Is there a name for that genre of turn-of-the-90s pop-rock with the positive vibes, huge guitar leads, and gated drums?

That's an interesting question, but unfortunately I can't place the School of Fish or Roxette songs at the moment. And wasn''t the Jesus Jones song more associated with a Madchester/baggy thing, or even Grebo?

So what do we call this music?

Revolting.

I kid, I kid.

Do you guys think that "Black or White" was Michael Jackson's last compelling (musical) moment? 'Cos I'm inclined to think that it was.

post-Cannibals

Modern Rock

Do you guys remember people around that time saying "I listen to progressive music"? (which meant they listened to the "Modern Rock" format radio station circa '90/'91)

School of Fish was proto-Seattle.

Was Earth Song before or after Black & White? I always thought there was a good song there, but it was pretty cheesy.

nu-Freedom Rock

I think the Spin Doctors fit this description, esp. the drums and positive vibes. I'm not sure I'd say they have huge guitar leads, but then I wouldn't say that about "Black or White" either.

Also no way is "Black or White" Michael Jackson's last compelling musical moment...unless you mean Dangerous; because "In the Closet" is badass.

post-Cannibals

roffles

Do you guys remember people around that time saying "I listen to progressive music"? (which meant they listened to the "Modern Rock" format radio station circa '90/'91)

YES!!

Dada - "Dizz Knee Land"
Toad The Wet Sprocket

"life is a highway"
the escape club!
kick-era inxs pretty much fits this description

Re: Michael Jackson, "You Rock My World" is pretty great.

three strange days really is the king song of this genre.

Do you guys remember people around that time saying "I listen to progressive music"?

Damn, that was a confusing time to like college, er...modern rock, er...alternative. I'd probably just go with "pop rock". That's probably too nebulous, but it's a pretty acurate description of those acts.

On a side note, I was really into what dell calls a Madchester/baggy thing, or even Grebo at the time, but probably just called it modern rock or progressive (thanks, WHFS!). I remember hearing people refer to the city of Manchester as "Madchester", but never heard any of these genre names. Was I out of the loop, or did we 'Muricans just not latch on to these tags?

Wonderful picks everybody! "Dizz Knee Land" is one of those songs I've managed to hear of a million times but never actually hear before, and it fits right in there in the more "alternative" wing of the genre, along with "Three Strange Days." And yeah, "Three Strange Days" is fantastic.

From my old moldering Deadeye Dick thread:

My wife has this friend, and he showed up late to this party last year...I asked him why he'd been late and he said, "Oh well, I wanted to come earlier but I went to the Fine Line cuz my favorite band was playing"

Me: "Oh really? cool...what band?"

Him: "Dada"

His favorite band is Dada. Huh. Didn't see that coming.

-- M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, November 3, 2005 5:35 PM (Thursday, November 3, 2005 5:35 PM)

Deadeye Dick themselves probably don't quite make the cut as "Post-Cannibals," the mix is a little too thin and the tone a little too grungey. But the Spin Doctors are a really good call.

Haha "Three Strange Days" was the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread's title.

Would Matthew Sweet's "Girlfriend" fit into this genre, or would his retro leanings and/or later hits negate his candidacy?

I always associate "Right Here, Right Now" and EMF's "Unbelievable." (Perhaps because both were on the chart in summer 1991.)

"Unbelievable" was totally on that CD whose commercial I was babbling about above!

btw, for anyone still catching up, videos for:

Three Strange Days
Joyride
Black Or White

"Black Or White" also features Macaulay Culkin and a pan-racial, pan-national, "the Cold War is over! the future is bright!" message which only adds to the positive vibes. See also "Right Here Right Now."

"the Cold War is over! the future is bright!" message

Also see: Scorpions, "Wind of Change"

Would Matthew Sweet's "Girlfriend" fit into this genre

Matthew Sweet is way too rugged. : )

Damn, judging by the video, School of Fish were the Silverchair of their time.

C+C Music Factory: "Here We Go"

haha i'd forgotten abt that dada story, but it is true. blew my mind.

geggy tah would fit this.

Those examples at the start don't have much in common the way I see it.

Roxette and Jesus Jones were both influenced by Powerpop though, only in very different ways and with very different stylistic outcome.

A lot of examples aren't fitting together for me, but there is a certain guitar sound running through a bunch of them that seems telling: a rhythm guitar thing, up front in the mix, somewhat think (or at least not taking up a ton of space) and usually verging on staccato or telegraph -- the opposite of the sludgy/blurry blanket the other end of alt-rock would bring in.

"Black or White" has this hardcore
School of Fish do, if I remember right
Roxette kicked this a TON, being a duo
"Two Princes" had it (most Spin Doctors, really)
"Life is a Highway"

I think the paradigm that's getting pinned down here is one where rock bands are uptempo rhythm machines, with the rhythm sections having really mild doses of funkiness or propulsion, and that's supposed to be sufficient enough on its own that the guitar doesn't need to occupy all the space above it. Whereas the alt paradigm that comes after it is very guitar-blanket and would have no truck with a guitar playing a scratch rhythm line (like the one on "Life is a Highway" especially), and the rhythm sections aren't treated as sufficient -- in fact, they usually have to lay down a fuzzy rhythm guitar just playing the chords on eighth notes before they can move on toward adding another guitar to play even simple leads.

That would seem like a turn in a bad direction, and kinda was, except that the turn-of-90s stuff had a huge problem: it tended to sound like a drum machine and a Very Corny Bassist playing out of a karaoke box while some guy played rhythm Strat as if there were actually a band around. I think the late 80s and early 90s were kind of a horrible end point of using technology to make really slick, artificial music, but still aspiring to make it in the mold of, like, 60s American rock'n'roll classics, blues, funk, and all -- by the end of the 80s we were getting these weird chromed-out replicas of the old stuff, old-school R'n'R played on digital keyboards and triggered gated drums, and it started to feel uncomfortable, and that sort of thing seems to have died hard going into the next decade.

Wonderful posts nabisco. I'm not sure how much I buy the narrative but it's nice to see one being floated, particularly one focusing in on "that guitar sound" that I've had a hard time putting into words.

So does this mean that there were no heirs to this lineage? That alt-rock's influence, even on people that were ultimately not consuming alt-rock albums, was to restate a certain standard of "authenticity" when one was to undertake doing genre work? That is, the bands of the late 90s working "in the mold of, like, 60s American rock'n'roll classics, blues, funk, and all" seem to have gone for a much more "organic"-sounding production. Fastball comes immediately to mind, but I suppose that a lot of the pop-rock which is so reviled by rockist CW would fit in here - Matchbox 20, Hootie, Deep Blue Something - not "alternative" bands in any sonic sense but they seem to have absorbed the ethos.

This also makes me wonder how many of the Post-Cannibals records were the result of "alt" bands showing up in the studio with producers who only knew how to make certain kinds of records. The School of Fish song seems to make a case for this - everything about it besides the production suggests that these guys walked in the door as a garage psychedelia band.

I just realized I saw School of Fish live. They opened for the Charlatans in early 1991.

Just thought of another one - The Proclaimers, "500 Miles." It's a little weird, but the snare and the chunky guitar both make an appearance to my ears.

Seems like some movie soundtrack hits from 89 and 90 might fit this bill. Interesting ideas from Nabisco here -- kind of like sounds from the 60s-channeling baby boomer demographic finally grappling with these technologies.

Oh man: the guy at the next desk is listening to "Life is a Highway."

So the more I think about it, the more I can't tell if the development I'm talking about was a good one or not. Doctor Casino is totally right: most anyone making an old-school rock'n'roll record after 92 or so would shoot for production that sounded natural, "vintage." And while this was WAY less embarrassing, it feels weird to applaud a development that put stuff in a glass case to be properly preserved and recreated.

Movie soundtracks are a great example of this, Mark! I'd trace it back toward the early 80s, where you have two things going: (a) the shine and ambition of prog and "yacht rock" have kinda died, and (b) you have one of rock's early generations first hitting the question of how to be an older rocker. (E.g., Rod Stewart is all over MTV).

And if you look at big movie-sountrack type hits in particular, a ridiculous number of them are pastiches of rock's early days -- a lot of them lyrically about the roots of rock:

- Huey Lewis is all "The Heart of Rock and Roll is the Beat"
- George Thoroughgood is doing "Bad to the Bone" blues pastiche
- Billy Joel is going further back and doing doo-wop pastiche like "Uptown Girl"
- "Old Time Rock and Roll" by Bob Seger!
- I would kinda class "Footloose" here too
- and stuff like Aretha singing "Freeway of Love!"

Plus stuff like Mellencamp and Tom Petty -- it was like everyone soldifying a mythology of what rock'n'roll was, only nobody yet felt like there was some great incompatibility between classic rock/soul and 80s production techniques. (It surely helped that the people working in big studios, the session players, the label heads and producers, and plenty of the stars had genuinely been working since the glory days.)

Point being that seems to fall apart right around "Life is a Highway," or something. (I would go on and on about the details of this, but I don't think they're hard to imagine; there was a kind of changing of the guard here, I think.)

Spin Doctors didn't have gated drums at all! Aaron Comess was a sick drummer, dudes

B-52's "Roam" may fit into this.

And those early 90's Def Leppard singles

like "Let's Get Rocked"

There really should be a name for this kind of thing. It's like the hair-metal aesthetic, only with "party rock" instead of hair metal.

Get rocked here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B05EDye9QII

There is so much wrong with that video, I don't even know where to start.

Soup Dragons, "Divine Thing"

I have been rocked by that video.

I didn't remember that I owe the expression "let's get the rock out of here" to that song! I probably say that ten times a week!

- Huey Lewis is all "The Heart of Rock and Roll is the Beat"

I'll be pedantic: "The Heart of Rock and Roll is still Beating" was the lyric.

Another name for that genre: "hot new country" (e.g. Alan Jackson "Chattahoochee").

Big Audio Dynamite II, "Rush"
The Farm, "Groovy Train"

This is the continuing application of mid 80s pop production to rock music, right? Sound of Bob Clearmountain on Bryan Adams Reckless and Hall & Oates Big Bam Boom, and of Mutt Lange on tons of stuff (AC/DC, Def Lep, Huey Lewis, the Cars' Heartbeat City, etc.). Kind of based in dance music in the first place - Clearmountain worked with Chic. Vic Maile did some similar stuff in England, though he's more associated with hard rock bands.

By the time you get to the 90s, the drums aren't quite so prominent & boomy, the once-trendy new wave dance elements starting to shrivel, more naturalistic production coming back into favor.

That's not pedantry, that's important: I've spent decades thinking Huey's pointing out that, like, rhythm is the foundation of rock'n'roll music!

Plus, exactly, add to the "explicit nostalgia" pile -- "Summer of 69" by Bryan Adams

Nabisco is giving this thread a B-story.

And while this was WAY less embarrassing, it feels weird to applaud a development that put stuff in a glass case to be properly preserved and recreated.

Yeah, in general I'm much more drawn to pastiches of "classic sounds" that seem to be made unhesitatingly with whatever "today"'s sounds are, no matter how dated they may rapidly turn out to be. Over at Popular, Tom Ewing is starting to hit that stretch of the 70s where every third number one is a really blatant attempt to recapitulate specific sounds of the 50s or 60s, except they sound totally weird and idiosyncratically of their times as well. And thank god, because it turns out that if you sound exactly like the classic records, but aren't actually as good of a musician/performer/songwriter, you have no legs left to stand on and will inevitably suffer from the direct comparison....

In a slightly different vein and a good decade before the stuff I started the thread about, you have "It's Still Rock and Roll To Me" by Billy Joel, where he insists repeatedly on a continuity between rock n' roll and the present-day musics, while performing in the style of Joe Jackson...

So anyway, yeah, I like this version of the history that focuses on the talent pool working in the biz - it's much more interesting to conceive of these people as being rock veterans getting on board with what looks like the next big thing than cynical cash-ins milking a perverted form of rock for no good reason at all. See also: the Traveling Wilburys, basically an interpretation of "roots rock" by 60s musicians, produced by a 70s master in his 80s style. Actually, all of Jeff Lynne's 80s records fit really snugly into this history...

Spin Doctors didn't have gated drums at all! Aaron Comess was a sick drummer, dudes

So was Phil Collins! I'm no recording engineer or anything, but I definitely hear that famous "80s drum sound" on Two Princes. It's not quite "Myth of Fingerprints" but it's there.

I was going to mention Traveling Wilburys right after Nabisco's first post today, but I haven't actually heard them.

I suspect the legacy of hair metal is more of a factor of all this than I thought at first too. If you asked me to make a record that sounded like "Cherry Pie" or "Pour Some Sugar On Me" for a band without a lead guitarist it might end up sounding a lot like "Joyride," I dunno.

xpost Traveling Wilburys are GREAT! The whole first album is really wonderful and shockingly unforced-feeling for a supergroup-type thing. The Lynne-y-ness varies from track to track, though, and I don't think anything on it sounds quite as keen on the 80s as "Got My Mind Set On You."

I would also like to add that listening to Morrissey in the early 90s was a useful balancer to listening to the type of music described on this thread---put it together and you get something like a pop speedball, up and down together.

Possibly worth reviewing: That Eighties Drum Sound

Which, not to spam my own thread, quickly raises the possibility that the explicit goal of sounding like this was to AVOID being hidebound by the spectre of rock history. Hrm....

Re: the backstory. Maybe it isn't the application of modern production to tradition rock 'n' roll sounds and themes, but the other way around - lyrical window-dressing that attempts to connect this ostensibly un-rock sound with "respectable" no-homo rock history. A bunch of artists saying, "No, this really is rock, just like you grew up with. Don't get all uncomfortable like you did with disco."

Thus the relentless, protesteth-too-much insistence on AMERICAN ROCK N ROLL. All these super ordinary, gritty blue collar dudes in denim jackets singing about how it used to be, working-class kicks, the heart of rock n roll, and the fact that it was only ever about dancing in the first place.

I.e., taking a lyrical step back in order to make the musical step forward more palatable.

So was Phil Collins! I'm no recording engineer or anything, but I definitely hear that famous "80s drum sound" on Two Princes.

What "Two Princes" are you listening to? There's like sputtery funk fills and ghost notes and a break. How could you hear ghost notes if it was gated? There's like a world of difference between "In The Air Tonight" and the Spin Doctors. Spin Doctors are produced to sound like a BAND. The drums sound like drums.

I guess I just mean how the snare counts its way through the song on the 3 (nothing really unusual about that) and sounds like a ringing shiny TONGKK!!! Someone else back me up here?

I'll totally back you up on the pushed snare, but in general, the drums do sound more natural than most of what's being discussed here.

I think he just tuned his snare funny.

But I'll take the drums alone in "Two Princes" over any beats I've ever heard Dave Grohl or Janet Weiss come up with.

-- chuck, Monday, March 17, 2003 11:49 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Link

OTFM

Yeah, the drums do sound really naturalistic on Two Princes. The snare is cranked pretty high (tuning-wise and in the mix) and there's a lot of reverb on there, but it's really live-sounding.

It still totally fits the vaguely funky, party-rock vibe though!

Actually listening to the break in that tune I wouldn't be surprised if there was some gating going on? Not Phil Collins extremes or anything, just a little.

OTFMy ass. Grohl slays on Scentless Apprentice and No One Knows. Different kind of thing, but just as tight. More uptight? Yeah, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Given those two examples, I'm inclined to change my OTFM.

It still totally fits the vaguely funky, party-rock vibe though!

When threads collide!

Sang "Two Princes" at karaoke tonight to a fairly receptive crowd. What a great song. Half the running time is taken up with "just go ahead now"s, but they pack in enough variations on that, plus the fantastic scatting thing after the first verse and the hidden gem at the end: "Oh, your majesty / Come on forget the king and marry me." So great.

Post-Cold-War sounds right.

the result of "alt" bands showing up in the studio with producers who only knew how to make certain kinds of records.

Proposed genre name: Industry Music

the opposite of the sludgy/blurry blanket the other end of alt-rock would bring in.

A lot of British "alternative" music would not at all have a sludgy or blurry guitar sound. Britpop, for instance, often had a very pure and clean guitar sound.

I think Genesis' "I Can't Dance" fits into this category as well.

In the original post, Doctor Casino says "One can imagine an entire alternate, Nirvanaless 90s rock history-that-might-have-been". When I was living in Atlanta during the summers of 1993 and 1994, listening to the local "alternative" station at work (99X), this stuff was all they played. It was like Nirvana never happened. Later, after I'd stopped coming back to Atlanta for the summer, I heard they started playing more Creed-type stuff (and I guess with Seven Mary Three, who had a big hit in 1995, that was on the way earlier). But in 1993 and 1994, you'd hear Whale once an hour, Porno for Pyros, that "New Age Girl" song with the "she don't eat meat but she sure loves the bone" line, and on and on with this stuff. So I don't think you have to imagine an entirely different rock history---it happened, and I'm sure Atlanta wasn't the only place it did---but I spent the rest of my time in San Antonio, and there Nirvana and the Smashing Pumpkins laid out a much grungier history.

Euler - faboo post, especially because I'm from Atlanta and was weaned on 99X myself - but from, let's say, '96 through '99, when the format was dead-set on post-grunge alt-rock: Foo Fighters, Everclear, and Pumpkins reined supreme. If the guitars were distorted or the band wore tattoos, it was probably in. Funny how these things evolve! Just around 2000 the nu-metal quotient was really getting too much to take, and anyway I moved away for college at that point. I think they later pulled the standard 2000's "return to rock" makeover where they start playing Nirvana and Pearl Jam along with the White Stripes...dunno where they're at now.

I just checked the "Hit List" on "Detroit's New Rock Alternative" 89X and the top three songs are Foo Fighters, Papa Roach and Limp Bizkit. Two out of three bands I didn't even know still existed.

James Murphy still has a lot of work to do.

99x's playlist is almost exactly what you'd expect it to be if you stopped listening in 1997, with the integration of numetal and emo (and still plenty of Dave Matthews Band ads all over the place)...

Oh, and a few "huh, didn't realize they were that above the radar now" moments - Peter, Bjorn, & John, mainly. WTF? Also, Cake apparently has a cover of "War Pigs" out there, so I guess I better not turn on the radio for a while. Collective Soul is my pick for "didn't even know still existed."

THEY ALSO CANCELLED THE RETROPLEX WHICH WAS THE ONLY GOOD THING ABOUT THE STATION

In the "same as it ever was" category, there's also a Silverchair song on the 99X playlist. It's like 1994 never ended. I thought their whole "appeal" was that they were a "grunge" (and Australian) version of Hanson?

I just checked the "Hit List" on "Detroit's New Rock Alternative" 89X and the top three songs are Foo Fighters, Papa Roach and Limp Bizkit. Two out of three bands I didn't even know still existed.

James Murphy still has a lot of work to do.

-- yussel, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 04:52 (7 hours ago) Link

haha, I did a doubletake and actually had to go to that site and make sure that Limp Bizkit doesn't still exist. they don't -- you meant Linkin Park.

"James Murphy still has a lot of work to do" is the new "no Sufjan, no credibility".

what does it mean?

without pushing it too hard, i think this stuff had an r&b analog in new jack swing. both had that real crisp, bright beat production, mostly uptempo, big hooks. and design-wise, lots of color -- if you watch videos either for a lot of songs in this thread or for new jack songs, you get all those bright primary colors, and lush purples and greens. in both cases it was sort of the tail end of an 80s sonic and visual aesthetic, and they had some commonality in their hybridization of pop, electrofunk and hip-hop. (not that the songs being talked about here actually reflected much hip-hop, but they were at least aware of it. look at the half-rapped verses in like, inxs songs or even "life is a highway." and then supplanted in the recessionary early 90s by grunge on the one hand and g-funk on the other, which took turns in murkier directions and basically had nothing to say to each other.

i've always thought that 88-91 era had some things in common with the '60-'63 era, when rock 'n' roll and r&b and tin pan alley were all kind of talking to each other, these windows of pop hybridization between periods when forms emerge and solidify again (often by referencing or paying homage to past forms). the hybrid periods tend to be marked by a lot of moaning about various forms being "dead" and a lot of sneering at the stuff on the charts. it's possible we're in one now.

(should have been a closed parens somewhere in that first paragraph. insert at will.)

In the "same as it ever was" category, there's also a Silverchair song on the 99X playlist. It's like 1994 never ended. I thought their whole "appeal" was that they were a "grunge" (and Australian) version of Hanson?

They're not grunge anymore. They sound like Coldplay now.

So does this mean that there were no heirs to this lineage? That alt-rock's influence, even on people that were ultimately not consuming alt-rock albums, was to restate a certain standard of "authenticity" when one was to undertake doing genre work?

Yes. I think this genre played the same role in alt myth that prog rock played in the punk myth: something to exist in opposition to, and render unfashionable.

This genre is called Corporate Rock. It still sucks.

Oh, and a few "huh, didn't realize they were that above the radar now" moments - Peter, Bjorn, & John, mainly. WTF?

-- Doctor Casino, Wednesday, September 5, 2007 5:05 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Link

i didnt know what this was until it came on lite rock radio at the goodwill in greenville SC and my gf had basically the same response

they were playing it in between like careless whisper and maroon 5

Which is exactly where it belongs, right? That's not a criticism.

Do you guys remember people around that time saying "I listen to progressive music"? (which meant they listened to the "Modern Rock" format radio station circa '90/'91)

these people were O.G. L0u1s J@gg3r

I think this genre played the same role in alt myth that prog rock played in the punk myth: something to exist in opposition to, and render unfashionable.

This genre is called Corporate Rock. It still sucks.

wrong and wrong

The Spin Doctors were on the leading edge of the piccolo snare revival, which was the signature element of 1990s spring break/frat rock. That's why it stands out. Totally different frequency response, it's almost an instrument there's so much tone. There's definitely a pinch of gated reverb on the kit in "Two Princes," but it barely registers - most of the effects are the "Ready for FM radio" stamps, compression and punch. The effects on that guy's vocals, on the other hand. Wow.

One of the other common threads in the songs mentioned: fuckloads of rhythm guitar overdubs ("Life is a Highway," all Matthew Sweet, Spin Doctors, etc.). This is why the Sex Pistols sounded good on record.

I think a good name for a band in this genre would be "Party Snout."

Just discovered on Wikipedia that the guitarist for School of Fish later went on to join the Bringing Down The Horse-era Wallflowers - PERFECTLY traking the transition from Post-Cold-War Rock to "Authentic" Vintage Rock. Gotta love it.

Going on at the same time in platinum-selling pop and rock was the Unplugged phenomenon: acoustic, live, not overdubbed.

Prozac Rock?

Going on at the same time in platinum-selling pop and rock was the Unplugged phenomenon: acoustic, live, not overdubbed.

Good point. Hrm. Perhaps "Unplugged" can be read as an embryonic resistance form that really only makes sense in a time when other things are extremely and visibly Plugged? I wonder how many of the Unplugged artists later went on to make records that were effectively Unplugged anyway - I'm thinking of McCartney here with albums like Flaming Pie.

oh man, the karaoke master totally shot video of that performance of "two princes." now YOU TOO can enjoy this triumphant, voice-cracking performance of love: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=17419162

The Spin Doctors were on the leading edge of the piccolo snare revival, which was the signature element of 1990s spring break/frat rock. That's why it stands out. Totally different frequency response, it's almost an instrument there's so much tone. There's definitely a pinch of gated reverb on the kit in "Two Princes," but it barely registers - most of the effects are the "Ready for FM radio" stamps, compression and punch. The effects on that guy's vocals, on the other hand. Wow.

this is the fucking TRUTH. other big practitioners of the snare tuned so tight it rrriiiiings on rock radio post-Spin Doctors were mostly obvious lite funky ones like 311 and DMB, but the one that always weirded me out was Nickelback, at least on their first big album, "How You Remind Me" and "Too Bad" have insanely high tuned snares that stand out all the more in their nu-grunge thud.

i dunno if this is an example but i saw THE KAISER CHIEFS on tv and it was like funky spin doctors/late 90s modern rock radio shit... i was kinda feelin it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMDcOViViNY

this is the video i saw

^ban

tza/latebloomer what was that rock station out of anderson in the 90s? i think they only played tool, come as you are, and mysterious ways

stfu dom

u need to go back to crying over a fat girl while listening to the eels & get off my case for digging good times rock music

They're not really "good times" music, their entire last album was about how dumb people who live on council estates are.

qf: Defend The Indefensible: The Lyrics to 'I Predict A Riot'

Kaiser Chiefs and Spin Doctors are two quite different kinds of awful.

Yes, isn't it awful how those who hate recent bands writing great melodic songs meet with opposition on ILM these days? Wasn't it so much better back in 2001 when everyone agreed that melodic music should be buried forever and white males with guitars should never again be allowed to make music?

-- Geir Hongro, Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:35 AM (4 months ago) Bookmark Link

^^^only other time Kaisers have ever been defended on ILX

is this like when whiney expected me to be familiar with gym class heroes lyrics

Actually, it's not just Geir, you've got the British National Party agreeing with you as well: http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/news/20060824_bnp.shtml

lyrnyrd skynyrd wanted george wallace for president and eazy e was a republican, who gives a fuck

BNP championing a typically English sounding band is hardly a suprise, is it?

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with sounding typically English. In fact, it's great, as there is no other country that has such a great legacy and such a great typical style.

i think there was a reflective sound in house music from around this period too

Hmmm... what could have happened at the turn of the 90s that people felt good about, I wonder?

i bought a rawkus hoodie?

That's pretty good going, considering the label wasn't founded until 1996.

best episode of quantum leap ever

Al, there's all kinds of pockets and zips on my pants, and they're way too big for me...

"In fact, it's great, as there is no other country that has such a great legacy and such a great typical style."

ouch. completely discounting the land mass that gave birth to the blues, and jazz. nice

I consider Germany a much more important country in the history of music than the US.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Tovenaarsleerling_S_Barth.png

hongro may you be a ho that goes forever unsaved

I'll never know whether to blame Dom or Geir more for derailing what was previously my favorite thread I ever started.

Also, several years late and not really in the genre at all.... but germane to any discussion of Post-Cold-War Rock: Phil Collins's ridiculously upbeat "Dance Into The Light." We are one world - we have-a one voice!

(The production is closer to the overstuffed world-beat of "Circle of Light" than anything on this thread.)

I thought Skynyrd was anti-Wallace. "Boo boo boo!"

Will anyone ever do like a loving, detail-obsessed revival/pastiche record for this sound?

I saw Dada live open up for Uncle Tupelo on the tour after Anodyne came out. I seem to remember them being pretty good actually, but I don't ever remember hearing one of their CDs.

I don't quite know about the huge guitar part as they were a bit more subdued, but I think Del Amtri's "Kiss This Thing Goodbye" fit into this genre. They got brighters and sunnier as they went on, but I think Toad the Wet Sprocket might fit into this too.

actually I think this blows "Black and White" away...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fquGNHiEG-4

Doesn't really fit at all (more I guess period "college rock" generically) but the vibes are so positive! Like a mellowed-out "Dizz Knee Land."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keRmOs3PqK0

Freddy Jones Band - In A Daydream

I'm on like three hours of sleep and can't turn it up loud enough to actually hear anything but I'm pretty sure Rod Stewart's "Forever Young" is involved somehow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGEe_zpddNI

Hrrrrmrmrmr, yeah, I dunno. Much fuller sound than these other things, and no chunky/scratchy rhythm guitar up front. On the other hand, the solo is exactly the kind of legible, arcing sound I hear on these other records, and the clobbering drums come in on the second chorus but good. And overall it's got the same kind of propulsive, "Edge of Seventeen" feeling as some of these.

Great song IMO.

1988 and a bit more countryfried but I love Jerry Harrison's "Rev It Up" for this vibe.

I like many Rod Stewart songs from this period ("Crazy About Her," "Downtown Train," "Lost in You") but "Forever Young" -- ick. And it hasn't gone away.

Never heard that before! Yeah, I buy it.

Euler made the "New Country" connection above and I think that whole area would be interesting to explore. In general (and I am out of my depth here) but it seems like country tries to avoid sounding like it was made by studio robots, as a rule - there's the faith/image that at some point there was a hard-playin', tight backing band that gets together and records. So something like Travis Tritt's "T.R.O.U.B.L.E." starts out sounding like it's going to totally be one of these songs; there's a huge thudding WHAMMMO drum like two seconds in - but then the rest of the band shows up and starts to boogie.

At the same time, I think traces of this whole thing may have survived longer in country than anywhere else - rock went through various phases of sludge and wash and guitars-in-the-red, but clean, bright, super-shiny sounds never entirely went away in country. And you have people like Mutt Lange doing their biggest records way later - "Man! I Feel Like A Woman" is totally the heir of this sound, to the point where they decided to do a Robert Palmer pastiche for the video even though it's not actually a "retro"-styled song.

(that's an xpost)

I love "Forever Young" - but in the way of a song I remember hearing a fair number of times as a kid and then never again until, like, last week. Where are you hearing it? I must go to different dentist's offices or something.

I hear it at least twice a week on A/C and oldie stations.

Oh yeah -- country is where rock's been at since at least the nineties

Wow, had no idea it had any shelf life at all. Crazy how much variety there still is in those things in the Clear Channel age.

I think Sheryl Crow's second album had a through-line from this stuff (though the percussion is more '90s americana).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khrx-zrG460

Hmmm, not entirely hearing that one, but maybe someone more up on Mitchell Froom can piece together the arc there?

Mitchell Froom's trick is to create "unconventional" sounds in a pop context.

Belinda Carlisle's hits or Bryan Adams' Waking Up The Neighbours material to thread

Teenage Fanclub's "Star Sign" would fit this mold, rite?

Also, perhaps, Jellyfish - "That Is Why", maybe the La's "There She Goes". If it had arrived a few years later, I'd include XTC's "Mayor of Simpleton" (their biggest US hit, despite the lyric about not being able to write a big hit song). If it had arrived a few years earlier, Hootie's "Time".

I've always liked this microgenre, whatever it may be called.

Wow, right on about Bryan Adams. "Can't Stop This Thing We Started" and "All I Want Is You" are definitely right in there. Trending a little rootsier but yeah. Will have to dig into the other last couple things, not familiar with 'em.

Would this count?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sOjdusDUzE

Right on!

Richard Marx is one of those guys that was really popular and all over the radio for few years, yet I can't remember any of his songs

This was one of those things, no? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCy13kjj13M

Wow, never heard this before. I think it fits. Sounds like another one that started out as a different kind of band and found themselves sounding Post-Cold-War in the studio. Some overlap with the clean-sounding, poppier side of college/alt rock, e.g. Gin Blossoms.

It's nowhere near the "Joyride" / "Life Is A Highway" sound, but another entry in the "college bands ending up with a way boxier sound than you'd expect" category: The Pursuit of Happiness. "Cigarette Dangles," from 1993, sounds like a total throwback next to the general palette of grunge and "alternative" by that point, especially compared to the 1989 "I'm An Adult Now" and "Hard to Laugh" (as "produced" as those are). Sure, it gets a little less machinic once the bass shows up, and the solo feels "live" - but that whittled-down riff, that loud snare, the flanged backing vocals... weird, weird sound.

Obviously there are a million college/underground bands that got kind of unsympathetic recordings in the late 80s/early 90s, and I wouldn't lump them all in here (esp. as the "That Eighties Drum Sound" thread already gets into this a lot more). Was just listening to Pylon's Chain for example, which is what got me thinking about this again.

You know, there were two versions of "I'm an Adult Now"--(or does your specifying date mean you know that?)--& the first was a lot, well, rawer: at least my poseur 16-yr-old self strongly preferred it...

The mean streets of mid-80s Toronto; no doubt the authenticity-response was triggered in my still vulnerable, malleable brain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6zMtTQix28

https://youtu.be/J6zMtTQix28

One more try; yeah, I don't post here much...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/J6zMtTQix28?rel=0"; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ha, yeah, I did read that there was an earlier version but foolishly didn't even bother to go look it up and listen to it.

it's not 90s, but quite possibly my least favorite song ever is Timbuk 3 - "gotta wear shades" or whatever it's called

so glad i didn't graduate high school in the late 80s

*from*

this is the best genre, are there contemporary bands reviving this sound yet?

does U2's "Mysterious Ways" fit this?

Redd Kross's brilliant album Third Eye meets the criteria perfectly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2HWkH7FDY

I don’t know who Bob Standard is, but good posts ITT. Also, tipsy mothra’s long post re: r&b crossover (“without pushing it too hard…”) is terrific.

Don’t think I saw the Cranberries mentioned, but their debut seems pretty obviously to fit the trend… as does R.E.M.’s Out of Time album.

(or maybe Buck’s leads aren’t huge enough?)

I guess those LPs I just mentioned were more of on the “alt” side of the spectrum, embracing the era’s bright production sounds and positive vibes but with a subtler approach and minus some of the Big Rock moves. They’re only a few degrees to the left of Spin Doctors and INXS, though.

hmmm! the guitar sound on "Mysterious Ways" definitely puts it in the ballpark, but overall the mix is maybe a little too moody and full of stuff to fully qualify. in my mind the drumming is also kind of too interesting, but i'll have to listen to it later and see if that holds up.

Out of Time has the positive vibes for sure, but is missing that loud boxy rhythm guitar sound... which i now feel is essentially descended from Boston?? "Cool the Engines" in particular seems to have a few of the pieces in place, especially the very clean, empty-feeling soundscape.

im enjoying this thread but it has to be stated that “cigarette dangles” is an incredibly terrible song with an even worse video

i wonder to what extent geggy tah slots in here. also making a connection between the rhythm guitar vibe here and the later 3eb-1975 energy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAina4g3xkU

Haha, that was just every big pop hit from 1990 to the spring of 1992, wasn't it? Minus ballads?

I'm certain that's the ad Dr C refers to in the OP. I only know most of these songs from the clips in that ad.

Been meaning to start a thread of huge hit songs that I only know short clips of from compilation CD commercials, there are lots

I do remember people talking about how this deal was going to be the sound of the 1990s before Nevermind really hit. Although you can count me as one of the people who thanks Nirvana, on balance, it was definitely an interesting moment.

xp o_O I think every one of those songs are permanently burned into my brain from middle school.

*is

Something always sounded uncomfortably contrived to me about a lot of these artists, even at the time. Like it was hard for me to imagine musicians organically getting together and being like "THIS. THIS IS THE MUSIC WE FEEL THE BURNING NEED TO MAKE."

lol. yeah, hard to entirely picture a band jamming around in a living room and coming up with most of these arrangements. goes back to my reading that a lot of these may be bands who walked in the door with an incompletely-formed sound, and ended up getting pressed through a very odd combination of individually industry-standard production decisions.

"Cigarette Dangles" is pretty catchy in a weird way, and kind of noteworthy as a BDSM anthem from the perspective of a submissive male (i think?). i also appreciate that the lead guy has approximately the cool-guy presence of the dude from the Encyclopedia Britannica commercials. the video, with the words flying every which way, is a SERIOUS artifact of its time, but not bad i think?

the "Living in the 90s" commercial IS a pretty good match for the mix of songs! there are a few i don't really associate with these kind of ads ("What's Up Doc?" especially). my guess for the one i was thinking of in the OP is maybe a one-disc version by the same company, or some other repackaging of the material, cause clearly it'd have to be under the same licensing deal to also have "Joyride," "Right Here Right Now," and "Unbelievable." hmmm.

oddly, while i could easily imagine a time-traveling Geggy Tah ending up on that same CD, or a viable mashup of "Whoever You Are" with the vocals from "Unbelievable," they still feel like a really different thing to me. maybe cause i owned Sacred Cow and tried valiantly to really like it. they definitely had one foot in the turn-of-the-90s, pre-grunge "college-rock" world, and some attempts at jazziness or jam-band moves.... but otherwise their sound owes a lot to the mainstream of 1996-era alt-rock and maybe Pavement. see the guitars on "Lotta Stuff" and the chorus of "Century Plant." pretty far from "Life is a Highway" i think. but Third Eye Blind is an amazing connection IMHO --- that opening guitar barrage on "Semi-Charmed Life," which I've always heard as a sort of a pop-punk or alterna-power-pop thing, is pretty clearly descended from this whole era! wow.

“Semi-Charmed Life” and “Two Princes” are basically the same groove.

yeah, i buy that. and two big ol' hits!

How about Savage Garden (“I Want You”) as another late-’90s example of this sound? I guess they’re basically Roxette…

Lol yeah I always get those two mixed up.

Xxp I can't believe 'Living in the 90's' isn't THE one!! It's an odd name for a comp that came out in 1995, like an in vain attempt to encapsulate the present. Most of my friends were listening to Bush and Smashing Pumpkins at the time. "Nirvanaless 90s rock history-that-might-have-been" was so OTM.

Like, whatever I thought "90's music" meant in 1995, it certainly wasn't that.

Ha, from the ad, I was assuming it was from 92, like a compilation of big recent radio hits for casual listeners.

I like the sight edge of irony in the otherwise straightforward ad, when they put on shades and say “…and timeless legends” (or something) for Vanilla Ice. That’s very ’90s!

I had picked up two volumes of "now that's what I call music" ca. 92-93 while visiting relatives in the UK. Those tapes are exactly what you describe, big recent radio hits indiscriminately compiled for casual listeners. This is something else. They really seem like they're trying to define an era prematurely. The music already sounded old, I def didn't realize how recent most of it was.

Xp

I'm PRETTY sure the CD ad I'm thinking of is indeed from circa 1992, but it's also very possible my memory's playing tricks on me at this point, I have no idea really. for all i know my brain just mushed up "Living in the 90s" with two other ads and ended up with a comp that doesn't exist.

Savage Garden is an interesting reference. If I had to connect them to an 90s compilation it would be Pure Moods, though. The guitar tone isn't a bad fit for this thread, but it's SO buried in the mix, and absent for large stretches - the propulsion is coming almost entirely from the drums, keyboards and bass. I wonder if one of the countless CD-single remixes brings the guitars more to the front.

how did we miss this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZUz4C6kqk

"King of Wishful Thinking" barely has any guitar in it at all! The horns are claiming the headliner role here. Once again I recognize the stylistic adjacencies, but I worry we're at risk of drifting into a general "uncool turn-of-the-90s pop" thread.

Alannah Myles' first single, that would eventually be overshadowed by Black Velvet, would fit, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOrMzBewG0

wow. never heard that before. yeah totally! the chorus is definitely like, the "steamy" version of this sound. the verses sound like a Microsoft Songsmith auto-generated track, or like the "untrained schmoe attempts to restore priceless painting" version of the Talking Heads. - what a weird mix/arrangement!

Lots of George Clanton's stuff mines this sound. The new song is maybe too breakbeat-y to properly qualify, but the vibe is right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLemAUhT3Yc

kinda struggling to hear it tbh. but definitely an interesting set of 90s things to revive!

Yeah I don't hear it in the George Clanton track at all.

The closest thing I could think of as being a modern example of this would be Paramore's Ain't It Fun, but that's like 8 years old and also pulling in some other sounds as well.

Vanilla Ice has a track like this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckFy3v4Fhr8

Road to riches? More like highway to hell!

okay that's amazing. like clearly they were going for a Rick Rubin thing with "Highway to Hell" but ended up on "Life is a Highway" instead. love it.

i guess closer to Jesus Jones with the busy, rave (?)-influenced beat... but the highway thing was just too compelling

This was a minor hit and a recurrent grocery store classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pavmG-YKLM

I posted about how much I liked the album in the Soda Stereo thread, but Dynamo definitely has some tracks that fit this vibe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2miCyVySnI

What was the message of "Black or White"? I just looked up the lyrics and ... I'm confused.

huh, never heard of Jude Cole before, though i'd bet i probably heard that song as a child. sort of the midpoint between this genre and "roots rock" I guess? with an extra splash of VH1 crooner energy.

apparently Cole started out in Moon Martin's backing band --- limited Googling suggests he may have played on "Rolene," but not the original "Bad Case of Loving You." following his late-80s moment in the spotlight, he went on to start a record label with Kiefer Sutherland (should have named it Stubble Records), marry Michelle Pfeiffer's sister Lori, and become manager and songwriter for the band Lifehouse, although apparently he has nothing to do with their one big hit.

They had two big hits!

Jude Cole was involved with the second one, per wikipedia

Yep.

I might hear "Time For Letting Go" among Cole singles more often in grocery stores.

Cole also had this Soulboi move in the early'90s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2KPsBKvi8I

Is this too raw?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFcGRQROIt0

Dambuilders: "Shrine"

Joan As Policewoman is the violinist.

wow, i never registered that Lifehouse had a career post-"Hanging on a Moment." listening to "You and Me," it sounds just barely familiar, I must have heard it around somewhere along the way. Just wasn't plugged into this kind of stuff in 2005 I guess.

i'm digging "Shrine." too raw for this sound as-is, but seems like a great indie classic to me. there's definitely an alternate universe where they got signed and a producer seized on those big rhythm guitar blurts as the basis for a streamlined hit in this mode.

I can see Michael Penn's "No Myth" as a possible early example of this sound (from 1989). It's got the gated drum energy and big melodic guitar, though the tone is a bit more melancholic.

Another 1989 possible example: "So Alive" by Love and Rockets. Big gated drum groove.

"No Myth" feels like a good example of the "acoustic" version of this style, again towards the roots-rock end of thing. So weird and alien and overproduced once you start paying attention to the mix. One of nabisco's early comments continues to haunt me: "like a drum machine and a Very Corny Bassist playing out of a karaoke box while some guy played rhythm Strat as if there were actually a band around." Also feels like someone involved was going for a "Beatlesy" sound, or maybe a Cloud Nine sound. Bob Clearmountain does seem to have been involved.

"So Alive" also def in the general wheelhouse, closer to the INXS end of things. Just needs somebody to come in and paste a big slab of Rockman guitar strumming over it... you could almost just mix in the "3 Strange Days" part and get away with it.

"No Myth" and "Praying for Time" invented Sugar Ray and Sheryl Crow.

I think this fits in -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWCWeOomKc

That's a great one.

King's X also big on the sunny/crunchy guitar-driven stomp vibe, e.g. this minor 1990 hit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzEPkbPgdn0

en vogue "free your mind" belongs in this category imo

Haha I loved that King's X song at the time.

omg is "Planes" one of these?

Haha I loved that King's X song at the time.

Still like it tbh

This also popped into my head -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVXjBMK3EkI

omg is "Planes" one of these?

Planes?

sensual aircraft

en vogue "free your mind" belongs in this category imo

― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:25 AM (thirty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

not that i totally understand the parameters of this thread but this song strikes me way more as “r&b + hair metal hangover a la ‘black cat’ by janet” or “featuring slash (even though the song doesn’t feature slash)”

tho if “black or white” counts then maybe i’m wrong

R.E.M.'s "Stand" shares a bit of this DNA.

Collective Soul were briefly mentioned upthread but they sort of inherited the mantle of this sound moving further into the 90s, no?

No! (xp re "Stand")

Yeah I think "Precious Declaration" at least seems to carry this in its sound. Not as sure about their other stuff.

i was just about to mention Collective Soul, and Tonic, in response to hearing King's X's guitar breaks. very direct line of succession IMO.

King's X is a bit different from what I thought this thread was about tbh but if that fits, how about solo Robert Plant like "Tie Dye on the Highway"? "Tall Cool One" might even fit by the narrower definition?

I think I'm coming around to thinking of this unnamed genre as having a pretty small, exclusive "core" of perfect fits, surrounded by various hybrids which are individually more numerous (roots-rock version, clubby/dancey versions) and brushing up against the New Jack Swing solar system also.

To my ears, "Tie Dye on the Highway" lacks too many of the common threads and late 80s production tropes to qualify, but "Tall Cool One" with its booming empty space, makes sense for one of the satellite categories. who is that inventing Marilyn Manson's vocal delivery in the spoken-word section at 1:45?

speaking totally as a layperson when it comes to production, it's hard for me to be too precise about this, but i feel like one of the unifying threads could be producers going ALL in on gating sounds, maybe also something to do with the switch to digital equipment...? the tightest-fitting examples are very very "clean" - sounds decay really quickly and don't overlap and wash together; the sound does not feel like a live band. so for example, even on something as comparatively artificial as "Tall Cool One," Plant knows he's trying to hearken back to Johnny Burnette's "Honey Hush" (right??) and instinctively wants to sound like a bar band that's really cooking, really boogie-ing, perhaps even choogling. the desire for an updated radio-ready sound is cutting across that, to make something that is unmistakably of its time and very weird. but it's still - again, to my ears - distinct from Roxette on "Joyride," where they seem really actively excited about crafting a fresh modern pop-rock sound for the 90s, and every piece of it sounds like it's proud to be pasted in from a different recording session.

"This and That", Michael Penn's follow-up single to "No Myth", has more vigorous rhythm guitar, and less of the vintage keyboard retro elements.

I'd say that the more jangly the rhythm guitar (R.E.M., Cranberries), the further you get from this sound. Appropriately, "Pop Song 89" is probably as close as R.E.M. came to this.

agreed on jangle and "Pop Song 89." would be fascinating to get the isolated tracks of that one and try to remix it with Berry's drums massively overclocked and punching through the mix. "This and That" is pretty close to the mark for an acoustic variant!

Semisonic > Mister Mr. > The Call

(Though Semisonic is late 90s so is more of a piece with the Goos etc.)

Your comments make sense, Dr. Casino.

After checking the video and a couple of live clips from around that time, I'm pretty sure the deep spoken part on "Tall Cool One" was the keyboardist and co-writer Phil Johnstone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey14j7c9Phw

(1:45)

How about Semisonic antecedents Trip Shakespeare?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkOepnPJS3o

The "positive vibes" are as essential a part of this aesthetic as the bright, clean, separated mix, the gated drums and the buzzing guitar. It's like there was a brief moment of euphoria after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when innocence, happiness and hope for the future could be expressed lyrically without seeming trite or corny. That moment quickly wore off and the rest of the '90s overcompensated by fetishizing an angst and cynicism that in retrospect seem a bit out of proportion to the way things were going in the country at the time.

U2's Zooropa is the transition between those two times ^^.

The European Union forming in January 1993 is another part of this transition: the optimism of peacetime, a new level of cultural homogenization, and the pushback from right-wing/nativist movements.

My friend just spun this on his TwitchStream

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGSHIidlesQ

Mock Turtles: "Can You Dig It?" (1990)

That song reminds me that Byrds-esque jangle (most likely via REM) was a major ingredient of this micro-genre.

no one mentioned freedom 90 yet? that's a big one imo

Horribly bad album title I've always been confused by turns out to have horribly bad origin.

Schubert Dip is the debut album by British rock band EMF, released on Parlophone Records on 7 May 1991.[1] It features the worldwide hit single "Unbelievable" which reached number one on the US Billboard Hot 100. The name of the album is a pun on the name of the popular sweet sherbet dip and the 19th-century composer Franz Schubert.

Woah, that Mock Turtles song is pretty cool! Definitely towards the indie end of things but the impulse towards a clear, ringing, booming sound is there, and certainly the Positive Vibes. Get one really assertive commercial producer in the room and it could have been the theme song to a Friends-wannabe show. Apparently Fatboy Slim remixed it in 2003, but to the extent that he changed anything it seems to have been to muddy things up further with busy percussion, spacey whooshy noises, and turning the organ way up in the mix.

Another single from the same album, "Strings and Flowers," similarly straddles the thread's core and what I think of as Britpop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZeohb-kpI

How influential was REM on British bands of this era? I would have assumed Johnny Marr as a more important source than Pete Buck, but I have no idea.

How influential was REM on British bands of this era?

That's an interesting question. There are tantalizing bits of evidence scattered around the web. It seems that they weren't very well known in the UK until their breakthrough hit 'The One I Love', which went top 20 in the UK, though not for lack of trying. They actually recorded Fables of the Reconstruction in England, and toured on it in the UK, but apparently without much traction.

The band's third album, Fables of the Reconstruction (1985), demonstrated a change in direction. Instead of Dixon and Easter, R.E.M. chose producer Joe Boyd, who had worked with Fairport Convention and Nick Drake, to record the album in England. The band members found the sessions unexpectedly difficult, and were miserable due to the cold winter weather and what they considered to be poor food; the situation brought the band to the verge of break-up.

https://classicrock.fandom.com/wiki/R.E.M.

Also found this amusing early interview where they disavow any direct Byrds influence:

As for frequent comparisons to the Byrds, (Buck) declares, "I probably listen to people that stole from the Byrds more often than the Byrds. I've got one Byrds album, and it's the one that doesn't sound anything like them -- Sweetheart of the Rodeo -- because I love Gram Parsons. The Byrds are OK, but none of us ever paid much attention to them."

Instead they point to the Velvet Underground and country music as major influences.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/20/rem-rocks-backpages-classic-interview

I like the careful wording of "what they considered to be poor food".

It is interesting that the left not just the South, but the U.S., to record their big Southern Mythos album.

(I actually don't think I knew, or at least remembered, that – I think I assumed Joe Boyd came to the U.S. for the sessions.)

How influential was REM on British bands of this era?
That's an interesting question. There are tantalizing bits of evidence scattered around the web. It seems that they weren't very well known in the UK until their breakthrough hit 'The One I Love', which went top 20 in the UK, though not for lack of trying.

It only became a hit *after* they'd broken through with Out of Time. It was re-released in either 1991 or 1992. Their first hit was Orange Crush - not massive, but definitely top 40 because they got on Top of the Pops.

Yes, I remember that one: "Nice and cool on a hot summer day, that was REM with ORANGE CRUSH!!"

1) That's not what the song was about
2) Even if it was, did it need that level of explanation?

I forget the presenter, but I don't think he was on much after that.

The One I Love was taken from the non-US Best Of which IRS released on the back of Out of Time - top 20 in the autumn of '91

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLCobKFPxQk

Never heard the Fatboy Slim remix of that Mock Turtles song but the Steve Proctor piano / breakbeat / house mix is pure sweet MDMA. Nothing to do with the genre in question except the ridiculously positive vibes.

It only became a hit *after* they'd broken through with Out of Time.

Interesting. So I guess that's another point in favor of them having little influence on UK bands in the 80s.

R.E.M. were big UK sellers the faster their American popularity waned.

Even though it’s more on the enigma/proto-trip hop side of thing, for some reason I keep thinking of moodfood by moodswings (feat the cover of “state of independence” with Chrissy Hynde). there’s some big sampled drums on there though. and I get major “paisley shirt of synthetic fabric” vibes from it. Feel like “worldbeat” (ugh) stuff runs parallel to this thread’s remit… the vague we are all one people, love the planet vibes, idk

So I guess that's another point in favor of them having little influence on UK bands in the 80s.

I mean, they were definitely known in Britain in the 80s by the kind of people that would have been in indie guitar groups. But they wouldn't have been known by, say, your aunt until 1991/92.

Direct from tonight's TwitchStream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9TsXzOkoMc

Ian McCulloch: "Honey Drip"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o20_aSVM9Rk

Baby Animals: "Painless" (1992, singer is/was married to Nuno Bettencourt)

never heard that before! what an amazing '1992' combination of elements.

I remember them - when I was doing more music business work, I somehow ended up on the promo list of their US agent when their first album was released. IIRC the singer was on the short list to take over vocals in INXS.

Last time I listened to the Mock Turtles' Can You Dig It? it struck me that it probably isn't all that different from, idk, the Primitives or (at a push) Transvision Vamp. Maybe baggy, and Ian Brown in particular, opened up a new place for that specific brand of bright UK guitar pop could hide once it stopped being so popular. Or maybe I'm making that up.

CTRL+F isn't turning up any mention of James' Sit Down, Chesney Hawkes' The One and Only, or anything by Voice of the Beehive. Are they took UK-specific?

US here: Don't know any of those save "Sit Down" ... which I only know via a mixtape from my first girlfriend (who was British). Nice song! I'd buy that it shares some DNA with this thread and certainly with the Mock Turtles wing, tho that whole area is more enveloping and organic-sounding than the compressed, hyper-punchy "uptempo rhythm machines" that make up the core.

Would this be a bit closer? This was the main VOTB song I was thinking of and it has something of a late 80s overhang feel. The crunchy drums do most of the work and the guitars decorate. Although the guitar leads aren't really that big.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m3C1K5b5VI

The Chesney song might be a bit too 'organic' sounding, although not in the indie way - it's more AOR power ballad (albeit a very uptempo one). But it feels like it has similar make-up.

Feargal Sharkey - A Good Heart ticks most of the boxes too?

The only reason I have heard Voice of the Beehive and Transvision Vamp are because of the radio station I listened to throughout high school. IDK what to call it but my friends & I made a playlist and it's an accurate simulation of listening to the station bitd if you put it on shuffle.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5xdq8zS6zbJDGlC8yHu1Pq?si=93f98317da074cb5

submitting OAR - hey girl for consideration. not a perfect match formally to the OP but I think the ethos is there

Heard Kyrie Eleison in CVS this AM.

The long intro giving way to when the drums enter is ecstatic. Kinda dated synth sound but that track is slammin.