"John Bonham is the best drummer" ever sez Stylus

Mr Pato is presumably referring to this:

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/stylus-magazines-50-greatest-rock-drummers.htm

kudos (c) for including neil peart & bill bruford. No guy evans no cred though. Sorry.

Cred for Bruford, yes. Peart, hell naw.

Stephen Morris should have been number one and would have been if the "gang" at Stylus had any balls.

LOL @ no Danny Carey from Tool

ziggy modeliste at 41? fucking britishes...

But yeah, everyone's going to have their own "wot no him out of Sisters Of Mercy?" and so on, so other than that it's pretty OTM, methinks.

Guy from Joy Division? I enjoyed the list but it was crap.

I'm gutted that my votes for Sebastian Rochford, Rob Jones, John Stanier, David Turner, Kenny McEwan, Lee Harris, Emma Gaze and Rob Cieka were in vain.

Jaki is at #3 (close enuf), but John French nowhere to be found. And including Billy Cobham but neglecting Tony Williams? Hmm.

The jazz / soul / anything other than 'rock' voting was always gonna be flawed - we took the same approach as we do with reissues and comps in year-end polls, which is to say "vote for whatever you like, but don't expect anyone else to"; this is what's happened here. I didn't even consider voting for a jazz / soul drummer, cos the title of the article was always 'rock'; I only included Rochford cos I'd argue the last 2 AL albums are more rock than jazz. Or something.

Also his funky hair.

Dumbest list I've seen in eons. Larry Mullen Jr. -- nice guy though he is -- couldn't drum his way out of a paper bag. Stephen Morris gets a nod, but no Paul Ferguson?

Absolute crap.

Thanks, Alex!

Alex has a point about Paul Ferguson, nick. Also no blastbeat drummer = for shame.

At first I regretted not contributing to this, being a drummer and sometime Stylus writer, but now I'm kinda glad I didn't. Seems like most of the voters are confusing "great drummer" with "drummers from great bands," which often aren't the same thing.

Peart, hell naw.

you are obviously an idiot

Who's Paul Ferguson?

No one is ever 100% happy with any list. I'm not happy with this list! But saying it's 'absolute crap' is kinda ridiculous; it's a list! Made by people! With different taste to you!

Can someone please explains how Lol/Boris from The Cure made it onto a list of "great drummers"? I mean, don't get me wrong -- I love the Cure, but the drumming involved has NEVER been anything to write home about. The mind reels.

It's not about taste, Mouthy, it's about ability.

People may not like Rush, but anyone who suggests that Neil Peart is anything other than a spectacularly gifted drummer has their heard planted firmly up their own foul-smelling posterior.

amen

Paul Ferguson is the drummer from Killing Joke, Nick.

And he is completely brilliant. I'm such a blog-whore.

He is an outstanding drummer, one of the best I've ever seen.

Clem Burke doesn't get enough love either.

Nor Philthy Animal Taylor (if only for sheer stamina).

It's not about taste, Mouthy, it's about ability.
I don't agree with this. If it was a list of the greatest rock bands, it would not be about ability. Some people like some drummers not for their ability but their style (See Gary Young ahead of Damon Che)

who really likes gary young as a drummer, though

dude was crap, malkmus had the style for miles, not young

Hey, be fair: This list is a lot better than you guys are making it sound. I don't really agree that this has to be about ability either, what about Moe Tucker, not exactly some polyrhythmatist but so distinctive behind her kit that she's impossible not to recognise.

Props as well for Yoshimi, Glenn Kotche and Klaus Dinger (The opening few bars on La Dusseldorf are amazingly beatiful, incredibly subtle coloring on what seems like a pretty straight ahead pulse.)

wtf with Brian Chase and Larry Mullen though.

Woulda been nice to see Mick Fleetwood, but not exactly devasting not to.

Sure, mizzell, but the thing about drumming is that it's a bit more mechanical and physical than most other instruments, so I'd expect to see more virtuosos (or at least fewer drummers that can barely keep a steady fucking beat) on this list than I'd expect, say, Yngwie Malmsteen types on a best guitarist list. I mean I appreciate that a drummer can lend character and unique musical ideas to a band that have nothing to do with CHOPS, so I'm cool with, say, Ringo being on the list. But drummers from The Cure, R.E.M., Pavement, U2...come on. This is pretty much the exact kind of list I'd expect a bunch of indie rock dudes who barely pay attention to drums to come up with. (xpost)

yes i agree that a lot of the drummers on the list are, to me, nothing special. But my list would probably include few, if any, virtuosos. I thing drumming being more physical makes it open to non-virtuoso types to be more interesting. It's like running or throwing a ball, and everyone does it differently kind of naturally.

I'll give a free pass to some of the indie-centric choices, though, because I don't really like Modest Mouse or Sleater-Kinney or Yeah Yeah Yeahs but respect their drummers.

People may not like Rush, but anyone who suggests that Neil Peart is anything other than a spectacularly gifted drummer has their heard planted firmly up their own foul-smelling posterior.

Being a "gifted" drummer doesn't equal being a good or great drummer...but then you think Jaz Coleman was one of the great minds of the 20th century so I doubt you'll grasp this concept.

neil peart is gifted, good, and great, and i'm not even a huge rush fan. he is amazing.

but, i'm a drummer, so maybe i'm hearing things a little differently than you

Dump Larry Mullen, replace w/Jimmy Fox from the James Gang. Easily performed the same role for his band as Janet Weiss did for S-K, and she made it in. Whereas "Larry Mullen Jr." is just the name of a faulty drum loop software.

Peart epitomizes one extreme end of the spectrum of rock drumming that a lot of people love and a lot of people hate, therefore he's too important to not be on a list like this, unless it's being made entirely by prog-hating indie fucks.

I hear Brian Chases drumming is amazing in his side project, but while he is about the only good thing going on in YYYs still, wtf?

I really enjoyed the list. Of course there are points where I disagree, but that's how these lists go.

If you search around youtube, you can probably find 200 unknown drummers with greater "ability" than some of these guys, not to mention 200 more dudes from b-level prog and metal bands and drum workshops. (fwiw, I would have included Chris Adler of Lamb of God). There's a kid named Tony Royster Jr. who was playing better than a lot of these people when he was seven. And he's intensely boring.

Being a "gifted" drummer doesn't equal being a good or great drummer...but then you think Jaz Coleman was one of the great minds of the 20th century so I doubt you'll grasp this concept.

Style is more important that "gifted," yes. But go fuck yourself anyway, you patronizing dink.

Dale Crover shut-out speaks volumes of the stylus brain trust deficiency

what about this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzt6PwuQABk

Also, why no Charlie Benante?

If we're talking indie drummers, the dude from the Jesus Lizard is an important one. He has it all: power, style, technique and nasty grooves.

Larry Mullen is the one really baffling addition on that list, I can see how someone could make a case for a bunch of the people I don't like, but mullen is a plodder. Knock him out of the list and put horgh in in his place!

I never cared for Bozzio.

Steve Gadd and Earl Palmer really should be on the list (Hal Blaine was a nice call though).

As far as indie dudes,

Kid Millions
JIM WHITE HELLO???
McEntire/Herndon/Bitney

even when considering taste AND ability you'd have to put peart on there.

Benny Benjamin needs to be there somewhere.

I would have voted for Ziggy Modeliste. But I didn't vote.

oh yeah the tortoise trio missing from that list breaks my heart

they are out of fashion right now ;_;

like britishes are fashionable.

have you ever seen their teeth? yikes.

they aren't out of fashion they just released that bumps record

i like how no one is refuting bonham being the (rock) best drummer ever. because he is.

wtf, u2 cure rem? uh...no. and i <3 JD and NO, but morris just two spots behind jaki is ridiculous.

I would've put Moon above him, but I'm not mad at Bonham being on top instead.

teh brits have a really poor track record with rock drumming after punk </carducci>

Fuck yeah, Jim White!

That Bozzio thing is intensely tedious.

it's fricken bozzio man

I don't actually know who that is.

sigh

bumps is pretty much exclusively for drum geeks and home producers. It's neat, but I don't think it's made post-rock cool again

Picture thread: Your favorite drummer

guys bill berry actually is a really good drummer

he is awesome

He's certainy more interesting a drummer than Larry Mullen Jr.

Hell, Berry playing the bongos on "Low" is more interesting than Mullen's entire career.

didn't really like the list overall. tho Larry Mullen is hardly the worst drummer in rock, he's come to epitomize the kind of guy who makes it on the cover of drumming magazines so drumming magazines can sell more issues.

x-post

So, no WTFs for John Densmore?

I thought that, but I've retired from arguing with Doors fans.

also let's shed a tear for doug clifford

I thought that, but I've retired from arguing with Doors fans.

Haha, my reaction to seeing him was like "WHAAA...I don't have the energy anymore"

steve goulding, jim keltner, jeff porcaro...

jim gordon

also: tired of hearing about Charlie Watts

jim gordon
definitely

Notable omissions for me include Jim White, John McEntire, and Andy Ramsay.

I know this is changing the rules of the game, but it'd be cooler to have a list of greatest under-sung drummers or something like that, and allow some space to the Clem Burkes and Steve Gouldings of the world.

Bill Berry wrote a lot too apparently, including Everybody Hurts.

Where was Todd Trainer?

Larry Mullin might be the richest guy on the list

Mullen

stewart copeland's loaded, ain't he

haha speaking of rich assholes, phil collins is unfortunately better than many of these jokers

Cutty how is Bumps??

For a punk band, Joy Division were bizarrely democratic
Does this make any sense???

Drum geek sick chops youtube thread

I read that Hal Blaine had been very rich at his peak, but overspent and then lost most of his wealth as studio work dried up in the 80s

I remember he used to stamp his charts so there would be documentation that he had played the session. He also asked for a gold record if the record was a hit, but I think he had to sell most of those.

Throw 50 drummers against a wall and a few will stick. This least is really, really weird.

The not-really-rock inclusions (Zigaboo, Tony Allen, etc.) are kind of funny, like "good drummers that indie dudes like too!".

Bah! Dumb hipster list put together by someone who obviously doesn't play drums.

Add: Pete DeFreitas, John Maher, Mel Gaynor, Clem Burke

"someone who obviously doesn't play drums."

What's that got to do with anything?

"Years ago I had dozens of Roses bootlegs"

Ouch! no wonder your ears are so sensitive these days, nick!

paul thompson was fucking awesome on those early roxy records
stylus blows

bumps is a lot of fun, nothing really serious--nice ethnic rhythms all tortoise-d out. the drum sounds are really mental.

otm re:

phil collins, he's the closest thing to jaki liebezeit we've got in those early genesis records. he kills it!

paul thompson HITS HARD

Crazy Phil "Fill" Collins = http://www.philcollinsfansite.com/images/brand-x.jpg

Yeah, I feel the same about Bumps - but I don't think they set out to make anything more than a collection of sweet drum breaks, and that's pretty much what it is.

As a drummer, I always find non-drummers'/non-musicians' (big assumptions, there) opinions on what they perceive to be good/impressive drumming highly interesting. There are some interesting choices on the list. That said, it is appalling. I suppose a list should spark discussion if it is to be worth compiling (and I know it's Stylus Magazine's 50 Greatest Drummers in Rock) ; but you know, there are interesting, illuminating, distinctive choices and dumb distinctive choices -- and when you place Gary Young ahead of Billy Cobham (if he is even going to be included in your "rock" drumming list) or Topper Headon in front of Al Jackson Jr., that's just insulting. Was this list compiled/decided by votes (probably)?

I'm really not trying to adopt some superior muso, Dream-Theater-fan (I'm not, btw -- at all), tone with those observations, but there are some, seriously, merely/barely competent, not to mention boring, drummers on there at the expense of many icons who anyone who writes about popular music should be aware of (and who deserve inclusion). I mean, how do you leave guys like Steve Gadd, Jim Keltner, and Jeff Porcaro off of that list (especially all of them)? Are you just too hip to include them? If you can include Hal Blaine (who I believe should be there, yes), you can include Gadd, whose influence is enormous. Gadd should probably be on there for "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" alone: maybe you don't care for the tune, but have you ever listened to the drum part?; do you understand how unusual it is -- what kind of part would you come up with, or expect someone to come up with, for that song?. And as stupid as it is to argue over a list (and assert, essentially,"I disagree with you, so you're wrong!"), I just think that not including someone of Gadd's stature (as stated, he's not the only glaring omission) is a pretty lame.

But I can't argue with Bonham for the top spot, either.

#1 = Carmine Appice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71cGLyOKhSc

NEVER FORGET.

and when you place Gary Young ahead of Billy Cobham
I drew a sigh of relief for Ziggy that he wasn't behind Gary Young, even though he only beat him by one slot.

I didn't even read the list as being in any kind of order, that would have driven me crazy for sure.

PHIL MOTHERFUCKIN' RUDD

http://www.acdccentral.com/photos/cliff&phil/phil3.jpg

OTM OTM OTM

"People may not like Rush, but anyone who suggests that Neil Peart is anything other than a spectacularly gifted drummer has their heard planted firmly up their own foul-smelling posterior."

One of the more OTM posts i've ever read on these boards. As is the Rudd post.

This list is egregious. The guy above who had a hand in this list can't take offense at people saying how utterly shitty this list is, because he himself complained that some of his votes didn't make the list.

But man, this is one sorry fucking list. Holy shit.

What's that got to do with anything?

Because it's clearly a list of drummers from someone's favorite bands, or bands that they think are important, with little regard as to the drummers abilities or how the drummer enhances the rest of the band. Lumping together Lol Tolhurst / Boris Williams (they're good drummers for The Cure, but not Great Drummers) seems kinda insulting.

Leaving out George Hurley is criminal.

You don't have to be a drummer to recognize how a drummer enhances the rest of the band (personally, don't care much for his abilities if he doesn't enhance). This is just the old "Only musicians really understand music" argument.

I don't have anything against Gary Young. His playing was actually fairly appropriate for that (highly shambolic) era of Pavement. Still, his work on those releases sounds like that of someone who has played drums for less than/about a year (to be fair, I think he improved considerably during his tenure with Pavement). I think that's why it sounds unique to some: most drummers have moved beyond that point (the Gary Young point) by the time they play in a band. And some drummers that are technically superior to Gary Young are, of course, more boring than Gary Young (if you wish you evaluate the craft in such a way). But, as silly as it is, it puts my feathers in a bunch to see him ranked above, or included instead of, drummers who helped develop the instrument's vocabulary, who had truly singular voices, were really musical, or who really kick(ed) ass . . . c'mon.

x-post

Chris Frantz should not be on this list, and especially not at #12. I love Talking Heads, and having the drummer play a steady four-on-the-floor beat behind nearly song certainly contributed to their sound, but there's a reason they had to bring in the auxiliary percussion players circa Remain in Light: there wasn't much syncopation coming out of Frantz. Watch Stop Making Sense, and Frantz is consistently the least interesting person on stage, except when he introduces the Tom Tom Club song. Having him ranked above drummers like Clyde Stubblefield, Al Jackson and Hal Blaine is just nuts.

Didn't Deborah Harry call him out for being shitty when they were playing at CBGB's together?

The Heads secret weapon was Tina Weymouth.

betelgeuse otm about a lot. the list is a little depressing in that it gives me the impression people don't actually listen to the drums that much in records

I more or less consider myself a drummer sometimes and I love Gary Young's playing on Pavement. I still find it insulting when "drummers" can only find love for the Bozzios and Colaiutas.

Probably a bit harsh to call the list shite, but it didn't live up to its promise. No Charles Hayward = no credibility.

Besides, I'm a bit surprised not to find either Greg Saunier or Chippendale from Lightning Bolt on there, since they usually are mentioned (for a good reason) in this sort of indie discussion.

and Z S is totally OTM. Chris Frantz is redundant

fuck yeah on Greg and Chippendale

The list is definitely too skewed toward "I like this band a lot and the drummer does more than an adequate job as a contributor". But it's hard to draw the line sometimes between a genuinely good or great drummer and just a drummer that happens to play right in a great band. The tendency in rock is more toward good group chemistry + exciting frontman rather than bunch of awesome individual players like in jazz.

I third Saunier. Deerhoof could not be the same, or as good, with any other drummer.

Shouldn't the most basic criteria for this list be "would you notice immediately if some random dude suddenly replaced the drummer in this band?"

Talking Heads, U2 and many others on the list fail this test miserably. There are two Cure drummers listed, ffs.

Oh and Jimmy Chamberlin fucking sucks.

Saunier was one of the two founding members and plays a big role in Deerhoof songwriting/composition, iirc

John Maher

Elvis Telecom, I have to ask: was this an accidental transposition of John Mayer and Fred Maher? (If not, apologies; just the first thing that came to mind. Fred Maher's great.)

It’s helped make the Boredoms most intriguing rhythmic groups of the last twenty five years. "one of the most intriguing"? i can respect keith and bonham at 2-1, and everyone sticking up for n. peart, but where are john stanier, christian vander, tiki fulwood, jim white, mick fleetwood, john mcentire, scott hartley, and phil collins?

Oh and Jimmy Chamberlin fucking sucks.

uhhh, no

Watch Stop Making Sense, and Frantz is consistently the least interesting person on stage

Isn't this intentional?

You like snare fills, more snare fills, and only snare fills?

i had to look up who the hell jim eno was.

Jim Eno is probably a better producer than drummer. His sounds are the amazing part.

can't believe meg white isn't on that list.

"John Maher"

"Elvis Telecom, I have to ask: was this an accidental transposition of John Mayer and Fred Maher? (If not, apologies; just the first thing that came to mind. Fred Maher's great.)"

john maher would make a list of my favorite drummers. i like him more than any of the punkers on that list. love fred maher too.

oh and he was in the buzzcocks, matos.

my fave punk/indie man/machine drummers are john maher, stephen morris, and the dude from throwing muses.

oh and penny rimbaud too.

He was certainly one of the best recorded.

It was the Buzzcocks guy I was thinking of but yeah, Fred Maher is great too.

No one OTM'ing me on George Hurley? I'm sad...

Elvis T OTM

Meg White is actually a naturally gifted drummer who has been stunted by Jack White insistence that she not practice so that she can serve as his instrument or something.

White's

you meg white apologists are all the same. got boobs in yer eyes. i mean stars.

"Jason Bonham is the best drummer" ever sez Stylus

Boobs sadly less of an explanation for Moe Tucker.

x-post

and the dude from throwing muses.

Oh, David Narcizo, shit yeah. He was a critical part of their sound, although I think roundabout Red Heaven he started to tend towards sameness on a lot of his parts.

god watching soul soldier on youtube now i'm reminded of why i have such high standards when it comes to amerindie rock. that song used to kill so hard live. i would have chills for days.

A third for Fred Maher too, and Steve Ferrone, for that matter.

i'm just glad chad smith and stephen perkins weren't on that list

You like snare fills, more snare fills, and only snare fills?

listen to more than the first 3 seconds of "Cherub Rock"

Dale Crover shut-out speaks volumes of the stylus brain trust deficiency

awesome

in my book it's Ward then Bonham and then everyone else (for rock anyway)

my obligatory "not found" entry: the amazing but under-recorded Bobby Caldwell

i hear ya brother.

Where Is The Love For Bobby Caldwell?? No, Not THAT Bobby Caldwell! Bobby Caldwell of Captain Beyond & Keith Relf's Armageddon & Johnny Winter And & Rick Derringer Fame!!

is Just Jack picking the photos used for Stylus articles?

http://www.richardandkarencarpenter.com/7-0-1%20Karen%201973.jpg

Why didn't Stylus put Meg White on the list just to piss everyone off?

And to get a bit of tit on the page, natch.

What about singing drummers like Don Henley and Phil Collins? Those guys put Neil Peart and John Bonham to shame, especially with their tremendous fashion sensibilities and such.

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum43/john_bonham.jpg

http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/wallpaper/R30neil.jpg

That Neil Peart image almost broke my brower.

and the dude from throwing muses.

I was just coming here to give props to Dave Narcizo. He is *awesome*. His style is really unusual.

throwing muses 1987:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aKgZCRCk-Pw

and 2006 (love this snippet. they have become jam band.)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ggGSbgZ_lAE

OF COURSE JOHN BONHAM IS THE "THE BEST DRUMMER EVER" THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE

HOLY SHIT Skot thanks for those links!!!!

That first Muses clip from 87 is a perfect example of Narcizo's drumming style, thats awesome. Ive seen them live and he was captivating.

Well I've seen them more times than any other band, in the realm of 8 times.

I'm just trying to say I think this thread's purpose is ludicrous. But then everything is.

keith moon doesn't belong with all these "drummers" on this list. he wasn't a drummer at all; he was a lead percussionist. seems like he doesn't get talked about as much as, say, bonham because no one's really caught up to/caught on to the enormity of moon's innovations.

as for omissions, dennis thompson? dave mattacks? and how can such a list exist without benny benjamin, uriel jones, or pistol allen?

it's weird. this thread got me thinking about the muses and i went on youtube tonight and there is tons of great stuff and then this woman came over tonight who knows maria from way back and she told me she was from newport so i told her how i was reminiscing about the throwing muses and she told me all these great stories about hanging out at the hersh house growing up and seeing their first show at newport high school and how she was friends with the gorman (?) brothers and verbal assault and it was just very illuminating! they all went to high school together! so i had to tell her about meeting kristen and tanya and david and leslie for the first time in new york in 1987 and how petrified i was. boy o boy, memory lane! and if it wasn't for this thread today, i doubt i would have brought them up at all! so, this thread had a purpose, bimble, and it wasn't ludicrous at all.

Garoux Des Larmes, Jesus H. CHRIST.

I just got a song from that EP in my head this very WEEK at work, I swear...the one about the war...out of the blue, for no reason I heard it.

Skot them Muses stories of yours make me the happy.

"Cowboy hats are back in

This is the future
this is the future after the war
and I don't eat anymore"

maria's friend said that when they played at the high school the bell rang and everyone left the room except for a couple of people. how embarrassing! and the hersh house was big and rambling and weird. sounded very john irving.

"Have wine I can't drink it/the pianos I can't afford"

my brother was the one who bullied his way backstage at the new york show so that i could meet the band. i was terrified and could barely speak. honestly, i was scared to death. they did an ID for the radio show i had at school. they were very nice. i thought i was gonna die. the members of hugo largo were in the room too wondering why we were ignoring them. somewhere i have that show on tape too.

"Adolf Hitler is the best fascist dictator" ever sez Stylus

the members of hugo largo were in the room too wondering why we were ignoring them

"Don't you understand! One of us is going to sing for Moby and another one's going to sign Hootie and the Blowfish!"

I heart this thread right now. Early Throwing Muses makes me very happy also. Not sure if Narcizo is on that 7" EP of early stuff. I need to get that double CD, Doghouse or something?

Jim White not on that Stylus list? Yeah, the parameters seem too broad.

xpost is that really true about Hugo Largo?!?!

HUGO LARGO! Holy hell, Skott. What are you trying to do, make me feel 16 or 17 years old again? I tried to play one of their albums not too many months ago and it just didn't seem as great as it did to me at the time. Not that I was ever a huge fan, but I liked them enough to keep taped copies of their CD's.

xpost is that really true about Hugo Largo?!?!

Mimi Goese: sang on Everything is Wrong
Tim Sommer: hosts shows on MTV, goes to Atlantic, becomes A&R guy for Hootie and helps break 'em

But god, no, David Narcizo is not even a pimple on John Bonham's ass, let's just get that clear.

Jesus, Ned. Thanks, I guess.

I love that we are bringing Hugo Largo up in this thread about drummers (since they had none). I still kinda like 'em but not as much as the Muses. Hahn Rowe played with Swans!

Bimble u mad.

I love Hugo Largo.

I bet Matt Barrick belongs on this list (based on "The Rat"...i haven't heard much else).

Dude was only 32 when he died

that's amazing to me mostly in the sense that he was only 20 when he started recording those magnificent early tracks

I was only 32 when we in Stylus compiled these names.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJpP7wVkVs

I'm feeling Kenny Buttrey today

Dude was only 32 when he died

So Prince Harry has two more years of partying left.

https://youtu.be/2-yQWPanTyw

Buddy Rich destroys inna Bonham style