard of the Kooks
Of all the albums that get written about as "classics", this one least deserves it. Having said that, it contains one of the greatest songs ever written: God Only Knows, which is melancholic yet uplifting, pure yet fucked-up. But the rest of the record is a total let-down - I felt that way from the very first listen. Pet Sounds is a million miles away from Sgt Pepper or Dark Side of the Moon. I do appreciate the lyrics, and I know it's an album about getting older, but as a concept album, it doesn't quite add up. Good tunes, yes - Wouldn't It Be Nice is a great pop song - but most of the other tracks just don't resonate for me. I apologise unreservedly to everyone who loves every word and note, every last crackle, on this album, but that's how it is. Oh, and it's got the worst sleeve of any major album, ever. Feeding time at the zoo? I don't think so.
The Stone Roses, The Stone Roses Nominated by Eddie Argos of Art Brut
They're totally overrated. Plus they covered Scarborough Fair. I don't understand why people still play their music in nightclubs - it makes me really angry. When I'm drunk in a club I usually end up arguing with the DJ who's playing them. The Stone Roses were an awful, awful band. They were uncharismatic, their lyrics are nonsensical and their music is dreary. Also, we have them to thank for Oasis, although at least Noel Gallagher is funny and Liam is a bit of a pop star. The Roses make me think of kids older than me swaggering around with bowl haircuts and affecting Manchester accents. It makes my skin crawl. And all their fans are so smug: "Oh, you don't understand it." I do understand it! It's ridiculous that it regularly gets voted in at the top of those "greatest British album ever" polls. They spawned a new thug-boy pop culture.
The Strokes, Is This It Nominated by Ian Williams of Battles
The Strokes were just rich kids from uptown New York; the children of the heads of supermodel agencies who formed a rock band and thought they deserved respect because of that. Suddenly the downtown, older form of punk rock got co-opted by the system. If ever there was a point where Gucci and rebellion were married together, it was right there. The Strokes have, basically, been responsible for five or six years of a new form of hair metal, in the guise of something more tasteful. Their music is post-9/11 party music because it came out that week and everybody wanted to dance. They're seen as the rebirth of rock in the UK - but it's a very conservative, old-fashioned idea of rock for the 21st century. As for their punk credentials, I'm not going to say anyone's more authentic than anyone else ... But the Strokes are the new Duran Duran; the new decadence for the new millennium.
Television, Marquee Moon Nominated by Alex Kapranos of Franz Ferdinand
People expect us to love Television the way they think we love Gang of Four and were influenced by them - but we don't and we weren't! Marquee Moon is one of those records that I thought I loved, but it was only after a few years I realised I didn't love the album, just the first 10 bars of the title track, which are pretty astonishing. Those guitars that play off each other and the way the instruments go into wonderful places and the guitars are totally insane and that big cascade of drums - it's incredible. Then your attention wanders. You know when a boring guy is explaining to you the technical spec of a car, the fuel injection system and the leather seats, and his voice becomes so much background noise? Once I took the needle off this record, I realised I hadn't heard it at all. But what annoys me is the way people pontificate over the album; it's one of those staples of student halls of residence. People wax lyrical about it, but the reason it's so popular is because it's a prog rock album its okay to like. Because the words "punk" and "New York" and "1977" are associated with it, it's deemed cool. Really, though, they're a band who give guys who like 20-minute guitar solos an excuse. They were the Grateful Dead of punk, and I always hated all that jam-band stuff. They have the ethos of a jam-band but the aesthetic of a New York outfit. If anything, the Strokes took the look of Television, the aesthetic - and the Converse sneakers - and ignored the jam-band aspect. They took those first 10 bars of Marquee Moon and did something great with it! Tom Verlaine's lyrics didn't have much impact on me. I'm always uneasy when singers in bands profess to be poets - they can veer into pomposity and pretentiousness. But I've got to be careful: I once said something about Jim Morrison and the Doors, about their pseudo-poetry, and immediately all these articles on the internet appeared saying, "Kapranos slams Morrison!" I'm not slamming Television - I respect them. But Marquee Moon is an album I admire more than enjoy.
The Beatles, Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band Nominated by Billy Childish, prime mover of British garage rock
I was a big Beatles fan - I had a Beatles wig and Beatles guitar when I was four - so I know what I'm talking about, but Sgt Pepper signalled the death of rock'n'roll. Rock'n'roll is meant to be full of vitality and energy, and this album isn't. It sounds like it took six months to shit out. The Beatles were the victims of their success. This is middle-of-the-road rock music for plumbers. Or people who drive round in Citroens - the sort of corporate hippies who ruined rock music. I bought it the day it came out: it was ideal for a seven-year-old. These days, well, it's my contention that it represents the death of the Beatles as a rock'n'roll band and the birth of them as music hall, which is hardly a victory. The main problem with Sgt Pepper is Sir Paul's maudlin obsession with his own self-importance and Dickensian misery. (Paul McCartney is the dark one in the Beatles, not John Lennon, because he writes such depressing, scary music.) It's like a Sunday before school that goes on forever. It's too dark and twisted for anyone with any light in their life. Then again, when he tries to be upbeat, it rings false - like having a clown in the room. The best thing about the album was the cardboard insert with some medals, a badge and a moustache. But the military jackets they wore on the front made them look like a bunch of grammar-school boys dressed by their mummy. When I was in Thee Mighty Caesars we did a rip-off of the sleeve for an album called John Lennon's Corpse Revisited, featuring the Beatles' heads on stakes. This isn't the greatest album ever made; in fact, it's the worst Beatles album up to that point. Live at the Star Club trounces it with ease.
Abba, Arrival Nominated by Siobhan Donaghy, former Sugababe turned solo artist
I love the Beatles, the Beach Boys, Burt Bacharach, all those great pop melody-writers, but there's something about Abba that I hate. Maybe it's going to parties with shit DJs for most of my childhood that has made me hate them. Abba were forced on people from my generation, so there's a natural resentment towards them. Through my mum I discovered Pink Floyd and Jimi Hendrix, and if I'd done that with Abba maybe I'd have appreciated their brilliant pop songs. On Arrival, the particularly annoying songs are Dancing Queen, Knowing, Me Knowing You and Money, Money, Money. And if we're talking about the reissue, you can add Fernando. Nick Hornby may well say they're part of the canon now, but I still don't have to listen to them. Yes, they wrote some of the catchiest melodies of all time. But then, The Birdie Song is catchy, too.
Arcade Fire The Neon Bible Nominated by Green Gartside of Scritti Politti
People who enjoy this album may think I'm cloth-eared and unperceptive, and I accept it's the result of my personal shortcomings, but what I hear in Arcade Fire is an agglomeration of mannerisms, cliches and devices. I find it solidly unattractive, texturally nasty, a bit harmonically and melodically dull, bombastic and melodramatic, and the rhythms are pedestrian. It's monotonous in its textures and in the old-fashioned, nasty, clunky 80s rhythms and eighth-note basslines. It isn't, as people are suggesting, richly rewarding and inventive. The melodies stick too closely to the chord changes. Win Butler's voice uses certain stylistic devices - it goes wobbly and shouty, then whispery - and I guess people like wobbly and shouty going to whispery, they think it signifies real feeling. It's some people's idea of unmediated emotion. I can imagine Jeremy Clarkson liking it; it's for people in cars. It's rather flat and unlovely. The album and the response to it represent a bunch of beliefs about expression and truth that I don't share. The battle against unreconstructed rock music continues.
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon Nominated by Tjinder Singh of Cornershop
This album is a sort of lab experiment, put together by scarf-wearing university types. There's a certain irony in a song like Money that takes pot-shots at greedy corporations, when this album made so much money. There's also irony in these super-wealthy elite prog musicians positing themselves against The Man, having a go at the machine. The light shows, all the technology and white-coated technicians at their disposal, make them very much part of the machine. I appreciated the early stuff Pink Floyd did with Joe Boyd, but this is a bloated concept album that made punk necessary. It says, "What a crazy world it is!" and "Everyone's demented!" It's meant to be imbued with the spirit of Syd Barrett, God rest his soul. I'm amazed that it's up there in the pantheon, because I can't see any virtue in it whatsoever. Lyrically, it's banal and doesn't say anything beyond "greed is bad". Radiohead are the 21st-century Floyd, which says it all really.
The Doors LA Woman Nominated by Craig Finn of the Hold Steady
In America when you're growing up, you're subjected to the Doors as soon as you start going to parties and smoking weed. People think of Jim Morrison as a brilliant rock'n'roll poet, but to me it's unlistenable. The music meanders, and Morrison was more like a drunk asshole than an intelligent poet. The worst of the worst is the last song, Riders on the Storm: "There's a killer on the road/ His brain is squirming like a toad" - that's surely the worst line in rock'n'roll history. He gave the green light to generations of pseuds. A lot of people told him he was a genius, so he started to believe it. The Velvets did nihilism and darkness so much better - they were so much more understated; what they did had subtlety, whereas the Doors had little or none: they were a caricature of "the dark side". I actually like Los Angeles, but the Doors represent the city at its most fat, bloated and excessive. Morrison's death does give rock some mythic kudos, but that doesn't make me want to listen to the music. In fact, if it comes on the radio, I change the station.
The Smiths Meat Is Murder Nominated by Jackie McKeown of 1990s
I'm a Smiths fan and I like most of their records, but this is the weakest link in the canon. With the debut and The Queen Is Dead, you could cut up Morrissey's lyrics and they could be pages from the same book. For Meat Is Murder, he seemed to make a list of topics to write about. It was a protest album, which defeats the idea of Morrissey as romantic. The cool-guy cover with Meat Is Murder written on his helmet rams it down your throat. The title track is offensive, not least because of the loud, gated drums and 80s production that you get on Huey Lewis and the News records. Morrissey was obviously suffering from a loss of nerve or lack of faith when he wrote these songs. It took him years to write the first album in his bedroom. By the second album, he started panicking and pointing fingers at teachers at school and thinking up things like, "Oh, meat is murder and, oh, we're going to get attacked by thugs in Rusholme." Barbarism Begins at Home is where the Smiths betray their jazz-funk session-guy roots; it's absolutely treacherous to listen to, even if it was brilliant fun to record. You can just see the rolled-up jacket sleeves. It's everything Morrissey hated. Meat Is Murder is Red Wedge music for sexless students. It's like being stuck in a lift with a Manchester University Socialist Workers' Party convention.
Captain Beefheart and the Magic Band Trout Mask Replica Nominated by Peter Hook, ex-New Order and Joy Division
Steve Morris, New Order's drummer, was a great fan of his, but Beefheart was one of those things I found unlistenably boring. I desperately wanted to like it because Steve loved it so much, but I had to admit defeat. Ian Curtis found it easier to convert us to the Doors, put it that way. Trout Mask wasn't a work of untutored genius, it was untutored crap. When you're beginning as a musician, people try to educate you with music like this, but I never understood the allure of Captain Beefheart. I certainly didn't last all four sides. There are very few records I gave up on, apart from Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music and Trout Mask Replica. It sounded like somebody taking the piss. But then, I've never been a great fan of jazz, and this erred on the selfish side of jazz. It sounds like you feel when you've taken the wrong drugs, like going to your mate's dope party on speed. I'd listen to it with my head in my hands. Trout Mask was highly regarded by post-punk bands because of its idiosyncratic approach to rhythm and song construction - but those bands were full of shit, weren't they? I wouldn't have put it at the front of my record pile to impress people; it would have been at the back with my Alvin Stardust and Bay City Rollers records that they sent me from the record club I belonged to at the time. These days, I would rather listen to the Bay City Rollers than Beefheart.
What kind of heathen dislikes the Velvet Underground and Nico? Novelist and music lover Ian Rankin gives his reasons
This is a sacred cow but that doesn't mean it can't be turned into hamburger. You can start before you even listen to the music. The front of the album bears the name Andy Warhol and a yellow banana - there's no mention of the band whatsoever. The back of the album says it was produced by Andy Warhol alongside the Velvets, so straight away I'm annoyed. It's one of the worst-produced albums of all time - put it on a modern hi-fi and you'll think: this sounds like shit. It's muddy, the volume comes and goes, the guitars are all out of tune, as is the viola. John Cale is one of the great Welshmen, but the viola on Venus In Furs sounds like a Tom and Jerry sound effect. And Nico's voice is flat throughout - she sings English the way I sing German. Talk about looks being everything: she was a supermodel trying to sing in a rock band, but she couldn't sing - she gave good dirge.
It all flags up that the Velvet Underground were just part of Warhol's circus, his Factory; just another product. Once you start thinking about the Velvets being part of that, the notion of them waiting around for the man is ludicrous. As far as introducing the idea of nihilism to rock, the first Doors album, which came out the same year, was far better produced, far darker, and more nihilistic. Ditto the first Mothers of Invention album. Those two were from the west coast; the Velvets were from New York. And this was New York trying too hard. There's a line in Venus in Furs about "ermine furs adorn imperious". Those are four words that should never appear in a rock song and here they are put together. And the last two tracks are completely unlistenable: The Black Angel's Death Song and European Son, which constitute 11 minutes and one fifth of the album.
Nevertheless, as Brian Eno said, almost no one bought this album but the ones who did put a band together, so it was important - as the beginning of the black raincoat brigade.
― latebloomer, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)
Haha! Fun!
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)
No Loveless? Fuck that, I want some bile on the subject.
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)
Oh, and Green Gartside is my new hero kthxbye.
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:14 (eighteen years ago)
i think that instead of having them doing the standard "knocking down sacred cows "thing they should've had each of the participants slag off EACH OTHER'S albums
― latebloomer, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)
ian rankin is a brainless prick.
― Frogman Henry, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)
Green Gartside is the only one who really makes a reasonable, well-thought out defense of his opinion and doesn't just go "WAH, EVERYONE LIKES THIS BUT I SEE THROUGH THE BULLSHIT!"
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:20 (eighteen years ago)
Not to mention that most of the choices are sacred cows of sacred-cow-tipping.
This was Tupac's biggest record, and is seen by rap fans as the greatest latterday hip-hop album.
Um, does anyone really think this is the greatest latterday hip-hop album?
they should've had each of the participants slag off EACH OTHER'S albums
Dead on!
Green Gartside = some kind of genius
― Kevin John Bozelka, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:21 (eighteen years ago)
it'd be nice to get someone to tell Coyne what an insufferably saccharine, overproduced, overrated piece of garbage The Soft Bulletin is.
― latebloomer, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:22 (eighteen years ago)
On what planet are The Strokes sacred cows?
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:23 (eighteen years ago)
I was about to say, "No surprise that Green's the most articulate." He's totally wrong, but still.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)
OTMFM
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:25 (eighteen years ago)
I really used to like the Flaming Lips, too until every album after that one became some kind of Nickelodeon-ized, Whimsical(TM) syrup-fest. blecch.
― latebloomer, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:27 (eighteen years ago)
I'm disappointed by what a dumbass Ian Williams sounds like.
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:27 (eighteen years ago)
lol white people
fuck mark ronson
― That one guy that quit, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:30 (eighteen years ago)
so much wrong, so little time
― That one guy that quit, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:32 (eighteen years ago)
is he taking the piss there?
― latebloomer, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)
-- Hurting 2, Sunday, June 17, 2007 5:27 PM
srsly, dude comes off like my old roommate going on about why Green Day aren't *really* punk rock.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)
HAY THEESE FREE JAZZ GUYZ CAN'T PLAY THEY'RE INSTROMENTS
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)
The battle against unreconstructed rock music continues.
really heartening to see him still fighting the same battles in his head as nearly 30 years ago. never mind that rock has a much lower profile than it had then, a few well-selling bands like the AF aside.
― John Splith, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:35 (eighteen years ago)
WAHT IS THIS CUBISM CRAP MY THREE YEAR OLD COULD DO THIS
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)
I'm kind of with Art Brut guy on the Stone Roses.
― chap, Sunday, 17 June 2007 17:51 (eighteen years ago)
So am I. But I'll toss in the Happy Mondays too.
― filthy dylan, Sunday, 17 June 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)
Mr. Flaming Lips is the most off.
If you think you're going to hear an utterly original, powerful and freaky record when you put on Nevermind, as a young kid might, Christ you're going to be disappointed.
OK, I like Siamese Dream better than Nevermind, but I realize that's personal choice. You can't dictate to people what they will or will not experience when listening to it, and you can't babysit everyone else's opinions. I certainly don't experience anything close to original, powerful, or freaky when I hear that fucking annoying song about the Tangerines, and I don't need anyone to explain to me why I should.
― humansuit, Sunday, 17 June 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)
Too bad nobody did one for Cupid and Psyche '85. : D
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)
It's too dark and twisted for anyone with any light in their life.
Is anyone else hugely confused by this as a general sentiment?
― Melissa W, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:16 (eighteen years ago)
Yes Paul McCartney is too dark and twisted for ANYONE with any light in their life. That's common knowledge.
― humansuit, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:17 (eighteen years ago)
see Alexis On Fire thread for more spouting by your favourite ILM BritX0rs
― blueski, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:24 (eighteen years ago)
on this article i mean
― blueski, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:25 (eighteen years ago)
There is a darkness and twistedness there! But his stance that everything was better before is reactionary.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)
We already did this, and we already (well, I already) thought 'Hmm, Green Gartside OTM'.
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)
I don't really like the majority of these albums that much either, but if you want to argue "overrated" you have to do better than "I don't get it"
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:30 (eighteen years ago)
Planet Englishes, which is also the only place on earth anyone could commit to print what That Guy From Cornershop has to say about DSOTM.
And yet, I still hate this less than Kill Your Idols.
― rogermexico., Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)
i've heard just 2 or 3 of these albums in FULL tops. i don't feel like i'm missing out on much but i'm pretty sure there's at least a couple of songs on all of these i would like.
― blueski, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)
There are a lot of Doors references in that story.
― Euler, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)
This was so much better...
Hi everyone. I just woke up to find that average blues guitar peddlar and all round unlikeable London pirate-like arsehole Keith Richard snorted his dad's ashes on a drug binge. Well done Keith, you talentless publicity hungry horrible prick of the highest order. He then goes on to say modern bands are a load of old crap. Right, but can we really listen to the opinions of a nasal cannibal?
Keith, your band are possibly the worst band in the history of human events, worse even than Placebo and The Reynolds Girls combined. Your posh English singer sings with an American accent about a load of old American prostitutes he met once and your guitar licks are Grade F. The sooner you die the quicker my Ladbrokes bet comes in between you and McCartney you old dick. I hope you kick the bucket in the most humiliating of ways, like on the toilet and then being eaten by your own dog. Stop living and give us peace you attention seeking non relevant oxygen thief.
Barry
― rogermexico., Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)
Peter Hook otm!
Someone please give Barry an ILM account.
― musically, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)
Actually, in all applicable cases except maybe Ian Williams, I'd rather listen to the dissed album than the disser's work.
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 19:44 (eighteen years ago)
There's also irony in these super-wealthy elite prog musicians positing themselves against The Man, having a go at the machine.
lolololol
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)
Tjinder Singh's comment about Radiohead more or less seals his status as a total charlatan. No, wait, he did that with "scarf-wearing university types", and continued to do so with every misinformed word he committed to print.
I don't even like DSOTM! PLZ 2 STOP DISCUSSING
P.S. The Beach Boys, Pet Sounds Nominated by Luke Pritchard of the Kooks
delete world
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:18 (eighteen years ago)
Alex Kapranos does a fine job explaining why Marquee Moon is so good, right up to where he mentions the Strokes.
― Mark Rich@rdson, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)
on what planet are the Doors considered a sacred cow? everyone knows that the only people that still consider them, like, important are stoners going through a classic rock phase in high school
― river wolf, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:30 (eighteen years ago)
no.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)
i always thought that making jokes about morrison's poetry was as easy and as boring as ripping on jewel.
― river wolf, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)
And people who think Morrison was a stoner Sinatra. Yes, I have met these people.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:33 (eighteen years ago)
I think lots of people still like The Doors, just maybe don't take them as seriously as they did in middle school.
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:35 (eighteen years ago)
he was really good. "his brain is squirming like a toad" is an ok line.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:35 (eighteen years ago)
WHO ARE THE STRAWMEN THAT "TOOK THE DOORS SERIOUSLY?"
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)
Oh come on I knew lots of people who spouted that "American poet" crap when they were 15.
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)
I owned two of his books in 9th grade!
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)
i still like the Doors! i guess i just thought it was universally accepted that morrison was totally ridiculous if you actually paid any sort of attention to him
xp tim waht that line is awful, and is textbook "...i need something that rhymes" songwriting
― river wolf, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:39 (eighteen years ago)
which is sometimes better than something "meaningful." i like "from a deep blue sea/seven horses seem to be on the mark" better, though.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:41 (eighteen years ago)
i mean, that toad line is precisely the thing that intentionally undercut the drama/seriousness of that music. i like the humor in that.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)
or "deep blue dream," i guess
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)
But what annoys me is the way people pontificate over [Marquee Moon]; it's one of those staples of student halls of residence.
Can't say I've been in one of those for a while, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest this is complete bollocks
― DJ Mencap, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)
yeah, maybe this is endemic to middle america, but there are loads of kids (KIDS, mind) with Doors posters (you know the one) up on their walls, between bob marley and a pot leaf. some of these people hold onto their beliefs through college, but they're rare, and sort of unfortunate people
xp see i never saw any of his humor as "intentional!" i agree that if you look at it that way you can give the guy some credit
― river wolf, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)
lester bangs wrote a couple of pieces praising him for that. they're really good.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)
anyway, i've got no real beef with morrison at all, it's more with the idea that craig finn's position on him is in any way "controversial."
xp huh. i'll have to seek those out, then
― river wolf, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)
yeah, maybe this is endemic to middle america
I also see this amongst working class/stoner white kids all throughout the south.
xxp
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)
(oh of course it is, hoos, i just always forget where Tim is posting from! also, i am from middle america, so i figured i'd stick with what i know)
― river wolf, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:47 (eighteen years ago)
A really interesting takedown (which you'd never see) would be to argue convincingly against something like XTC or The Cure. I certainly couldn't do it.
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:49 (eighteen years ago)
"Tjinder Singh's comment about Radiohead more or less seals his status as a total charlatan. No, wait, he did that with "scarf-wearing university types", and continued to do so with every misinformed word he committed to print."
Nah. Singh's bogies are more interesting than Radiohead's entire d/y. He's a major dude.
― Frogman Henry, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)
yeah, i guess if the belief they're holding onto is the idea that morrison's lyrics/poetry were ultimately INSIGHTFUL with regard to those topics to which they allude that are, in fact, serious (love, sex, sprituality, art, death, etc.), then that is sad.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)
yes, claiming that the Cure are a load of old pony is surely an impossible task, methinks, forsooth
― Ward Fowler, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:58 (eighteen years ago)
Also "scarf-wearing university types" are and always have been twots, but occasionally they come up with something like "Piper" or soft machine's first few. But you know, those are exceptions so it is our duty to rag on them.
― Frogman Henry, Sunday, 17 June 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)
if the belief they're holding onto is the idea that morrison's any rock musician's lyrics/poetry were ultimately INSIGHTFUL
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:03 (eighteen years ago)
i'm sort of empathetic to those kids, though, and the fact that they like morrison because he was genuinely interested in those subjects.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:03 (eighteen years ago)
wtf is "a load of old pony" xposts
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:04 (eighteen years ago)
so rock is the domain of dummies, then? there's no significant insight at least alluded to in its whole corpus?
2x-post
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:05 (eighteen years ago)
What are these drug addicts going on about? Pretty much covers it.
― Greist, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:06 (eighteen years ago)
No, no. It was an broad generalization, but people shouldn't be surprised ( or offended / bothered) when lyrics are a little shallow or imperfect. That's all.
x-post
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:07 (eighteen years ago)
"wtf is "a load of old pony""
the cure.
― Frogman Henry, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:09 (eighteen years ago)
I don't like The Cure that much, but I also don't know them well enoughtto write a takedown, and I don't have the energy to go through their catalog just to prove something (which I might not even wind up proving).
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:11 (eighteen years ago)
lol the cure.
― That one guy that quit, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:44 (eighteen years ago)
People have been ripping it out of The Cure for almost 30 years!
― DJ Mencap, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:45 (eighteen years ago)
"Dear God" makes me want to rip my ears off.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:51 (eighteen years ago)
"There's a certain irony in a song like Money that takes pot-shots at greedy corporations, when this album made so much money."
right. because the album made millions of dollars before it was even completed or released.
― Lawrence the Looter, Sunday, 17 June 2007 21:53 (eighteen years ago)
I always thought that song represented more of a cynical view of money in general than a shot at greedy corporations. I mean the band members were also cynical about the effect money had on themselves, if I remember correctly.
― Hurting 2, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:06 (eighteen years ago)
People expect us to love Television the way they think we love Gang of Four and were influenced by them - but we don't and we weren't!
No duh, Franz Ferdinand!
― Trayce, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:15 (eighteen years ago)
Hoos, EVERY band has had their own 'yeesh' moment. One song doth not a failure make, forsooth, yea. People have been ripping it out of The Cure for 30 years (lol Goth etc) but who can actually argue as to why they're shite? 'I just don't like them' is not (on its own) acceptable; you've got to say why. I don't especially like Miles Davis (from what I've heard), but I'd never dream of trying to attack his music, because the general weight of considered opinion states that he is an influential, pioneering genius. It's just not the sort of thing I enjoy listening to.
Who wants to take down Talk Talk?
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:23 (eighteen years ago)
(cue next 30 posts missing point entirely and telling me to listen to more miles davis) *sigh*
Well, you SHOULD listen to more Miles Davis.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:25 (eighteen years ago)
I'm pretty sure I've posted takedowns of the Cure on ILM that are at least as good as the ones in the Guardian article. But, actually, I find I appreciate them in doses. I included "Lovesong" on my rock music course.
― Sundar, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:26 (eighteen years ago)
LJ just wants 30 posts about him. Hopefully this is the last.
― blunt, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)
No I don't, I want 30 posts about why The Cure are rubbish, and why. Hopefully that is the last!
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:36 (eighteen years ago)
I don't still hold to this but since you asked: Most of the time, this stuff has the effect for me that I imagine Journey has for Eisbar and maybe the Smashing Pumpkins have for people who don't like them. It just feels like the cheesiest, drippiest music I've ever heard, which counts for something I guess. It's like taking the most archaic and melodramatic tropes from 19th century Romantic poetry and the corniest little-girl plays on words, delivering them in a stylized sob, and setting it all to ultra-saccharine over-'pretty' ringing guitars and obvious string arrangements, produced to sound as hollow and reverb-heavy (very spooky and ethereal I'm sure) - but with this weirdly gross 80s chorus/compression kind of gloss going on - as possible. Which works great for some people I guess but I personally find it incredible that so many people seem to be able to make a connection with it. I know I like lots of things that are just as crass and cheesy in their own way. E&tB just seem to me like they were going for this but weren't as good at it as The Cure was. Did they have any hits other than "The Killing Moon" (and was that that big of a hit to begin with?)?
-- sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, October 17, 2004 1:47 AM (2 years ago) Bookmark Link
produced to sound as hollow and reverb-heavy (very spooky and ethereal I'm sure) - but with this weirdly gross 80s chorus/compression kind of gloss going on
This might be what sinks it actually. I think that it might be the combination of what feels to me like the cheapness and crassness of that type of 80s pop crossed with the ultra-romantic dramatic ambitions of the music that seems so gross to me.
-- sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, October 17, 2004 1:51 AM (2 years ago) Bookmark Link
― Sundar, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:38 (eighteen years ago)
Go away Louis. This is not your late pass music learning environment, this is ILM and is cringeworthy enough these days, you are not helping. You are welcome back when you've actually heard enough music, especially by people you slag off.
― blunt, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:39 (eighteen years ago)
DO YOU KNOW WAHT UR NAME RHYMES WITH LOL
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:40 (eighteen years ago)
My point exactly. Now please, please find it in you to fuck the fuck off
― blunt, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:43 (eighteen years ago)
Oh, and thanks, Sundar, I can certainly see how your point functions. My counter to your argument would be that such an analysis may be accurate, but such a method IS 'pretty' and 'ethereal', and very effective as a result. I would also say that much Cure (Pornography especially) is far dirtier, nastier, and subtler in its melodic/lyrical concerns than you seem to be giving the band credit for.
Blunt, I'm intrigued by how much of a twazjumper you are. For instance, I would ask you who, precisely, you consider me to be 'slagging off'?
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:45 (eighteen years ago)
-- Greist, Sunday, June 17, 2007 9:06 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link
ok but wasn't one of the flaming lips a heroin addict at one point?
and couldn't "What are these drug addicts going on about?" be said for, say practically every fucking famous rock group ever?
it's such a weak, cheap ridiculous non-issue "criticism" that it makes me think that it was something tossed off by Coyne on the crapper while talking to the Gauardian on his cell phone.
― latebloomer, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:45 (eighteen years ago)
You are welcome back when you've actually heard enough music
With statements like these, YOU are the reason ILM is in the doldrums at the moment.
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:50 (eighteen years ago)
Nevermind "legitimized" "suffering"
― 2for25, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:54 (eighteen years ago)
'I just don't like them' is not (on its own) acceptable; you've got to say why.
yes it is and no you don't. for exactly the reasons that you consider yourself not well versed enough to do a takedown of Miles Davis it would be simple perverse for someone to listen to 10+ cure albums i order to tell you, or anyone else here, why they suck. unless you were gettin paid for it and even then...
the reason no one's taking down Talk Talk is because no one cares about them apart from those who love them and, much as i do, it bores my tits off that people reference them so often on ILM.
― jed_, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:55 (eighteen years ago)
Who is this band that sounds just like Nickelback?
This is a pretty fucking ridiculous thing to say.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:57 (eighteen years ago)
Fair enough. However, I'm not just avoiding a Miles Davis takedown because I'm not well versed enough. I'm avoiding a Miles Davis takedown because I believe that he is (in many other peoples' eyes, people whom I respect) a genius. I can be convinced of his gigantic artistic worth by the words of others. Ain't that grand? It isn't my kind of thing, but it's genius. Can I say that and not sound disingenuous?
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:58 (eighteen years ago)
Ian Penman has done a fair bit of this kind of thing and has done it extremely well, on the whole. great a journalist as he is he's still a perverse character.
to wit:
http://www.thewire.co.uk/archive/essays/zappa.html
― jed_, Sunday, 17 June 2007 23:05 (eighteen years ago)
very good article!
― Just got offed, Sunday, 17 June 2007 23:14 (eighteen years ago)
crucially i like it because Penman interests me rather than that i have any hate for Zappa (who i have barely heard) and the article says a lot about Penman's world-view. i guess it has similarities with Green Gartside's who's take-down of The Arcade Fire says more about GG than them.
― jed_, Sunday, 17 June 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)
i love scritti politti but people are giving green gartside a well easy ride here, his comments are about as dumb as all the others'.
(which is to say, pretty dumb, but i'm all for these particular canon albums getting torn into, even by people whose own music is close to worthless) (the "ooh they think they're so controversial" sneering is really disingenuous btw, if you all were so over anti-canoneering then why have there been 100 answers in like two hours?)
― lex pretend, Sunday, 17 June 2007 23:53 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.lovefilm.com/lovefilm/images/products/2/13412-large.jpg
― Dom Passantino, Sunday, 17 June 2007 23:59 (eighteen years ago)
<i>They were the Grateful Dead of punk...</i>
wow, that makes me want to listen to go home and listen to Television.
― poortheatre, Monday, 18 June 2007 00:00 (eighteen years ago)
Good work conflating the thread starter with all of ILM, Lex.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 18 June 2007 00:02 (eighteen years ago)
o i only skimmed the thread but there were enough similar attitudes really
― lex pretend, Monday, 18 June 2007 00:06 (eighteen years ago)
Let's talk about Led Zeppelin.
― Tape Store, Monday, 18 June 2007 00:06 (eighteen years ago)
the "ooh they think they're so controversial" sneering is really disingenuous btw, if you all were so over anti-canoneering then why have there been 100 answers in like two hours?
I'm having a hard time grasping the logical connection here
― Hurting 2, Monday, 18 June 2007 00:20 (eighteen years ago)
I thought the general stance here was that this kind of cow-tipping was a laughable, tired cliche. Which it is.
― Trayce, Monday, 18 June 2007 00:44 (eighteen years ago)
I think he's suggesting that we don't *really* believe it's a laughable, tired cliche, we just claim to believe it because we're SOOOO hip and cool and ahead of the curve on ILM.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 18 June 2007 00:55 (eighteen years ago)
because you think you are
― lex pretend, Monday, 18 June 2007 01:06 (eighteen years ago)
i don't think it's a cliche, and i think if you really did think it was as lame as you suggest, you'd do the logical thing and ignore it, but instead i see all these offended "how dare they!" responses...which validates the entire thing really
― lex pretend, Monday, 18 June 2007 01:08 (eighteen years ago)
but instead i see all these offended "how dare they!" responses...
i don't see any of these.
― jed_, Monday, 18 June 2007 01:11 (eighteen years ago)
lex, I could explain to you why you're wrong, but you're obviously not literate enough to comprehend the posts on this thread or you're just not trying, so I'm not going to bother.
― Hurting 2, Monday, 18 June 2007 01:56 (eighteen years ago)
"but i like their other albums" = weaksauce. pink floyd and the strokes are both guilty of having too much money :/
― bnw, Monday, 18 June 2007 02:05 (eighteen years ago)
The problem with the whole "overrated" trope is that there are always good reasons why people rate those things highly, and most people with any sense of perspective tend not to spend as much time thinking about what they dislike (or why others don't share their opinions) as what they like. Those who do--e.g. critics who are paid to--rarely get a real sense of what fans are responding to, or immerse themselves in the experience of fans. The result is sometimes bizarre projections about fans, or dismissiveness and reductionism about the music.
Which is fine--that kind of writing can tell you something, too (I'm thinking about Byron Coley's hatred of the Clash and Husker Du), and we're all guilty of dismissiveness out of necessity. I'm probably never going to have the time or money to figure out why the Cure, beyond their first album, gets so much love on ILM--and that's... OKAY. What bugs me is the assumption that it's somehow more rigorous or conscientious to have a "take" on what you don't get than to just say "I don't get it" and move on.
I'm much more interested in a person's peculiar dislike for an album or band that they actually listened to a lot and thought about a lot, usually a fan who's been burned, usually someone who's argued with other fans. That kind of criticism involves admitting personal idiosyncracy and falability, using "I" rather than "you" or "the audience."
Which is why I appreciate Coynes's take on Nirvana as something like that, reading it as autobiography. I can see what he means when he says, "You can never just hear the record." Except that I do hear it, whenever a Nevermind track comes on modern hard rock radio, and I go back to when I first heard the record and there was no Kurt Cobain, just Nirvana. So I view that failing as his, not the album's.
And Billy Childish basically admits to loving Sgt. Peppers when he was seven. So did I, at that age; I just have more trouble telling my younger self that I was wrong. I wish people would be upfront about their subjectivity: Craig Finn's experience isn't everyone's when it comes to the Doors--I never knew anything about Morrison's myth, death, or poet status when I got into those records as a kid in the early '80s, and I never smoked pot to them. I would think the greatness of a hook like "Keep your eyes on the road and your hands up on the wheel" would be pretty plain to the author of "Take a look at what I've got and compare it to what you've got--now what do you think my girl wants?" but whatever.
― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 18 June 2007 02:35 (eighteen years ago)
P.S. My justification for criticizing "overrated" while responding to an article based on the idea is this: I always hope for some of that self-examination or revelation, and usually get it--albeit indirectly.
― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 18 June 2007 02:47 (eighteen years ago)
http://m.assetbar.com/achewood/autaux%3Fb%3DM%5Ea11f09b8576e606bcb5038dfdb92fb821%26u%3Dhttp%3A//achewood.com/comic.php%3Fdate%3D06262002
― pretzel walrus, Monday, 18 June 2007 02:54 (eighteen years ago)
uh i mean:
http://m.assetbar.com/uuabBBPS0.gif
― pretzel walrus, Monday, 18 June 2007 02:55 (eighteen years ago)
haha
― river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 02:56 (eighteen years ago)
hahahaha!
― Trayce, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:02 (eighteen years ago)
Unless you are willing to relax some major assumptions about the direction of time.
― humansuit, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:09 (eighteen years ago)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/tapestore/comix.jpg
― Tape Store, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:11 (eighteen years ago)
Also what the hell is it with the Doors, that they are somehow held up to have failed in being meaningful? LA Woman is simply a great song, for example, and any meaning to it is what I supply. I don't have to juxtipose the fact that Jim Morrison was an asshole onto that. If I did that, I would take no band seriously, and I would lose the enjoyment of so many bands whose songwriters were just idiots. Do you guys feel this way about Guns N Roses, for example? Axl Rose is a niegh retarded in his daily life, but I don't care.
― humansuit, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:14 (eighteen years ago)
xp aw dude don't go making achewood unfunny like that
― pretzel walrus, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:18 (eighteen years ago)
uhhhhh.....that was kind of the point (except for the 'making' part)
― Tape Store, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:22 (eighteen years ago)
-- Kevin John Bozelka, Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:21 PM (9 hours ago)
i do
― am0n, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:24 (eighteen years ago)
I read that as "Axl Rose is a neigh retarded" and thought of this:
http://funnypics.free.fr/explorer/public/gifs/dancing_jakeass.gif
― marmotwolof, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:30 (eighteen years ago)
thank you for that
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:34 (eighteen years ago)
I think you summed it up better than I ever could.
― humansuit, Monday, 18 June 2007 03:37 (eighteen years ago)
Latebloomer was totally OTM on Wayne Coyne about eight posts into the thread.
― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Monday, 18 June 2007 04:31 (eighteen years ago)
i kind of exaggerated my hate for Soft Bulletin...i mean it's really overrated but it's got some decent tunes. it's the direction their music took because of that record that really pisses me off.
― latebloomer, Monday, 18 June 2007 05:08 (eighteen years ago)
the last album was a bit less candy ass production wise
― marmotwolof, Monday, 18 June 2007 05:17 (eighteen years ago)
wayne coyne is awesome.
― chaki, Monday, 18 June 2007 05:22 (eighteen years ago)
I actually like the direction it took them in but got no use for soft bulletin. it's very foreboding despite the sheen for some reason; just bad vibes.
― tremendoid, Monday, 18 June 2007 06:35 (eighteen years ago)
Last one I liked was Clouds Taste Metallic. Zaireeka = what the fuck am I made out of CD players?
― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Monday, 18 June 2007 08:32 (eighteen years ago)
Priest, Hit & Trans is peak IMO
― marmotwolof, Monday, 18 June 2007 08:47 (eighteen years ago)
mark ronson comes across as the biggest moron for mine, but his opinion is nowhere as offensive as that clown trying to slam velvet underground and nico.
mark coyne makes a feasible enough point, but the word 'hypocrite' springs to mind a little too quickly.
― Charlie Howard, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:00 (eighteen years ago)
hahaha I'd like to know what Mark Coyne's pick for something like this would be
― marmotwolof, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:05 (eighteen years ago)
hahah sorry. maybe if he starts putting out decent records again i'll stop taking him for his brother
― Charlie Howard, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:08 (eighteen years ago)
i definitely understand being burnt out on Nevermind, and the obvious point of its impact being diluted by imitators. just the way the sentiment was expressed was lazy and like Charlie said, hypocritical.
― latebloomer, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:09 (eighteen years ago)
I have tried so hard to get into the Flaming Lips and I just can't. Which is weird cause I like Mercury Rev.
― Trayce, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:13 (eighteen years ago)
I have tried so hard to get into the Flaming Lips and I just can't.
i hear that
― That one guy that quit, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:15 (eighteen years ago)
I'll take the best of Rev over the best of the Lips, but the worst of the Lips over the worst of Rev.
― marmotwolof, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:19 (eighteen years ago)
i'm glad i haven't bothered to listen to the worst of rev
― Charlie Howard, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:56 (eighteen years ago)
ya i did not buy secret migration either. i don't get all the soft bulletin hatred though! it's a pretty good album!
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:57 (eighteen years ago)
maybe with a different lyricist, singer, and producer it'd be ok.
― That one guy that quit, Monday, 18 June 2007 09:59 (eighteen years ago)
I will admit that I haven't listened to it in a while, but it's a very good album for the impressionable teenager. Call it a gateway drug to greater things. I can see how it could be regarded as saccharine and even nauseous in places.
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:04 (eighteen years ago)
You are welcome back when you've actually heard enough music, especially by people you slag off.
that's the new board motto right there
― blueski, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:09 (eighteen years ago)
louis have you heard hit to death in the future head
― marmotwolof, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:10 (eighteen years ago)
i was the impressionable teenager digging the soft bulletin, no doubt
hit to death... involves a little too much acid (or something) for me, though i certainly enjoy the two that came after it, which are still under some sort of influence
― Charlie Howard, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:20 (eighteen years ago)
Briefly, but I prefer Transmissions and Clouds Taste Metallic (their best album). I have also heard Zaireeka once, and it was great! I must get in touch with that friend again and organise another Zaireeka party...
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:25 (eighteen years ago)
make sure you've got acid...
ok, i'll stop now
― Charlie Howard, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:34 (eighteen years ago)
the first time i heard anything from 'The Soft Bulletin' was at a FAP four years ago and the beer-fuelled revelry meant that 'Race For The Prize' sounded quite pleasant to my drunken ears
― blueski, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)
Aw, Hit to Death is fantastic but it takes a few spins, if you haven't listened to it much and don't have it, d/l "Talkin' 'Bout the Smiling Deathporn Immortality Blues (Everyone Wants to Live Forever)," "Felt Good to Burn," "Halloween on the Barbary Coast" and "The Magician vs. the Headache."
― marmotwolof, Monday, 18 June 2007 10:36 (eighteen years ago)
Kapranos on Television OTM
― Erroneous Botch, Monday, 18 June 2007 12:12 (eighteen years ago)
Kapranos on Television = manager of Leeds United saying Sunderland are shit
― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 18 June 2007 12:19 (eighteen years ago)
t/s: dennis wise vs. alex kapranos
i shall return to HTDITFH. up until Zaireeka the Flaming Lips were pretty hot stuff. the one i really want to hear is 'in a priest driven ambulance'.
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 13:55 (eighteen years ago)
you still boycotting poll threads?
― acrobat, Monday, 18 June 2007 13:57 (eighteen years ago)
http://freakytrigger.co.uk/hate/
― Tracer Hand, Monday, 18 June 2007 13:58 (eighteen years ago)
These days, I would rather listen to the Bay City Rollers than Beefheart. peter hook does not stop to amaze me.
― alex in mainhattan, Monday, 18 June 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)
lots of people
― deej, Monday, 18 June 2007 14:25 (eighteen years ago)
more annoying is the cult of 'why doesn't anyone realize pac is overrated!!??'
― deej, Monday, 18 June 2007 14:29 (eighteen years ago)
HE WASN'T REALLY A GANGSTER HE WAS AN ACTOR LOL AMIRIET?
― Dom Passantino, Monday, 18 June 2007 14:31 (eighteen years ago)
The Guardian's idea of the greatest rap album ever would probably be Motormouth by Ben Elton.
― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 18 June 2007 14:35 (eighteen years ago)
-- deej, Monday, June 18, 2007 2:29 PM
I don't know, between ILM and my classmates I get a pretty even split.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 18 June 2007 17:26 (eighteen years ago)
yeah i know what you mean, but i say enjoy it before he turns into our kids' generation's bob marley
― deej, Monday, 18 June 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)
i liked the billy childish one.
― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 18 June 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)
Thing with the Billy Childish one is that it tells you about his aesthetic and approach to music - which is fine, and I like his music - but doesn't make any case for Sgt Pepper being a bad album. He's just saying "all non-garage music sucks".
― Noodle Vague, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:15 (eighteen years ago)
um...i guess...but i think he does have a point about the sort over labored quality that sgt pepper's has....ie he thinks it's a music hall record not a rock record...
― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)
i mean he's obviously okay w/revolver and rubber soul because he says this was their "death as a rock n roll band", so i don't know if he's saying everything has to be total garage (and the beatles were never that garagey anyway)
do you really think sgt. pepper is over-labored, matt?
― Tim Ellison, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:47 (eighteen years ago)
that argument that sgt. pepper signalled the death of real rock and roll has been made a million times, though. i think it's ironic that the sgt. pepper theme song and good morning good morning are more rocking than anything on rubber soul or revolver.
― Tim Ellison, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:49 (eighteen years ago)
and "getting better" was their most bursting pop-rock song in a while, too.
― Tim Ellison, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)
i love soft bulletin. that shit is EPIC. just got the 'demastered' version. the drums sound even BIGGER.
― chaki, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)
'the spark that bled', 'waitin' for superman', 'the gash' = how can u hate :(
'suddenly everything has changed' = fucking incredible, one of the finest representations of aural bathos I've ever heard.
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)
Ah, don't blame the interviewees for having boring &/or received opinions. Blame the writer &/or editor who came up with this lameass feature.
― Martin Van Burne, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:58 (eighteen years ago)
you need to buy something fucking soul records
xpost
― strongohulkington, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)
<i>do you really think sgt. pepper is over-labored, matt?
-- Tim Ellison, Monday, June 18, 2007 8:47 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Link</i>
about half is to me...mr. kite, fixing a hole, within you and without you, i'd say when i'm 64, but i guess it's just more i don't like it than overlabored...sometimes i wish that day in the life skipped all the junk in the middle and was shorter....i've never been that huge on lucy in the sky either...
but she's leaving home is maybe overlabored but it's gorgeous, so yeah i guess i'm kinda talking out my ass here.
― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:01 (eighteen years ago)
but it wasn't the death of rock n' roll or anything.
― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:02 (eighteen years ago)
Emotional anticlimax (denoting sudden, crushing failure) is a very difficult effect to achieve; you say that quite a bit of soul does it particularly well? xxpost
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04 (eighteen years ago)
i got soul records, fool.
― chaki, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04 (eighteen years ago)
uh louis given your obnoxious post yesterday can i just point out that the last few of montreal records are like a million times more mature than the flaming lips? okthx.
― Tim Ellison, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:10 (eighteen years ago)
which obnoxious post? :-P
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:15 (eighteen years ago)
you made some dumb comment about of montreal should only appeal to people of high school age and then you're praising the freaking flaming lips and u need a slap.
― Tim Ellison, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:20 (eighteen years ago)
I didn't say that! You must be confusing me with someone else.
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)
oh i'm sorry! it was "the table is the table." sorry louis.
― Tim Ellison, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)
there's this one nice atmospheric track on 'soft bulletin'. about a minute from the end it's ruined beyong help by that cunt coyne mewling over it.
― That one guy that quit, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)
Weirdly, I also always mix up louis and table is the table. And also sometimes HI DERE, even though I know HI DERE is D&n P3rry.
― Hurting 2, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:34 (eighteen years ago)
The "Sgt. Pepper's Was the Death of Rock and Roll" thing is so funny, like if they hadn't made that record we'd have all been listening to Jerry Lee Lewis 24-7 for the last 40 years.
― Mark Rich@rdson, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:37 (eighteen years ago)
I've ragged on Sgt. Pepper's plenty of times but it's pretty hard to argue it's without merit. At least a few of the songs are really good, and even the ones I don't like aren't really THAT bad.
Hell, I hate Nevermind, but even that has its merits.
― Hurting 2, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:43 (eighteen years ago)
"Sorry Louis" indeed
― blunt, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:44 (eighteen years ago)
-- blunt, Sunday, 17 June 2007 22:34 (Yesterday) Bookmark Link
― Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:46 (eighteen years ago)
if they hadn't made that record we'd have all been listening to Jerry Lee Lewis 24-7 for the last 40 years.
actually that wouldn't be that bad
― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 18 June 2007 22:03 (eighteen years ago)
Emotional anticlimax (denoting sudden, crushing failure) is a very difficult effect to achieve; you say that quite a bit of soul does it particularly well? xxpost-- Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04 (2 hours ago) Link--------------------------------------------------------------------------------i got soul records, fool.-- chaki, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04
-- Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04 (2 hours ago) Link
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- chaki, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04
this is possibly my favorite exchange ever.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 18 June 2007 23:53 (eighteen years ago)
Wayne Coyne is right. Nickelback have plenty of songs that sound just like Endless Nameless and Territorial Pissings.
― billstevejim, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 00:12 (eighteen years ago)
And Tourette's!
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 00:16 (eighteen years ago)
no Wayne likes In Utero
― marmotwolof, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 00:17 (eighteen years ago)
i say enjoy it before he turns into our kids' generation's bob marley
That already happened!
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 00:19 (eighteen years ago)
^^^ troo
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 00:21 (eighteen years ago)
This album is a sort of lab experiment, put together by scarf-wearing university types.
This is a bad thing?
― Mr. Snrub, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 02:52 (eighteen years ago)
is "university-types" really a dig in the uk?
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 02:54 (eighteen years ago)
So much has been written about these albums that you pretty much already know what they're going to say about the album before you read it!
"Morrison was more like a drunk asshole than an intelligent poet." NO FUCKING SHIT?????
― Mr. Snrub, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 03:05 (eighteen years ago)
If you can afford to go to university, that means you're upper-class, that means you're a Tory, that means you're evil.
Tossers.
― Mr. Snrub, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 03:06 (eighteen years ago)
Wait a minute, are you sure? I thought working class folks could go to Uni as easily as upper-class folks in the UK, cause the government paid for it. Am I wrong?
This is a fantastic thread, btw. LJ actually makes a lot of sense upthread. And then blunt tries to kick him off as though he couldn't how much sense he was making. Bizarre.
I'd like to go back to what Pete Scholtes posted, though in response to this quote:
<quote>I just don't like them' is not (on its own) acceptable; you've got to say why.</end quote>
I'm interested in why this is something a lot of folks on ILM tend to feel - that it's not enough to say "I don't like it" that you must give a reason - why? Is it because it's simply more interesting that way? Does it give greater credibility to that person's opinion if they say why in great detail? Or is it because if they gave reasons, you could more affectively argue with them and get them into said music after all? Pete had said what often results is the person reveals something about themselves when they give reasons, and that's what he's looking for. But why do so many others here say "you must give a reason" for not liking something?
― Bimble, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 04:11 (eighteen years ago)
Delighted to see Green go after Arcade Fire with so much precision, btw, and Peter Hook take on Captain Beefheart, who I find as inscrutable as Zappa.
― Bimble, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 04:13 (eighteen years ago)
I ask for reasons because I want to know why people don't like things. I like discussions rather than RAWK/SUCKS. It's why I prefer the C/D threads where people discuss the stuff in question rather than people just chiming in with CLASSIC or DUD DUD DUD.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 05:34 (eighteen years ago)
is it my imagination, or does luke pritchard totally make a non-case?
― Charlie Howard, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 06:17 (eighteen years ago)
Does Mr. Flaming Lips come off as the most sour-grapesy?
― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 06:35 (eighteen years ago)
he does seem pretty bitter on second-glance. probably no point slamming the cover art.
― Charlie Howard, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 06:53 (eighteen years ago)
It's why I prefer the C/D threads where people discuss the stuff in question rather than people just chiming in with CLASSIC or DUD DUD DUD.
Well, fair enough, I can understand that. But I also think it's time we take a look at what poll threads have done to the discourse here. If you look at poll threads, what most people do is merely say what they voted for (and perhaps I myself am guilty of this at times). This in fact can become terribly boring and skeletal. There is a lack of conversation, of pithy discussion. I've called attention to this on another thread already I believe, but I think it's worth saying again. What has this fun new toy done to us? What are we striving for here? Polls are barrels of fun, but I think many don't realize that voting is not the same as posting and vice versa.
― Bimble, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 07:09 (eighteen years ago)
I opted for the HIDE POLLS option. It makes life so much calmer and simpler.
― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 07:10 (eighteen years ago)
'university types' is something of a dig..but an anachronistic one, since the govt decided to expand further education in order to keep the unemployment figures down
― Filey Camp, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 08:08 (eighteen years ago)
"When I'm drunk in a club I usually end up arguing with the DJ who's playing them."
this is starting to annoy me more than anything else featured in those interviews.
― Charlie Howard, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 08:20 (eighteen years ago)
LJ actually makes a lot of sense upthread. And then blunt tries to kick him off as though he couldn't how much sense he was making. Bizarre. I never how much sense he's making, that's a fact.
― blunt, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 08:26 (eighteen years ago)
it's the other way round: middle-class and working-class are alike part-subsidized by the government, but they also have to pay (aka borrow) lots of money to do it. upper-class folk get subsidized too but they're numerically insignificant.
― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 08:26 (eighteen years ago)
the strokes being the new duran is the most ridiculous comment imaginable. if i were to think of a polar opposite to the strokes (middle class modelling school posh boys go 'street tough') then duran (working class street kids get out of shit-hole, go glamourous, marry models) would just about be it. silly BATTLES math-rock pillock.
― pisces, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 08:33 (eighteen years ago)
LOL @ Cornershop dude still fighting the battles of '77, 30yrs on.
The article is basically space-filler & super boring. Tanya does/did it 1000 times better IE actually FUNNY (sometimes)
― Pashmina, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 09:37 (eighteen years ago)
"Morrison was more like a drunk asshole than an intelligent poet."
And thank fuck for that!
― Tom D., Tuesday, 19 June 2007 09:40 (eighteen years ago)
What has this fun new toy done to us?
Polls only do what any other kind of thread do and that is reveal the nature (quality even) of an individual's contributions/imagination at that time.
It's easier to vote and then mention what you voted for than it is to explain it convincingly in depth - but arguing that polls inherently facilitate laziness is unfair given the number of existing thread types on ILM that generate equally 'lazy' responses.
― blueski, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 09:48 (eighteen years ago)
Indeed, I'd rather a poll thread than a list thread for example.
― Trayce, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 10:25 (eighteen years ago)
TS: List yr fav poll threads vs. Poll: yr fave list threads.
― ledge, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)
TS: TS vs. C/D
― Lostandfound, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 19:48 (eighteen years ago)
somehow i am tempted to make three polls out of this. your favourite album, your least favourite album and the album you think is most overrated. my fave would be vu & nico, the least fave would be arrival, the most overrated marquee moon. which i kind of like but find too long and lacking in diversity. it reminds me too much of the grateful dead. i just don't get it.
― alex in mainhattan, Tuesday, 19 June 2007 20:05 (eighteen years ago)
Wait, I'm all for giving reasons why you don't like something. I'm just saying it's okay not to have a "take" on everything. When someone asks me what I think of the Rolling Stones, I say I haven't gotten into them yet, which is true (outside of a few songs). Do I like them less than the Beatles? Sure, but there's no point in saying so, or voting so. It's like saying I like arctic exploration less than walks through the park.
I also think the urge to have a passionate take on everything inevitably leads to judging and theorizing about audiences, which is dicey. I mean, some of my favorite critics make wild assumptions about what's going on inside the heads of people who disagree with them. Some of that writing is great, but it always says more about the writer than the audience.
"Overrated" is just just shorthand for "I like something less than a lot of people do, and they're the deluded ones," so you've got to describe why they're deluded to make your case, and do it with the sympathy of someone who has himself been deluded before.
― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 00:59 (eighteen years ago)
Pete incredibly OTM. Not everything in the canon has to completely blow you away, and if it doesn't that doesn't necessarily signify some huge wrong that needs to be righted. There's nothing wrong with neither understanding a record's popularity nor having some complex theory that undermines the validity of its popularity.
― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 01:18 (eighteen years ago)
is ian williams a stage name for chr1s 0tt?
― aaron d.g., Tuesday, 3 July 2007 00:12 (eighteen years ago)
Wow, Ian Williams is a fucking idiot.
― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 13:32 (eighteen years ago)
The Strokes were just rich kids from uptown New York; the children of the heads of supermodel agencies who formed a rock band and thought they deserved respect because of that.
Besides the sentiment being completely idiotic, nothing about that actual sentence makes any sense.
"Dude - that band The Strokes? They rich! I know! And while I'm at it, what's up with Rage Against the Machine? I mean, Machine?! They're on a major label, dude! That IS the machine!"
― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 13:38 (eighteen years ago)
Suddenly the downtown, older form of punk rock got co-opted by the system.
― Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)
New York is full of rich kid bands -- that doesn't mean most of them succeed.
― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 13:59 (eighteen years ago)
Come to think of it, where were the Strokes in the BBC series Seven Ages Of Rock?
― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 14:06 (eighteen years ago)
Who cares whether a musician grew up rich or not? If the music's good it's good, if it blows, it blows. I don't care what Daddy did.
― Bill Magill, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 14:09 (eighteen years ago)
Ian Williams of Battles does. He's as mad as hell, and he's not going to take this anymore.
― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)
Clearly you're saying that because your dad was rich.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 15:09 (eighteen years ago)
but was his mother good looking?
― Mark G, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 15:20 (eighteen years ago)
take my grout, please!
― blueski, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)
I'm wayyy too late for this thread aren't I?
In summ:
Wayne Coyne says everything I thought about Nevermind.
Tjinder is only talking about "Money" whereas....
Billy Childish is a "ahmburg" fan so likes a bitta rock.
I'm bored now.
― Mark G, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)
"Clearly you're saying that because your dad was rich."
Don't I wish. Wanna adopt me?
― Bill Magill, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)
"But why do so many others here say "you must give a reason" for not liking something?"
If you're saying "this doesn't grab me" or "I don't get this", then there's no need for a reason. If you're saying "this is shit" or some variation on "people think they enjoy this but really they don't", then yeah, that kinda requires an explanation.
― Patrick, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 03:46 (eighteen years ago)
If you're saying "this doesn't grab me" or "I don't get this", then there's no need for a reason an article
― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 03:48 (eighteen years ago)
Lou Reed shits all over the Strokes. In fact, even that guy Steve Malkmus from Pavement shits all over the Strokes.
― Bimble, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 03:50 (eighteen years ago)
Does he?
― Tim Ellison, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 04:08 (eighteen years ago)
i get the impression they must play the first stone roses album everywhere in the uk, like in mcdonalds and grocery stores
― babedad, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 05:25 (eighteen years ago)
Don't know where you got that impression from - over here, all you get in the supermarkets is James Morrison and Corinne Bailey Rae a go-go. When the first Stone Roses album was new, substitute names like Deacon Blue and Wet Wet Wet.
― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 4 July 2007 07:00 (eighteen years ago)
Oh, and in the McDonalds of the late eighties, it was Level 42 all the way.
Ian Rankin IS an idiot.
― James Redd and the Blecchs, Friday, 21 December 2007 02:47 (eighteen years ago)
Siobhan Donaghy's "nomination" holds less insight than the average YouTube comment.
― musically, Friday, 21 December 2007 03:24 (eighteen years ago)
Mark Ronson on the money about Pac.
Last guy Ian Rankin comes across as huge douchebag.
I think Sgt Pepper's and Nevermind are good but I can see where the criticisms are coming from.
Also, guy who dissed the Strokes was kind of an idiot too.
― Colin_C., Friday, 21 December 2007 03:24 (eighteen years ago)
Mark Ronson can fuck off.
― The Reverend, Friday, 21 December 2007 06:28 (eighteen years ago)
for real. i can see just not digging Pac, i guess, but liking only one song on that album = your taste is shit. except for that lily allen song.
― tremendoid, Friday, 21 December 2007 07:22 (eighteen years ago)
Ronson is kind of a joke anyway, so this is just another insight into why he's shit.
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 09:04 (eighteen years ago)
i thought latebloomer was a us noizer?
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 21 December 2007 09:21 (eighteen years ago)
I miss a well-deserved slaughtering of "Nevermind The Bollocks". It's easy to get one, they might just have asked Rick Wakeman or Keith Emerson.
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 21 December 2007 11:49 (eighteen years ago)
The most interesting bit here I think is Coyne's piece of "Nevermind", which is sort of precicely my thoughts as well (except I like it better than their other albums). I mean, obviously it is a great album. Great songs, great production. Everything. But then, when you look at all the stuff it influenced, and how it sounds in the light of that... well.....
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 21 December 2007 11:52 (eighteen years ago)
-- That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, December 21, 2007 9:21 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link
I'm American as McDonald's apple pie!
― latebloomer, Friday, 21 December 2007 11:57 (eighteen years ago)
i thought linking to shitty guardian articles was a britishes thing is all.
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:04 (eighteen years ago)
or even just a you thing
― blueski, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:07 (eighteen years ago)
― James Redd and the Blecchs, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:09 (eighteen years ago)
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/01/200px-Prince_Controversy.jpg
-- blueski, Friday, December 21, 2007 12:07 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
lolol
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)
I disagree!
― J0hn D., Friday, 21 December 2007 12:18 (eighteen years ago)
That 2 Pac album is one of few rap albums I can stomach. Mainly because of Dr. Dre's arrangements. They are ace and make me forget about the annoying rapping on top. :)
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:49 (eighteen years ago)
GEIR REPRESENT
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:50 (eighteen years ago)
― gr8080, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:57 (eighteen years ago)
The "Sgt. Pepper's Was the Death of Rock and Roll" thing is so funny
And people have been going on about that since the days of punk. I mean, obviously "Sgt. Pepper" influenced a lot of prog and symphonic rock and you'd have a hard time imagining those genres ever happen if it wasn't for "Sgt. Pepper". Which is fine for us who love prog and symphonic rock, but probably a pain in the ass for those who don't.
Exactly the same way rap and hip-hop are the main reasons for my hatred towards James Brown, not his music in itself (repetitive and boring as it is though).
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 21 December 2007 12:57 (eighteen years ago)
KISS GEIR'S RING
― Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 21 December 2007 13:05 (eighteen years ago)
Sgt PISSER morelike
― Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 21 December 2007 13:42 (eighteen years ago)
i seriously would smack the fuck out of mark ronson
― and what, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:12 (eighteen years ago)
Mark RonSHIT morelike
― Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)
read this as smash
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)
"I've got Mark Ron backing me up/ I'm already on a song with Nate Dogg/ So why you wanna hate dog?"
― Dom Passantino, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)
Mark Ronson was very poor on Never Mind The Buzzcocks last night.
― Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)
enrique on top of dom as usual
― and what, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)
no youtube link please
― Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)
oooh "controversial"
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 21 December 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)
Used to go out with a girl who'd spend hours watching blowjob clips on RedTube.com, then complain that it didn't look like the women were sufficiently "into" it.
― Dom Passantino, Friday, 21 December 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)
Just sayin', like.
― Dom Passantino, Friday, 21 December 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)
i like green gartside even more now.
fella from battles also OTM.
also eddie argos, even tho his records suck. roses is where the rot set in, innit.
― pc user, Friday, 21 December 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)
but the viola on Venus In Furs sounds like a Tom and Jerry sound effect.
http://www.hollowearth.org/images/dockstader.jpg
― s. morris, Friday, 21 December 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)
Heh. I liked most of these bits, even when I like the album generally. The only one that I think was totally off the mark was the Abba bit, and it seems like a lotta ILXers here are pretending that their fave canon bits are so beyond reproach that they can't even imagine slaggin' 'em.
― I eat cannibals, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:21 (eighteen years ago)
I think it's more a case of people would slag them for real faults rather than going "grrrr Strokes are posh kids" or "ABBA are old peoples" or "hi dere I am Ian Ranking and I have cement fucking ears".
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)
Did Wakeman really hate Bollocks?
― Sundar, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:33 (eighteen years ago)
He certainly talked a lot of it.
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)
Dr Dre produced it, and I didn't rate his production, either.
would an american really say "rate"
i think you britishers secretly invented mark ronson.
― s1ocki, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)
xpost haha
― Sundar, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:39 (eighteen years ago)
Ronson is British isn't he?
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:39 (eighteen years ago)
I didn't realize "rate" was a Briticism, even though I'm pretty sure I never heard it before coming to ILX.
― The Reverend, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:42 (eighteen years ago)
Yeah, Ronson in British.
ronson is a cunt and he is integrally part of the whole empty celebration of the famous and the artistically bereft that the government and the media are only too happy to shove down our throats. nothing he has done says anything except "here is a famous celebrity artist whose work I have made my mark upon by adding signature brass instrumentation". it's fucked-up posturing assfeeding bullshit
― Just got offed, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:45 (eighteen years ago)
LJ srsly have you had a few drinks?
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)
-- and what, Friday, December 21, 2007 6:56 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Link
"watch me superman dat hoe"
― chaki, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)
(Ronson can't produce for shit, agreed. Don't think he's a government plot tho.)
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)
i have had nothing to drink, except the prose of jeff nuttall, who has imbued me with a layer of cultural awareness i was straining towards but not quite seeing. this is what literature does to you. it is subversive and should be banned.
ronson isn't a government plot, but he's integrally part of a cultural system that is deadening our people to genuine artistic feeling. he's one of the beautiful people.
― Just got offed, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:48 (eighteen years ago)
Don't want to derail thread, but want to observe that deadening people, genuine artistic feeling, and cultural system are v. contestable ideas in the way you're using them here. And that the Golden Age is always in the past.
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:51 (eighteen years ago)
I believe that the golden age is everpresent in a minority of artistic circles. Ronson and his ilk piss me off like you wouldn't believe though.
― Just got offed, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:53 (eighteen years ago)
Monied dilettantes have always been around. Some of them make good stuff.
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:58 (eighteen years ago)
hmm.
time to calm down and reapproach the situation this time with no hammer swinging
― Just got offed, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)
""hi dere I am Ian Ranking and I have cement fucking ears"."
But he's essentially right about The Strokes being really conservative rock music. The rest is just kinda knee-jerk anti-privilege extratextual bullshit, but I remember engaging in a bit of that back when the album came out as sort of a reaction against the "authentic punk!" that it was getting in some quarters. But yeah, it's dumb, what, six years out.
― I eat cannibals, Friday, 21 December 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)
Rankin slagged off Velvet Underground and Nico. It was Battles dude calling out Strokes, and I think the fact that it was him kinda added to the pettiness of the critique.
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 20:01 (eighteen years ago)
Erm, isn't Rankin's complaints about the production on the VU first album actually correct?
He's right about Cale's viola, wrong about the mothers of invention being betterm right about Nico and half wrong about the last two tracks being pish.
Which is a lot better batting average than the drivel Gartside spouts about the Arcade Fire whats does "solidly unattractive, texturally nasty"acually mean an how does it not apply to Scritti's later work?
― Sandy Blair, Friday, 21 December 2007 21:00 (eighteen years ago)
Okay, so he's not the only person in the world with concrete fucking ears.
― The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Friday, 21 December 2007 21:01 (eighteen years ago)
"Rankin slagged off Velvet Underground and Nico."
All you Ians look the same to me.
But I think Rankin was pretty much right about VU (of course, I'm one of those bad people who doesn't like Nico very much at all, and generally prefers other VU albums).
― I eat cannibals, Friday, 21 December 2007 21:39 (eighteen years ago)
and it seems like a lotta ILXers here are pretending that their fave canon bits are so beyond reproach that they can't even imagine slaggin' 'em.
It has been done so many times before. Slagging off the canon is an old and tired idea. Surely, if you slag off more "underground" canon stuff like Velvet Underground, Captain Beefheart or The Stooges there may be some point in it, as those are usually the favourites of the ones who like to slag off the rest of the canon. But otherwise.....
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 21 December 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)
WAHT ELSE IS OLD AND TIRED DO TELL
― blueski, Friday, 21 December 2007 21:56 (eighteen years ago)
it still baffles me how the roses are considered a "classic" band. sooooo mediocre.
― pc user, Saturday, 22 December 2007 14:33 (eighteen years ago)
nothing he has done says anything except "here is a famous celebrity artist whose work I have made my mark upon by adding signature brass instrumentation". it's fucked-up posturing assfeeding bullshit
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CG9C7FBNL._AA240_.jpg
― energy flash gordon, Sunday, 23 December 2007 04:07 (eighteen years ago)
He's really hot though.
― musically, Sunday, 23 December 2007 04:18 (eighteen years ago)
ok the bit that fucked me off in rankin's speil was this
There's a line in Venus in Furs about "ermine furs adorn imperious". Those are four words that should never appear in a rock song and here they are put together.
the rest of it is boring opinion (i don't like how it sounds on my Bose, i don't like Nico - oo do tell us more), but i don't think a writer of identikit airport crime fiction should be telling people who work in other art forms how much they should limit themselves in their use of words, just because he's done quite well financially out of being extremely limited himself. But then y'know, aak a hack to review something way above him and that'll happen.
― Frogman Henry, Sunday, 23 December 2007 04:35 (eighteen years ago)
ask
― Frogman Henry, Sunday, 23 December 2007 04:36 (eighteen years ago)
I don't think a writer of identikit airport crime fiction should be telling people who work in other art forms
Eh? Can you provide a list of which people are allowed to comment on other art forms? Maybe break it down by some sort of quality measurement of specific characteristics...
We can use this to sack vast swathes of the critical writing community - a good thing obviously. Both pitchfork, and the NME will be ghost towns!
"ask a hack to review something way above him"
And your qualifications for assessing Rankin as a Hack are?
Even presuming you do have the qualifications, I don't know what 'way above him' actually means.
I've seen him describe his enthusiasm for the second and third VU albums and a bewildering fondness for sole Reed tracks like 'street hassle' and even the sonically dismal live album 'Take No Prisoners'. Perhaps his frustrations with the production on the 1st VU album, (and Raw Power and LAMF) have little bearing on whether he's entitled to make these comments and are just his opinion.
In what way is pointing out the terrible production 'way above' anybody.?
I have no training on studio techniques - but I too think bits of 1st VU sound like shit. I differ from Rankin in how important that poor sound impacts on my listening enjoyment, but he isn't wrong in pointing it out, the quality of his best selling fiction isn't relevant.
Oh and why do you think he has 'bose' - that should be Linn surely?
― Sandy Blair, Sunday, 23 December 2007 08:35 (eighteen years ago)
aak a hack - unintentional perhaps, but its got a ring to it!
― Pillbox, Sunday, 23 December 2007 09:02 (eighteen years ago)
Because Ian Rankin is easily quantifiable as a genre writer, it is very easy to see his work as being on a lower tier aesthetically than that of "real artists" like Lou Reed and Andy Warhol. But he really is one of the better contemporary writers & has done just as much to transcend/reinvent detective fiction as the almost-canonized likes of James Ellroy & Elmore Leonard. Though my opinons of VU + Nico couldn't be further from his (it is one of my favorites), I think the whole rationale of his ability to effectively criticize music should extend well past the whole "dancing about architecture" cliche.
― Pillbox, Sunday, 23 December 2007 09:21 (eighteen years ago)
Rankin is a good writer, agreed. Every word of his VU critique is trite bullshit, sadly. It's pretty telling that the second paragraph says precisely nothing about how it sounds.
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:00 (eighteen years ago)
That VU piece is actually among the more truthful ones there. Mocking and dissing Beatles or Rolling Stones is a tired, old cliche. Mocking VU is still needed at times.
― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:25 (eighteen years ago)
I mean, after all there is a reason why those polls are still dominated by The Beatles. They were that good. Sales prove nothing in that respect, but long term popularity does.
― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:49 (eighteen years ago)
G I shouldn't rise to this but shurely the VU have been popular (relatively) for 40 years?
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:50 (eighteen years ago)
there is the hipster factor with VU tho. like lester bangs said, a lot of people own their records but don't actually listen to them.
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:54 (eighteen years ago)
Lester Bangs said a lot of stupid things. Maybe you should switch role models.
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:55 (eighteen years ago)
a lot of people own their records but don't actually listen to them.
Particularly true in the case of "White Light/White Heat". I mean, I cannot imagine anybody actually listens to "Sister Ray".
― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:58 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.eve-online.com/bitmaps/img/weekly/greatestjoke.jpg
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:58 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.burningsuit.co.uk/images/head-in-hands.jpg
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:59 (eighteen years ago)
http://k43.pbase.com/u45/sheila/large/29067605.ManwithheadinhandsBWforweb.jpg
http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/uploaded_images/Head%20in%20Hands.jpg
-- Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:55
one half-remembered quote = "role model"?
oooookaaayyy
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 12:59 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.davebeckerman.com/gallery-blog/image/Head-In-Hands-3.jpg
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:00 (eighteen years ago)
headinhands.jpg = lazy
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:00 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.care.org.uk/Images/content/147/102084.jpg
http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image?provider_id=427&size=550x550_mb&ptp_photo_id=1522491
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:01 (eighteen years ago)
http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Elvis-with-Head-in-Hands-Giclee-Print-C11814819.jpeg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/boysofsheahem/blog%20graphics/HeadInHands.jpg
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:02 (eighteen years ago)
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9587/headinhands500ho1.jpg
http://www.millersrentals.com/tigger_neww.jpg
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:03 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.uberreview.com/wp-content/uploads/rubics-cube-for-the-lazy.jpg
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:06 (eighteen years ago)
LOL YOU SHARE AN OPINION WITH GEIR
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:07 (eighteen years ago)
nahhh...
i quite like VU, but i still think they are one of those bands that gets wheeled out for cool points.
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:08 (eighteen years ago)
Head in hands: the lazy response to lazy opinions.
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:10 (eighteen years ago)
to be fair, you did actually put quite a lot of effort into posting all those pics. sadly enough.
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/strawman.jpg
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)
the scare crow said a lot of stupid things. Maybe you should switch role models.
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:14 (eighteen years ago)
asinine
Main Entry: as·i·nine Listen to the pronunciation of asinine Pronunciation: \ˈa-sə-ˌnīn\ Function: adjective Etymology: Latin asininus, from asinus ass Date: 15th century
1 : extremely or utterly foolish <an asinine excuse> 2 : of, relating to, or resembling an ass synonyms see simple — as·i·nine·ly adverb — as·i·nin·i·ty Listen to the pronunciation of asininity \ˌa-sə-ˈni-nə-tē\ noun
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:16 (eighteen years ago)
Where's the official "ILX" head-in-hands.jpg?
― The Reverend, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:16 (eighteen years ago)
I like where this thread is going, btw.
― The Reverend, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)
pet·ty (pt) adj. pet·ti·er, pet·ti·est 1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance. 2. Marked by narrowness of mind, ideas, or views. 3. Marked by meanness or lack of generosity, especially in trifling matters. 4. Secondary in importance or rank; subordinate. See Synonyms at trivial. 5. Law Variant of petit.
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)
I was keeping the official jpg in the clip.
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)
This hapless cock doesn't deserve the OG head in hands.
― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:18 (eighteen years ago)
swearing now, eh?
― pc user, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:19 (eighteen years ago)
http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/uploaded_images/RoosterNHRedOnSnowDSCF1642-714219.jpg
― The Reverend, Sunday, 23 December 2007 13:45 (eighteen years ago)