An Accusation!

anne - good ploy or dya meenitt ?

No. of 'Classic or Dud' threads started in 2002 (and categorised by the moderators) = 110 approx.
Of these, no. about black people making music post 1978 = 10 approx.

Anyway, who are these artists of whom you speak that are not being represented on ILX? Because I want to hear them (& right now ILX is my avenue of broadening my taste, in conjunction w/ some historical books and whatever the radio plays).

My other comments, v.quickly cos I have a report to finish and shopping to do - ILM has a big bias towards how the listener consumes music and experiences it, rather than how the artist perhaps is marketed or fits into wider media culture. So the minstrel argument is kind of off-base because nobody here actually is I think listening to, say, Ludacris, and thinking "Ludacris is a representative of blackness". Because I think most of the white people here don't really think much about 'blackness' as a category, whether because they don't think racially or because they're complacent, probably a chunk of both.

In other words we're not consuming Ludacris as a cartoon of blackness, we're consuming him as a cartoon of violence and sexuality who happens to be black in the same way that Eminem or Vince Neil happen to be white. And if consuming cartoons is a bad thing in itself, then pretty much most of pop history is wiped out - the Afro- delia pushed by Outkast, the sensitive womanhood pushed by Alicia, the coolness pushed by the Strokes, the party-ness pushed by WK, are cartoons as well as all the myriad 'realnesses' of hip-hop. And to this suburban Oxford listener, ALL of it is a huge multi-frame cartoon of America. My hunch is that saying 'minstrel show' in the way you mean it loses its sting because all of popular culture is already a 'minstrel show' - stereotypes are presented, exaggerated, sold back, and sometimes yes this makes for incredible art.

(I suppose what I'm saying, too, is - choose better targets. Black/white music is one of the less problematic areas of ILM, certainly of my music taste too. For instance I hate Alicia Keys, who is black, and I hate Dido, who is white, in exactly the same way - because what's actually going on is a projection and rejection by me not of blackness but of aspects of 'the feminine' (or the qualities presented as 'feminine' to me). And my current love of the trashiness and vigour of Bollywood is much much much more racially based and racially suspect than any of the rap/R&B discourse we get on ILM.)

Sterling: I will try to answer you. but I don't really know what you've heard. I will say that I think So So Def is the most ignored record label on ILM.

OTM!!!!!!!

Oops, I sure did. How the hell did that happen? (My wife and I were just talking the other day about how great it is that Mary J. is making great music again.)

Even if we are thinking racially about music, the minstrel-question in its American hip-hop manifestation merits barely a 'pfft' in my everyday life and listening compared to the ways Jamaican culture is racially interpreted and transmitted here - and the reggae and dancehall discussions here, while generally pretty basic and sparsely- attended, don't fall nearly so much into the traps she's outlining, I think (mostly because they're basic and sparsely-attended, granted).

i) ILM isn't an American message board, either.

ii) You didn't specify "American" in either complaint, you specified "black people".

You're right, though, I don't have much to add to your specific points other than 'your analysis doesn't work except in an American context, which ILM isn't purely' - and I've made that point so I'll duck out now.

i don't completely buy yr violence argt, but that's because *i* always talk abt the pistols in this regard (and a bit eminem, tho not the latter recently at all much)

the minstrel commnent was a bit of a red herring, i do believe it though. Tom, do you think black artists are better suited for exaggerations of violence and stupidity?

No: pretty much the only way I can counter this is by listing 'white' artists and styles I like because of the cartoon violence and/or stupidity - Andrew WK, G'n'R, some other punk and rock, happy hardcore, gabba techno.

if not then why do you like quiet inoffensive indie rock as representations but not the rap and R&B counterparts?

But I don't. I like the Smiths and Belle And Sebastian and loathe vast vast tracts of other indie music. And for further grist to my it's-not-blackness-it's-Americanness mill, I *do* like "quiet inoffensive" hip-hop by black people, it just happens to often be by black British people because, as with the indie I do listen to, I'm looking for recognition of shared experience in the representation as well as portrayal of alien experience.

if Jill Scott is the Janeane Garofalo of R&B (left-of- mainstream quirky "fat" girl), shouldn't that mean you would like her a lot more? or does that only work with Missy? (but then there's the Reynolds thing again)

No, because for one thing I don't like a lot of Missy's stuff beyond the singles. But also that's not how it works - I don't listen purely for tokenism or 'representation' and nor I suspect does anyone else. This is the kind of logic Ethan was using the other week when he was 'arguing' that because people here liked pretty melodies and 4/4 beats in one form of music (hip-hop, according to him), we 'ought to' like them in another form of music (techno) - you concentrate on a similarity and ignore the differences which might actually be the determinants of liking. I would be more specific with Garaofolo or Scott but I don't know the former's music at all and the latter's I barely know.

Wait, my humorometer is broken. Are you kidding here or did you misintepret the analogy (Jill Scott -> black musicians = Janine Garafolo -> white actresses)?

I disagree.

...you concentrate on a similarity and ignore the differences which might actually be the determinants of liking. I would be more specific with Garaofolo or Scott but I don't know the former's music at all and the latter's I barely know.

but, if you're looking for resonance and relatability in "alien" black music, why doesn't "safe" R&B provide this? does recognition extend only to "this hip-hop sounds like wacky dance, but they mention some UK town names"? if, as in the Smiths and Belle & Sebastian, musical "unoriginality" in can be combined with overly romantic and self-obsessed emotional content to create something you enjoy, why doesn't this work for nu-soul? or am I misrepresenting what you enjoy about these forms yet again?

I can't speak for B&S, but I'm pretty sure that the only romance going on in the Smiths ouevre is the Moz's romance with his own narcissism.

Not just a wind up, but a brilliant one! Thread of the month!

if we are to take canada (my country) as an example, less than 10% of the canadian population is black. of that 10% people of african descent, only a certain percentage would be musicians. of that certain percentage, how many will have released records that would reach my ears? what we have here is a fairly small number. i don't think that i can be labelled as someone who dismisses, discredits, or patronizes black music simply because (again speaking in canadian terms) it's not something i'm exposed to as directly. it must be said that i don't think there's any "record company" conspiracy to keep african-american people down, because if anything record companies and the media have long realized that black music is extremely marketable across all audiences.

part of the problem of misrepresentation of black music would lie with the media, but then they're only reflecting what they think the tastes of the predominantly white (remember, this is canada) audience would be. nickleback sells better here because we're all a bunch of mulleted, ford-truck-driving hicks.

i don't necessarily like how entities like muchmusic decide that i would be more interested in nickleback than moka only (two canadian examples), but that's their gamble ... they're gambling that i (the lowest-common-denominator viewer) will be most interested in music that i can "relate" to, and in most cases people do prefer music that they can relate to. in actuality i relate far more to moka only's jazzy, intelligent, urban hip hop than i do to nickleback's christian- themed budweiser commercial mullet rock, but i'm in the minority for the majority. sorry for the sentence structure ...

anyway, if nobody can be faulted for their preference of music that they can relate to, why do you seem so shocked at a lack of representation of black music on ILM? this board is comprised mostly of britons, americans, aussies, kiwis and canadians (sorry if i missed anyone) and last time i checked those countries were mostly white. there is therefore a higher probability that someone in one of these predominantly anglo-saxon countries would be interested in music that speaks to them about things that they feel in their lives, and maybe things that speak to their shared cultural memory. although i really enjoy most hip hop, r&b, jazz and other black music, some of it totally goes over my head. when i put on someone like missy elliot, i can't understand a word she's saying and i can't figure out what she's even talking about. even if i do settle into it and figure out what it's all about - i JUST DON'T GET IT! if i put on sonic youth it all makes total sense to me. the rhythm, the aesthetic sensibilities, even their bloody clothing. sonic youth are white, and i'm white. missy elliot is black and i'm not black. i know it's awful to say it, but is it so wrong for me to like something that makes me feel like it's okay to be me?

ultimately i'm not sure where i'm going with this (probably around in circles -- i have a monosodium glutamate headache) but i guess if there was a message board in zimbabwe or kenya that was bitching about the lack of postings about the strokes or death cab for cutie (the whitest people i could think of offhand) i guess i wouldn't understand either.

as a footnote i'd say that from a musicological standpoint what is "black" and "white" trades places very often and ultimately gets stirred around so much that your complaints about alicia keys et all will be completely irrelevant in twenty years. the whitest music i can think of right now is jazz crimes being perpetrated everywhere by upper-middle-class white men in turtlenecks, round glasses, and volvos. jazz is black music, right? maybe nothing is so simple and maybe we should look to how different cultures contribute to music as a whole, instead of the dumb little genres that get replaced anyway!

But Sterling was the one who brought up Janine Garafolo. I was just agreeing with him. Also, you're treating Anne as if she were an American, but she's posting from a German email address (which kind of bolsters the validity of the Janeane Garofalo [note corrected spelling, I is an idiot] comparison on a global level).

IMDB entry for Janeane; are you saying that "Reality Bites", "The Truth About Cats And Dogs" and "Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion" were never released in the UK, Tom? (Not that this has anything to do with the main point, heh.)

Why? Key word - "purely" - tokenism and representation plays a part but you seem to be making it the guiding force in musical choice.

but, if you're looking for resonance and relatability in "alien" black music, why doesn't "safe" R&B provide this? does recognition extend only to "this hip-hop sounds like wacky dance, but they mention some UK town names"?

No, because mostly UK hip-hop doesn't have wacky dance influences - it sticks doggedly to a fairly 'undie' musical blueprint, which is partly why it doesn't get much attention here (that and people like your glib characterisation of it as lists of town names). The "originality" question you've brought into this post is a red herring.

if, as in the Smiths and Belle & Sebastian, musical "unoriginality" in can be combined with overly romantic and self-obsessed emotional content to create something you enjoy, why doesn't this work for nu-soul? or am I misrepresenting what you enjoy about these forms yet again?

Yes. For one thing "unoriginality" is a red herring here. When I first listened to the Smiths I'd never heard anything like it musically as well as lyrically, so for me it carried a huge originality-kick. Belle And Sebastian also aren't - or weren't - quite as easily placeable as you suggest, though obviously when I heard them I wasn't exactly surprised. Secondly, "overly romantic and self-obsessed emotional content" - if we are using the originality argument, the perspective the Smiths brought to indie rock *was* original, the romantic abject loser thing didn't happen much in alt- rock before Morrissey, but it did happen in soul all the time.

So the answer is that yes I do find these resonances in soul, just not so far much in nu-soul. That may well be because I'm not looking hard enough.

This is too simplistic because it assumes that a person's sense of identity is always tied to their skin color. For instance, I identify a lot more with someone like Don Byron who is politically aware, musically innovative, etc., than with, say, Eminem, even though we're both white.

Ooh, Tom. I MUST find some Angie Stone for you.

btw i think the rhetorical schmindie::nu-soul point is BRILLIANT anne, i don't want to demolish it AT ALL... however i don't think it works on a strange vs comfortable graph exactly (or at least, of that's the graph being wheeled out by an "i like indie i hate nu- soul" apologist, then they are kidding themselves...)

"New" ILM: U2 were good until the 90s, strong melodies, gorgeous guitar work. but then they got pompous and now I can mock them mercilessly on the basis that I used to like them. Nu-Soul is bad because it's boring, I like Big Pimpin and Get Ur Freak On though because it's fun to put on mix- tapes after the White Stripes and jokey indie electro-revivalism.

Progenitor of nu-soul: Me'Shell Ndegeocello.

Also your schema Anne isn't currently factoring in ppl who are doing interesting/innovative things in either genre but who I (or 'an ILM poster') don't like.

(a trump card but on whose side?)

Huh?

Not what I'm doing - I'm saying I can get stuff out of soul to demolish the racial context (that you seem to have dropped for the moment). I'm then saying nu-soul isn't currently giving me that. If it's an 'influence' thing it's because nu-soul sounds more like 70s soul, which I've never enjoyed much, than 60s soul, which I have.

we know what actual soul artists think of nu-soul, does that matter?

Not to me, no.

is this another Beach-Boys-are-good but indie-that-wants-to-be-the- Beach-Boys is bad thing?

Spoken like a true Elephant Six fan. No, it's not really.

why does everyone want to play influence police and respect only the "true originals"?

"Everyone" doesn't. If I can spot a specific influence too quickly then yeah I get bored more quickly but only because it's like the track's been pre-played, so it feels like you're listening to a song for the 12th time not the 1st. Sometimes this initial feeling turns out to be completely wrong, sometimes it never goes away. Also - see Smiths stuff above - it depends what you hear first. But just because automatic respect for 'the originals' is nonsense it doesn't follow that all respect for the originals is automatic.

i keep asking that and everyone looks at me funny

so when it got picked up on i decided this was my chance to play devils advocate a bit without everyone saying 'oh there goes ethan again', or countering anything i say with previous points of mine. i don't agree with a lot of what i said, i mean like a LOT, but i do think black artists, or artists working in the hiphop/r&b form itself, are held to higher standards than white, or indie/rock/etc artists are, on both 'new' and 'old' ilm. a lot of this is cultural bias, when you grow up on indie and get into other music later you still have a residual fondness for the former while expecting the latter to shock and amaze still, so of course the inverse is true for those starting with rap/r&b. i guess this sort of turns my entire point into another 'ilm is too indie' rant which isn't what i'm really distressed about (not that i'm even distressed) but it's an unfair weight worth talking about.

Eek! Sorry Ethan! I'm not, honestly. I got annoyed cos I stayed to argue rather than do my shopping and now I've no milk.

I think this is somewhat bogus. first of all, it definitely isn't a question of race. second, this hiphop/r&b form is actually massively popular right now. It is the dominant mainstream genre now in fact (at least in the US). There is always a reaction against current mainstream stuff in elitist/critic type circles such as ILM (reasons for why i'm sure have been hashed over before but it probably can be attributed to psychology). So if "artists working in the hiphop/r&b form itself, are held to higher standards..." it is actually only a result of their general success.

AS for myself, i have concrete and non-race related reasons why I don't enjoy most current r'n'b hiphop nu-soul, whatever. I find the vocal stylings quite affected and overwrought. I don't the general lack of actual instruments (ie production techniques). I don't have these problems with traditional soul/r'n'b, some of which I quite enjoy. Of course some of it was quite mainstream in it's day, so who knows how nu-soul will be viewed in a forum like ILM once it has obtained "classic" status...

Hippie.

ps. I like Maxwell and D'Angelo. Therefore they != Nu-soul.

you are swingbeat or have been related to swingbeat = you are not nu- soul.

d'angelo can fuck right off, the girlfriend-tempting tart.

(ps i love d'angelo and maxwell and they are both entirely nu-soul)

what about covering NIN then, smart guy? alicia keys live from the death factory.

Yeah but in ILM itself the relationship with the mainstream has generally been much more conflicted (which is what this thread has been about really).

i like present-day R&B *more* than 60s or 70s soul (though NOT more than early 50s R&B, which i think it has a lot more in common with, attitude and content-wise)

SOULIST!

classic!

I believe that ILM, as a whole, is either overlooking, hating baselessly, or being dumb and patronizing to almost all music created and consumed by most black people today.

The phrase by most black people is supposed to give the sentence moral authority that I don't think it earns. It implies "ILx should pay attention/pay respect to [x] because [y] does," something I don't buy at all. Just because [y] likes something, where [y] = black people, teenagers, boho-types, gay men, bloggers, etc. means little unless one is a historian or a self- avowed critiquer of everything under the sun. In fact, my mind recoils from the very idea, because in these arguments usually the [y] is in fact a gross simplification of [y].

I didn't realize that ILx all of a sudden had this great overarching responsibility to be a flawless mirror of the world of music. I also hadn't noticed any Outkast-bashing as of late: "Bombs Over Baghdad" won FGIII and "Ms. Jackson" came within a hairs' breadth of winning FGIV, right? As for a lot of the characterizations that have been offered of ILx, seriously or semi-seriously, I can only shrug -- I haven't really noticed any peculiar attitudes about black music on ILx as a whole. Then again, I miss a lot. I personally remember talking about it more back when Fred Solinger still posted here, because we both have roughly the same R&B background. Fred, where are you when we neeed yoooouuuu?!

One moment of personal affirmation: I'm not indie. I don't think I've ever been indie, except for that weird moment in my life when I was obssessed with Sebadoh.