Why I don't "get" Chic

dud. you're wrong, bro.

Anything more insightful?

they have their moments but they do get more love than they deserve around these parts.

(their 12"s were fucking insane but their albums were the 12"s plus a lot of filler, disco ballads=worst music evah)

got a point about the blankness/unbelievability of the singers. i kinda never thought the singers themselves were having that much of a good time in Good Times. ive never thought about it enough for it to detract from the song though, i probably couldnt imagine it any other way

then again their singles for other artists(thinking diana ross and Norma Jean Wright) were dynamite, but their work for Sisters Sledge was garbage. They were hit and miss. I think Patrick Adams deserves more love than these guys.

I completely forgot about Sister Sledge as I was writing that. I probably do like at least the obvious singles (which are all I've heard) more than Diana/Chic or Chic proper.

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? "Lost in Music" wants to kick you in your face, display name.

(their 12"s were fucking insane but their albums were the 12"s plus a lot of filler, disco ballads=worst music evah)

RONG.

There isn't a bad track on C'est Chic and "At last I am free" is stellar.

Nile Rogers and Bernard Edwards are horrible songwriters is probably the most wtf thing I've read in my life.

SISTER SLEDGE STUFF IS SO CLASSIC WTF!!!!111111111

"Sao Paulo" is an awesome track, and proof that you can't diss their ballads outright. there are some others that are good, just can't think of them off the top of my head.

The other thing that was weird about Chic was that they straddled the line between being good underground disco and being pop and they handled it better than anyone else at their level of commercial success.

The one thing I don't like about them is that they personify the materialist individual post-civil rights black vibe that fucked up a lot of music in the late 70's early 80's. I think the greatest black records always have an ability to put a sense of community in the grooves of a record, and that vibe isn't in their records. When I listen to Hi Tech Jazz by UR I feel like the message of the song is to tell people to keep their chin up and down let things beat them down. I don't get that feeling from Chic, I get more of a feeling of "hey we have mad coke and good shoes and if you have money and clothes you can party with us too..."

They are great songs, the 12"s anyway, but they never really touch me deeply.

<i>there are some others that are good, just can't think of them off the top of my head.</i>

= my point exactly. They also had help on Sao Paulo, that wasn't a bernard/edwards only track IIRC.

I am going to dig their records out of the crates and listen to them this afternoon.

i kinda never thought the singers themselves were having that much of a good time in Good Times.

Kinda thought that was the point; the lyric sound much more like the recitation of a dutiful credo than a libidinous celebration - try and imagine Donald Fagen singing it maybe?

Chic have better melodies and singing than Ne-Yo (who I like.) So yeah, I'm stumped by this claim.
What did they make, five albums? Which, as far as I can tell, were as consistently tuneful as pretty much anyone else from their era (which was as tuneful as any era I can think of). (And personally, I prefer the Chic LPs to what might be termed less anonymously sung albums they produced by Diana and Sister Sledge. But then, anonymous singing is part of what made so much disco good. It's the Loleatta Holler-away divas that I didn't get. And it's certainly not like Chic's singers were stiff or lifeless -- to me, they sound completely joyful.)

despite the fact the above two posts are in sort of oppposition, i can kinda get with both

for good times, i think the singing is right for the song. i see what you mean about fagen, but i just kind of think of the singing as kind of cokey and distanced. and thats just fine with me, because as chuck says, disco is good when its cokey and distanced, which is a lot of the time

Alright, I'll go for "At Last I Am Free"

The other thing that was weird about Chic was that they straddled the line between being good underground disco and being pop and they handled it better than anyone else at their level of commercial success.

Yeah, this is probably true. There's a lot of subtext around Chic, but that's all it is, subtext.

The one thing I don't like about them is that they personify the materialist individual post-civil rights black vibe that fucked up a lot of music in the late 70's early 80's. I think the greatest black records always have an ability to put a sense of community in the grooves of a record, and that vibe isn't in their records.

I dunno about this. I'm a comfortably middle-class black American striver type, so in theory this should appeal to my sensibilities.

download one "I Loved You More" to blow theory out of water

good times isn't full of a 'sense of community'???

this thread has lots of RONG

xp(At the very least, the vocals were functional, in the tradition of lots of Eurodisco. I can't think of an instance where I thought they got in the way. And I pretty much have an aversion to dead-in-the-water ice-queen singing -- one reason I don't get Cassie, who strikes me as completely restrained in comparison.)(With maybe Grace Jones, I'd get the "lifeless" claim. Or Amanda Lear, say. But even they had moments. Hell, even industrial dance twits on Wax Trax had moments. But compared to Chic, they were comatose.) (So now I'm curious what kind of disco vocals The Reverend does like. Which isn't to suggest that Chic were among the genre's best vocalists -- they just never bugged me, is all.)

thread is so Up. Side. Down. that i'm thinking 'xhuxk otm'

Chic have better melodies and singing than Ne-Yo (who I like.) So yeah, I'm stumped by this claim.
What did they make, five albums? Which, as far as I can tell, were as consistently tuneful as pretty much anyone else from their era (which was as tuneful as any era I can think of). (And personally, I prefer the Chic LPs to what might be termed less anonymously sung albums they produced by Diana and Sister Sledge. But then, anonymous singing is part of what made so much disco good. It's the Loleatta Holler-away divas that I didn't get. And it's certainly not like Chic's singers were stiff or lifeless -- to me, they sound completely joyful.)

The singing is better than Ne-Yo, but less distinctive...? Let me work on that. I guess I want personality out of my singers moreso than chops. But the Ne-Yo aside really wasn't trying to compare him to Chic at all, I was just tying in something else me & R1ckey had been talking about.

As far as divas go, it kind of depends on what kind of diva we're talking about. I really don't like the kind of camped-up OTT divas that show up on a lot of disco/house/disco records, but give me a good Southern soul-shouter any day the week and I'm in bliss.

Dance, Dance, Dance by Marta Acuna destroys the entire chic cannon in less that four minutes.

That Nicky Siano Gallery comp has a lot of stuff like that, I prefer that stuff as well.

Xhuxk, I guess I very much prefer male vocals on my disco records, though there's something else, I need to get at, that I just can't place. I need to get this sorted out in my brain. I guess I don't really like the kind of clear, textureless voices that dominate Chic records.

Matos, I would if I could, but its not really a possibility right now.

The "functional", that's what bugs me. I want my music to have vocals that mean something or keep the vocals completely out of the way.

I said their vocals were less distinctive than Diana Ross's. Not convinced they were less distinctive than Ne-Yo's (much less that they communicate less of a "personality" than him. What's his personality again, except a kid who sings pretty high notes like Michael Jackson but not nearly as good as Michael Jackson? I'm not making fun of him; again, I like Ne-Yo fine. Just not sure in what way he's distinctive.)

It wasn't me who called Eurodisco vocals detached or cokey, either. (They can be, and often when they are, I tend not like them. Chic's have never particularly hit me that way. And they definitely sang disco better than Johnny Taylor [whose Southern soul stuff I love] did whilst moving it in moving it out disco lady , so I don't really buy that comparison, either. (I love Southern soul, but did much of it cross over to being great disco? I guess Betty Wright did okay -- like, in "No Pain No Gain," I guess. Some ZZ Hill I've got flirts a little with disco, I suppose. But in general, I'm not sure who the Reverend is referring to here. I'm probably forgetting obvious examples. Christgau compared the Tramps to Wilson Picket once, I guess.)

rev are you much of a dancer

Did Lee Dorsey's Night People have much disco in it? I used to have copy; stupidly got rid of it. Came out in '78 or '79, and Christgau loved it.

Guilty as charged.

I don't know most of this stuff you refer to, Xhuxk (no disco expert am I), the Tramps are a-okay with me.

I guess I should mention that I tend to like post-1980 disco much more than pre-1980 disco, I'm not sure what that affects, but it certainly affects something.

The handclap breakdown on "My Feet Keep Dancing" fucking slays.

"Chip Off the Old Block" is way better than I remember it being.

haha Rev IS very much a dancer as it happens

I would love to read this whole thread and try to tackle this intellectually, but I fear Chic at their very best just isn't something you can persuade someone to appreciate with logical arguments. If you've heard the self-titled album or "Risque" or prime Sister Sledge (i.e. "Love Somebody Today" album) and you aren't convinced, well...just forget it.

Preferring male vocals on disco records, though...dude, that's just weird. I can understand not liking the "camped up divas" but Chic were never like that. They had class. They were restrained, elegant, subtle, tasteful. Even if their records did start to get crap after a certain point.

in that case, if yr genuinely interested in 'getting' chic i think its prob a matter of getting the context??? I have no idea really, chic is one of those groups that just seems so immediately great and compulsively danceable to me, there's not much intellectualizing going on in my initial reactions to it - the grooves are impeccably tight. If you listen to/dance to a lot of late 70s disco it might give you an idea of in what context chic's stuff sounds special, how tight and near-perfect their rhythm section was in contrast with lots of other stuff from the period.

The other thing is that, i assume yr downgrading the qual. of the 'songwriting' in the sense that they were definitely more about creating dance grooves than writing songs with more noticeable structure ... it was about keeping people going on the dancefloor, the disco motorik etc. ... and i think xhuxk is right for that reason, that the anonymity of the vox are an appealing factor rather than drawback; the idea is less that yr identifying a singer's 'personality' and more that yr identifying with the singer in the moment, as u dance to it

They were restrained, elegant, subtle, tasteful.

-- Bimble, Sunday, July 1, 2007 7:24 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

way to make them sound boring

they could write a big cheesy hook like the best of them

when i say 'noticeable structure' i don't mean that their songs didnt have structure, but that the structure doesnt stand out, is subservient to the groove/mood/atmosphere

What? Rev likes part of "My Feet Keep Dancing"? Ahoy, all is not lost!

xpost

Deej, it's a subjective matter. What is boring for you might actually attract others. Personally I like music that isn't in my face and over the top.

and more that yr identifying with the singer in the moment, as u dance to it

and on this point this is why i dont get display name's thing about 'not putting community in the grooves' - a lot of the big chic hooks sound totally sing-a-long, lots of overdubbed vocals yelling 'good times!'

"Everybody Dance"! How much more communal can u get

"are you much of a dancer" = last refuge of scoundrels

Actually, Real People and Take It Off are both pretty great albums, so I don't know at what point Chic are supposed to have "gotten crap."*

But yeah -- only liking male disco vocals...wow, I've never heard that one before. Ever. If there was any genre where women singers dominated, disco (along with girl group, freestyle, etc) was, well, one of them. Rev, do you like Donna Summer??

* -- maybe with Tongue in Chic and Believer, which I'd forgotten ever existed (assumming I ever heard them in the first place):

http://robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=chic

(Xgau is wrong about the first two albums, by the way -- especially the second, which is their best.)

even the snares on 'le freak' are a bunch of overdubbed handclaps, its a party in yr stereo

"are you much of a dancer" = last refuge of scoundrels

-- askance johnson, Sunday, July 1, 2007 7:30 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

it wasn't a criticism, it was an honest question that led to further elucidation of the appeal

The 'faceless vocals' thing seems so obvious to me, like, this is about 'finding a spot out on the floor,' not doing teenpop-thread-style psychological analysis of the singer

sorry if that came across as bitter

I think the greatest black records always have an ability to put a sense of community in the grooves of a record, and that vibe isn't in their records.

That's a strong claim - I can straight away think of great black records for which it isn't true - 'You don't Know me?' - and white records for which it is true ..... I think part of what was great about Chic was that they refused to sit still and let 'blackness' be thrust upon them.

I didn't say Chic had camped-up divas, I've been arguing much the opposite. A middle ground would be more to my taste.

Deej, I guess maybe part of my problem here is that I don't really like to dance to disco. I'm a very drum-driven dancer, so dancing to a straight 4/4 isn't nearly as fun for my as dancing to fuck/hiphop/latin/electro or whatever with more syncopated drumbeats. Though maybe this is wrong, because I don't mind dancing to house at all.

The songwriting thing, I'm kind of all or nothing about. I want my disco either very song-oriented or completely beat-driven, and Chic only really go halfway in either direction.

(ahhhhh like 80 xposts)

fuck = funk, haha

I realize me != Display Name, but I did say in the initial post they have a way with a hook.

The songwriting thing, I'm kind of all or nothing about. I want my disco either very song-oriented or completely beat-driven, and Chic only really go halfway in either direction.

+

I don't really like to dance to disco

=

why [rev doesn't] "get" Chic

is that unfair to say?

savoir faire is a great ballad btw

Actually I think you're right, there deej.

Bernard used to get really pissed off when journalists expected that the only kind of music they liked was disco.

Right about why Rev doesn't like Chic I mean. xpost

it seems like rev is comparing the extremes of 'beat driven' on one side (maybe house?) vs. 'song driven' on the other (pre-disco R&B?) and disco is in some reductive ways a literal midpoint, so i think chic aren't all that really go halfway; it probably explains his distaste for dancing to 70s disco on the whole

Xhuxh, I don't know Donna beyond the obvious five songs that everyone knows. I love "Love To Love You" and "I Feel Love", and have no use for "Bad Girls"/"Hot Stuff"/"She Works Hard For the Money" although, I've never listened to any of the latter that closely.

bad girls is gangster

Why wasn't this thread just called "Why I don't 'get' disco", then?

Because we weren't talking about disco in general, we were talking about Chic in particular.

The songwriting thing, I'm kind of all or nothing about. I want my disco either very song-oriented or completely beat-driven, and Chic only really go halfway in either direction.

+

I don't really like to dance to disco

=

why [rev doesn't] "get" Chic

-- deej, Sunday, July 1, 2007 12:37 PM (Sunday, July 1, 2007 12:37 PM) Bookmark Link

is that unfair to say?

-- deej, Sunday, July 1, 2007 12:37 PM (Sunday, July 1, 2007 12:37 PM) Bookmark Link

That is quite fair. And the house/pre-disco R&B thing is very true (at least in my case), although both of those extremes certainly exist within 70's disco.

if rev is actually interested in dancing to chic, he might listen to 'i want your love' and check out the degree to which yr actually dancing to the (quite active) bassline rather than the 4/4 groove...

rather than the 4/4 drums i should say...bassline is a concrete part of the groove
important to delineate between 'beat' and 'groove'

I guess "pre-disco" is a bit of a red herring, though. Post-disco R&B, too, if not moreso.

xp, haha I'm laying in bed with my laptop right now. No dancing will occur at this moment.

about "Good Times" and communal feeling= Rodgers has talked about Good Times a lot, and when it comes down to it, the song is more about feeling good amidst all the shit of the world (including the clubs where Chic got tons of play), amidst a fatalistic feeling of dread. this isn't necessarily a happy communal feeling, but one that is oft-felt and not as subtly pointed-at as in Good Times...

and not-so-subtly pointed-at, really.

I'm laying in bed with my laptop right now

=

Why [the rev doesn't] "get" Chic

jk

haha

Bouncing back to a couple things I missed...

xhuxk, I didn't say I "only" like male disco vocals, I just said I probably prefer them.

That's a strong claim - I can straight away think of great black records for which it isn't true - 'You don't Know me?' - and white records for which it is true ..... I think part of what was great about Chic was that they refused to sit still and let 'blackness' be thrust upon them.

I guess the "not letting 'blackness' be thrust upon them kind of plays into how Chic's records don't feel very specifically black to me, which isn't to say they don't sound black, just not specifically black. Note, this is not a criticism, just a tangent that I find interesting right this second.

It's a Sunday. Saturdays are for dancing; Sundays are for lying in bed at 1 o'clock. So Sez I.

so much geirbait

i think it's interesting that a lot of the cover art and style of chic was an emulation of roxy music's aesthetic, but at the same time there is this rootedness.

didn't luther vandross sing on a lot of chic records?

Sundays are for lying in bed at 1 o'clock. So Sez I.

Say, what kind of reverend are you?

xpost obv.

about "Good Times" and communal feeling= Rodgers has talked about Good Times a lot, and when it comes down to it, the song is more about feeling good amidst all the shit of the world (including the clubs where Chic got tons of play), amidst a fatalistic feeling of dread. this isn't necessarily a happy communal feeling, but one that is oft-felt and not as subtly pointed-at as in Good Times...

It isn't about the lyrics, it is more about the sonics of the record. I am going through their catalogue and it just seems so joyless and dry for the most part(except the singles). It is boring and restrained(elegant...), I just wish they would cut loose and really make their records sound like a party. I don't have the most extensive disco collection, but I have so much other stuff that just shits all over these records. Everything is really clean and well recorded, the playing is tight, the mixes are really tasteful...it is the sonic equivalent of living in the burbs. It's order and professionalism feels claustrophobic.

didn't luther vandross sing on a lot of chic records?

Ha! I've started a thread on Chic before, but can't find it. It was something to the effect of "Who sings the male leads on Chic records". That question got answered there. I think it was said that he sang on some of the later stuff.

IIRC, Vandross just sang on the first album or two. he DID sing on Change's early records too, which were ace carbon-copy Chic. Rev, are you familiar with Change's "Paradise"? I'm curious what you'd think of it.

Everything is really clean and well recorded, the playing is tight, the mixes are really tasteful

in other words, they engineered those records so they would sound amazing on any speaker system at any party, thus doing their jobs right.

this thread has lots of RONG

-- deej, Sunday, 1 July 2007 18:54 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

Say, what kind of reverend are you?

A self-proclaimed one. : D

re "Paradise": Oh, yeah. I've only listened a couple times, but I seem to remember liking it pretty well. Let me dig out my Levan comp...

"but I have so much other stuff that just shits all over these records"

same time period or later?

"it is the sonic equivalent of living in the burbs."

i'd buy that it's escapist, but that's kind of preposterous.

The escapist criticism re: "Good Times" seems kind of ridiculous, because that's the entire point of the song, escapism as commentary on escapism.

"Paradise" has great bridges, which means it is automatically my friend.

I mean burbs as in clean, organized, sanitary, hidden feelings... not escapist.

display name's argument seems to reduce to 'these records are joyless and dry because i find their attempts at joyfulness unconvincing,' which isn't really an insight in and of itself. Which is why i think a lot of folks are finding it frustrating and RONG. Why is their celebratory-ness unconvincing to you? Because i think we can all agree that they are, at the least, AIMING for joyfulness

The Dianna Ross/Chic stuff is in my opinion some of the best stuff disco produced. I like it more than say, I Feel Love or anything Italo disco produced. It's so off kilter and funky and tight. The intro alone to "I'm coming out" has the coolest drum beat I have ever heard.

That said, besides the singles (and maybe including the singles) I've been having a hard time getting into Chic's own albums.

"hidden feelings" means . . . ?

chic hid their bdsm fetishes via clean, tight grooves

"Paradise" has great bridges, which means it is automatically my friend.

'Your Move' from the paradise LP has the best Nile Rodgers riff not played by Nile evah

XP

'cept it's called miracles

"the suburbs" = lamest straw man evah, btw

listening to 'my feet keep dancing' right now and thinking how NEXT LEVEL the groove on this is, the short, rapid guitar bursts

I know nothing about italo, but I kind of get the impression, I'd dig it more than Chic-style NY disco. (Closer to house and electro?)

Actually, now that I have it on, I have to say I've probably gotten more out of the 2-disc Levan comp than the 2-disc Chic greatest. (Although, still NY disco, obv.)

then of course, the weirdo tap dancing section. risque is a great record xp

The one thing I don't like about them is that they personify the materialist individual post-civil rights black vibe that fucked up a lot of music in the late 70's early 80's. I think the greatest black records always have an ability to put a sense of community in the grooves of a record, and that vibe isn't in their records. When I listen to Hi Tech Jazz by UR I feel like the message of the song is to tell people to keep their chin up and down let things beat them down. I don't get that feeling from Chic, I get more of a feeling of "hey we have mad coke and good shoes and if you have money and clothes you can party with us too..."

This is maybe the most infuriating thing I've read on ILM.

I can't believe I've been out being, you know, social instead of staying home and fighting with The Reverend.

Writing objectively about Chic is weird for me since the second volume of the Rhino comp issued in 1992 or 1993 pretty much changed my life (so did reading Christgau's review of said comp). More than the hits disc, this collection of non-hits, album tracks, and soundtrack discards delineate for me Chic's greatness. This is where you really sense the dialectics and dynamics underpinning their work -- in other words, this is where the extravagant claims made on their behalf are manifested.

So many highlights on that comp. The only song more devastatingly precise than the pinched, sour "Real People" about how partying hollows you out is Donna Summer's "Sunset People"; and "When You Love Someone" does this for unqualified euphoria. They recorded great stuff all the way through 1983's Believer, which uses syndrums and keyboards and those massed vocals to evoke what "community" might have sounded like had the promises of disco been fulfilled in the eighties: before the cities collapsed, before AIDS, before Reagan.

Thus, this claim: The one thing I don't like about them is that they personify the materialist individual post-civil rights black vibe that fucked up a lot of music in the late 70's early 80's. I think the greatest black records always have an ability to put a sense of community in the grooves of a record, and that vibe isn't in their records is the most boneheaded I've read here in days..

alfred dan otm

Aha! I figured out something. The Chic records don't really have any percussion other than Tony's trap set. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Right now, I'm listening to "Weekend" by Phreek on the Levan comp. It has bongos and agogo bells going all over the place in between the beats and THAT is what gets me dancing.

Change's early records too, which were ace carbon-copy Chic.

Change are more Chic + Eurodisco (or proto-Italodisco, when you get down to it) to my ears, not really carbon copies per se: They sound notably more electronic than Chic (and people who crazily dismiss Chic as cleaned-up professional suburban orderliness* would hate Change even more, I bet.)

(*And again, cleaned-up professional suburban orderliness compared to what? Johnny Guitar Watson's blues-funk stodge [which can be okay] or something? I don't get what they're being set up against here. Though way back in college I thought disco sounded antiseptic compared to hard funk, and I guess there's people that might still think that way.) (In fact, objections to it being watered-down proto-yuppie music were one of the bases for the "disco sucks" movement, way back then. It wasn't "real" or "gritty" like rock music. You had to dress up like John Travolta and couldn't wear blue jeans and all that crap. But all I know is, when I interviewed Angus Young a few years ago, he started talking about what a great r&b band Chic was, so it didn't bother him. And AC/DC are as gritty as you can get.)

Also, it gets all loose and jammy for the whole second half and Chic never does that they stay locked in the whole way. Variation in groove gets me dancing more than tightness.

that's basically true, yeah, though Thompson is a monster drummer (was mooted to replace Bonzo in the Zep reunion that never really happened aside from Live Aid). but for your multipercussive needs Chic records are probably not going to absolutely do it.

Reverend, the way Rodgers/Edwards mixed strings and Thompson's drums negate the need for extra percussion! Listen to "My Feet Keep Dancing" again! Their ethos is crafting this huge drama using minimalist ends.

(double xpost) (xpost!)

I wouldn't consider Chic minimalist. And I don't dance to strings, I dance to percussion.

Reverend, clearly you need to hear their later hits, especially the Take It Off-.Tongue in Chic-era stuff, which is LOTS looser

try "Hangin'," Rev.

that's my whole point! Chic strings ARE percussive!

(double xpost to Reverend)

u don't dance to strings!!! no wonder you don't dance to disco

savoir faire is a great ballad btw

-- deej, Sunday, 1 July 2007 19:38 (39 minutes ago) Link

I just want to say that this is one of the greatest jams of all time, made better when slowed down so the strings sound like molasses. Also has one of the bitchingest jazzy guitar solos.

ahhhh that drum fill in 'feet keep dancing', so unexpected

I was being obtuse.

(re: strings)

I should listen to the second disc I never pull out of the Chic set, but the Levan comp is really doing it for me at this moment, so it's going to stay on.

Seriously, this fucking condescending idea that the only authentic expression of the black community is to say "woe is me, it's hard being black" is simply unforgivable.

It's hard out here for a...no, never mind.

"but I have so much other stuff that just shits all over these records"

same time period or later?

Before, during, and after. There were a lot of disco records that weren't exclusively coke and distance. There is a lot of sweaty music that isn't clean as clean and slick. I am just going to make a mix and post it to this thread in a couple of hours.

"Hidden feelings" means that everything is restrained, there are never moments of joy so intense it almost feels dangerous. Sry if you don't like the metaphor, but it seem apt to me. I live in a moderately bad area and I find being in big box mini-malls in the Austin burbs infinitely more disturbing than walking around my neighborhood. Everything is clean, and in it's place and under control. The under control part is what scares me... These records bother me for the same reason, everything is just a little to perfect and silky, yet there is a really weird disturbing undercurrent to it all.

Thus, this claim: The one thing I don't like about them is that they personify the materialist individual post-civil rights black vibe that fucked up a lot of music in the late 70's early 80's. I think the greatest black records always have an ability to put a sense of community in the grooves of a record, and that vibe isn't in their records is the most boneheaded I've read here in days..

You should read this:

Peter Shapiro's Turn the Beat Around

You will see what I am getting at. It isn't as boneheaded as you think. Find the chapter on MFSB and the split between community oriented danceable rnb/funk vs "sophisticated" black music.

Seriously, this fucking condescending idea that the only authentic expression of the black community is to say "woe is me, it's hard being black" is simply unforgivable.

I don't think I ever said that the ONLY AUTHENTIC EXPRESSION of TEH BLACKS is poor me. I said that I THINK the best feeling you can put on a record is one where you feel like you are part of something. If there is something I struggle with in music, it is how do you make a person feel involved and spoken WITH in a recording on a nonverbal, emotional level. It is extremely hard, and it you can do it you have a very special talent. I think Mike Banks is a GENIUS because he can do that (re HI-Tech Jazz) and there is nothing condescending about my appreciation of his talent. Frankly, I look _up_ to him.

Chic records don't do that for me.

And also the expression isn't poor me, it's:

RESPECT ME BECAUSE I AM SOMEBODY!

"Hidden feelings" means that everything is restrained, there are never moments of joy so intense it almost feels dangerous.

But "dangerous" moments of joy often hide other feelings! That's what's going on "Good Times," "My Feet Keep Dancing," and at least a dozen Chic numbers.

And also the expression isn't poor me, it's:

RESPECT ME BECAUSE I AM SOMEBODY!

i.e. "poor me"

Stuart Smalley to thread.

there are never moments of joy so intense it almost feels dangerous.

this is unbelievably wrong

When I listen to Hi Tech Jazz by UR I feel like the message of the song is to tell people to keep their chin up and down let things beat them down.

"don't let the man hold you down, black people" = "sense of community"

I don't get that feeling from Chic, I get more of a feeling of "hey we have mad coke and good shoes and if you have money and clothes you can party with us too..."

"I am having a lot of fun, wow" = "no sense of community"

The inference is crystal-clear; if that's not what you meant to say, you should have thought before writing.

i mean if yr looking for 'dangerous' music surely you shouldn't be listening to 30 year old soul records

excommunicate the reverend

The inference is crystal-clear; if that's not what you meant to say, you should have thought before writing

I think that that is a false binary. I don't think fun black music is anti-communal. James Brown can be both.
If my writing isn't clear, I apologize. I don't think that black music is only good when it expresses suffering.

there are never moments of joy so intense it almost feels dangerous.

When you grow up in an environment where everything and everyone around you reinforces a sentiment that you aren't supposed to express feelings, expression does feel dangerous.

I think "Good Times" is the greatest single of the '70s, caps it off pretty nicely. To my ears, it goes well beyond Roxy Music or Bowie or any of those other supposedly alienated artistes, into the realm of the ominous and the uncanny--the piano part alone in that record can give you serious pause, with its hint of gospel. Real People says more to me about what the '80s (and beyond to this moment) were gonna do to people, altho it's obviously situated in a black middle-class setting. That record mocks the pretensions of all of us who aspire to "elegance" without doing the work and makes fools of the uppity folks who have forgotten their common humanity. In my opinion, that record makes all that real explicit, and is their best record, altho I think that their first couple records are indeed not as bad as Xgau says (as Xhuxk points out above). Real People scans funny on purpose, like "Chip Off the Old Block" is about being a robot anyway so it's stiff. And even the lesser stuff on Risque works in that manner, it's all so self-mocking. Take It Off is a record I've listened to since it came out and I've never gotten tired of it. I think Rodgers and Edwards were grappling with some kind of '60s backwash that had gotten toxic and that they saw not from a privileged perspective but from the cheap(er) seats, just like any other rockers, and they were more rockers than anything else, they say so themselves, and were coming at the whole thing from that viewpoint. There's very little I've ever listened to I find more satisfying than Chic--even the crap they did, the minor stuff for Fonzie Thornton and Debbie Harry and not-so-minor Sheila B. Devotion, is pretty great for-hire, and they always seemed smarter than the artists who hired 'em. I mean christ, I couldn't listent to "Let's Dance" without laughing, but when Chic sing "Making love and dance was all we do" on Take It Off, you can tell they're feeling something right there.

Okay now I'm listening to the album Dianna and am A) Trying really hard to type this and not just stop and dance and B) Thinking really hard about how it would be possible to not like this.

I can't imagine a better conclusion, Edd.

Take It Off is a record I've listened to since it came out and I've never gotten tired of it.

me too and everything else edd said too -- the most eloquent defense of chic if any was required. at least something good comes out of this wretched thread.

Oh, do fuck off. This thread is excellent. Maybe we should avoid discussing music here because it might upset your delicate sensibilities.

Real People says more to me about what the '80s (and beyond to this moment) were gonna do to people, altho it's obviously situated in a black middle-class setting. That record mocks the pretensions of all of us who aspire to "elegance" without doing the work and makes fools of the uppity folks who have forgotten their common humanity

And a perfect followup to their Diana Ross collab! Yet another example of how they were smarter than the artists who hired them. I mean, their songs for Diana go a long way towards humanizing the pretensions of this uppity woman. It's a great record for being disorientating -- "I'm Comin' Out" gratifies her careerism, "Tenderness" provides her with a nifty chorus tagline that mocks the singer even as she's singing it, etc.

*for being so disorientating

Also: love the echo in which her chorus vocals are swathed on "Have Fun (Again)." It's so obvious that SHE'S not.

"Before, during, and after. There were a lot of disco records that weren't exclusively coke and distance. There is a lot of sweaty music that isn't clean as clean and slick."

ok, but underneath the clean and slick surface there's a lot going on with chic: control, orthodoxy, it's all bullshit ripe for subversion. i don't think the chic guys would necessarily disagree with some of yr points except maybe they preferred a different means of expressing them.

There were a lot of disco records that weren't exclusively coke and distance.

for ex., chic

Rodgers was a subsection leader of the lower Manhattan Black Panther party. Also by all accounts it wasn't until a half-dozen Chic albums had been released, circa '81, that coke took a hold on them for a while.

"them" = Chic? Chic albums? Black Panthers?

sorry, sorry, i am missing something. why does a "clean" sound denote "clean" politics or sexuality or whateverthefuck. this is batshit bad metaphor school 101.

Chic -are you serious?

Display Name, what I don't get about your rec of the Shapiro book is that while Shapiro does bring the MFSB vs. slick black-oriented disco, he also pretty much praises Chic as being the best American disco group ever.

It is also worth mentioning w/ regards to "community," black panther arguments, etc.: Uh, Rodgers and Edwards were total freaks of the black community by the time they started Chic. You know that. So it makes sense that their sound is not as rooted in the r&b, Philly International style sound.

Hi Dere, in particular, is making me think about the aspirational stuff at the top levels of the Chic image. The message is obviously "Y'know, you could have this, too -- why not?" In my junior and senior years of high school ('79-'81), lots of black guys in the school read GQ and played chess at lunch, assuming that it all belonged to them, too. And it did; I don't remember anybody ever commenting on it. Chic obviously gave voice to the mindset, and perhaps influenced it, too.

And I still don't know how to play chess.

I was serious, blunt. Other than a passing remark Rodgers about his drug intake whilst recording Bowie's Black Tie White Noise, I've no idea what went up his/their nose.

For real, Rickey? I'll have to show you how to play chess next time we meet. : D

But maybe that explains why my dad, who went to high school in the mid-late 70s is such a chess nut and a snappy dresser? haha

While I disagree, I can sort of empathize with where The Reverend is coming from. While I like Chic, Inc. plenty ("Chic Cheer," which became something even better for Faith Evans), they've never been as high in the disco pantheon as most rate them. Even limiting it down to elegant, classy lite-R&B, I admit to preferring Patrice Rushen and Ashford & Simpson.

Maybe the problem is their influence was so widespread that now they sound sort of generic.

That's completely possible.

Haha, Reverend! (On yr dad, too.) Yeah, I could definitely use some help.

haha after Rev shows Rickey how to play chess he can kick my ass at it since I am chess player el sucko numero uno

Display, I hope you take Edd's lovely words to heart and realize that Chic were the antithesis of "hey we have mad coke and good shoes and if you have money and clothes you can party with us too..." Or if they did indeed espouse the latter idea, then they always placed it in dialectical tension with some sort of comedown, hangover, or critique.

But I think the root of your Chic problems are here:

"I am going through their catalogue and it just seems so joyless and dry for the most part(except the singles). It is boring and restrained(elegant...), I just wish they would cut loose and really make their records sound like a party"

If you keep listening for a party, then you're never going to get Chic (which is NOT to say that a party is never going on). "Restrained" and "dry" (I'd say "tart") are OTM, after all. In this, Chic are like Pet Shop Boys. You don't listen to PSB for slammin' house. If you do, you're going to miss, say, the sadness in "I Want A Dog." Similarly, if you want cutting loose, you're not going to hear how "Real People says more to (Edd but me too) about what the '80s (and beyond to this moment) were gonna do to people." So try listening in another context. Then maybe you'll hear that "restrained" and "dry" and "tart" and "elegant" and "the burbs" do not preclude kineticism, blood, fire, anger, tears, even parties.

The only thing I'd add to Edd's comments is that it's difficult not to see a devastating premonition of the AIDS scourge in "I've Got Protection" ("from your infection").

Finally, for a sense of community in the grooves, check out the queens practicing to "Chic Cheer" in Wigstock.

Rev, I too am baffled by the male disco vocalists comment. Which ones do you like? And for song form, try the song "Real People."

And to both Rev and Display, you've been taking some pretty harsh criticisms with restraint and elegance (Rev even fired off a tart "do fuck off") so Chic love should come naturally to you.

Now for some statistics:

Greatest song of all-time: "My Feet Keep Dancing"

Most kinetic music moment of all-time: the first drum peal after the reentry of the chorus (at 5:03 on the mp3 I'm listening to now)

Chorus that could go on forever without diminishing its mastery: "Dancing Dancing My Feet Keep Dancing Dancing Dancing My Feet Keep Dancing Dancing My Feet Keep Dancing Dancing Dancing"

Greatest Chic production: Sister Sledge: "Lost in Music"

Second greatest single of the 1970s: Sister Sledge: "Lost in Music"

Greatest disco single of all-time: Sister Sledge: "Lost in Music"

One of the greatest ballads of all-time: "When You Love Someone"

Greatest group of the 1970s: Steely Dan (if only because Chic straddled the 1980s so beautifully)

Wow, that was great, Kevin.

The only thing I'll add, after an evening, inspired by this thread, of listening to nothing but Chic and Chic Organization productions: Let's Dance seems so thin, in large part because the tensions between Rodgers/Edwards and Diana's starpower produced more interesting music. You EXPECT Bowie, even more than Diana, to understand how quickly glamour turns to seed; you expect his songs to comment on and mourn the half-life of the poseur. Instead, he used Nile in the same hamfisted way as Thompson Twins and Jeff Beck, in the same way as Chic's most uncomprehending fans saw Rodgers: Nile was there to add a sliver of funk to inert songs.

in other words, Bowie could have done more with "Backfired" than Debbie Harry.

Just out of curiosity, what else is in your 70's disco top 10, kevin?

http://bozelkablog.blogspot.com/2005/09/fave-100-singles-of-1970s.html

here's where i want to disagree mildly with you kevin: it is the 1984 version of Lost in Music-- the Edwards & Rodger's remix-- that is the more superior version. lusher and more jammin.

"Actually, now that I have it on, I have to say I've probably gotten more out of the 2-disc Levan comp than the 2-disc Chic greatest. (Although, still NY disco, obv.)"

Just wanted to say that this doesn't seem like that damning a statement, that Levan comp is hard to beat.

I was going to start talking about why Chic's negotiation between celebration and tension is U&K but it's the same old dialectical blah blah from me and you've all done marvellous jobs on this thread, well done.

yeah, this thread made me dig out all my singles.

right now i'm all about how ridiculous "funny bone" is.

i kind of totally disagree with kevin about 'restrained' still, i think 'tight' is a much better way to describe it. The opposite of sloppy. But i don't think that translates to restrained at all - the celebration in so much of their work sounds like a wholly exuberant blast of energy...the only kind of 'restraint' is in the sense that the groove is locked on.

I also still disagree with the idea that:

Maybe the problem is their influence was so widespread that now they sound sort of generic.

because their productions seem so utterly distinctive! Generic is the last thing i would call a song like (and i hate to use this example again but its the one i've been playing over and over today) "my feet keep dancing" - so many of their best songs seem like an exercise in originality/creativity, an attempt to take a standard soul-disco formula and make it interesting, while keeping the same communal vibe and incredibly lockstep-tight dance grooves. You can here them experimenting w/ hemiolas and other rhythmic tricks, minimalism, playing the groove of the guitar-bass-drums off the strings-horns-lushness, bells and handclaps, using a small palette of instruments and styles (how many times did you ever hear nile rodgers guitar doing the 'nile rodgers trick') but somehow making it all sound v. v. different from song to song...everything in their catalogue sounds so distinct to me

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/vol.80/video/x29mr2_chic-my-feet-keep-dancing-funk?from=rss

('feet' is a bad example of non-restraint bcuz the whole point of that song is almost fascistic constraints of that one rhythmic figure, but the idea is one big build in energy that only peaks after the break ... really wish they weren't cut off early in that soul train clip!

)

the 1984 version of Lost in Music-- the Edwards & Rodger's remix-- that is the more superior version.

^^^ agree with this!

i get that cold 'coke and distance' vibe from 'good times' a bit but that doesn't necessarily count against it (for me anyway). i don't really know the chic catalogue well enough to dip into this argument any further though.

Fathers And Sons Records in conjunction with Starbucks/Hear Music, Wal-Mart, Hummer and the Pflugerville Council For Creative Excellence is proud to present The Chic Disorganization Mix compiled by The Disco Nihilist:

Marta Acuna - Dance Dance Dance
Skyy - First Time Around
Joe Bataan - Rap O Clap O
Jimmy Bo Horne - Spank
Roy Ayres - Running Away
Seven Deadly Sins - Lust
Patrick Cowley - Sea Hunt
Don Rae - Standing In The Rain
Spandau Ballet - I Don't Need This Pressure On
Bumble Bee Unlimited - Lady Bug
Loose Joints - Tell You Today
Jesse Henderson - Did It Again

Download One
Download Two

it's difficult not to see a devastating premonition of the AIDS scourge in "I've Got Protection" ("from your infection").

when tthe first news reports of the plague surfaced I was listening to Chic almost daily and suddenly this song hit like a ton of bricks.

A++ there MT

NO ONE HERE HEARD THE DIANA ROSS ALBUM WITH LOVE HANGOVER ETC ON IT?

Thanks Jess.

There is better shit out there, Chic was just the best of the commercial stuff.

yes we understand you have an objective take on this

lol "commercial"

Hey, I love Don Ray too (though it's not really clear to me how his music is less "cleaned-up" or "orderly" than Chic's), but using Spandau Ballet as an alternative to allegedly lifeless singing is, uh, somewhat laughable.

Wow, that was great, Kevin.

Thanx. but I bowed to your typically great previous example.

it is the 1984 version of Lost in Music-- the Edwards & Rodger's remix-- that is the more superior version. lusher and more jammin.

Is that the one that appeared on Journey into Paradise (The Larry Levan Story)? If so, I don't get it. It's okay but it's not all that remixed. Those repeated "lost in music"'s sound like a weak attempt to spice up the original.

the celebration in so much of their work sounds like a wholly exuberant blast of energy

I hear ya, Deej. I definitely get an energy blast from Chic. But Display wasn't so I was merely suggesting another route.

the Pflugerville Council For Creative Excellence is proud to present The Chic Disorganization Mix

Is this the Pflugerville outside of Austin? If so, that means I can school ya in Chic directly (I live about 3 miles north of UT).

Thanx for the mix too. But the only song on there that comes close to Chic's genius is that Loose Joints joint, despite love for "Spank," Ray, "Running Away," etc.

i would also give it up for 'sea hunt' but thats going for something totally different

sorry mr b, but you is wrong about the remix. it is much better:

the bass: upped.

the vocals: upped, with lots of reverb and some bit of delay

the awful string synth stabs in the original: NOWHERE TO BE FOUND

the mids (part, the guitar): upped

the effect of those repeated "we're lost in music...music music music" bits: priceless. it makes it a totally different and much more heady dance track.

if we're talking about cold like dry ice, then we're talking the original. if we're talking cool like a dive into a magical lake, then we're talking the remix.

i mean, it's fine, you might like your disco dry and not wet, but i like my disco both ways.

and also, my comments above don't even do justice to how different the two versions are.

I'd rather say so-called "lifeless" singers are better at preserving the tunefulness, because they tend to sing the tunes they were they were composed rather than singing their own improvised versions of them.

Damn, I wonder where you got some of dem sweet-ass tunes, Display Name.

Anyways ...

Somebody had to bring disco to Omaha, and Chic did a pretty damn good job of it (WAY better than most). And I have the feeling that many folks on here (KJB included) are viewing Chic's popularity and "commercialness" as big positive factors (or at least as non-negative factors). Besides, the majority of disco artists seemed to have been aiming for commercial appeal from the get-go (and, back in the day, there just didn't seem to be the same commercial/undeground divide that we have now).

Yet, it's a shame that middle America didn't get as much "Running Away" or Patrick Cowley or Loose Joints etc etc .... BUT, are these tracks just more interesting because they haven't been played to death like "Le Freak" or "Good Times" has? I dunno.

No. I don't get why popularity = less interesting.

i'm not saying popularity = less interesting
i'm saying ....
heard it 1,000 times before = (usually) less intersting

TS: Chocolate cake once every few months vs. being forced to have chocolate cake with every meal everyday for as long as you can remember.

black forest gateaux is a feeling

brownies are a state of mind

don't even try the caramel Junior Mints--they look like turds and lack spirit.

http://www.devynns.com/pictures/Gingerbread-House-Cottage.jpg

gingerbread house music all night long

TS: Chocolate cake once every few months vs. being forced to have chocolate cake with every meal everyday for as long as you can remember.

-- Display Name, Tuesday, 3 July 2007 01:12 (1 hour ago) Link

le freak and good times are two songs out of an entire catalogue

you guys are right Chic is the best thing ever. I am sorry I ever doubted any of you. I really love their ballads, if there was anything I was wrong about, it was the ballads.

victorious in yet another thread! u are a good sport

The funny thing is that I don't hate any of it, I just think it is a bit dull. When I listened to their albums yesterday I didn't have an Alex In NYC reaction to it, it just seemed a bit boring compared to other records I have.

http://www.website.com/yourimage.jpeg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/5c/Chic92bsmall.jpg

I take back everything, I must have been stone crazy! That photo makes me realize that they were the most important group of ALL TIME.

I mean they are even better than Londonbeat.

Sha POW POW!!!

Do you feel like you ever want
To try my love and see how well it fits
Baby can't you see, when you look at me
I can't kick this feelin' when it hits
http://www.fbctlh.org/images/pastoral_staff/clint_purvis.jpg

i take it back, u are a bad sport

Hi, my name is Cliff Purvis. Have you ever heard that called He's The Greatest Dancer by Sister Sledge? I like to play that song really loud in my dressing room before I give lectures at real estate seminars. It makes me feel like I can take on the world.
http://www.fbctlh.org/images/pastoral_staff/clint_purvis.jpg

BAN DISPLAY NAME

This thread is awesome.

yeah im sure no one uncool ever listened to Spandau Ballet

Rendered speechless by the first two songs on the self-titled Chic album from 1977, I just wanted to add as a parting shot to this thread that in the back of my mind I always think of telling people to check out "Sao Paulo" first and then if that doesn't kill them then try "Strike Up the Band" if that doesn't get them either, then for god's sake take their pulse.

BUT, are these tracks just more interesting because they haven't been played to death like "Le Freak" or "Good Times" has? I dunno.

"Running Away" may be more interesting, but only because it's simultaneously one of the best disco, best funk, best jazz and best anything else songs ever of all time.

"running away" has been played like crazy, too. i like it more than any chic song that's for sure.

hmmm, maybe not.

For me, there is a reason why "Good Times" is the most played Chic song. It is so obviously their best.

The world could have done very well indeed without "Rapper's Delight" and "Another One Bites The Dust" though.

Yeah I don't understand the appeal of that Rapper's Delight thing at all. Um...did we NEED someone to rap over a Chic beat? I don't think so. Next!

"Guess what America? We love you!"

"Rappers Delight" > "Good Times"

My bad. Why I don't "get" sarcasm, obv.

I like that line in Rapper's Delight about the chicken that tastes like wood.

"When You Love Someone" = I need to meet a lover who GETS this song.

Original poster was deaf or just judgement-impaired?

"a) I'm a big songwriting snob (hence my Ne-Yo lurve/obsession);"

No, no, he's not. I chose this thread because it's got fabulous exchanges.

Both.

I always feel kind of sheepish when this thread gets bumped, even though I have come around in the meantime.

Oh never mind, this is the first time it was. I guess it's been linked to a couple times.

learning lurve

I always liked Chic--in fact one of the first, possibly the first, albums I ever bought was C'est Chic--but for some reason I only "got" "Good Times" very recently. Having gotten it, I didn't understand what there was to get about it. How does it take decades to suddenly go: that bassline!

imo it'[s ok not to get Chic, it's not so much a criticism of the band as an affirmation tbat you personallty are a deaf cunt

I revived this thread in the hopes that Rev has heard "When You Love Someone" in the interim.